The Problem With Illusions
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Illusion magic affords so much creativity to players, that it's impossible to plan for. Let's talk about Illusions, of choice, game design, and the spell school itself.
#dnd #baldursgate3 #baldursgateiii #5e #ttrpg
Minor Illusion can't create a "dancing illusion light show", as it's either a sound, or a static image. It can't move, you can't fake it being an object in your hand since it's perfectly still. Having any sort of illusions in a computer game is showing a valiant effort, especially for high level illusions. Many games avoid them entirely due to how problematic they are: their only limit is the players' imaginations. They simply have to be basic for pre-programmed and scripted games. Gamers have to accept this when they play.
You can do a pretty good job of covering illusions in games by categorizing the situations players will want to use illusions and giving generic tools for that task. Like distraction, in RP some things will be more distracting to certain characters than others, but a videogame will just give you a generic "distraction" illusion that works on anyone and you can imagine it as whatever you want.
The problem comes when you *need* a very specific illusion for a very specific task, but in a game where you only get 3 options to choose from in dialogue those limitations will not feel particularly out of place.
The limitations also rely heavily on how much your assets cost for the game. A game with fancy animations, 3d models and full voice acting is going to be much much more expensive to implement freedom of choice than a text adventure. So even though they *could* do it, they just don't have the budget.
Frankly, illusions are even problematic in a TTRPG. Spells like Fireball are very simple, there are well defined rules and interactions. With illusions, the player and GM make everything up on the spot. Do NPCs fall for the illusion? how do they act around it? what if they see someone else pass through an illusion of a solid object? and so on.
I've heard many (horror) stories about how player and GM expectations clash regarding illusions and enchantments, because the rules are very vague and open to interpretation.
Gave up ever using illusions, the group I play with consistently meta game my illusions away because apparently; everyone in the world of faerun is an archmage tier illusionist.
I'm wondering if there are any illusionists in a Powered by the Apocalypse or YZ:E setting, coz in that your degree of success would like you pick from a list of outcomes. In ALIEN, Analyse lets you get truthful responses to relevant questions. E.g Is it human, is it alive, what is the greatest source of danger.
Also I'm thinking of Sleep (the spell) that has often cared about HP, Illusions could be total Wis/Int or something.
"Frankly, illusions are even problematic in a TTRPG. Spells like Fireball are very simple, there are well defined rules and interactions."
It's just a DnD mindset: GM does not allow X, because it is too strong in the combat.
For example, FATE uses the outcome of a conflict, not the result of a specific spell. The player freely describes what his illusion or fireball does within certain limits.
The interactions with illusions (at least in 5e) are actually really well defined.
The problem is that everyone seems to ignore them (which is not something they do with fireball).
Do NPCs fall for the illusion? Yes, it's a spell with no saving throw. It You don't get to just disbelieve - that requires an action and a successful Intelligence(Investigation) check. What happens when.... that's detailed in the spell descriptions.
@@rich63113 Illusions do have saving throws; either it will be an outright save usually intelligence, wisdom, or charisma. Or they have to make an investigation check that beats your spell save DC.
It's just that often times the rules get hand waved away as a deus ex machina or a "well they saw you cast the spell so they know it's an illusion".
Been subscribed for about a month now, I love how deep you get into your topics and always look forwards to your new videos
I appreciate that! Thanks for sticking around and enjoying, I've many more ideas in the tank.
Thanks
-Tom.
My thoughts as of 7 min of the video, Illusion magic leaves too much for the caster to decide ie.: What a Fireball is everyone know, but illusion can be anything i can think of. So in a video game it has to be precreated by the developers and designers, and that would inherently limit the spells. Just now i tried to think of a plausible way to implement Illusion magic but i failed to do so.
Creative illusions could work in video-games if it's a more systems-based design that promotes variety of emergent behaviors, it would essentially work like a small-scale sandbox game, where you spawn items or creatures etc at will, and let all the normal behaviors and reactions to be triggered, except things might lack certain effects, no damage, no collision etc; you could introduce initial characteristics to things, like velocity, temperature etc, and certain basic moods or directives to the creatures, rage, lure, friendly, protective, hungry etc, with specific targets or in general. And it could have a mechanic where you need to study what you wanna be able to replicate, to gradually build a menu of options without overwhelming players with choice paralysis or making them too OP from the start.
I have always struggled as a GM with illusions - usually my players simply try to simulate Magic User's spells or make the illusion so complicated it takes an hour to explain. I don't envy programmers trying to anticipate options with dialog trees. Options take space, and space is money. AI's current ability doesn't allow for "none of the above" player choice.
If you could give Minor Illusion ten features that are most commonly used in D&D tabletop for use in the game, would that be enough?
I was so bummed when I realised the restrictions on disguise self in bg3.
For what it's worth, I don't mind if a DM doesn't maintain the illusion perfectly. If there's an "ehm..." before the decision, or even the "I'm gonna have to think about this". Maybe it's because I've dabbled in DMing myself, maybe it's because I sometimes struggle with RP myself even if I only have to play my own character, or maybe it's just basic empathy. But as long as you come up with an interesting (not necessarily successful) result to my dumb ideas, I'm happy.
I remember playing Star Trek Online back in the day, and I had unlocked the original Wells-class Timeship.
