This is a bigger problem in general with DMs who spend a lot of time planning combat encounters and then the players come with a clever way of avoiding it through illusion, enchantment, skills, strategies, what have you and the DM decides to shut the players down and railroad the party into the encounter anyway. My philosophy has always been that as a DM it’s your job to present encounters to the players. It’s not your job to worry about how players resolve those encounters.
Totally agree. To much emphasis is put are the encounters challenging enough. My motto is I'll get them next time if they do something clever and foil my encounters. (Not really) I do believe in rewarding clever players. Nerdarchist Dave
It's just bewildering to me that a DM would think about it that way. For me, if some player comes up with a clever way to sidestep an encounter, that's a _good_ thing. In particular, using illusions to change the way an NPC acts requires the player to think of the NPC as a _real creature or person,_ operating in a real world as opposed to a bag of HP and XP.
Here is the problem though: players don’t know what they like/want. Theyll do that a couple of times and become bored by the lack of action. I think there should be a mix.
@@squattingheads If the players are out thinking _every_ encounter, the DM needs to up their game. Players don't get bored of winning genuine victories. They get bored of meaningless encounters.
I've just started the Hoard of the Dragon Queen with a group of completely new players and have put larger groups of enemies in the way in the hopes that they try to avoid them and figure out that you don't have to charge in head first as they have done with all of the others so far. fights aren't the only way to "win"
In my first ever D&D game, way back in 2nd ed, I played a Gnome Illusionist. Going through a dungeon as party's do we came upon a room with an Owlbear that had yet to notice us. In a bit of cleverness I had the party drag out a table from a previous room and place it in front of the door overturned, then place several spears into it. I then turned said spiky table into our own trap by making it look like another Owlbear. Thus in a semi Wile E. Coyote fashion the Owlbear leaped at the illusion impaling itself.
Malek The Cursed Seeing animal like that is one of those where I can actually see an allusion not working very well because they could literally hear you through it because their part owl
Intelligence Check, not Saving Throw to emphasis the point. To an observer, an Illusion should be treated as something real unless that npc is given a reason to doubt its authenticity. For example: A thief spotted walking through an illusory wall may not reveal the illusion itself (there are spells that allow people to travel through stone after all), but it does give the observer enough doubt to investigate the wall to confirm the illusion.
Illusion as a school and a type of spell INFER permission form the DM without really needing it (see below). This is where the conflict begins. If a DM has decided that they do not buy into how illusions work because of personal reasons, then there's little that can be done aside from either ignoring illusions or finding another DM. The other half of the responsibility for this problem lay with players. Many plays bite off more than they can chew with an illusion, choosing to make their images/sounds either implausible or too intricate. A guard is likely not going to believe that you're "the king" when he put you behind bars yesterday, or that a Dragon instantly appeared out of thin air to soundlessly threaten him. It may be that the DM problem was spawned by the player problem. I dunno. The solution I have found for this is to read the spells carefully and use them in a plausible way. Make your images and sounds something that could reasonably fool the target in the moment. Keep them simple. This comes down to recognizing or "reading" your target and using something they might buy. Both of these might be sorted in a Session Zero conversation or something away from the table. This also comes down to knowing the spell. If your DM chooses to ignore Investigation checks where they are required, then the onus is on them. Otherwise, if the caster knows the target (or can reasonably construe that the target) is gullible/situationally vulnerable or not that bright, but has knowledge of a particular object or input that they can be fooled by, then the advantage should go to the cunning caster. Covering oneself in illusory boxes or barrels outside the back door of a tavern is a reasonable illusion. The caster might reasonably escape being chased so long as the pursuer did not see the generation of the illusion. It is fully plausible that an illusory wolf's howl in known werewolf territory might put guards at unease. Building the scene is key. Conjuring a burlap sack over the head of an ogre might work, as an Ogre isn't exactly bright and may well fail the first Investigation check anyway. Anything that buys a chance to escape is a good one. It may also buy your Rogue a one-time Advantage for a sneak attack. Play on your target's ASSUMPTIONS. What will they hand wave or fall for? If you doubt they'll fall for it, try something else. Read. The. Spell. Apply the Crawford rule: If the spell does not say it can, then it likely can't. However, if the spell also doesn't say it can't, then it might. Double negatives. I know. This means knowing the limitations of what cannot be done while squeezing every drop out of what can be. Know your illusions. Know what elements can be brought to bear. If your target has no eyes, then avoid visuals. If your target has blindsight, use audio illusions. If your target has tremor sense, a loud enough illusion close to the ground might generate vibrations. Tieflings have the advantage here as Thaumaturgy can cause tremors, which are a great way to mislead such creatures. If a creature has a strong sense, like hearing or smell, generate illusions that take advantage of that in an abusive way. Turn their advantage into their disadvantage. And remember that even IF you're an Illusionist, that Illusions are not your ONLY spell type. Mix up your illusions with real spells to keep your targets guessing. If you throw a REAL Fireball spell, what's the chance that your targets will believe the illusory one that follows? If you show that you can generate a Poison Spray a couple of times, they might believe the Cloudkill that's coming. Set up your con. There are illusion spells that are timeless and that have very strict interpretations as well. Invisibility, Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern and so on are go-to's for the Illusionist that a fair DM should leave well enough alone. Selling an illusion requires the right build. Yes, Intelligence is the key element to a Wizard build but do not ignore Charisma. A high Charisma, Deception and Performance build will help sell illusions to the unwary. A high Dexterity for Sleight of Hand wouldn't hurt either. If you doubt this, ask yourself why professional "illusionists" on our own stages are so successful. It's not just the craft - it's also their ability to sell it. In the end, Illusionists require a greater level of cunning and out-of-the-box thinking (shameless plug). They require knowing their limitations and also require the right build. Know the target. Know your DM. And be willing to negotiate.
Totally agree, great summary. As a DM, I love creative characters doing something clever with an illusion. My biggest headache is players wanting to go way beyond the limitations of the spell, especially Minor Illusion. Like you said: Read. The. Spell!
Note: a DM who cannot follow the rules specifically in the PHB that say they should be rooting for the players (paraphrasing), has no right to the title. A DM who auto-ignores illusions would get one or two post-session warnings from me before being dropped; it's 2020 people-there are plenty of dungeon masters who aren't garbage at the game and make it fun to play.
In the first few seconds of the video, the problem I heard wasn't with illusions, but a DM who simply doesn't separate what he knows from what his npcs know. This is a human flaw and I think every player and DM to some degree.
I've found this to be an increasingly growing trend with each new edition of D&D. Essentially you get the hard core boardgamers who ignore the narrative and role-playing entirely. That applies to players and DMs. Basically illusions only work if the NPCs act as narrative characters and not just like mindless chess pieces that exist only to kill PCs. But you get a boardgamer and they don't care about the descriptions at all, they just care about what's on the board and making the best move. You generally know you have this kind of DM when none of the monsters ever retreat or surrender.
As the DM my party had to rescue a small group of scouts that had become captured by a tribe of Bullywugs. They were on a timer as the scouts were being fed to a Froghemoth living in a deep section of the swamp near the tribe. Insted of fighting the tribe, my great old one patron warlock used Prestidigitation to create three froghemoth eyes sticking out of the water and Awakend Mind to telepathically trick the Bullywugs into thinking the Froghemoth was speaking to them, telling the tribe leaders not to sacrifice anymore Humans and let them go, as they tasted horrible and to feed it more Bullywugs because they tasted better. The Bullywugs being rather dim-witted obliged the orders of their "master". The warlock took what was supposed to be a pretty long fight through a tribe ending in an escape from a Froghemoth and by using trickery -- saved all of the scouts without having to enter combat once. The session ended shorter than expected but man it was such a clever move I was impressed (this was from a very new player to D&D by the way so everyone applauded the idea). The rolls were also in her favor but I will try to always allow players who put such thought into their plans a fudged roll here and there, it's what makes it fun!
@AmishRiot True -- the only reason I gave it to them was because she just wanted to make the eyes. Not the stalks or an entire froghemoth, but just the eyes sitting kind of on top of the water to give the illusion that the creature had gotten closer to the tribe just barely peeking out of the water. The way I interpreted the rules was you can make a trinket or image that can fit in your hand and you can have three effects running at once. I'm not sure what the actual size of a froghemoth eye is but the fact that the player wanted to make three eyes floating right over the water and was within 10 feet, I gave it to them.
@@jordanskittlethorpe6792 Hmm, the only mechanical issue I see with this is the precise wording of Prestidigitation. You can create a (single) trinket or image that fits in your hand and lasts until your next turn. That's about 6 seconds. You can have 3 effects from 3 separate castings running at the same time, which takes 3 rounds to set up. So mechanically this doesn't actually work. Still, for such a creative solution, I can see why you'd waive it. And warlocks, as deceptive as they are, really don't get many options in the illusion department, so it wouldn't even make sense to require a different spell in this case. Plus, I've always heard Prestidigitation described as the spell that can make nearly any small effect happen. There is a reason it's recommended for all arcane casters.
@@onedankind8168 Yes, the turn system is often ignored outside of combat. Some people expand it to 10 minute intervals, and others ignore turns completely. But the spell description still provides some mechanical doubts as to the ability of the spell to generate 3 different images before the first one expires.
@@Nurk0m0rath Yeah I understand that. It's too bad spells like that didn't have more written in flexibility especially for higher levels. Just so people don't have to feel like they need to rule lawyer it. I'm a fan of being pretty strict with a lot of the descriptions and rules. Mostly because some players take feats or great efforts to get abilities for their characters. To just hand them out for free can really disappoint people. But you gotta admit that was a pretty cool use for Prestidigitiaiamathing.
If as a DM you are against illusions, that's fine. But inform your players ahead of time so they don't build an illusion based character. It's no fun for anyone if the party is gimped by your arbitrary decisions they had no way to anticipate. If, as a player, you want to play an illusionist or anything relying on interactions not EXPLICITLY in the rules it is YOUR responsibility to check with the DM that the universe functions the way you think it should.
i think i'd argue that a monster with normal sight and also blindsight or tremorsense would still be confused by the illusion, since it sees something but the information it's receiving isn't matching up. they might have an easier time determining that it's an illusion, but it would still confuse them
I had a warlock use minor illusion on a goblin horde. He had them believe that the goblins saw gold. He acted it out so good, I HAD see it through. Rolled for the goblins and they lost. It was an incredible story element of seeing goblins hypnotized by this illusion just to be killed by the players.
@@deirakos depends on the party comp, and it's possible the goblins were surprised by the rest of the group. Sleep, thunderwave and burning hands spells wreck goblins.
I've had the problem myself. A dm at my West matches style game, just immediately moved an enemy through my illusion and then just ignored whatever I did. In my own game I sent my players into an illusion dungeon, none of them made the investigation. All the walls were fake, I had real monsters in it though, ghosts of course.
