Well I would give that to the testament of the designers at GW! Because in design school we always say, if you can communicate something visually at first glance you did a good job and I think they do hit those visual points most of the times ~Sunny
@@01eksii Sunny knows a lot of the basics of a lot of the factions but not a lot of deep lore. This is going to be a problem with our next design vs lore Space Wolves. Because she knows them instantly so we are going to have a bit at the start explaining what she knows - Cal
I love this coverage of my favorite chapter. I can't wait till you two cover some successor chapters and compare them to their first founding counterparts.
Really glad you enjoy it, Colour choice is still part of the design thinking process its something brands have to consider when designing their logos so why should the legions be any different? I am happy you found it useful! ~Sunny
Man Sonny got to almost all of the lore I know about the white scars I learned in years in a few minutes lol great job! Loved the video as always and I'm looking forward to the next one!
We have to remember the orginal Primaris reinforcements were not from Chogoris. That could be why there is less character, they would need to integrate into the chapter first.
Well you're not wrong, but that scout picture was well before the Primarius reinforcements came through, same with some of the other space marines... I think a lot of effort was put into Horus Heresy design not so much effort into 40k - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow Chogoris, the home of the whitescars also isn't a monoethnic planet. There are the people of the plains(mongolians) and the people of the Palatine (a European analog)
The winged skull on the chest of many Space Marines is called the Imperialis, not the Aquila. They Aquila is the double headed eagle and represents the entirety of the Imperium of Man. The Imperialis is a Space Marine badge of honour and symbol of loyalty.
Timestamps ⏱ 0:00 Intro 0:25 Preheresy Design Breakdown 8:36 Preheresy Design Analysis 13:38 Preheresy Art 16:43 Preheresy Design vs Lore 24:28 Post Heresy Design Breakdown 31:58 Post Heresy Design Analysis 33:10 Post Heresy Art 36:56 Post Heresy Design vs Lore 38:58 Redesign 44:26 Outro 44:57 End Credit Joke If you know the artist which we weren't able to credit (we tried very hard to find who did them) please comment and we will add their credits in here as time goes on
Some times white is used in funeral ceremonies the world over because of it's connection to purity. In Chinese culture it's connected with the metal of gold and the west. I hope that answers your questions - Cal
Jaghatai Khan is actually named after a specific historical figure, Chagatai Khan in our IRL history, who was actually one of Genghis' immediate sons. When working on 30k Space Marine designs, I think the artists have a lot more wiggle room provided, being able to go farther with their designs due to its distancing with 40k. Especially due to a relative lack of corporate interference stifling their creative process since higher-ups are likely far more focused on 40k than they are on 30k. An element of White Scars culture that isn't mentioned much is what I think is one of the more interesting characteristics of them. Unlike Marines of other Legions and Chapters who either try to make something loftier out of themselves, or stew in misery and existential crises, or devote themselves to some cause or ideology, the White Scars just accept that they were made for war at face value, and don't actually mind it that much. In fact, more than any others, when in combat, they're actually known to be rather mirthful, as they're doing what they were literally made to do, cracking jokes, placing bets, and generally making light of the battle. Though certainly, while the only other chapter that seems to do this is the Space Wolves, unlike the Space Wolves who just do that, eat, drink, and bang, and move on, the White Scars also combine their way of "seeing beauty in battle" with an artistic flair similar to the Blood Angels, painting, writing stories and music, and more, though it's usually about their exploits in battle. Additionally, when Jaghatai defeated and conquered the tyrants of his homeworld, and basically declared himself emperor of Chogoris, he was actually scared that he would become complacent and lazy. He scorned the idea of being in a constant age of lack of challenge or competition. He even had a level of distrust for the Emperor after they met, seeing him as a megalomaniacal tyrant not that much better than the one he had just overthrown. But, the Emperor had the benefit of not having personally accosted Jaghatai in any way.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow not exactly learning due to the lack of good info and context. Just wanted to try something different for 40k like they have in 30k
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow it's when you do a desing better for a prequel, sort of what happens with star wars between the original trilogy and the episodes 1, 2 and 3, the guns look more futuristic, the ships have more detail and the clone armor looks better than storm trooper armor.
Loved the video and the thoughtful breakdown. I'm not a Space Marine player, or even an army painter, so I can wish that there were more unique signifiers in the sculpts... but I would'nt wish having to add tassles, rings and blessings to an entire army on top of white armour! But a unique Terminator squad... now that's a dream I could approach.
