The Issue with "Self Defense"
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2024
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The title changed
What? How the heck did that happen? Did you do it??
Your videos are great.
@@SenseiSeth Why are you being so self-defensive? 😅
I’ve been kicked in the gut in a couple fights. Front kicked by a wrestler who then tackled me to the ground and round house kicked by a lunatic, skinny karate guy. Luckily I was able to get him into a guillotine.
While taking a similar seminar on self defence that question was asked by a group of Jiu Jitsu and kickboxing students. The professor replied. "If the person you are engaged with on the street is throwing body shots, you picked a fight with the wrong person. That person is a trained fighter and in my 40 years of Karate, Muay Thai, Jui Jitsu and Krav, the trained fighters are not picking fights on the street."
Very good analysis.
I too only train for best case scenario. Aikido once a week, only three bullets in my gun, and running shoes ready!
I came here to say this, look at the new guy in the gym. When is he throwing body shots? When he's told to or after a week or two of training.
I’ve been kicked in the body in two fights. It wasn’t the penultimate strike but I think it’s more common than your self defense coach made out. Not that he’s wrong though.
I guess your teacher never heard of Garouden! then.
I think another thing people forget is that real violence is often SLOPPY AS HELL. People aren't carefully studying their opponent, they're grabbing and flailing almost blindly. Theory goes right out the window.
Alcohol is always present at barfights and makes for sloppy haymakerfests. And the adrenaline dump tires people out FAST. Sloppy, sloppy.
The fact that you were able to have as much success as you were with nothing more than a brief introduction to the style I think shouldn't be overlooked.
To be fair, with the amount of training he has had in the variety of systems he's been exposed to, Seth is a prime example of someone who wouldn't need long to pick up the basics of any new system and make it work.
His success was because, in friendly sparring, when someone bumbles towards you with their elbows out, you kind of just back up because they're being a spaz.
"There's really no way of perfectly doing anything"
- Inspirational words by the illustrious Sensei Seth, 2024
Yes, the biggest asset in self defense is situational awareness and ingenuity in the moment!
with ten days of training or something he probably hardly ever even understood what he is doing there, let alone perfect it.
Wise words
it doesnt mean u should tie ur hands behind ur back nor keep them on ur head like a clown 100% of the time ITSA GIMMICK trying to reinvent the wheel 2 monthsof muay thai > 2 years of keysi
I was dying at how much Seth laughed at that guy in the water
I think a lot of people forget that most properly trained fighters tend not to get into fights
Unless they are Nate Diaz.
trained fighters are also trained on the important fact that the best form of self-defense is avoiding situations where you may need to defend yourself
that's like one of the first things you learn
It depends. In many places fighting gyms are recruiting grounds for gangs and mafia
That's not always the case, a lot of UFC fighters have been on street fights
not sure about that. everyone trains nowadays
My man seth suffers fools glad af
Wut
I suppose mike modified the term fools gold, which is any flashy but ultimately worthless investment
I would also like to know your thoughts on 52 Blocks with Lyte Burly ( I keep mentioning Lyte, because he seems like a legit martial artist, and unfortunately there are some con artists in the style). Love the channel btw! Hope you do more stuff with Wonder Boy!
Did ya watch the videos of Martial Arts Journey with Rokas like I Tried The BEST Self Defense For Multiple Attackers?
The replies to this comment are all from Tide pod eaters.
You should cover Right Response. It's a method of self-defense for social workers and nurses that is legally compliant. I got trained in it when I was a caregiver and had to handle violent clients when I couldn't do any grappling or striking (pushing counted as striking lol) without mounds of paperwork and an investigation. It's such a wild inversion of normal self-defense styles because it's for such a specific situation and there are zero counterattacks. It's almost entirely about deescalation, and if that failed, how to escape and run. There are a few specific holds that you could do, but only in very specific instances where the client poses a threat to themselves or the public. By itself, it's not very practical on the street, but I escaped the job with no lasting injuries, and I'm absolutely glad to have the techniques in my toolbox.
That actually sounds really interesting, also raises questions like, why does the law imply the worker cannot use even a simple push to defend themselves if the client is vulnerable? Are you supposed to just let yourself get beat up if your Right Response techniques don’t work?
@@WBowles195 Incoming essay lol. I'm in Washington State, and the laws are going to be a bit different based on where you are. I've also been out of the field for several years, so things may have changed since I've been out. I was specifically doing home care, which is regulated differently from group homes or state hospitals, where use of force is still highly regulated, but less restricted. I was going into people's homes to provide care, so it makes sense that we can't assault people in their own home, even if they started it.
The vast majority of our clients were people we were allowed to leave in the rare case where they got violent. The average amount of care for them was basically drop-in service to make sure they were doing their Activities of Daily Living (brushing their teeth, eating meals, taking meds, going to work, etc).
However, once you start bringing money into it, you run into administrators accepting well paying clients that are just on the edge of what we were qualified to care for. These were the people I specialized in caring for, and brought about the situations where Right Response was utilized. I was dealing primarily with 24/7 line-of-sight clients, which we couldn't leave. The agency did demand that they put a safe room for employees in the home of the most violent client, and they had a float staff that I could call for theoretic backup if they weren't so unreliable. Other than that, yeah, we just had to deal with getting hit.
On the up side, none of these people were trained or particularly experienced in fighting, just going off pure instinct, which made it much easier to de-escalate. I will say, although Right Response was taught to me as part of caring for people with developmental disabilities, it's also turned me into the Junkie Whisperer. I've been able to talk tweakers out of beefing, I've been able to successfully (no cops!) deal with somebody who was high out of their gourd who tried to break into my house, the list goes on lol.
