To me this shows the difference between a killer who is playing to win, and a killer playing for fun hoping to win. They both did similar challenge but the goals were quite different so it's not even really comparable. I still had fun watching both though lol
I personally think that tru3 just wasn't taking it seriously. you can tell he wasn't having fun, nor was he winning much at all. ultimately a pointless experiment he took part in, otz did really well though and I wish more people would do this experiment.
@@Kingdomall i hope they dont because the way otz plays is really unfun to go against and really unfun to play (i love otz, and hate tru3) but like i hope more people play liek tru3 the games meant for fun
@@DeputyFish late reply but oh well lol otz' point was that any and all killers can 4k under most circumstances if you know how to play correctly. tru3 should have never done the experiment, his was completely and totally pointless. maybe he did it for fun, yeah? but he also went in with the same expectations that he left with because he didn't try hard enough. did you watch any of tru3's montage? in his match as myers, he chased a survivor around the logs in macmillan for about 30 seconds before stalking at all. he royally threw that match with how he was playing, but I feel like he expected something more? anyway it's not a big deal, and it's not like I want killers to try ultra hard like otz did for this challenge. it'd just be interesting to see other people's perspective.
@@Kingdomall youtube comments are forever and the reason that truly neither of there experiments actually work is because otz is a 9000 hour monster who's been playing the game for like 4-5 years so saying that playing this way any killer can win is like saying anybody can play football professionally like yeah they can try this is why the new patch is coming though i suppose to make easier on newer players and non godlike beings
@@DeputyFish otz may have godly amounts of hours but it is entirely possible to get good at your main and 4k often if not always. depends on your game sense, skill and patience.
Otz was 100% focused on his experiment while i believe Tru was subconciously thinking of this challange as just another dumb challange thing so wether conciously or subconciously, he relaxed more and more which made him play way more casual, atleast from what was seeing
This was my take on the whole challenge: It proves next to nothing about balance. What it proves is Otz is very determined and very skilled at killer. Some are claiming that Otz has proven the game is balanced, but that's like saying the NFL is balanced because the Browns can beat a highschool team. It's not to say Otz only plays bad survivors, not at all. It's to say that Otz plays teams with SIGNIFICANTLY less hours than him. To get an idea of balance you need both sides to be on at least a similar playing field. Similar hours, and a similar objective. You can't really control for the other teams not taking it seriously. Some will meme, some will DC, some might be interrupted by real life things. We have no idea what these survivors were thinking in any games. The only thing these challenges could potentially prove is the opposite of what they set out to prove. We expect Otz to win, because Otz is Mike Tyson. Otz with perks is Tyson in his prime. Otz without perks is like Tyson today. Tyson today is still going to slap you silly. A much more effective test would to get a bunch of games between Otz and Ayrun, JRM, Zubat, and Jae or something like that. See who comes out on top in a "best of 50 matches." But pairing up Otz against sub 2k hour survivors is a predictable outcome. Even without perks. The dude has over 8k hours in the game. That's the amount of hours you spend completing your masters LOL. And against who? Some survs who decided to chill out and play some DBD that afternoon while cracking some jokes over discord? None the wiser their gameplay would be a determining factor in "game balance" for thousands of players on reddit and youtube? LOL cmon. But I'm glad someone actually decided to analyze these games. Your video is well done. I agree Otz tried way harder than True, and True's result doesn't reflect his skill. He could have done a lot better but he seemed burnt out halfway through. A lot of people roasted him for his performance afterward, and you know what? Fair enough. If you're not even going to try, but claim you are trying, then yeah people are going to roast you. It's a tough challenge. I couldn't do it myself. Or maybe I could since half my killers are low baby mmr lmao, but again... the issue of control groups is a big factor in these tests.
i don't think control groups would mean anything in otz's experiment. he was trying to show that survivor isn't just super easy and that the killer can't do anything. hes not saying that if he went up against a team with the same hours as him that he could do the same thing. he saying that even with major disadvantages he can still get an average kill count of 3 kills which in tern should mean an average player can get the same or close to the same with good perks and mediocre play. if he was to do the same thing verses teams with 8k hours obviously he would get destroyed but that wasn't the point of the experiment. its just to show that with the current dbd matchmaking anybody can still succeed with decent kill ratio if they play scummy. for any normal player they will have the same spread of semi decent players to bad players in their game but instead they will have good perks where otz had none, not to mention add ons, and they won't be sitting still for 30 seconds either. the main thing i see from the experiment is that if you are willing to be scummy you can get more kills. idk if it proves that the game is balanced but that people don't like playing certain ways to win even if it is the most effective way. I always call it meta because no one wants to do it and everyone always looks for a way to play without being scummy then complains even though they arn't playing the most effective way.
@@puppetmaster5166 You can't show that survivor is super easy or hard "on average" by taking an extreme example like Otz and pairing him up against the average player. That is exactly why you need control groups. You cannot prove that kind of "balance" by doing that. It would be more significant if Otz was losing games. Him winning isn't really all that surprising when he's paired up against chill survs who are being altruistic and not really trying to "win."
@@puppetmaster5166 Like okay here's some common ground to think about. Otz was playing scummy. But most of his matches? Most of his matches the survivors died being altruistic. Otz would have lost a LOT more games had the survs been as scummy as he was. I think that's important to point out. The survs weren't trying to win on the same level that Otz was sweating. This is why I think control groups are necessary. You need both sides of the experiment to be fighting for the same goal, at the very least. That'd be like telling one team "okay whoever scores the most field goals wins the game." and telling the other team "okay whoever scores the most touchdowns wins the game." It'd be madness.
@@renaldoawesomesauce1654 The thing i think your suggesting is can killers get 3 kills on average if everyone is trying their hardest in the game. What im suggesting is that most of the time your against an unorganized team with no communication and below average teamwork. SWF is a whole different story compared to just average survivors. any SWF team will make your average killer have a hard game but that doesnt mean killers are underpowered or that survivors are overpowered, IMO it just means communication and teamwork is overpowered. Control groups wouldn't prove anything for average player it would just show what comp dbd already shows, that SWF is extremely strong when played right. if you go into any normal game when someone is facecamping and your playing survivor what does your team do? everyone goes to see whats happening, then they try to see if they can save I.E. waste a lot of time, then decide they will go do gens. If you put a SWF in that position they communicate immediately that they are getting camped and everyone rushes gens and then before tier 2 on hook they attempt a hook trade with one person and if they think they cant get it they return to doing gens until he is about to die then go for a hook trade with BT on that one person and all tank 1 hit individually while after they tank a hit rush to a gen and finish it. these are just a few individual things that SWF are better at.
Great video! I’d have to say considering true’s usual play style he did pretty well on this challenge. Otz just has a ridiculous number of hours and has basically done meme builds on every killer so this challenge wasn’t as hard for him compared to most killers who use good addons and perks. Maybe do a customs experiment with no perks on either side? Then some strong perks on both sides, then full meta on both sides with both sides having equal hours.
The funny thing to me about people saying Otz was playing against bad survivors is that MMR is soft capped at this game. Tru and Otz are more than likely both softcapped and the matchmaking treats them in exactly the same way. Yet people consistently seem to think that other streamers (or themselves) get faced against more experienced survivors than Otz every single game. It couldn't be that Otz is so experienced with mindgames and killer powers that he makes some survivors look bad, or that people are so boosted by their perks and addons that they can't handle people who actually know how to loop, it must just be that Otz deranks offstream. PS I'm in this video, voted 5
Haha I thought you were serious at first but yea your right they are probably both at the same mmr but otz is very consistent in his skill and sometimes pulls off crazy tricks that make his survivors look like babies
@@justus4529 And the time of day is a factor too, like actually, Tru streams before the peak hours Otz streams in. And there is a difference 100% in the average player at that time.
The soft cap and MM make this challenge completely unreliable when it comes to drawing any conclusions, which is why I was slightly pissed at it being a thing:) Not in the sense that I don't like those challenges, but in the sense that it was observed as some kind of experiment where we can draw conclusions from the results. It makes no sense to have a top 0.1% player trying this experiment in a game with such a lax MM. If the MM was rigorous in DbD, then the experiment would have meant something. Or, if they found an average player and let that player play those games.
I really like both of these content creators and the way they went about this challenge really showed two sides of the coin here in playing killer. One side played to win, and the other side played like they usually do. Like others have said, this has shown us that the devs have balanced this game in a way that favors a boring, but practical playstyle, which leaves what I believe to be the most fun part of the game (killer/survivor interaction) out of focus, and to me, that's a real damn shame. As far as I play killer, I only play sweaty when I'm forced to, otherwise I play as nice as possible because it's more enjoyable to me. As someone else in the comments said, I think it's high time we set our *own* win conditions and do what's fun for us, and come to the understanding that at the end of the day, gamers will play how they want to play, and it's best we try not to foist our ways on others, right? Now if only they balanced the maps then we might alleviate some of the major problems...
I imagine it like a horror movie when i play killer, do i want to watch everyone get killed off with no pauses to the intensity? Nope, its just way more fun to mess with them.