Waiting for the GW market to cool before I can join that.... He says after noticing the KillTeam box set (Krieg vs Orks) is a decent price (in comparison to other sets)
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow just announced that the WH mini of the month, for April, is a Deathwing knight Terminator. Fingers crossed stocks in our little local store lasts until the weekend
you guys missed the latest white scar models that looks REALLY COOL, ESPECIALLY with the NEW helmet design!!! for the redesign MAYBE, we can have some of them don't even have the shoulder pads? so they can look smaller and looks "faster" if you get me.
Ha! you bring up that guy too we actually had him in the pictures we were thinking about showing but we ultimately decided against it because... just like we avoid talking about the primarch we try and avoid talking about special character too because we focus on the legion. As for redesign we will have to have a think on things - Cal
@@lilruss15 100% we actually had it in our gallery for this video and we were tempted to talk about him... but we felt it would be breaking the rules - Cal
You stated out off base with thinking Chinese in their design. But you did eventually pick up that The White Scars are based on Mongolia, rather than China. Quite impressed.
White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders and Imperial Fists don't get enough stuff for years. I mean, just give them some sort of upgrade pack, but not that half-assed overpriced upgrade pack, give something we can actually work with. Or give extra bits to some new special unit like they already did with Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
I would agree with you on 90% of thaat but I think the Imperial Fists have been getting more stuff over the years. I think they are quietly becoming the next major space marine faction - Cal
As a white scars painter it’s not as hard as people make it out to be. Once you learn the Khan’s secret, you don’t paint white, you paint light grey like uthuan grey. Save white for highlights.
I love, love, love, love, love these design vs lore breakdowns that you do. If I may humbly request Raven Guard. Would love to hear what you both have to say about their design.
Something I think is important to note with Space Marine designs, especially with differences between 40k and the Horus Heresy is that, while chronologically in-universe the Heresy designs are "older", in our universe, the Heresy designs are actually newer. It's more of a reflection of older, simpler concepts being fleshed out more with time and effort, but being situated retroactively into the past of a setting. Though admittedly the Primaris Designs are quite new, and they don't have the excuse of the older artwork. Still, another bit of context worth noting is that in 40k, these are sub factions of a larger Space Marine faction, and they have to share model and design resources with Xenos or other Imperial and Chaos factions in terms of unique models and sculpts. They have less design space just to themselves, as much as it doesn't feel like it sometimes with how hard GW goes on Marines. In the Horus Heresy, every Space Marine Legion is essentially a faction in and of itself, with full ranges devoted to what would be a relative footnote in 40k, especially for the would be Undivided Chaos Legions. There's a lot more motivation and resources in the Horus Heresy setting to really flesh out the Space Marine Legions and give them all these unique cultural touches, stuff that can't be quite as easily justified in 40k. Admittedly a lot of the Heresy flavor really should flow over into 40k, and GW needs to put out better upgrade kits with additional flavor for 40k, but it's important to put it all into context a little bit, especially for really old pieces of art and illustrations of model schemes. I'm not sure the story arc of "The White Scars are slowly losing their culture over time" is entirely intentional, as much as it is a result of the circumstances of the model ranges. Modern White Scars in 40k just need a lot of kitbashing and dipping into the Heresy range I think. 😅 The White Scars are a good example of the context being necessary, because they've always been sorta underappreciated, and it's with the Heresy that their flavor really has come to shine. Though Primaris has always been awful for the cultural flavor of all Space Marine stuff regardless. Not to mention not all Space Marine chapters and legions are treated equally in the flavor department. The Dark Angels are almost their own full faction in 40k, alongside the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. The White Scars are "Codex Compliant" and are treated more like generic Space Marines than they honestly deserve. You'll see this more with the likes of the Salamanders too, of them being a lot more generic in 40k than 30k. The White Scars and the Salamanders were hit particularly hard with lack of flavor for 40k, because their aesthetics rely on it a lot. The generic Space Marine doesn't represent their lore as well as like the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. Though one could also argue that for the likes of the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors too even if CSM are a different faction entirely in 40k.
It is noted in the lore that Jaghatai is the Primarch that rivals Vulcan in his care of the people of the Imperium. Notably during the siege of Terra. Jaghatai really did see himself and his son as the heroic defenders of humanity.