Damn, that sucks for that first part. If I was in that situation and it happened more than once or twice, I'd make it a point to rudely leave the session and bluntly inform the DM that if he was going to be a dick, then so could I. It's a game, after all, meant for fun. It's no fun whenever the DM is shit.
This is pretty much one of the exact reasons phantasmal force is one of my favourite illusion spells. While it only affects the single target, you have pretty free reign with what you can make appear, and due to it being solely in the victims mind it can get around stuff like tremorsense.
But manifesting that gargantuan creature in a small space is completely legitimate. Why that 20 ton flying lizard that is 40 feet tall definitely walked through a 4x6 foot pair of doors. As a DM I have to remind my players at least once a campaign that illusions need to be plausible not to trigger an investigation check. You want a good distraction in a city project a shrieking child's voice into the nearby well. Being pursued by bandits in a forest at night, well light up bushes with sets of glowing eyes accompanied by the snarling of vicious wildlife.
@@MrAranak There's a difference between "oh look the Tarrasque appeared in this 4x4 cell" and "oh there's an extra 'cell' in this cell block". If you are a DM and have monsters just completely ignore illusions, then you don't know how to play D&D. Point. Blank. It's 2020, there's an entire Internet filled with ideas, rules, suggestions, and more that can be accessed. If you don't tell your illusionist-controlling players that illusions do not work in your campaign setting until when it arises in a session, you are the WORST type of DM.
This is why I love the warlock so much. The fact that you can at will create a 15 foot cube illusion that can move and look natural is incredible especially when you can also change how you look every six seconds for free. You could walk around an entire city and never be the same person twice. If you took the keen mind feat( weird for warlocks i know) you could perfectly memorize the visual appearance of every citizen you come by so you have a nearly endless repertoire of disguises to choose from. Also, hex lasts for one hour and nothing says the targets know they’ve been hexed. So you can hit their wisdom to give disadvantage on perception if you’re planning on sneaking in somewhere or insight if you need to talk your way out of something. Hit their intelligence if you think they might know something about illusions and want to make sure they don’t discover your ploy. It’s fantastic
The way I see it. I would only do an initial Int. check if the Passive Perception is higher than the spell save and even then they would still have to succeed the second check to actually realize it is an illusion
justBinia yeah I know but I figure they wouldn’t even think to make that check unless they physically interact with it or notice that something about it seems off. Hence the Wisdom check kind of deal. I think that seems fair.
I saw in another video that changed my whole perspective on illusion magic. Is that it only seems enemies look and investigate illusions when there is a player who builds their character around it, but when that isn't a character the enemies never assume anything is an illusion. Meaning I have never seen an NPC/Enemy walk over to a real Wall Of Fire thinking it's just an illusion.
Well i played an illusion bard talked to my dm before we started the campaign and he was open to it and was willing to work with me... So i put a lot into Cha and Int made sure he was always reading books about monsters etc. I had 2 cool moments with him in 9 lvls... Because most off the things he just didnt wanna play in to and just let it pass.. But the 2 times it did work it was awesome! stopped a rebellion / coupe on the kingdom because off major image 'summoning' a young blue dragon people where to busy with running away for them to focus on the dethroning. *did stop playing the bard tho because off after talking to the dm 6 times about it nothing changed... So he stopped adventuring and opend a newbar after his moms bar got destroyed.
Many years ago I was at a convention and scheduled to run a 3E game. When I show up, no one had signed up for my game but there was another game at a nearby table and the DM asked me to join their group. Of course this adventure had pregen characters and the DM was like "I'm sorry. All I have left is this illusionist character". Me: "Great! No problem!". During the adventure we were trying to protect this camp from being overrun by a multitude of goblins who had to cross a bridge. I asked to find a place where I could see the bridge and had someone "hide me" from sight with some clever camouflage. I then had them remove the crosspieces of the bridge and soak the remaining timbers with all the oil we had - with more toward the far side. As they removed the crosspieces, I used illusion magic to replace them. When the attack came and hundreds of goblins poured down the hill toward the bridge, the first ones ran right out on the bridge and immediately felt the effects of gravity. I then had them light the bridge on fire from our side as goblins began to shimmy across the support beams. This caused the ones on the bridge to catch fire and the heat was felt by the nearest goblins. I then had illusionary tendrils of fire reach out and set some of the closer ones on fire. I had a good DM who agreed that all my actions made it plausible that the goblins would think it was real fire and were routed for the most part. That our party was picking off goblins with ranged attacks helped as well. Afterward many of the players said they had never seen an illusionist played so well. It all stems from a 1E article I read that said that for a player (or monster) to disbelieve an illusion, there had to be a reason for that disbelief. After several goblins had plummeted to there death - including some that were pretty sure there wasn't a bridge there anymore but were pushed by the masses behind them - they stopped as they had a reason too. If you make the illusion believable then until the opponent has a reason to disbelieve, they should treat the illusion as real. And yes, the dragon appearing out of nowhere is most likely not believable - unless that particular area is visited by a dragon on a regular basis.
Iv seen a DM run a npc warrior that closes its eyes to hit a player with mirror image, because mirror image only effects creatures that rely on sight and disadvantage is a higher chance to hit than 1/3 your hit chance. That felt so cheep
I write down what I met and fought, how often and notes so my illusions are realistic if I fought drow elves twenty times then tend to look good over a dragon kind I never met.
I was walking out the front door of a mansion with a sack of gold I just pilfered from the safe when basically the entire guard garrison show up, I used mislead sending my illusion to run one way while I snuck out back.
BBEG has True Sight. Illusionist Wizard immediately becomes Counterspeller and Teleport Taxi of the Party because his whole shtick is now useless. EDIT: I just reached the point where you pulled out the FACTS (Blindsight, Tremorsense, True Sight). It's even worse than I thought. I swear on my honour as DM, if someone ever wants to play an Illusionist Wizard in one of my games I will cut that amount in half. At least.
Grater Good I played one which was a lot of fun as we only went to like level 7 so most enemies didn’t have counters to it. At high level I’d prolly have been shut down hard. I did have fun however coming up with creative ways to use them offensively to give our PCs an advantage. I do suggest talking with gm if you want to do this. Currently in Pathfinder you don’t automatically get a check to see through an illusion. You have to “interact” with it first. Depending what the gm considers “interacting” it might be bad. Our gm was nice about it however.
Grater Good You also have to remember the amount of animals that have extra sensory abilities beyond just that like really good hearing for Owl bears. Super good sense of smell like bears and T Rexes and Ultraviolet site or infrared like various types of snakes and birds
I remember playing a half-elven bard in 2nd edition, who specialized in illusions. In-game, she kept a journal with intricate drawings and accompanying notes on the behaviour of any kind of monster the party encountered. As a player, I kept a notebook with notes on the monster types encountered, and any relevant notes. Then the character would study the journal every evening, for use in relevant situations. This made my DM pay attention. I also always made a point of intently studying the critters after combat, making note of how they died. Very much fun. Probably one of the more intense characters I have ever played. (back in 1991/92, I think)
My favourite use of illusion magic in a game is as follows. I got given (I say given...I’m cutting a long story short lol) a faerie dragon companion who likes to use illusions to pull pranks on people and enemies. Not too long ago, she managed to create a Minor Illusion of a fly to hover in front the last orc in our encounter, who just so happened to be the leader of the group and the only one with a greataxe. The orc rolled to see if it noticed the illusion and got a total of 0. It attempted to strike the fly with the greataxe, rolled max damage and managed to decapitate itself.
But minor illusion is a static image with no sound (unless sound is chosen, in which case theirs no image). Even an orc, a creature with animal like instincts, wouldn't immediately believe a static, non-buzzing fly...
JustMonica I’d agree, which is why I think our DM did an INT roll, which resulted in a 0, thus it was fooled :) My initial idea was just to annoy it. It just got so annoyed that it decided to kill itself 🤷🏽♂️
I always keep of list of NPCs and creatures I encounter, so that I can make a convincing illusion if I need it. If you've encountered a zombie, a beholder or a mind flayer before, the illusion is much more convincing than if you have to create one by hearing it described by word of mouth or a picture in a book.
(3.5) We defeated the juvenile/young adult (can't recall which) Black Dragon in Forge of Fury with illusions and Web. we made all the water and the air above look like it was covered in Web (like the spell) so it wouldn't really try to escape/use the water to hide and murder us. Than we woke it up by actually casting Web and simultaneously hitting it with a couple tangelfoot bags. Our CN cleric had a couple skeleton archers and a with a few unlucky rolls on the DM's part, we bagged ourselves a Black Dragon (about the size of a horse, if i recall correctly). Really, those rolls saved us, or else it would of acid blasted our whole party to death.
Illusions are fun, but difficult to sort out if you are trying to figure out what is supposed to happen. Our table finds that they are more fun when you can roll with it and take them at face value. As an expectation, we figure that an illusion spell would almost always burn an action when it is being investigated or attacked by an enemy. We’ve had illusory walls that hid other hallways in dungeons. A manticore fly out to threaten the party and provide cover for archers during a tower siege (major image doesn’t move the air around and a friendly flying sword was really confused when it was commanded to attack the manticore). An illusory version of fog cloud during an intense fight, so it was interacted with, but we decided that unless the bandits cared to actually check we let it pass because they were more focused on staying alive than noticing fog condense on their armor. We gave out a magic item of illusion spells that could be used once a day by drawing a card. Which, has kept me on my toes as a DM.
Coolest thing we ever did with an illusion was win a combat encounter against a tribe of 40 lizard men, we had just killed the black dragon they were worshipping, attempting to escape the swamp, the DM had prepped a whole chase with loads of skill checks for us to get away, my bard snuck over to them alone, and major imaged a ferocious gold dragon sweeping over head, being ridden by the group and bearing the group's symbol. The illusory dragon herded the lizard men with some fire breath, and told them to return to their homes or they would see their whole village burn. The lizard men left, and the DM was really good about having to not use everything he had prepped. Just shrugged and said "fucking bards" had some really good RP the rest of the session
I often find it isn't that the DM is a jerk or even not wanting their plots foiled easily... it is they are inexperienced. This causes issues that the DM isn't able to quickly role play NPC reasons to illusions, they are fearful they will make a mistake (which then allows the PCs to abuse the game for the rest of the campaign), or it is just too much effort. It is hard to think on the spot, especially if you have never encountered that situation before. It is also hard for DMs not to have an initial picture in their minds and role play that... rather than something more random or what the players were hoping for. I generally treat illusions by imagining a worst (typical) case and a best (typical) case in terms of effectiveness. In the case of guards, they know that they were chasing the PCs and now there is a dead end. Worse case (for the PCs) is they assume there is an illusionary wall and stop their movement for a round and each touch wall until they feel through it. Best case (for the PCs) is maybe that the guards assume that the PCs are invisible or something and slowly advance swinging at the air for a few rounds, then search for few rounds. So... give a (group) intelligence check and give them give them 1 to 5 rounds of wasted time based how well they did. If the PCs do something imaginative... maybe disadvantage on the roll. If it is obvious (say the guards do know this alley) then give advantage on the check. I find this a reasonably quick way to adjudicate basic illusions without too much risk of making a mistake.
