The mystery behind Sonic 2's Soundtrack
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2022
- In this video, I present a theory that shows the Sonic 2 soundtrack, as we know it, was made for the original game plan of Sonic 2, when it had Time Travel. I show how it's possible that the Sky Chase music was composed for a cut level, known as Rock Zone. I also tried to find connections between the Concept Art Pieces, Prototypes, and Interviews.
Credits:
Thanks to Airrel for helping me with the script, video format, and English
ChilliusVGM for the Sonic Mania gameplay and helping with English
OKayDoKay for helping fixing English errors
Moola for checking if the Sky Chase sheet was correct
Airrel is a very talented game developer, check his amazing work:
airrel.blogspot.com/
/ artcielofficial
ChilliusVGM, OKayDoKay and Moola are very talented musicians, check out their amazing work:
/ chilliusvgm
/ @e3kay324
/ @moolamixtape
Links:
Hirokazu Yasuhara talk - • Hirokazu Yasuhara - Ho...
Brenda Ross interview - www.sonicdatabase.com/
Sonic & Knuckles Mushroom Hill Concept art - info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_%26...
Sonic 2 Concept arts and documents - info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the...
Sonic 2 art disks - megabitesblog.wordpress.com/2...
Banper concept art translation - info.sonicretro.org/File:Sket_... 
Видеоклипы
I'm not a English speaker and this is my first talked video, I did my best to try to make the pronunciation as clear as possible, yet if there's something hard to understand, i'm sorry! I added subtitles, so you can read if it's hard to understand.
Should I use my voice again in future videos? Or is text better?
Use your voice because it's more interesting than static text
Do both
(I don't wanna sound mean) I like the text better
You should keep using your voice
I will admit, it was a little hard to understand for some sentences or words so I did have to use subs. But don't be discouraged! Doing voice overs for your videos can be great practice.
I see someone already mentioned the 1994 pronunciation but there's also "Wind" that was miss pronounced like "Wind" as in wind-up toy rather than the actual weather. It should be pronounced like "Win" but with a slight "duh" sound at the end.
Practice makes perfect!
I always found it odd that Sky Chase had such chill song for a, well, chase. So the idea that it was originally ment for an ice level makes SO much sense.
Yeah! I believe putting this song in Sky Chase was a idea they had near to the release of the game. I think the snowy sound design worked for a cloudy level, and the 4 note sequence is also common in clocks, so some places of the world has really tall clocks, I think that's how they had the idea of recycling this song in Sky Chase level!
Same,even if there wasn’t any context regarding a hypothetical level,the music just feels way too chill and calm for what is supposed to be a chase.
You know, i thought this theme is well- suitable for weather forecast
Wow, I embarrassingly never picked up on Sky Chase using this Christmas motif before.
Then you played it with the snow image and it instantly clicked! It makes so much sense as a snow-themed level!
That had to be my favorite part of the video.
I've been listening to this for decades and not once realized it. Very impressive.
It makes a lot of sense, my brother and I used to laugh as kids because the music sounded out of place for Sky Chase. Knowing the music was meant for an aesthetically peaceful snow level makes a lot of sense.
Another thing that adds to your Sand Shower theory is that many gimmicks of Oil Ocean are similar to ones in dessert levels. The oil acts like quicksand, and there are sections where you are carried by a stream of oil down a tube. Almost like a sand shower. Sorry for the late reply.
True but Labyrinth also has the water slide gimmick, which is now this twisted counterpart as its now oil
I keep finding you everywhere
@@thepurpleblurr and what are the odds that my dumbass is literally up trying to kill a mosquito at 4:am and happened to check youtube notifs
Brenda Ross and Craig stitt both claimed that oil. Ocean and sand shower (sabaku) are not connected in an way
Funnily enough, some mechanics from Oil Ocean were reused in Sandopolis from Sonic 3&K, which you probably realized by the name that it's related to the desert, like the sand acting as quicksand, just like the oil in Oil Ocean, and the tubes, like some parts in Sandopolis where you are carried by sand tubes through the zone.
