Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:27 Pre-Heresy Design Breakdown 5:11 Pre-Heresy Design Analysis 7:36 Pre-Heresy Art 9:58 Pre-Heresy Design vs Lore 17:31 Pre-Heresy Final Notes 18:23 Post Heresy Design Breakdown 25:10 Post Heresy Design Analysis 26:23 Post Heresy Design vs Lore 31:12 Post Heresy Final Notes 33:12 Redesign 38:30 Outro 39:00 Post Credit Joke
I have to say I really love this series. Design philosophy is something that does interest me quite a bit, and I have a tiny bit of a fascination with 40k in particular. You seem to be going in numerical order for the legions, and I just know I'll have to wait a while for my favorite Legion, the XVth. My Thousand Son dusty boys are certainly worth the wait, though!
A lot of us wanted to jump to 11th legion after we did second but we will get there if we get the views... which we are to degrees but we have really been having some trouble lately - Cal
@@thomassavage-hx6ux yeah but I understand why people make the correction and I am not going to be up in arms about an error that is an error. We try and take responsibility for our stuff ups that way if we are defending a position that people disagree with, they know we a defending a position not just being defensive - Cal
The Iron Warriors Mk VI upgrade helmets to show some of the ancient Greek inspiration for the leader's helm. Aside from that, a lot a kitbashes our there help try to sell the Olympia-inspired culture like plumed helms, shields and power spears, etcetera. Some of the Horus Heresy transfers can help with the cultural origins of each legion too.
I think the plume helmets could help a lot but... We weren't sure where the line was when they stopped becoming what they were sold as, the Iron Warriors not the Greek legion with industrial flare. We think if anything it should be opposite way around the Industrial Legion with the Greek flare - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow The thing about Perturabo is he very much had a lot of disdain for his homeworld. He refused to incorporate most of their cultural flair into his legion on purpose. He would later go on to subject his entire homeworld to harsh punishment, killing large portions of it after it rebelled against him.
I think there was a lore bit where they found ancient Hazzard stripes and that made some some happen but I can't remember from where that came was - Cal
I think the black and yellow stripes were a part of Perturabo's (their leader) personal heraldry before he took command of the Legion, and was then added to their markings. But I am not sure how recent an addition that is to the lore. Like they said in the video, black and yellow have been used to represent "danger" in both nature and industry for a long time!
Iron Warriors have such a solid colour palette and leaving it relatively unchanged in a redesign is certainly a good idea, the only thing I would personally change for a post-heresy Iron Warriors army would be the change of the lighter silvery primary back to their pre-heresy iron primary, not just because its fitting as they are the Iron Warriors, but also because that darker colour choice fits their overall attitude and personality as a legion, maybe some added industrial aspects like custom helmets for some Astartes that almost look similar to a welder's helmet with some personal markings on the front of them for added intimidation factor. However their Chaos Terminators with the massive tusks always look badass in artwork so apart from making their colour a bit darker, nothing would change The Iron Warriors are one of my favourite legions, because of their colour palette, their lore and their lack of belief in Chaos, but they view it as a lesser of 2 evils if it means the Imperium's destruction
I think welders masks could be more interesting, instead of trying to show the Greek origin go even harder into the industrial look could be good that may have been a better way to go - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I always thought that Post-Heresy should focus on the industrious nature of the IWs even harder, now that their homeworld is long gone, therefore that Greek heritage was lost when Olympia was too, definitely would show their stoic "Iron Within, Iron Without" motto, showing how their home is no more, and shouldn't waste time looking back on such a time, and spend that time working to defeat the Imperium
@@azurehorizon6097 100% something to think about, I wonder how you could go harder into the industrial look as you said. I mean welder style helmets would be good but I am not sure beyond that. It would be rather comical if all of their 'bare head' still wore construction hats - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I have seen minis of Iron Warriors being painted with a greasy or dirty wash to give them a grimy look to them, as if they've been working hard creating Daemon Engines and other weaponry for Chaos, I've even seen some minis of Dreadnoughts with four legs instead of the usual two, those legs showing a more mechanical design than the original. I agree though, it would be difficult to make the Iron Warriors look more industrial than they already are, I feel its a situation where once you know exactly what to use, it would look amazing once put into practise
I would like to see them more pre-oil industrial, or steampunk if you want to call it so. Imagine their backpacks as furnaces and their weapons as blacksmith tools. Some smoke pouring out of exhaust valves. Also if adding something, while keeping their pragmatic nature, make them wear equipment that can be used in other roles besides warriors, this is, crafters, smiths, and so. Like, Melta or energy weapons inspired on welding equipment, so that could be used to improvise a barricade mid battle. Get some inspiration from vashtorr or genstealer cults.
So the Greek theming is a bit of a retcon too, because both the name Perturabo and his homeworld Olympia (which were the only tidbits of lore for a long while) were actually references to Alister Crowley. Crowley wrote the book Perdurabo (Latin for "I Will Endure") and he famously got into a "Magic Wizard Duel" (embarrassing shouting match) with W.B. Yeats in the "Battle of Blythe Road" near Kensington Olympia. The Greek stuff was likely added after writers didn't get the obscure reference with "Olympia."
So pretty much in agreement with what I said on that point I am guessing? But I wonder if it is a retcon if it isn't something that has been fleshed out... hmm something to think about - Cal
11:13 She is NOT wrong here! The Iron Warriors may have a reputation for being slow and methodical while conducting their siege operations, but when they managed to force a breach, and it is time to storm it, they hit VERY HARD! Also, something that was not mentioned, they are also famously OCCUPIERS. At the start of the Horus Heresy, no other Legion was occupying more worlds than the Iron Warriors. It was one of the reasons for why Perturabo resented the Imperium, his Legion was so broken up and scattered, unlike most other Legions who were allowed to fight as a whole force.
I just want to say these videos are not only giving off interesting takes in terms of art and lore, also it's very friendly to non-English speakers as both the pronunciation are very clear and the speed of talking is slow enough to catch up
We really do try with the audio even when the quality was bad. People may be surprised how many retakes we do. It's important to us to deliver a quality product and we are glad that it has helped people such as yourself 😌 - Cal
Just dropping in to say hi. I caught your segment in Arthur Bones' 40K subscriber video, and really enjoyed it. I've sub scribed and am working through your back catalog today. Love it! Glad to have found y'all.
Thank you so much as a new viewer we would love to know what interests you and what doesn't after watching? We are very active in the comments you will find I hope you enjoy your stay in our little digital home 🏡 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I am particularly enjoying the Design vs Lore series so far, and hope it continues beyond just the Astartes. I would love to see the take on factions like the Custodes, Harlequins, some Guard regiments, or some of the successor chapters.
Thus far we are trying to do what is more popular which means Astartes but we have an idea for a video about What your army's colours says about you: Bugs! which will be about Helldivers, Starship troopers and Tyrranids - Cal
I was actually surprised how sunny pretty much hit the nail on the head with her assumptions. The iron warriors were definitely one of if not the most reliable space marine legions and they were send to do the worst jobs no one else wanted to without complaints and got them done.
Well I am not quite sure I would call them assumptions because it was more guessing based of design. I think one of the things we hope this series does, is it showing just how much design communicates - Cal
There is a bit of their pre-heresy lore where because it was such a bad experience for regular humans to serve with them, Horus (pre chaos) actually made being attached to them a punishment. Think of prisoners being assigned to work gangs, and then these guys use them to sweep mine fields by hand rather than use their good machinery even before the heresy. Also I didn't see much in the designs that emphasized the Siege attack aspect. So in a post heresy redesign perhaps there is something to the idea of more heavy chains (think of engine hoists or jailers), and more brutal and severe aesthetics, perhaps more bio-mechanical siege beasts. Or it could lean more into body horror as their Primarch was a master of machines and what is the body but a machine with new problematic "squishy" parts. Perhaps big battering rams of hulking monstrosities lead in chains by certain Iron Warrior keepers. Or more of the Shield Wall concept
For a new design idea, you could swap out the large hazard stripes for a black and yellow greek/Roman wave patterns as trim or accents. The iron warriors would have time for simple geometric patterns. Old diagrams for artillery firing solutions mixed in with old siege diagrams drawn in grease pen on their armor. Instead of featureless iron for the body focus on multiple metal tones to show their pragmatism in cannibalizing enemy power armor. This presence of warriors callous and calculating, wearing jagged and shattered armor after being shelled and shot for centuries. Iron warriors who aren’t clean lines and dull iron, but dead hearted monsters chewed up and spat out in the jaws of war. Love your content. Keep Rocking Compadres!
Thanks for the compliment. Some of those ones are as a friend of mine says "have to a smoke and a think on it" nether of smoke but I think you get it - Cal
The practice of the killing of a 10th of the soldiers by the other 9/10ths is a practice known as decimation, and it dates back to the Roman Empire. Ironic since Mr Roman Roboute Guilliman himself was the one mentioned as wanting to sanction Perturabo for it. That being said, Perturabo's depiction is very... inconsistent. Some writers frame him as being very petulant, and the reason the Iron Warriors took so many hard jobs was at the insistence of Perturabo himself. The lack of honors mostly being Perturabo refusing to celebrate his legion himself and sort of expecting the rest of the Imperium to do it for him. From this telling, Perturabo's complaints and problems are mostly self inflicted, or at the very least he does very little to remedy them himself. Too stubborn to change his ways to get what he says he wants. Though others do play this straight, where Perturabo really was an unsung hero who was just left out in the cold and taken for granted one too many times..
I think both the Lion and Iron Lord suffer from the I change authors all the time issue. Like I vaguely remember in one book it was like he (Perturabo) was a tormented soul and he even hated how petty he could be but he knew he could be great. He feared the gaze of the eye of terror mentioned it once to the wrong person and then shut up about it ever more. Then it was like... I am a man child look at me rage. It would be nice if GW gave some consistency at least to primarchs - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Nice, also incase if you two plan tackling other series/franchises, I'd be curious to see you guys analysis the design and colors of the Flood from Halo (namely the first Halo games and Halo Wars), just a cheeky suggestion
@@ChaseDaOrk3767 So we considered doing the Tyranids/Starship Troopers/Hell Divers recently But since we are having algorithm troubles our ability to move outisde of spot is difficult... - Cal
I actually think the pre-heresy Iron Warriors actually *were* pretty honourable. Not in the fancy, showy, laurels-and-parades way like with Ultramarines or Blood Angels or what have you, but they absolutely *were* consistent, reliable, loyal, honest, and did what was asked of them without complaint; exactly the kind of more "working class" honour she meant. *Perturabo* was a seething pile of resentment and jealousy and rage, sure, but that wasn't his sons' fault, nor was that quality initially reflected in them. I think it's even canon that they had the most loyalists out of any of the traitor legions? Post-heresy, they're hateful, sadistic, cold-hearted monsters straight from the industrial furnaces of hell, absolutely, but back before the heresy they were just hard-working soldiers.