Had a mini arc for my players to stop a wizard from call in a kraken to destroy a town turned out he was only making illusions and having goons kidnap people and making it look like he could call up lovecraft monsters
Nice! I might have to use that some time, I love tricking the players with a good misdirection. "Pay no attention to that doppelganger behind the curtain..." :P
Alot of what helped was reskining a few spells to look more eldritch like I did spiritual weapon but instead it was a floating worm monster cause he found ways to make spells look different threw adding illustration tricks into the casting
@@ultimowtmage8181 Some spells don't even need reskinned, either... An awful lot of spells have in their text that some of the non-mechanical effects (visuals, sound, etc) are personal to the caster- Spirit Guardians is a perfect example, but it can extend to plenty of others. I had a player running a Monk with some splashed levels of Wizard; for flavor she wanted her Magic Missiles (the only spell she really cast, lol) to be glowing blue fists that made a lightsaber noise while flying through the air, made of her "chi" (not actually using Ki Points; purely her choice of in-game description of her spell casting.) I saw no reason *not* to let her, since it only affected the game ambiance and nothing mechanical. Heh... I later "borrowed" the idea with a Rogue/Warlock I played, having his Eldritch Blasts look like ghostly daggers because it seemed to fit this style.
My DM actually let me summon chains around a roc as an illusion and failed it's save and fell to the ground thinking it could t fly because of the chains
I had a Monk (Way of Shadow) / Wizard (illusion) that would pretty much never stop using minor illusion. My favorite moment with it, was walking into town and for reasons I can't remember, we decided to make a show of strength. So my character raised his hand high in the air, and created a 5 foot ball of fire. Then switched it to lightning, then poison, and so on. The "villagers" were terrified.
I was being chased by town guards in a scene very like what they discuss once, I dipped down an alley and made the illusion of a garbage can to hide inside. After the guards ran by, I went back the way they came.
I once ised Minor Illusion to mimic the sound of rocks falling, and Silent Image to make it look like the cave collapsed while we escaped from some Kobolds. I also illusioned some Caltrops on the ground in front of a door to slow those same Kobolds down while they tried not to step on them. And I have a character who reactively casts Minor Illusion to hide in a barrel to escape danger.
Came upon this vid while researching in preparation for a soon to start campaign! What really needs to be key is communication with your DM about your character's ethos and how they'll be using thier illusion magic so that they can take that into account. To that end, my new illusionist character is a pacifist who is very murder averse. So I've made it very clear with my DM that I plan to have my character act thusly, especially with her illusions. And happily, the DM appears to be relishing that challenge.
This is one reason I almost never change the roll as a DM. I find general chance creates great moments either good or bad. So like for a guard in a city they know maybe I give them advantage to remember there is no wall there and make the investigation check, but mostly its just good fun to give players a fair shake. It makes up for the times when I accidentally put something too challenging in their way and the PCs almost die. Or the PC rolls three 1s in a row when attacking. Players already get bad luck.
I used illusory terrain once to prevent a defective juvenile Remhoraz that was born incapable of protecting itself from extreme temperatures from escaping the circus and rampaging by making it look like it was surrounded by a ring of lava/fire
My group just wrapped up our campaign and I'm really in the mood to play an illusionist wizard but we're doing decent into avernus, hopefully I get to play one soon
I used a lot of illusions in that campaign. Only highest lvl enemies have true sight, but regular cultists, devils and demons can be tricked with right illusions.
Illusions are the creative casters of the D&D universe. They encourage thoughtful, creative play. If the caster keeps making outrageous illusions (like a red dragon in a cemetery, or an Iron Golem floating in the air) then the enemy shouldn't be easily fooled. However, if you cast a good illusion appropriate to the setting then the DM should award creative thinking. If players aren't rewarded for creative play every game becomes Murderhobo-ville.
The problem with illusions in dnd is at the same level as the problem with guards in Skyrim, for example. You can create the most clever illusion of all time, but in the end, the DM choose to give npcs omniscience and all of them start investigating everything around like paranoids. It's exactly like when you play Skyrim and you are a master ninja with 100 sneak and all guards can detect you, even through walls. Oh, you killed one random guy outside town over 10km away? Nope, the guards know that, and they gonna kill you. The problem with illusions are not the spells or the rules; it's a childish DM who never want to loose.
My parties tended to stack certain illusions, transmutations, and abjuration spells on top of real terrian changes. It worked 7/10 times. It's all about what kicks off when and in what order to make real area changes.
I know now that this is not how the spell works but I did not then. So my Dragonborn sorcerer was a noble that’s home was favourable to monsters and would let them live there so when we came across a goblin encampment that we was to big for us to take we were level 1-2 so I cast minor illusion to project an image of myself to do a very charismatic speech to them to join my nation that long story short got me a small army of goblins although didn’t get the bugbear
Regarding tremor sense. Tremors are simply sound vibrations in a solid. Therefore one could create the illusion of tremors in the ground. The spell does not say it requires line of sight, just within range, so vibrating the ground as if someone was walking on it, would work. For blindsight, if it functions by sound, such as echolocation, you could argue you made sounds, matching that of the creature, to trick it's senses into perceiving an object there. Now creatures such as bats still have vision, so they would likely note something is wrong, one sense detects it, another doesnt. But it could be something hidden? With no knowledge of magic, I presume it would cause confusion for the creature, and it's actions may be unpredictable. Maybe it goes after the illusion, maybe it stops to study it briefly, using it's action, and notes one sense is being fooled.
I find it interesting if you have an illusion that allows you to cast spells through it. so something that uses tremor sense or something similar can't see it so its like casting spells while being invisible.
As a dm in your example I would probably decide that even if the guards know the city that well Suddenly being presented with this illusionary wall would probably cause hesitation in the front row and give more time for escape or ambush.
My two favorite illusion tricks 1) Mixing illusions with more "real" magic. Lvl 5 wizard casts Fireball on round 1 and says it was a warning shot. Round 2 - the wizard casts Silent Image of a fireball, that is 10 times bigger then the last one, making half of the enemies to run away. Or make them think you can only cast illusions and then start to summon greater demons and stuff. 2) Using warlock with unlimited Disguise Self + Actor.
I always like jumping to the idea of creating illusionary hazards like giant spikes, pillars of flame, pools of green fantasy acid, and of course walls. As soon as the guard tries to fight the illusory warrior, he knows it's fake. But he isn't going to try stabbing the five foot diameter pillar of flame. I also tend to remark that illusion magic is like the low level version of the Wish spell. You can recreate any magical effect you want but it's illusionary. A big display of flashy magical effects might intimidate enemies and npcs. Or if they know what a Fireball looks like and you fire a "warning shot" off to the side. If it's known that you don't walk through rainbow colored effects (Prismatic Wall for example) you can deter enemies by making a fake rainbow wall.
I think every DM should be forced to run an Illusionist in 3 campaigns before DMing for a player running an Illusionist. This comes under the heading "I shall not criticized by brother until I have walked a mile in his moccasins"
How about the illusions of the feeling of spiders crawling on you, the smell of a nearby fire that isn't really there, or the sounds of distant screaming? Sight is just one sensation to fool. Though if you're going with visual, another fun way to use it is to throw in some truth: turn around a corner and make it look like the wall stops shorter than it really does so whoever's chasing you just runs face first into it (can also do this with a door showing open), displace the image of a pit trap, escape into the woods and blend your escape path with the thicket.
This seems like it will be verry relivent to my forest-gnome archane-trickster graphiti-artest. - My diviner, on the other hand, plans to take minor-illution, but for visual communication, rather than trickery.
In a campaign i play Illusionist vs a vampire: Illusionist make a sphere shaped flowing water illusion, the vampire passeri trough It telling "i know Is an illusion, i can FEEL of Is real water" no dice rolled, no check made, simply a waste of effort...
Way late on this. But in an Underdark campaign my Sorcerer-Rogue has a druid who had a great tendency to be a giant spider and summon spiders, and is all around a touch creepy. (we all are really.) The DM pulled a great "Didn't Actually die" moment where we pushed a guy into some webs to sprint for our lives ourselves but we never SAW him die. He's popped back up surrounded by bodies and is lookin to kill us. And I'm going to hopefully hit this man with some illusory webs and very real darkness, and let the druid surround him as I whisper nonsense inside his head.
Late to the party I know, but investigating illusions for future DMing. Great discussions and ideas on here. To me there are several aspects to how much should be doable with illusions: Firstly, illusion magic is very cool and clever uses should totally lead to great moments and successes for the players. Secondly, it needs to add to the cooperative story the game is telling and work for the style. Finally, it is the most versatile of magics and spellcasters are already incredibly potent in 5e. If every situation is being dominated (both social and combat) by a clever illusionist it *can* make the game frustrating for the rest of the group. This may need to be addressed and discussed how to balance. I think illusions are one aspect of the game that really needs ironing out before play starts.
I let a player use minor illusion to create a fake bombing as a distraction during a chase and it worked. A later illusion failed to provide cover because he cast it right in front of himself and the alchemist tried to destroy the cover with acid. I try to give a more inspired use of minor illusion or one using a levelled spell more weight. I also try to remember what higher level spells can do. If you're casting minor illusion and describing the effects of Major Image, I'll ask which part of that you're doing with Minor illusion, and how you plan to make the rest happen. That might make you use the appropriate spell, or it might prompt collaboration with other characters to create an effect greater than the sum of the parts.
Players won't be excitedly retelling the story of how none of their spells work. They'll be complaining about the DM. The player(s) will get frustrated and either: stop showing up, become problem players in their attempts to overcome the roadblocks created by DM.
A wall is a good example of the problem with illusions. Party is hiding behind a wall created by illusion spell. A creature not realizing it is an illusion may not see through (and see people behind). But what about creatures knowing the wall is an illusion? Do they suddenly get 'x-ray' vision and see clearly throught it? Can be problematic in ranged firefights, one side sees other, the other does not. If you are messing with creature's mind is another story, but that is targeting a specific creature. In this case scenarios above are totally plausible. General illusion spells (most notably Minor illusion) are very broad and can easily step into conjuration school, partly even enchantment.
I once was dming a group that ran into a bunch of orcs my brother who was a player in that group had created a wall of fire that messed up a lot of them then used an illusion to create another wall of fire even though wouldn't do damage they definitely were not going to go through that again
My personal ruling is even if something has truesight or whatever, if the player is creative enough with how they construct their illusion, it's going to do *something* for at least one round of combat, or a couple seconds of narrative. Might not be what they intended, but it's something.
