One of my players has a wonderful habit of setting up pitfalls and covering them with illusory surfaces, nobody thinks twice about the seemingly unbroken ground in front of them when it looks just like the rest of the area. It's only once people start falling into the traps that anyone has a chance at realising the illusion. Best part of this strategy is that once a pitfall illusion IS identified, the only reasonable way for someone to detect others is by slowing to a crawl and literally poking the ground in front of them every couple of feet. This means one illusory pit catching only 2 or 3 enemies can halt a small army's progress indefinitely, since the enemy cannot know where others might be at a glance, even if there are none. I have had to DM encounters where a single hole in the ground stopped a hoarde of 50 or more soldiers from advancing at any speed as they slowed to check every inch in front of them, affording the group time to pick off targets, reposition at their leisure and remain out of easy reach.
This reminds me of a Star Wars book I once read. The Imperial Remnant used cloaking devices on about a dozen asteroids, then placed them into orbit around Coruscant with tractor beams. But, they also dry fired their tractor beams hundreds of times to give the illusion of many more hazards. After the first collision with a ship and only the dozen asteroids were found, no one dared approach or leave Coruscant until the deception was uncovered.
My favorite 3rd level wizard spell is hypnotic pattern. My wizard being able to turn a whole room into mesmerized hippies on the best trip where they're tasting purple, smelling imagination, and seeing a whisper is by far and away more powerful than giving everyone in the room a slight sunburn.
Oh, and also using illusion magic on your players. Ive had great success in having an npc wizard summon monsters that add to the combat encounter. It adds a ton of tension and release when they realize the monsters are illusions. The npc wizard can then use that moment of confusion to get away.
And this right here is a big reason why I still play Pathfinder 1.0: the Spellcraft Skill allows a player to roll to identify a Spell as it is being cast. Any Wizard worth his salt would be able to tell a genuine Summon Monster from a Major Image, and would simply use a free action to tell the party that the monsters aren't real. Then the entire party would just focus on the enemy mage who just wasted his turn.
I uses a second level illusory object in a pf 2e to shut down half the party in a group of level 8s because none of them took recognize spell and they wasted a whole ass turn trying to break through a "wall of chains" After the illusion, I used a real spell of similar effect after the group went "heh, it's fake"
I’ve had the GM that gives everyone a save against an illusion, regardless of whether it makes sense. We politely brought it up and the response was “it is too powerful if they don’t get a save every round.” That DM literally trained the party to use only things that were very codified and had tangible outcomes written into the rules, otherwise it was always stacked against the players. Really felt bad. Illusion magic is one of my favorites!
Normally I chalk things up to playstyle, but I really have to lean into that your dm is just misunderstanding the goal of the raw here. And it's an easy thing to misunderstand!! It's hard for dms to get their head around. But remember, illusions do no damage and have no consequential effect once detected!
@@DungeonMasterpiece very true. That’s kind of the conversation we tried to have, but it came down to a difference of belief. The GM was also very much into the crunchy combat part and less in the role play part, so it fit the bill. After the campaign wrapped up I gracefully took my exit. I very much prefer role playing focused games now.
I've found that some players can be hesitant towards Illusion magics because prior DMs may have been jerkasses about them, finding ways to disrupt or dispel or interact with the illusion thereby spoiling the players creativity. Fireball can only be "stolen" from you with a counterspell. Half of my D&D players, however, came from a long history of playing Mage the Awakening/Ascension and live for the thrill of flexing the boundaries of what illusions can do. All plans are how they can gaslight the BBEG.
You should flip it around on them and craft a story so that they are caught in a moral quandary only to be harassed by another party who says that they are the BBEG hahaha
@@DungeonMasterpiece These players still don't trust me since running a campaign for them for 6 months, with the reveal at the end that they've been prisoners of a rakshasa family from a prior campaign, and I handed their old character sheets back.
Yeah, it really depends on how robotic and boardgamey the DM is. All illusions do is create flavor text, but many DMs don't even have their NPCs react to that. Some DMs will simply treat their monsters as roadblocks that will always attack the party and won't directly react to what the party looks like. You can generally tell this ahead of time if your DM's NPCs make no mention of the fact someone is a drow or the barbarian wearing a bear hide walking around the royal palace. If you see those warning signs where the world doesn't react to your narrative description, then I would strongly advise against using illusions ever, because chances are the NPCs will ignore that as well.
@@taragnor I had some trouble with a player with mask of many faces. Not trouble with him or the ability, just trying to keep track of which face he had on when he interacted with which NPC. I corrected by asking as soon as a social interaction started "who do you look like right now". And I had a little notes next to NPCs for whatever face he used last time. Wasn't perfect
Illusion magic really depends on DM agency. If a DM has a friendly attitude towards Illusion, things might work out fine. If not, then its better to straight up ditch all your illusion spells unless they are either free to use (cantrips, Eldritch Invocations) or extremely cheap (an effect from a magic item that could recharge). When my DM just constantly says "No" to the things I try to convince an NPC when using the Suggestion spell, or it constantly breaks because its not deemed "a reasonable action", then I might as well just switch to something else. Telling an enemy to run away is not a reasonable action because running away means they will be punished, means they will come to harm, and means the spell will break; fine. But a DM who dislikes illusions enough will simply come up with a countless other rebutals to not allow you to use them. Aside from the Suggestion/Mass Suggestion, the main offender to "The Illusion Problem", are the two spells Phantasmal Force and Phantasmal Killer. When you construct a convincing enough illusion, their power and utility exceed the supposedly acceptable power level too much. By making the illusion of Phantasmal Force be a field of complete darkness, would it make them Blind? If the illusion is being entangled by vines, would it make them Restrained? If the illusion was something they have a phobic reaction to (like an arachnophobic guard being chased by a spider from Phantasmal Force) would they become Feared? Personally I love illusion magic and spells meant for subterfuge. But its just not worth using them if I need to constantly 'argue my case' with the DM over and over again, and never get the upperhand because the DM always has the last say.
I ended up shelving Phantasmal Force because it was just too much for the GM and I to figure out a "fair" interpretation of the power level, while also trying to keep all the other "subgames" running as well (Encumbrance, Rations, Water, Torches, Down Time, Loyalty of Hirelings/Henchmen, Renown & Factions, Deception of NPC's... Deception of fellow PC's :) That said, Minor Illusion is still my guaranteed 1st cantrip pick, and our warlock's 2nd pick.
Illusion magic is my favorite type in D&D/Pathfinder. I once played a gnome fey-blood sorcerer and one of the highlights of that character was the time I conjured an image of a massive sea monster to terrify the local guard and dock workers long enough for us to steal a boat and escape to out next destination.
Same, illusion is straight up OP in pathfinder. The items and feats you can get allow you to get way higher dcs than any other spell school in the game
I agree with you on this. I think one of the reasons behind it is that plenty of DMs and players see solving an encountar only from a combat based perspective, therefore don´t even think about solving such enounters in a diferent way. I made once a "mentalist soceress" who only had enchantment spells and very few damage spells. First think my DM told me was that he´d prefer me to have at least mage armour or more AC. She was an elder woman not interested in combat and rather enchanting enemies and "running away".
One of my players started a spread of lycantropy, then the group alerted the castle guards. To really sell it, the bard used her illusion magic to make it look like part of the city was on fire; just a few rooves. By the time the guard found out that the flames were an obvious fake, the party was already inside.
We're really digging the illusion spell in Worlds Without Number right now! I love how it's already so powerful at level one. I get it that you have to be creative in a different way in 5e for example work those extremely limited lower level illusions but often those limitations feel to artificial and.. limiting.
Illusion magic is probably my favorite sort of magic in DnD, it's just sad that it is so DM dependent. The possibilities are virtually endless, if the DM doesn't metagame around them. I agree that it's somewhat of an exercise in trust between player and DM, because committing to an illusionist build feels terrible when the DM snuffs out every clever ploy through some way to avoid them, or doesn't engage with your misdirection in the first place.
One of the main ways I ended up using illusion magic in my pathfinder game (where I had low lvl spell slots to spare), was to cast minor image to make visual aids to help out while investigating, or creating giant flashing help signs out a window when I got in trouble.
A player wasn't fully satisfied with how an enemy treated the illusory dresser they conjured hide behind. The monster fully believed the dresser was there, just was trying to blast it out of the way. I did give the attack disadvantage, but I figured it saw the object conjured and was just attacking the cover. Another time the same player used minor illusion to make an explosion sound, to sell the idea that there was an attack, redirecting the guards to another area and the middle of a chase. I had that work just fine because the situation was already pretty chaotic, I figured there was no reason for the guys to think anything other than "this shift is hell, what now?"