"I am playing in a fun way" what an excuse. Even right before this challenge he played his pub games competitively going for 4Ks , not even 3Ks, using all the necessary means and tools to do so.
I tried to compensate for that in my rankings and mentioned it at 3:48 but I didn't mention it every time. Tru3 got Dead Dawg as Nemmy and Slinger and still didn't do much with it. Also they each got haddonfiled once, Tru3 with spirit (1K) and Otz with Bubba (4K). Otz biggest luck was getting midwich 3 times I think
I'm always interested by numbers and statistics. I like Tru but I feel like he may have been (sub)consciously sabotaging his games to fit with is expectations. That's a typical psychological pitfall.
Yeah I understand True even less now. Doesn't slug or camp as often during this challenge, uses meta perks and slugs until they bleed out when not doing the challenge.
I know this is an old video but it was recommended obviously because people are still on Tru3's case - when he played these matches his goal was to play "fair" and show that it was survivor sided when playing that way while Otz went out to prove that playing like a a**h**e get you more kills/wins, Tru3 no longer plays this way and has 100% more success while Otz still tries to play fair and get way more frustrated so I'd say Otz got his way and is now regretting showcasing the game in that way, Tru3 still goes for fancy mind games but that is part of being an entertainer. Otz only proved one thing that the average survivor isn't that good and most players are just trying to do things that are fun which is what Tru3 wanted the balance of the game to reflect but instead Otz's voice was louder and Tru3 got silenced and now the game is the way it is now - funny how karma works.
You mentioned Otz has alot more hours than Tru, but is that even true. Im pretty sure True has been playing the game longer than Otz. Otz was still doing hitless Dark Souls runs for the first couple years DBD was out and didnt get really serious into it until like 2018 i thought. Maybe Im wrong about that.
The game is balanced around hockey. Jokes aside, it saddens me to see that you need to be a c*nt to be able to perform well. Camping, tunneling and slugging is the name of the game. I literally had a match yesterday where I played Nurse perfectly and between the point of finding a survivor, downing them, hooking them and finding another survivor, the downtime was 20-25 seconds. The blinks were perfect. Everyone escaped on death hook and I depipped. I got 8 hooks, no kills and 7 out of 8 hooks were with Pain Resonance.
thank you for taking the time to make this. videos like this are really cool and help analyze the game as a whole imo. always fun to compare results like these in my interpretation of your analysis, you basically implied the whole time that they were doing 2 different challenges. i agree with that completely. otz final conclusion was that this game is pretty balanced, possibly even killer sided, if they play as ruthlessly as possible. 100% agree; anyone who thinks that hard camping and hard tunneling isnt an efficient strategy is just wrong. to me, THAT was the real point of otz's challenge. on the other hand, despite what he and his community might tell you, true wasnt playing the same challenge. he gave himself the same handicaps (30s afk, no perks/add-ons/offerings), but chose to play sub-optimally. he could have played scummy, but he didnt want to. he played the way that most survivors want their killers to play, and from my experience, how most killers want to play. also, while i didnt watch his play, judging from your video, he started suffering from massive burnout about midway through. ignoring the quality of the survivors, (because in a game with broken matchmaking, thats just way too variable,) their play styles are what separated their results. otz played as efficiently as possible with the goal in mind of getting as many kills as possible. true played as "nice" as he could, with his own overall goal of chasing hooks and playing to have fun, which technically wasnt the idea of the challenge. naturally their results are different. i dont think either result "proves" that the game is killer or survivor sided. i believe it proves that camping, tunneling, and even slugging are viable strategies. then i would argue that because these are viable strategies that it makes the game killer sided, to which i would also add: maybe it should be. in a 1v4, the game should be sided towards the 1 because they have more to do. true and people who agree with him think that these should NOT be viable strategies because they take the fun out of the game. i also agree with this. however its been 6 years, and theyve done nearly nothing about it besides adding a few perks. theres no incentive NOT to play ruthlessly if someone wanted to (losing a few points in 1 of 4 categories clearly isnt enough discouragement), so playing as "fun" as possible is essentially playing with a handicap. my point is, camping, tunneling, and slugging are viable strategies; complaining about them doesnt change that, so its better to just set your own win conditions.
thanks for the detailed comment! I agree that, unless you decide yourself that you don't want to, the game heavily encourages unfun strategies on both sides.
Watching true talent I've realized he has a set of things he finds fun, and cannot fathom that other people find different aspects fun at all. He can't be moved on his opinions, like a flat earther coming to their conclusion and looking for things that support that.
Feel bad for tru3, I feel he's just being more burnt out of Dbd in general, can't blame him for not wanting to sweat to win when winning has become so unrewarding to do so. I mean who would want to win if it only revolved around camping and tunneling? The game is most fun for both sides in the chase and mind games, not the tunneling and face camping.
The contrast mainly shows how you basically have to decide between a fun match or a sweaty match however true definitely could’ve tried harder but tbf who wants to try hard knowing they’re already at a massive disadvantage
Yeah, but Otz' conclusion of hyper sweaty great killer can match average survivors doesn't make the game balanced, it just proves the killer can actually win some games.
No, it proves whoever plays the sweatiest wins. Killers won't just win 'sometimes' they can regularly 3-4k if they play like assholes. But that's the issue, Killers don't find sweating or playing like dickhead's fun. If you play to win, you'll win, but you can't have fun. That's the problem. It's balanced too much around efficiency rather than a healthy balance of strat and fun. I dunno how you came to the conclusion "you'll only win sometimes"
@@ByAzuraByAzuraByAzura The game is balanced, just that it's boring and unhealthy game design to play optimally. It just means that people should understand that calling for nerfs/buffs is not necessarily going to solve the issue but rather a complete rework the more boring and unfun aspects of the game is what it's really needed.
I agree with almost everything but the pinhead game. As a pinhead main the game is one of the worst map for him its brutal chain can rapidly become useless, i counted more than 5 god palets and more than 10 safe palets. Against decent survivors the game with pinhead can really become unwinnable
Getting great survivors on a more constant basis, which seemed to be the case of True will take a Toll on any person. I've waited 2 years to finally reinstall the game again to test the new patch, and any uninstall again after realizing that, any swf with two braincells completely breakers the game.
[first comment before watching the video fully] absolutely no disrespect to tru3 but I wanna point out how he royally threw in a lot of his matches. for example, in his michael myers match, he took a solid THIRTY SECONDS to follow a survivor around a stack of logs to get out of tier 2 and iirc he didn't even finish before leaving the survivor. he didn't play efficiently, and you can be efficient without going completely dirty (camping, tunneling, slugging for the 4k). you know what I mean? thank you for the analysis nonetheless!
[watched whole video] okay, after finishing the video, I wanna make a second comment! you are completely right about tru3 not taking the game seriously. you don't even have to play nasty to get good results in matches, either. he made so many mistakes, it was ridiculous. I was nearly pulling out my hair watching that Michael game, and deeply wondering how he managed to get such a good result on huntress even though he went for really weird mindgames. I hope people don't really take tru3's gameplay here as an example for now "toxic" survivors are or how "impossible" it is to win without 4 slowdown perks.
@@KillaWhaleYour kinda ragging on true to much, I was watching when both true and otz did this challenge and they played pretty much equal considering they had 2 different styles of play, you kinda just gave it to otz the whole vid
Well I watched each game alternatively (as in, per killer) to try and keep the comparison direct. True pretty much never camped and tunneled and as a result got way less kills, so of course I gave the edge to Otz based on results alone. I don't think they played equal at all.
I think that since otz was really pressuring survivors with all the mean plays he can get, his survivers he faced seemed to be a lot more worst than Tru's. What sold me here is that even when otz was on a win streak with this method (which should have raisen his mmr by a lot) he still was able to keep pressure and win most of his games as result. Meanwhile tru seemed to me that he was getting tired at the end and making dumb plays which is really weird for him to do. But thats just me
I think between the two, Tru showed the more realistic side of killers. Sure, if we all played like Otz, absolutely perfectly with no fun in mind, as dirty as possible and got enough matches with bad enough survivors, we could win all the time. But it's not fun. Like playing survivor optimally, it's not really fun because 90% of gameplay is holding m1 on generators, or holding shift w during chases and running really early, but survivors do it because it's so, so much easier. Otz's mindset is also totally different from Tru's, so much that I think the reason why Tru didn't do 'as well' is because he's trying to force himself to play in a way he's not really into, nor how he wants dbd to be played for everyone. Regardless, I still think Otz shouldn't of provided this as 'evidence' of balance because the way he's playing it is like a job, not like a game. Survivor is not harder, or as hard as killer, as killer, you have to focus 24/7 to do well, as survivor you only need to focus in bursts. But I dunno. I haven't played dbd in a good while now, I had quit when boon totems came out because of how outrageous they are on an already survivor sided balance, and I'm glad I did. Dbd is just...not getting better. Not for killers anyway.
damn what and enjoyable video. like the 2 other videos i watched. subscribed. something about the videos on this channel just seem effortlessly funny it is a charm
In defense of Tru, Deciding to camp and tunnel were not necessarily part of the challenge, the established requirements were just no perks, no addons, and wait 30 seconds. That's not to say camping, tunneling, and slugging are never valid strategies, nor do they guarantee the 4k, but for the 1 player getting hyper-focused by these methods, there is almost no counterplay if you didn't load in with BT DH DS UB to begin with. And I think we can all agree bhvr doesn't run the tightest ship, so there will almost always be uncounterable exploits in the game, and not just for killers either. So I think there's merit for Tru to play the challenge with what is considered by many to be "fair" strats so we can compare and contrast with Otz's no-holds-barred method for this challenge. I don't think Otz or Tru would dispute the statement "This game is balanced if you do whatever it takes to win." I just think they disagree about what to do with that information. One might say work with the game as it is, the other would say the game should be rebalanced around the "fair" strats. I think the main issue is that there are conflicting incentives here. In match, the only clear goal is to kill the survivors before they escape, with the most straightforward way of achieving that being tunnel 1 or 2 out then slugging the rest. But in post-game, you are rewarded point-&-emblem-wise for playing "fairly" i.e. switching targets, allowing unhooks, spreading pressure, etc. So while I do think ideas like making BT basekit could be good for the health of the game, it would be a bad idea to buff survivors in this manner without giving killers another way to stop survivors if these unfavorable strats are no longer viable.