So just clarifying because I think this what you are saying which is pre-heresy before they met Perturabo they were just "working class" soldiers. like "were consistent, reliable, loyal, honest" before they met him and they were kind of ruined by him? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Sort of. But even at the outset of the heresy they weren’t *that* bad yet, though bitterness and resentment had definitely begun to set in. I think it was the heresy itself, the scouring, and then the ten thousand years in space hell that *really* turned them into the monsters they are, though having Perturabo as a primarch certainly didn’t help. I think some legions fell mainly because of geneseed, some mainly because of cultural or home planet reasons, some mainly because of circumstances, and some mainly because of their primarch, and I think the fourth are an example of the latter.
@@nataliereed4238 yeah some people have told me additional things about them that they were pretty much bad before good old Peter Turbo... But I haven't seen those sources or had the time to check into it, so I am a little in limbo on it because I believe this person. But as the saying goes believe but confirm - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Yeah… And also with 40k most things are also open to interpretation, too. Especially when there’s inconsistencies between how different writers depict them. I wouldn’t say people expressing a differing view on their pre-Perty character are wrong, I just meant to express that I don’t think Sunny was too far off the mark with the “hard-working, reliable, honourable, get the job done” vibes she got from the design.
The cold industrial look of the Iron Warriors immediately made them my favourite chaos legion and the mor of their lore i read, the more i liked them. To me their pre-heresy look is more fitting in the sense that it sells the "no nonsense". To me the more modern design should lean more towards a battle-worn theme than the typical ornate chaos look. Have more and more extreme bionics to show the centuries of battles and how they become more concerned with beeing living weapons than retaining a link to humanity. edit: My 40k army from the first hour is Orks. However i liked the idea of the hazard stripes so much and didn't want to paint checker patterns, that my orks use hazard stripes too. I can totallyinvision an ork seeing hazard stripes on a big machine and going "I want to be like that hard, strong machine, gonna paint me some of those stripes!" XD
Iron warriors are the legion that, out of the most, would be the most adequate to have pre-heresy models to represent post-heresy dudes. I can easily see myself running their 30k models to play 40k. Another legion that is suitable for that is Alpha Legion, which is actually also greek-inspired, but they have much more Greek elements to them. I would say that Iron Warriors are somewhat Spartan, and Alpha legion is more Athens if that makes sense. Thing is, CSM design currently is kinda all other the place right now. Generic CSM are more organic and almost like it would be preferable to use daemon engines instead of standard marine vehicles. Older daemon engines, such as Defiler and forgeworld Decimator and some older flyers (don't remember their name and too lazy to google) had were more technical than organic, and I think they fitted the legions such as Iron warriors better. But Forgefiends, modern Obliterators, Hellbrutes, Maulerfiends and Helldrakes suit Black Legion and Word Bearers much better than they suit Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. I would go as far as saying that I really don't like how current daemon engines look with iron warriors. I would much rather stick to older Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predator tanks, while also giving them some unique tanks - I believe they used to have Basilisks. So I would redesign Iron Warriors by giving them more Pre-heresy look and feel, giving them more unique units that have less organic elements and much more industrial/mechanical elements while, sparingly, giving them some chaos elements. Some middle ground between their 30k, 40k and previous rendition of generic CSM design.
Thank you very much for your super passionate and long comment we love it!! Because I am noob I have no idea what most of these guys are meant to look like in terms of the tanks and what not, but perhaps you can help me visualise. I did scour the interwebs quite a fair bit for good iron warrior art and came across some very lovely renditions which is why I included them in the video as possible talking points. Is there any particular artwork(s) you felt would be good to use as inspiration for portraying your idea? Or elements from different artworks or minis showcased to mix and match? - Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I think I would advise getting your hands on the 3rd Edition codex of CSM. Not even the artwork, but army photos. Nowadays they tend to keep iron bois as generic as possible even when it comes to army photos, albeit with more daemon engines than other dudes, but iirc the theme was more clear in the older books.
Crazy idea - ROUND shields AND mohawk-style plumes, a bit like Space Marine Minotaurs chapter, only iron + hazard stripes and with skull instead of bull head as logo.
Life has postponed my response to this video, but I love it! The Iron Warriors have been my great passion project for the past several years. They resonate with me in so many ways and it's difficult to put into words. I really enjoyed hearing your perspectives on the design elements. Yes, I have always thought the Greek association was kind of shoe-horned into their lore. I have always seen the Iron Warriors are more German or Prussian in culture. You've got the trench warfare, the military discipline, war as an industrial process, the unification of city-states. It's a bit more Otto Von Bismarck than it is ancient Greece. It seems like a missed opportunity to me. One thing I have come across as an Iron Warriors artist is that the black and yellow pattern is known as "Kaveatkos". I can't find too much about it, but I believe that's the name for the heraldic pattern and it does date back to the medieval era. Perhaps the name is Greek? I'm still trying to find out. I'd love to know the etymology of the word. With my redesign, I expressed their chaotic elements in a straightforward gothic-occult way. It's more Black Sabbath than it is bright, crazy chaos stuff. They have a lot of black leather, executed with an acrylic satin varnish texture. There are some black candles with the cultists and the daemons, a couple circles of blood and lots of orange and yellow fire, evocative of the forge glow. It's almost halloween-like, or like early, more subtle heavy metal. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to delve into this legion, as well as all the others. I believe that educating yourself about this stuff will make you a better painter, player and collector. You never know what might spark an idea or a direction for you to go in as you enjoy the hobby.
Glad you really enjoyed it, judging by that comment ha ha. We really do try and put a lot of effort into these and we love seeing passionate comments like these - Cal
My dude, I don't know why but it is almost impossible to find your RUclips channel without a direct link but someone needs to tell you. Because we found your Facebook with no problem but not your RUclips. I believe it is because your RUclips channel name is one word I think if you split it into two words you would be more successful as more people would be able to search you. You do REALLY good paint jobs. Just wanted to let you know because we want you to succeed have a good one brother - Cal
@@WarmasterPainting I am glad we helped hopefully spliting the name into two will get you more views and I hope you stay on until then and maybe a little beyond 😉 - Cal
Idea! What if these also had a basic assessment of how easy/difficult the faction would be to paint? Just a thought! As for design improvements, definitely Admech details. They already have mechanical tentacles and such, but driving home the cyborg body-horror vibe would fit great with the lore.
Cool idea💡 I think that painting assessment could cool but I am also thinking about how solidified it is as a format definitely things to think about - Cal
Hmm might be a good idea for the cyborg vibes to come in more for the Post Heresy design, what do you think about the Pre-heresy design? Anything to improve there? As far as paintability goes I think other than the chevron patterns, the scheme for them is quite simple as my personal opinion. ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I think that on one hand, leaning more towards cyborgisation and mechanical tentacles could fit some of them (predominantly warpsmiths), but at the same time, it would make them step on shoes of other legion - Iron Hands. Though, I too have a bit of an idea, a bit inspired by fanart with WW1 IW, as well as things that military vehicle crews did/do - adding more stuff on their armour, often of doubtful usefulness - in case of Peter Turbo boys, such emotional support would be in form additional plates put on top of their regular suit of armour (regardless of pattern of their armour) - I know, it's more of a detail, but given that their design is structurally sound, there's not much to add or take from
I thought about ablative plating... but it is so hard with them... I don't know what to do it very hard when there design is so around the industrial look - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I may be a bit confused - by "ablative" you meant added-on plates? Not that those plates disintegrate to soak up energy of an impact?
When I look at the iron warriors I think of construction crews. Roads, buildings, damns, bridges, etc. With cranes, bulldozers, steam rollers, huge slabs of concrete, hazzard stripes, hot tar, jackhammers, and burly stoic dudes with calluses getting the dirtiest and hardest jobs done.
In regards to design considerations in their rivalry with the Imperial Fists, I'm sensing that they are visually presented as reverse images of each other. Where the Imperial Fists are primarily yellow & white & secondarily black we see the Iron Warriors reversing the roles to black & dark iron with yellow. In their character, I sense that Perturabo and his Iron Warriors are more polar opposites of Guillliman and his Ultramarines (they are both builders & organizers of sorts). But in their design, they seem to be more opposed to the Imperial Fists in the reversing of their color priority. Just thought maybe there was a little more in the design aspect to mention?
I always assumed there was a through-line from mid-century blue collar work in the UK, to those blue collar workers’ punk kids in the 70’s and 80’s adopting the distinctive and bold patterns of their parents’ industrial safety gear - dags, checks, chevrons, and hazard stripes- as elements of punk fashion and design, to 80s punk art like 2000 AD and Rogue Trader.
@@robtibbetts890 I was so confused for a moment because I thought this was for a different video. But yeah there was a lot the punk 80s and 2000 AD was it put into Warhammer games - Cal
I don't know if someone brought this up already but the point of the Iron Warriors rivalry/hatred for the Imperial Fists is that its what shows just how petty, bitter and spiteful Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are. Perturabo wanted to be the one to build the Imperial palace, but big E gave that task to the Primarch of the Imperial Fists, Rogal Dorn, instead. Perturabo basically saw Dorn as the other worker who was undeserving of the big promotion that he wanted, but the boss just gave it to him instead. This solidified in Perturabos mind that the Emperor didn't acknowledge or cared about him or his legions efforts and dedication to his cause. They felt that all that they put in and sacrificed for the Emperor were unappreciated, which is one of the main factors that led him and his sons to siding with Horus when the Heresy kicked off.
The pettiness of the Iron Warriors is shown when despite Horus treating his legion the same way the Emperor did throughout the Heresy, Perturabo stomached it because he DESPERATELY wanted to break through into Dorns defenses and fortifications of the Imperial Palace to basically "prove" that Dorn wasn't fit for the task. Ounce he did this, Perturabo was content with bailing out of the siege on Terra when Horus gave his brother Mortairion the reigns of command during the assault. That's not even an exaggeration, he literally just straight up BAILED on all of them.