Use illusions to "summon" more opponents. "Create" a giant gap that the hunters don't dare to jump over and so many more possibilities. The big trouble is the imagination the players or DM have. Fireball is pretty clear in what it does. Major image is not since you as the caster have to basically come up with the actual effect
Be aware opponents who are attacked once will instantly be revealed as false. Summon 8 guys, one gets attacked, the entire illusion becomes revealed. Also both the GM and the players should think about how knowledgeable the target is when it comes to magic. If they have reason to know about it, a spell that creates a chasm... that doesn't in any way create the rumbling associated with Earthquake, effects materials not effected by Move Earth, ect may be very suspicious... but to presumably your standard, uneducated NPC, 'Magic man summoned a hole in the ground' sounds perfectly reasonable. It takes a lot of work, from both the GM and the players to make work, but can be very rewarding. Or just cast Hypnotic Patterns, a spell that, if you ask me, is FAR more powerful than Fireball (And I think Fireball does too much damage for its level).
There are problems with both of these. For one as soon as any of your summons touches any opponent the whole tick is over, and if the simply never touch and look angry the trick won't be hard to spot, making the spell useless. The problem with "giant gap" is that it affects your party too as if they don't go around the enemy will realize it's fake, so it's actually not that impactful since it negatively affects both sides.
@@TheAnimeAtheist if you sufficiently outnumber/outmatch an intelligent enemy they shouldn't attack you, preventing them from realizing it's an illusion. (provided you have a decent DM) making the spell quite useful. and obviously the giant gap is made behind your party... like really bruh, how many brain cells does it take to figure that out?
@@aweeladdie if you make your summon mid to high cr it won't deter many mid and high tier encounters as it will very much strain credulity for most of those situations or just not add enough to deter. I mean Major Image is only a 20 feet cube, hard to fit a lot of believable mid to high CR illusions in that. Low tier obviously won't deter any but low tier so this application will really only work for mainly low tier encounters which at higher levels is not very useful. Giant gaps put behind either party doesn't do much. Neither side is inclined to retreat immediately so it's application is rather niche. So overall these uses are not that powerful. I don't mind you disagreeing with me but if you're going to insult people's argument on the internet you should probably bring better then this.
There’s a Japanese folk legend about a bridge that appears to exist but doesn’t so many people supposed died from falling there I’d imagine it illusion spells should be able to do that
One of my friend’s bard cast major image to create an adult dragon jumping from behind a group of trees. It worked super well at driving away another smaller dragon.
The problem, as you mention, is that people like to know the specific effects. Illusions are only as powerful as the DM decides they'll be, at that moment in time, and further require the DM to allow for 'natural' behavior by characters, NPCs and monsters in a world where reactions and responses are dictated by a dice roll vs. a stat. You create a situation not well bounded by the rules, like "create a scary image to induce a panic," and you have to decide how the guardsmen, their hounds, the innkeeper, and the patrons are going to respond. There are no rules to dictate what is "most believable," where your DM is the ultimate arbiter, in a game where your character should know better, but a player has no way to judge. ... and then you have people who say "I heard him cast a spell, I want to roll a check to see what it is."
This is the exact reason why spell casters are so much more powerful than non-casters in almost every D&D edition. Magic is so flexible, that it can end encounters in one spell if used creatively. Martials are trapped in the jail of mechanics. Magic Users are practically playing FATE on top of them.
The best part about Illusions is that if done right, they're fun to be on either side of. Silent Image especially with multiple Illusionists around to support with minor illusion. Some hedge mages scare off the big bad adventurers with a level 1 spell and some cantrips.
I can somewhat confirm: played a wizard in a game of GURPS in high school and the spell that I had the most fun with was roughly equivalent to minor illusion.
Most underappreciated Illusion spell in the game is actually mirror image for the fact you get it so early, objectively contributes self survival, and best of all does NOT require concentration.
I've been bingeing a bunch of your videos the past few days. I don't know why I haven't seen your channel before. Your content is really thorough and well-thought-out, while also being concise. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into these and then even more so crunching them down to less than 10-minute videos, and I just want to say I appreciate your work.
@@DungeonMasterpiece I see that, now. You've put out a wealth of quality content in that short amount of time. Bravo! You're doing a great job and I wish you the best in your endeavor.
Illusions are probably some of my favorite and least favorite spells for the exact same reason; you can come up with anything you want, which means that *you* *have to* *come up with* *what* you want. Sure, it's easy to use Minor Illusion to replicate the voice of a dead lieutenant, yelling through a door that he'll hold off the intruding party, and that the reinforcements should make sure there aren't more trying to sneak through their posts. Making Major Image emit the sound of grinding stone as a floor tile you had just been stepping on "raises," "opening" a space in the ceiling from which a stone wall crashes down and "bars" your pursuers, that's immersive; it really sells exactly how your illusion is tricking those that need to be tricked. But it can/will still have something to be Investigated, like the fact there's no weight of impact from an actual stone wall falling and hitting a floor, or a distinct lack of fighting sounds. But when I want to use an illusion spell to accomplish a task that I have next to no idea how to accomplish, boy does it make me feel (and probably look) like an idiot. DM: "While [Fighter] is trying to convince the two guards he's not up to anything, what will the rest of you do?" Me: "I want to Subtle Spell Silent Image to make one of the guards approach our ambush without raising the alarm, we can take this one and [Fighter] can take out the other one." DM: "Okay, how?" Me: "Umm... I make the... colors... on the tree...'s fruit... better? Brighter!" DM: "So do you mean you want them to glow, or..." Me: "Guhhh... nooooo, just... more vibrant, enticingly vibrant?" DM: "It's currently night time, I'll say [character] knows they won't really notice a slight color difference." Me: "Fine, I'll go with the glowing fruits. But they're not gonna be any weird color, just a white-ish backlight that'll make them look nice without drawing literally everyone's attention."
I kinda figure it’s the DMs job to provide a little flexibility here. You are going for a game mechanic result. The specifics are not really necessary if they are going to bog down the game at all. I want to make the fruits weird to distract the guards… done. I strongly doubt the DM has a ridiculously detailed backstory about why it can’t work… unless they make a saving throw.
@@Xplora213 I'd insist on the opposite: it's up to the player to think of something that would realistically distract a guard who's already having to deal with an intruder in heavy armour trying to blag his way past the guard post. That would almost certainly have to be something which was a greater threat to the guards themselves or a breach of the security of what they're duty-bound to protect, not some trick with a luminous peach. Glowing fruit might work on a guard with a WIS of 5 and low morale who'd missed his supper, but even then his mate should have enough sense to stop him wandering off.
The biggest difficulty that I run into is not how to creatively use an illusion spell, but making sure that both myself and the DM are incredibly clear on what the parameters of the illusion spell are before the game begin. I've been in at least one game where I have deliberately shied away from illusion spells because in the pregame discussion I realize that the DM was not going to allow them to shine
Finally someone says it. Illusion magic is underrated. For instance, I have a warlock that uses Minor Illusion regularly as cover and/or an ambush spot. I have her create the illusion of a crate/boulder/pile of snow (playing Rime of the Frostmaiden) and hide within it. It hides her and gives her advantage on her attacks until the enemy sees through her illusion. It gets even better against low Intelligence creatures, especially undead and beasts. And that is from a cantrip; just think of what you can do with leveled spells.
I just discovered this channel. It is so...good! You've got a good balance of rehearsed speaking style that feels very natural- reminds me almost of Jon Oliver's show. Carefully written but in a natural conversational tone. You've got some great insights and a clearly analytical take on roleplaying games.
Slight of hand is also illusion magic meaning if you can find a way to mimic spells using items you can essentially never get counterd spelled. Then combine it with actual magic for extra chaos.
Lack of the use of Illusionary magic is due to the lack of imagination. This is the same issue with Green Lantern and his ring, he only uses simplistic weapons because he lacks the imagination for more complex weapon types.
Dragons have blindsight, and most illusions, including major image, are basically holograms. They'd realize the wall was illusory instantly. As a DM, I honestly wish some monsters weren't canonically so powerful so players could defeat them in more interesting ways. I had a new player be very excited to cleverly draw fire and use Mirror Image to defend against a dragon, since the spell eats attacks even if the roll and possible damage is very high. Great strategy against most multiattacking monsters, but unfortunately useless against dragons
Through the years, I have found Illusion magic to be some of the most powerful spells in the game, not for the ability to deal damage, but for the ability to control the battlefield and manipulate enemies.
Fun trick. Take a large pit or other drop and create the illusion of something covering it that would conceivably belong there, with something wildly inconsistent right at the middle. Explain to the DM that when the person goes to investigate the illusion of the inconsistent thing, they will likely _not_ also be investigating the consistent thing, which they need to walk across to reach it.
7:26 this is some great advice. It also really leans into the idea that all the players, including the DM are in the game as a group together, building the world together.
A lot of this is on the DM, too. I went the route of a full illusion wizard, but the DM kept throwing people at us that somehow always saw through illusions, and my character build was essentially bunk
My Hexbuckler uses Silent Image as heavy obscurement. 15x15x15 Fog Cloud, blizard-like flurry and a heavy swarm of wasps have all worked wonderfully. It's even more effective when I use it in conjunction with Disguise Self. Hiding in a heavy snow flurry is cake when you look like a snowman (think late 1960's X-men's Iceman).