One time, our party was attacked by a hellcat in a brightly-lit room. (Hellcats are invisible in bright light.) So after casting Protection from Evil on everyone, I used Silent Image to create an image of a giant parasol that blocked the light, enabling the melee characters to put it down. I have kind of mixed feelings about this. Since "things can pass through" it, and since those who disbelieve it can see through it, then it probably shouldn't block light, from a logical standpoint. If you cast an illusion on a torch, then it wouldn't change the light level in the room, but people wouldn't be able to see the flame itself until they disbelieved the illusion. It would only _appear_ to block the light from the perspective of someone who glances at it without examining it too closely. On the other hand, I'm kind of proud of that battle, because my creative use of the spell ended up saving the day.
It would be an int check. Most illusions state that it requires an int check to dicern illusions. Also remembering things is tied to int which would be applicable since the guards have to remember if there ususally was a wall there
@@deirakos my tae on the whole investigation to see through an illusion is that the person who is making the check would have to have a reason to suspect that something is an illusion. For example, if you add a barel onto a stack of barrels, then unless the individual is very familiar with those barrels then I wouldn't give them the investigation check due to there being no reason for them to suspect it's an illusion.
If you know that someone has true sight, you can use illusions to make them dropp their guard. If you summon an illusion of a dragon, and he sees through it, he won't think you're a threat and you can stab him in the back.
had a DM who just never seemed to get how illusion worked. hide in the shadows and create an illusion of a thief or intruder stumbling into the secretive group commiting a crime (creating a witness they don't want) and then have it look like it's trying to escape... 'They ignore it and go back to what they were doing'... because with meta knowledge it wasn't a character, it didn't matter. Create illusory boulders to hide behind, 'it knows the boulder wasn't there before so it doesn't work' the monster sees through it and targets the person behind it... sigh, I just let him kill the character and played something else.
The Barbarian Goliath received a cursed axe that make her attack the nearest person fater taking damage, including party member. Me, eldritch knight tell the party to run as i take a defensive position the first round to allow the party to escape while she swing at me. I create an illusion of a wooden box around me and i write on the box "the orange". The DM look at me, smile and say you sneaky snake (metal gear reference for those who dont get it)
In AD&D, Illusions were useful especially for an Illusionist , in 5E not so much! I had a Gnome Illusionist that among his illusions were Magic Missile, Fireball, 2 Centaurs with lances charging and many other things and each had a phrase associated with it, to inform the other party members what i was using.
My go to strategy with illusions is to use them to replicate other spells that I can cast to control the battlefield. Is that the darkness spell or a silent image? Is that cloud kill spell really there or is that Chris being tricky again? The only way the enemy is going to know is if they barge into it and find out. And I had a problem DM like that, and instead of saying “I cast a silent of a cloud kill spell” I say “My character says that he casts cloud kill” and the DM will figure out if it’s an illusion when his monsters follow the damn rules for seeing through illusions!
@@CallenExile I don't remember any saving throws back then, just the act or touch of disbelief. We were fried by a flying dragon for several rounds before someone figured it out.
While I don't really see monsters having the ability to legitimately see through as illusion as being a "problem" I certainly see the "DM knowledge" issue as being a huge one. And it's not as easy as telling the DM not to do that since they may not even be doing it consciously. So I think one way to fix this is to change the default way illusions are perceived: Illusions should be automatically believed unless there is a specific reason for them not to be. And it doesn't really matter very much how "absurd" they are. That's because many illusions aren't really any more absurd than other kinds of magic. For example to a typical onlooker how would you tell an illusionary monster from a conjured one? And even if you did something that cannot be done with spells in the PHB how would a typical monster know that? Did they basically just get the equivalent of a 25 on an Arcana check for free? Now of course because RAW requires an action to be used to see through an illusion this can be a little bit harsh. But common sense and some free rolls can be used to offset this a little bit (which is what people do anyway but they go a bit overboard). And I would also rule that these only let you know that something is an illusion and you would still need to spend your action and pass that check in order to see through it. So for example if an arcane trickster conjures a box to hide behind in combat the default position is that the enemies consider the box real until they have good reason not to (for example if the rogue starts firing arrows through it). Even though there was obviously no box there before. That's because unless they some kind of arcane knowledge they wouldn't really have any way to know that spellcasters can't really do that. Now bear in mind that a spellcaster seeing someone cast an illusion spell - especially one that they themselves know! - would likely see through the ruse. But even if they yell "Hey everybody that box is just an illusion! Don't fall for it!" guess what? That illusionary box is still opaque until they use their action to try to see through it! Anyway this is just one way to look at it and only one aspect of it. And changing one part of the equation changes others, in this case the action economy, skills, etc involved in defeating an illusion. But I think this is a good start.
How would you rule using silent image in combat. I tried to use it to create fog that would protect me, an arcane trickster, and my friend, a warlock. DM rules that any physical interaction with the fog dispels the illusion. It’s my first time playing dnd and I don’t quite know the rules yet. I feel like enemies should have to do the investigation check to see through it. Right now it feels like I am wasting a spell slot and an action for a bonus to stealth rolls.
Depends on the circustances. Once an enemy interacts with it they'd realize it isn't real. I'd allow to work until point of contact or once you've taken advantage of the illusion at least once. Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy follow up question. If an enemy know I’m in an illusion. Ex archers are shooting me so I use silent image to obscure myself. Would you let the archers attack into the illusion (with disadvantage) from range without rolling the investigation save?
You can't fool all the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people some of the time. Find the weak link and exploit that weak spot with shrewd illusions. It's best they don't know you're an illusionist at all.
Illusions are sub par with most DMs, but when you get to 14, you break the game with Illusory Reality, especially coupled with Mirage Arcanum. A mile with structures specified as possible, then make it real. Dragon? Nope, now he he’s in an iron cylinder. 3 dragons? Iron cylinder. 300 ft chasm? Nope. Now there’s a bridge. #win
Guys, I've watched you guys for a while now and I'm starting to see a deterioration. You essentially spent 10 minutes rehashing things you've said throughout other videos. My suggestion is stick to the new classes and such, stick to cool build discussions, helpful tips, and spell assistance. Rule explanations as well. Maybe start a series where you go back to doing discussions over monsters like you did in the past. Even with this topic you guys could have gone with a discussion of how to craft cool illusions that fot the spell rulings mechanically so you can convince a harsh DM, or go extravagant with new ideas and examples for the more lenient DM. I say this as a fan who wants you to succeed, and lately your views and likes have plummeted
Hiding your friend in a Minor Illusion cardboard box like he's Solid Snake doesn't really work if the guard captain you're trying to persuade to go elsewhere can just "sense" that you're concentrating on a spell. Apparently anyone can learn to sense magic in the DM's homebrew setting, it was just unlucky that I, the only caster, was the only one who wasn't told about this mechanic before the session started. Kinda bullshit in my opinion, because that's what Detect Magic does, but sometimes ya just gotta deal.
I actually prefer enchantment magic over illusion magic as why would you hide from an enemy when you can make them passive towards you though I will admit using illusion, and enchantment spells together creates the best effects if your DM is a stickler for that kind of thing then you need to find a new DM as a DM who is in it for the power trip is going to have problems eventually so you can either cause those problems or get out of dodge before that happens
I personally love teaching bad DM's a lesson, and I have rejoined a DM's group more than once when they told me their sorry. However, I made sure that he knew that I would continue to test them as a DM, and that if they could get through it all they would have more than my respect. I also love dealing with problem players for example when a rogue goes stealing from the party my paladin will ask to see everyones coins at the market which usually puts the target on the rogue yes it is somewhat meta gaming, however, I do this when meta gaming or not because it is useful to know how much money your companions have.
The most enraging thing as an Illusion player is the DM who says YES to what you try to do, but then ignores the effects completely, so basically you're spending your actions and not having any impact on the game. Talk with your players and explain why they can't do it. If a player doesn't understand the rules for illusions at the table, they will either keep trying to do things the DM doesn't allow, or will simply stop using illusions completely, which means now half of the spells in their build are pointless. Either way, it hurts their enjoyment of the game
I'm an OLD SCHOOL DM who started with an Illusionist character and then throughout the 1990s as a DM worked illusions into nearly everything. I even had one player so skittish that he would go around like a blind man wacking e everything with a stick to make sure the objects was a REAL thing. This is one person who KNOWS how to use and deal with illusions. And those guards who suddenly turn the corner and saw that Illusionary wall - Well they would have to touch it to find out that IT'S FAKE thus giving the PCs some time to get away. Those illusions are used more to SLOW down the enemy than to FOOL them into believing it's real.
Links from Video
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Campfire Technologies - bit.ly/CampfireTechnology
Nerdarchy can you guys talk about how to make an elemental patron warlock?
a ranger and wizard (illusionists)
I like i 🤔
This is a bigger problem in general with DMs who spend a lot of time planning combat encounters and then the players come with a clever way of avoiding it through illusion, enchantment, skills, strategies, what have you and the DM decides to shut the players down and railroad the party into the encounter anyway. My philosophy has always been that as a DM it’s your job to present encounters to the players. It’s not your job to worry about how players resolve those encounters.
Totally agree. To much emphasis is put are the encounters challenging enough. My motto is I'll get them next time if they do something clever and foil my encounters. (Not really) I do believe in rewarding clever players.
Nerdarchist Dave
It's just bewildering to me that a DM would think about it that way. For me, if some player comes up with a clever way to sidestep an encounter, that's a _good_ thing. In particular, using illusions to change the way an NPC acts requires the player to think of the NPC as a _real creature or person,_ operating in a real world as opposed to a bag of HP and XP.
Here is the problem though: players don’t know what they like/want. Theyll do that a couple of times and become bored by the lack of action. I think there should be a mix.
@@squattingheads If the players are out thinking _every_ encounter, the DM needs to up their game. Players don't get bored of winning genuine victories. They get bored of meaningless encounters.
I've just started the Hoard of the Dragon Queen with a group of completely new players and have put larger groups of enemies in the way in the hopes that they try to avoid them and figure out that you don't have to charge in head first as they have done with all of the others so far. fights aren't the only way to "win"
In my first ever D&D game, way back in 2nd ed, I played a Gnome Illusionist. Going through a dungeon as party's do we came upon a room with an Owlbear that had yet to notice us. In a bit of cleverness I had the party drag out a table from a previous room and place it in front of the door overturned, then place several spears into it. I then turned said spiky table into our own trap by making it look like another Owlbear. Thus in a semi Wile E. Coyote fashion the Owlbear leaped at the illusion impaling itself.