So we are going to be doing one on "Bugs" soon which will be Tyranids 40k, Terminids, and the Archinids/Pesudo-Archanids from Starship Troopers the movie and books respectively but we will see how it goes and go from there - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Oh I love those guys also (one of my favorite kinds of character/creature designs even)so that's great news! If it's not too much of a spoiler will you be covering a good number of the older 20th century designs for said 'bugs' ? Since you mentioned the books I'm sure there are some words to be shared on psuedoarchnids that looked more like cybernetic owl faced ticks than bull horned mantises... but I guess I'll have to wait and see on stubby armed hook clawed neon 80's /early 90's tyranids.
At the moment it's half way done and is probably more than a month away due to the amount of stuff planned Colour crime (this weekend) Fixing Stargrave (members) Ultimate guide to starting from scratch (next weekend) Then one I can't remember off the top of my head then design vs lore V Then I think it will be there
I think the Ad Mech Cataphron Breachers would make good mechanical proxies for Obliterators with an Iron Warrior theme. The main issue with the current Iron Warriors is the lack of legion specific design. The miniatures are meant to work for multiple chaos legions. There is a distinct divergence between the chaos miniatures and art depicting post Heresy Iron Warriors. It would almost be better to use pre-heresy models with additional bionics.
You know what... I think you might be right except... maybe like spider legs? Something like that to make it a little more distinct? ... this might be one of the few things we could actually change! - Cal
Finally i could watch this video!, great one by the way. How to redesign them???. -I would remove the black and white stripes, and i would remove the yellow completely. -I would use more brass, colour, i need more orange in their redesign. Orange is a colour of knowledge, and quick thinking, energy. Of course you can't use orange directly, so you need a metalic colour, ergo=brass. -I would use silver maybe. Thanks for teching me about colours!
While there isn't much you could do to really "improve" upon the design, I do think leaning towards the chaos elements has taken away part of their identity. Iron Warriors dont believe in chaos and use them as tools if anything, so having iron warriors display chaos symbols deosnt make sense to me. I'd remove the more-chaos elements like horns and spikes and icons, and leave pretty much everything else the same. The old helmets are also pretty cool and the Mark3 armor is an iconic part of the IW design, so I'd bring back that helmet and put it on the newer design. Then I'd just add extra cables and other mechanical elements wherever possible. Hazard stripes on every weapon.
Some has suggested something very similar I think it would probably be the best way to go but I like that one piece art with the demonic stormbolter - Cal
28:33 "Iron Warriors don't worship Chaos" is just a meme. Read any of the novels set after the Heresy, and there are plenty of examples of Iron Warriors being into Chaos. Berserker cults, Sorcerers, Possessed(!), shrines to the Chaos gods, even two examples of leaders ascending to Daemon Princehood (Barban Falk and Perturabo). Their Homeworld of Medrengard is inside the Warp, where it is impossible to fend off the influence of the Chaos gods and whose Daemonic servants are everywhere. There are a few lines in some of the game material about individual Iron Warriors who are more pragmatic and not into serving the Ruinous Powers. These ones are known to excise chaos mutations. But this does not characterize the legion as a whole. As you were talking about this, you showed an image of an Obliterator. This is a case in point. Obliterators started as Legionaries....
So democide is something else entirely, the Iron Warriors went through decimation when Perturabo punished them. I also think the word wasn’t so much Honorable but Stalwart, it tends to go hand in hand. Stalwart means loyal, reliable, and hardworking. They definitely ruined the awesome industrial aesthetic by falling to chaos. 😂
I’ve heard others try to connect the Greek elements of Iron Warriors to emphasize their minimalistic, practical or more specifically, *Spartan* design choice. But yeah, the Iron Warriors have probably have the least amount of Humanity to them, they made the Daemualaeba after all. Chaos in general needs more daemon engines, ones that are not flesh and metal hybrids. Also would like to see one of these videos for Alpha Legion ofc.
Personally i love the bright industrial factory metals with the greek aesthetic it fits the legion is cold but each individual legionaries hold on to humanity. They do their duty without question but they most certainly want credit. The hypocrisy is on brand
Redesign idea (fully stolen from the artist Wolfdog’s Art Corner): put some or most marines in patchy, mud-covered camouflage and others in bear and worn metal, like a late WW2 bomber fleet mixed with WW1 trench fighters. Give them kettle helmets with vaguely greek-style central ridges.
@@merci_ann Well the reason we participated is because we like his work, we thought why not its something we like, so we approached him I am glad you enjoyed - Cal
You left out that an ornate design has cultural significance within the 40k community as being symbolic of masochism. As in the masochists who start a chaos space marine army and then have to paint up all that damn trim. Thanks guys! Wasn't expecting another design vs lore episode so soon.
HA! Yeah we did actually have a video planned on how detail creep is actually doing psychological damage, but we weren't sure it was a good idea or not - Cal
😄 Seems a pretty interesting topic and very relatable for a lot of painters out there at least from what I've heard. Sure sounds like a WAYPN topic too! @@WhatareyouPaintingnow
a little context for the decimation, not that it was justified or anything. So just before perterabo was discoverd, the iron warriors were doing what they do best, that was, beseiging a world. At the time they were one of the largest legions, i think the 3rd largest at the time if i am not mistaken. Anyways they were seiging a world and they laid out a battle plan for coapturing it. They began their attack, but then an unforseen breakthrough in their lines resulted in a total breakdown in their plans as they became sourounded. Instead of adapting, as would be most prudendt, the iron warriors stubbornly commited to their privious plan, despite the fact that it was completly useless. In the end they won the day, but at a terrible cost. most of their legion had been complety destroyed, simply becase they refused to adapt. I belive they were cut down to 20,000, wich is absolutuly tiny (its about the size of the salamanders) and this was after having had around 200,000 ish men. So yea they kinda messed up big time. they were highly criticised and became a shamful legion because of this blunder. it was quite the fall from grace. and right after all this happend, perterabo was discovered. After inspecting his legion he saw their failure and so, in order to forever teach them the error of their ways, every ten men would draw straws, the looser would be strangled by their other nine comrades. this was to show them how they had killed their own brothers, senslessly, meaninglessly. After this culling, perterabo then reshaped the legion into his own legion, and through his masterfull use of logistics rebuilt the legion in fulll in only a handfull of years bringing them up to being one of the largest legions agian, all whilst enduring non stop seiges. Thats the context, also russ did the same thing in the wheel of fire but with every third man so take that space wolves fans.
Man I disagree I think you 100 percent could incorporate the Greek elements into their style rapidly with Sparta For example how Spartan armor is modeled to look like the body and clothing of the warrior and how it was meant to represent how they viewed their weapons and armor more as an extension of the labels and if their abilities rather than any external objects You could also I correlate some Roman-style segmented metallic armor since it would mesh well with the existing style they have
So the reason that we said we don't think you could add Greek elements is because they would clash. So the iron warrior design focused on minimalism so everything you add fights against that. Sunny herself added Greek elements in her quick drawing on the post we did a day or so ago. The problem for us is if we redesign we must be certain and project that certainly. And we weren't and still are not, so we don't think adding Greek elements will never clash with the minimalism design - Cal
I think we can still add the Greek elements to the Terran Troopers before they join the Astartes? cuz back then they are not AS industrial as they are like this under pre-heresy? But later stages at post-heresy they can bring back these elements back again, showing they are NOT worshipping/ fighting for the Chaos gods, but now TRULY for themselves, as they proudly giving off their homeland culture representation (a bit like how people wears their favorite basketball or soccer shirts out in the public as a support to their home team). I think there's more than one way to do it with things we can tweak around the design first and easiest we can simply introduce more colors than just industrial yellow and black? with actual colors that are closer to Greek like Blue and White as their modern flag is. This still keeps their industrial look yes, but more different from pre-heresy color pattern so you can tell which era it is from right away. or more bronze that's close to how the Greek ancient armor looks like? second which is taking away the element of cold blood and industrial is that adding something that is much more closer to Greek, personally I think we can make the armor more Greek pattern which is probably the easiest (and laziest) way of fixing it? but I think since they are so good at sieging, we can add some elements of the Greek architectures (top of my head thought is since they are so famous with their shields, they can totally have these Greek Marble Column relief sculptures on a shield, and now imagine a line of Space Marines with these and they will looks like The Temple of Artemis!!!) With weaponry I think for all the eras, they can have something like a chain spears or chain javelins? or the bolter spears the castodies got, sounds nice with shield on another hand
So I said something similar in another comment but basically the reason why we said no resign is this: We must be certain and project that certainly to people when we do. Sunny herself added Greek elements to a quick drawing she did that is posted here on the community tab on RUclips. But we're not now or before confident that adding anything will not mess with there minimalist design - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow sorry I don't check community tab that often and I do like that design! Just me giving off ideas that can break away from pre to post heresy!
I only have one question. Isn't killing the 10th called decimation? I think thats how Romans called it. Democide is a term related to government acts of sanctioned killing. I guess the other term could apply as well but i think decimation fits better?
yep someone else pointed this out, I was going with information off the top of my head. Because a lot of this stuff is "Reactions to the lore" so I can't keep notes incase Sunny sees them. So I have said it before fair cop you are right on that one - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow we all make mistakes and you weren't even entirely in the wrong. If we see Perturabo as a leader of the legion in the "his word is a law" (primarchs were after all pretty much free to do whatever with their legions) it might count as a sanctioned killing by the body of gov within the 4th legion. Thanks for taking time to reply!
@@merci_ann yeah we try really hard to reply to everyone, the only times we don't is if we think replying won't actually help anything. So if you like actually talking to creators we are ones for you. Thanks for following up - Cal
The Iron Warriors have a weird Viking theme post heresy, their planet is called Medrengard and they have mostly Viking, Greek, and western European-sounding names, but also somewhat Eastern or Arabic-sounding names like Honsou or Shon´tu
I think that's cause they have collected people from other space marine chapters if I remember correctly I think wasn't Honsou a former Iron Warrior or something? This is the problem with deep lore it's too much at times - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Honsou is a hybrid space marine, he was always an iron warrior but his geneseed has some imperial fist in it The IW are the purest traitor legion in more ways than one, most of them are sons of Perturabo, they don’t like recruiting from renegade chapters that much The names are probably just different writers forgetting that they’re supposed to be Greek Vikings
@@Goblinhandler That's right I forgot about that thing about Honsou, but this was where the edgy story comes into play of the demoncalarba or however it is spelt came into play with that wasn't it... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow nah, Honsou has other stories apart from the daemonculaba, that thing appears in a Uriel Ventris book He has his own book series, you can read it in “Iron Warriors: the complete Honsou omnibus”
They strike me as not about showing off, or being noticed, just about wanting their achievements being respected The change from the industrial yellow & black iron to gold & steel fits with a chapter that is prideful & demanding of more recognition. It also makes sense they would keep the same general combo but bling it up. After all, they sacrificed so much previously and they want that to remind themselves & everyone else of their history. Also considering their history with Olympia, I don't think they'd hold onto any overtly Grecian themes post Heresy, and instead double down on their cold, calculated, formidable aesthetic.
