Why Does TF2 Have Random Crits?
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2023
- rare high moments™
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support the channel - / lister
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songs used:
Mighty Switch Force! OST - Jive Bot
Shantae: Half-Genie Hero OST - Tassel Town
Shantae and the Seven Sirens OST - Sunken Shipyard
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interviews referenced:
Games For Windows Magazine interview with Robin Walker (2007)
web.archive.org/web/201605281...
IGN interview with Robin Walker + Charlie Brown (2007)
www.ign.com/articles/2007/04/...
RockPaperShotgun interview with Robin Walker + Charlie Brown (2007)
www.rockpapershotgun.com/rps-... 
Игры
![Why Can't Certain Weapons Random Crit? [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bMSGMTaxCvc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why Can't Certain Weapons Random Crit? [TF2]](/img/tr.png)
![The Art of Phlog Canceling [TF2 Exploit]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fvl1_hfMI_s/mqdefault.jpg)
The killcam isn't just a "relationship" feature. If a sentry or sniper kills me, I will know their location. It's very useful.
This helps understand how crit bucket cheats work.
I just wish they would quit asking me to save it
пиро мейн фурри ахуеть пиздец пока мими турель прямо перед твоим лицом стоит шпион если вы вставите это в переводчик и лайкните комментарий, то под подушкой вы не находите нихуя. идёт?
There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a spy decloaking behind sniper after you get deleted by his headshot
@@s0biektywnie fun fact: i got prime cuts badge in 2 matches on first one i got everyone except the medic but on the other one i got only soldier and the medic and i got the badge
Rare high moments.
RaRe HiGh MoMeNtS
@@thewhiteguy8079rare high moments.
Uncommon elevated events.
Common low periods.
Occasional altitudinous junctions
I'm glad to see a creator add something to this decade-old discussion besides "are bad, pls remove." It's always more interesting to delve into the rationale behind decisions.
And having dived into them, we can safely say that they are cosmically awful and should be removed. I swear if they invented a new kind of toilet paper that was wrapped in barbed wire some people would get personally hurt when people got mad at the company.
@@thebigyes8482 Random crits do bring down overly competetive players down from the high horse down to the casual ground that the game was made for in the first place. High skill ceiling, but also low skill floor on top of being different from most other fps formats putting 24 players on 2 opposing teams on same server.
Game was, is and will be a clusterfuck and it's perfect this way. Not everything needs to be sterile.
@@simplysmiley4670 removing the casual aspects don't make it sterile. Casual players like well balanced games, even if subconsciously.
@@elfascisto6549 That's kind of a slippery slope though. Even if we remove crits, there will still be 'unbalanced' weapons. And if we 'balance' those, there will still be 'unbalanced' maps, strategies, exploits, match-ups, etc. Nothing can ever be completely balanced. This is the issue that CSGO had, where even the concept of physics props seemed too unbalanced and had to be nailed down to fit the sterilized nature of the game. To this day, people complain about minor issues causing imbalance, as though the ultimate goal is to have squares shooting at other squares with perfectly similar weapons.
Where we draw the line of balance is entirely subjective, so people arguing for it are more or less saying "we should remove crits because I don't like them".
@@simplysmiley4670 I can scarcely think of a mechanic in TF2 more ‘sterile’ than random crits. It destroys player interaction.
I love TF2 for it’s casual aspects. I really love demomen flying across the map to pick off snipers with a pan or ham, snipers headshotting invisible spies by complete accident, scout duels where two veterans miss all six shots and killbind, and I especially love hoovies throwing
Sandwiches to the enemy team regardless of if I’m trying to win the match. I love these things because I imagine two people sitting behind screens making this stupid shit happen because they have been presented with this amazing sandbox in which to fuck around. At the same time, there can also be super sweaty duels between players of any skill level happening on the same map, and that’s also a big part of why I love TF2. Random crits ruin the latter when they come into play, giving a huge advantage to the more experienced or tryhard players for obvious reasons.
When a random crit happens, it’s not a human interaction, it’s a calculation made by a computer that dictates whether players will have an interaction, be that competitive or bizzare, or whether one of them will lose any sense of satisfaction and the other’s experience will be hit with a speed bump as they will have to look at a respawn timer for the next ten seconds. I find that quite sterile.
It amazes me that tf2’s maps were so absolutely terrible and chokey and defence oriented that valve thought giving the attackers a 15% chance to triple their damage after making any amount of progress was justified
10:35
I think there's another puzzle piece worth trying: dropping your crit chance back to zero after getting a crit. This would give one team momentum without turning it into an unreversable curbstomp
Also making the chance drop faster to make it so that you have to deal constant damage to keep the crit chance high enough
This was quite an interesting shift of view. It nearly persuaded me, until I experience everyday random crit tomfoolery again in casual.
i love random grits like the highs of dishing them and the lows of receiving them are something that you don’t really feel much in video games and is unique to tf2
I've seen a head canon of random crits where Mann co are horrendous at making weapons and the random crit is when the weapon actually works properly
It's insanely silly how the only actual explanation of random crits was unironically "It allows pubstompers to stomp pubs harder"
I agree, I think close games are much more exciting than one-sided games, and I think snowball mechanics for PvP games are almost always bad in concept and implementation. It's an awful TF2 experience to join a TF2 match that is almost already over and your team has half the points of the enemy team.
@@iminumst7827a little snowballing is important though. The respawn system is designed to snowball. If you have NO snowballing mechanics you get a ton of stalemates. Just check instant respawn servers for an example, defense is impossible to break. Random Crits having a snowball feature is bad sure but the broader concept of momentum advantages is essential for any game with respawns.