I agree, my only complaint with tru3 is that he never acknowledged the fact that he was playing a different challenge besides saying "I'm not playing in an unfun manner," yet he said (paraphrasing here) "THIS is the real result if you play good survivors, which is in line with what I expected" which isn't fair to compare. If you want to claim "THIS is the real result" you have to at least play the same way, or otherwise say something like "I'm testing if you can play fairly and get good results" which is in essence what he did. Thanks for the detailed comment!
So this challenge proved that killers should slug, tunnel and camp to win: all things devs don't want killers to do and have been actively nerfing. True played as killers were intended to be played and proved it's broken and clearly not balanced. Saying he didn't put effort in it it's simply not fair.
But he didn't put any effort in. He often didn't even put in a low or medium amount of effort, he just straight up wasn't playing well and then blamed it on the game being survivor sided.
Analysis content top tier. I watched both series in entirety, I think you are spot on with the analysis. Would like to see you loop a couple other folks in who tried it like OhTofu.
I think those games can't be use to prove anything. The skills levels and the organization of the survivors were different for each game so maybe he for 4k with Nurse because he had bad survivor and lost with trickster because he had more skilled survivors and also this game is very dependent on rng (position of pallet hook ect...
I think tru3 was trying to see if it was survivor sided IF you play normal playstyle as the game is intended without tunneling or camping etc which is proven to be more survivor sided but then it's shows it isn't if played dirty
I really like watching Otz he goes into detail on both sides and it shows with his vids, suggestions and so on. Tru3talent on the other hand mainly just complains about killer being bad and survivors being OP with not much other than basic blanket statements.
The argument of "well otz played the game in a way that isnt true to the game" or whateber is rediculous considering the no perks add ons, and the 30s head start. Thats an incredible challenge and hes just doing anything he can to offset that
I love this but they need both need to make a challenge with a goal/method that they both use. they need to have the question "Is dbd survivor favored, killer favored or it is balanced." statements like that at the top of a google doc, and then they both decide what is a win for killer and the parameters of this. Then they need to a test of 50 matches for different ways of playing, the first would be what they did with 0 perks and the other would be playing the game as normal but with the strongest perks. on both ways of playing they would need to do the best they can, meaning playing to win rather for fun. writing this all down on a google doc and them both sitting down to do this to make things more clear and concise rather than them both being like here's a challenge I wanna do with some rules and not much else.
in the early years of DBD true did try to be ruthless and 4k everything even with no perk... the problem was at that point, the game punished that playstyle and can de-rank a person playing like that... so he adapted the current playstyle that you all see now... its why true's mmr are is always so high even if its only 1k....
i would say otz always play non meta perks and no addon playstyle while tru3 always play the best for the best this is why otz dosen't have problem on these games he play his playstyle like for example ghostface tru3 play hit and run on no addon ghostface really bad but otz play exposed playstyle on ghostface
Otz actually said he feels it’s not survivor sided but that everyone else is. He feels that for the killers to win by doing such cheap game play such as tunneling and slugging is actually what’s killing the game because it’s not fun for either side. It’s not fun for killers to have to play that way to win and not fun for survivors. He thinks it’s only balanced in those specific scenarios which he as a killer main doesn’t actually agree should be a killers key gameplay strat
Depip Squad says hi with their 98% winrate on the survivor side out of 300 matches they played - 100 of the perkless. Nah, the game is clearly killer sided.
Otz had a 78% kill rate with no perks and a 30 sec head start, the extremely good players will have high winrates but they're pretty rare to go against so I don't think balancing around them is the correct move. Out of 52 games, only 1 (Tru3's Meyers game) was a squad like that.
@@KillaWhale Otz and Tru3's challenge mean nothing, because braindead survivors are abundant. It's the possibility of what one side is capable of which points out the game is not properly balanced. Survivor needs a nerf across the board simply because 90% of killer roster is nor prepared to deal with good survivors holding M1 on gens diligently. You do not need to be top 1% survivor to win, all you have to do and your team is to do gens - that's it. Depip Squad proved that, because they were all killer mains and mediocre survivors at best yet they still managed to stopm 98% of killer who were brave enough to face them and they did it perkless mind you. Also as we all know MMR is not the same on every killer so Otz's results are meaningless. He would have to test every killer with the same decent/good team to get some valuable information. When he failed his Pinhead winstreak it told me that MMR in fact works, and than he was only able to get 20 wins before he crashed into a brick wall. Survivors dictate the pace of the game from the start of the match - it's simple math really. I am not saying nerf gen speed, but all the second chance perks and exhaustion need to be looked at. Dead Hard needs to go, because it's dumb - the game is not balanced around survivors having basicly 3 health states. Even in competetive scene there are limitations put on survivors - they cannot equip the same perk twice. No, the game is heavily survivor sided as it always has been.
@@KillaWhale I am just going to say one of Tru3's words he said in a stream about balancing for high mmr players: Players can get better at a game as they play it more, they do not get worse by putting more hours in it, it is logical that they get better since people can adapt to situations and find the best solutions for said situations. So can you say why would the game be worse if balanced it around the top? I mean logically a harder game would make it less noob frendly but that will make more die hard players of said game which would make more interesting matches since players would have to be at a close skill raiting since they actually put ,,effort'' in getting good at the game and through these die hard players we can make other people want to give the game more time and see that they can get good at it. Frustration at a game has 2 ways it can go: you either get over it and persist and get better as time goes on or you just move on and play something else. DBD is for me of the first type if you give time to it you can get good BUT there are flawed game designes and choices from the devs and the community mind you, that make the people who gave up, aka the second group to come back and try again. For example is second chance perks, strong loops, increased number of pallets, communication, all the new ways to HEAL YOURSELF which mind you removed any sort of hit and run strategies which in fact Tru prefers more, aka his Ghostface game and the reason why Ghostface from his favorite killers became one of his bottom tier. For me who preffered Tru3's way of playing and having more chases more interactions the most fun games i have had are from 15 to 20 min. In these games even if the survivors lost i most of the time have chased every one 3 times and actually made the game interactive, which now is kind of imposible. I have quit DBD for about an year in hoping that something good will happen and all i am seeing is the same old 5 min games, tunneling and camping, still noob friendly changes, band aid fixes and the especially stupid logic that Otz, Scot and others preech: Kills and escapes are what matter, they are a easyer goal than hooks, saves bodyblocks, flashlight saves and so on! Well here we are so Otz and the rest mostly got what they wanted and we get a borring playstyle game where everyone is an asshole, make the game worse for the other player as much is possible, hack and exploit anything you can find aka the rescent ,,Boil Over''. Tru3 plays for wins while having fun the rest play for win and nothing else matters and that's why he gave up after half of the stream he saw this was pointless, not fun, borring content, a very sad future for the game, since the most important part is missing ,,FUN'' in the game.
@@doomsday607 I wouldn't want this game balanced around the top players, because it wouldn't be fun it'd be even more of a sweatfest than it is. The game needs a healthy balance of strat but to still allow fun to win. No content creator is pushing for anything? You realise Otz did the challenge to prove the point this game is balanced around unfun strats? That's not Otz's, or Scott's or whoever's fault.. it's the dev's for designing DBD this way.