Illusion Magic is basically the Charisma stat of magic, but in reverse. Kind of nebulous, but rather easy to disregard. So many times I've tried to persuade or deceive an NPC and a charisma check is never asked for; illusion seems to very easily be checked against if it's not the tried-and-true "gnome runs around a corner and minor illusions a crate on top of herself". I think the dimensions given may also influence its usage. Your footsteps, for example; does the alley way terminate within that space inside the player's head to even think of that? I once tried to scare some mobs early on by using minor illusion to make a beholder appear around the corner. I didn't realize beholders were larger than a 5'x5' cube at the time nor that minor illusion couldn't move spaces.
I have one player who is always more likely to play an Illusionist than any other type of mage, so I get to see a lot of creative use of his spells. His latest joy is augmenting the Ranger's ability to summon animals by adding more of his own; it's pretty difficult to argue a 'disbelieve' against an illusionary wolf when half of them are real. Illusions are great for dividing the battlefield and crowd control.
part of the problem with illusion magic is related to the first point. In d&d the spells are often just the effect but with illusions you have the gm approval. Ot can often take so long to decide what illusions are allowed that player don't bother
The real reason nobody uses illusion is because the NPC you're fighting is going to just walk up and touch it and then it's not going to work because every NPC that DM runs is skeptical about the existence of nothing until a player decides to play an illusionist
One of my players was a wizard at an arcane academy and I made it a whole half session of him with the illusion professor of her just drilling into his head how powerful illusions are. She finished this demonstration by casting a Major Image of the President of the country saying terrible things about its citizens. It clicked for him and the next time he leveled up his free spells were both illusion.
Illusionists and enchanters have always been hugely unsung hero's and absolutely game changers in encounters across pretty much every edition. In 5e illusionists and Enchanters are absolutely wild to play, combined with powerful buff/debuff spells along with being able to just control the space they inhabit in a way that other casters can't is a wild ride.
A shame Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic (phantom evocation spells from 1e and 2e) was not included in later editions, especially 5e. Also, phantasm killer and weird were far more deadly.
we were doing 3.5/pathfinder modules for war of the lance and my husband was playing a red robe illusionist. he kept trying to do illusions and the dm didnt allow any of it. eg: player is on the other side of an enemy's sleet storm spell. player casts invisibility. enemy can see him anyway because of where the snow isnt falling. but the player is on the other side! not in the storm! eg 2: we are running in a natural cave system from a bunch of dwarves who are chasing us. we find a small side tunnel, player cast hallucinatory terrain to make a cave wall, covering the entrance to the tunnel. the running dwarves dont stop and spend time to investigate, they immediately see through the illusion as they run up to it. forcing us players, who fully expected at minimun a round of investigation by the dwarves, to be caught up in initiative checks for combat. the only spells we were allowed to use with reliable RAW results were evocations and similar combat spells. not even my white robe abjurer could reliably use abjurations! eg: the white dragon casts protection from energy: fire. player, "i dont get a check to identify that spell? nor use my readied action to counterspell (w/ dispel magic)?" "no, you dont know what spell it is" what?!?!
My favorite thing to do is combine illusion magic with something more tangible. Like pretending to have explosion magic but I just preemptively placed some powder horns.....there went the town.
My young ones first wizard doorway-cheesed an orc in the woods with an Illusory wall of trees. He would peek out, cast a can trip, and then run around the wall. Because he was behaving as if the wall was real, the orc had no reason to think anything other than this guy had conjured some trees. Because he couldn't see through the wall of trunks, he couldn't use his aggression ability to close the distance as a bonus action. After a couple rounds of ring around the Rosie, the orc was out of hit points
My Illusions test on any potential GM is to use a low level illusion to create a Mirror next to a light source. Does the mirror reflect light? Does the mirror block light? Does the mirror create light? Do I see my Reflection? Does my reflection move with me? Can I see through the back of the Mirror? etc etc
Also like all things in the game world if magic is common then NPCs especly trained NPCs should know about especly if that type of magic is common... Like trained town guards should know to double check papers of anyone passing through they hgate in case of normal forgery but also illusions. Which if they can't spot the exact spell or magic type they'll know about magic it's self and it's limits. Ofcorse it all depends mostly on the setting but still.
On the bright side, using an investigation check in a combat costs an action, so even if the NPCs make the check right away, it still wastes most of their turn. I've also heard some people say "well when the first guy makes the check, he can call it out to his allies." While I agree that this is valid and logical for them to do, they still need to make the check to tell for themselves that it's an illusion. Were I to be caught in this situation as a DM, the best I might do for the other NPCs is give them advantage on the roll. They don't necessarily know which parts of the illusion are real and which are just a magical disguise, after all! Maybe that rock wall is mostly real, but however many passages that are carved into it are all covered in illusions to look like they're part of the wall. One wrong move and people are running into walls, not through an illusion!
Personally i like illusion magic a lot, minor illusion being a 5ft square was the reason when i played a wizard that they were just about 5ft tall so they could make static images of themselves resting or reading to misdirect and buy themselves a few seconds and a advantageous position when they suspected a ambush. But what i usually see with people and illusion spells is that they often just take Minor Illusion, vastly overestimate it's capabilities (it's just a cantrip! not a high level illusion but smaller!) and then never invest in higher level illusion magics. Minor illusion is good for minor things, but you need about 3rd or 5th level illusions to really pull some stunts. Currently I'm playing a cleric so can't do any of that for a long time but for my next character i'm planning to really specialize in illusions, perhaps trick the party a bit too if we're still doing online sessions by then.
My favourite use of illusion “magic” in literature is in a Naruto fight, of all places- There’s a character called “Danzo” in one of the later seasons, whose arm is full of gross special eyes that he uses to fuel his attacks. The guy he’s fighting (Sasuke) uses an illusion technique to convince him that he has JUST one more of these eyes available than he actually has. It’s just one tiny piece of information, but it’s enough for Sasuke to win the battle because he caused his opponent to make a fatal mistake. Great fight.
My main character is an Arcane Trickster who is an illusion wizard college dropout, and I've had a lot of fun like this. There's not a single session in which our party doesn't make use of illusions, such as a dog barking to distract guards, or making a bush seem bigger in order to hide behind it. The other day our sorceress used an illusion to cause a hydra to bite itself, which was great.
I have an idea for illusion magic. The Illusionist isn't actually casting spells. They have an assistant, a variety of different tools and proficiency in sleight of hand. They are a charismatic Lore Bard. Of course for misdirection purposes, they play a flute which is their "spell focus". The targets are so transfixed on the flute playing that they don't notice the assistant using illusion trickery under their noses. Each day, the Illusionist Bard and the assistant talk about how to prepare their "spells" in advance.
I’ve had dms who will have npcs “walk into” illusions to dispel them or not react to illusions in any meaningful way. Other spells have specific predictable effects.
The problem with illusions like Major Image is that enemies *_don't_* have to make saves, or initiate a check to investigate it ... they just have to touch it. Since "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." This renders them completely useless, as inevitably someone or something is going to touch the illusion and instantly reveal it's nature to everyone around. If the illusion took place entirely in the targets mind, so that they did have to make saves in order to overcome it... then it would be useful. As no matter how hard they tried to bash through the wall, it would never break (even if in the real world, they were literally throwing themselves through open air, and landing on the ground ... they wouldn't realize this, and still think they were stuck behind the "wall", or whatever it is).
I think illusion magic is even more powerful in osr games than standard DnD. Like you said in another video, basically everything in the game is combat. The Black Company wizards Goblin and One Eye use illlusion magic to great effect. Always a source of inspiration
When I present a challenge to my players, I always want them to win in the end. I don't ever plan something with the intention that the players should lose. If they go and face a force obviously stronger than them and I didn't plan for it, then yeah they can get their asses kicked, but only because I didn't plan for it. If I plan some sort of encounter, and a player can present to me a way to use the illusion to completely bypass it, then great! That's LESS number crunching than having to slog through a combat.
Ultimately, I feel like Illusion magic can be summed up by, "My level 5 players keep trying to use Illusion spells to hide but never fully read or understand the text to realize that you can't physically touch illusions." Honestly, if that one element of Illusion went away, players would abuse the fuck out of the spells. Eeveryone wants to use them, not many actually do - because of that one aspect.
My problem is people forget that range or size ov a spell is all able to be manipulated! You dont have to do the max range (fireball can be cast as a 5ft sphere)
this all depends on the DM and how much they want to give you a hard time, i could imagine the DM making the guards literally start stabbing their spears into every normal-looking empty crate and stone wall because the DM knows you're behind it and wants to rationalize why they'd find you.
The biggest problem with illusion magic is that once the illusionist has become famous enough, their enemies will know "Oh, that's the illusion guy. Don't believe anything he conjured"
As a DM(keep in mind I usually end up ruling that the NPCs have no reason to check for illusion), I struggle with these and other spells when factoring in spell components. While yes, *typically* guards chasing a rogue down the alley have no reason to suddenly stop and investigate crates on their chase - are they *so* far back that a rogue had time to pull out a 'bit of fleece' somatic the spell AND, most of all, outside of earshot that they wouldn't hear the magic being incantated? Guards in a fantasy world would probably be aware of a spell being said when they heard one, no? Looking at your dragon example with the Wall of Stone, if no granite was seen being used during the casting of the spell, is it unreasonable to believe a dragon with Intelligence into the high 20s, knows that a bit of fleece(used in casting Major Image) is *not* used in a Wall of Stone spell. Even if it didn't know that it is a small brick of granite? I'm not sure and the usual response I find is people simply ignore components to begin with, and yet complain about the gap between spellcasters and martial - well yeah, imagine if the Martials weren't required to have their weapons or armor or any limit to the amount of Action Surges and other abilities they could do in a day, because that's what forgoing components is doing.