It was impressive to me how close the psychology of the legion was based on the colors alone. My only comment is they don’t have the “uncaring” from the white in the terms that you put it. They are aloof from the rest of the imperium because the imperium judges them barbarians. Look at the story Arc for Shiban Khan during the heresy/siege of Terra, or when Dorn forbids Jaghatai to ride out from behind the walls to fight, and Jaghatai turns to sanguinius asking “If I ride out will I save lives?” When sanguinius responds “many” the scars sally out despite Dorns orders. In my opinion, the white scars are the most noble chapters. Jaghatai knows the emperor is a tyrant, but chooses to serve because he judges him better than the alternative. Of all the legions, the white scars refused to be manipulated during the heresy remaining neutral, even leaving the space wolves to die at the hands of the alpha legion, until they knew the truth of what was happening.
Not every colour psychology trait will match exactly but it's a combination of design elements and shape design that will bring out certain traits in a colour more than others, the goal is always to give an instant impression and using predominantly white will normally signal a positive and noble messaging ~Sunny
Cool video ! Made me want to paint a White Scar, even tho I didnt care about them before. Would be cool to see you talk about the Sisters of Battle and Imperial Knights.
I think what would be really cool is an Imperial Guard detachment done up in white uniforms with dust all over them and obviously not Mogolian with dirty big scars on their faces Love the passion- Cal
You mentioned spears with explosives. And that's really interesting from a historical perspective, because the Chinese literally had a weapon like that during the Mongol invasion: They would take a clay pot, put gunpowder in it, attach a fuse, and attach the whole thing to the tip of a spear. It was like a primitive fragmentation grenade. I don't know if the Mongols used that, but they certainly used it against the Mongols. So in theory, they could have adapted something like that to their fighting style.
14:00 - It also conveys a sense of overcompensation, emphasizing the hypermasculine vibe of an Astartes compared to a normal human with the knee-jerk impression of riding a giant dildo into combat.
So the black armored legion terminators are actually not standard ones. They're called the Ebon Keshig and they serve as a ritual assignment for atonement and redemption for those that have acted dishonorably. That's the nutshell version anyway.
We do know that from the research but we feel that is a more interesting element to the idea of terminator armour use. Rather than being the best of the best like in other Legions/Chapters they are those trying to redeem themselves because in a Legion/Chapter that is all about speed what would be the most frustrating thing - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowEben Keshig were still some of the best of the best. They weren't all in terminator plate, only those that had earned the right to were it before joining the Ebon Keshig could use it while in the Ebon Keshig.
I do like the concept of having both Chinese and Mongolian style of armor mixed together, AND THERE IS ONE!!! called "Iron Pagoda Armor", you can check that one out
Yeah Sunny saw it when we were researching for the videos visuals but, she thought it didn't fit the marine/lamellar style armour being shown. And people may pick at things... which is unfortunate because as you said it is a real historical armour - Cal
love the color and symbolism analysis video! So their culture erosion was either due to primaris or codex astartes compliance? So either way it's Space romans fault 😂 I was one of the many people who didn't know much about the white scars because are always forgotten about. It's a running joke in lore and in irl that they are the forgotten sons. I felt like there wasn't much lore besides 'zoomy bois, but mongol' until they started the heresy books and stories with jaghatai khan to really flesh them out and really do them justice. Fortunately they've been showing much more love to them in the horus heresy, and with the design suggestions you suggested it seems they have quite the amount of culture to draw on and take inspiration from.
Everyone blames Space Rome but never Space Carthage... But more seriously yeah your not wrong about the lore was zoom but Mongolian. I still think it focuses more on Khan than on the actual legion though. Glad you enjoyed the video - Cal
🔥🎸🔥 Once again, nice job Sunny! My appreciation for how well the colors within the WarHammer universe have developed over the decades has grown. The current setting really embraces color has symbolism and gives a maturity to the current designs. Hopefully GW gives a chapter update fitting of such a loved chapter and gives them a proper expression of their unique culture. And yeah, they all look the same. I mean common... it's White Scars. Thanks for the video! ❤
Thank you very much for your comment, I am just glad I did the review justice and couldn't agree with you more. Ever since reviewing Emperor's Children, White Scars got me excited after seeing the images to the point that I wanted to paint them, so it was a shame to see them diluted in the end ~ Sunny
I went with a straight Wild Rider red, to give them a friendlier look, as mine is a search and rescue successor chapter. I also found the Orange on white does say safety kinda like a hunters vest.