@@ByAzuraByAzuraByAzura Still doesn't change the fact that with Otz doing said ,,challenges'' he is giving the devs a way out excuse in every situation where balance becomes a topic. They will just say: But this favourite streamer did this why can't you the rest of the playerbase do it. Or look this streamer did this and shows that our game works as intened and so on. The thing about ,,fun'' in dbd and games in general is different. DBD has a code that inherently is a competative one. The game is PVP and a 1vs4 at that, yet here is the reason the ,,sweating'' comes from. In pvp games ,,fun'' is mostly in the form of toxicity and bulling like T-baging in shooters, emoting after you kill said player, or exploiting mechanics that were not designed to be used in said way. The most healthy fun with very little toxicity for example is if in DBD the killers were always bots. That way it reduces the need to bully since it is just a computer, and feeling superrior to a bot is way uninteresting than feeling superiority to another human being. The sweat fest comes in the form of inbalances like: why does the killer have to kick a gen while survivors who are 4 can just click it to stop regression, why do survivors have so many second chances while there are 4 of them, why do they all have 16 perks while killer has only 4, why do gens take 80 sec while picking up a survivor and taking them to a hook can be 10-15 sec at times and so on. Killers sweat because when they win they get the feeling that they have beaten the odds and acomplished something when in the end they realise that they just won and nothing will change that game will still be unabalanced, survivors will still be toxic. Camping and tunneling are toxic but not because most killers do it just to be toxic, there are assholes who do it don't get me wrong, but because the game is swaying too much in handholding survivors that it leaves the killer with little room to do or use anying else but gen regression perks and said strategies. After the next patch that is comming it is only going to get worse since mostly all of the gen regression peks are pointless to use now, while again survivors get BT as basekit and dead hard nerf which is going to be changed for sprint burst and every one will do a 99% sprint burst now. For a team game for example Vermintide 2 it is 4 people vs the odds and they have to use and do anying to survive. I have not seen any toxicity there only maybe a bit of elitism, because it is a fun coop game where there is no pvp what so ever. You can have fun in dbd but not in it's competative state or mode, we need a mode where we can do these random things like what hakkers can do and have fun and be silly and by that all of the players killer included.
Wait, Otz has a lot more hours in the game? I always thought is was the other way around, Tru3 has been playing since day 1, while Otz picked up the game in 2018, that's almost a 2 year difference for Tru3, but maybe Otz has out-grinded him.
so true talent says dbd is survivor sided, even though he does not want to play to win... that is kind of backwards thinking. i agree that camping is boring, but tunneling is just a requirement sometimes to get a win. if you get rid of the weakest players first, the strongest player will be left to fend for themselves and will struggle to beat you. think of it as chess. if you want to get the king, you will need to get past the weaker pieces on the board. otherwise you'll lose as the enemy takes all of your pieces.
What are we labeling a killer main, normally when someone says "main" that would imply they don't play survivor. Unless the meaning or "main" has changed since I've been able to pick up a controller. ( late 90s-2000s)
Mostly I just took what these guys have generally branded themselves as, but there's no real definition lol. Tru3 is actually really solid at survivor for being a self declared killer main. For me its just whatever you play and enjoy more
Generally speaking "main" is gonna refer to your preference/majority played. People who *only* play something these days are called one-tricks or OTPs (one-trick ponies). So in League of Legends, for example, a Twitch main will usually play Twitch but might play other things because they feel like it or because the comp doesn't support Twitch or whatever. A Twitch one-trick will basically never play anything besides Twitch, to the point of dodging a game if Twitch is unavailable in some cases. Both Otz and Tru3 play both sides really well but they play more games as killer, so "killer mains"
True played the game how he usually plays. He wasn't being an absolute douchebag, he was playing the game, and trying. Though he wasn't trying so hard it ruined the survivors entire game. Which is exactly how the devs intend the game to be played.
I think that their approaches to the challenge are indicative of their personalities and channels. Otz works like an addict to grow his channel while Tru3 for the most part just plays the game. They're probably both equally as good at this game. Let me top this by saying that I would be even worse at starting a channel.
I don’t think it’s fair to say they are equally as good at this game. Time and time again, Otz shows a technical skill and command of the game that Tru3 lacks, and I think it’s partly in down to their psyche and approach to the game. Whenever Tru3 does badly, he’s always quick to say it’s because of SWF or because the game is unbalanced or because of toxic survivors… i.e. it’s never his fault, so he rarely seizes opportunities to meaningfully learn or develop. Otz, on the other hand, is extraordinarily analytical and open minded about new plays and how he failed or got outplayed in situations - he sees every defeat or bad moment for him as an opportunity to learn from and be prepared for next time. Tru3’s stubbornness and ego means he has a ceiling on how much he’s willing to acknowledge and learn from. Otz seems much more of an open book, and knows the game and survivor counters far better as a consequence.
I’m very late but if I had to guess True experiment is can u win by just going for hooks no , slugs or camping or ect Where ots is doing the opposite playing the most aggressive as possible to see if u win The average player isn’t coming on the game to sweat to slug , proxy at 4/5 gens and ect ect they want to go for chases Both parties had 2 vastly different experiments Your saying that true didn’t want to actually challenge his perspective u would also half to use the same argument for otz as well , if both of them flipped and did each other experiment how they where both sides would get different results So both sides r being disingenuous and not actually challenging there perspective
This holds up today too. All these videos watching and judging killer play. They will say well you should have went back to the gen because bla bla. No if you play more savage you will win more.
I genuinely like tru3, he can be funny and his accent is intoxicating. The thing that bothers me about him is that he's quite delusional about his own skill level. He thinks he's a lot better player than he is. I've watched him play dbd for a very long time. I would say he's a pretty good survivor but a mediocre killer. So he ends up having some really bad takes on balance because of this. Good guy though.
Oh yeah, suuuuper mediocre killer. He'll spend 5 minutes trying to mindgame a really safe pallet and not just kicking the pallet. He mindgames too much and he's above average MMR at most
See I agree I don’t think otz wanted to play as scummy as possible he did it for science. True didn’t play to actually try and see if it worked. The problem is I feel the devs are trying to balance the game based off people playing nice (I don’t say fair because everything is fair if you’re not cheating) I don’t want to say true didn’t try and was on purpose trying to skew the results but everyone else I saw try this challenge did better than true proves he didn’t play well
Where can I watch Tru3’s nurse game? Tru3 having a vpn and Razer Ad in the top center of his stream at all times is probably the most cringe thing he’s done, and that’s saying a lot for him.
yea true isnt really a thinker. especially with him saying lethal pursuer needs to add an exposed status effect for the first minute of that game lmaooo
Against a comp team... 1 K max for either of them, With every killer in the current meta. Never 2k. Perkless no addons is cute for randoms... But not serious gameplay Doesn't matter what either of their demeanors or purpose for the challenge was, These games were mostly against casuals, Who mostly were all doing random casual things. Tru3 got SWFs that were wild a few times, But if it had been comp teams against these 2, No dice. Probably 0.1K average
To me this shows the difference between a killer who is playing to win, and a killer playing for fun hoping to win. They both did similar challenge but the goals were quite different so it's not even really comparable.
I still had fun watching both though lol
I personally think that tru3 just wasn't taking it seriously. you can tell he wasn't having fun, nor was he winning much at all. ultimately a pointless experiment he took part in, otz did really well though and I wish more people would do this experiment.
@@Kingdomall i hope they dont
because the way otz plays is really unfun to go against and really unfun to play
(i love otz, and hate tru3)
but like i hope more people play liek tru3 the games meant for fun
@@DeputyFish late reply but oh well lol
otz' point was that any and all killers can 4k under most circumstances if you know how to play correctly. tru3 should have never done the experiment, his was completely and totally pointless. maybe he did it for fun, yeah? but he also went in with the same expectations that he left with because he didn't try hard enough.
did you watch any of tru3's montage? in his match as myers, he chased a survivor around the logs in macmillan for about 30 seconds before stalking at all. he royally threw that match with how he was playing, but I feel like he expected something more?
anyway it's not a big deal, and it's not like I want killers to try ultra hard like otz did for this challenge. it'd just be interesting to see other people's perspective.
@@Kingdomall youtube comments are forever
and the reason that truly neither of there experiments actually work is because
otz is a 9000 hour monster who's been playing the game for like 4-5 years
so saying that playing this way any killer can win is like saying anybody can play football professionally like yeah they can try
this is why the new patch is coming though i suppose to make easier on newer players and non godlike beings
@@DeputyFish otz may have godly amounts of hours but it is entirely possible to get good at your main and 4k often if not always. depends on your game sense, skill and patience.
Otz was 100% focused on his experiment while i believe Tru was subconciously thinking of this challange as just another dumb challange thing so wether conciously or subconciously, he relaxed more and more which made him play way more casual, atleast from what was seeing
yeah or mindblowing idea he just tried to have fun while otz facecamped and tunneled wich imo makes trues challenge have more of a point
@@miceatah9359 its called the no-perk challenge what do you want him to do? jack off the survivors and let them win?
@@miceatah9359 Otz's point got proven, The game is balanced around scummy, cheap and boring playstyles and not around killers that play for fun
@@psylina In the end it doesn't matter. Because ultimately people want fun games not sweaty unfun games.
I enjoyed your analysis! Felt really fair and thorough!
thanks!
This was my take on the whole challenge: It proves next to nothing about balance. What it proves is Otz is very determined and very skilled at killer. Some are claiming that Otz has proven the game is balanced, but that's like saying the NFL is balanced because the Browns can beat a highschool team. It's not to say Otz only plays bad survivors, not at all. It's to say that Otz plays teams with SIGNIFICANTLY less hours than him. To get an idea of balance you need both sides to be on at least a similar playing field. Similar hours, and a similar objective. You can't really control for the other teams not taking it seriously. Some will meme, some will DC, some might be interrupted by real life things. We have no idea what these survivors were thinking in any games.