Malek The Cursed Seeing animal like that is one of those where I can actually see an allusion not working very well because they could literally hear you through it because their part owl
@@charlottewalnut3118 Are you not familiar with a thing called "investigation"?
There is a built in mechanic for NPCs interacting with illusions. When a DM ignores an illusion, they really are being a jerk.
@Матвей Виканов
They have to make an intelligence check
Intelligence Check, not Saving Throw to emphasis the point. To an observer, an Illusion should be treated as something real unless that npc is given a reason to doubt its authenticity.
For example: A thief spotted walking through an illusory wall may not reveal the illusion itself (there are spells that allow people to travel through stone after all), but it does give the observer enough doubt to investigate the wall to confirm the illusion.
I had a player make an illusionary bridge across a small chasm. ... Solved that encounter quick.
Illusion as a school and a type of spell INFER permission form the DM without really needing it (see below). This is where the conflict begins. If a DM has decided that they do not buy into how illusions work because of personal reasons, then there's little that can be done aside from either ignoring illusions or finding another DM.
The other half of the responsibility for this problem lay with players. Many plays bite off more than they can chew with an illusion, choosing to make their images/sounds either implausible or too intricate. A guard is likely not going to believe that you're "the king" when he put you behind bars yesterday, or that a Dragon instantly appeared out of thin air to soundlessly threaten him.
It may be that the DM problem was spawned by the player problem. I dunno. The solution I have found for this is to read the spells carefully and use them in a plausible way. Make your images and sounds something that could reasonably fool the target in the moment. Keep them simple. This comes down to recognizing or "reading" your target and using something they might buy.
Both of these might be sorted in a Session Zero conversation or something away from the table.
This also comes down to knowing the spell. If your DM chooses to ignore Investigation checks where they are required, then the onus is on them. Otherwise, if the caster knows the target (or can reasonably construe that the target) is gullible/situationally vulnerable or not that bright, but has knowledge of a particular object or input that they can be fooled by, then the advantage should go to the cunning caster. Covering oneself in illusory boxes or barrels outside the back door of a tavern is a reasonable illusion. The caster might reasonably escape being chased so long as the pursuer did not see the generation of the illusion.
It is fully plausible that an illusory wolf's howl in known werewolf territory might put guards at unease. Building the scene is key. Conjuring a burlap sack over the head of an ogre might work, as an Ogre isn't exactly bright and may well fail the first Investigation check anyway. Anything that buys a chance to escape is a good one. It may also buy your Rogue a one-time Advantage for a sneak attack. Play on your target's ASSUMPTIONS. What will they hand wave or fall for? If you doubt they'll fall for it, try something else.
Read. The. Spell. Apply the Crawford rule: If the spell does not say it can, then it likely can't. However, if the spell also doesn't say it can't, then it might. Double negatives. I know. This means knowing the limitations of what cannot be done while squeezing every drop out of what can be.
Know your illusions. Know what elements can be brought to bear. If your target has no eyes, then avoid visuals. If your target has blindsight, use audio illusions. If your target has tremor sense, a loud enough illusion close to the ground might generate vibrations. Tieflings have the advantage here as Thaumaturgy can cause tremors, which are a great way to mislead such creatures. If a creature has a strong sense, like hearing or smell, generate illusions that take advantage of that in an abusive way. Turn their advantage into their disadvantage.
And remember that even IF you're an Illusionist, that Illusions are not your ONLY spell type. Mix up your illusions with real spells to keep your targets guessing. If you throw a REAL Fireball spell, what's the chance that your targets will believe the illusory one that follows? If you show that you can generate a Poison Spray a couple of times, they might believe the Cloudkill that's coming. Set up your con.
There are illusion spells that are timeless and that have very strict interpretations as well. Invisibility, Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern and so on are go-to's for the Illusionist that a fair DM should leave well enough alone.
Selling an illusion requires the right build. Yes, Intelligence is the key element to a Wizard build but do not ignore Charisma. A high Charisma, Deception and Performance build will help sell illusions to the unwary. A high Dexterity for Sleight of Hand wouldn't hurt either. If you doubt this, ask yourself why professional "illusionists" on our own stages are so successful. It's not just the craft - it's also their ability to sell it.
In the end, Illusionists require a greater level of cunning and out-of-the-box thinking (shameless plug). They require knowing their limitations and also require the right build. Know the target. Know your DM. And be willing to negotiate.
Amazing commentary, I will use it for sure, thanks!
Definitely well thought out and elaborated.
Thanks for your thoughtful commentary.
Totally agree, great summary. As a DM, I love creative characters doing something clever with an illusion. My biggest headache is players wanting to go way beyond the limitations of the spell, especially Minor Illusion. Like you said: Read. The. Spell!
Note: a DM who cannot follow the rules specifically in the PHB that say they should be rooting for the players (paraphrasing), has no right to the title. A DM who auto-ignores illusions would get one or two post-session warnings from me before being dropped; it's 2020 people-there are plenty of dungeon masters who aren't garbage at the game and make it fun to play.
In the first few seconds of the video, the problem I heard wasn't with illusions, but a DM who simply doesn't separate what he knows from what his npcs know. This is a human flaw and I think every player and DM to some degree.
I've found this to be an increasingly growing trend with each new edition of D&D. Essentially you get the hard core boardgamers who ignore the narrative and role-playing entirely. That applies to players and DMs. Basically illusions only work if the NPCs act as narrative characters and not just like mindless chess pieces that exist only to kill PCs. But you get a boardgamer and they don't care about the descriptions at all, they just care about what's on the board and making the best move. You generally know you have this kind of DM when none of the monsters ever retreat or surrender.
As the DM my party had to rescue a small group of scouts that had become captured by a tribe of Bullywugs. They were on a timer as the scouts were being fed to a Froghemoth living in a deep section of the swamp near the tribe. Insted of fighting the tribe, my great old one patron warlock used Prestidigitation to create three froghemoth eyes sticking out of the water and Awakend Mind to telepathically trick the Bullywugs into thinking the Froghemoth was speaking to them, telling the tribe leaders not to sacrifice anymore Humans and let them go, as they tasted horrible and to feed it more Bullywugs because they tasted better. The Bullywugs being rather dim-witted obliged the orders of their "master".
The warlock took what was supposed to be a pretty long fight through a tribe ending in an escape from a Froghemoth and by using trickery -- saved all of the scouts without having to enter combat once. The session ended shorter than expected but man it was such a clever move I was impressed (this was from a very new player to D&D by the way so everyone applauded the idea).
The rolls were also in her favor but I will try to always allow players who put such thought into their plans a fudged roll here and there, it's what makes it fun!
@AmishRiot True -- the only reason I gave it to them was because she just wanted to make the eyes. Not the stalks or an entire froghemoth, but just the eyes sitting kind of on top of the water to give the illusion that the creature had gotten closer to the tribe just barely peeking out of the water. The way I interpreted the rules was you can make a trinket or image that can fit in your hand and you can have three effects running at once. I'm not sure what the actual size of a froghemoth eye is but the fact that the player wanted to make three eyes floating right over the water and was within 10 feet, I gave it to them.
@@jordanskittlethorpe6792 Hmm, the only mechanical issue I see with this is the precise wording of Prestidigitation. You can create a (single) trinket or image that fits in your hand and lasts until your next turn. That's about 6 seconds. You can have 3 effects from 3 separate castings running at the same time, which takes 3 rounds to set up. So mechanically this doesn't actually work. Still, for such a creative solution, I can see why you'd waive it. And warlocks, as deceptive as they are, really don't get many options in the illusion department, so it wouldn't even make sense to require a different spell in this case. Plus, I've always heard Prestidigitation described as the spell that can make nearly any small effect happen. There is a reason it's recommended for all arcane casters.
@@Nurk0m0rath I'm new to D&D but "turns" exist more loosely outside of combat don't they?
@@onedankind8168 Yes, the turn system is often ignored outside of combat. Some people expand it to 10 minute intervals, and others ignore turns completely. But the spell description still provides some mechanical doubts as to the ability of the spell to generate 3 different images before the first one expires.
@@Nurk0m0rath Yeah I understand that. It's too bad spells like that didn't have more written in flexibility especially for higher levels. Just so people don't have to feel like they need to rule lawyer it.
I'm a fan of being pretty strict with a lot of the descriptions and rules. Mostly because some players take feats or great efforts to get abilities for their characters. To just hand them out for free can really disappoint people. But you gotta admit that was a pretty cool use for Prestidigitiaiamathing.
If as a DM you are against illusions, that's fine. But inform your players ahead of time so they don't build an illusion based character. It's no fun for anyone if the party is gimped by your arbitrary decisions they had no way to anticipate.
If, as a player, you want to play an illusionist or anything relying on interactions not EXPLICITLY in the rules it is YOUR responsibility to check with the DM that the universe functions the way you think it should.
i think i'd argue that a monster with normal sight and also blindsight or tremorsense would still be confused by the illusion, since it sees something but the information it's receiving isn't matching up. they might have an easier time determining that it's an illusion, but it would still confuse them
I had a warlock use minor illusion on a goblin horde. He had them believe that the goblins saw gold. He acted it out so good, I HAD see it through. Rolled for the goblins and they lost. It was an incredible story element of seeing goblins hypnotized by this illusion just to be killed by the players.
Illusions are not mindcontrol. Why would they allow people to slaughter them for some shinies on the ground?
@@deirakos depends on the party comp, and it's possible the goblins were surprised by the rest of the group. Sleep, thunderwave and burning hands spells wreck goblins.
I've had the problem myself. A dm at my West matches style game, just immediately moved an enemy through my illusion and then just ignored whatever I did.
In my own game I sent my players into an illusion dungeon, none of them made the investigation. All the walls were fake, I had real monsters in it though, ghosts of course.
Damn, that sucks for that first part. If I was in that situation and it happened more than once or twice, I'd make it a point to rudely leave the session and bluntly inform the DM that if he was going to be a dick, then so could I. It's a game, after all, meant for fun. It's no fun whenever the DM is shit.
Honestly don't let it get to you, just goes to show your campaigns are both fun and fair
This is pretty much one of the exact reasons phantasmal force is one of my favourite illusion spells. While it only affects the single target, you have pretty free reign with what you can make appear, and due to it being solely in the victims mind it can get around stuff like tremorsense.
So essentially, you could have titled this video, "The Problem with Bad DMs in D&D".
But manifesting that gargantuan creature in a small space is completely legitimate. Why that 20 ton flying lizard that is 40 feet tall definitely walked through a 4x6 foot pair of doors. As a DM I have to remind my players at least once a campaign that illusions need to be plausible not to trigger an investigation check. You want a good distraction in a city project a shrieking child's voice into the nearby well. Being pursued by bandits in a forest at night, well light up bushes with sets of glowing eyes accompanied by the snarling of vicious wildlife.