Thats not the "only actual explanation" You are just seething that there is a mechanic of probabilty in a game, do you cry about crits in games like dota, BOO HOO HE CRIT ME 4 TIMES IN A ROW SO UNFAIR. BOO HOO.
@@Nikotheleepic would it be OK to have a random "dodge" mechanic that negates damage randomly? Surely that'd be fine, right?
The issue isn't that it's random, the issue is that it's shit. it ruins fights (dying to a crit you got doinked by 40km away around a corner because of no damage scaling), and ruins fights (interesting 1v1s get stuffed by the funny instant win). There's no defense to keep it in the game other than "le whacky moment xd" - as if TF2 needs a random win button to be silly.
Brain-dead pubbies may enjoy it, but randomness isn't a good thing. there's a reason they removed random damage spread lol, they should've axed crits while they were at it.
@@Nikotheleepic
I have never seen anyone who actually enjoys playing MOBAs
"We created Team Fortress 2's critical-hit system so that critical-hit chances increase over time based on performance. There's the skill. If you're a good player, you'll always have a higher chance of hitting criticals than novices. On top of that, there's the flat-out fact that crit chance is determined when you fire, right? You can miss crits." - Robin Walker
Wow, this quote looks eerily similar to "It allows pubstompers to stomp pubs harder", just with a sugarcoating
Random crits are fair and balanced but only when I get them
tru
No it’s only when I get them
No it's only when i get them
No it's only when I get them
No it's only when I get them
Great video. For anyone who’s interested in the random crits topic, I highly suggest watching Lister’s other video “Why Can’t Certain Weapons Random Crit?”. Surprisingly, it’s not just a meme attribute that valve uses to slap on random weapons
and the one on random damage spread. the RNG trilogy
I think Gaben made a deal with rnjesus and this is the result
Edit: sorry I forgotten Robin Walker was the main guy behind the deal with Gaben as Walker's ambassador
funny Valve_Frying_Pan.png
Seeing the editing, audio and scripts get better and better each video has been a sight to see. Well done to you and everyone who worked on the video, seeing someone improve so fast makes me appreciate this really rare high moment.
I remember, when first playing Team Fortress 2, random crits were something I was incredibly confused by random crits because I would never get them. It was only after months of playing that I realized I was only using weapons that couldn't get them - Sniper rifles, swords, knives, and, especially, the Caber. But by that point, I had such a negative relationship with crits that I just wanted them gone entirely so I didn't have to deal with them.
A lack of random shits is yet another reason why I'm in love with the Dragon's Fury
lmao
in other words, skill issue
Skill issie
how did bro forget how to english
As long as they exist in the game i will audibly wheeze whenever I tank trough one with the batalions backup
weezer referenc
Very interesting video, it’s nice to look at the intention valve had when designing the mechanic, and how their words were misconstrued by the community
Another amazing video-seriously, they just keep getting better and better! I can’t think of anyone else who could make such a well-researched video that corrects popular misconceptions on such a controversial subject, and so clearly and concisely. Not just one of the best TF2bers, but one of the best gaming youtubers period!
I would argue that Team Fortress isn't quite as balanced as people make it out to be, at least competitively. "Generalist" classes are the only real serious option in a lot of situations, and certain classes (Spy and engineer) see almost zero play across the board at high levels (6s). Highlander is a Band-Aid solution, but that's not even mentioning Sniper, who invalidates every class interaction in the game.
I agree, that's the reason valve never support TF2's comp, compared to that of CS or DOTA.
@@articcenturion8387 they did try for a while
its just that most of that was kinda half assed
Certain classes also deal with the issue of being the class most don’t want to play but which have to be picked that valve tried to avoid in the first place. Medic and heavy primarily. I say heavy also because a heavy is paramount in some pushes to take and dish out damage to most classes which usually would be more free to do whatever they want. He is the frontline which if kept alive will push the team to victory, which means in most offensive and sometimes defensive situations, as some point the heavy is kinda needed or is actually viable.
Medic and heavy aren’t as enticing of options as the other classes for most, so they end up being the least played classes, especially in pubs, even though they are both very important.
Valve tried to avoid this with demo and succeeded, but as a result they forgot to do that with classes like medic and heavy. It sucks because both have potential to go outside of their class roles every once in a while and be viable, but they aren’t given the chance.
I’d argue tf2 is at least somewhat well balanced
6s isn’t tf2 though
In a real game 12 players mean scout is much less effective due to 1v1s being less common and his counters being more common and also any game mode other than 5cp and koth actually lets people play other classes and the more engineers and heavy’s allowed to leave the spawn room for once the less effective a try hard scout can be on his own
Also engineer is used at high levels of comp bust mostly as a final point holder like heavy
This was a fantastic video, I never thought of it this way before. Applying this logic would also explain why CTF gives crits when you capture the flag.
Another great video! The scripting and the tone of your voice plus the editing really bring this video essay style of video together! I’m looking forward to your future endeavors!
Why wouldn’t you wanna ruin 8/9 classes with one crit rocket and then leaving the last one begging for his life because, you got lucky!
Funny
*Laughs in pyro main*
One thing I think they could do is add crit explosion radius falloff for rockets in particular, but I don’t know how that would pan out and I think more experimenting would have to be done.
I personally enjoy the random element that random crits provide. Yes they can be frustrating to get killed by, yes they can ruin a good 1v1, but going on a crit streak with the pan or reflecting a random crit rocket is so much fun.
I have a Scottsman's Skullcutter with crit kills as a tracked stat that I use exclusively on DeGroot Keep and boy do those crit streaks roll hard.