The Iron Warrios are my favourite legion, bitter and twisted!! I didn't like the decimation that Perturabo forced onto the Legion when he joined and to me it was just another mustache twirling villain thing that got chucked in, but there were a lot of goofy, silly things like that in the Horus Heresy novels that, personally, I would have never gone with; it may well be that you don't read Black Library for any kind of deep analysis on the human condition, but other hand, it could be done, if the authors have the skill. When I make Iron Warriors minis, I always remove every bit of Chaos iconography. Obviously the models have it because it's the same miniatures shared across all the legions and I guess that is reflected in the artwork which doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the lore since these concessions to the actual products influences what they show. So I always take off any arrows or unnecessary spikes and keep the armour pretty clean.
Yeah I think that's totally fair taking the extra stuff away, but I think they can go with it but I think it makes much more sense for at least a warband going around being like why add stuff? Especially when you compare it to that super bright metal warband I think you way makes more sense than that - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowAs you pointed out in your video, any time an Iron Warrior is 'blessed' with a nice new tentacle or otherboon of Chaos, they cut it off! So to me it makes sense they wouldn't have any interest or respect for the symbology of Chaos, not beyond the utility of it for binding daemons anyway. They used to have it that Iron Warriors could be devotees of Khorne, or would be more likely to fall to Khorne due to their warlike nature and it makes sense from the perspective that Khorne also represented the industry of Chaos although now they've introduced Vashtorr it makes more sense that Iron Warriors would bargain with him instead. I also recall Perturabo's realisation that he believes in nothing. He thought he believed in the Emperor's mission until he was used for meatgrinder campaigns just because he's Legion was tough and good at it, and fought wars uncomplainingly. I think that's where they've missed a trick with Horus Heresy novels, you could really explore themes around getting what you put up with and how much of that is a person being used and how much is that they put themselves into a postion to be walked on; I think Dorn accuses Perturabo of something similar, saying he could've just fought differently but didn't so it was his own fault.
@@Gogsnik Yeah I think with that last bit the idea of someone is being used as a part of their symbolism. I am not sure how to translate that or if that would be part of their design because they may just try and avoid showing any of that for obvious reasons - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowI suppose they already do show it with their bare armour (why paint it if noone cares?) and the Legion symbol itself, an armoured skull, a skull that has what could be seen as a portcullis for a mouth, they are protected but also prevented from speaking. I think there's a lot you could discern from the imagery of the Iron Warriors. Of course then you have Perturabo, a name that seems a bit like perturbed and also perdurabo, Aleister Crowley's magical motto, "I will endure to the end". I'm sure there are a number of psychological conditions that could be looked at, where a person sort of erass their own sense of self to endure a situation and the question arises, is it necessary, are you doing that to yourself or is it entirely forced upon you? Difficult to translate that into something visual on a model or in art that would drill down into it even more than how the Iron Warriors already look.
The problem is that there IS no "Post Heresy Iron Warriors specific design aesthetic"! There is just "General Chaos Space Marine aesthetic"! The horns, and gold trim and all the useless bling is very much NOT what the Iron Warriors are all about ... and many players actually file down and cut off.
Oh, and in the lore, it is mentioned that pre-Heresy Iron Warriors power armour was actually brighter/more shiny that post-Heresy. So the artwork is WRONG.
the hazard stripes is from a sense of humour, its stated in the horus heresy book with their tabletop rules, it contains also a segment about their heraldry. as a whole its a great source, liber astartes and hereticus have pages about the heraldry for every legion and explains certain things. me and my friends have the running joke that Iron Warriors laugh at hazard stripes, because well, it is something to denote danger, and the iron warriors are either always in continual danger, or they are the danger in a given situation. I personnally think its at its funniest when done to any weapon, like yeah, its a weapon, ofcourse its dangerous, but how better to communicate it to the enemy they are in danger than carrying some hazard stripes on your armour! I personnally also think the reason the Iron Warriors dont look greek is based on the fact that well, they dont like Olympia, Perturabo does not like Olympia, so why the fuck would they share anything with that wretched planet?
The problem with Perturabo is the writers, he is two completely different people not two views of the same person but two actually completely different people. One of them would have some of his homeworld elements one would never until he saw all his brothers do it then he would out of spite. One of the biggest problems with the Primarchs was it felt like they had no guidelines as to what/who they were - Cal
What I think when I see Iron Warriors is brutality. They have very brutalist design about them. If it doesn't serve purpose, why bother. They don’t care for anything but getting the job done and move. They have very minimal design by comparison to other traitors and it makes sense. They are all cogs in a war machine that is IVth Legion, and their design reflect it, in sense of design, they are very spartan which ironically works with their Greek origins of Olympia and else. Not standard but once you think about it that way it works. The only design decision that could work to make them rely more on Greek origins is some introduction of red colour at a very specific way. Not to flashy, and something that looks that it could be mass produced with no problem.
I would agree with most if not all of that, and I think this is why we had such trouble redesigning them because we were like... okay make them more Greek? No... Make them even more minimalist? Well I mean they have more than Death Guard... so... It was a very difficult line to strike and I don't think we could do it - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah I agree. Hard to do something for the entire legion. Denote characters officers etc. Easy. All space marines hard. Also death guard post heresy has alot of things. Some of those things should have never been seen. At all. :)
Well I think some Space Marines are easier than others, like the Dark Angels, their 40k design is in my opinion the biggest downgrade ever! Whatever the opposite of a 'glow up' is, is what happened to them. But then you have other legions where you are like... oh okay so their design is focused around minimalism and a factory ascetic so if you add literally anything you start to break it... cool :/ - Cal
We use AI images for things we don't have primarily. We used it for 'stock images' of people in hobby stores where there are none on the internet or of highly identifiable people, then of things that don't exist yet. We are going to continue to use AI for this reason. And all of the videos where we actually use our own art where we spent thousands of dollars getting this art people don't watch so we don't really care if people are upset about AI art because they never put their money where their mouth is - Cal
We use AI images for concepts that are really niche that regular stock videos and images will not be able to provide, the more abstract the topic the more AI images you can expect. But I do think that people aren't watching our videos because we don't use AI or use it, it's because we put effort and thought into what we are explaining -Sunny
Honestly a huge part of the Iron Warriors is just how stubborn and bitter they are. The fact they really haven't changed their design much in ten thousand years fits their personality to a T. It's not surprising to me that you couldn't change or bend the warriors of iron. Unbending, bitter stubbornness is kinda their lifeblood. These guys are absolutely the kind of people to harbor a grudge for ten thousand years. The sort of petty, bitter hatred born of middle management. 😂 If I were to change the Iron Warriors, not an easy task, well I'd remove the Hazard Stripes, or have them feature much less prominently. They're way too flashy and attention grabbing for what the Iron Warriors are about. Yellow is not their color. I'd lean more into just pure black instead of stripes. They're a very serious and professional legion, and black suits them well. Maybe even going so far as to have a black trim instead of brass. I'd make them more grimy and oil stained. Instead of adding ornamentation or flair, I'd make them more simple and efficient by stripping aspects away.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Neva Play (feat. RM) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpYTyAaTRts/mqdefault.jpg)
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:27 Pre-Heresy Design Breakdown
5:11 Pre-Heresy Design Analysis
7:36 Pre-Heresy Art
9:58 Pre-Heresy Design vs Lore
17:31 Pre-Heresy Final Notes
18:23 Post Heresy Design Breakdown
25:10 Post Heresy Design Analysis
26:23 Post Heresy Design vs Lore
31:12 Post Heresy Final Notes
33:12 Redesign
38:30 Outro
39:00 Post Credit Joke
I have to say I really love this series. Design philosophy is something that does interest me quite a bit, and I have a tiny bit of a fascination with 40k in particular.
You seem to be going in numerical order for the legions, and I just know I'll have to wait a while for my favorite Legion, the XVth. My Thousand Son dusty boys are certainly worth the wait, though!
A lot of us wanted to jump to 11th legion after we did second but we will get there if we get the views... which we are to degrees but we have really been having some trouble lately - Cal
You should have told Sunny about the Demonculaba
Little correction: the punishment wasn't called "Democide" but "Decimation"
That will happen when you are going off your head - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowin your defense that decimation was technically democide.
@@thomassavage-hx6ux yeah but I understand why people make the correction and I am not going to be up in arms about an error that is an error. We try and take responsibility for our stuff ups that way if we are defending a position that people disagree with, they know we a defending a position not just being defensive - Cal
funny how we show iron warriors more love than their own father! XD
Well you know what you're not... you're not wrong - Cal
The Iron Warriors Mk VI upgrade helmets to show some of the ancient Greek inspiration for the leader's helm. Aside from that, a lot a kitbashes our there help try to sell the Olympia-inspired culture like plumed helms, shields and power spears, etcetera. Some of the Horus Heresy transfers can help with the cultural origins of each legion too.
I think the plume helmets could help a lot but...
We weren't sure where the line was when they stopped becoming what they were sold as, the Iron Warriors not the Greek legion with industrial flare. We think if anything it should be opposite way around the Industrial Legion with the Greek flare - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow The thing about Perturabo is he very much had a lot of disdain for his homeworld. He refused to incorporate most of their cultural flair into his legion on purpose. He would later go on to subject his entire homeworld to harsh punishment, killing large portions of it after it rebelled against him.
Yep that was brought up by another commenter but I am not sure if it was simply distain for his homeworld he had distain for a lot of things... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowHopefully the next legion will be more interesting for you guys to examine that these grumpy toddlers
@@SWATDRUMMUH ha ha 🤣 perhaps
Werent stripes supposed to be like their twisted hangman type humour?