Hello! Just discovered this, im a White Scars fan. I agree 40k look more bland and generic... and yet.... has some upsides. It helps 30k a lot because it creates that sense of 30k being archaic and historical. Like ww2 soldiers versus 17th/18th century with all the colours and embellishments. Graphically I also really like the impact of the tribal markings on helmets and greaves against on clean white armour. I also kinda love the contrast of clean white look with the grimness of head/skull.trophies. The fan art goes a little too far for me in terms of detail and distraction. I do like the idea of more differentiation on details like seals and weapons and i like the right arm on the fan art with the rope bound parchments. Some fur cloaks would be good too. Seen a cool fan art with snow leopard type furs. Cheers!
Sounds like you enjoyed it we are super glad you did 😊 I think the contrast is great too, but dust and stuff is also good for contrast doesn't have to be heads ha ha - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah that was pretty easy to pick up. This video really made me focus on just how much they (GW) have made them gradually more and more generic and plain. The breakdowns you both do are top tier.
Some of the newer horus heresy models have done a better job at making the models look unique. Like with the stormseer announced last year and the recently announced hibou khan. I just hope they follow through with this design for 40k.
Well, it's not so bad that the "Mongol" legion was initially mistaken for "Chinese". There should be a slightly racist joke about Asians "all looking the same", but there won't be one. Let's rather focus on the history of China, which included the Yuan Dynasty, which was literally the Mongols conquering China. So as an element of this transition, the White Scars fit in quite well - after all, their primarch is literally a carbon copy of Genghis Khan, and the Yuan dynasty is precisely the descendants of Genghis Khan.
Not sure what's more triggering - Sunny calling a primarch a "primaris" or the fact that I'll never see a White Scars lightning bolt without thinking Power Ranger ever again 😂 Kidding of course. GW really should have come up with a better name than primaris. I was confused for at least a month myself!
The you know primary guy, his the one, the prime dude. (Guess which one I am talking about with out context) Glad you enjoyed it and live with the scar on your mind of POWER RANGERS - Cal
Unfortunately I think you're right I think the thing that keeps people away from them is actually the white, the idea of painting a whole white army - Cal
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
It's facinating how close Sunny often gets to figuring out the legions
Well I would give that to the testament of the designers at GW! Because in design school we always say, if you can communicate something visually at first glance you did a good job and I think they do hit those visual points most of the times ~Sunny
Indeed, as almost she knew all of it beforehand 😀
@@01eksii Sunny knows a lot of the basics of a lot of the factions but not a lot of deep lore. This is going to be a problem with our next design vs lore Space Wolves. Because she knows them instantly so we are going to have a bit at the start explaining what she knows - Cal
I love this coverage of my favorite chapter. I can't wait till you two cover some successor chapters and compare them to their first founding counterparts.
Well that's a while off yet because we have just barely got a quarter of the way there, only one a month - Cal
"looks like a power ranger" proceeds to make the armor even more like the power rangers with a red and white diamond motif
Ha ha 100% still looks good though - Cal
Tis true haha ~ Sunny
I love how you guys tie in color theory into the design choices of these legions, bless you guys.
Glad you like it! We try very hard to make colour harmony and psychology understand and enjoyable - Cal
Really glad you enjoy it, Colour choice is still part of the design thinking process its something brands have to consider when designing their logos so why should the legions be any different? I am happy you found it useful! ~Sunny
Man Sonny got to almost all of the lore I know about the white scars I learned in years in a few minutes lol great job! Loved the video as always and I'm looking forward to the next one!
I'm super glad I got it right! Thanks a lot for the high praise I do try he he 😏😂 ~ Sunny
We have to remember the orginal Primaris reinforcements were not from Chogoris. That could be why there is less character, they would need to integrate into the chapter first.
Well you're not wrong, but that scout picture was well before the Primarius reinforcements came through, same with some of the other space marines... I think a lot of effort was put into Horus Heresy design not so much effort into 40k - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow Chogoris, the home of the whitescars also isn't a monoethnic planet. There are the people of the plains(mongolians) and the people of the Palatine (a European analog)
The winged skull on the chest of many Space Marines is called the Imperialis, not the Aquila. They Aquila is the double headed eagle and represents the entirety of the Imperium of Man. The Imperialis is a Space Marine badge of honour and symbol of loyalty.