@@MrAranak There's a difference between "oh look the Tarrasque appeared in this 4x4 cell" and "oh there's an extra 'cell' in this cell block". If you are a DM and have monsters just completely ignore illusions, then you don't know how to play D&D. Point. Blank. It's 2020, there's an entire Internet filled with ideas, rules, suggestions, and more that can be accessed. If you don't tell your illusionist-controlling players that illusions do not work in your campaign setting until when it arises in a session, you are the WORST type of DM.
Hell yeah! That's true!
With 5th ed. a saving grace is that the viewer needs to take an action to see through the illusion if they suspect it is there.
I think the old illusionist from AD&D was a very cool class
Good video
This is why I love the warlock so much. The fact that you can at will create a 15 foot cube illusion that can move and look natural is incredible especially when you can also change how you look every six seconds for free. You could walk around an entire city and never be the same person twice. If you took the keen mind feat( weird for warlocks i know) you could perfectly memorize the visual appearance of every citizen you come by so you have a nearly endless repertoire of disguises to choose from. Also, hex lasts for one hour and nothing says the targets know they’ve been hexed. So you can hit their wisdom to give disadvantage on perception if you’re planning on sneaking in somewhere or insight if you need to talk your way out of something. Hit their intelligence if you think they might know something about illusions and want to make sure they don’t discover your ploy. It’s fantastic
You think illusion is problematic? Try enchantment.
“They attack your... ambivalently”
The way I see it. I would only do an initial Int. check if the Passive Perception is higher than the spell save and even then they would still have to succeed the second check to actually realize it is an illusion
you are supposed to have to actively investigate an illusion with an action to attempt to disbelieve it. Rarely have I seen a DM who does this.
justBinia yeah I know but I figure they wouldn’t even think to make that check unless they physically interact with it or notice that something about it seems off. Hence the Wisdom check kind of deal. I think that seems fair.
Zomg! He said it!!! I miss the old attuned to notifications bit...
I saw in another video that changed my whole perspective on illusion magic. Is that it only seems enemies look and investigate illusions when there is a player who builds their character around it, but when that isn't a character the enemies never assume anything is an illusion. Meaning I have never seen an NPC/Enemy walk over to a real Wall Of Fire thinking it's just an illusion.
Well i played an illusion bard talked to my dm before we started the campaign and he was open to it and was willing to work with me... So i put a lot into Cha and Int made sure he was always reading books about monsters etc.
I had 2 cool moments with him in 9 lvls... Because most off the things he just didnt wanna play in to and just let it pass..
But the 2 times it did work it was awesome! stopped a rebellion / coupe on the kingdom because off major image 'summoning' a young blue dragon people where to busy with running away for them to focus on the dethroning.
*did stop playing the bard tho because off after talking to the dm 6 times about it nothing changed... So he stopped adventuring and opend a newbar after his moms bar got destroyed.
Many years ago I was at a convention and scheduled to run a 3E game. When I show up, no one had signed up for my game but there was another game at a nearby table and the DM asked me to join their group. Of course this adventure had pregen characters and the DM was like "I'm sorry. All I have left is this illusionist character". Me: "Great! No problem!". During the adventure we were trying to protect this camp from being overrun by a multitude of goblins who had to cross a bridge. I asked to find a place where I could see the bridge and had someone "hide me" from sight with some clever camouflage. I then had them remove the crosspieces of the bridge and soak the remaining timbers with all the oil we had - with more toward the far side. As they removed the crosspieces, I used illusion magic to replace them. When the attack came and hundreds of goblins poured down the hill toward the bridge, the first ones ran right out on the bridge and immediately felt the effects of gravity. I then had them light the bridge on fire from our side as goblins began to shimmy across the support beams. This caused the ones on the bridge to catch fire and the heat was felt by the nearest goblins. I then had illusionary tendrils of fire reach out and set some of the closer ones on fire. I had a good DM who agreed that all my actions made it plausible that the goblins would think it was real fire and were routed for the most part. That our party was picking off goblins with ranged attacks helped as well. Afterward many of the players said they had never seen an illusionist played so well. It all stems from a 1E article I read that said that for a player (or monster) to disbelieve an illusion, there had to be a reason for that disbelief. After several goblins had plummeted to there death - including some that were pretty sure there wasn't a bridge there anymore but were pushed by the masses behind them - they stopped as they had a reason too. If you make the illusion believable then until the opponent has a reason to disbelieve, they should treat the illusion as real. And yes, the dragon appearing out of nowhere is most likely not believable - unless that particular area is visited by a dragon on a regular basis.
Iv seen a DM run a npc warrior that closes its eyes to hit a player with mirror image, because mirror image only effects creatures that rely on sight and disadvantage is a higher chance to hit than 1/3 your hit chance.
That felt so cheep
I’d be okay with the eye closing if either that NPC had high wis or Int (of both) and/or has specifically fought this spell before.
I write down what I met and fought, how often and notes so my illusions are realistic if I fought drow elves twenty times then tend to look good over a dragon kind I never met.
Prestidigitation was used in a campaign I was playing to ruin a scent ability of a monster, also made the bard Puke
I was walking out the front door of a mansion with a sack of gold I just pilfered from the safe when basically the entire guard garrison show up, I used mislead sending my illusion to run one way while I snuck out back.
BBEG has True Sight. Illusionist Wizard immediately becomes Counterspeller and Teleport Taxi of the Party because his whole shtick is now useless.
EDIT: I just reached the point where you pulled out the FACTS (Blindsight, Tremorsense, True Sight). It's even worse than I thought. I swear on my honour as DM, if someone ever wants to play an Illusionist Wizard in one of my games I will cut that amount in half. At least.
Grater Good I played one which was a lot of fun as we only went to like level 7 so most enemies didn’t have counters to it. At high level I’d prolly have been shut down hard. I did have fun however coming up with creative ways to use them offensively to give our PCs an advantage. I do suggest talking with gm if you want to do this. Currently in Pathfinder you don’t automatically get a check to see through an illusion. You have to “interact” with it first. Depending what the gm considers “interacting” it might be bad. Our gm was nice about it however.
Grater Good You also have to remember the amount of animals that have extra sensory abilities beyond just that like really good hearing for Owl bears. Super good sense of smell like bears and T Rexes and Ultraviolet site or infrared like various types of snakes and birds
I remember playing a half-elven bard in 2nd edition, who specialized in illusions. In-game, she kept a journal with intricate drawings and accompanying notes on the behaviour of any kind of monster the party encountered. As a player, I kept a notebook with notes on the monster types encountered, and any relevant notes. Then the character would study the journal every evening, for use in relevant situations. This made my DM pay attention. I also always made a point of intently studying the critters after combat, making note of how they died. Very much fun. Probably one of the more intense characters I have ever played. (back in 1991/92, I think)
I love illusions, one of my favorites is phantasmal force, it creates sounds, smells, and touch, so it technically can fool tremorsens and blindsight.
My favourite use of illusion magic in a game is as follows. I got given (I say given...I’m cutting a long story short lol) a faerie dragon companion who likes to use illusions to pull pranks on people and enemies. Not too long ago, she managed to create a Minor Illusion of a fly to hover in front the last orc in our encounter, who just so happened to be the leader of the group and the only one with a greataxe. The orc rolled to see if it noticed the illusion and got a total of 0. It attempted to strike the fly with the greataxe, rolled max damage and managed to decapitate itself.
But minor illusion is a static image with no sound (unless sound is chosen, in which case theirs no image). Even an orc, a creature with animal like instincts, wouldn't immediately believe a static, non-buzzing fly...
JustMonica I’d agree, which is why I think our DM did an INT roll, which resulted in a 0, thus it was fooled :) My initial idea was just to annoy it. It just got so annoyed that it decided to kill itself 🤷🏽♂️
I always keep of list of NPCs and creatures I encounter, so that I can make a convincing illusion if I need it.
If you've encountered a zombie, a beholder or a mind flayer before, the illusion is much more convincing than if you have to create one by hearing it described by word of mouth or a picture in a book.
I thought the Eight character from season 2 of Stranger Things used several inspiring illusion spell ideas!
(3.5) We defeated the juvenile/young adult (can't recall which) Black Dragon in Forge of Fury with illusions and Web. we made all the water and the air above look like it was covered in Web (like the spell) so it wouldn't really try to escape/use the water to hide and murder us. Than we woke it up by actually casting Web and simultaneously hitting it with a couple tangelfoot bags. Our CN cleric had a couple skeleton archers and a with a few unlucky rolls on the DM's part, we bagged ourselves a Black Dragon (about the size of a horse, if i recall correctly). Really, those rolls saved us, or else it would of acid blasted our whole party to death.
Illusions are fun, but difficult to sort out if you are trying to figure out what is supposed to happen. Our table finds that they are more fun when you can roll with it and take them at face value.
As an expectation, we figure that an illusion spell would almost always burn an action when it is being investigated or attacked by an enemy.
We’ve had illusory walls that hid other hallways in dungeons.
A manticore fly out to threaten the party and provide cover for archers during a tower siege (major image doesn’t move the air around and a friendly flying sword was really confused when it was commanded to attack the manticore).
An illusory version of fog cloud during an intense fight, so it was interacted with, but we decided that unless the bandits cared to actually check we let it pass because they were more focused on staying alive than noticing fog condense on their armor.
We gave out a magic item of illusion spells that could be used once a day by drawing a card. Which, has kept me on my toes as a DM.
Coolest thing we ever did with an illusion was win a combat encounter against a tribe of 40 lizard men, we had just killed the black dragon they were worshipping, attempting to escape the swamp, the DM had prepped a whole chase with loads of skill checks for us to get away, my bard snuck over to them alone, and major imaged a ferocious gold dragon sweeping over head, being ridden by the group and bearing the group's symbol. The illusory dragon herded the lizard men with some fire breath, and told them to return to their homes or they would see their whole village burn. The lizard men left, and the DM was really good about having to not use everything he had prepped. Just shrugged and said "fucking bards" had some really good RP the rest of the session
I often find it isn't that the DM is a jerk or even not wanting their plots foiled easily... it is they are inexperienced. This causes issues that the DM isn't able to quickly role play NPC reasons to illusions, they are fearful they will make a mistake (which then allows the PCs to abuse the game for the rest of the campaign), or it is just too much effort. It is hard to think on the spot, especially if you have never encountered that situation before. It is also hard for DMs not to have an initial picture in their minds and role play that... rather than something more random or what the players were hoping for.