Watching this video has actually made me look at the Sonic 2 soundtrack in a completely different way now.
Especially Sky Chase Zone's song. I personally don't care for that song but understanding now that it was meant for a snow level makes me appreciate the song more in that specific context. As soon as you overlayed the concept art with the song, my brain immediately went, "Oh yeah, this IS a snow level song!"
I feel the same way for Aquatic Ruin. Now that I notice that western desert whistle, it just feels different
I know how you feel! Before Yasuhara revealed the Maps, I had never though about Sky Chase being a ice zone music, and nowdays is impossible for me to not hear it when the song plays
It makes so much sense now, notice how some levels like Hilltop Zone, Aquatic Ruins or Hidden Palace have dinosaurs as enemies. They all fit the theme of being set in the past
Collision Chaos Radio! You helped The Video Game History Foundation get in contact with Brenda Ross which is how they got their hands on the actual mock-up of Winter Zone! After all these years we finally know what it would have looked like if it was actually included in Sonic 2 thanks to you!
I was absolutely shocked when they mentioned your name and it now means that you made history in terms of finding the original Sonic 2 concepts. I am so glad that you have been a great part of this community, thank you so much for answering my questions and letting me share my ideas and thank you for letting others too. I can’t wait to see your next project.
You are a real legend Collision Chaos Radio 🎉
Oh wow, thank you for such a nice comment, I appreciate it a lot! I'm very happy with everything that has been found. The christmas tree looks so cool, i love how they seems inspired in early CGI
@@CollisionChaos I agree they do look very festive, the fact that they found this just before Christmas was such great timing 🎄
It’s crazy just how much more ambitious the original plan for sonic 2 was compared to what actually ended up happening. Obviously time was a big part of why the original plan never finished, but knowing all this I’m curious as to why certain zones like Aquatic Ruin and Sky Chase replaced the existing concepts for zones. Were those ideas just found to be more interesting?
I belive in some cases they were recycling assets or levels from the original plan, but with a different purpose. Casino Night for example became a normal casino level. The song was changed to sounds happier, and "Sonic" and "Tails" details were added all over the level, while in the original it was supposed to be a "less happy" level from the same world as Chemical Plant and Genocide City.
In other cases such as the Sky Chase level, I believe it was what was possible to do in time to finish the game. The ice level probably would have snow, falling snow, enemies coming from the snow, slippery floors maybe, and the desert would have moving sand, underground parts, etc. All of that is complex to design. Sky Chase level in comparison has a much simpler game design, where you're on an air plane and can jump and move basically. I think they were trying to come with simpler ideas that were good to play and at same time could be done in time to finish the game.
I actually belive (if i recall correctly) that the zones from the final act of the game (Metropolis act 3, sky chase and wing fortress) were added because they would be easier to finish in time and they added some variation in level themes compered to the rest of the game, not sure tho
I'd think a big reason the time travel theme was scrapped was because Sonic CD ended up running with it first. So they decided not to retread on that.
Then they decided they had to pick stages to scrap due to time and space limitations. (Which would plague them later on with Sonic 3. There's even remnants of all the & Knuckles stages in the final version of Sonic 3.)
@@tofffe sonic cd originally wasnt planned so that cant be the reason why
@@metashy344 What if Wing Fortress actually used recolored assets and ideas from the original longer version of Death Egg?
(i know im 1 year late but who cares)
Keep in mind that time travel was dropped before development actually began, and it's very likely the island maps we have aren't the "finalized" versions of the original planned level order. The actual zone order as it was in the Simon Wai prototype does have some key differences.
The "past" levels seem to have been rearranged at some point. Hill Top being in slot 07 and the Emerald Hill 2P music being assigned to slot 06 tells me the order was changed to Blue Lake -> Tropical Plant -> Hill Top after those maps were made. Not to mention the removal of the duplicate "Rock World".
"Neo Green Hill" was probably further developed from "Genocide City II", as the word "Neo" certainly implies a level taking place in the future.