The only thing these challenges could potentially prove is the opposite of what they set out to prove. We expect Otz to win, because Otz is Mike Tyson. Otz with perks is Tyson in his prime. Otz without perks is like Tyson today. Tyson today is still going to slap you silly.
A much more effective test would to get a bunch of games between Otz and Ayrun, JRM, Zubat, and Jae or something like that. See who comes out on top in a "best of 50 matches." But pairing up Otz against sub 2k hour survivors is a predictable outcome. Even without perks. The dude has over 8k hours in the game. That's the amount of hours you spend completing your masters LOL. And against who? Some survs who decided to chill out and play some DBD that afternoon while cracking some jokes over discord? None the wiser their gameplay would be a determining factor in "game balance" for thousands of players on reddit and youtube? LOL cmon.
But I'm glad someone actually decided to analyze these games. Your video is well done. I agree Otz tried way harder than True, and True's result doesn't reflect his skill. He could have done a lot better but he seemed burnt out halfway through. A lot of people roasted him for his performance afterward, and you know what? Fair enough. If you're not even going to try, but claim you are trying, then yeah people are going to roast you. It's a tough challenge. I couldn't do it myself. Or maybe I could since half my killers are low baby mmr lmao, but again... the issue of control groups is a big factor in these tests.
I agree, would love to see a large sample size of the same group of good players against Otz, with and without comms.
i don't think control groups would mean anything in otz's experiment. he was trying to show that survivor isn't just super easy and that the killer can't do anything. hes not saying that if he went up against a team with the same hours as him that he could do the same thing. he saying that even with major disadvantages he can still get an average kill count of 3 kills which in tern should mean an average player can get the same or close to the same with good perks and mediocre play. if he was to do the same thing verses teams with 8k hours obviously he would get destroyed but that wasn't the point of the experiment. its just to show that with the current dbd matchmaking anybody can still succeed with decent kill ratio if they play scummy. for any normal player they will have the same spread of semi decent players to bad players in their game but instead they will have good perks where otz had none, not to mention add ons, and they won't be sitting still for 30 seconds either. the main thing i see from the experiment is that if you are willing to be scummy you can get more kills. idk if it proves that the game is balanced but that people don't like playing certain ways to win even if it is the most effective way. I always call it meta because no one wants to do it and everyone always looks for a way to play without being scummy then complains even though they arn't playing the most effective way.
@@puppetmaster5166 You can't show that survivor is super easy or hard "on average" by taking an extreme example like Otz and pairing him up against the average player.
That is exactly why you need control groups. You cannot prove that kind of "balance" by doing that.
It would be more significant if Otz was losing games. Him winning isn't really all that surprising when he's paired up against chill survs who are being altruistic and not really trying to "win."
@@puppetmaster5166 Like okay here's some common ground to think about. Otz was playing scummy. But most of his matches? Most of his matches the survivors died being altruistic. Otz would have lost a LOT more games had the survs been as scummy as he was. I think that's important to point out. The survs weren't trying to win on the same level that Otz was sweating.
This is why I think control groups are necessary. You need both sides of the experiment to be fighting for the same goal, at the very least. That'd be like telling one team "okay whoever scores the most field goals wins the game." and telling the other team "okay whoever scores the most touchdowns wins the game." It'd be madness.
@@renaldoawesomesauce1654 The thing i think your suggesting is can killers get 3 kills on average if everyone is trying their hardest in the game. What im suggesting is that most of the time your against an unorganized team with no communication and below average teamwork. SWF is a whole different story compared to just average survivors. any SWF team will make your average killer have a hard game but that doesnt mean killers are underpowered or that survivors are overpowered, IMO it just means communication and teamwork is overpowered. Control groups wouldn't prove anything for average player it would just show what comp dbd already shows, that SWF is extremely strong when played right. if you go into any normal game when someone is facecamping and your playing survivor what does your team do? everyone goes to see whats happening, then they try to see if they can save I.E. waste a lot of time, then decide they will go do gens. If you put a SWF in that position they communicate immediately that they are getting camped and everyone rushes gens and then before tier 2 on hook they attempt a hook trade with one person and if they think they cant get it they return to doing gens until he is about to die then go for a hook trade with BT on that one person and all tank 1 hit individually while after they tank a hit rush to a gen and finish it. these are just a few individual things that SWF are better at.
I’d love to see tru3 try this challenge again with how he plays now. Back then he played more for fun but now he plays to win
Great video! I’d have to say considering true’s usual play style he did pretty well on this challenge. Otz just has a ridiculous number of hours and has basically done meme builds on every killer so this challenge wasn’t as hard for him compared to most killers who use good addons and perks. Maybe do a customs experiment with no perks on either side? Then some strong perks on both sides, then full meta on both sides with both sides having equal hours.
The funny thing to me about people saying Otz was playing against bad survivors is that MMR is soft capped at this game. Tru and Otz are more than likely both softcapped and the matchmaking treats them in exactly the same way. Yet people consistently seem to think that other streamers (or themselves) get faced against more experienced survivors than Otz every single game. It couldn't be that Otz is so experienced with mindgames and killer powers that he makes some survivors look bad, or that people are so boosted by their perks and addons that they can't handle people who actually know how to loop, it must just be that Otz deranks offstream.
PS I'm in this video, voted 5
Haha I thought you were serious at first but yea your right they are probably both at the same mmr but otz is very consistent in his skill and sometimes pulls off crazy tricks that make his survivors look like babies
@@justus4529 And the time of day is a factor too, like actually, Tru streams before the peak hours Otz streams in.
And there is a difference 100% in the average player at that time.
The soft cap and MM make this challenge completely unreliable when it comes to drawing any conclusions, which is why I was slightly pissed at it being a thing:) Not in the sense that I don't like those challenges, but in the sense that it was observed as some kind of experiment where we can draw conclusions from the results. It makes no sense to have a top 0.1% player trying this experiment in a game with such a lax MM. If the MM was rigorous in DbD, then the experiment would have meant something. Or, if they found an average player and let that player play those games.
god I HATE otzdarva
He's just so nice and good looking and he completely misrepresents the DBD player base.
So, for the fact that he misrepresents the dbd playerbase, u hate him? Unless i understood that wrong.
@@B1g_B0sssss It's a joke, they don't really hate him.
@@Bingo440 how was i so stupid.
@@B1g_B0sssss happens to the best of us from time to time. No need to worry about it.
@@Bingo440 thx
I really like both of these content creators and the way they went about this challenge really showed two sides of the coin here in playing killer. One side played to win, and the other side played like they usually do. Like others have said, this has shown us that the devs have balanced this game in a way that favors a boring, but practical playstyle, which leaves what I believe to be the most fun part of the game (killer/survivor interaction) out of focus, and to me, that's a real damn shame.
As far as I play killer, I only play sweaty when I'm forced to, otherwise I play as nice as possible because it's more enjoyable to me. As someone else in the comments said, I think it's high time we set our *own* win conditions and do what's fun for us, and come to the understanding that at the end of the day, gamers will play how they want to play, and it's best we try not to foist our ways on others, right?
Now if only they balanced the maps then we might alleviate some of the major problems...
I imagine it like a horror movie when i play killer, do i want to watch everyone get killed off with no pauses to the intensity? Nope, its just way more fun to mess with them.
I bet whale is buff as fuck with his chad analysis and opinions
3:48
Dead Hard: “Survivor Skill.”
Remember when you sucked at using dead hard? It takes some skill now fortunately
@@johntrains1317 Exactly
"I am playing in a fun way" what an excuse. Even right before this challenge he played his pub games competitively going for 4Ks , not even 3Ks, using all the necessary means and tools to do so.
Tru3Cop1um
I think something you overlooked was how killer sided or not the maps are. Otz getting Dead Dog's while Tru got Haddonfield.
I tried to compensate for that in my rankings and mentioned it at 3:48 but I didn't mention it every time. Tru3 got Dead Dawg as Nemmy and Slinger and still didn't do much with it. Also they each got haddonfiled once, Tru3 with spirit (1K) and Otz with Bubba (4K). Otz biggest luck was getting midwich 3 times I think
@@KillaWhale Yeah, Midwich is really good for him.
I'm always interested by numbers and statistics.
I like Tru but I feel like he may have been (sub)consciously sabotaging his games to fit with is expectations.
That's a typical psychological pitfall.
I 100% agree
It's a dumb experiment because actually trying to do good goes against his argument so there is no incentive for him to try like Otz did.
I love your analysis videos and I'd love to see more of it!
Yeah I understand True even less now. Doesn't slug or camp as often during this challenge, uses meta perks and slugs until they bleed out when not doing the challenge.
I think he did that on purpose so it could seem survivor sided ngl I like true but man he’s a little weird
Yeah, the confirmation bias is strong w Tru3
@@gin9561After reading the comments section, seeing how his fans are, and then checking out his stream myself, True is full of shit.
Cope chain.