An illusionist with a wand of magic missile, fireball, cone of cold or whatever offensive spell you like, can wreak absolute havoc on his enemies. Alternatively by firing the wand to cause harm, and later using illusions to minic the wands effects PCs may find themselves diving into the trapped alcoves and insets to take cover from the wands effects. Only to later find themselves disbelieving an actual fireball and thus negating their own saving throws. It makes for some bitter players, but the wand is usually reward enough to restore their mirthful nature once the illusionist has been dealt with. And if the party captures the illusionist it's always fun to role play him offering to make the newly disfigured PCs beautiful again if only they'd allow him to use his magic. Hilarity and zaniness ensue if the Players should accept the offer. Illusionists make for excellent villians. As well as some of the most creative PCs possible.
Problem is major image is summed up with the letters VSM. Especilly the Vocal components, illusions simpl become a lot less powerfu when people close to you hear you cast a spell.
Illusion magic is my favourite school of magic. One of the issues with Illusion magic though with my experience is that its so very DM dependent. Majority of DMs don't understand that its not a save spell. I've had plenty of situations where DMs would just right away have NPCs do investigation checks even though it made no sense to. If you have a DM who can't handle illusions then they will be very bad to ever really consider in a campaign. Despite this, That's why you go Wizard Illusionist so you can make your illusions real lol
I'm dying to play an illusion wizard, after playing a Mind specialised character from Mage the Awakening I have my head wrapped around what to do to screw with people. :D
Illusion is insanely op. I remember playing a wizard that saw the bbeg through scrying and when we were gonna storm his underground base while he was out looking for us, I conjured an image of him that "dragged" me into it. I then brought out our warforged barbarian from our bag of holding and took out most of his forces from inside and weakened the defenses enough for the rest of the party to join us.
I think you rubbed right up against a big part of the problem, without saying it. The VAST majority of people who play d&d (players and DMs alike) cannot conceive of anything other than damage as a solution to a problem. You'd be amazed how often both DMs and players are mystified as to why I'd bother to cast Hypnotic Pattern. These same players and DMs will start rolling their Investigation checks the instant I announce an illusion spell, without even a pretense of justification. The ONLY thing they care about is getting back to killing. Unless the d&d community, as a whole, starts seeing past the damage numbers, Illusion magic is just part of the list of things that are useless.
Illusion = Imagination. Imagination is required not from just the player but the DM. Plus only OSE really rewards you with EXP for not killing a monster but for getting the treasure.
I mean, You said it. But the reason illusion magic isn't used isn't because its not good but because in dnd it is massively under explained AND there are so few benchmarks to guide dms on powerlevel. So a responsible/considerate player at this point will either a) approach the dm and ask, or b) use fireball. Of course there is the larger issue with dnd spell descriptions being exact, AND basing play experience on those exact definitions. When they suddenly break that convention and dont give dms tools to manage the spells, you get lots of "please just dont" from dms who already are doing most of the work. Spell descriptions are q two edged sword, if you hang everything on them, then dont be suprised when players play as youve written your game.
Illusions can be incredibly powerful. It all depends on how you use them. If a "mage" cast a spell and a whirling wall of blades appear, it could delay pursuit, giving the PC'S a chance to heal or hide. It could cause a rival mage to cast his Dispell Magic on the illusion instead of on you. If you used Ventriloquism, it could project the sound of a group coming up behind your enemies and cause them to turn around to face the "newcomers" . This would give thieves a chance to sneak off and backstab unwary targets. You really need to be a creative player when you play an Illusionist!
its also a problem of illusion spell getting nerfed by every single new edition, making them worse then they were before. They used to be literally real and able to kill and damage until disbelieved. Also the line of shadow spells and shadow monsters that were partially real even when disbelieved. All removed and replaced by spells that even with a generous DM and great setup are mindly usefull on occasion.
The important thing to note though is that as per major image: "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an Illusion, because things can pass through it." So you can just try to put your hand through the wall and automatically realize its illusory. Investigation is if you want to observe it from a distance without interaction.
Illusion has the problem that is too DM dependant so it may vary wildly from overpowered to useless. I think the cantrip Minor illusion causes more trouble to illusion magic in general, because DMs may tend to allow too much things to do with it, which can make other illusion spells obsolete. Where is the point having Silent image if you can already do everything with Minor illusion, which you can cast at will? So any class that picks Minor illusion as a cantrip can do the same thing as Illusionist Wizard. One example is getting (total) cover from enemies or even 'blinding' them in the middle of combat. Using the whole action to get rid of a rather strong cantrip effect can be a big deal. I know players should be rewarded for their creativity, but that example is more finding rules holes than anything else.
One thing most people forget (this might not be the case in 5e anymore i dont know enough about 5e to say) illusions arent “fake until dispelled” they are “REAL until dispelled”. Most people will try to say “oh it doesnt matter if you have an illusion if i hit it with my sword, i can tell its an illusion”… no, no you cant. Touching it once grants a save, so if you pass that, sure you can pass your sword through, BUT if you failed even ONCE against that illusion, you do not get any more free saves no matter how often you touch the illusion (it takes an action to investigate, so at worst, your illusion just became a 1 turn stun spell, that also gets a save, which is already awesome) so in other words, if you fail your save, you must act as if the wall is real, the wall IS real to you, and you can not “cheese” the illusion by ignoring it. That said, yes you can get advantages against illusions, but if the dc is high, or if the onlooker is dumb, it wont matter, they wont pass the dc. Now imagine instead of using illusion walls, you make major images of a god. It floats above the ground so you cant interact with it easily. You MUST act as if the god was real. Easiest way to shut down an encounter, you just introduce an authority who says “stop”. Even if one person passes, the rest might not, and the one who passed is helpless to aid his friends (pointing out the illusion would grant advantage, but thats not a big deal)
I love Illusion magic in D&D, but can never bring myself to create a character that uses them again. Too much of what makes illusions powerful relies on the DM not being a dick. Throwing up an illusory wall of fire, when this is an established and common things wizards can do, only to have all the NPC's in the area stop combat and investigate the wall was heart breaking and kinda ruined illusions for me. Maybe one day i'll find a DM who will be cool with illusions.
So all of the enemies passed a check to determine that the spell cast was an illusory fire wall? And they all gave up an action to investigate? And they all passed their saves? Nah, i would walk out of that game so fast
Wall of fire is a bit tricky since enemies usually just try to run through it (this is D&D after all). While in reality nobody would do that, in D&D just deciding to eat the damage to get to the enemy is a tactic that gets used all the time when it comes to Wall of Fire. Which for an illusion automatically reveals it, since any physical interaction discovers it's an illusion. The investigation check is only for if you want to examine it from a distance (without direct interaction). So you can always figure out something is an illusion by firing an arrow at something, or just trying to walk through it.
One of my players has a wonderful habit of setting up pitfalls and covering them with illusory surfaces, nobody thinks twice about the seemingly unbroken ground in front of them when it looks just like the rest of the area. It's only once people start falling into the traps that anyone has a chance at realising the illusion. Best part of this strategy is that once a pitfall illusion IS identified, the only reasonable way for someone to detect others is by slowing to a crawl and literally poking the ground in front of them every couple of feet. This means one illusory pit catching only 2 or 3 enemies can halt a small army's progress indefinitely, since the enemy cannot know where others might be at a glance, even if there are none. I have had to DM encounters where a single hole in the ground stopped a hoarde of 50 or more soldiers from advancing at any speed as they slowed to check every inch in front of them, affording the group time to pick off targets, reposition at their leisure and remain out of easy reach.
This reminds me of a Star Wars book I once read. The Imperial Remnant used cloaking devices on about a dozen asteroids, then placed them into orbit around Coruscant with tractor beams. But, they also dry fired their tractor beams hundreds of times to give the illusion of many more hazards. After the first collision with a ship and only the dozen asteroids were found, no one dared approach or leave Coruscant until the deception was uncovered.
My favorite 3rd level wizard spell is hypnotic pattern. My wizard being able to turn a whole room into mesmerized hippies on the best trip where they're tasting purple, smelling imagination, and seeing a whisper is by far and away more powerful than giving everyone in the room a slight sunburn.
Oh yea, just stack a ton of debuffs on em afterwards (cuz Slow, Hold Person, and Entangle, etc. don't do damage) and THEN fireball, lol
Oh, and also using illusion magic on your players. Ive had great success in having an npc wizard summon monsters that add to the combat encounter. It adds a ton of tension and release when they realize the monsters are illusions. The npc wizard can then use that moment of confusion to get away.