Like “o look big weapon be careful haha”
I think there was a lore bit where they found ancient Hazzard stripes and that made some some happen but I can't remember from where that came was - Cal
I think the black and yellow stripes were a part of Perturabo's (their leader) personal heraldry before he took command of the Legion, and was then added to their markings.
But I am not sure how recent an addition that is to the lore.
Like they said in the video, black and yellow have been used to represent "danger" in both nature and industry for a long time!
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow if I remember correctly it is stated in liber hereticus in their colour section
@@clonetf141 that one is quite rare isn't it?
Yes
Iron Warriors have such a solid colour palette and leaving it relatively unchanged in a redesign is certainly a good idea, the only thing I would personally change for a post-heresy Iron Warriors army would be the change of the lighter silvery primary back to their pre-heresy iron primary, not just because its fitting as they are the Iron Warriors, but also because that darker colour choice fits their overall attitude and personality as a legion, maybe some added industrial aspects like custom helmets for some Astartes that almost look similar to a welder's helmet with some personal markings on the front of them for added intimidation factor. However their Chaos Terminators with the massive tusks always look badass in artwork so apart from making their colour a bit darker, nothing would change
The Iron Warriors are one of my favourite legions, because of their colour palette, their lore and their lack of belief in Chaos, but they view it as a lesser of 2 evils if it means the Imperium's destruction
I think welders masks could be more interesting, instead of trying to show the Greek origin go even harder into the industrial look could be good that may have been a better way to go - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I always thought that Post-Heresy should focus on the industrious nature of the IWs even harder, now that their homeworld is long gone, therefore that Greek heritage was lost when Olympia was too, definitely would show their stoic "Iron Within, Iron Without" motto, showing how their home is no more, and shouldn't waste time looking back on such a time, and spend that time working to defeat the Imperium
@@azurehorizon6097 100% something to think about, I wonder how you could go harder into the industrial look as you said. I mean welder style helmets would be good but I am not sure beyond that. It would be rather comical if all of their 'bare head' still wore construction hats - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I have seen minis of Iron Warriors being painted with a greasy or dirty wash to give them a grimy look to them, as if they've been working hard creating Daemon Engines and other weaponry for Chaos, I've even seen some minis of Dreadnoughts with four legs instead of the usual two, those legs showing a more mechanical design than the original.
I agree though, it would be difficult to make the Iron Warriors look more industrial than they already are, I feel its a situation where once you know exactly what to use, it would look amazing once put into practise
I would like to see them more pre-oil industrial, or steampunk if you want to call it so. Imagine their backpacks as furnaces and their weapons as blacksmith tools. Some smoke pouring out of exhaust valves.
Also if adding something, while keeping their pragmatic nature, make them wear equipment that can be used in other roles besides warriors, this is, crafters, smiths, and so. Like, Melta or energy weapons inspired on welding equipment, so that could be used to improvise a barricade mid battle.
Get some inspiration from vashtorr or genstealer cults.
So the Greek theming is a bit of a retcon too, because both the name Perturabo and his homeworld Olympia (which were the only tidbits of lore for a long while) were actually references to Alister Crowley. Crowley wrote the book Perdurabo (Latin for "I Will Endure") and he famously got into a "Magic Wizard Duel" (embarrassing shouting match) with W.B. Yeats in the "Battle of Blythe Road" near Kensington Olympia. The Greek stuff was likely added after writers didn't get the obscure reference with "Olympia."
So pretty much in agreement with what I said on that point I am guessing? But I wonder if it is a retcon if it isn't something that has been fleshed out... hmm something to think about - Cal
11:13 She is NOT wrong here! The Iron Warriors may have a reputation for being slow and methodical while conducting their siege operations, but when they managed to force a breach, and it is time to storm it, they hit VERY HARD!
Also, something that was not mentioned, they are also famously OCCUPIERS. At the start of the Horus Heresy, no other Legion was occupying more worlds than the Iron Warriors. It was one of the reasons for why Perturabo resented the Imperium, his Legion was so broken up and scattered, unlike most other Legions who were allowed to fight as a whole force.
I just want to say these videos are not only giving off interesting takes in terms of art and lore, also it's very friendly to non-English speakers as both the pronunciation are very clear and the speed of talking is slow enough to catch up
We really do try with the audio even when the quality was bad. People may be surprised how many retakes we do. It's important to us to deliver a quality product and we are glad that it has helped people such as yourself 😌 - Cal
Just dropping in to say hi. I caught your segment in Arthur Bones' 40K subscriber video, and really enjoyed it. I've sub scribed and am working through your back catalog today. Love it! Glad to have found y'all.
Thank you so much as a new viewer we would love to know what interests you and what doesn't after watching? We are very active in the comments you will find I hope you enjoy your stay in our little digital home 🏡 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I am particularly enjoying the Design vs Lore series so far, and hope it continues beyond just the Astartes. I would love to see the take on factions like the Custodes, Harlequins, some Guard regiments, or some of the successor chapters.
Thus far we are trying to do what is more popular which means Astartes but we have an idea for a video about What your army's colours says about you: Bugs! which will be about Helldivers, Starship troopers and Tyrranids - Cal
I was actually surprised how sunny pretty much hit the nail on the head with her assumptions. The iron warriors were definitely one of if not the most reliable space marine legions and they were send to do the worst jobs no one else wanted to without complaints and got them done.
Well I am not quite sure I would call them assumptions because it was more guessing based of design. I think one of the things we hope this series does, is it showing just how much design communicates - Cal
Woooo I’ve been so hyped for the series to start again!!!
We try and do this once a month just so you know when it will be out - Cal
There is a bit of their pre-heresy lore where because it was such a bad experience for regular humans to serve with them, Horus (pre chaos) actually made being attached to them a punishment. Think of prisoners being assigned to work gangs, and then these guys use them to sweep mine fields by hand rather than use their good machinery even before the heresy. Also I didn't see much in the designs that emphasized the Siege attack aspect. So in a post heresy redesign perhaps there is something to the idea of more heavy chains (think of engine hoists or jailers), and more brutal and severe aesthetics, perhaps more bio-mechanical siege beasts. Or it could lean more into body horror as their Primarch was a master of machines and what is the body but a machine with new problematic "squishy" parts. Perhaps big battering rams of hulking monstrosities lead in chains by certain Iron Warrior keepers. Or more of the Shield Wall concept
You know what that is a great point about the not a lot of the siege aspect being show! That is something we could expand on - Cal
I think the bionics and mechanical aspect might be good for a post heresy concept - Sunny
Now I'm picturing the siege drill transport from 30K, but built into the frame of a big mechanical toad with glowing red eyes.
For a new design idea, you could swap out the large hazard stripes for a black and yellow greek/Roman wave patterns as trim or accents. The iron warriors would have time for simple geometric patterns. Old diagrams for artillery firing solutions mixed in with old siege diagrams drawn in grease pen on their armor.
Instead of featureless iron for the body focus on multiple metal tones to show their pragmatism in cannibalizing enemy power armor.
This presence of warriors callous and calculating, wearing jagged and shattered armor after being shelled and shot for centuries. Iron warriors who aren’t clean lines and dull iron, but dead hearted monsters chewed up and spat out in the jaws of war.
Love your content. Keep Rocking Compadres!
Thanks for the compliment. Some of those ones are as a friend of mine says "have to a smoke and a think on it" nether of smoke but I think you get it - Cal
The practice of the killing of a 10th of the soldiers by the other 9/10ths is a practice known as decimation, and it dates back to the Roman Empire. Ironic since Mr Roman Roboute Guilliman himself was the one mentioned as wanting to sanction Perturabo for it.
That being said, Perturabo's depiction is very... inconsistent. Some writers frame him as being very petulant, and the reason the Iron Warriors took so many hard jobs was at the insistence of Perturabo himself. The lack of honors mostly being Perturabo refusing to celebrate his legion himself and sort of expecting the rest of the Imperium to do it for him. From this telling, Perturabo's complaints and problems are mostly self inflicted, or at the very least he does very little to remedy them himself. Too stubborn to change his ways to get what he says he wants.
Though others do play this straight, where Perturabo really was an unsung hero who was just left out in the cold and taken for granted one too many times..
I think both the Lion and Iron Lord suffer from the I change authors all the time issue. Like I vaguely remember in one book it was like he (Perturabo) was a tormented soul and he even hated how petty he could be but he knew he could be great. He feared the gaze of the eye of terror mentioned it once to the wrong person and then shut up about it ever more.
Then it was like... I am a man child look at me rage.
It would be nice if GW gave some consistency at least to primarchs - Cal
Will you be doing a video on the pre-heresy/post heresy World Eaters next?
White Scars are Fifth I do believe so they will be up next - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Nice, also incase if you two plan tackling other series/franchises, I'd be curious to see you guys analysis the design and colors of the Flood from Halo (namely the first Halo games and Halo Wars), just a cheeky suggestion
@@ChaseDaOrk3767 So we considered doing the Tyranids/Starship Troopers/Hell Divers recently
But since we are having algorithm troubles our ability to move outisde of spot is difficult... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow That's alright
Iron within, Iron without
Been looking forward to it❤
Hope it met your expectations ☺️ - Cal
“They’re very honorable and humble” 😭
I’m not crying you are
I’m about to start iron warriors, and this video is perfect!
Glad to help ☺️ - Cal
I actually think the pre-heresy Iron Warriors actually *were* pretty honourable. Not in the fancy, showy, laurels-and-parades way like with Ultramarines or Blood Angels or what have you, but they absolutely *were* consistent, reliable, loyal, honest, and did what was asked of them without complaint; exactly the kind of more "working class" honour she meant. *Perturabo* was a seething pile of resentment and jealousy and rage, sure, but that wasn't his sons' fault, nor was that quality initially reflected in them. I think it's even canon that they had the most loyalists out of any of the traitor legions? Post-heresy, they're hateful, sadistic, cold-hearted monsters straight from the industrial furnaces of hell, absolutely, but back before the heresy they were just hard-working soldiers.
So just clarifying because I think this what you are saying which is pre-heresy before they met Perturabo they were just "working class" soldiers. like "were consistent, reliable, loyal, honest" before they met him and they were kind of ruined by him? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Sort of. But even at the outset of the heresy they weren’t *that* bad yet, though bitterness and resentment had definitely begun to set in. I think it was the heresy itself, the scouring, and then the ten thousand years in space hell that *really* turned them into the monsters they are, though having Perturabo as a primarch certainly didn’t help. I think some legions fell mainly because of geneseed, some mainly because of cultural or home planet reasons, some mainly because of circumstances, and some mainly because of their primarch, and I think the fourth are an example of the latter.