Timestamps ⏱
0:00 Intro
0:25 Preheresy Design Breakdown
8:36 Preheresy Design Analysis
13:38 Preheresy Art
16:43 Preheresy Design vs Lore
24:28 Post Heresy Design Breakdown
31:58 Post Heresy Design Analysis
33:10 Post Heresy Art
36:56 Post Heresy Design vs Lore
38:58 Redesign
44:26 Outro
44:57 End Credit Joke
If you know the artist which we weren't able to credit (we tried very hard to find who did them) please comment and we will add their credits in here as time goes on
I do remember hearing that in Chinese culture, the color white also symbolizes death aswell as purity iirc
Some times white is used in funeral ceremonies the world over because of it's connection to purity. In Chinese culture it's connected with the metal of gold and the west. I hope that answers your questions - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Thanks, I think you explained it quite well
Jaghatai Khan is actually named after a specific historical figure, Chagatai Khan in our IRL history, who was actually one of Genghis' immediate sons.
When working on 30k Space Marine designs, I think the artists have a lot more wiggle room provided, being able to go farther with their designs due to its distancing with 40k. Especially due to a relative lack of corporate interference stifling their creative process since higher-ups are likely far more focused on 40k than they are on 30k.
An element of White Scars culture that isn't mentioned much is what I think is one of the more interesting characteristics of them. Unlike Marines of other Legions and Chapters who either try to make something loftier out of themselves, or stew in misery and existential crises, or devote themselves to some cause or ideology, the White Scars just accept that they were made for war at face value, and don't actually mind it that much. In fact, more than any others, when in combat, they're actually known to be rather mirthful, as they're doing what they were literally made to do, cracking jokes, placing bets, and generally making light of the battle. Though certainly, while the only other chapter that seems to do this is the Space Wolves, unlike the Space Wolves who just do that, eat, drink, and bang, and move on, the White Scars also combine their way of "seeing beauty in battle" with an artistic flair similar to the Blood Angels, painting, writing stories and music, and more, though it's usually about their exploits in battle.
Additionally, when Jaghatai defeated and conquered the tyrants of his homeworld, and basically declared himself emperor of Chogoris, he was actually scared that he would become complacent and lazy. He scorned the idea of being in a constant age of lack of challenge or competition. He even had a level of distrust for the Emperor after they met, seeing him as a megalomaniacal tyrant not that much better than the one he had just overthrown. But, the Emperor had the benefit of not having personally accosted Jaghatai in any way.
I just hope you enjoyed the episode 😓 - Cal
Nice timing! I was actually looking into learning Mongolian script to try a banner design for these guys.
Finding one might be easier than learning a language 😛 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow not exactly learning due to the lack of good info and context. Just wanted to try something different for 40k like they have in 30k
Totally get it ☺️ - Cal
That's really awesome!! 🔥🔥 ~Sunny
Oh man did I just found a gem of a channel, it would be interesting to see you guys design a civilian or ceremonial cloth for each chapter would wear.
Thank you for the praise, we are going to keep doing that but that does sound interesting - Cal
These videos have made me realize that 30k designs are basically universally better
@@damanOts you know what you're not, you're not wrong - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow it's when you do a desing better for a prequel, sort of what happens with star wars between the original trilogy and the episodes 1, 2 and 3, the guns look more futuristic, the ships have more detail and the clone armor looks better than storm trooper armor.
Love the love for the white scars! Best legion
I hope we did them justice then ☺️ - Cal
You know as I was editing it I got excited to paint or build a white scar model myself it was just so darn interesting and expressive ~ Sunny
Loved the video and the thoughtful breakdown. I'm not a Space Marine player, or even an army painter, so I can wish that there were more unique signifiers in the sculpts... but I would'nt wish having to add tassles, rings and blessings to an entire army on top of white armour!
But a unique Terminator squad... now that's a dream I could approach.
You doing a unique terminator squad... Then Justin, Alex and Brushstrokes - Cal
Waiting for the GW market to cool before I can join that.... He says after noticing the KillTeam box set (Krieg vs Orks) is a decent price (in comparison to other sets)
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow but painting towards a common goal does often provide the impetus that I often lack to complete projects in a timely manner 🤔
@@SgtT8ie Well you know what you're not... you're not wrong - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow just announced that the WH mini of the month, for April, is a Deathwing knight Terminator. Fingers crossed stocks in our little local store lasts until the weekend
you guys missed the latest white scar models that looks REALLY COOL, ESPECIALLY with the NEW helmet design!!!
for the redesign MAYBE, we can have some of them don't even have the shoulder pads? so they can look smaller and looks "faster" if you get me.