Lastly, I'd argue that "Dust Hill" and "Neo Green Hill" were conceived during the time travel era as variations on Emerald Hill (like Hill Top), and those concepts were reworked when time travel was dropped to add a little more variety into the zone lineup. (not to mention having less Emerald Hill clones, one of them is enough already)
Thank you for your comment! I don't think we have an official document that confirms the time travel was dropped before the development began. We have a concept art that shows some of the levels connected in time travel would share objects, and in the early prototype the Emerald Hill and Hill Top indeed share the trampoline. There's even a snail that was made for Hill Top, which seems to be a reference to Emerald Hill snail too. Hill Top and Hidden Palace also have dinossaur enemies, which seems to have been made to fit with the ancient times, since both levels are from past. I believe the Rock World was duplicated later, because in one of the documents, we have a level order that has 2 different pasts (Ancient Times and Medieval Times), and we get two Hill Tops, two Blue (which i suppose one was Blue Ocean and other Blue Lake) and two Death Eggs, but not two Rock Worlds neither two Genocide Cities. But when the island maps were made, it looks like the medieval time was cut. The duplicates of Death Egg, Hill Top and Blue Lake were cut, and instead we got a Rock World duplicate and a second Genocide City, which explains there's not apparent leftovers of a second Hill Top, a second Blue Lake and neither a second Death Egg.
Considering how Hill Top and Emerald Hill share the tileset, how the ice level and desert level share the tileset, and how they were supposed to share some of the objects and these objects were made, and how the Sonic 2 beta internal level order fits with the island maps for most part, and considering how the island maps are from the original game plan with the time travel, I personally don't believe the time travel idea was scrapped before the development started.
Makes sense for the Neo Green Hill part, Sonic 3 concept arts call Carnival Night as "Neon", which means CNZ is probably a reused Cyber City 2/Neo Green Hill!
@@CollisionChaos What's interesting to note is that the original Zone order seems to get muddied after Hill Top. The first map has a clearly defined order marked by arrows: Green Hill -> Ocean Wind -> Wood(s) -> Sand Shower -> Metropolis -> "Warp Point" (which likely wasn't intended to be a playable stage, but more likely some sort of cutscene). Incidentally this lines up perfectly with the internal Zone IDs assuming 01 was intended to be Ocean Wind, which there's no reason to believe it wasn't. Starting with the second map, however, the level order becomes muddier; it only has arrows pointing to a zone order of "Warp Point" -> Tropical Plant -> Hill Top, after which the arrows disappear and the rest is left up to interpretation.
As far as the level order and overall plot is concerned, based on the maps we have, this is my interpretation of how it might have gone:
Sonic starts at Green Hill Zone (obvs), then works his way through Ocean Wind (likely some sort of beach/coastal-themed stage based on its name and position on the map), Wood(s), Sand Shower, and ends at Robotnik's new fortress in Metropolis, all in what is essentially an abridged retread of Sonic 1's story. Sonic manages to defeat Robotnik... or so he thinks, right up until "Robotnik" turns out to be a fake. As it turns out, the entire ordeal up to this point was a distraction to keep Sonic occupied while the _real_ Robotnik, having discovered a means of time travel within some nearby ancient ruins, goes to the past with the intent of altering it so that he rules the future. Sonic gives chase through this "warp point", from there traveling through Tropical Plant (likely some kind of rainforest or jungle stage), Hill Top, and Blue Lake, the latter of which I believe to be what ultimately became Hidden Palace due to the map placing the Zone in the mountains, the Zone itself having water (indicating that the lake in question was likely of the underground variety), and the fact that this aligns with its placement in the level order. From there, a cutscene takes place in "Olympus" in which Robotnik discovers a means of traveling through time whenever and wherever he pleases. Sonic finally catches up with him here and chases him to Rock World, where Robotnik manages to escape to the future while sending Sonic to the "ruined present" resulting from Robotnik's meddling in the past. Sonic goes through this version of Rock World, then through Oil Ocean and finally Dust Hill, from which Sonic enters the buried ruins of Olympus and travels to the future himself. He emerges in Casino Night Zone, into a world which Robotnik has successfully conquered due to Sonic not being around to foil his plans. He goes through Casino Night, Chemical Plant, and both Genocide Cities before confronting Robotnik on his newly built Death Egg, which he plans on taking back to the far past in order to rule all of time (think something similar to the Black Omen from Chrono Trigger). Sonic foils his plans, travels back to the far past himself, and undoes the damage Robotnik has caused, thus restoring peace to the timeline.