Then at some point, they did that "Yesterday's Enterprise" thingy with the time-travel mission and stuff, and you're a miner and trying to work towards resetting the timeline to what it was ment to be...and the whole time I thought to myself...
"Gee...If only my character, armed with a Temporal Starfleet Phaser, an Aeon-class Shuttle, and a Wells-class Timeship, could have helped this crew of Starfleet Temporal Agents in some way!" *eyeroll*
It wasn't long after that I stopped playing... well, that and a bug I couldn't get out of.
Anyway...
In 3.5, I once made a Ghaele Eladrin of Eberron (So, a Fey Lord) who specialised their magic in Illusion and Enchantment (minor in Conjuration for those sweet Teleportation spells)...
My GM loved the idea, but said it wouldn't fit with the game, just because it was a "Dwarf Game"... so I worked on some other ideas... but the GM loved it so much, I think he still has the character saved up for an NPC idea (and by "I think", I mean, I know he does).
Because, Illusions and Enchantments are really kool...
Mind-affecting, Phantasm, Shadow... the subcatagories are great!
5E and video games really wrecked that...
I do appreciate the look on a GM's face when I explain the next high key insane, low key kinda brilliant thing I try to do...but I do try to then gently jump the train back on the rails after I've had my fun.
Thanks!
I am using BG3 to replace my DM (It's me, I'm the DM)
You have been Tom and kinda out of frame.
viewer annoiance done, I loved this video & I always enjoy how you make me rethink a lot of things about TTRPGs.
Ahaha fair point! I was a little annoyed with that myself but this was the best take :'(
Glad you were still interested in it!
-Tom
Kinda wish you would get to the point.. i want to know what is wrong with illusions. Not why dungeon's and dragons is so special.
The illusion of illusions in Baldur's Gate 3.
Nice love this
I don't understand why people hate alignment so much. Isn't the battle between good and evil what fantasy is all about? Like LotR, or Star Wars?
Those have good and evil factions. Luke or Frodo's morality are supposed to be in question as much as their martial prowess.
Luke fails as a combatant, and Frodo fails to resist temptation. Neither cleanly fit's why someone chooses to play a Fighter or Good character, and the external designation reduces drama if public, and reduces drama if adhered to.
@@Dialethian I'm not sure what Fighter has to do with anything, but both Luke and Frodo are undeniably good.
I'm not so sure about that.
Frodo is undeniably brave, and Luke is undeniably heroic ( notwithstanding the later filmic additions, which I happen to enjoy adding a bit of complexity).
This does not make them 'Good'. Luke is, of course, solely responsible for the mass death of an entire administrative arm of the government, (sure, it was a fascist authoritarian regime, but was everyone on the death star a fascist? Arguable) after all, there's no mention of rescuing any political or combat prisoners in the original film, which there certainly would have been.
And Frodo's 'goodness' is the central question of the text. He is brave, sure, but not as brave as Sam. He becomes corrupted in a meaningful way by the evil of the ring. Does he remain good when he is weighed down by his own (temporary) greed at the climax? Who's to say. Fantasy is far more complex than a simple moral binary, although many properties can be enjoyed thus.
@@Grungeon_Master It wasn't Sam who was carrying the burden the whole time. He was carrying Frodo. Which is hella important, don't get me wrong, but it was Frodo who was carrying the ring, with all its corrupting influence, the entire time. Even if he succumbed at the very end of the road (when the ring's influence is at its strongest), that's far more willpower than most people would hope to maintain for that long.
I also do not understand how that would make him evil, since he has not done anything evil.
I also do not agree that the destruction of the Death Star is in any way morally ambiguous. How many people were on that thing isn't really relevant. That thing has already wiped out a planet and is confirmed to be able to wipe out more.
Not only is it a good thing that the Death Star was destroyed. It was in fact Luke's _duty_ to destroy it as a paragon of good.
Also I believe that throwing the f-word around actually devalues both the word as well as the group of people you're throwing it at.
To the "double fall damage from falling" have u ever tossed a chicken😂 they float
Maybe if they didn’t spend so much money and time animating sex scenes that most people will not see and adding genital customization options that nobody cares about, they might have added a few more illusion rp elements. Don’t pretend that it wasn’t possible.
You are wrong about nobody caring about it, but you are right that it's always a matter of priorities. I think it's very hard to satisfy what people really want out of illusion magic. In comparison it's a lot easier to satisfy people who do want those kinds of options and having the game uncensored. It's just like adding a few more hairstyles. The sex scenes are more time and money intensive, absolutely, but there are definitely people who care about that and there's even articles about "how to romance X in Baldur's Gate 3" so there's definitely interest there. I think in this case they saw that it was possible to decently satisfy gamers that want those kind of things but pretty much impossible to fully satisfy people that want illusion magic to be much more flexible.
Personally, I want both. There are probably things they should have cut in favor of better illusion magic but it's a tricky choice on what to include and not. I also think a lot of dialogue options and quests would be very hard to design if illusion magic was a lot more powerful, so it was probably a balancing decision as well. I won't pretend it wasn't possible to expand illusion magic and make it more useful (I'd love that too), but I think it's a tricky thing to do well while maintaining everything else they wanted in this game.
@@danielhughes3758Fuck the people who care about that. Porn is available freely online. Why should porn be in my videogame?
They could add the use of illusions in sex scenes LOL
The audio is terrible. I can't hear you at all
Turn your sound on.
Turn the audio up?