I generally treat illusions by imagining a worst (typical) case and a best (typical) case in terms of effectiveness. In the case of guards, they know that they were chasing the PCs and now there is a dead end. Worse case (for the PCs) is they assume there is an illusionary wall and stop their movement for a round and each touch wall until they feel through it. Best case (for the PCs) is maybe that the guards assume that the PCs are invisible or something and slowly advance swinging at the air for a few rounds, then search for few rounds. So... give a (group) intelligence check and give them give them 1 to 5 rounds of wasted time based how well they did. If the PCs do something imaginative... maybe disadvantage on the roll. If it is obvious (say the guards do know this alley) then give advantage on the check. I find this a reasonably quick way to adjudicate basic illusions without too much risk of making a mistake.
Had a mini arc for my players to stop a wizard from call in a kraken to destroy a town turned out he was only making illusions and having goons kidnap people and making it look like he could call up lovecraft monsters
Nice! I might have to use that some time, I love tricking the players with a good misdirection. "Pay no attention to that doppelganger behind the curtain..." :P
Alot of what helped was reskining a few spells to look more eldritch like I did spiritual weapon but instead it was a floating worm monster cause he found ways to make spells look different threw adding illustration tricks into the casting
@@ultimowtmage8181 Some spells don't even need reskinned, either... An awful lot of spells have in their text that some of the non-mechanical effects (visuals, sound, etc) are personal to the caster- Spirit Guardians is a perfect example, but it can extend to plenty of others.
I had a player running a Monk with some splashed levels of Wizard; for flavor she wanted her Magic Missiles (the only spell she really cast, lol) to be glowing blue fists that made a lightsaber noise while flying through the air, made of her "chi" (not actually using Ki Points; purely her choice of in-game description of her spell casting.) I saw no reason *not* to let her, since it only affected the game ambiance and nothing mechanical.
Heh... I later "borrowed" the idea with a Rogue/Warlock I played, having his Eldritch Blasts look like ghostly daggers because it seemed to fit this style.
My DM actually let me summon chains around a roc as an illusion and failed it's save and fell to the ground thinking it could t fly because of the chains
I had a Monk (Way of Shadow) / Wizard (illusion) that would pretty much never stop using minor illusion. My favorite moment with it, was walking into town and for reasons I can't remember, we decided to make a show of strength. So my character raised his hand high in the air, and created a 5 foot ball of fire. Then switched it to lightning, then poison, and so on.
The "villagers" were terrified.
I was being chased by town guards in a scene very like what they discuss once, I dipped down an alley and made the illusion of a garbage can to hide inside. After the guards ran by, I went back the way they came.
I once ised Minor Illusion to mimic the sound of rocks falling, and Silent Image to make it look like the cave collapsed while we escaped from some Kobolds.
I also illusioned some Caltrops on the ground in front of a door to slow those same Kobolds down while they tried not to step on them.
And I have a character who reactively casts Minor Illusion to hide in a barrel to escape danger.
Came upon this vid while researching in preparation for a soon to start campaign! What really needs to be key is communication with your DM about your character's ethos and how they'll be using thier illusion magic so that they can take that into account. To that end, my new illusionist character is a pacifist who is very murder averse. So I've made it very clear with my DM that I plan to have my character act thusly, especially with her illusions. And happily, the DM appears to be relishing that challenge.
This is one reason I almost never change the roll as a DM. I find general chance creates great moments either good or bad. So like for a guard in a city they know maybe I give them advantage to remember there is no wall there and make the investigation check, but mostly its just good fun to give players a fair shake. It makes up for the times when I accidentally put something too challenging in their way and the PCs almost die. Or the PC rolls three 1s in a row when attacking. Players already get bad luck.
I used illusory terrain once to prevent a defective juvenile Remhoraz that was born incapable of protecting itself from extreme temperatures from escaping the circus and rampaging by making it look like it was surrounded by a ring of lava/fire
My group just wrapped up our campaign and I'm really in the mood to play an illusionist wizard but we're doing decent into avernus, hopefully I get to play one soon
I used a lot of illusions in that campaign. Only highest lvl enemies have true sight, but regular cultists, devils and demons can be tricked with right illusions.
Illusions are the creative casters of the D&D universe. They encourage thoughtful, creative play. If the caster keeps making outrageous illusions (like a red dragon in a cemetery, or an Iron Golem floating in the air) then the enemy shouldn't be easily fooled. However, if you cast a good illusion appropriate to the setting then the DM should award creative thinking. If players aren't rewarded for creative play every game becomes Murderhobo-ville.
The problem with illusions in dnd is at the same level as the problem with guards in Skyrim, for example. You can create the most clever illusion of all time, but in the end, the DM choose to give npcs omniscience and all of them start investigating everything around like paranoids.
It's exactly like when you play Skyrim and you are a master ninja with 100 sneak and all guards can detect you, even through walls. Oh, you killed one random guy outside town over 10km away? Nope, the guards know that, and they gonna kill you.
The problem with illusions are not the spells or the rules; it's a childish DM who never want to loose.
My parties tended to stack certain illusions, transmutations, and abjuration spells on top of real terrian changes. It worked 7/10 times. It's all about what kicks off when and in what order to make real area changes.
Mimics, False hydras, and one really lucky Mindflayer were the exception to this.
I know now that this is not how the spell works but I did not then. So my Dragonborn sorcerer was a noble that’s home was favourable to monsters and would let them live there so when we came across a goblin encampment that we was to big for us to take we were level 1-2 so I cast minor illusion to project an image of myself to do a very charismatic speech to them to join my nation that long story short got me a small army of goblins although didn’t get the bugbear
Regarding tremor sense.
Tremors are simply sound vibrations in a solid.
Therefore one could create the illusion of tremors in the ground.
The spell does not say it requires line of sight, just within range, so vibrating the ground as if someone was walking on it, would work.
For blindsight, if it functions by sound, such as echolocation, you could argue you made sounds, matching that of the creature, to trick it's senses into perceiving an object there.
Now creatures such as bats still have vision, so they would likely note something is wrong, one sense detects it, another doesnt.
But it could be something hidden? With no knowledge of magic, I presume it would cause confusion for the creature, and it's actions may be unpredictable. Maybe it goes after the illusion, maybe it stops to study it briefly, using it's action, and notes one sense is being fooled.
That lapsus with the subtiles at 7:09 : loser magic ^^
I find it interesting if you have an illusion that allows you to cast spells through it. so something that uses tremor sense or something similar can't see it so its like casting spells while being invisible.
As a dm in your example I would probably decide that even if the guards know the city that well Suddenly being presented with this illusionary wall would probably cause hesitation in the front row and give more time for escape or ambush.
My two favorite illusion tricks
1) Mixing illusions with more "real" magic. Lvl 5 wizard casts Fireball on round 1 and says it was a warning shot. Round 2 - the wizard casts Silent Image of a fireball, that is 10 times bigger then the last one, making half of the enemies to run away. Or make them think you can only cast illusions and then start to summon greater demons and stuff.
2) Using warlock with unlimited Disguise Self + Actor.
I always like jumping to the idea of creating illusionary hazards like giant spikes, pillars of flame, pools of green fantasy acid, and of course walls. As soon as the guard tries to fight the illusory warrior, he knows it's fake. But he isn't going to try stabbing the five foot diameter pillar of flame.
I also tend to remark that illusion magic is like the low level version of the Wish spell. You can recreate any magical effect you want but it's illusionary. A big display of flashy magical effects might intimidate enemies and npcs. Or if they know what a Fireball looks like and you fire a "warning shot" off to the side. If it's known that you don't walk through rainbow colored effects (Prismatic Wall for example) you can deter enemies by making a fake rainbow wall.
I think every DM should be forced to run an Illusionist in 3 campaigns before DMing for a player running an Illusionist. This comes under the heading "I shall not criticized by brother until I have walked a mile in his moccasins"
How about the illusions of the feeling of spiders crawling on you, the smell of a nearby fire that isn't really there, or the sounds of distant screaming? Sight is just one sensation to fool. Though if you're going with visual, another fun way to use it is to throw in some truth: turn around a corner and make it look like the wall stops shorter than it really does so whoever's chasing you just runs face first into it (can also do this with a door showing open), displace the image of a pit trap, escape into the woods and blend your escape path with the thicket.
This seems like it will be verry relivent to my forest-gnome archane-trickster graphiti-artest.
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My diviner, on the other hand, plans to take minor-illution, but for visual communication, rather than trickery.
In a campaign i play Illusionist vs a vampire: Illusionist make a sphere shaped flowing water illusion, the vampire passeri trough It telling "i know Is an illusion, i can FEEL of Is real water" no dice rolled, no check made, simply a waste of effort...
Way late on this. But in an Underdark campaign my Sorcerer-Rogue has a druid who had a great tendency to be a giant spider and summon spiders, and is all around a touch creepy. (we all are really.) The DM pulled a great "Didn't Actually die" moment where we pushed a guy into some webs to sprint for our lives ourselves but we never SAW him die.
He's popped back up surrounded by bodies and is lookin to kill us. And I'm going to hopefully hit this man with some illusory webs and very real darkness, and let the druid surround him as I whisper nonsense inside his head.
Late to the party I know, but investigating illusions for future DMing. Great discussions and ideas on here.
To me there are several aspects to how much should be doable with illusions:
Firstly, illusion magic is very cool and clever uses should totally lead to great moments and successes for the players.
Secondly, it needs to add to the cooperative story the game is telling and work for the style.
Finally, it is the most versatile of magics and spellcasters are already incredibly potent in 5e. If every situation is being dominated (both social and combat) by a clever illusionist it *can* make the game frustrating for the rest of the group. This may need to be addressed and discussed how to balance.
I think illusions are one aspect of the game that really needs ironing out before play starts.
Not all illusions are sight based only. Some work on multi-sensory level and would trick blindsight or tremorsense
I let a player use minor illusion to create a fake bombing as a distraction during a chase and it worked. A later illusion failed to provide cover because he cast it right in front of himself and the alchemist tried to destroy the cover with acid. I try to give a more inspired use of minor illusion or one using a levelled spell more weight. I also try to remember what higher level spells can do. If you're casting minor illusion and describing the effects of Major Image, I'll ask which part of that you're doing with Minor illusion, and how you plan to make the rest happen. That might make you use the appropriate spell, or it might prompt collaboration with other characters to create an effect greater than the sum of the parts.
Players won't be excitedly retelling the story of how none of their spells work. They'll be complaining about the DM.
The player(s) will get frustrated and either: stop showing up, become problem players in their attempts to overcome the roadblocks created by DM.
A wall is a good example of the problem with illusions. Party is hiding behind a wall created by illusion spell. A creature not realizing it is an illusion may not see through (and see people behind). But what about creatures knowing the wall is an illusion? Do they suddenly get 'x-ray' vision and see clearly throught it? Can be problematic in ranged firefights, one side sees other, the other does not. If you are messing with creature's mind is another story, but that is targeting a specific creature. In this case scenarios above are totally plausible. General illusion spells (most notably Minor illusion) are very broad and can easily step into conjuration school, partly even enchantment.