And this right here is a big reason why I still play Pathfinder 1.0: the Spellcraft Skill allows a player to roll to identify a Spell as it is being cast. Any Wizard worth his salt would be able to tell a genuine Summon Monster from a Major Image, and would simply use a free action to tell the party that the monsters aren't real. Then the entire party would just focus on the enemy mage who just wasted his turn.
I uses a second level illusory object in a pf 2e to shut down half the party in a group of level 8s because none of them took recognize spell and they wasted a whole ass turn trying to break through a "wall of chains"
After the illusion, I used a real spell of similar effect after the group went "heh, it's fake"
This ☝️
It also teaches the players the spell is useful, and convinces them to pick it up
I’ve had the GM that gives everyone a save against an illusion, regardless of whether it makes sense. We politely brought it up and the response was “it is too powerful if they don’t get a save every round.”
That DM literally trained the party to use only things that were very codified and had tangible outcomes written into the rules, otherwise it was always stacked against the players. Really felt bad.
Illusion magic is one of my favorites!
Normally I chalk things up to playstyle, but I really have to lean into that your dm is just misunderstanding the goal of the raw here. And it's an easy thing to misunderstand!!
It's hard for dms to get their head around. But remember, illusions do no damage and have no consequential effect once detected!
@@DungeonMasterpiece very true. That’s kind of the conversation we tried to have, but it came down to a difference of belief.
The GM was also very much into the crunchy combat part and less in the role play part, so it fit the bill. After the campaign wrapped up I gracefully took my exit.
I very much prefer role playing focused games now.
Feels bad, man.
Not a very adaptive GM then.
@@DungeonMasterpiece its not all DMs, its some people
I've found that some players can be hesitant towards Illusion magics because prior DMs may have been jerkasses about them, finding ways to disrupt or dispel or interact with the illusion thereby spoiling the players creativity. Fireball can only be "stolen" from you with a counterspell.
Half of my D&D players, however, came from a long history of playing Mage the Awakening/Ascension and live for the thrill of flexing the boundaries of what illusions can do. All plans are how they can gaslight the BBEG.
You should flip it around on them and craft a story so that they are caught in a moral quandary only to be harassed by another party who says that they are the BBEG hahaha
@@DungeonMasterpiece These players still don't trust me since running a campaign for them for 6 months, with the reveal at the end that they've been prisoners of a rakshasa family from a prior campaign, and I handed their old character sheets back.
@@dragonshadestudios 😂😂
Yeah, it really depends on how robotic and boardgamey the DM is. All illusions do is create flavor text, but many DMs don't even have their NPCs react to that. Some DMs will simply treat their monsters as roadblocks that will always attack the party and won't directly react to what the party looks like. You can generally tell this ahead of time if your DM's NPCs make no mention of the fact someone is a drow or the barbarian wearing a bear hide walking around the royal palace. If you see those warning signs where the world doesn't react to your narrative description, then I would strongly advise against using illusions ever, because chances are the NPCs will ignore that as well.
@@taragnor I had some trouble with a player with mask of many faces. Not trouble with him or the ability, just trying to keep track of which face he had on when he interacted with which NPC.
I corrected by asking as soon as a social interaction started "who do you look like right now". And I had a little notes next to NPCs for whatever face he used last time. Wasn't perfect
Illusion magic really depends on DM agency. If a DM has a friendly attitude towards Illusion, things might work out fine. If not, then its better to straight up ditch all your illusion spells unless they are either free to use (cantrips, Eldritch Invocations) or extremely cheap (an effect from a magic item that could recharge). When my DM just constantly says "No" to the things I try to convince an NPC when using the Suggestion spell, or it constantly breaks because its not deemed "a reasonable action", then I might as well just switch to something else. Telling an enemy to run away is not a reasonable action because running away means they will be punished, means they will come to harm, and means the spell will break; fine. But a DM who dislikes illusions enough will simply come up with a countless other rebutals to not allow you to use them.
Aside from the Suggestion/Mass Suggestion, the main offender to "The Illusion Problem", are the two spells Phantasmal Force and Phantasmal Killer. When you construct a convincing enough illusion, their power and utility exceed the supposedly acceptable power level too much. By making the illusion of Phantasmal Force be a field of complete darkness, would it make them Blind? If the illusion is being entangled by vines, would it make them Restrained? If the illusion was something they have a phobic reaction to (like an arachnophobic guard being chased by a spider from Phantasmal Force) would they become Feared?
Personally I love illusion magic and spells meant for subterfuge. But its just not worth using them if I need to constantly 'argue my case' with the DM over and over again, and never get the upperhand because the DM always has the last say.
I ended up shelving Phantasmal Force because it was just too much for the GM and I to figure out a "fair" interpretation of the power level, while also trying to keep all the other "subgames" running as well (Encumbrance, Rations, Water, Torches, Down Time, Loyalty of Hirelings/Henchmen, Renown & Factions, Deception of NPC's... Deception of fellow PC's :)
That said, Minor Illusion is still my guaranteed 1st cantrip pick, and our warlock's 2nd pick.
@@ldl1477 Minor Illusion is one if the reasons I like playing Forest Gnomes so much.
Illusion magic is my favorite type in D&D/Pathfinder. I once played a gnome fey-blood sorcerer and one of the highlights of that character was the time I conjured an image of a massive sea monster to terrify the local guard and dock workers long enough for us to steal a boat and escape to out next destination.
Same, illusion is straight up OP in pathfinder. The items and feats you can get allow you to get way higher dcs than any other spell school in the game
I agree with you on this. I think one of the reasons behind it is that plenty of DMs and players see solving an encountar only from a combat based perspective, therefore don´t even think about solving such enounters in a diferent way. I made once a "mentalist soceress" who only had enchantment spells and very few damage spells. First think my DM told me was that he´d prefer me to have at least mage armour or more AC. She was an elder woman not interested in combat and rather enchanting enemies and "running away".
One of my players started a spread of lycantropy, then the group alerted the castle guards. To really sell it, the bard used her illusion magic to make it look like part of the city was on fire; just a few rooves. By the time the guard found out that the flames were an obvious fake, the party was already inside.
We're really digging the illusion spell in Worlds Without Number right now! I love how it's already so powerful at level one. I get it that you have to be creative in a different way in 5e for example work those extremely limited lower level illusions but often those limitations feel to artificial and.. limiting.
Illusion magic is probably my favorite sort of magic in DnD, it's just sad that it is so DM dependent. The possibilities are virtually endless, if the DM doesn't metagame around them. I agree that it's somewhat of an exercise in trust between player and DM, because committing to an illusionist build feels terrible when the DM snuffs out every clever ploy through some way to avoid them, or doesn't engage with your misdirection in the first place.
Something something CNN
As a mage player that prefers illusion and divination, I have all but discarded spells like fireball at this point
always good to have the backup ace being the opposite of what you normally do though...
One of the main ways I ended up using illusion magic in my pathfinder game (where I had low lvl spell slots to spare), was to cast minor image to make visual aids to help out while investigating, or creating giant flashing help signs out a window when I got in trouble.
A player wasn't fully satisfied with how an enemy treated the illusory dresser they conjured hide behind. The monster fully believed the dresser was there, just was trying to blast it out of the way. I did give the attack disadvantage, but I figured it saw the object conjured and was just attacking the cover.
Another time the same player used minor illusion to make an explosion sound, to sell the idea that there was an attack, redirecting the guards to another area and the middle of a chase. I had that work just fine because the situation was already pretty chaotic, I figured there was no reason for the guys to think anything other than "this shift is hell, what now?"
Use illusions to "summon" more opponents. "Create" a giant gap that the hunters don't dare to jump over and so many more possibilities.
The big trouble is the imagination the players or DM have. Fireball is pretty clear in what it does. Major image is not since you as the caster have to basically come up with the actual effect
🧠🧠🧠🧠🧠🧠
Be aware opponents who are attacked once will instantly be revealed as false. Summon 8 guys, one gets attacked, the entire illusion becomes revealed. Also both the GM and the players should think about how knowledgeable the target is when it comes to magic. If they have reason to know about it, a spell that creates a chasm... that doesn't in any way create the rumbling associated with Earthquake, effects materials not effected by Move Earth, ect may be very suspicious... but to presumably your standard, uneducated NPC, 'Magic man summoned a hole in the ground' sounds perfectly reasonable.
It takes a lot of work, from both the GM and the players to make work, but can be very rewarding. Or just cast Hypnotic Patterns, a spell that, if you ask me, is FAR more powerful than Fireball (And I think Fireball does too much damage for its level).
There are problems with both of these. For one as soon as any of your summons touches any opponent the whole tick is over, and if the simply never touch and look angry the trick won't be hard to spot, making the spell useless. The problem with "giant gap" is that it affects your party too as if they don't go around the enemy will realize it's fake, so it's actually not that impactful since it negatively affects both sides.
@@TheAnimeAtheist if you sufficiently outnumber/outmatch an intelligent enemy they shouldn't attack you, preventing them from realizing it's an illusion. (provided you have a decent DM) making the spell quite useful. and obviously the giant gap is made behind your party... like really bruh, how many brain cells does it take to figure that out?