Random crits being kept in game to give a scapegoat for more competitive players to complain about is honestly the best reason to keep them in game.
The issue is that that also doesn't work
They're just another thing to bitch and moan and complain about on top of sniper and the wrangler and airblast strafe knockout and and and
Balancing the game over actual balance
Overdone, bland, noone agrees
Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic"
Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit
@@disgustingg ay, that be true. Give competitive players Lichtenstein and they'll take Russia.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron "Balancing the game over actual balance
Overdone, bland, no one agrees" I actually agree with that, and you unironically made a better argument for random crits then against. I strongly disagree with the statement that TF2 is a balanced game because I feel such a statement ignores all the side grade weapons that exist within this game, and that the game steers towards encouraging stupid, dumb fun in its design rather then balance.
"Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic"
Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit" I do not remember saying anything similar to this.
@@Goallpeashooters "Don't remember saying anything like that"
Here, you said "give a scapegoat for more competitive players to complain about".
Obviously a game will never be perfectly balanced but it's such a waste to not even try to reward skill. Soldier is an example. He's such a fun and skill rewarding class, there are several ways to play, he's highly mobile, basically the peak of TF2. He also has an extremely high skill ceiling mechanically. If we balance around making things reward skill better than we can have a really good game, it's not right to just waste this potential
rare to find a commenter suggest this but, i would say like almost all of this guy’s viewers are not subscribed despite him having a large currently “loyal” audience, obviously you dont have to subscribe but he seriously has only 35K subs yet has a lot of views AND likes on his tf2 history videos
Probably because he doesn't do funny SFM tf2uber quick edits, dramatic voiceover, or throws meaningless hot takes.
Despite being years old majority of TF2's fanbase has always been wacky lolsorandom type
@@gurlight2131tf2 content was always random and loud = funny tf are you talking about?
I just realized I wasn't subed. huh, weird.
Clearly the solution to this is to give players random ubers to compensate. For every damage taken, you have a small chance of being invulnerable for 2 seconds
Ooohh, interesting idea!
What if, instead of Uber, it would be a miss?
Like the Bonk!
It would even make Sniper a little bit more fair to fight, as, if the sniper misses, you have the chance to fight back(or run for your life)!
Is this serious or a joke?
@@roland.w *Morrowind Flashbacks*
@@O5MO I'm taking it seriously, so 🤷
@@roland.w that's interesting, although i suppose it would only amplify the anger random crits provide, since its infuriating for the attacked, but the defender wouldn't even notice, making it a net negative.
cause hittin the random crit is fun.
I think the player isnt actually supposed to plan around random crits like how it's described in your video. It seems like it's there to subliminally condition people to push harder when they're performing well (since they sometimes get a reward for doing so), which would make sense since the goal is to motivate people to maintain momentum.
Personally I think I actually feel the effect of the conditioning because so many times I remember mowing down a team as heavy and then not wanting to retreat back because I had a feeling I could get even more kills if I keep going further, and then half the time I would actually be right and get a few crits to kill a couple more enemies.
This guy gets it. Finally someone who uses their brain
Did you watch the rest of the video? He says that the base rate is too high and the slope is too shallow for that conditioning to actually work properly. Plus, there's already a benefit to getting a few kills: man advantage. Why do we need to give the winning team an even stranger advantage?
@@fedweezy4976 one: his reference to the crit slope was specifically for the reasons why momentum isn't being kept >>NOT>CONDITIONING
"(since they sometimes get a reward for doing so)" my guy, if thewyre already performing well THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN RECIEVING A REWARD OF KILLING THE ENEMY
@@Helperbot-2000 ok??? The goal is to encourage people to recognize when they're ahead and utilize the momentum not just to "kill enemies harder"...... nothing you said was clever. Clearly the game just existing didn't fix that problem like you implied it would.
This is such a well made video. Great job!
Critical hits currently seem to encourage individual aggressiveness rather than teamwork. So I'm a bit surprised that the random crit floor wasn't made to dynamically alter based thru-out a match. Like on Attack/Defend & Payload games, BLU Team's base crit rate could be based on objective progress, increasing as more progress is made & if progress is currently being made. RED Team's base crit rate could increase as the timer draws closer to zero, leading to more decisive shut downs. More symmetric game modes could still adjust crit rate based on objective progress & could just give both teams an increase based the timer nearing zero. This would make matches more hectic as they drag on...
I ain't a game designer tho, don't know how this would actually affect the game, & knowing TF2's spaghetti code this would probably be too difficult & time consuming to properly implement.
CTF does have capture crits.
Good luck with teamwork with 12 randos on the internet who could play game for 5 minutes or 5000 hours and stop in the middle of battle to laugh at funny ragdoll
Eh respawning times already kind of do that which why random crits on top of it make it feel even worse.
I genuinely never fully understood the logic behind random crits until you explained it in this video. Awesome job!
They're good when I get them but bad when they hit me
This is my totally unbiased stance on the matter
10/10 video. Splendid and intelligent script with some silky smooth editing
This is highly inteesting. I read the blog posts, listened to the commentaries and saw countless videos and forum posts on random crits. I understood the intention behind them, but somehow, until I saw this video, I couldn't really understand how Valve came to the conclusion that this would work like they imagined in practice. I think it makes more sense now, thank you.
I played TF2 Classic for a long while now since my wifi is a bit shit and vanilla TF2's training bots have poorly coded AI, but TF2C's AI is more realistic to actual players. But that's not my point, my point is that TF2C *has no random crits*, and it actually took me a while to notice that. And in many times the game actually became boring because I missed the satisfying expectation that in many moments like a crit swing or a rocket into a large group will have a crit in them. But sadly no, it never happened. And so when I got to hop into TF2 again and I got a random crit, it was like reuniting with an old friend again.