@@nataliereed4238 yeah some people have told me additional things about them that they were pretty much bad before good old Peter Turbo... But I haven't seen those sources or had the time to check into it, so I am a little in limbo on it because I believe this person. But as the saying goes believe but confirm - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Yeah… And also with 40k most things are also open to interpretation, too. Especially when there’s inconsistencies between how different writers depict them. I wouldn’t say people expressing a differing view on their pre-Perty character are wrong, I just meant to express that I don’t think Sunny was too far off the mark with the “hard-working, reliable, honourable, get the job done” vibes she got from the design.
@@nataliereed4238 Totally 100% - Cal
The cold industrial look of the Iron Warriors immediately made them my favourite chaos legion and the mor of their lore i read, the more i liked them.
To me their pre-heresy look is more fitting in the sense that it sells the "no nonsense". To me the more modern design should lean more towards a battle-worn theme than the typical ornate chaos look. Have more and more extreme bionics to show the centuries of battles and how they become more concerned with beeing living weapons than retaining a link to humanity.
edit: My 40k army from the first hour is Orks. However i liked the idea of the hazard stripes so much and didn't want to paint checker patterns, that my orks use hazard stripes too. I can totallyinvision an ork seeing hazard stripes on a big machine and going "I want to be like that hard, strong machine, gonna paint me some of those stripes!" XD
Iron warriors are the legion that, out of the most, would be the most adequate to have pre-heresy models to represent post-heresy dudes. I can easily see myself running their 30k models to play 40k.
Another legion that is suitable for that is Alpha Legion, which is actually also greek-inspired, but they have much more Greek elements to them. I would say that Iron Warriors are somewhat Spartan, and Alpha legion is more Athens if that makes sense.
Thing is, CSM design currently is kinda all other the place right now. Generic CSM are more organic and almost like it would be preferable to use daemon engines instead of standard marine vehicles. Older daemon engines, such as Defiler and forgeworld Decimator and some older flyers (don't remember their name and too lazy to google) had were more technical than organic, and I think they fitted the legions such as Iron warriors better. But Forgefiends, modern Obliterators, Hellbrutes, Maulerfiends and Helldrakes suit Black Legion and Word Bearers much better than they suit Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. I would go as far as saying that I really don't like how current daemon engines look with iron warriors. I would much rather stick to older Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predator tanks, while also giving them some unique tanks - I believe they used to have Basilisks.
So I would redesign Iron Warriors by giving them more Pre-heresy look and feel, giving them more unique units that have less organic elements and much more industrial/mechanical elements while, sparingly, giving them some chaos elements. Some middle ground between their 30k, 40k and previous rendition of generic CSM design.
Thank you very much for your super passionate and long comment we love it!! Because I am noob I have no idea what most of these guys are meant to look like in terms of the tanks and what not, but perhaps you can help me visualise. I did scour the interwebs quite a fair bit for good iron warrior art and came across some very lovely renditions which is why I included them in the video as possible talking points. Is there any particular artwork(s) you felt would be good to use as inspiration for portraying your idea? Or elements from different artworks or minis showcased to mix and match? - Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I think I would advise getting your hands on the 3rd Edition codex of CSM. Not even the artwork, but army photos. Nowadays they tend to keep iron bois as generic as possible even when it comes to army photos, albeit with more daemon engines than other dudes, but iirc the theme was more clear in the older books.
Crazy idea - ROUND shields AND mohawk-style plumes, a bit like Space Marine Minotaurs chapter, only iron + hazard stripes and with skull instead of bull head as logo.
Life has postponed my response to this video, but I love it! The Iron Warriors have been my great passion project for the past several years. They resonate with me in so many ways and it's difficult to put into words. I really enjoyed hearing your perspectives on the design elements. Yes, I have always thought the Greek association was kind of shoe-horned into their lore. I have always seen the Iron Warriors are more German or Prussian in culture. You've got the trench warfare, the military discipline, war as an industrial process, the unification of city-states. It's a bit more Otto Von Bismarck than it is ancient Greece. It seems like a missed opportunity to me.
One thing I have come across as an Iron Warriors artist is that the black and yellow pattern is known as "Kaveatkos". I can't find too much about it, but I believe that's the name for the heraldic pattern and it does date back to the medieval era. Perhaps the name is Greek? I'm still trying to find out. I'd love to know the etymology of the word.
With my redesign, I expressed their chaotic elements in a straightforward gothic-occult way. It's more Black Sabbath than it is bright, crazy chaos stuff. They have a lot of black leather, executed with an acrylic satin varnish texture. There are some black candles with the cultists and the daemons, a couple circles of blood and lots of orange and yellow fire, evocative of the forge glow. It's almost halloween-like, or like early, more subtle heavy metal.
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to delve into this legion, as well as all the others. I believe that educating yourself about this stuff will make you a better painter, player and collector. You never know what might spark an idea or a direction for you to go in as you enjoy the hobby.
Glad you really enjoyed it, judging by that comment ha ha. We really do try and put a lot of effort into these and we love seeing passionate comments like these - Cal
Really enjoying your videos guys 🔥
Glad you like them! 😊 - Cal
My dude, I don't know why but it is almost impossible to find your RUclips channel without a direct link but someone needs to tell you.
Because we found your Facebook with no problem but not your RUclips. I believe it is because your RUclips channel name is one word I think if you split it into two words you would be more successful as more people would be able to search you. You do REALLY good paint jobs. Just wanted to let you know because we want you to succeed have a good one brother - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Thanks so much! That is kind of you Cal
I can't wait for you guys to do Word Bearers.
@@WarmasterPainting I am glad we helped hopefully spliting the name into two will get you more views and I hope you stay on until then and maybe a little beyond 😉 - Cal
Idea!
What if these also had a basic assessment of how easy/difficult the faction would be to paint?
Just a thought!
As for design improvements, definitely Admech details. They already have mechanical tentacles and such, but driving home the cyborg body-horror vibe would fit great with the lore.
Cool idea💡 I think that painting assessment could cool but I am also thinking about how solidified it is as a format definitely things to think about - Cal
Hmm might be a good idea for the cyborg vibes to come in more for the Post Heresy design, what do you think about the Pre-heresy design? Anything to improve there? As far as paintability goes I think other than the chevron patterns, the scheme for them is quite simple as my personal opinion. ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I think that on one hand, leaning more towards cyborgisation and mechanical tentacles could fit some of them (predominantly warpsmiths), but at the same time, it would make them step on shoes of other legion - Iron Hands.
Though, I too have a bit of an idea, a bit inspired by fanart with WW1 IW, as well as things that military vehicle crews did/do - adding more stuff on their armour, often of doubtful usefulness - in case of Peter Turbo boys, such emotional support would be in form additional plates put on top of their regular suit of armour (regardless of pattern of their armour) - I know, it's more of a detail, but given that their design is structurally sound, there's not much to add or take from
I thought about ablative plating... but it is so hard with them... I don't know what to do it very hard when there design is so around the industrial look - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I may be a bit confused - by "ablative" you meant added-on plates? Not that those plates disintegrate to soak up energy of an impact?
When I look at the iron warriors I think of construction crews. Roads, buildings, damns, bridges, etc. With cranes, bulldozers, steam rollers, huge slabs of concrete, hazzard stripes, hot tar, jackhammers, and burly stoic dudes with calluses getting the dirtiest and hardest jobs done.
Totally fair - Cal
In regards to design considerations in their rivalry with the Imperial Fists, I'm sensing that they are visually presented as reverse images of each other. Where the Imperial Fists are primarily yellow & white & secondarily black we see the Iron Warriors reversing the roles to black & dark iron with yellow. In their character, I sense that Perturabo and his Iron Warriors are more polar opposites of Guillliman and his Ultramarines (they are both builders & organizers of sorts). But in their design, they seem to be more opposed to the Imperial Fists in the reversing of their color priority. Just thought maybe there was a little more in the design aspect to mention?
I always assumed there was a through-line from mid-century blue collar work in the UK, to those blue collar workers’ punk kids in the 70’s and 80’s adopting the distinctive and bold patterns of their parents’ industrial safety gear - dags, checks, chevrons, and hazard stripes- as elements of punk fashion and design, to 80s punk art like 2000 AD and Rogue Trader.
@@robtibbetts890 I was so confused for a moment because I thought this was for a different video. But yeah there was a lot the punk 80s and 2000 AD was it put into Warhammer games - Cal
I don't know if someone brought this up already but the point of the Iron Warriors rivalry/hatred for the Imperial Fists is that its what shows just how petty, bitter and spiteful Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are. Perturabo wanted to be the one to build the Imperial palace, but big E gave that task to the Primarch of the Imperial Fists, Rogal Dorn, instead. Perturabo basically saw Dorn as the other worker who was undeserving of the big promotion that he wanted, but the boss just gave it to him instead. This solidified in Perturabos mind that the Emperor didn't acknowledge or cared about him or his legions efforts and dedication to his cause. They felt that all that they put in and sacrificed for the Emperor were unappreciated, which is one of the main factors that led him and his sons to siding with Horus when the Heresy kicked off.
The pettiness of the Iron Warriors is shown when despite Horus treating his legion the same way the Emperor did throughout the Heresy, Perturabo stomached it because he DESPERATELY wanted to break through into Dorns defenses and fortifications of the Imperial Palace to basically "prove" that Dorn wasn't fit for the task. Ounce he did this, Perturabo was content with bailing out of the siege on Terra when Horus gave his brother Mortairion the reigns of command during the assault. That's not even an exaggeration, he literally just straight up BAILED on all of them.
I'm a newly earned subscriber here, have you two covered any Aeldari art design yet? I'd love to see a breakdown on their wraith units.
So we are going to be doing one on "Bugs" soon which will be Tyranids 40k, Terminids, and the Archinids/Pesudo-Archanids from Starship Troopers the movie and books respectively but we will see how it goes and go from there - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Oh I love those guys also (one of my favorite kinds of character/creature designs even)so that's great news!
If it's not too much of a spoiler will you be covering a good number of the older 20th century designs for said 'bugs' ?
Since you mentioned the books I'm sure there are some words to be shared on psuedoarchnids that looked more like cybernetic owl faced ticks than bull horned mantises... but I guess I'll have to wait and see on stubby armed hook clawed neon 80's /early 90's tyranids.