@@BrokenMonocle i could watch a whole youtube channel about this, also WA state, pacific northwest, here.
@SenseiSeth You said an interesting thing along the lines of ‘I didn’t want to kick my friend off a bridge and so I couldn’t test the self defense techniques fully’ - I think there’s an argument to be made that this is actually a pretty accurate part of a self defense incident!
There is some statistic that says a significant proportion of violence is perpetrated by people you already know - family, friends, acquaintances, etc. It is totally reasonable, in a real self defence situation, to think ‘I can’t sparta kick this man off a waterfall because I don’t want to kill them’, be it due to their relation to you OR because you are worried for moral/ethical/legal/social reasons.
I think adapting to use reasonable force against a specific threat is a highly underrated and very realistic skill that you ARE training by sparring in a controlled way!
Thats true but the issue with sparring also is thst you are teaching yourself to engage. You dont have to engage, you can literally step out of bounce and achieve self defense in a sparring confrontation.
Thats the thing right. In sports the mentality is to win. In self defense you are trying to not lose. In war you are trying to kill someone as quickly and efficiently as possible because there is another guy coming.
@@Bagoth2 Very very true, and definitely something that is worth training as well!
I would also add that in many countries you're legally on the hook if you seriously injure or kill someone, even if you prove it was self defence and the other person was trying to kill you, so that pressure to balance your safety and their safety is still there
What happened at 9:43 is kind of interesting. The other guy was so focused on the body that he forget to defend himself and ate an elbow for it; in a real fight, thrown at full force, that could have been a KO. Tanking a couple of body shots to land and elbow isn't so far fetched of an idea, that type of trade off is interesting to consider.
Still a normal high guard is probably better, but this doesn't look as useless as I honestly thought it would be.
You have a point. I’ve been kicked in fights but even those kicks didn’t end the fight. I was kicked out it’s a front kick, but was able to back up enough that it didn’t take me out. The guy was a wrestler, so he tackled me right after kicking me. 😂
"Tanking a couple of bodyshots". If it's a friendly, light sparring, where noone's really trying to be mean and take you out with a liver shot or take your breath away by striking hard to your solar plexus, then yeah - those couple of bodyshots aren't nothing. In a live setting tho, one solid and well placed body shot can fold you in half and if you keep your hands this high, taking no safety measures in regards to your body... well, you're giving your opponent plenty of time to really aim and unleash that power shot
But if those bodyshots were also committed yoy can argue the elbow wouldn't have come from his sparring partner wearing him down, inflicting pain and damage. This is reaching and holding a double standard, fishing for one move of the bunch to imply weakness in a system itself that Keysi doesn't have while not considering the scenario.
To the people here saying that a serious body shot could've stop the elbow, it wouldn't if you're expecting it, in kyokushin body shots is the largest part of what we do and if you're expect it you can push through or twist your body to reach the adversary, unless you're fighting Mike Tyson, but if you're fighting him you'd have to have a gun from far away to win a fight
@@Riot076 But the chance that anyone will think to do this while attacking you is slim. If someone has a sucker punch, it's to the head. If that doesn't work initially they're going to try it again. I think this part of the system is a calculated risk; body shots are rare while head shots are both common and extremely dangerous. Body shots can hurt but only head shots have a chance to KO, and getting KO'd is extremely dangerous since now you're on the ground, defenseless, and in many cases getting your head kicked in, which could easily cause permanent damage or death. Sure you're risking body shots doing a pensador, but it's the lesser risk.
15:42 "People who train in martial arts and learn how to fight first and...fight under that pressure, I think have the best aptitude of fighting. But I don't think they have a realistic outlook on what all fights look like outside of a cage. Like, there's no perfect way...to solve the problem of being attacked. That's what's hard, and what's scary." This is perhaps the fairest and most nuanced overall description of the dichotomy between combat sports and "self-defense".
Why not just boxing ? Since as he showed most fight are punches to the head, you learn to escape and run away
@@sebozz2046 Boxing absolutely is one of the best style to train in, not only because of the full-contact sparring and athleticism, but also indeed because of the skill of distance management and footwork, assuming the meta/gameplan/strategy of a typical out-fighter. That's why most sport martial arts have adapted boxing into their style, because it is so relevant for fighting. But it is certainly not the only option, and is definitely not the be-all and end-all of combat sports for self-defense: ruclips.net/video/qseeQx1aZuo/видео.htmlsi=bJ7S3JRS0pHVpsg1
@sebozz2046 Sure, boxing absolutely is one of the best styles to train in, not only because of the full-contact sparring and athleticism, but also because of the skill of distance management and footwork, assuming the meta/gameplan/strategy of the typical out-fighter. This is why most combat sports take or try to approach boxing, because it is so relevant to fighting, even if traditionalists don't like to admit it. But it is certainly not the only option, and it is definitely not the be-all and end-all of combat sports for self-defense, no one style is complete.
What style of boxing @@sebozz2046
@@sebozz2046bare knuckle fighting and boxing are radically different sports. The moment you didn't have gloves things like headshots become horrible ideas if you don't want to break your hands. So I personally wouldn't punch people in the head.
I think the key to this system is hyper aggression, we used to use a fairly high guard for real incidents for exactly the reasons you showed but if you alternate between normal guard and the keysi guard for mid range and close range respectively it seems a very useful tool for the toolbox.
This comment is GOLD, I hope Seth, and Justo Diéguez read you sir
@@Lasombrosidad you are most welcome and thank you 👍
Love this!!! 🔥🔥
Love the camaraderie between you two!
So you gonna play with seth the jack reacher street fight scene?