Ha! you bring up that guy too we actually had him in the pictures we were thinking about showing but we ultimately decided against it because... just like we avoid talking about the primarch we try and avoid talking about special character too because we focus on the legion.
As for redesign we will have to have a think on things - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I totally see your point, that model is a named character so probably not fit as a "variation" but an actual character
@@lilruss15 100% we actually had it in our gallery for this video and we were tempted to talk about him... but we felt it would be breaking the rules - Cal
You stated out off base with thinking Chinese in their design. But you did eventually pick up that The White Scars are based on Mongolia, rather than China. Quite impressed.
I can always thumbs these videos up before they even start.
We don't mind if you wait to watch ha ha 😉 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow It's such a great series
White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders and Imperial Fists don't get enough stuff for years. I mean, just give them some sort of upgrade pack, but not that half-assed overpriced upgrade pack, give something we can actually work with. Or give extra bits to some new special unit like they already did with Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
I would agree with you on 90% of thaat but I think the Imperial Fists have been getting more stuff over the years. I think they are quietly becoming the next major space marine faction - Cal
Awesome lore, but the red on white has always been an intimidating paint job for me!
Well it has never been an easy one ha ha - Cal
I will agree on a practical level, it's a hard army to paint...like imperial fists 😎🤣 ~Sunny
They are the first army I’m painting. It’s definitely doable. Don’t let the paint scare you away from one of the most flavorful factions out there.
As a white scars painter it’s not as hard as people make it out to be. Once you learn the Khan’s secret, you don’t paint white, you paint light grey like uthuan grey. Save white for highlights.
The comparison to the Feng Shui HappyCat... Cannot be unseen.
It has been revealed, and now cannot be unseen - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow nothing is hidden from the Emperor's Vision.
Ha ha ha 😂🤣😂 - Cal
I came across it while looking for images and I went that's it!!! Let's hope the peoples catch it 😄 ~Sunny
I love, love, love, love, love these design vs lore breakdowns that you do.
If I may humbly request Raven Guard.
Would love to hear what you both have to say about their design.
Unfortunately their number means you will be waiting awhile but we'll be doing them eventually - Cal
Something I think is important to note with Space Marine designs, especially with differences between 40k and the Horus Heresy is that, while chronologically in-universe the Heresy designs are "older", in our universe, the Heresy designs are actually newer. It's more of a reflection of older, simpler concepts being fleshed out more with time and effort, but being situated retroactively into the past of a setting. Though admittedly the Primaris Designs are quite new, and they don't have the excuse of the older artwork.
Still, another bit of context worth noting is that in 40k, these are sub factions of a larger Space Marine faction, and they have to share model and design resources with Xenos or other Imperial and Chaos factions in terms of unique models and sculpts. They have less design space just to themselves, as much as it doesn't feel like it sometimes with how hard GW goes on Marines.
In the Horus Heresy, every Space Marine Legion is essentially a faction in and of itself, with full ranges devoted to what would be a relative footnote in 40k, especially for the would be Undivided Chaos Legions. There's a lot more motivation and resources in the Horus Heresy setting to really flesh out the Space Marine Legions and give them all these unique cultural touches, stuff that can't be quite as easily justified in 40k. Admittedly a lot of the Heresy flavor really should flow over into 40k, and GW needs to put out better upgrade kits with additional flavor for 40k, but it's important to put it all into context a little bit, especially for really old pieces of art and illustrations of model schemes. I'm not sure the story arc of "The White Scars are slowly losing their culture over time" is entirely intentional, as much as it is a result of the circumstances of the model ranges. Modern White Scars in 40k just need a lot of kitbashing and dipping into the Heresy range I think. 😅
The White Scars are a good example of the context being necessary, because they've always been sorta underappreciated, and it's with the Heresy that their flavor really has come to shine. Though Primaris has always been awful for the cultural flavor of all Space Marine stuff regardless. Not to mention not all Space Marine chapters and legions are treated equally in the flavor department. The Dark Angels are almost their own full faction in 40k, alongside the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. The White Scars are "Codex Compliant" and are treated more like generic Space Marines than they honestly deserve. You'll see this more with the likes of the Salamanders too, of them being a lot more generic in 40k than 30k. The White Scars and the Salamanders were hit particularly hard with lack of flavor for 40k, because their aesthetics rely on it a lot. The generic Space Marine doesn't represent their lore as well as like the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. Though one could also argue that for the likes of the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors too even if CSM are a different faction entirely in 40k.