I know this is an old video but it was recommended obviously because people are still on Tru3's case - when he played these matches his goal was to play "fair" and show that it was survivor sided when playing that way while Otz went out to prove that playing like a a**h**e get you more kills/wins, Tru3 no longer plays this way and has 100% more success while Otz still tries to play fair and get way more frustrated so I'd say Otz got his way and is now regretting showcasing the game in that way, Tru3 still goes for fancy mind games but that is part of being an entertainer. Otz only proved one thing that the average survivor isn't that good and most players are just trying to do things that are fun which is what Tru3 wanted the balance of the game to reflect but instead Otz's voice was louder and Tru3 got silenced and now the game is the way it is now - funny how karma works.
You mentioned Otz has alot more hours than Tru, but is that even true. Im pretty sure True has been playing the game longer than Otz. Otz was still doing hitless Dark Souls runs for the first couple years DBD was out and didnt get really serious into it until like 2018 i thought. Maybe Im wrong about that.
the last figures I had read were 7800 hrs for otz and around 6000+ for tru3 but tru3's could be outdated, hard to find a direct source on it.
The game is balanced around hockey. Jokes aside, it saddens me to see that you need to be a c*nt to be able to perform well. Camping, tunneling and slugging is the name of the game. I literally had a match yesterday where I played Nurse perfectly and between the point of finding a survivor, downing them, hooking them and finding another survivor, the downtime was 20-25 seconds. The blinks were perfect. Everyone escaped on death hook and I depipped. I got 8 hooks, no kills and 7 out of 8 hooks were with Pain Resonance.
thank you for taking the time to make this. videos like this are really cool and help analyze the game as a whole imo. always fun to compare results like these
in my interpretation of your analysis, you basically implied the whole time that they were doing 2 different challenges. i agree with that completely. otz final conclusion was that this game is pretty balanced, possibly even killer sided, if they play as ruthlessly as possible. 100% agree; anyone who thinks that hard camping and hard tunneling isnt an efficient strategy is just wrong. to me, THAT was the real point of otz's challenge.
on the other hand, despite what he and his community might tell you, true wasnt playing the same challenge. he gave himself the same handicaps (30s afk, no perks/add-ons/offerings), but chose to play sub-optimally. he could have played scummy, but he didnt want to. he played the way that most survivors want their killers to play, and from my experience, how most killers want to play. also, while i didnt watch his play, judging from your video, he started suffering from massive burnout about midway through. ignoring the quality of the survivors, (because in a game with broken matchmaking, thats just way too variable,) their play styles are what separated their results. otz played as efficiently as possible with the goal in mind of getting as many kills as possible. true played as "nice" as he could, with his own overall goal of chasing hooks and playing to have fun, which technically wasnt the idea of the challenge. naturally their results are different.
i dont think either result "proves" that the game is killer or survivor sided. i believe it proves that camping, tunneling, and even slugging are viable strategies. then i would argue that because these are viable strategies that it makes the game killer sided, to which i would also add: maybe it should be. in a 1v4, the game should be sided towards the 1 because they have more to do. true and people who agree with him think that these should NOT be viable strategies because they take the fun out of the game. i also agree with this. however its been 6 years, and theyve done nearly nothing about it besides adding a few perks. theres no incentive NOT to play ruthlessly if someone wanted to (losing a few points in 1 of 4 categories clearly isnt enough discouragement), so playing as "fun" as possible is essentially playing with a handicap. my point is, camping, tunneling, and slugging are viable strategies; complaining about them doesnt change that, so its better to just set your own win conditions.
thanks for the detailed comment! I agree that, unless you decide yourself that you don't want to, the game heavily encourages unfun strategies on both sides.
this channel is about to blow up, its a gem and i found it through the algorithm.
Watching true talent I've realized he has a set of things he finds fun, and cannot fathom that other people find different aspects fun at all. He can't be moved on his opinions, like a flat earther coming to their conclusion and looking for things that support that.
The whole "I don't wanna play to win because it's not fun" is just copium lol.
was not expecting this charming man for the outro
Feel bad for tru3, I feel he's just being more burnt out of Dbd in general, can't blame him for not wanting to sweat to win when winning has become so unrewarding to do so. I mean who would want to win if it only revolved around camping and tunneling?
The game is most fun for both sides in the chase and mind games, not the tunneling and face camping.
I feel like true is more and more right the more the meta develops in current day
2:08 🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂
6:58 omg dude, that Kobe is ant bubbas nightmare lol.
The contrast mainly shows how you basically have to decide between a fun match or a sweaty match however true definitely could’ve tried harder but tbf who wants to try hard knowing they’re already at a massive disadvantage
Yeah, but Otz' conclusion of hyper sweaty great killer can match average survivors doesn't make the game balanced, it just proves the killer can actually win some games.
They're both literally at the same soft capped mmr level. Those are definitely not the "average" survivors.
@@jase7401 There is no MMR at that level. All survivors in the top 60% of MMR are the same.
No, it proves whoever plays the sweatiest wins. Killers won't just win 'sometimes' they can regularly 3-4k if they play like assholes. But that's the issue, Killers don't find sweating or playing like dickhead's fun. If you play to win, you'll win, but you can't have fun. That's the problem. It's balanced too much around efficiency rather than a healthy balance of strat and fun. I dunno how you came to the conclusion "you'll only win sometimes"
@@ByAzuraByAzuraByAzura The game is balanced, just that it's boring and unhealthy game design to play optimally. It just means that people should understand that calling for nerfs/buffs is not necessarily going to solve the issue but rather a complete rework the more boring and unfun aspects of the game is what it's really needed.
The challenge would be more fair if survivors also tried their best and we will see witch side has the advantage
I agree with almost everything but the pinhead game.
As a pinhead main the game is one of the worst map for him its brutal chain can rapidly become useless, i counted more than 5 god palets and more than 10 safe palets.
Against decent survivors the game with pinhead can really become unwinnable
Clearly biased watching this. Not saying anything is bad about that I love them both. But the praise and criticism was 100% diff for both.
Can you be more specific? I appreciate the feedback and I would like to avoid that if I do more analysis content in the future
Getting great survivors on a more constant basis, which seemed to be the case of True will take a Toll on any person.
I've waited 2 years to finally reinstall the game again to test the new patch, and any uninstall again after realizing that, any swf with two braincells completely breakers the game.
[first comment before watching the video fully] absolutely no disrespect to tru3 but I wanna point out how he royally threw in a lot of his matches. for example, in his michael myers match, he took a solid THIRTY SECONDS to follow a survivor around a stack of logs to get out of tier 2 and iirc he didn't even finish before leaving the survivor. he didn't play efficiently, and you can be efficient without going completely dirty (camping, tunneling, slugging for the 4k). you know what I mean?
thank you for the analysis nonetheless!
[watched whole video] okay, after finishing the video, I wanna make a second comment!
you are completely right about tru3 not taking the game seriously. you don't even have to play nasty to get good results in matches, either. he made so many mistakes, it was ridiculous. I was nearly pulling out my hair watching that Michael game, and deeply wondering how he managed to get such a good result on huntress even though he went for really weird mindgames. I hope people don't really take tru3's gameplay here as an example for now "toxic" survivors are or how "impossible" it is to win without 4 slowdown perks.
12 hours of Truetalent? I’m so sorry dude
Original and hilarious
Good one! 🤡
Right lol
You people are so sick.
@@markpozsar5785 Truetalent viewers try not to have Stockholm syndrome (IMPOSSIBLE CHALLENGE)
This video was clearly otzdarva sided
please elaborate!
@@KillaWhaleYour kinda ragging on true to much, I was watching when both true and otz did this challenge and they played pretty much equal considering they had 2 different styles of play, you kinda just gave it to otz the whole vid
Well I watched each game alternatively (as in, per killer) to try and keep the comparison direct. True pretty much never camped and tunneled and as a result got way less kills, so of course I gave the edge to Otz based on results alone. I don't think they played equal at all.
@@KillaWhale I mean… I guess
Ayyy more analysis!! it gives me a shred of dopamine in this cold heartless world
I think that since otz was really pressuring survivors with all the mean plays he can get, his survivers he faced seemed to be a lot more worst than Tru's. What sold me here is that even when otz was on a win streak with this method (which should have raisen his mmr by a lot) he still was able to keep pressure and win most of his games as result. Meanwhile tru seemed to me that he was getting tired at the end and making dumb plays which is really weird for him to do. But thats just me
I’m have to play like this from now on I guess
I think between the two, Tru showed the more realistic side of killers. Sure, if we all played like Otz, absolutely perfectly with no fun in mind, as dirty as possible and got enough matches with bad enough survivors, we could win all the time. But it's not fun. Like playing survivor optimally, it's not really fun because 90% of gameplay is holding m1 on generators, or holding shift w during chases and running really early, but survivors do it because it's so, so much easier. Otz's mindset is also totally different from Tru's, so much that I think the reason why Tru didn't do 'as well' is because he's trying to force himself to play in a way he's not really into, nor how he wants dbd to be played for everyone. Regardless, I still think Otz shouldn't of provided this as 'evidence' of balance because the way he's playing it is like a job, not like a game. Survivor is not harder, or as hard as killer, as killer, you have to focus 24/7 to do well, as survivor you only need to focus in bursts. But I dunno. I haven't played dbd in a good while now, I had quit when boon totems came out because of how outrageous they are on an already survivor sided balance, and I'm glad I did. Dbd is just...not getting better. Not for killers anyway.