At the moment it's half way done and is probably more than a month away due to the amount of stuff planned
Colour crime (this weekend)
Fixing Stargrave (members)
Ultimate guide to starting from scratch (next weekend)
Then one I can't remember off the top of my head then design vs lore V
Then I think it will be there
I think the Ad Mech Cataphron Breachers would make good mechanical proxies for Obliterators with an Iron Warrior theme. The main issue with the current Iron Warriors is the lack of legion specific design. The miniatures are meant to work for multiple chaos legions. There is a distinct divergence between the chaos miniatures and art depicting post Heresy Iron Warriors. It would almost be better to use pre-heresy models with additional bionics.
You know what... I think you might be right except... maybe like spider legs? Something like that to make it a little more distinct? ... this might be one of the few things we could actually change! - Cal
Love the series, keep it up (maybe The Salamanders next??)
Yes the fifth legion Salamanders... Wait - Cal
Finally i could watch this video!, great one by the way. How to redesign them???.
-I would remove the black and white stripes, and i would remove the yellow completely.
-I would use more brass, colour, i need more orange in their redesign. Orange is a colour of knowledge, and quick thinking, energy. Of course you can't use orange directly, so you need a metalic colour, ergo=brass.
-I would use silver maybe.
Thanks for teching me about colours!
While there isn't much you could do to really "improve" upon the design, I do think leaning towards the chaos elements has taken away part of their identity. Iron Warriors dont believe in chaos and use them as tools if anything, so having iron warriors display chaos symbols deosnt make sense to me.
I'd remove the more-chaos elements like horns and spikes and icons, and leave pretty much everything else the same.
The old helmets are also pretty cool and the Mark3 armor is an iconic part of the IW design, so I'd bring back that helmet and put it on the newer design.
Then I'd just add extra cables and other mechanical elements wherever possible. Hazard stripes on every weapon.
Some has suggested something very similar I think it would probably be the best way to go but I like that one piece art with the demonic stormbolter - Cal
28:33 "Iron Warriors don't worship Chaos" is just a meme. Read any of the novels set after the Heresy, and there are plenty of examples of Iron Warriors being into Chaos. Berserker cults, Sorcerers, Possessed(!), shrines to the Chaos gods, even two examples of leaders ascending to Daemon Princehood (Barban Falk and Perturabo). Their Homeworld of Medrengard is inside the Warp, where it is impossible to fend off the influence of the Chaos gods and whose Daemonic servants are everywhere. There are a few lines in some of the game material about individual Iron Warriors who are more pragmatic and not into serving the Ruinous Powers. These ones are known to excise chaos mutations. But this does not characterize the legion as a whole. As you were talking about this, you showed an image of an Obliterator. This is a case in point. Obliterators started as Legionaries....
This is fantastic, even if I’ve got 10 Imperial Fists on my desk right now. Something to enjoy while I edge highlight. 😂
So democide is something else entirely, the Iron Warriors went through decimation when Perturabo punished them.
I also think the word wasn’t so much Honorable but Stalwart, it tends to go hand in hand. Stalwart means loyal, reliable, and hardworking.
They definitely ruined the awesome industrial aesthetic by falling to chaos. 😂
What did you think of the first comment in the video - Cal
I’ve heard others try to connect the Greek elements of Iron Warriors to emphasize their minimalistic, practical or more specifically, *Spartan* design choice. But yeah, the Iron Warriors have probably have the least amount of Humanity to them, they made the Daemualaeba after all.
Chaos in general needs more daemon engines, ones that are not flesh and metal hybrids. Also would like to see one of these videos for Alpha Legion ofc.
A lot of people have suggested that they removed the chaos elements and be even more plain idk atm - Cal
Personally i love the bright industrial factory metals with the greek aesthetic it fits the legion is cold but each individual legionaries hold on to humanity. They do their duty without question but they most certainly want credit. The hypocrisy is on brand
"The hypocrisy is on brand" quote of the day - Cal
Redesign idea (fully stolen from the artist Wolfdog’s Art Corner): put some or most marines in patchy, mud-covered camouflage and others in bear and worn metal, like a late WW2 bomber fleet mixed with WW1 trench fighters. Give them kettle helmets with vaguely greek-style central ridges.
Wow that bad batch artwork but WolfDog is amazing! - Cal
Got into this channel thanks to Bones collaboration. You guys are awesome!
Welcome aboard! I hope you liked our entry 😊 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I did! Thanks for participating in it since it allowed me to discover your channel
@@merci_ann Well the reason we participated is because we like his work, we thought why not its something we like, so we approached him
I am glad you enjoyed - Cal
You left out that an ornate design has cultural significance within the 40k community as being symbolic of masochism. As in the masochists who start a chaos space marine army and then have to paint up all that damn trim.
Thanks guys! Wasn't expecting another design vs lore episode so soon.
HA! Yeah we did actually have a video planned on how detail creep is actually doing psychological damage, but we weren't sure it was a good idea or not - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowthat sounds like a great video idea!
😄 Seems a pretty interesting topic and very relatable for a lot of painters out there at least from what I've heard. Sure sounds like a WAYPN topic too! @@WhatareyouPaintingnow
I love these videos
Thank you every much I hope you will enjoy the next one but there will be a bit of a twist - Cal
a little context for the decimation, not that it was justified or anything. So just before perterabo was discoverd, the iron warriors were doing what they do best, that was, beseiging a world. At the time they were one of the largest legions, i think the 3rd largest at the time if i am not mistaken. Anyways they were seiging a world and they laid out a battle plan for coapturing it. They began their attack, but then an unforseen breakthrough in their lines resulted in a total breakdown in their plans as they became sourounded. Instead of adapting, as would be most prudendt, the iron warriors stubbornly commited to their privious plan, despite the fact that it was completly useless. In the end they won the day, but at a terrible cost. most of their legion had been complety destroyed, simply becase they refused to adapt. I belive they were cut down to 20,000, wich is absolutuly tiny (its about the size of the salamanders) and this was after having had around 200,000 ish men. So yea they kinda messed up big time. they were highly criticised and became a shamful legion because of this blunder. it was quite the fall from grace. and right after all this happend, perterabo was discovered. After inspecting his legion he saw their failure and so, in order to forever teach them the error of their ways, every ten men would draw straws, the looser would be strangled by their other nine comrades. this was to show them how they had killed their own brothers, senslessly, meaninglessly. After this culling, perterabo then reshaped the legion into his own legion, and through his masterfull use of logistics rebuilt the legion in fulll in only a handfull of years bringing them up to being one of the largest legions agian, all whilst enduring non stop seiges. Thats the context, also russ did the same thing in the wheel of fire but with every third man so take that space wolves fans.
I'm currently working on a custom loyalist chapter with a orn warriors gene seed so this is really helpful 👍
Good to hear! This what we aim for actually helping people 😄 - Cal
Man I disagree I think you 100 percent could incorporate the Greek elements into their style rapidly with Sparta
For example how Spartan armor is modeled to look like the body and clothing of the warrior and how it was meant to represent how they viewed their weapons and armor more as an extension of the labels and if their abilities rather than any external objects
You could also I correlate some Roman-style segmented metallic armor since it would mesh well with the existing style they have
So the reason that we said we don't think you could add Greek elements is because they would clash. So the iron warrior design focused on minimalism so everything you add fights against that.
Sunny herself added Greek elements in her quick drawing on the post we did a day or so ago. The problem for us is if we redesign we must be certain and project that certainly. And we weren't and still are not, so we don't think adding Greek elements will never clash with the minimalism design - Cal
I think we can still add the Greek elements to the Terran Troopers before they join the Astartes? cuz back then they are not AS industrial as they are like this under pre-heresy? But later stages at post-heresy they can bring back these elements back again, showing they are NOT worshipping/ fighting for the Chaos gods, but now TRULY for themselves, as they proudly giving off their homeland culture representation (a bit like how people wears their favorite basketball or soccer shirts out in the public as a support to their home team).
I think there's more than one way to do it with things we can tweak around the design
first and easiest we can simply introduce more colors than just industrial yellow and black? with actual colors that are closer to Greek like Blue and White as their modern flag is. This still keeps their industrial look yes, but more different from pre-heresy color pattern so you can tell which era it is from right away. or more bronze that's close to how the Greek ancient armor looks like?
second which is taking away the element of cold blood and industrial is that adding something that is much more closer to Greek, personally I think we can make the armor more Greek pattern which is probably the easiest (and laziest) way of fixing it? but I think since they are so good at sieging, we can add some elements of the Greek architectures (top of my head thought is since they are so famous with their shields, they can totally have these Greek Marble Column relief sculptures on a shield, and now imagine a line of Space Marines with these and they will looks like The Temple of Artemis!!!)
With weaponry I think for all the eras, they can have something like a chain spears or chain javelins? or the bolter spears the castodies got, sounds nice with shield on another hand
So I said something similar in another comment but basically the reason why we said no resign is this: We must be certain and project that certainly to people when we do. Sunny herself added Greek elements to a quick drawing she did that is posted here on the community tab on RUclips. But we're not now or before confident that adding anything will not mess with there minimalist design - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow sorry I don't check community tab that often and I do like that design! Just me giving off ideas that can break away from pre to post heresy!
All good not scolding just explaining - Cal
Really amazing video! Thank you!
Glad you liked it! Hope to see you next time - Cal
Hey! Welcome back thank you for the comment glad you liked the video, do you have any thoughts on the redesign? - Sunny
I only have one question. Isn't killing the 10th called decimation? I think thats how Romans called it. Democide is a term related to government acts of sanctioned killing. I guess the other term could apply as well but i think decimation fits better?
yep someone else pointed this out, I was going with information off the top of my head. Because a lot of this stuff is "Reactions to the lore" so I can't keep notes incase Sunny sees them. So I have said it before fair cop you are right on that one - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow we all make mistakes and you weren't even entirely in the wrong. If we see Perturabo as a leader of the legion in the "his word is a law" (primarchs were after all pretty much free to do whatever with their legions) it might count as a sanctioned killing by the body of gov within the 4th legion. Thanks for taking time to reply!
@@merci_ann yeah we try really hard to reply to everyone, the only times we don't is if we think replying won't actually help anything.