It is noted in the lore that Jaghatai is the Primarch that rivals Vulcan in his care of the people of the Imperium. Notably during the siege of Terra. Jaghatai really did see himself and his son as the heroic defenders of humanity.
It was impressive to me how close the psychology of the legion was based on the colors alone. My only comment is they don’t have the “uncaring” from the white in the terms that you put it. They are aloof from the rest of the imperium because the imperium judges them barbarians. Look at the story Arc for Shiban Khan during the heresy/siege of Terra, or when Dorn forbids Jaghatai to ride out from behind the walls to fight, and Jaghatai turns to sanguinius asking “If I ride out will I save lives?” When sanguinius responds “many” the scars sally out despite Dorns orders.
In my opinion, the white scars are the most noble chapters. Jaghatai knows the emperor is a tyrant, but chooses to serve because he judges him better than the alternative. Of all the legions, the white scars refused to be manipulated during the heresy remaining neutral, even leaving the space wolves to die at the hands of the alpha legion, until they knew the truth of what was happening.
Not every colour psychology trait will match exactly but it's a combination of design elements and shape design that will bring out certain traits in a colour more than others, the goal is always to give an instant impression and using predominantly white will normally signal a positive and noble messaging ~Sunny
Cool video ! Made me want to paint a White Scar, even tho I didnt care about them before.
Would be cool to see you talk about the Sisters of Battle and Imperial Knights.
I think what would be really cool is an Imperial Guard detachment done up in white uniforms with dust all over them and obviously not Mogolian with dirty big scars on their faces
Love the passion- Cal
You mentioned spears with explosives. And that's really interesting from a historical perspective, because the Chinese literally had a weapon like that during the Mongol invasion: They would take a clay pot, put gunpowder in it, attach a fuse, and attach the whole thing to the tip of a spear. It was like a primitive fragmentation grenade. I don't know if the Mongols used that, but they certainly used it against the Mongols. So in theory, they could have adapted something like that to their fighting style.
14:00 - It also conveys a sense of overcompensation, emphasizing the hypermasculine vibe of an Astartes compared to a normal human with the knee-jerk impression of riding a giant dildo into combat.
So the black armored legion terminators are actually not standard ones. They're called the Ebon Keshig and they serve as a ritual assignment for atonement and redemption for those that have acted dishonorably. That's the nutshell version anyway.
We do know that from the research but we feel that is a more interesting element to the idea of terminator armour use. Rather than being the best of the best like in other Legions/Chapters they are those trying to redeem themselves because in a Legion/Chapter that is all about speed what would be the most frustrating thing - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowEben Keshig were still some of the best of the best. They weren't all in terminator plate, only those that had earned the right to were it before joining the Ebon Keshig could use it while in the Ebon Keshig.
I do like the concept of having both Chinese and Mongolian style of armor mixed together, AND THERE IS ONE!!! called "Iron Pagoda Armor", you can check that one out
Yeah Sunny saw it when we were researching for the videos visuals but, she thought it didn't fit the marine/lamellar style armour being shown. And people may pick at things... which is unfortunate because as you said it is a real historical armour - Cal
Sunny is a genius
I wish there was a swole head emoji 🤣🧠
Shh quick hide this comment before Cal sees it hahahah ~Sunny
I found the comment, it's because they designed them well Sunny is no genius hrumph I say - Cal
love the color and symbolism analysis video! So their culture erosion was either due to primaris or codex astartes compliance? So either way it's Space romans fault 😂
I was one of the many people who didn't know much about the white scars because are always forgotten about. It's a running joke in lore and in irl that they are the forgotten sons. I felt like there wasn't much lore besides 'zoomy bois, but mongol' until they started the heresy books and stories with jaghatai khan to really flesh them out and really do them justice. Fortunately they've been showing much more love to them in the horus heresy, and with the design suggestions you suggested it seems they have quite the amount of culture to draw on and take inspiration from.
Everyone blames Space Rome but never Space Carthage...
But more seriously yeah your not wrong about the lore was zoom but Mongolian. I still think it focuses more on Khan than on the actual legion though. Glad you enjoyed the video - Cal
I would be very intrigued to see a video on the Imperial Fists.
Aquilas are specifically eagles. I don't know how skull with wing are named though, lol.