Strange thing is that none of you guys attacked with keysi like in the video I Tried Batman's OFFICIAL Martial Art or I Tried The BEST Self Defense For Multiple Attackers where body blows are issued.
So I've been in more violence than I wish I had as a bouncer and CPO and almost every fight was wild swing, optional second wild swing (these are haymakers that are loosely aimed at the head and telegraphed from about 15' away if drunk). Then there is some optional crappling. Unless they fight someone like me and I teach them grappling and there are handcuffs at the end of the lesson. The average fight was over in 20-40 seconds. This is the early '00s.
Heh. Crappling. Internet point for you.
Like your pfp. 忍
Bujinkan, Genbukan, To-shin-do, or...?
Huge regional differences there in the bouncer job. I know a guy up in Dublin who used to wear Lamellar under his jacket because knives are a bit of a thing up there. Same in my area. Would've loved if people just went for the head during my time, you lucky bastard!
@@maxgehtdnixan4913well not so lucky if it’s in the USA cuz then you have to deal with everyone carrying a gun
Crappling 😂, good one.
Great video.
I was a nightclub door supervisor for ten years, '94-'04. In all of the fights/situations, I personally witnessed and dealt with there was not one body shot thrown. They were all punches to the head and stand up pushing, shoving and grappling. If it went to the floor, which was rare because of quick intervention, the head was still the primary target.
Worked a door also. 100% accurate. Once it goes to ground people then usually break up the fight.
Self Defense is Rock-Paper-Scissors with fisticuffs. The reason there seems to be no perfect answer is that combat is alive. It moves. Every time it moves, the possible answers change. The best preparation or style to use for that is a style that allows you to learn snap judgement on changing your answer to deal with the questions being fired at you. Recommendation: To continue this research, go back to Chapel Hill and ask Hardee about the elements and how they work to give you the right answer for different questions.
The only time I've ever seen the body be a main target vs. the head in a street fight is against an opponent armed with a knife. No one is trying to stick you with a knife in the face. Thankfully, the only time I've had a knife pulled in an attempted street fight, I had distance, and they fled when I pulled my concealed carry. I'd be interested to see Alan demonstrate the system's capabilities against an armed opponent. I feel like it'd be a struggle.
Was going to mention that, figured it’s a whole different rabbit whole to go down
defense against knives is a whole different ball game entirely (and unfortunately one i found myself in as a pre-teen - got out through de-escalation and escape rather than fighting, thankfully)
@dead-claudia Yeah, it's really rare for even some of the most experienced martial artists to be able to disarm an opponent with a knife without getting at least injured in the process. Even firearms are at a disadvantage at close range. When I pulled mine, it was in defense of a third person. He was a big guy, but multiple guys were hitting him (he could handle that). I pulled my concealed carry and announced it loudly when I saw another guy running towards his back with a knife out. Thankfully, he ran and I didn't have to use it. I still got arrested and charged with 3x felony assault with a deadly weapon. However, all charges were dropped before court for "no probable cause for arrest," as it was ruled that I acted within the law to save him.
We have body blows pretty frequently in my area. Shins, knees, feet and jabs below the ribs are the norm here. Face is pretty rare. If you do go face, it's usually elbow or headbutt during a grapple-fest.
@@maxgehtdnixan4913 Sounds like martial artists getting into fights, not average street brawls.
I liked the last video. I'm not saying everything you learned would be useful in a self-defense scenario, but that's true of ANY system or martial art that you can train. That's why it's so important to diversify your training and obtain skills and techniques from as many disciplines as possible. And that's why I love this channel! It's so entertaining, but there's a lot to be learned by watching and deciding to look into stuff that you might otherwise dismiss without ever giving it a chance. I could never have imagined that I'd get into Sumo so much, but I have really enjoyed learning more about that discipline because of Sensei Seth.
Hello Seth, I recently started Karate and found this channel, I’m now committed to watching you try new martial arts and learn new things, great job!
1:50
Write Clip 1 into the Cell A1
Select the cell A1
bottom right corner of the cell should be a thicker point
Click and drag it down to cell A25 and let go
You've now saved time
Like these street fights show anything anyways. Untrained people don't automatically protect their head so why would anyone (even untrained people) go for body shots when there's an unprotected head right in front of them...
We all want to see the Keysi coach spar!
he cant he is too powerful to spar he will kill some1
Lol good luck with getting any of them to spar
the previous videos comment section was typical of the "ma community" is the inability to use logic and reasoning.
- if a move works/doesnt work DEPENDS ON CONTEXT.
saying "X doesn't work" is the result of reifying a move separate to it's use.
this is why I love Seth. glad we have the same conclusion when it comes to self defence.
I red it "same concussion"
@@sebozz2046 lol
Not only are there only very few bodyshots in real situations, but when they occur they near never end the fight. Only notable exception seem to be front kicks.
The overwhelming majority of real fights end by hits to the head, standing up or on the ground.
Since self defense training is always on a time budget, it is way more efficient to train for what actually happens a lot and solve as many of those situations with the smallest possible set of techniques.
The OODA Loop is real and the freeze lives between Orient and Decide. If you know a 1000 techniques and 23 guards you are near guaranteed to end up overwhelmed or KOed while trying to decide. If you know one guard that actually works and prevents you from losing in the first 10 seconds your over all chances go way up. If you can take a minute of assault without too much damage near every attacker(s) will be winded. To say it in the infamous words of Joe R. "Oooow, you tired now?...."
I'm not saying "take it for a minute" (actually strike him as early as you can), but knowing you can, will allow you to think and act.