So where does the level order fit into this, you ask?
00 - Green Hill
01 - Ocean Wind
02 - Wood(s)
03 - Sand Shower
04 - Metropolis
05 - Utilized for cutscenes, with "Act 1" being the Warp Point cutscene and "Act 2" being the Olympus cutscene
06 - Tropical Plant
07 - Hill Top
08 - Blue Lake (Hidden Palace)
09 - Rock World
0A - Oil Ocean
0B - Dust Hill (Mystic Cave)
0C - Casino Night
0D - Chemical Plant
0E - Genocide City 1
0F - Genocide City 2 (likely a placeholder name - based on the plot above, it could very well have been a precursor to Launch Base)
10 - Death Egg
Now, IMO there are at least three things pointing to this concept having already been abandoned by the time the Simon Wai build was put together:
1. Genocide City (1) had been repurposed into Metropolis Act 3, which took over the slot originally reserved for cutscenes
2. "Genocide City 2" was replaced with Neo Green Hill/Aquatic Ruin, a Zone found nowhere in the original design docs and whose "ancient flooded ruins" theme runs completely contrary to the original plot based on its placement.
3. Blue Lake had been retooled into Hidden Palace, with its purpose being altered to cater specifically to the post-time travel plot.
But that's just my two cents.
@@MisterVercetti Thank you for your comment! I actually think there's a chance the Metropolis could be the Warp Point, because if you compare the maps, the Warp Point seems to be at the same position as Genocide City, and there's one or two concept arts that connects Metropolis with Genocide City! The plan mentions a time machine, so maybe there would be a time machine in Metropolis, or Metropolis was a big time machine, it could explain all the wheels and stuff
And your theory about how the events were planned is pretty interesting, thank you for sharing!
I really think is possible the zone we know as Hidden Palace to have been originally Blue Lake, because what you said! the place is on a mountain with rocks and waterfalls, I can totally imagine this zone inside that mountain! That to not say how Sonic and Knuckles recycle stuff from Sonic 2, by comparing it with the early picture from the magazines, i really think is possible Lava Reef was recycled from Sonic 2 Hidden Palace, and in top of lava reef there's a Death Egg, pretty much like there's a sphere in the top of Blue Lake mountain
@@MisterVercetti I love this theory, however I disagree with you on Blue Lake becoming Hidden Palace. There's a document that says "Sonic travels to ancient tim activating Hidden". While some of this sentence is cut off, I deduce that the full sentence is "Sonic travels back to ancient times by activating the emerald in Hidden Palace", meaning that Hidden Palace was the original name of the time travel zone, but for whatever reason they called it Olympus on the level map concept arts.
This is such an amazing theory, you using the musical cues from the music as evidence was the best part too, it connected up so many things
I'm glad you liked :)
This is actually crazy. I'm pretty sure some people had the same idea, but they had zero idea on how to actually get the message through. Since you know what you're doing because you've toyed with Genesis music for years, you're able to use the music channels to your advantage to help get your point across.
You did a fantastic job. Hope to see more soon.
Thank you!
I never picked up on that Metropolis Mushroom Hill similarity (that blew my mind.) Great video btw was very interesting considering how little info we have about Sonic 2’s time travel elements.
Thank you :D
After watching this I went back to Masa's Demos, and it is extremely clear that Aquatic Ruin is intended as a Wild West zone, and Sky Chase as a winter zone, due to the very specific instrumentation that he chooses. It's been sitting under my nose the whole time...
Right? Is so cool how these demos give hints about the original purpose of the songs! I wonder if one day these demos originally had the original names of the levels where they would play
The more I learn about sonic 2's development the more mysterious it seems. This was a great video, I hope you make more like it.
Thank you!