@@aweeladdie if you make your summon mid to high cr it won't deter many mid and high tier encounters as it will very much strain credulity for most of those situations or just not add enough to deter. I mean Major Image is only a 20 feet cube, hard to fit a lot of believable mid to high CR illusions in that. Low tier obviously won't deter any but low tier so this application will really only work for mainly low tier encounters which at higher levels is not very useful. Giant gaps put behind either party doesn't do much. Neither side is inclined to retreat immediately so it's application is rather niche. So overall these uses are not that powerful. I don't mind you disagreeing with me but if you're going to insult people's argument on the internet you should probably bring better then this.
There’s a Japanese folk legend about a bridge that appears to exist but doesn’t so many people supposed died from falling there
I’d imagine it illusion spells should be able to do that
I'm not a big D&D player by any stretch, but you're videos are always so entertaining!
Hey! I love your channel too. I'm a mini painter and crafter!
One of my friend’s bard cast major image to create an adult dragon jumping from behind a group of trees. It worked super well at driving away another smaller dragon.
The problem, as you mention, is that people like to know the specific effects.
Illusions are only as powerful as the DM decides they'll be, at that moment in time, and further require the DM to allow for 'natural' behavior by characters, NPCs and monsters in a world where reactions and responses are dictated by a dice roll vs. a stat. You create a situation not well bounded by the rules, like "create a scary image to induce a panic," and you have to decide how the guardsmen, their hounds, the innkeeper, and the patrons are going to respond.
There are no rules to dictate what is "most believable," where your DM is the ultimate arbiter, in a game where your character should know better, but a player has no way to judge.
... and then you have people who say "I heard him cast a spell, I want to roll a check to see what it is."
This is the exact reason why spell casters are so much more powerful than non-casters in almost every D&D edition. Magic is so flexible, that it can end encounters in one spell if used creatively. Martials are trapped in the jail of mechanics. Magic Users are practically playing FATE on top of them.
The best part about Illusions is that if done right, they're fun to be on either side of. Silent Image especially with multiple Illusionists around to support with minor illusion. Some hedge mages scare off the big bad adventurers with a level 1 spell and some cantrips.
I can somewhat confirm: played a wizard in a game of GURPS in high school and the spell that I had the most fun with was roughly equivalent to minor illusion.
Most underappreciated Illusion spell in the game is actually mirror image for the fact you get it so early, objectively contributes self survival, and best of all does NOT require concentration.
I thought this was a go to spell that everyone used
On-point about diminishing returns with how fantastic an illusion is. You don't want to provoke investigation! :)
I've been bingeing a bunch of your videos the past few days. I don't know why I haven't seen your channel before. Your content is really thorough and well-thought-out, while also being concise. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into these and then even more so crunching them down to less than 10-minute videos, and I just want to say I appreciate your work.
Glad you like them! I've only been around for 9 months!
@@DungeonMasterpiece I see that, now. You've put out a wealth of quality content in that short amount of time. Bravo! You're doing a great job and I wish you the best in your endeavor.
Dude this is mind blowing! For sure gonna start having some illusion based NPCs and this will be how I play NPCs moving forward!
Illusions are probably some of my favorite and least favorite spells for the exact same reason; you can come up with anything you want, which means that *you* *have to* *come up with* *what* you want. Sure, it's easy to use Minor Illusion to replicate the voice of a dead lieutenant, yelling through a door that he'll hold off the intruding party, and that the reinforcements should make sure there aren't more trying to sneak through their posts. Making Major Image emit the sound of grinding stone as a floor tile you had just been stepping on "raises," "opening" a space in the ceiling from which a stone wall crashes down and "bars" your pursuers, that's immersive; it really sells exactly how your illusion is tricking those that need to be tricked. But it can/will still have something to be Investigated, like the fact there's no weight of impact from an actual stone wall falling and hitting a floor, or a distinct lack of fighting sounds.
But when I want to use an illusion spell to accomplish a task that I have next to no idea how to accomplish, boy does it make me feel (and probably look) like an idiot.
DM: "While [Fighter] is trying to convince the two guards he's not up to anything, what will the rest of you do?"
Me: "I want to Subtle Spell Silent Image to make one of the guards approach our ambush without raising the alarm, we can take this one and [Fighter] can take out the other one."
DM: "Okay, how?"
Me: "Umm... I make the... colors... on the tree...'s fruit... better? Brighter!"
DM: "So do you mean you want them to glow, or..."
Me: "Guhhh... nooooo, just... more vibrant, enticingly vibrant?"
DM: "It's currently night time, I'll say [character] knows they won't really notice a slight color difference."
Me: "Fine, I'll go with the glowing fruits. But they're not gonna be any weird color, just a white-ish backlight that'll make them look nice without drawing literally everyone's attention."
I kinda figure it’s the DMs job to provide a little flexibility here. You are going for a game mechanic result. The specifics are not really necessary if they are going to bog down the game at all. I want to make the fruits weird to distract the guards… done. I strongly doubt the DM has a ridiculously detailed backstory about why it can’t work… unless they make a saving throw.
@@Xplora213 I'd insist on the opposite: it's up to the player to think of something that would realistically distract a guard who's already having to deal with an intruder in heavy armour trying to blag his way past the guard post. That would almost certainly have to be something which was a greater threat to the guards themselves or a breach of the security of what they're duty-bound to protect, not some trick with a luminous peach. Glowing fruit might work on a guard with a WIS of 5 and low morale who'd missed his supper, but even then his mate should have enough sense to stop him wandering off.
The biggest difficulty that I run into is not how to creatively use an illusion spell, but making sure that both myself and the DM are incredibly clear on what the parameters of the illusion spell are before the game begin. I've been in at least one game where I have deliberately shied away from illusion spells because in the pregame discussion I realize that the DM was not going to allow them to shine
"invoke half a dozen mercenaries, all decked in mithril armor" The tyrion method.
Finally someone says it. Illusion magic is underrated. For instance, I have a warlock that uses Minor Illusion regularly as cover and/or an ambush spot. I have her create the illusion of a crate/boulder/pile of snow (playing Rime of the Frostmaiden) and hide within it. It hides her and gives her advantage on her attacks until the enemy sees through her illusion. It gets even better against low Intelligence creatures, especially undead and beasts.
And that is from a cantrip; just think of what you can do with leveled spells.
I just discovered this channel. It is so...good! You've got a good balance of rehearsed speaking style that feels very natural- reminds me almost of Jon Oliver's show. Carefully written but in a natural conversational tone. You've got some great insights and a clearly analytical take on roleplaying games.
😢you’ve broken the spell. He’s EXACTLY like John Oliver with a different accent and different writers!
Player: I cast *any illusion spell*
Bad DM: The NPC doesn't believe it and your spell does nothing
Player: Illusion magic is bad
Slight of hand is also illusion magic meaning if you can find a way to mimic spells using items you can essentially never get counterd spelled.
Then combine it with actual magic for extra chaos.
Lack of the use of Illusionary magic is due to the lack of imagination. This is the same issue with Green Lantern and his ring, he only uses simplistic weapons because he lacks the imagination for more complex weapon types.
The better Green Lantern writers have come up with cool stuff. Jessica Cruz uses stuff like giant spiders and other weird things.
Holy shit the image at 3:20 caught me off guard 🤣
This was a really good video. I would like to bring more illusion spells into my games, this might be the kick in the pants I needed.
Dragons have blindsight, and most illusions, including major image, are basically holograms. They'd realize the wall was illusory instantly. As a DM, I honestly wish some monsters weren't canonically so powerful so players could defeat them in more interesting ways. I had a new player be very excited to cleverly draw fire and use Mirror Image to defend against a dragon, since the spell eats attacks even if the roll and possible damage is very high. Great strategy against most multiattacking monsters, but unfortunately useless against dragons
Today in Masterpiece Theatre: Illusion Magick for your D&D Adventures
At first I felt attacked. Now, inspired and empowered. Thanks DM!
Through the years, I have found Illusion magic to be some of the most powerful spells in the game, not for the ability to deal damage, but for the ability to control the battlefield and manipulate enemies.
Fun trick. Take a large pit or other drop and create the illusion of something covering it that would conceivably belong there, with something wildly inconsistent right at the middle. Explain to the DM that when the person goes to investigate the illusion of the inconsistent thing, they will likely _not_ also be investigating the consistent thing, which they need to walk across to reach it.
7:26 this is some great advice. It also really leans into the idea that all the players, including the DM are in the game as a group together, building the world together.
A lot of this is on the DM, too. I went the route of a full illusion wizard, but the DM kept throwing people at us that somehow always saw through illusions, and my character build was essentially bunk
My Hexbuckler uses Silent Image as heavy obscurement. 15x15x15 Fog Cloud, blizard-like flurry and a heavy swarm of wasps have all worked wonderfully. It's even more effective when I use it in conjunction with Disguise Self. Hiding in a heavy snow flurry is cake when you look like a snowman (think late 1960's X-men's Iceman).