There is also a vast difference between a lot of bar brawl and an ambush type of mugging attack on the street.
that computer "head" got shut down
I've seen similar stuff to the keysi guard in lethwei matches, and also the keysi guard sometimes trasintions into a boxing cross guard Joe Frazier, Evander Hollyfield, George Foreman, and Roberto Duran they all block punches with elbows and forearms also Dustin Porier does it too, so yeah the concept of the keysi guard works, i don't think that everytbing in the sistem works, but yeah the guard it self worrks if presure tested, also Ramon Dekcers blocked punches with his elbows too
Keysi is a good system--reminds me of old school combatives training
_Trying Muay Thai, Sumo, Boxing, Kickboxing:_ "Here's a recorded and detailed breakdown of my journey over these months/years, I really think trying this other style beyond my own has made me a stronger fighter all around."
_Tries Keysi and similar fringe arts with no competition or sparring:_ "There really is no perfect way to do anything."
That was a perfect analysis. Fighting for sport and fighting for real are definitely two different things. Learning martial arts to fight from my perspective absolutely will help in self defense, and that is where I think learning techniques or arts designed for self defense will add to your overall style.
That conclusion about testing self defense without actually hurting others was spot on; you won’t really know if it’ll work unless you actually find yourself in that situation.
Keep up the excellent work, Seth. I always learn something awesome every time.
It’s cool that the gym you go to lets you test different things like this
I've been in two fights as an adult. One was when I was 18, had an abusive step dad and hit my limit. The other was a (now ex) friend who decided to try to murder me (long story, of course). Tackled me out of the blue in my garage as we were talking, with a knife in his hand. Didn't see it coming. Luckily my left hand snagged his right shirt sleeve as we went down, so the knife was contained momentarily. I was in a bad position on my back, but had enough room to throw a (rather weak) elbow at his chin. That startled him and he reared back a little - which gave me room for another elbow with some zing on it. He was rocked, I pushed him off, rolled in to a half guard and buried an elbow in to his jaw that caused his head to impact concrete. He lost two teeth, a knife, and consciousness. The entire lethal force fight lasted less than 3 seconds and involved 3 elbow strikes.
Moral of the story, elbows are absolutely vicious in a fight even from a bad position, if you put them on target. Don't discount something because it looks stupid, because every fight looks stupid and chaotic and there's nothing ever resembling a plan, just go-go-go until the threat is no longer a threat.
Sensei Seth: Learns a system that creates a situation where you get in close to deal damage.
Kyokushin Guys: "We finna eat well tonight."
will kaysi work with kyokushin front kick? 🙂
@@BoxerKyokushin maybe
Keysi basically keeps the arms close then turns with fullbody into the attacks and if they attack themselves use hammerfist similiar to karate
"Finna"?
Great video! I love you took the time to reflect back on it and put it under some pressuring testing.
I agree with the methodology. Most fights have wild head punches, haymakers and some sort of tethering, like grabbing the shirt. If you drive forward and keep your aggression and momentum, you put the attacker into the defense role and remove their offense role. That's the way I teach it anyway. There is no pugilistic exchange in defense like you see in sport.
Also, never underestimate elbow blocking and strikes, making your target areas small and using dynamic shielding vs static shielding.
Love ya Seth! Even when it's fighting, you keep this stuff wholesome!
More great wisdom from Sensei Seth. Love this channel. Awesome work.
Self defense: to defend against spontaneous aggression.
Fighting style: the manor in which power is delivered from the body to opponents in order to minimize their ability to be aggressive to you and end the fight in your victory.
Martial art: a system of movements and training methods along with a philosophy.
Three different things, three different aims.
Picking apart a self defense system from the perspective of a fighter, picking apart a fighting style as being weak for self defense, picking apart a martial art as being poor for fighting or weak for self defense or comprised of poor training methods or philosophy etc.
Apples to oranges man.
Awesome video. Really loved the commentary at the end. Thanks Sensei Seth.
Really enjoyed this video! I’m going to rewatch the last video too!
The timing of this video is splendid! I'm doing an essay on Jiu-Jitsu and self-defense for college and what you explained at the end is my thoughts exactly--All of the reasons you listed. This was a great video to watch!!
That was a great video. Thank you
I respect what you do. You come at your topics with a very open mind. There need to me more of that in the world.
One of my favourite youtubers atm, your videos are so interesting and you're a natural
I love this take! Appreciate the call to nuance and the reality check of what works in simulation or sport vs. the chaos of an actual attack
As others have said, what can work depends so very much on context. And as you have said, Seth, there is no perfect solution, otherwise we would not have so many different styles of martial arts.
In any case, thank you for trying so many different martial arts and for always being very honest about them. It's always fun to watch your videos.
*I've trained several styles of martial arts for 15 years. I started with kickboxing, JKD, then an MMA gym (boxing, MT, BJJ, etc.), boxing with a standalone boxing trainer, MT with a standalone kickboxing trainer (a mixture of MT and Dutch) and Krav Maga. I also become a student of the game - I watched a lot of videos and breakdowns and would stress test everything I wanted to incorporate to see if it would work. I typed this long explanation to say, I recommend having a solid foundation in the basics of boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, and grappling/clinching, etc. before playing with Krav Maga, Keysi, etc. You need to understand your own body mechanics extremely well and how to adapt styles/moves based on your body mechanics.*
EXACTLY!!! 5 stars! ✨✨✨✨✨
we need more people with multiple solid foundations under their belt chiming in. we have too many CTE customers chiming in
This is nice to see you following up on this style
Sensei Seth, I'm glad you (and Kevin) have covered this system. I've been in martial art for 33 years now, and this is all in kata. I think people focus on how it's all different and not on what's the same. I've been around and studied a lot and with many people and what I've learned is we are all doing the same thing. Love the group of you guys and your channels (Jesse, Mike, and Kevin). Please keep doing what you are doing and thank you for all that you do.