Sonic 3 is even more mysterious, we don’t have screenshots of anything older than the proto we have and significantly less concept art
It is kinda strange that both sonic 1 and 2 have tons of concept art public yet little to none for sonic 3.
@@Dallas_Kong Sega screwed over a bunch of composers who worked on the Knuckles saga, that was the hypothesis for Sega‘s newfound hesitation to touch Sonic 3 (the game wasn't getting ports recently in contrast to its prequels). What if they did the same thing to the artists? Maybe it's all been taken care of now since Origins contains S3+K.
@@Dallas_Kong Maybe many or mostly of Sonic 3 concept arts are recycled from Sonic 2
I always found it rather odd that the 2P mode changes up the music for Emerald Hill Zone, Casino Night and Mystic Cave. So, the reason for that is because those tracks were actually written for all those cut levels. The devs probably decided later on that they didn't want to just scrap those compositions because they were already programmed into the game. Hence, they just decided to make those songs appear in 2P mode.
It seems like when Sonic games were developed, the dev's always began working on the music first and foremost. In fact, this is super obvious in Sonic 3, where you can actually hear the entire Sonic & Knuckles soundtrack in standalone Sonic 3-- even while all those zones were cut from the game. My guess is, music was probably one of the harder things to remove from the game, so the devs just do the best they can to avoid having to do that.
Yeah, it's pretty cool how they tried to use the musics somewhere. The Christmas song recycled into Sky Chase was geniously, and probably made very near to the game release. I believe it happened because the snowy sound design, which end up fitting for a cloudy level, since there's a similar look between clouds and snow. Plus the Christmas bell sequence, which is also the same as "clock sequence". In some places of world there are clocks can be really tall, which probably gave them the idea of using it for a level that happens on a high place. I believe they almost let this song as unused in the soundtest, just like the song 10, if they did not comes with this idea!
This is further supported in Sonic CD where we now know that most of the music was written first, including the Past tracks, and then cut back later to save on space on the CD.
i played sonic from such a young age that i built my music contexts based around the levels, this video breaks that lifelong bond between the levels and explains so much more, great vid
Thank you!!
Wood Zone using Metropolis' music is simply a leftover from Sonic 1's IDs. The Simon Wai prototype used ID 83 for it's music slot, and its zone slot is 03. The exact same can be said for Marble Zone in Sonic 1. Music 83, ID 03.
Actually, Wood Zone and Marble Zone are in slot 02, but the overall concept still fits. It also explains why Level ID 01 plays Emerald Hill's music: 01 was Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1, and Emerald Hill's music occupies track 82, the same slot as LZ's music in S1.
I do have a theory of my own regarding Wood Zone, however. I believe it was intended to play what would eventually become the Emerald Hill 2P theme, but ended up getting stuck with Metropolis Zone's theme either through the devs never getting around to updating the Sonic 1 music pointer for its level ID, or as the result of a simple typo: Metropolis's music occupies Track 83 in Simon Wai, whereas Emerald Hill 2P is Track 93, a single digit off. This is further evidenced by the Sonic 2 credits medley: nearly all of the tracks sampled there were used in various stages in Simon Wai, hence why you get all of the 2P themes in it (Oil Ocean originally used Casino Night 2P's theme, while Hidden Palace used Mystic Cave 2P's track), but Oil Ocean, Sky Chase, Wing Fortress, and Death Egg - all stages which either didn't exist or, in Oil Ocean's case, used a different track in Simon Wai - are all notably absent. The sole exception to this rule is Emerald Hill 2P: it plays in the credits medley, but is nowhere to be found in any developed Zone in Simon Wai. This indicates that this track was supposed to play in a Zone that, as of the Wai build, was intended to be in the game. The only Zone that fits the bill is Wood Zone.