There isn't a better feeling in TF2 than being a lone medic with an enemy soldier in my face, I'm at 50 HP and I decide to do a desperate melee swing.
That sweet, sweet 195 damage, letting me live another day. I love how encounters in TF2 aren't set in stone.
??? what part of that was "set in stone" if you took out the random crits, the entire point of playing medic is that you aren't supposed to take 1v1s
literally the counterplay is "do not go in alone at 50 health against a good 1v1 class"
Melee crits are more common than normal hits.
This is actually incredibly cool. Great video!
Random crits are..
Fun.
That is all that matters to me.
I find random crits funny so i love them.
simple as
Some weapons also rely on random crits to be effective. Scotsman's Skullcutter makes you run slower when active but on the other hand its the only "sword" to let you random crit with it, Third Degree is also another one where its just a typical stock axe with the ability to damag both the medic and patient as long as they are connected. Alternatively random crit also acts as a nerf like with Ubersaw, sure you killed that spy and gained 25% of uber on hit which turned out to be a crit, but it's better to get a 2nd hit instead.
If you get the 25 uber on hit and kill the spy you can build the rest of uber. Without random crits the spy can gun you down after the first shot
Crit-farming with the skullcutter is the funnest. The extra damage adds really nicely into it.
Also making medics shit themselves when you whip out the third degree is the most hilarious thing. He has to gamble whether healing his current pocket is worth this risk of getting beamcrit, or if it's better to bail before it's too late. It's like a trustfall but as a game mechanic, I'm not sure which is the funnier outcome. Both of them getting a synchronized death, or a the pocket standing over a pyro that crumpled like paper and just realizing his medic abandoned him.
In a first person shooter game (or third person) no matter what game it is there is undoubtable one unfair feature within the game that no player can really overcome, and I'll tell you what it's not what your expecting. The most unfair part of any game is skill. Now think about for a moment what a truly fair fight it, it is a fight in which both combatants are on evenly placed situations with none prohibiting or favoring the other. In such a "fair fight" there is truthfully no determining factor at which would decide the winner, as they are completely equal in all aspects for it is fair. Skill is an unfair system and that is it's most appealing part, in any fight there always has to be some determining factor that favors either side for them to win or else it be like having two people punch each other with the same amount of force. Tf2 has both features meant to inhibit and favor the determining factor to be skill. Such as with weapon rebalances and teamwork oriented features, all things meant to reward and make sure success within a skill based determining factor. While with things like sentries and Ubers, both something at which can be achieved by waiting in safe zones are things that deter the determining factor from being skill. As this video demonstrates and with what I have just layed out, shows that Valve's design is focused secondarily on skill and more of game flow. I think that Random Kritz are purposely meant to be easy to obtain and rewarding as it alters skill from being a determining factor in game flow. As per with the purpose of Uber's and Sentries they both change game flow in a slower or faster pace, however these both can cause the opposite of what their meant to by halting game flow in a fast or slow pace. By having random Kritz remove skill from being an entire determining factor of victory and being able to alter game flow pace mechanics such as sentries and medics (before Ubered), It succeeds as a mechanic that makes game flow constantly variable and undeterminable by any main factors besides a role of the dice. Which is why I think that Kritz aren't a good mechanic, but a successful mechanic in what purpose it brings to the game. Which is also why I think casual is so different of an experience compared to servers.
7:46
"Theory only gets you so far"
- Robbie J. Sloppenheimer
You are genuinely my favorite tf2 youtuber. Keep up the amazing work!!
But U are mine :)
I think another thing to make random crits more enjoyable is making the gun glow like the kritkrieg. It would help the player who got the crit and say “hey, you got a nuke in your hand, push!” which is exactly what using your momentum is supposed to be. plus a few changes to make crits less infuriating.
I mean Shounic did an experiment exactly like that and it was pretty well received
ruclips.net/video/YURn9IkYSqI/видео.html
Shounic make a video teating this very thing
This was tested before. The problem is that people would farm for crits at spawn and use them at first sight with the enemy.
That's a good idea. Add to that have the person with the glowing weapon also be marked for death. Just like with scouts Crit cola. Giving the player with the crit a risk and reward factor.
@@a348d imagine being randomly marked for death through no fault of your own.
Dude that demo flying throw your screen at 12:21 scared the hell out of me 😂
new lister video is the highlight of my day
The reasons people give for liking random crits are always poorly reasoned. But the catch is that people like it, regardless of their brainrot reasons. Why would the game remove something that half the players like? If I was the lead TF2 developer and I had the switch to flip off random crits... I don't think I would do it despite how much I dislike crits. There's game design philosophy, and then there's just doing what people want. The sad reality is not enough people want random crits removed, polls always come up close. I would only remove random crits if I had strong evidence that many players quit TF2 because of random crits specifically, that would invalidate the currently close polls.
Pretty much every conversation about random crits splits it down the middle of around 50%. That's mostly data from people who are big fans of TF2, the casual audience might be lower or higher for whatever reasons.
Valve obviously care and I'd go so far as to say most Valve employees probably don't like crits. But if it is about 50/50 split, they're always going to default to doing exactly what they do best: Nothing.
@@VanessaMagick I'd go so far as to say there aren't more than 1 Valve employees that care much about TF2 at all. But otherwise I agree.
I think it's interesting how different the two camps are here because the "no random crit gang" always tries to bring game design into it and explain their hate for it, but the people who enjoy random crits just enjoy the spice regardless of how stupid it may be.