Thanks Seth! I'm a first degree in Tang Soo Do, but I'm also 58 years old and am slow. You have shown me a defense technique that I can add to my bag. Great job!
Good job bro... you've been killing it lately!
Dude this was one of the best ones I think you've ever made hell yeah
Much love sensei Seth keep up the great work❤
This is one of the best videos I have seen about "testing" self defense in sparring. Like Seth said, you can't really test in sparring, because sparring isn't fighting. Even if it was a competition, it's a competition not a fight. I think defining what a "fight" is is 90% of the argument.
Side note, I use the pensodor all the time in sparring to great effect, and I don't find it exhausting. I actually sometimes switch to it when I start getting tired.
I can see why.. I felt similarly while watching it, but I eventually ran back what I thought as I watched.. It is certainly an interesting approach to realistic fighting. It won me over with the elbows.
This was very interesting, thank you!
Seth great video again
An excellent, unbiased analysis. Bravo.
Very interesting test. Love to see your investigative style for techniques. Analyzing real life street fight footage was a great idea
I always love your content. I trained in KFM for a couple of years in the early days of it going wide spread. One thing I would love to see is the use of elevation. To block body shots, you just have to drop into a lower stance and charge. Training the lower legs for lower stances is also the way you can prevent tackles as its like you said a very prominent thing that happens in a street fight. In the way I was taught, you also incorporate stomps to the legs and just being a bull dozer or wrecking ball. Its destructive for sure and totally agree with the difficulties. I hope you keep the training up in this method as there is a lot still left to learn and I hope there you can show it off the next time your in a bus with multiple attackers.
Stellar video Sensei Seth! Practical and analytical approach, and you made the guard work. With some practice, this guard can easily be incorporated as a guard switch just as one would go from orthodox to southpaw. And it works beautifully for the tomahawk elbow and grabs for sweeps like the sasae you did around the 10 minute mark. Love it. Keep doing what you do.
It looks like Keysi could be advantageous and useful in some situations; tight conditions, like being attacked in your car or cornered, multiple close assailants. But probably not at useful in other situations, especially regarding more open, long reach scenarios where more traditional kicks and punches would be far more effective.
Still, it definitely has some impressive applications if used properly in the right conditions. If one could incorporate those techniques at the right time and situation - they could turn the tide of the fight, or at the very least give one an edge.
Keysi would probably be best used blended with other styles and techniques as the need arises.
I enjoy that you included so many comments from your sparring mates
I can't stress how much I love every video you make
Watch Gabriel Vargas video about the super high guard that Raymond Dekkers (a kickboxer) used. Dekkers delt with body shots by stepping back or " hollowing his torso".
This style of fighting isn’t for kickboxing though. If you’re in a kickboxing match, use kickboxing
Dude that looked so sweaty :D Good effort Seth :D
Respect for trying to pressure test what he learned. The extent a reasonable man could make it work ? It is what it is.
Great thoughts Seth. As a multi-discipline practicioner over about 40 years of my life I've pretty much came to the same concept. I've taken pieces of what I have learned from the US Army infantry hand-to-hand and 4 different styles I've practiced and I like pieces of all of them. When I have been attacked in real life, I have been able to react in such a way as to not be damaged, but the other combatants were, so that's a plus. Next time as I get into my mid 50's that may not be the case. I'm not as sharp or quick as I was, but I have a base and that's all you can do is give yourself an edge and keep an eye open at all times. ;)
Perfect explanation great job and this is the true not a way are multiple ways and you have to use the best of you and what you got in that specific moment to try your best of you .
I appreciate you as a traditional martial artist who learns and applies from combat sports at the highest level (MT BJJ etc.) I had a long TKD background and transitioned to BJJ and some MT, and while a lot of my traditional background had to be thrown out or adjusted, there are still lots of benefits from those systems.
Your comments made me think of something Luke Thomas talks about a lot-the myth of the “real fight.” There’s no such thing as a “pure, real fight,” only different kinds of fights with different parameters. With that, no one system or philosophy is going to work wholesale-I mean that’s literally what MMA proved. But in response to how much BS has been peddled by McDojos, there is a tendency to thumb noses at anything that falls outside the best practices that apply in a wide range of scenarios but not all.
All that to say, I dig what you do.
This is awesome
I think that one of the most valuable aspects of your previous video was explanation of KEYSI origin - surviving beating by multiple attackers. And in that context I can (for the first time 😉) see the sense of their approach - its kind of about cutting your loses and protecting what is most important etc.. So its kind of obvious to it be less optimal for other purposes.
Using the Batman keysi bullshido you cannot even fight properly against 1 guy, but you are gonna fight against 5 guys. It sounds stupid.
@@spooner7151 I use word surviving with full premeditation 😛. Like getting less beat up, than otherwise, not winning 😛. Because as far as winning go, you absolutely right - if it got to the point when multiple people beating you, and you need that strategy, counting on win is stupid.
Either way, my comment was not about how manageable is fighting multiple oponent, but about how is see sense of how they techniques are constructed in context of their origin.
@kamilri nowhere near as effective as running. Also, the idea of putting your back against a wall while being attacked by multiple people is a terrible idea. You're doing them a favor at that point.
@@stuffilike6755 Maybe I should elaborate: The founder of KEYSI was repeatable beaten by multiple people in young age. That left him mentally scared to the point where his approach exclude anything that would make him more vulnerable to such beatings, even in situations that not include being beaten by multiple people. That is called inflexibility, so more efficient solution are given. It also not create good general purpose fighting system. At the same time getting that information change my opinion of KEYSI from "not make much sense", to "based in experience, but applied where it shouldn't", which is better opinion that it was 😛.