So if you like actually talking to creators we are ones for you. Thanks for following up - Cal
The Iron Warriors have a weird Viking theme post heresy, their planet is called Medrengard and they have mostly Viking, Greek, and western European-sounding names, but also somewhat Eastern or Arabic-sounding names like Honsou or Shon´tu
I think that's cause they have collected people from other space marine chapters if I remember correctly I think wasn't Honsou a former Iron Warrior or something? This is the problem with deep lore it's too much at times - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Honsou is a hybrid space marine, he was always an iron warrior but his geneseed has some imperial fist in it
The IW are the purest traitor legion in more ways than one, most of them are sons of Perturabo, they don’t like recruiting from renegade chapters that much
The names are probably just different writers forgetting that they’re supposed to be Greek Vikings
@@Goblinhandler That's right I forgot about that thing about Honsou, but this was where the edgy story comes into play of the demoncalarba or however it is spelt came into play with that wasn't it... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow nah, Honsou has other stories apart from the daemonculaba, that thing appears in a Uriel Ventris book
He has his own book series, you can read it in “Iron Warriors: the complete Honsou omnibus”
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow The daemonculaba appears in a Uriel Ventris book, you can read about Honsou in his own book series
They strike me as not about showing off, or being noticed, just about wanting their achievements being respected
The change from the industrial yellow & black iron to gold & steel fits with a chapter that is prideful & demanding of more recognition. It also makes sense they would keep the same general combo but bling it up. After all, they sacrificed so much previously and they want that to remind themselves & everyone else of their history.
Also considering their history with Olympia, I don't think they'd hold onto any overtly Grecian themes post Heresy, and instead double down on their cold, calculated, formidable aesthetic.
Thank you sergeant I think you bring up some good points there which is why it was hard for us to decide on a redesign - Sunny
Yeah that is something we should have picked up on how much gold was added between the pre and post heresy, like now they will notice us - Cal
You can't redesign perfection. That is why the iron warriors are the best legion.
🔥🎸🔥
The Iron Worriors also know stripes can be slimming... It's in the lore.
I was out when I read this and had a good laugh and showed it to someone... they did not laugh, I judged them - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow
♥️
Ha! I'm flattered. Best wishes and hope your weekend is rock'n!
@@MrTrenttness Sunny laughed too, she got a game of Frostgrave in and managed a drawing... it literally just went up check it out in the post - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I will!
The Iron Warrios are my favourite legion, bitter and twisted!! I didn't like the decimation that Perturabo forced onto the Legion when he joined and to me it was just another mustache twirling villain thing that got chucked in, but there were a lot of goofy, silly things like that in the Horus Heresy novels that, personally, I would have never gone with; it may well be that you don't read Black Library for any kind of deep analysis on the human condition, but other hand, it could be done, if the authors have the skill.
When I make Iron Warriors minis, I always remove every bit of Chaos iconography. Obviously the models have it because it's the same miniatures shared across all the legions and I guess that is reflected in the artwork which doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the lore since these concessions to the actual products influences what they show. So I always take off any arrows or unnecessary spikes and keep the armour pretty clean.
Yeah I think that's totally fair taking the extra stuff away, but I think they can go with it but I think it makes much more sense for at least a warband going around being like why add stuff? Especially when you compare it to that super bright metal warband I think you way makes more sense than that - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowAs you pointed out in your video, any time an Iron Warrior is 'blessed' with a nice new tentacle or otherboon of Chaos, they cut it off! So to me it makes sense they wouldn't have any interest or respect for the symbology of Chaos, not beyond the utility of it for binding daemons anyway.
They used to have it that Iron Warriors could be devotees of Khorne, or would be more likely to fall to Khorne due to their warlike nature and it makes sense from the perspective that Khorne also represented the industry of Chaos although now they've introduced Vashtorr it makes more sense that Iron Warriors would bargain with him instead.
I also recall Perturabo's realisation that he believes in nothing. He thought he believed in the Emperor's mission until he was used for meatgrinder campaigns just because he's Legion was tough and good at it, and fought wars uncomplainingly. I think that's where they've missed a trick with Horus Heresy novels, you could really explore themes around getting what you put up with and how much of that is a person being used and how much is that they put themselves into a postion to be walked on; I think Dorn accuses Perturabo of something similar, saying he could've just fought differently but didn't so it was his own fault.
@@Gogsnik Yeah I think with that last bit the idea of someone is being used as a part of their symbolism. I am not sure how to translate that or if that would be part of their design because they may just try and avoid showing any of that for obvious reasons - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowI suppose they already do show it with their bare armour (why paint it if noone cares?) and the Legion symbol itself, an armoured skull, a skull that has what could be seen as a portcullis for a mouth, they are protected but also prevented from speaking. I think there's a lot you could discern from the imagery of the Iron Warriors. Of course then you have Perturabo, a name that seems a bit like perturbed and also perdurabo, Aleister Crowley's magical motto, "I will endure to the end".
I'm sure there are a number of psychological conditions that could be looked at, where a person sort of erass their own sense of self to endure a situation and the question arises, is it necessary, are you doing that to yourself or is it entirely forced upon you? Difficult to translate that into something visual on a model or in art that would drill down into it even more than how the Iron Warriors already look.
Studs and Black eyes!
I don't follow sorry 😐 - Cal
The problem is that there IS no "Post Heresy Iron Warriors specific design aesthetic"! There is just "General Chaos Space Marine aesthetic"! The horns, and gold trim and all the useless bling is very much NOT what the Iron Warriors are all about ... and many players actually file down and cut off.
Oh, and in the lore, it is mentioned that pre-Heresy Iron Warriors power armour was actually brighter/more shiny that post-Heresy. So the artwork is WRONG.
the hazard stripes is from a sense of humour, its stated in the horus heresy book with their tabletop rules, it contains also a segment about their heraldry. as a whole its a great source, liber astartes and hereticus have pages about the heraldry for every legion and explains certain things.
me and my friends have the running joke that Iron Warriors laugh at hazard stripes, because well, it is something to denote danger, and the iron warriors are either always in continual danger, or they are the danger in a given situation.
I personnally think its at its funniest when done to any weapon, like yeah, its a weapon, ofcourse its dangerous, but how better to communicate it to the enemy they are in danger than carrying some hazard stripes on your armour!
I personnally also think the reason the Iron Warriors dont look greek is based on the fact that well, they dont like Olympia, Perturabo does not like Olympia, so why the fuck would they share anything with that wretched planet?
The problem with Perturabo is the writers, he is two completely different people not two views of the same person but two actually completely different people. One of them would have some of his homeworld elements one would never until he saw all his brothers do it then he would out of spite. One of the biggest problems with the Primarchs was it felt like they had no guidelines as to what/who they were - Cal
hey your description still says emps children
Thanks for catching that we have changed it now - Sunny
Sorry that's my fault I am meant to double check things but we had a lot on this week, thank you for letting us know - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow no problem thought y'all would want to know is all ^^
What I think when I see Iron Warriors is brutality. They have very brutalist design about them. If it doesn't serve purpose, why bother. They don’t care for anything but getting the job done and move. They have very minimal design by comparison to other traitors and it makes sense. They are all cogs in a war machine that is IVth Legion, and their design reflect it, in sense of design, they are very spartan which ironically works with their Greek origins of Olympia and else. Not standard but once you think about it that way it works. The only design decision that could work to make them rely more on Greek origins is some introduction of red colour at a very specific way. Not to flashy, and something that looks that it could be mass produced with no problem.
I would agree with most if not all of that, and I think this is why we had such trouble redesigning them because we were like... okay make them more Greek? No... Make them even more minimalist? Well I mean they have more than Death Guard... so... It was a very difficult line to strike and I don't think we could do it - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah I agree. Hard to do something for the entire legion. Denote characters officers etc. Easy. All space marines hard. Also death guard post heresy has alot of things. Some of those things should have never been seen. At all. :)
Well I think some Space Marines are easier than others, like the Dark Angels, their 40k design is in my opinion the biggest downgrade ever! Whatever the opposite of a 'glow up' is, is what happened to them. But then you have other legions where you are like... oh okay so their design is focused around minimalism and a factory ascetic so if you add literally anything you start to break it... cool :/ - Cal
This guy sounds like Alt-Schwift-X
I know that name why do I know that name - Cal
Edit: oh yeah really? I really like that guy. I will take that as a compliment 😀
no ai generated images! huge!!
We use AI images for things we don't have primarily. We used it for 'stock images' of people in hobby stores where there are none on the internet or of highly identifiable people, then of things that don't exist yet. We are going to continue to use AI for this reason. And all of the videos where we actually use our own art where we spent thousands of dollars getting this art people don't watch so we don't really care if people are upset about AI art because they never put their money where their mouth is - Cal
We use AI images for concepts that are really niche that regular stock videos and images will not be able to provide, the more abstract the topic the more AI images you can expect. But I do think that people aren't watching our videos because we don't use AI or use it, it's because we put effort and thought into what we are explaining -Sunny
Great videos. I hate to be that guy but I have to point out, it's pronounced "anything else?" Not "anythink else?"
Honestly a huge part of the Iron Warriors is just how stubborn and bitter they are. The fact they really haven't changed their design much in ten thousand years fits their personality to a T. It's not surprising to me that you couldn't change or bend the warriors of iron. Unbending, bitter stubbornness is kinda their lifeblood. These guys are absolutely the kind of people to harbor a grudge for ten thousand years. The sort of petty, bitter hatred born of middle management. 😂
If I were to change the Iron Warriors, not an easy task, well I'd remove the Hazard Stripes, or have them feature much less prominently. They're way too flashy and attention grabbing for what the Iron Warriors are about. Yellow is not their color. I'd lean more into just pure black instead of stripes. They're a very serious and professional legion, and black suits them well. Maybe even going so far as to have a black trim instead of brass. I'd make them more grimy and oil stained. Instead of adding ornamentation or flair, I'd make them more simple and efficient by stripping aspects away.
I think removing the hazard stripes is the one thing I wouldn't do it's so iconic for them - Cal
Demicide?!?? IT'S DECIMATION. For crying out loud
When you are going off the top of your head in a conversation you will make mistakes - Cal
Didn't the democide happen to the World Eaters? I could be wrong but I thought that was from them
I think they were given one day to conquer the world and I cannot remember the punishment off the top of my head - Cal
Yeah Perty and angron both decimated their legions it’s just that it happened to the world eaters more then once 😅
@@razalfraz6618 Really? I can't remember that one, in which book does it happen? I thought I would remember something like that 🤔 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow angron did it in slaves of nuceria and perturabo did it I believe in the hammer of Olympia
@@razalfraz6618 Thanks I will have to check it out again