Illusion Magic is basically the Charisma stat of magic, but in reverse. Kind of nebulous, but rather easy to disregard. So many times I've tried to persuade or deceive an NPC and a charisma check is never asked for; illusion seems to very easily be checked against if it's not the tried-and-true "gnome runs around a corner and minor illusions a crate on top of herself".
I think the dimensions given may also influence its usage. Your footsteps, for example; does the alley way terminate within that space inside the player's head to even think of that? I once tried to scare some mobs early on by using minor illusion to make a beholder appear around the corner. I didn't realize beholders were larger than a 5'x5' cube at the time nor that minor illusion couldn't move spaces.
This is probably the best concise guide to illusion magic for 5e that I have found on the Internet. Well done.
I have one player who is always more likely to play an Illusionist than any other type of mage, so I get to see a lot of creative use of his spells. His latest joy is augmenting the Ranger's ability to summon animals by adding more of his own; it's pretty difficult to argue a 'disbelieve' against an illusionary wolf when half of them are real. Illusions are great for dividing the battlefield and crowd control.
use illusion magic to enhance the appearance of cantrips
Forget illusions.
Drop evocations.
Discard divinations.
Embrace necromancy.
part of the problem with illusion magic is related to the first point. In d&d the spells are often just the effect but with illusions you have the gm approval. Ot can often take so long to decide what illusions are allowed that player don't bother
Some of my favorite spells because of one saying "it's as useful as you are creative"
Great takes, and a lot of inspiration for running a problem-solving focused game. Thanks DM.
The real reason nobody uses illusion is because the NPC you're fighting is going to just walk up and touch it and then it's not going to work because every NPC that DM runs is skeptical about the existence of nothing until a player decides to play an illusionist
One of my players was a wizard at an arcane academy and I made it a whole half session of him with the illusion professor of her just drilling into his head how powerful illusions are. She finished this demonstration by casting a Major Image of the President of the country saying terrible things about its citizens. It clicked for him and the next time he leveled up his free spells were both illusion.
Hitting a little too close to home
@@rodrigorodriguez509 I don't know what you're talking about. This is all make-em-ups fantasy.
Illusionists and enchanters have always been hugely unsung hero's and absolutely game changers in encounters across pretty much every edition. In 5e illusionists and Enchanters are absolutely wild to play, combined with powerful buff/debuff spells along with being able to just control the space they inhabit in a way that other casters can't is a wild ride.
A shame Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic (phantom evocation spells from 1e and 2e) was not included in later editions, especially 5e. Also, phantasm killer and weird were far more deadly.
Most spells back in 1/b/x/2 were way more deadly lol
Thank you for another quick glimpse into the world of being a DM!
I designed a solution. Very good video. It makes the class fun now.
we were doing 3.5/pathfinder modules for war of the lance and my husband was playing a red robe illusionist. he kept trying to do illusions and the dm didnt allow any of it.
eg: player is on the other side of an enemy's sleet storm spell. player casts invisibility. enemy can see him anyway because of where the snow isnt falling. but the player is on the other side! not in the storm!
eg 2: we are running in a natural cave system from a bunch of dwarves who are chasing us. we find a small side tunnel, player cast hallucinatory terrain to make a cave wall, covering the entrance to the tunnel. the running dwarves dont stop and spend time to investigate, they immediately see through the illusion as they run up to it. forcing us players, who fully expected at minimun a round of investigation by the dwarves, to be caught up in initiative checks for combat.
the only spells we were allowed to use with reliable RAW results were evocations and similar combat spells. not even my white robe abjurer could reliably use abjurations!
eg: the white dragon casts protection from energy: fire. player, "i dont get a check to identify that spell? nor use my readied action to counterspell (w/ dispel magic)?" "no, you dont know what spell it is"
what?!?!
My favorite thing to do is combine illusion magic with something more tangible. Like pretending to have explosion magic but I just preemptively placed some powder horns.....there went the town.
Makes me think of the Mysterio illusion scenes from Far From Home 👍
My young ones first wizard doorway-cheesed an orc in the woods with an Illusory wall of trees. He would peek out, cast a can trip, and then run around the wall. Because he was behaving as if the wall was real, the orc had no reason to think anything other than this guy had conjured some trees. Because he couldn't see through the wall of trunks, he couldn't use his aggression ability to close the distance as a bonus action. After a couple rounds of ring around the Rosie, the orc was out of hit points
I’m really digging this series!
My Illusions test on any potential GM is to use a low level illusion to create a Mirror next to a light source. Does the mirror reflect light? Does the mirror block light? Does the mirror create light? Do I see my Reflection? Does my reflection move with me? Can I see through the back of the Mirror? etc etc
Also like all things in the game world if magic is common then NPCs especly trained NPCs should know about especly if that type of magic is common... Like trained town guards should know to double check papers of anyone passing through they hgate in case of normal forgery but also illusions. Which if they can't spot the exact spell or magic type they'll know about magic it's self and it's limits. Ofcorse it all depends mostly on the setting but still.
Sometimes running a higher level illusionist, you almost have too many options. It can lead to analysis paralysis.
Tell me more about this. I've never had this issue. Describe this more please!
Too many options for a newer and even experienced players.
On the bright side, using an investigation check in a combat costs an action, so even if the NPCs make the check right away, it still wastes most of their turn.
I've also heard some people say "well when the first guy makes the check, he can call it out to his allies." While I agree that this is valid and logical for them to do, they still need to make the check to tell for themselves that it's an illusion. Were I to be caught in this situation as a DM, the best I might do for the other NPCs is give them advantage on the roll. They don't necessarily know which parts of the illusion are real and which are just a magical disguise, after all! Maybe that rock wall is mostly real, but however many passages that are carved into it are all covered in illusions to look like they're part of the wall. One wrong move and people are running into walls, not through an illusion!
Personally i like illusion magic a lot, minor illusion being a 5ft square was the reason when i played a wizard that they were just about 5ft tall so they could make static images of themselves resting or reading to misdirect and buy themselves a few seconds and a advantageous position when they suspected a ambush.
But what i usually see with people and illusion spells is that they often just take Minor Illusion, vastly overestimate it's capabilities (it's just a cantrip! not a high level illusion but smaller!) and then never invest in higher level illusion magics.
Minor illusion is good for minor things, but you need about 3rd or 5th level illusions to really pull some stunts. Currently I'm playing a cleric so can't do any of that for a long time but for my next character i'm planning to really specialize in illusions, perhaps trick the party a bit too if we're still doing online sessions by then.
My favourite use of illusion “magic” in literature is in a Naruto fight, of all places-
There’s a character called “Danzo” in one of the later seasons, whose arm is full of gross special eyes that he uses to fuel his attacks. The guy he’s fighting (Sasuke) uses an illusion technique to convince him that he has JUST one more of these eyes available than he actually has.
It’s just one tiny piece of information, but it’s enough for Sasuke to win the battle because he caused his opponent to make a fatal mistake. Great fight.
Itachi pointing
My main character is an Arcane Trickster who is an illusion wizard college dropout, and I've had a lot of fun like this. There's not a single session in which our party doesn't make use of illusions, such as a dog barking to distract guards, or making a bush seem bigger in order to hide behind it. The other day our sorceress used an illusion to cause a hydra to bite itself, which was great.
I have an idea for illusion magic. The Illusionist isn't actually casting spells. They have an assistant, a variety of different tools and proficiency in sleight of hand. They are a charismatic Lore Bard. Of course for misdirection purposes, they play a flute which is their "spell focus". The targets are so transfixed on the flute playing that they don't notice the assistant using illusion trickery under their noses.
Each day, the Illusionist Bard and the assistant talk about how to prepare their "spells" in advance.
I’ve had dms who will have npcs “walk into” illusions to dispel them or not react to illusions in any meaningful way. Other spells have specific predictable effects.
That is just bad dming
The most powerful character I ever created was an Illusionist-Enchanter.
The problem with illusions like Major Image is that enemies *_don't_* have to make saves, or initiate a check to investigate it ... they just have to touch it. Since "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." This renders them completely useless, as inevitably someone or something is going to touch the illusion and instantly reveal it's nature to everyone around.
If the illusion took place entirely in the targets mind, so that they did have to make saves in order to overcome it... then it would be useful. As no matter how hard they tried to bash through the wall, it would never break (even if in the real world, they were literally throwing themselves through open air, and landing on the ground ... they wouldn't realize this, and still think they were stuck behind the "wall", or whatever it is).
I think illusion magic is even more powerful in osr games than standard DnD. Like you said in another video, basically everything in the game is combat.
The Black Company wizards Goblin and One Eye use illlusion magic to great effect. Always a source of inspiration
When I present a challenge to my players, I always want them to win in the end. I don't ever plan something with the intention that the players should lose. If they go and face a force obviously stronger than them and I didn't plan for it, then yeah they can get their asses kicked, but only because I didn't plan for it.
If I plan some sort of encounter, and a player can present to me a way to use the illusion to completely bypass it, then great! That's LESS number crunching than having to slog through a combat.
Ultimately, I feel like Illusion magic can be summed up by, "My level 5 players keep trying to use Illusion spells to hide but never fully read or understand the text to realize that you can't physically touch illusions."