Good vid Seth.
Great video and message!
The man in the water 2:40 kill me.... thanks for this moment!
I think it's a situationally useful thing to be able to dip into, but using other guards and strategies where appropriate. Basically, the Kesi Fighting Method can be a good tool on the belt, especially for aggressive, close-range, short encounters, but should probably not be the only tool on one's belt.
M.A student/instructor 43y, also ex-LE. There's no single solution that fits all, but here is my general solution: stack advantages every chance you get, the criminals certainly will. Avoid "equal force". Don't do knife vs knife, do pepperspray and axehandle vs knife. Never fight unarmed, pick up a stick or rock at least, you're a tool-user so use tools. A chair is four sticks and a shield; practice it there's things to learn there, and chairs are everywhere. Never leave the house without OC and a metal flashlight minimum. If OC is illegal, move elsewhere bc your gov hates you. This is about real SD not sporting competition: CHEAT HARD. Unarmed skills are good to have but there's a reason soldiers and cops use weapons by preference (as do criminals). Practice "cheating" at least as hard/often as you practice kick/jab/cross.
This is maybe your best video!
This footage actually showed how we are comparing a self-defense/street fight to sparring in a martial art. The guys in the video totally were just sparing and not going nuts trying to beat him up, but nearly win the exchange.
This gave me more respect for Keysi Fighting Method in that rationale.
street fights involve weapons an/or overwhelming aggression, that's the missing aspect here. Also the level of aggression is at odds with what is demanded from Keysi. Keeping your head protected and crashing with overwhelming aggression against an armed assailant is the most effective option. The only way to survive a street fight is with violence that is faster and more aggressive than your attacker. Definitely not standing squared up and gently trading blows with no intention of causing injury or death.
Didn't see the first video but I would have thought the same. Interesting to see the data as well as see it in practice!
Great video, it worked better than i thought... I would still never use it but it surprised me...
Way too much concentration on striking in fights because clips concentrate on quick fights which involve mostly punches to the head because of the duration. But the longer the fight goes the more grappling becomes involved. This is where pure strikers are at a deep disadvantage.
Very true about body shots being rare in fights of any duration, and then the vast majority will be kicks, which can be devastating.
Having a plan in a fight is always advantageous. This style offers a clear strategy: "Attack aggressively from the start with elbows." This could be effective, especially against an unprepared opponent. However, the stance has some drawbacks (other then body shots). The forward-leaning head position that the coach showed could make the fighter an easy target for hooks or other strikes, especially when infighting and your opponent is just throwing out punches. It's worth noting that Seth didn't adopt the same head-forward stance as the coach in the previous video. So I don't know if its a style thing or a him thing.
"But how do you test a bare knuckle fight?"🤔
I certainly won't say it's a good way, but the answer's kind of in the question, buddy.
profile picture checks out
@@madwarrior3771 Ha! I always forget about my pfp until someone mentions it. I may have to change it. I'd rather be iron than ironic.
Great vid, and great effort in trying something different. OI noticed as soon as they tried to strike the body, they were super open for the elbows to the head and or a limb strike from the elbow. It's a nice deterrent, because they have no choice but to come into elbow range to hit the body. I would suggest using the core body movement that you learned in capoeira jinga to move your upper body and elbows, instead of your shoulder
Hmm Sumo Seth incooperating the ram Nightmare combo to face of.
I knew exactly where he was going when he pulled up the fight videos, I honestly love watching them and noticed most non trained people ALWAYS headhunt, they don't really know about building up damage or hitting weak spots, and ofcourse they will grab you as well.
was he watching the videos on WPD(watch people ***)?
@@mexhitbajramoski3793 I'm not sure, I"m meant I knew what his point was going to be when I made the statement "where he is going."
Alexander Baker is a master martial arts and coach. If he tells you it works, it works. Thanks for the video, Coach Seth.
I think this guard is great, buet as always, I think the best course of action is to use different guards for different distances and different situations.
unfortunately, I have been in a LOT of self-defense street-fights, I've been attacked by individuals, Armed individuals, and Groups (mostly groups). I grew up in a rough town, at a rough time, in the poor (RE: Rough), part of town and always went to the rough schools too. I'm ALSO a long-time martial artist, and military veteran.
there are 3 scenarios in which I've been attacked toward the body, rather than the face and head: 1) the attacker had a knife, which is much more effective against soft bits than hard things like skulls
2) 1-2 attackers were already focusing on my head, so the 3-4th attackers focused on what they could reach/access: my body
3) the attacker thought to open with a kick 'down low', to be followed by a right haymaker, too low to be hand-blocked easily anyway from any high guard
right hand haymakers are the first attack 4/5 times and the rest are straight rights: and ALL are too the head. with a knife they go to the gut.
that said, I'm not a fan of keysi and boxing blocks in self defense b/c they obstruct one's view of the opponent and the environment; you want to be able to tell if they have allies, and see traffic (they may try to push you into traffic). and if you can defend all their punches, they may, at that point, pull a pocket knife, which you could miss if you're totally shelled up like that.
it's not useless, but it doesn't have nearly the utility that they claim.
it's been my experience that, when attacked by a group, whenever you shell up fully, and stop all their attacks to the head and they know their punches aren't working, they try to solve the problem, so they will start trying to hit you in the back of the head and the softer parts, the gut (yes the liver, even if they're not targeting it specifically) and kidneys (lower back).
instead, pick the smallest guy, or the least eager one, give them a full power front push kick to the pelvis to create a hole in their formation, and get out of there, b/c even a perfect keysi/trad. boxing/philly shell will do you little to no good against just 2 or 3 foes that're PO'd and out for blood.