In simpler matters of taste, I'd argue no one is 100% objectively correct, but it is funny to watch people try to explain their opinion as "the best one". I think they have a point in the sense that if I were designing a shooter nowadays, I wouldn't put them in, or at the very least I would design them differently. But I'm relatively neutral here. I like the variety/spice they bring to matches overall, and yeah it does feel worse when I'm pounded by them constantly, but I'd rather feel something than let the game feel more solved and potentially boring. That being said, I wouldn't exactly bellyache if they were default off on Valve's servers a la Uncletopia.
All this being said, the video demonstrating Valve's rationale (and why it's similarly flawed in practice) is quite interesting.
Why not silently remove them? That way noone will go on a rampage about how it all of a sudden "Became too competitive" then weeks later say you are going to rmeove them
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Community servers have disabled random crits and nobody even realized they were turned off.
I doubt you could turn ON crits on like, Uncletopia without people noticing though
I actually love feeling like the boss that is destined to lose in a long drawn out battle. its like a final stand.
Never thought is this before great vid!
I love the discussion about highs and lows towards the end of the first third of the video, especially the comparison between TF2 and other games wherein it is mentioned that TF2 advanced pacing in multiplayer games where other games of the time did not. Speaks to the genius of the game's design.
I can’t believe they didn’t master Etc. 😔
6:18 *Voice communication is not available for this account*
He's back!
Not gonna like, your scripts are basically the best source for me as a german to learn more [less commonly used] vocabulary.
brilliant video-- really illuminative demonstration of valve's m.o., as they use really specific tweaks to foster such ebbs and flows in the pacing of a match. great vid!
"For those rare high moments" TF2 dev.
I'm happy this video wasn't just another "I died to a crit rocket and it hurt my feelings remove them now." You make some very interesting points.
This also would make it, since it scales with damage dealt instead of deaths or damage recieved, really easy to spawn camp. If it had a more Underdog system (and the random crits dealt less damage) it would probably help that Crescendo they want. That way it feels like even if you are spawn camped you still have a fighting chance. That way that final push, even when being steamrolled, would still be climactic.
This is the best video on random crits I’ve ever seen in tf2 circles congratulations
I like how random crits influence players thinking more than it affects teams, in any other game a player will get punished for overextending, here both new and old players can get a potential reward in random crits for doing the same thing even creating that sense of high, it makes the player build up this sense of bravery and pushing forward that any other game will try and punish you for
but crits dont help new players
@@ib6458 but it does, new players will learn that building a lead in any match will earn them the victory, but because they are new they will feel like leaving it to everyone else, but having gained a sense of bravery will lead to them defying all logic and jump to a 5v1 encounter in order to fight the impossible odds and become THE roadblock the enemy has to fight, its great
Except like the video pointed out, random crits are too rare to be relied on. I've never in my thousands of hours in TF2 pushed because I thought "ooh I have a 8%ish chance to get a crit!"
If you want to look at a mechanic that actually gives players bravery to push in the way you are claiming, Soldier banners are a superior implementation of that idea.
Also even if crits theoretically help new players, you are kinda overlooking the fact that most new players don't know what's going on, and probably don't even know what random crits are. They just think "why did I sho0t a shiny rocket!?"
@@iminumst7827 EXACTLY, they are really rare yeah, but when you do a callback on your previous reaction to a situation, all you will remember are the times you one shot every single class with one melee swing, that moment you killed 3 guys with a single explosion, that time you held a point all on your own, just completely impossible moments, all just because you were a little braver, the best part would be that as you said the new guy doesnt even know what he did, he just make the imposible a reality, and he never will know
i like the soldier banners tho the sound they make are so awesome
@@undererlevelmob7605 but like, that never happens, i dont know what world u live in, but i got 4 friends into tf2 and NONE of them thought for a second that a RANDOM crit would help them win, what u said, about jumping into a 1v5, is called playing stupid, so having a CHANCE, aka something RANDOM that you cant count on, would just have the new guy play like a dumbass and get kills because of it, and yes, playing like a dumbass is a thing, but it isnt RANDOM, skill gets you out of it, not a 2% to kill everyone, ur a bot if u think a new player can get into a 1v5 without dying, and bc of a random crit can kill everyone, thats stupid, and its stupid u think this could happen. and the new guy cant even become a roadblock bc the RANDOM crit is RANDOM and isnt 100% gonna happen, when have you died to a RANDOM crit and thought, "i earned that kill from skill alone, not bc i jumped the enemy team bc i suck a fps's and i lack gamesense, but bc i knew that this 2% RANDOM crit would save me"
Im avoiding no crit servers these days since trying to stop the tryhard demo and medic combo rolling the server with an uncoordinated team without crits is frankly impossible haha. So they serve their purpose imo
yes i think he missed that point. random crits make very good players less powerful and new players more valid. which increases the casualness of tf2. i think they serve this purpose quite well
Just go spy
@@HeDronHeDronHedronanybody with more than 2 hours will recognize a spy from a mile away lil bro
except when the pro demo is the one getting random crits constantly (since he is the one doing the damage, ramping up his own random crit chance), at that point he is just stomping harder, leaving your team with even LESS options
@@SpreadLoveMovies no, random crits SPECIFICALLY reward those who are better at the game more
its crazy i never noticed the pacing design before, but its so obvious if you think about it, like thats the reason the final point of (almost) every map is ultra chokey and with red spawn literally next to the point
I've played TF2 for close to 10 years (though not consistently) and I don't really remember much of it. Sure, I've had absolutely great moments and absolutely terrible moments, but they only stick for a little while. However, the one moment I still remember quite vividly, despite it happening a long-long time ago, was the start of a match on 2Fort when I fired a random crit at the enemy balcony, killing 3-4 players before they even knew what was happening.