Going back to the "leftover music pointers from Sonic 1" discussion: assuming this is true, it lends credence to the theory that Sand Shower Zone may have actually seen some form of work done to it early in Sonic 2's development cycle. Continuing with the "leftovers from Sonic 1" music theory, Level ID 03, which belonged to Star Light Zone in Sonic 1 and is completely empty in all builds of Sonic 2 except for Nick Arcade, should theoretically play track 84 - which, in the Simon Wai build, is Casino Night's music. Yet it instead plays either Track 90 or 91, indicating that it was the result of a conscious decision, rather than simply being a Sonic 1 leftover like with IDs 01 and 02. Incidentally, Track 90/91 would go on to become Oil Ocean's theme - a track with a decidedly desert-ish feel to it. It's also not out of the realm of possibility that the level had a small amount of work done to it, but was scrapped before Simon Wai, resulting in an empty level slot - after all, we've heard countless times that Genocide/Cyber City Zone was repurposed into Metropolis Zone Act 3, yet in Wai its intended level slot remains, also completely empty, even as MZ3 already exists in a completely different level slot in that same build. This suggests that GCZ may have once existed in ID 0E, the slot originally intended for it, before the data that they had was ported over to ID 05, used solely for MZ3, and the data for 0E was completely purged. If they could wipe all traces of GCZ from ID 0E by the time Simon Wai came around, then the same could have easily happened to SSZ in ID 03.
@@MisterVercetti Interesting 🤔
14:14
That is still very interesting, because on the concept art of Sonic 2 Death Egg Zone, you can actually see a background from the Sonic 3 (That zone was recycled to Death Egg Zone in the Sonic 3, I guess!), which is a very cool clue, we have a familiar situation with the concept-art of the Sonic 3 Mushroom Hill Zone, and Wood Zone from the Sonic 2 Beta (14:41)
There's one obvious little thing that makes more sense visually rather than musically: Neo Green Hill/Aquatic Ruin is the "missing" Olympus. But as soon as you started connecting the dots, I heard the western trill in the music right before you mentioned it, and I'd never actually recognized it as such before. They definitely recycled a lot of different things and tweaked a lot to make it all fit together in those short few months they had to crunch this game out.
This is quite possibly one of the most interesting videos I've ever stumbled across, honestly this makes so much sense, and it all sounds so cool, I almost wish someone would make a version of Sonic 2 that has the time travel premise that was originally intended.
Thank you so much ^^
I've always had a suspicion that the city in the background of Chemical Plant was Genocide City and the map may also suggest that too! Fascinating stuff.
I’ve always thought that Oil Ocean sounded like a desert level, and it is interesting to think about whether it was the original track for dust hill zone.
when sand shower's mock up image appeared with oil ocean's music it sent a complete chill down my spine, it felt so genuinely unsettling and i don't know why
Ikr. When the snow level’s image showed up with the sky chase theme it made me a bit emotional
@@LunaticLimbo nah bro, that sand shower pic made me feel like i was gonna be killed hours after seeing something i was not meant to
Cool video; although, I should mention that concept art mentions a "Hidden Shrine", and Yasuhara himself identified Olympus as "The Shrine", so it's likely that Olympus was just an early name for HPZ.
Also, Metropolis didn't have 3 acts early on, so $05 would've been Tropical Plant, and $06 would've been Blue Ocean (suggesting TPZ was scrapped early enough for its song, if it even had on, to not be implemented in-game; same applies to OWZ, while WZ uses the same music ID as HPZ in the Nick Arcade build).
I'm hoping one day we will finally get to see the Hidden Palace concept art, I think it could help a lot understand it. Thank you for the comment :D
I found another theory that explains well many things and backs this theory around the music, but not in the same way. It's well known that there was a serious language barrier in the team between the japaneses, in leading roles, and the americans, and this lead to some problems and confusions. This theory would be that Masato Nakamura, being japanese in the charge of music, would understand better the directions than Brenda Ross, american in charge of art; for this reason the designers would be expecting an arab desert and got arab-like music, but the level looked like an american western desert. This is exactly the same reason that Craig Stitt explained to be why Hidden Palace was stopped and dropped in the very last moment: he was tasked a majestic underground level but didn't understand exactly a palace itself, which was what the japaneses were expecting as we saw in Sonic & Knuckles, and he went with a cave, but they liked the level a lot and wanted to make it work but left it for the last to be fixed, which in the end wasn't possible, so his art for Hidden Palace (and Cyber City, btw) got reused for Sonic Spinball. This theory would explain colaterally why the rock, desert and winter zones were dropped completely: because of this confusion these levels would not be what designers were expecting and when time started to be short, they cut them right away. Yuji Naka said in an interview that many of the things that had to be cut down were corrected and introduced in Soinc 3 (& Knuckles) like Hidden Palace, now being a palace, and we got Sandopolis, which is an arab desert.