You spoke truth. I wish Finger Guns would do this challange. Kinda too late tho, with the mmr changes.
And look at tru3 now, playing to win by any means necessary
Analysis is reallly nice content. Keep it up!
will do! thanks :)
When some toxic killers try saying that Otz is “too nice”, this challenge proves otherwise.
damn what and enjoyable video. like the 2 other videos i watched. subscribed. something about the videos on this channel just seem effortlessly funny it is a charm
In defense of Tru, Deciding to camp and tunnel were not necessarily part of the challenge, the established requirements were just no perks, no addons, and wait 30 seconds. That's not to say camping, tunneling, and slugging are never valid strategies, nor do they guarantee the 4k, but for the 1 player getting hyper-focused by these methods, there is almost no counterplay if you didn't load in with BT DH DS UB to begin with. And I think we can all agree bhvr doesn't run the tightest ship, so there will almost always be uncounterable exploits in the game, and not just for killers either. So I think there's merit for Tru to play the challenge with what is considered by many to be "fair" strats so we can compare and contrast with Otz's no-holds-barred method for this challenge. I don't think Otz or Tru would dispute the statement "This game is balanced if you do whatever it takes to win." I just think they disagree about what to do with that information. One might say work with the game as it is, the other would say the game should be rebalanced around the "fair" strats. I think the main issue is that there are conflicting incentives here. In match, the only clear goal is to kill the survivors before they escape, with the most straightforward way of achieving that being tunnel 1 or 2 out then slugging the rest. But in post-game, you are rewarded point-&-emblem-wise for playing "fairly" i.e. switching targets, allowing unhooks, spreading pressure, etc. So while I do think ideas like making BT basekit could be good for the health of the game, it would be a bad idea to buff survivors in this manner without giving killers another way to stop survivors if these unfavorable strats are no longer viable.
I agree, my only complaint with tru3 is that he never acknowledged the fact that he was playing a different challenge besides saying "I'm not playing in an unfun manner," yet he said (paraphrasing here) "THIS is the real result if you play good survivors, which is in line with what I expected" which isn't fair to compare. If you want to claim "THIS is the real result" you have to at least play the same way, or otherwise say something like "I'm testing if you can play fairly and get good results" which is in essence what he did. Thanks for the detailed comment!
fuck "omg i have a chance to be a cunt here" just hit me so hard
I really enjoyed the video! Keep up the good work!
Playing killer is a lose lose situation, you either play to win and you get harassed and bullied or you play for fun and lose most the time
I showed this video to Bubba. Now I am getting facecamped.
Thank you for the comparison
So this challenge proved that killers should slug, tunnel and camp to win: all things devs don't want killers to do and have been actively nerfing. True played as killers were intended to be played and proved it's broken and clearly not balanced. Saying he didn't put effort in it it's simply not fair.
But he didn't put any effort in. He often didn't even put in a low or medium amount of effort, he just straight up wasn't playing well and then blamed it on the game being survivor sided.
Analysis content top tier.
I watched both series in entirety, I think you are spot on with the analysis. Would like to see you loop a couple other folks in who tried it like OhTofu.
Love your content bro! Appreciate all your jokes too :P
I think those games can't be use to prove anything. The skills levels and the organization of the survivors were different for each game so maybe he for 4k with Nurse because he had bad survivor and lost with trickster because he had more skilled survivors and also this game is very dependent on rng (position of pallet hook ect...
Really enjoyed this video, well done
bruh the 8 bit this charming killed me
Cool vid! I enjoyed it a lot.
I think tru3 was trying to see if it was survivor sided IF you play normal playstyle as the game is intended without tunneling or camping etc which is proven to be more survivor sided but then it's shows it isn't if played dirty
He didn't really put any effort tho, just trying to fit his own agenda.
I really like watching Otz he goes into detail on both sides and it shows with his vids, suggestions and so on.
Tru3talent on the other hand mainly just complains about killer being bad and survivors being OP with not much other than basic blanket statements.
The argument of "well otz played the game in a way that isnt true to the game" or whateber is rediculous considering the no perks add ons, and the 30s head start. Thats an incredible challenge and hes just doing anything he can to offset that
So , basically, just play like you're a real life Killer and the survivor rule handbook doesn't exist
I love this but they need both need to make a challenge with a goal/method that they both use. they need to have the question "Is dbd survivor favored, killer favored or it is balanced." statements like that at the top of a google doc, and then they both decide what is a win for killer and the parameters of this. Then they need to a test of 50 matches for different ways of playing, the first would be what they did with 0 perks and the other would be playing the game as normal but with the strongest perks. on both ways of playing they would need to do the best they can, meaning playing to win rather for fun. writing this all down on a google doc and them both sitting down to do this to make things more clear and concise rather than them both being like here's a challenge I wanna do with some rules and not much else.
just found you love the vids keep it up
in the early years of DBD true did try to be ruthless and 4k everything even with no perk... the problem was at that point, the game punished that playstyle and can de-rank a person playing like that... so he adapted the current playstyle that you all see now... its why true's mmr are is always so high even if its only 1k....
True was "trying to win" by standing at combine farm and sniping people with trickster knives? Haha
Complainers need reasoning, ignore the gameplay listen to his bitching, dummy.
you are wrong, the game is extremly survivor sided
Zeb89 won all his games but 2 which he tied, when he did this challenge.
Fascinating.
Great video!
Death slinger has bug when you shoot the survivor sometimes doesn't prove goes through them!
i would say otz always play non meta perks and no addon playstyle while tru3 always play the best for the best
this is why otz dosen't have problem on these games he play his playstyle like for example ghostface tru3 play hit and run on no addon ghostface really bad but otz play exposed playstyle on ghostface
that's great point on the ghostface game in terms of playstyle differences
Otz actually said he feels it’s not survivor sided but that everyone else is. He feels that for the killers to win by doing such cheap game play such as tunneling and slugging is actually what’s killing the game because it’s not fun for either side. It’s not fun for killers to have to play that way to win and not fun for survivors. He thinks it’s only balanced in those specific scenarios which he as a killer main doesn’t actually agree should be a killers key gameplay strat
its obvious otz is playing at a lower mmr level lmao
2:08 legit made me lol.
Depip Squad says hi with their 98% winrate on the survivor side out of 300 matches they played - 100 of the perkless. Nah, the game is clearly killer sided.
Otz had a 78% kill rate with no perks and a 30 sec head start, the extremely good players will have high winrates but they're pretty rare to go against so I don't think balancing around them is the correct move. Out of 52 games, only 1 (Tru3's Meyers game) was a squad like that.
@@KillaWhale Otz and Tru3's challenge mean nothing, because braindead survivors are abundant. It's the possibility of what one side is capable of which points out the game is not properly balanced. Survivor needs a nerf across the board simply because 90% of killer roster is nor prepared to deal with good survivors holding M1 on gens diligently. You do not need to be top 1% survivor to win, all you have to do and your team is to do gens - that's it. Depip Squad proved that, because they were all killer mains and mediocre survivors at best yet they still managed to stopm 98% of killer who were brave enough to face them and they did it perkless mind you. Also as we all know MMR is not the same on every killer so Otz's results are meaningless. He would have to test every killer with the same decent/good team to get some valuable information. When he failed his Pinhead winstreak it told me that MMR in fact works, and than he was only able to get 20 wins before he crashed into a brick wall. Survivors dictate the pace of the game from the start of the match - it's simple math really. I am not saying nerf gen speed, but all the second chance perks and exhaustion need to be looked at. Dead Hard needs to go, because it's dumb - the game is not balanced around survivors having basicly 3 health states. Even in competetive scene there are limitations put on survivors - they cannot equip the same perk twice. No, the game is heavily survivor sided as it always has been.
@@KillaWhale I am just going to say one of Tru3's words he said in a stream about balancing for high mmr players: Players can get better at a game as they play it more, they do not get worse by putting more hours in it, it is logical that they get better since people can adapt to situations and find the best solutions for said situations. So can you say why would the game be worse if balanced it around the top? I mean logically a harder game would make it less noob frendly but that will make more die hard players of said game which would make more interesting matches since players would have to be at a close skill raiting since they actually put ,,effort'' in getting good at the game and through these die hard players we can make other people want to give the game more time and see that they can get good at it. Frustration at a game has 2 ways it can go: you either get over it and persist and get better as time goes on or you just move on and play something else. DBD is for me of the first type if you give time to it you can get good BUT there are flawed game designes and choices from the devs and the community mind you, that make the people who gave up, aka the second group to come back and try again. For example is second chance perks, strong loops, increased number of pallets, communication, all the new ways to HEAL YOURSELF which mind you removed any sort of hit and run strategies which in fact Tru prefers more, aka his Ghostface game and the reason why Ghostface from his favorite killers became one of his bottom tier. For me who preffered Tru3's way of playing and having more chases more interactions the most fun games i have had are from 15 to 20 min. In these games even if the survivors lost i most of the time have chased every one 3 times and actually made the game interactive, which now is kind of imposible. I have quit DBD for about an year in hoping that something good will happen and all i am seeing is the same old 5 min games, tunneling and camping, still noob friendly changes, band aid fixes and the especially stupid logic that Otz, Scot and others preech: Kills and escapes are what matter, they are a easyer goal than hooks, saves bodyblocks, flashlight saves and so on! Well here we are so Otz and the rest mostly got what they wanted and we get a borring playstyle game where everyone is an asshole, make the game worse for the other player as much is possible, hack and exploit anything you can find aka the rescent ,,Boil Over''. Tru3 plays for wins while having fun the rest play for win and nothing else matters and that's why he gave up after half of the stream he saw this was pointless, not fun, borring content, a very sad future for the game, since the most important part is missing ,,FUN'' in the game.