For me, that was quite magical. Probably less so for the unlucky buggers I crocketed. But I think it is an example of the justifications dug up for keeping the failed mechanic: this creating random lucky moments where the stars align and you'll manage something you'll remember and talk about for weeks or more to come. I don't remember my first backstab as a Spy, or my first headshot as a Sniper, or my first Ubercharge as a Medic, or my first time topping a scoreboard. All great moments, lost to the ravages of time. But that one random Crocket that was a literal WTF-moment...
That's gonna last me a lifetime.
At least for another couple of years.
Personally I have always believed that crits help keep the game chaotic and casual, with most servers that turn it off being a good boy sweatier.
Could be a non causation situation though, where sweaty players are simply more likely to be drawn to crits turned off
Casual games are already pretty chaotic without random crits, you got rockets and gun fire happening everywhere and trying not to get your head taken off by snipers, but crits just sorta end that chaos by just killing your target in one fell swoop, it's not really chaotic it's just anti climatic. I feel like crits were only made to keep player interest, but they don't need to exist anymore because we are already interested in the other well developed machanics
The game will be chaotic, no matter what. It's 100% non-causation. I'd love for them to remove random crits in casual because Uncletopia just isn't the same.
@@madre6970 Did you know enemy team have 12 people not 1?
@@realdragon 12 targets
@@blueberrimuffin6682uncletopia is a trash server 😂
Im tited of pretending random crits are bad, i love them theyre silly
they are bad
This was fascinating, and something I'd never known in all my time with TF2! Finally, an explanation behind the madness.
Why every video i avoid it ends up being way better than i expected?
Grat vid
11:00
I had this exact thing happen in my last game. Everything was going good, we were barely holding off each attack by the thinnest of margins. 30 seconds left to go, a heavy fresh from spawn just walks out into the line of fire, got the random crits that just destroyed a good third of the team before anyone even had a chance to respond. The game just said 'you lose here and there's nothing your team could have done to prevent it'
So accept the loss and move on instead of "NOTHING WE COULD DO I CANT ACCEPT A DEFEAT LIKE MY PRIDE DEPENDS ON IT".
I like how you amusingly challenge our uncritical mind by leading us to one direction and believe the known-all tf2ber just to say the opposite "this is great! or that's what I would have said if it was actually the case... (you fools!)"
(you also do it at the right pace to let us realize it - which is great)
You deserve way more subs man
I think random crits are hilarious, every time i blow up to one or blow up someone else i laugh a lot
i think random crits are garbage, evbery time i die from one i get annoyed, every time i kill someone (unless i was in an already funny situation with an enemy like beeing friendly and fucking around in which case the random crit didnt substantially improve my enjoyment more anyways) i get annoyed that i didnt get to have a fun fight or feel bad because i know it was completely undeserved
I say sorry whenever I random crit someone lol.
Hahaha very fucking funny to just get undeserved kills
I've been playing pretty much daily since beta and I like the crit system. Some people use it as a cope as to why they died, but in most cases they were going to die anyways, crit or not.
It feels like it’s more often than not. The amount of times I’m playing on a map with a corridor and I flank as scout and land a perfect meatshot for the soldier to just instantly turn around and pop a crit….
"but in most cases they were going to die anyways, crit or not." so the crits are pointless in most cases, got it. and the rest are undeserved kills rewarded to those who already do really well
@@Helperbot-2000 keep coping lil homey, I'll just keep having fun fragging like always ✌️
peak pro random crit argumentation:@@deeteeohbee6794
0:12 I just love how pyro wins again spy, medic again engie and sniper against heavy, just like in game
My reason is because it’s just really fucking funny like imagine you go up to a medic and bash his skull in with a bottle and it just kills him instantly
I've been playing TF2 since orangebox and I sincerely hope Valve never removed random crits. Even if it isn't entirely the intention, I feel it's one of the mechanics that helps keep new and casual players coming. Getting a crit kill has a huge impact on someone who would be otherwise struggling to keep up with higher skill players and can make what would be an unfulfilling experience enjoyable. I've seen so many games like this fade into obscurity where only the diehard expert fans stick around, and trying to get into such games as a new player usually ends in extremely frustrating stomps that lead to uninstalling. As someone who's been on both sides of that, I would much rather have good gameplay sessions occasionally interrupted by RNG than see the game die to a lack of players.
I also hope they don't tune the rates to get a more substantial momentum driver - I prefer if it stays as it is; something that has an effect that difficult to notice. I don't really like the idea of dreading a snowballing effect of a particularly effective push. Such things would lead to more people giving up after such events more than not, even further amplifying the effect. It's much better when we can't really see what such a mechanic is doing to gameplay.
pfft, yeah that's whats going to kill this fucking game: a lack of random crits
it's not the lack of content updates, the shitty anti-cheat, rampant bots, the lack of transparency, it's the random crits that's going to keep newbies coming to this game
@@cinereus4670 actually yes
You play games to feel good and have fun and enjoy yourselves.
If you are a newbie in a game like tf2 you re going to get grounded pretty quickly by more competent players.
Doing bad is annoying but keeps you in the game to improve.
But getting 0 KILLS instantly destroys your motivation to play and learn the game.
So a random crit experienced by a newbie is :
A cool flashy explosion or trail of effects that made you get one or multiple kills in a cool way and the release of dopamine of feeling good about doing it.
Its the first taste of accomplishment and gives them a reason to stay and get better even if they are total noobs.
if you people dislike random crits so much why i dont hear yall talk about the crits you get after capping the flag on capture the flag.