The part explained in 11:36, with all respect, sounds weak to me: that sequence of notes matches the western movies whistle, true, but is also the Tarzan shout and the whole theme has a jungle vibe, for a jungle level. Trying to fit that just because of that trope... I'm not convinced. But I think this goes in the right direction.
That's a very interesting theory, thank you for sharing!
About Sand Shower, I'm pretty sure I played at least one japanese game that does this kind of thing like using a western styled song for a arab desert, so i'm not sure if that would really be a problem, I personally think the song fits well for the level, and at least 3 persons who worked on the game (art director, chief artist and designer) confirmed the level was cut because lack of time to finish the game design for it. We also don't have confirmation if the songs were based in description, mockups or concept arts. I don't think it would be impossible if Masato Nakamura simply got a overall description of the level like "Desert with moving sand, cactus, mountains".
Also, if i'm not wrong, Tarzan was released in 1999, so it could not have be a influence for the Aquatic Ruins music (1992).
About the Hidden Palace underground/palace theme, do you know the source of this? I have heard other people talking about it but i never could find on which interview it was said about it, i would love to read more about it!
This is so interesting and it blew me away to be honest, i thought that the development of this game was understood to near perfection, but stuff like this actually inspires me to do my own research and to listen to other theories more often (i actually saw a comment in another video pointing out that Emerald Hill 2p was made for a tropical level [whit no source], but i ignore it and thought it was silly)
Really solid theory.
This game still has some mystery aura to its development after all.
Thank you! Sometimes this game feels like a never ending fountain of misteries. When you think we know everything, someone who worked on it just release a lot of unseen stuff
Heh it may have been me who made that comment. There’s a lot left to discover in this game, we have a significant amount of missing protos between Nick Arcade and Simon Wai. The Japanese developers trashed a lot of the Americans’ work because they were nationalist pricks, probably didn’t bother archiving it either.
@@protocetid Thank you for your comment! I saw this theory before about the japaneses members of the team not liking the americna levels, but it don't make sense for me with the current info we have and the current amount of interviews we have. 3 people who worked on the game (one american and two japaneses) said the levels were cut because no time to finish the game design. By looking into the prototypes, I believe they were saying the truth. A great example is Death Egg, if you check the prototypes, the planet background was only added to the level tileset near to the final version, and the chief artist confirmed Death Egg would be a much longer zone, that's why the concept art was so different from the level we got. Also, every american artist was interviewed, none ever mentioned levels such as Death Egg, Tropical Plant and Ocean Wind, so i guess they were made or would be made by japanese artists, yet they got cut as well. The team proportion difference between artist x game designer was too big. It was 6 level artists for one game designer, so that makes sense why we have more arts than ingame levels, since in order to get a level finished you need the art and the game design for it. Some of the levels that was added later such as Sky Chase seems to have been simpler designed levels, just because they could not have enough time to finish the game design for all of them. We also have some details about some of the cut levels such as the desert and ice, and they were too complex to design, such as enemies coming from sand, moving sand, underground parts, etc. So i can understand. Hirokazu Yasuhara and Yasuchi Yamaguchi also confirmed the problem was lack to finish the game design, and they also said if the team had more time all the levels would be in the final game, including the ones made by the americans. Like, what call my attention in this case is that they 3 told the same version, and they were interviewd in different years. I personally think if they were lying, at least one would come with a contradictory version.