Honestly, if that one element of Illusion went away, players would abuse the fuck out of the spells. Eeveryone wants to use them, not many actually do - because of that one aspect.
My problem is people forget that range or size ov a spell is all able to be manipulated! You dont have to do the max range (fireball can be cast as a 5ft sphere)
this all depends on the DM and how much they want to give you a hard time, i could imagine the DM making the guards literally start stabbing their spears into every normal-looking empty crate and stone wall because the DM knows you're behind it and wants to rationalize why they'd find you.
Congratulations. The guards are now paranoid, and moving slower as they poke everything. You can use this, at least with reasonable DM.
The biggest problem with illusion magic is that once the illusionist has become famous enough, their enemies will know "Oh, that's the illusion guy. Don't believe anything he conjured"
That's the time to bring in the real deal. Then your illusions are still doing work even when you're not using them.
As a DM(keep in mind I usually end up ruling that the NPCs have no reason to check for illusion), I struggle with these and other spells when factoring in spell components. While yes, *typically* guards chasing a rogue down the alley have no reason to suddenly stop and investigate crates on their chase - are they *so* far back that a rogue had time to pull out a 'bit of fleece' somatic the spell AND, most of all, outside of earshot that they wouldn't hear the magic being incantated? Guards in a fantasy world would probably be aware of a spell being said when they heard one, no?
Looking at your dragon example with the Wall of Stone, if no granite was seen being used during the casting of the spell, is it unreasonable to believe a dragon with Intelligence into the high 20s, knows that a bit of fleece(used in casting Major Image) is *not* used in a Wall of Stone spell. Even if it didn't know that it is a small brick of granite? I'm not sure and the usual response I find is people simply ignore components to begin with, and yet complain about the gap between spellcasters and martial - well yeah, imagine if the Martials weren't required to have their weapons or armor or any limit to the amount of Action Surges and other abilities they could do in a day, because that's what forgoing components is doing.
An illusionist with a wand of magic missile, fireball, cone of cold or whatever offensive spell you like, can wreak absolute havoc on his enemies. Alternatively by firing the wand to cause harm, and later using illusions to minic the wands effects PCs may find themselves diving into the trapped alcoves and insets to take cover from the wands effects. Only to later find themselves disbelieving an actual fireball and thus negating their own saving throws. It makes for some bitter players, but the wand is usually reward enough to restore their mirthful nature once the illusionist has been dealt with. And if the party captures the illusionist it's always fun to role play him offering to make the newly disfigured PCs beautiful again if only they'd allow him to use his magic. Hilarity and zaniness ensue if the Players should accept the offer. Illusionists make for excellent villians. As well as some of the most creative PCs possible.
AD&D had the best system for illusions!
Problem is major image is summed up with the letters VSM. Especilly the Vocal components, illusions simpl become a lot less powerfu when people close to you hear you cast a spell.
Illusion magic is my favourite school of magic. One of the issues with Illusion magic though with my experience is that its so very DM dependent. Majority of DMs don't understand that its not a save spell. I've had plenty of situations where DMs would just right away have NPCs do investigation checks even though it made no sense to.
If you have a DM who can't handle illusions then they will be very bad to ever really consider in a campaign. Despite this, That's why you go Wizard Illusionist so you can make your illusions real lol
I'm dying to play an illusion wizard, after playing a Mind specialised character from Mage the Awakening I have my head wrapped around what to do to screw with people. :D
I got creative with illusion playing a shadow monk ninja
Illusion is insanely op. I remember playing a wizard that saw the bbeg through scrying and when we were gonna storm his underground base while he was out looking for us, I conjured an image of him that "dragged" me into it. I then brought out our warforged barbarian from our bag of holding and took out most of his forces from inside and weakened the defenses enough for the rest of the party to join us.
I think you rubbed right up against a big part of the problem, without saying it.
The VAST majority of people who play d&d (players and DMs alike) cannot conceive of anything other than damage as a solution to a problem. You'd be amazed how often both DMs and players are mystified as to why I'd bother to cast Hypnotic Pattern. These same players and DMs will start rolling their Investigation checks the instant I announce an illusion spell, without even a pretense of justification. The ONLY thing they care about is getting back to killing.
Unless the d&d community, as a whole, starts seeing past the damage numbers, Illusion magic is just part of the list of things that are useless.
Illusion = Imagination. Imagination is required not from just the player but the DM. Plus only OSE really rewards you with EXP for not killing a monster but for getting the treasure.
I agree. That is all I have to say. Great video.
I mean,
You said it. But the reason illusion magic isn't used isn't because its not good but because in dnd it is massively under explained AND there are so few benchmarks to guide dms on powerlevel. So a responsible/considerate player at this point will either a) approach the dm and ask, or b) use fireball.
Of course there is the larger issue with dnd spell descriptions being exact, AND basing play experience on those exact definitions. When they suddenly break that convention and dont give dms tools to manage the spells, you get lots of "please just dont" from dms who already are doing most of the work. Spell descriptions are q two edged sword, if you hang everything on them, then dont be suprised when players play as youve written your game.
Illusions can be incredibly powerful. It all depends on how you use them.
If a "mage" cast a spell and a whirling wall of blades appear, it could delay pursuit, giving the PC'S a chance to heal or hide. It could cause a rival mage to cast his Dispell Magic on the illusion instead of on you.
If you used Ventriloquism, it could project the sound of a group coming up behind your enemies and cause them to turn around to face the "newcomers" . This would give thieves a chance to sneak off and backstab unwary targets.
You really need to be a creative player when you play an Illusionist!
its also a problem of illusion spell getting nerfed by every single new edition, making them worse then they were before. They used to be literally real and able to kill and damage until disbelieved. Also the line of shadow spells and shadow monsters that were partially real even when disbelieved. All removed and replaced by spells that even with a generous DM and great setup are mindly usefull on occasion.
Didn't know about investigation.
It's really amazing to me how frequently I hear that, and people just assume it's a wisdom save.
The important thing to note though is that as per major image: "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an Illusion, because things can pass through it." So you can just try to put your hand through the wall and automatically realize its illusory. Investigation is if you want to observe it from a distance without interaction.
Yep i'm a huge fan of illusion magic and the way its handled in 5e .
Illusion has the problem that is too DM dependant so it may vary wildly from overpowered to useless. I think the cantrip Minor illusion causes more trouble to illusion magic in general, because DMs may tend to allow too much things to do with it, which can make other illusion spells obsolete. Where is the point having Silent image if you can already do everything with Minor illusion, which you can cast at will? So any class that picks Minor illusion as a cantrip can do the same thing as Illusionist Wizard. One example is getting (total) cover from enemies or even 'blinding' them in the middle of combat. Using the whole action to get rid of a rather strong cantrip effect can be a big deal. I know players should be rewarded for their creativity, but that example is more finding rules holes than anything else.
One thing most people forget (this might not be the case in 5e anymore i dont know enough about 5e to say) illusions arent “fake until dispelled” they are “REAL until dispelled”. Most people will try to say “oh it doesnt matter if you have an illusion if i hit it with my sword, i can tell its an illusion”… no, no you cant. Touching it once grants a save, so if you pass that, sure you can pass your sword through, BUT if you failed even ONCE against that illusion, you do not get any more free saves no matter how often you touch the illusion (it takes an action to investigate, so at worst, your illusion just became a 1 turn stun spell, that also gets a save, which is already awesome) so in other words, if you fail your save, you must act as if the wall is real, the wall IS real to you, and you can not “cheese” the illusion by ignoring it. That said, yes you can get advantages against illusions, but if the dc is high, or if the onlooker is dumb, it wont matter, they wont pass the dc.
Now imagine instead of using illusion walls, you make major images of a god. It floats above the ground so you cant interact with it easily. You MUST act as if the god was real. Easiest way to shut down an encounter, you just introduce an authority who says “stop”. Even if one person passes, the rest might not, and the one who passed is helpless to aid his friends (pointing out the illusion would grant advantage, but thats not a big deal)
I love Illusion magic in D&D, but can never bring myself to create a character that uses them again. Too much of what makes illusions powerful relies on the DM not being a dick.
Throwing up an illusory wall of fire, when this is an established and common things wizards can do, only to have all the NPC's in the area stop combat and investigate the wall was heart breaking and kinda ruined illusions for me.
Maybe one day i'll find a DM who will be cool with illusions.
So all of the enemies passed a check to determine that the spell cast was an illusory fire wall? And they all gave up an action to investigate? And they all passed their saves? Nah, i would walk out of that game so fast
Wall of fire is a bit tricky since enemies usually just try to run through it (this is D&D after all). While in reality nobody would do that, in D&D just deciding to eat the damage to get to the enemy is a tactic that gets used all the time when it comes to Wall of Fire.
Which for an illusion automatically reveals it, since any physical interaction discovers it's an illusion. The investigation check is only for if you want to examine it from a distance (without direct interaction). So you can always figure out something is an illusion by firing an arrow at something, or just trying to walk through it.
One ability destroys illusions and that really bothers me that I can as an illusionist be destroy by just one ability.
Which is it?
Truesight or spell resistance foil illusions but those are both pretty high level