@@doomsday607 I wouldn't want this game balanced around the top players, because it wouldn't be fun it'd be even more of a sweatfest than it is. The game needs a healthy balance of strat but to still allow fun to win. No content creator is pushing for anything? You realise Otz did the challenge to prove the point this game is balanced around unfun strats? That's not Otz's, or Scott's or whoever's fault.. it's the dev's for designing DBD this way.
@@ByAzuraByAzuraByAzura Still doesn't change the fact that with Otz doing said ,,challenges'' he is giving the devs a way out excuse in every situation where balance becomes a topic. They will just say:
But this favourite streamer did this why can't you the rest of the playerbase do it.
Or look this streamer did this and shows that our game works as intened and so on.
The thing about ,,fun'' in dbd and games in general is different. DBD has a code that inherently is a competative one. The game is PVP and a 1vs4 at that, yet here is the reason the ,,sweating'' comes from. In pvp games ,,fun'' is mostly in the form of toxicity and bulling like T-baging in shooters, emoting after you kill said player, or exploiting mechanics that were not designed to be used in said way. The most healthy fun with very little toxicity for example is if in DBD the killers were always bots. That way it reduces the need to bully since it is just a computer, and feeling superrior to a bot is way uninteresting than feeling superiority to another human being. The sweat fest comes in the form of inbalances like: why does the killer have to kick a gen while survivors who are 4 can just click it to stop regression, why do survivors have so many second chances while there are 4 of them, why do they all have 16 perks while killer has only 4, why do gens take 80 sec while picking up a survivor and taking them to a hook can be 10-15 sec at times and so on. Killers sweat because when they win they get the feeling that they have beaten the odds and acomplished something when in the end they realise that they just won and nothing will change that game will still be unabalanced, survivors will still be toxic. Camping and tunneling are toxic but not because most killers do it just to be toxic, there are assholes who do it don't get me wrong, but because the game is swaying too much in handholding survivors that it leaves the killer with little room to do or use anying else but gen regression perks and said strategies. After the next patch that is comming it is only going to get worse since mostly all of the gen regression peks are pointless to use now, while again survivors get BT as basekit and dead hard nerf which is going to be changed for sprint burst and every one will do a 99% sprint burst now. For a team game for example Vermintide 2 it is 4 people vs the odds and they have to use and do anying to survive. I have not seen any toxicity there only maybe a bit of elitism, because it is a fun coop game where there is no pvp what so ever. You can have fun in dbd but not in it's competative state or mode, we need a mode where we can do these random things like what hakkers can do and have fun and be silly and by that all of the players killer included.
Wait, Otz has a lot more hours in the game? I always thought is was the other way around, Tru3 has been playing since day 1, while Otz picked up the game in 2018, that's almost a 2 year difference for Tru3, but maybe Otz has out-grinded him.
There are so many issues with this challenge, I don't think it proves anything.
Good shit!
so true talent says dbd is survivor sided, even though he does not want to play to win... that is kind of backwards thinking. i agree that camping is boring, but tunneling is just a requirement sometimes to get a win. if you get rid of the weakest players first, the strongest player will be left to fend for themselves and will struggle to beat you.
think of it as chess. if you want to get the king, you will need to get past the weaker pieces on the board. otherwise you'll lose as the enemy takes all of your pieces.
4:45 omg I see myself :0
What are we labeling a killer main, normally when someone says "main" that would imply they don't play survivor.
Unless the meaning or "main" has changed since I've been able to pick up a controller. ( late 90s-2000s)
Mostly I just took what these guys have generally branded themselves as, but there's no real definition lol. Tru3 is actually really solid at survivor for being a self declared killer main. For me its just whatever you play and enjoy more
Generally speaking "main" is gonna refer to your preference/majority played. People who *only* play something these days are called one-tricks or OTPs (one-trick ponies).
So in League of Legends, for example, a Twitch main will usually play Twitch but might play other things because they feel like it or because the comp doesn't support Twitch or whatever. A Twitch one-trick will basically never play anything besides Twitch, to the point of dodging a game if Twitch is unavailable in some cases.
Both Otz and Tru3 play both sides really well but they play more games as killer, so "killer mains"
Main =/= exclusive
hens333 comparison on them using the strongest builds?
Accurate conclusions
Can we please bring back the old maps? Just add them to the map pool.
True played the game how he usually plays. He wasn't being an absolute douchebag, he was playing the game, and trying. Though he wasn't trying so hard it ruined the survivors entire game. Which is exactly how the devs intend the game to be played.
I think that their approaches to the challenge are indicative of their personalities and channels. Otz works like an addict to grow his channel while Tru3 for the most part just plays the game. They're probably both equally as good at this game. Let me top this by saying that I would be even worse at starting a channel.
I don’t think it’s fair to say they are equally as good at this game. Time and time again, Otz shows a technical skill and command of the game that Tru3 lacks, and I think it’s partly in down to their psyche and approach to the game.
Whenever Tru3 does badly, he’s always quick to say it’s because of SWF or because the game is unbalanced or because of toxic survivors… i.e. it’s never his fault, so he rarely seizes opportunities to meaningfully learn or develop. Otz, on the other hand, is extraordinarily analytical and open minded about new plays and how he failed or got outplayed in situations - he sees every defeat or bad moment for him as an opportunity to learn from and be prepared for next time.
Tru3’s stubbornness and ego means he has a ceiling on how much he’s willing to acknowledge and learn from. Otz seems much more of an open book, and knows the game and survivor counters far better as a consequence.
Fun > Sweating like a lame
Be careful you said people who know how to play against Nurse you're going to hurt the whiners feelings who constantly cry she is broken
I’m very late but if I had to guess
True experiment is can u win by just going for hooks no , slugs or camping or ect
Where ots is doing the opposite playing the most aggressive as possible to see if u win
The average player isn’t coming on the game to sweat to slug , proxy at 4/5 gens and ect ect they want to go for chases
Both parties had 2 vastly different experiments
Your saying that true didn’t want to actually challenge his perspective u would also half to use the same argument for otz as well , if both of them flipped and did each other experiment how they where both sides would get different results
So both sides r being disingenuous and not actually challenging there perspective
Even if the game is balanced when you camp tunnel and everything its less fun playing killer like that than survivor
This holds up today too. All these videos watching and judging killer play. They will say well you should have went back to the gen because bla bla. No if you play more savage you will win more.
I genuinely like tru3, he can be funny and his accent is intoxicating.
The thing that bothers me about him is that he's quite delusional about his own skill level. He thinks he's a lot better player than he is. I've watched him play dbd for a very long time.
I would say he's a pretty good survivor but a mediocre killer.
So he ends up having some really bad takes on balance because of this.
Good guy though.
Oh yeah, suuuuper mediocre killer. He'll spend 5 minutes trying to mindgame a really safe pallet and not just kicking the pallet. He mindgames too much and he's above average MMR at most
I love Otz out of context
Good video!
See I agree I don’t think otz wanted to play as scummy as possible he did it for science. True didn’t play to actually try and see if it worked. The problem is I feel the devs are trying to balance the game based off people playing nice (I don’t say fair because everything is fair if you’re not cheating) I don’t want to say true didn’t try and was on purpose trying to skew the results but everyone else I saw try this challenge did better than true proves he didn’t play well
do you have the link to tru3"s nurse game? I can't find it through a search
I updated the description with links to both creator's videos, sorry about that!
@@KillaWhale Thanks bud. No worries, you got back to me in 24 minutes Lolol
Where can I watch Tru3’s nurse game?
Tru3 having a vpn and Razer Ad in the top center of his stream at all times is probably the most cringe thing he’s done, and that’s saying a lot for him.
yea true isnt really a thinker. especially with him saying lethal pursuer needs to add an exposed status effect for the first minute of that game lmaooo
great video
Against a comp team... 1 K max for either of them, With every killer in the current meta. Never 2k. Perkless no addons is cute for randoms... But not serious gameplay
Doesn't matter what either of their demeanors or purpose for the challenge was, These games were mostly against casuals, Who mostly were all doing random casual things. Tru3 got SWFs that were wild a few times, But if it had been comp teams against these 2, No dice. Probably 0.1K average