I feel those are way more annoying since its 100% crit chance that last for some time and the entire team gets them all at once.
What this means essentially is stay away from enemies until team crits ends.
I find this a lot worse yet no one gives a crap about it.
@@fangrowls6336 ctf is already a dogshit gamemode for that and other reasons (map pool, lack of timer, etc) that I complain about but the key point there is that we can opt put of it, it's not a fundamental game mechanic
also while I can't deny it's fun to get a random crit, it's just that, a little fun that doesn't pull me to the game. when someone joins the community it's because they love the style, the gameplay, the weapon variety, and often times new content like jungle inferno and the most recent major update that added VSH and a bunch of new maps, tf2 literally hit an all time high in july because there was a crumb of new content and a bunch of content creators playing it
people don't come back for random crits, they come back because of the content, like fortnite or cod does. those games are a lot different and are of varying quality but the key point is that the developers are supporting the game, instead of leaving it in the dust like how titanfall 2 was
You lost me at claiming random crits are what helps getting new people into the game when it's more the other way around
@@s0biektywnie most noobs do get them and feel good
for me, random crits are a sudden increase of confidence in the chaos of the battle what lets the character hit a critical whit 80% accuracy. epic
Killer thumbnail man!
Insanely good video
Random crits are on the same wave length as Hydro: A neat idea on launch, but just doesn't work in practise. The difference being, that you can't put random crits in alternative game modes and forget about it.
yeah you can just go on servers without random crits
You can leave them in MVM (And VSH), since robots dont get angry being on the recieving end, and in VSH only Hale would recieve crits, but it doesnt matter much to him.
"It doesn't work in practice"
Then why it works in practice?
@@realdragon Yes, you can ger random crits in practise, Hydro is also a map you can play and finish on. What doesn't work in practise is how the developers intended it to work. Nobody looks at random crits to decide wether to push or not. And Hydro isn't on 2Fort levels in term of usage for it's replayability.
I think it would be interesting that, if not only you raise you crit chance by dealing damage, you could also do the same by taking damage, meaning that, in theory, the last push wouldn't be so much of a cake walk, and the defending team could have a last stand by this crit rate too, although it would probably also mean that the attacking team would also have access to this mechanic too. Maybe make it only affect the defending team? I dunno
This would contradict the pacing, since now the crit chance for both teams would be around the same, and only rng would decide the outcome
this contradicts the reasons random crits were added and also doesn't satisfy people who don't like RNG. you basically found the worst possible idea.
Well structured vid and fun to watch. I suggest you look into your lerp settings though, your projectiles are really delayed. It would feel more comfortable for you to play.
i loved that you included mother 3 as an example i love you
what custom HUD do you use
What if, instead of each shot having a random chance go crit, you had a crit meter that filled with damage and gave you a single crit on your next attack once it was full? That would still allow for those big finales, where the winning team builds up their meter faster, and also allows for crazy strategies to work alongside tactical decisions. Like, you could have a few people build up crits and Al charge in at once, or just run in on your own if you think you can deal enough damage at the perfect time to guarantee a crit.
No... i appreciate the effort, but this is just bad. It would encourage people to just build up there crits and be cautious of the other team having more damage, and also it still doesn't solve the whole "pubstompers can stomp pubs harder" problems random crits give out. You basically turn every weapon into a snow balling weapon, which isn't balanced in the slightest
@@madre6970 it achieves the original goals of random crits without any randomness, and you could argue that it would be more balanced than a typical snowball weapon since almost every player would be using at least one weapon with a meter. What if it decayed over time as well, so that you couldn’t be cautious and you had to rush in and deal a lot of damage very quickly to fill it?
@Geebanger0 it's not exactly more balanced than a snowball weapon. For one, every weapon does a different amount of damage, so one weapon is always gonna get crits more than the other, especially for demoman and soldier who pretty much have the highest burst damage in the game. The reason why every weapon having crits is not good is because every single weapon already does a lot of damage. At most, almost every single weapon takes 2 shots to kill 8 out of the 9 classes, and theres many more weapon unlocks that allow you to deal even more damage. Kritzkreig, buffbanner, direct hit, sodapopper, crit o cola, panic attack. Even the sniper has more a more damaging sniper rifle called the machina. There simply isn't a need for one soldier guy to deal over 300 damage when you could have a team of people using their own skill and tools to kill the other team. If you want a game where you build up a meter then theres overwatch
2 in 1 month? Truly blessed
random crits are something like "pay to win" correctly more damage to win.
only one idea for havinbg random crits is random crits only for dying players: when the game starts, all players have 0% chance for random crit, but soon as someone dies and doesn't kill anyone, he get a small chance for a crit, and if he kill someone, his chance decreases. In practice, this means that the more you fail, the stronger you become and when you have high killstreak you cant have random crit.
But still, the best option is to completely remove this mechanic
Wow, at 7500 hours, i think im changing my stance on random crits... i can see your point and like the ideas you listed, thanks!
This comment section is too civil and polite - lets change that :
Random Crits keeps the tryhards in check. It keeps the fun & casual nature of TF2 maintained, knowing that all their skill and practice will help them 90% of the match. Just not that 10%.
It affects the overall mood of the server. Look at uncletopia and nocrit "casual" servers - the moment there's a single tryhard demo and medic gf you're FORCED to tryhard yourself, just to survive. Then the meta loadouts comes, nofun scouts, and it just becomes comp-lite.