I think people tend to forgett how bad the average person is at fighting. What makes these situations dangerous (even for martial artists) are other factors, often unknowns (weapons, multiple people, drugs, being restricted by clothing or not able to transfer the power of punches through a thick winter jacket). When I got dragged into a fight and punshed by multiple people I realized two things. 1. You can throw most technics out of the window. There is no way to deliver effective strikes whilst other people push and punch you. 2. People suck at fighting. I did block and soften many punches, but got hit by even more. But with all the adrenalin non of them hurt. Even afterwards I had a tiny bit of bruising in my face but nothing major. I ligit had normal sparing rounds that - whilst far more controlled and therefor less scarry - ended up hurting way more!
That being said, I don't think the system would have helped me in this specific situation. As soon as I noticed my powerlessness I managed to slipp away quite quickly, probably wouldn't have worked with an agressive approach.
I agree with your assessments completely.
I first started training in Karate, BJJ, and Muay Thai back in 2001. Over the years I have trained or dabbled in nearly a dozen different martial arts without necessarily becoming an expert in any one of them. Among the arts I've studied is Keysi Fighting Method for about 6 weeks. I was impressed by the emphasis on keeping the head in motion and protecting the head even at the expense of leaving other body parts exposed, because as you noted, in real life fights the head is the primary target. Very rarely will you have a street fight where body shots are thrown (as you demonstrated).
The following is based on my own personal experience and may not reflect the wider audience. I worked as a Reserve Police Officer for three years in the Midwest and was also a tactical security team supervisor on the Las Vegas strip. I won't be the guy that claims to have been in dozens of street fights, but I have on occasion been in real altercations. A couple of years ago I started to think critically about those actual real life encounters I've had and realized that not once have I ever punched, kicked, or choked anyone. Not that there's *never* a time to punch, kick, or choke anyone, I just never have.
What I have used in real life encounters is wrestling, judo, and hapkido. I've had to wrestle people, I've thrown people to the ground using judo style hip throws, and I've also put people on the ground using hapkido style arm bars. Additionally, I've used wrist and pain control techniques to get people into handcuffs. To do that, I've never had to strike or choke anyone.
I thought about why this is and realized it has to do with rule set and win condition. Every situation has a rule set and a win condition. In UFC/MMA the win condition is usually KO/Submission. Therefore strike based arts like Muay Thai, and grappling arts like BJJ are the most effective and most winners will have those backgrounds.
In a "street fight" where the win condition for both sides is "win the fight" those arts will again be the most dominant (until weapons come into play, then those are more effective). In a self defense situation now we run into the case where each party has a separate and distinct win condition. The bad guy has the win condition of taking your stuff or hurting you and getting away without being caught. The victim has the win condition of keeping their stuff and not being injured. In this situation, each party will have different moves which are most dominant to accomplish their win condition. For the victim, the most effective will be firearms training. Barring that, if someone attacks you a martial art like KFM supplemented with BJJ is perfectly reasonable.
In a LEO/Security situation, the bad guy has the win condition of getting away. The LEO/Security has the win condition of putting the suspect in handcuffs with as minimal injury as possible. In this scenario, strike based arts like Muay Thai or MMA are NOT good first options. Neither are good for getting the bad guy in handcuffs, and quite frankly, neither is BJJ. For me, I've found wrestling and hapkido to be the most effective at accomplishing that win condition.
Great video
Thanks for the video.
I'm sorry to be slow getting to this one. I was dealing with real life. I enjoyed the first video on Keysi, and I enjoyed this follow-up video. I'm going to make a comment on the "the issue with self-defense," and I'm afraid that I'm almost going to repeat a comment that I made to another creator just a few hours ago.
My comment is that for most of us, self-defense is not about winning a round. For most of us, self-defense is about making the attacker stop. My health has failed, so I'm in a very bad place if I must ever act in self-defense. However, if I am in that situation and somehow manage to accomplish anything at all, I've "won" if I'm able to take a few steps backwards and the attacker doesn't follow me. If he lets me step backwards a few steps, and then a few more steps, and then a few more steps until I can back out of the situation entirely, I've "won" in the sense that I've survived. If we exchange for twenty seconds and he lands what the judges would call five "significant strikes" while I land only one, I've lost on points. However, if my one "significant strike" persuades him that he'd rather not continue trying to hurt me, I've "won."
We'd all love to see these situations end with the attacker lying on the ground as we stand over him in triumph. That's great, but that's not unlikely for an average guy like me. That's even less likely for someone with my health issues. What I need is to survive long enough to make him decide not to injure me permanently.
The attacker might put me on the ground with a liver punch or solar plexus punch and do as much damage to me as he would have done if he'd hit my head and given me a concussion. On the other hand, maybe I move just enough to take those shots on the ribs and put an elbow into his jaw. If that dazes him enough that he lets me escape, then I've survived. I'll have horribly bruised ribs for a week, but I'll survive. I couldn't survive a two-minute, three-minute, or five-minute round in organized fighting that way, but in a self-defense scenario, I've gone home without permanent damage.
I think you made that point in this video, but I think that the point needs to be stated more directly. The point of this style of self-defense is not about winning in the traditional sense as much as it is about damaging an attacker enough to scare him into stopping the attack.
I've never studied Keysi. I'm probably not strong enough to study Keysi any longer. However, my pre-sickness self would like to have tried Keysi. Maybe it wouldn't work for me. Maybe it would. To the extent that it would work, I just need Keysi to let me escape the situation.