That's why we just called them Aquilas like how black and white are shades not colours but people call them colours cause its easier, even we do - Cal
I have those discontinued torsos and they add a lot of flavor, but mark 2 white scars helmets are the best
They were so nice ☺️ - Cal
🔥🎸🔥
Once again, nice job Sunny!
My appreciation for how well the colors within the WarHammer universe have developed over the decades has grown. The current setting really embraces color has symbolism and gives a maturity to the current designs. Hopefully GW gives a chapter update fitting of such a loved chapter and gives them a proper expression of their unique culture.
And yeah, they all look the same. I mean common... it's White Scars.
Thanks for the video! ❤
Thank you very much for your comment, I am just glad I did the review justice and couldn't agree with you more. Ever since reviewing Emperor's Children, White Scars got me excited after seeing the images to the point that I wanted to paint them, so it was a shame to see them diluted in the end ~ Sunny
Kublai Khan ruled china as emperor. So using chinese symbols and equipment is very appropriate for the White Scars
Totally - Cal
I went with a straight Wild Rider red, to give them a friendlier look, as mine is a search and rescue successor chapter. I also found the Orange on white does say safety kinda like a hunters vest.
Hello! Just discovered this, im a White Scars fan. I agree 40k look more bland and generic... and yet.... has some upsides. It helps 30k a lot because it creates that sense of 30k being archaic and historical. Like ww2 soldiers versus 17th/18th century with all the colours and embellishments. Graphically I also really like the impact of the tribal markings on helmets and greaves against on clean white armour. I also kinda love the contrast of clean white look with the grimness of head/skull.trophies. The fan art goes a little too far for me in terms of detail and distraction. I do like the idea of more differentiation on details like seals and weapons and i like the right arm on the fan art with the rope bound parchments. Some fur cloaks would be good too. Seen a cool fan art with snow leopard type furs. Cheers!
Sounds like you enjoyed it we are super glad you did 😊 I think the contrast is great too, but dust and stuff is also good for contrast doesn't have to be heads ha ha - Cal
Sunny Absolutely nailed this.
Thanks a lot! Could you tell I was extra excited because I had more knowledge on the Asian culture bits? 😂 ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah that was pretty easy to pick up.
This video really made me focus on just how much they (GW) have made them gradually more and more generic and plain.
The breakdowns you both do are top tier.
Some of the newer horus heresy models have done a better job at making the models look unique. Like with the stormseer announced last year and the recently announced hibou khan. I just hope they follow through with this design for 40k.
Yeah I agree - Cal
I find mini Hibou Khan face paint a bit lame compared to other artworks, where he has face painted like he's in Japanese theatre
@@Jfk2Mr I do prefer the helmeted version over the bare face
@@beannguyenkhac4332 agreed, I too like his helmet, but I also dislike how bare face was painted in preview
@@Jfk2Mr @beannguyenkhac4332 we like seeing discussions like this in the comments it makes us think we found the right audience - Cal
She was so close, I mean much of the Chinese culture came from the time the mongolians conquered them.
Oh that's interesting! ~ Sunny
Well, it's not so bad that the "Mongol" legion was initially mistaken for "Chinese". There should be a slightly racist joke about Asians "all looking the same", but there won't be one. Let's rather focus on the history of China, which included the Yuan Dynasty, which was literally the Mongols conquering China. So as an element of this transition, the White Scars fit in quite well - after all, their primarch is literally a carbon copy of Genghis Khan, and the Yuan dynasty is precisely the descendants of Genghis Khan.
GODDAMN MONGORIANS!
Not sure what's more triggering - Sunny calling a primarch a "primaris" or the fact that I'll never see a White Scars lightning bolt without thinking Power Ranger ever again 😂
Kidding of course. GW really should have come up with a better name than primaris. I was confused for at least a month myself!
The you know primary guy, his the one, the prime dude. (Guess which one I am talking about with out context)
Glad you enjoyed it and live with the scar on your mind of POWER RANGERS - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow🤣 I heard that first bit entirely in Sunny's voice as I was reading it
19:21 they call themselves the white scars yet they have a red scar 🤣design fail
There's actually an in lore reason for the difference if you bother to look.
I hate how generic Primaris marines always are.
Which is why I'm sticking to firstborn forever
I agree I definitely regret going 40k instead of HH for my white scars, hopefully they also get a new 40k model/ unit.
I think for all the coolness the White scars have, they actually aren't that popular.
Unfortunately I think you're right I think the thing that keeps people away from them is actually the white, the idea of painting a whole white army - Cal