I once was dming a group that ran into a bunch of orcs my brother who was a player in that group had created a wall of fire that messed up a lot of them then used an illusion to create another wall of fire even though wouldn't do damage they definitely were not going to go through that again
My personal ruling is even if something has truesight or whatever, if the player is creative enough with how they construct their illusion, it's going to do *something* for at least one round of combat, or a couple seconds of narrative. Might not be what they intended, but it's something.
One time, our party was attacked by a hellcat in a brightly-lit room. (Hellcats are invisible in bright light.) So after casting Protection from Evil on everyone, I used Silent Image to create an image of a giant parasol that blocked the light, enabling the melee characters to put it down.
I have kind of mixed feelings about this. Since "things can pass through" it, and since those who disbelieve it can see through it, then it probably shouldn't block light, from a logical standpoint. If you cast an illusion on a torch, then it wouldn't change the light level in the room, but people wouldn't be able to see the flame itself until they disbelieved the illusion. It would only _appear_ to block the light from the perspective of someone who glances at it without examining it too closely.
On the other hand, I'm kind of proud of that battle, because my creative use of the spell ended up saving the day.
nothing in the rules says they automatically know its an illusion just because they saw you cast a spell
With the Guard example I would make a Wisdom check with 5 plus on the guards, and even then I would give the player 5-10sec, if they describe it well.
It would be an int check. Most illusions state that it requires an int check to dicern illusions. Also remembering things is tied to int which would be applicable since the guards have to remember if there ususally was a wall there
@@deirakos my tae on the whole investigation to see through an illusion is that the person who is making the check would have to have a reason to suspect that something is an illusion. For example, if you add a barel onto a stack of barrels, then unless the individual is very familiar with those barrels then I wouldn't give them the investigation check due to there being no reason for them to suspect it's an illusion.
If you know that someone has true sight, you can use illusions to make them dropp their guard. If you summon an illusion of a dragon, and he sees through it, he won't think you're a threat and you can stab him in the back.
im a master illusionist as i cast imaginary friend and keep forgetting i cant play d and d with them
had a DM who just never seemed to get how illusion worked. hide in the shadows and create an illusion of a thief or intruder stumbling into the secretive group commiting a crime (creating a witness they don't want) and then have it look like it's trying to escape... 'They ignore it and go back to what they were doing'... because with meta knowledge it wasn't a character, it didn't matter. Create illusory boulders to hide behind, 'it knows the boulder wasn't there before so it doesn't work' the monster sees through it and targets the person behind it... sigh, I just let him kill the character and played something else.
I'm not sure if you meant it this way or not, but Mirror Image isn't concentration
The Barbarian Goliath received a cursed axe that make her attack the nearest person fater taking damage, including party member. Me, eldritch knight tell the party to run as i take a defensive position the first round to allow the party to escape while she swing at me. I create an illusion of a wooden box around me and i write on the box "the orange". The DM look at me, smile and say you sneaky snake (metal gear reference for those who dont get it)
In AD&D, Illusions were useful especially for an Illusionist , in 5E not so much! I had a Gnome Illusionist that among his illusions were Magic Missile, Fireball, 2 Centaurs with lances charging and many other things and each had a phrase associated with it, to inform the other party members what i was using.
My go to strategy with illusions is to use them to replicate other spells that I can cast to control the battlefield. Is that the darkness spell or a silent image? Is that cloud kill spell really there or is that Chris being tricky again? The only way the enemy is going to know is if they barge into it and find out.
And I had a problem DM like that, and instead of saying “I cast a silent of a cloud kill spell” I say “My character says that he casts cloud kill” and the DM will figure out if it’s an illusion when his monsters follow the damn rules for seeing through illusions!
Main reason I do not make illusionist seems everything can see through them and seem pointless.
If you get the chance to play in a role play-heavy campaign, try one out; they tend to feel a lot stronger and more useful there.
Mann minor ilusion made some soldiers run from the battle because they heard "their commander" sent them to do so
Before 3rd edition... yeah, the good ol' days!
A cobald illusionist nearly wiped out a giant 12th level party in my first edition game. They need to bring back damaging illusions!
Phantasmal Force and Phantasmal Killer.
@@CallenExile
I don't remember any saving throws back then, just the act or touch of disbelief. We were fried by a flying dragon for several rounds before someone figured it out.
Can Druid’s turn into mimics
While I don't really see monsters having the ability to legitimately see through as illusion as being a "problem" I certainly see the "DM knowledge" issue as being a huge one. And it's not as easy as telling the DM not to do that since they may not even be doing it consciously. So I think one way to fix this is to change the default way illusions are perceived:
Illusions should be automatically believed unless there is a specific reason for them not to be.
And it doesn't really matter very much how "absurd" they are. That's because many illusions aren't really any more absurd than other kinds of magic. For example to a typical onlooker how would you tell an illusionary monster from a conjured one? And even if you did something that cannot be done with spells in the PHB how would a typical monster know that? Did they basically just get the equivalent of a 25 on an Arcana check for free?
Now of course because RAW requires an action to be used to see through an illusion this can be a little bit harsh. But common sense and some free rolls can be used to offset this a little bit (which is what people do anyway but they go a bit overboard). And I would also rule that these only let you know that something is an illusion and you would still need to spend your action and pass that check in order to see through it. So for example if an arcane trickster conjures a box to hide behind in combat the default position is that the enemies consider the box real until they have good reason not to (for example if the rogue starts firing arrows through it). Even though there was obviously no box there before. That's because unless they some kind of arcane knowledge they wouldn't really have any way to know that spellcasters can't really do that. Now bear in mind that a spellcaster seeing someone cast an illusion spell - especially one that they themselves know! - would likely see through the ruse. But even if they yell "Hey everybody that box is just an illusion! Don't fall for it!" guess what? That illusionary box is still opaque until they use their action to try to see through it!
Anyway this is just one way to look at it and only one aspect of it. And changing one part of the equation changes others, in this case the action economy, skills, etc involved in defeating an illusion. But I think this is a good start.
How would you rule using silent image in combat. I tried to use it to create fog that would protect me, an arcane trickster, and my friend, a warlock. DM rules that any physical interaction with the fog dispels the illusion. It’s my first time playing dnd and I don’t quite know the rules yet. I feel like enemies should have to do the investigation check to see through it. Right now it feels like I am wasting a spell slot and an action for a bonus to stealth rolls.
Depends on the circustances. Once an enemy interacts with it they'd realize it isn't real. I'd allow to work until point of contact or once you've taken advantage of the illusion at least once.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy thanks for the quick reply now all I have to do is hire a rules lawyer to explain this to my DM.
@@Nerdarchy follow up question. If an enemy know I’m in an illusion. Ex archers are shooting me so I use silent image to obscure myself. Would you let the archers attack into the illusion (with disadvantage) from range without rolling the investigation save?
You can't fool all the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people some of the time.
Find the weak link and exploit that weak spot with shrewd illusions. It's best they don't know you're an illusionist at all.
Minor illusion a Boat with Siren figure - mostly to scare the male PC :)
What the metagaming DM wrecking emertion and turning the game into stab spam.
one of my more favorite uses of minor illusions is to play background music as a bard.
Illusions are sub par with most DMs, but when you get to 14, you break the game with Illusory Reality, especially coupled with Mirage Arcanum. A mile with structures specified as possible, then make it real. Dragon? Nope, now he he’s in an iron cylinder. 3 dragons? Iron cylinder. 300 ft chasm? Nope. Now there’s a bridge. #win
Guys, I've watched you guys for a while now and I'm starting to see a deterioration. You essentially spent 10 minutes rehashing things you've said throughout other videos.
My suggestion is stick to the new classes and such, stick to cool build discussions, helpful tips, and spell assistance. Rule explanations as well. Maybe start a series where you go back to doing discussions over monsters like you did in the past.
Even with this topic you guys could have gone with a discussion of how to craft cool illusions that fot the spell rulings mechanically so you can convince a harsh DM, or go extravagant with new ideas and examples for the more lenient DM.
I say this as a fan who wants you to succeed, and lately your views and likes have plummeted
This did seem very familiar. I'm glad to see I wasn't imagining things.
@@karpmageddon4155 you didn't imagine anything, it was an "Illusion" 🤪
A lot of this assumes monsters know illusions are a thing. Cats chase dots of light all day long. What’s an owl bear or a bug bear do?
Hiding your friend in a Minor Illusion cardboard box like he's Solid Snake doesn't really work if the guard captain you're trying to persuade to go elsewhere can just "sense" that you're concentrating on a spell. Apparently anyone can learn to sense magic in the DM's homebrew setting, it was just unlucky that I, the only caster, was the only one who wasn't told about this mechanic before the session started. Kinda bullshit in my opinion, because that's what Detect Magic does, but sometimes ya just gotta deal.
I am playing a small sized owlin illusonist.
I actually prefer enchantment magic over illusion magic as why would you hide from an enemy when you can make them passive towards you though I will admit using illusion, and enchantment spells together creates the best effects if your DM is a stickler for that kind of thing then you need to find a new DM as a DM who is in it for the power trip is going to have problems eventually so you can either cause those problems or get out of dodge before that happens
I personally love teaching bad DM's a lesson, and I have rejoined a DM's group more than once when they told me their sorry. However, I made sure that he knew that I would continue to test them as a DM, and that if they could get through it all they would have more than my respect. I also love dealing with problem players for example when a rogue goes stealing from the party my paladin will ask to see everyones coins at the market which usually puts the target on the rogue yes it is somewhat meta gaming, however, I do this when meta gaming or not because it is useful to know how much money your companions have.
Do you guys have a discord server? I've been trying to find DM'S with a bunch of questions about Illusory Reality with a level 14 Wizard.
The most enraging thing as an Illusion player is the DM who says YES to what you try to do, but then ignores the effects completely, so basically you're spending your actions and not having any impact on the game. Talk with your players and explain why they can't do it. If a player doesn't understand the rules for illusions at the table, they will either keep trying to do things the DM doesn't allow, or will simply stop using illusions completely, which means now half of the spells in their build are pointless. Either way, it hurts their enjoyment of the game
I'm an OLD SCHOOL DM who started with an Illusionist character and then throughout the 1990s as a DM worked illusions into nearly everything. I even had one player so skittish that he would go around like a blind man wacking e everything with a stick to make sure the objects was a REAL thing.
This is one person who KNOWS how to use and deal with illusions. And those guards who suddenly turn the corner and saw that Illusionary wall - Well they would have to touch it to find out that IT'S FAKE thus giving the PCs some time to get away. Those illusions are used more to SLOW down the enemy than to FOOL them into believing it's real.
I mean I did do something pretty cool:
silent image+minor illusion=fake body guard
Is it just me, or does anyone else do the 'Attune' fingers every time they watch a Nerdarchy vid?