Someone with your background is going to be much better able to absorb a few body shots. As Mr. Baker said, the system does have ways of blocking some body shots. Those techniques might not help much against a trained fighter in a sport setting. When a street thug tries to throw a body shot that looks easy and ends up being blocked with one elbow and hit in the jaw with the other, I think that frustration is going to be more likely to make the street thug want to pick on someone else.
I'll try to look for more follow-up videos as I have time. I have enjoyed both of these. I wish I were in a position to train this system.
Ok, so as to address the coach's clarification to the guard problem - imho it's still very problematic. 'Cause now he's basically telling you that you either protect your head or your body, so one of those targets is always unprotected. There was no idea of headmovement or any proactive defence introduced as an alternative to not having your guard in place. So idk to me this specific explanation makes the whole thing seem even less legit. Also "Just ram-attack them" kinda gives me "I see red and the bodies drop" vibes. It seems super easy to get angled doing that especially with how the guard limits your vision. It actually sounds like some overtheorised version of kids "bullcharging" headfirst, eyes closed, during some kindergarden fight. As for all the analysis of frequency of bodyshots being thrown in the streetfight footage - you NEVER know who you're gonna encounter in such altrecation. If I were to assume that absolutely any attacker I may run into in a streetfight has half a brain and is only gonna throw sloppy overhands before stumbling over his own feet, then why bother preparing specifically for that in the first place? I can already handle myself in such situation by learning a proper combat sport. And IF I happen to run into someone who's actually got some idea of what he's doing and knows what body shots are, then I guess I'm fucked with this self defence system, meanwhile with a combat sport background, I might have an actual chance, depending on the skill difference.
Also - any system of fighting multiple attackers without outmanoeuvering them somehow and putting on one line so that they can't attack simultaneousely (which is still super difficult to pull off, but at least we have evidence of it actually working) IS again an utter bullshit. On the previous video there was a segment of the Keysi guys padding Seth on his forearms, while he was backed into the wall and trying to push forward through them in that weird stance. The reality is - if you don't just hit full sprint in an instant and break through them to ideally run away or if you can't do that - outmanoeuver them - you're done. If you stay by the wall they will eventually get you, if you just march forward they'll get you even faster as even if they don't grapple you and even if you manage to pull off an impenetrable helmet guard, so you don't get hit on the back of your head, all it takes is one kidney shot from the guy behind your back and trust me - you're done.
Feel free to push the argument further
They teach a very similar fighting system in UK law enforcement. Your hands flinch up when spontaneous violence happens. It's a good place to learn to fight from, even if you adapt in the seconds after. Great video.
I work as a bouncer and grew up getting into fights. I have found the best option for a sucker punch or something unexpected is to cover the head in a similar way. I think sparring is great for pressure testing many things, but it's not how fights usually go down. Every once in a while someone will square off as if sparring. But it's usually just talking, maybe getting heated then a flurry of blows. There's no bowing and setting your stance, it's just attack. So being able to just throw up a defense can be really effective.
we were all so focused on figuring out how to block strikes, that none of us thought to practice our scuba 2:17 lol
Keep up the great content. I would love to see you do Hema, Buhurt, and Bartitsu.
Edit: never mind on the buhurt. I can’t believe I missed that video.
Havent't watched the video yet, but here are my 2 cents: In theory yes, one should defend his/her body against shots the same way as his/her own head, BUT the reality is that unless you're in a ring playing professional sports, all real-life attacks will mostly focus on knocking your teeth out. It's instinctive, very few people will aim for the torso, most will sway for the face. Therefore, concentrating 90% of your defense in that area isn't that stupid, despite how it may look.
EDIT: After watching it, you pretty much confirmed my statement above, thank you!
Haven’t watched yet, but I love the concept of Combat Sports techniques VS Self-Defense techniques!
I love the elbows up position. I learned something very similar in the seventh grade just from a friend of mine, so elbows up with the upper arm parallel to the ground and then my difference would be the upper arm would be 45 to 90° bent, up in the air, and loose with my hands also flopping loosely, this was excellent for what we called slap boxing, and it worked with bully opponents in school who quickly decided they did not want the slapping flurry against their face so they did not want to pick on me anymore. We never thought of hitting with the elbow in the seventh grade. I learned that later in the past 10 years, many decades later! The elbow is perhaps the hardest bone that you can hit somebody with. Self-defense author, Rory Miller teaches his in fighting style to use lots of elbows when you're almost chest to chest with somebody. In the ninth grade I had been doing weightlifting And situps in my bedroom. I did maybe less than 100 sit ups daily but I did it for over a year or two. One day a bully school athlete, who was a wrestler, officially for the school, came up and sucker punched me with a liver punch to the belly, But without any training, my muscles just reflexively flexed hard, and I guess this wrestler did not know how to throw a straight punch correctly, he suddenly winced with great pain that he had nearly sprained his own wrist while trying to inflict great pain upon me with a sucker punch to the liver. he immediately apologized as if we were suddenly friends, in his own way, by grasping his wrist and with his head down, nodding and coming in for the boxer hug. As I walked away, I just bluffed him, with my raised eyebrow and a head nod, like as if to say, I hope you had enough, or you can get hurt some more. This was a total bluff, but it worked and he nodded his head as I walked away as the study hall bell rang for us to go to class. Later, I realized this moment made me much more popular at school, because word got around, This guy was going to sucker punch me and I was supposed to end up on the floor crying but instead he's the one who nearly cried on the floor. For years after that, I was always puzzled why people thought and talked like I was about to beat them up. I had very little training in fighting, I just worked out with my weights and did situps. My situps were customized by me, one straight sit up, then one sit up with the left shoulder to the right knee, then one set up with the right shoulder to the left knee, then repeat. So this gave me wider muscle development around my belly, I think.