"But random crits benefit tryhards the most because they do most damage"
And they get mad the most when killed by a crocket. Pablo.Gonzales.2007 isn't crying at the crocket, he was getting stomped anyways. But Pablo was not killing anyone on his own, maybe assists. When he gets the crocket kill (especially a revenge kill), he gets the high moment he's missing in the game. Tryhard pubstomper gets no additional enjoyment. He's just rewarded more multikills if enemies are grouped together (opposing team's fault).
Random crits raises the high moments for lower skilled(or effort) players, and in turn lowers the already high ego of a high skilled (or effort) player. The best thing a tryhard can do when killed by random crit is realize this game is meant to be taken lightly, have fun, and realize their "skills" are good for 90% of the game time, just let others remaining have fun.
I just want random crits to remain the way it is in most of the servers, and nocrits to remain in other dedicated servers for those who want it. When i want to tryhard, i just play counterstrike/dota2/valorant/any other multiplayer game in the market. I want TF2 to remain "that fun game". That's the reason even after 15 years, this game is noob friendly, and not completely dominated by high level players.
Absolutely agree.
I believe that even in the most competitive scenarios, you still need a little bit of randomness to make things fun and interesting for the players and spectators alike. Although, specifically I would say something random that can be accounted for on the fly. Like a terrain change or something, but not getting a massive damage buff out of nowhere that skews the results of a fight. That's not fun to experience or watch. Having a slight variation in a fight that cannot be necessarily planned for, but can be accounted for is what I believe brings out those instinctual game winning decisions that are extremely hype.
"Besides, I like the phlog, so what do I know?" has got to be the funniest last words to a video yet.
I've been working on a multiplayer FPS game inspired primarily by TF2 for quite some time now, and it's fascinating to see Valve's reasoning behind random kritz.
My game has a similar system for turns out a similar reasons: most weapons get kritboosted for a single shot for 2 seconds, so one player can feasibly rip and tear through the entire enemy team, as long as they can aim.
I wonder if it would work in the context of TF2.
I hope it won't take 9 years in development for your game. Is it your first game or are you working in a team?
@@gurlight2131 it's not my first game per se, but it is the first of this scale. Multiplayer is kind of out of my depth, tbh.
And I do work alone, because I'm an insufferable bitch.
Just wanna say that I appreciate that you tried to look at random crits objectively and the design philosophy behind them, and not the usual viewpoint of "random crits bad because random" and harping on about why you don't like them.
To be fair, this video is still kinda an argument on why they don't work
This video popped up on my dash and I was immediately like "Oh, this is gonna be a good one." Love when that happens
I bet that the evolution of sniper will be the shortest video out of all 9 classes.
2007: sniper can click on heads
2009: huntsman
2017: now snipers click on heads with a bunch of different glorified reskins
random crits is a mechanic that has a good idea, it rewards aggresiveness. and its randomness meant that it can act as actual rare high moments. its just,
Best video on the subject, actually gives me insight into why Valve justified crits without actually defending crits. I don't think snowball mechanics are good, games are more exciting when the advantage swings back and forth until the final unpredictable conclusion. It's not interesting playing a match that I know the outcome of. Momentum can also be an extremely negative experience considering in TF2 you can join a match or be forced to switch team near the end of a match. In this way, I think Valve's philosophy is wrong on this one subject. But if Valve does want to commit to this philosophy, the proper way would be to remove random crits, extend all team's respawn timer, and add an announcer voiceline for when more than half a team is dead. Another option is granting minicrits to the team that caps, and minicrits to defenders when timer is low.
Extended respawn times are counter-intuitive to fun.
Umm no I love crits, go away crits hating clown.
I don’t even play TF2 but I love this video. What an awesome lesson in game design!
I think a change to random crits that would possibly be okay for tf2 players is for the chance if random crits increase based on their killstreak
I have come to see random crits as a way to keep newer players engaged when they are outclassed by experienced players
people love this theoretical idea but I haven't seen one new player say this.
I never thought about this.
I like random crit because its random, it threw all the meta out the window. When everything is predictable and calculated, it gets really boring fast.
Its amazing i hate random crits because it throws away the games meta and i prefer the amazing system in a match valve created where everything is skill based and calculated i can see how the game can get boring if u only play on 24 hour 2fort community servers tho
@@Xx_SuperPenis_xX Random crits are there to bring you, the sweaty player, down to our casual level.
@@joebagel9715if u paid attention to the video you'd know the sweating player gets more random crits
@@joebagel9715 it doesn't do that at all though? it does exactly the opposite? maybe valve's intent was to trick people like you into thinking that's the case but actually reward the good players instead, in which case bravo it clearly worked
"We're not dying! We are going to live forever!"
―Soldier from Team Fortress 2
I didn't say that:/ I just said we weren't filled with tumors:/
i like random crits in tf2. seeing a spy walking up to you while playing sniper, he expects to get an easy kill but then you whip out your kukri and whack him in the head for huge damage. sure I just got lucky, but it's insanely satisfying. if i die to a random crit, chances are i would have died anyways
I like them, they’re fun. The asymmetrical balance and unpredictability they bring always breaks up the monotony for me. Too many games are too concerned with balance at all costs these days without considering fun.
but random crits arent fun
@@laprueba6521they are. They are the biggest boon of AOE weapons and melee
Then you never played spy. As spy there awful, cause they kill you instanly. With only 800 damage you have 60% I think. Sniper, Medic can easily beat you, but spy cant do random crits, everyone can kill him with a normal hit, but he cant, only with skill (stair stabs f.e.). They make spy even worse and make him so hard
@@la_englische_vita I mean, sure, spy is awful, but it's more than being bonked. First of all, why are you getting whacked in the first place? You are a spy. You should always strike first and true
@@laprueba6521 mad becuase bad