@@CollisionChaos Could’ve sworn one of the ex employees who worked Sonic 2 outright stated the Japanese looked at down on anything not created by people from their country. Couldn’t find a quote where it was explicitly stated, I did find these which certainly show the Japanese devs were not friendly:
“My only complaint was that if art had to get cut out it always seemed to be the American's on the team who's art got cut. Sometimes this was because the art wasn't working, but on other occasions, I don't believe this was the case (such as with Hidden Palace, although I never was happy with the far background).”
- Craig Stitt
“The tension between the Japanese and American staff was a primary reason for Cerny's departure; he felt the Americans were not treated respectfully by the Japanese.”
Second is from Wikipedia and is cited. IDK if a Japanese company has ever acknowledged and apologized over its jingoistic attitude. That’s not something the country likes to do. There’s more anecdotes from people working for Nintendo, they were making a Wii game called Project H.A.M.M.E.R. Same deal, their work and feedback were not respected because they were not Japanese. Contrary to Japan’s image as a polite and honorable country their chauvinism has caused them to commit several war crimes throughout history which they refuse to properly acknowledge or do penance. They don’t get called out for it nearly enough.
On a lighter note there’s another part of the Wikipedia page that should interest you, saw in another comment this is something you dream of. “According to Yasuhara, most level cuts were due to time constraints and he had been upset by each of them. In 2017, he said he wanted to remake Sonic 2 with the cut content restored.”
@@protocetid My goodness, these comments have a lot of interesting information 😳
It would have been cool if most of the original concept arts zones for Sonic The Hedgehog 2 had been used during the development of Sonic Mania, but SEGA management came in and said "No, let's put Green Hill, Chemical Plant and stuff in here for nostalgia.". As a result, we received only 5 unique new zones out of 14 (some of which unfortunately have old bosses), Studiopolis, Press Garden, Mirage Saloon, Titanic Monarch, Egg Reverie.
I don't know much about Sonic Mania development, but I wish we could get a official Sonic 2 remake with all the original plan back to the game. I'm not sure if they could do that, because I think some things were not even designed (like some bosses for the cut zones). There's a official release of Sonic 2 with Hidden Palace, with new parts of layout, boss, new enemies. And everything that was new (or added) don't feel like something that the Sonic 2 team would do IMO. So I kinda can understand. That would be cool if they bring together again the original team, or at least some of the most important members such as Hirokazu, Yasuchi, Brenda, Jina, Craig, Rieko, Tom etc to redo the game with the original plan. But chances of it happening are... bellow zero i believe :'(
Mirage Saloon was based off of Desert Dazzle and Sand Shower.
As crazy as it sounds i think genocide city zone became the wing fortress zone
This is amazing. I'm a firm believer that Aquatic Ruin Zone's music was originally intended to be the Desert Zone's theme due to the 'Good, Bad & the Ugly' whistle motif being used.
OHHH I never would've connected that Sky Chase was originally an ice level. I think there was a video a long long time ago (like pre-2013) that mentioned it but I didn't connect it until now. Great video!
Thank you a lot :D
about the thing you said at the end, you may know about that unused "Club Scene" music, maybe the levels with reused music just didnt have one that fitted them yet?
also amazing video, this exploded my mind
That's a interesting theory! I heard it, but I never could understand how would it be used. I think we don't know exactly when it was made, if it was after or before the Sonic 2 was already planned with the level concept arts ready. I myself can't imagine a level where it would have been used, feels like some kind of cutscene music, is kinda similar to Knuckles Chaotix "Child's Song".
If me and Yamaguchi can remember at our best i think we purged all cut levels and some of them were repurposed keep in mind that Sonic concepts zones were supposed to look diffrent before being finalized in later prototypes its possible if we planned aquactic ruin to be future version of sand shower since when we dropped time travel and purged all levels exept emerald hill , oil ocean, metropolis ,.
This was amazing! Especially using certain music cues to connect certain songs with stages
Thank you!
Looks like Sonic and Time Travel was near-always wanted in some capacity.. and so weirdly enough, AOSTH gave us a form of Sonic 2 and Time Travel.
This explains why water on Hill Top's blocks end up orange.
Another footnote: Even SatAM had time travel and has a Back to the Future-like leitmotif.
That was a really cool video. I knew that Sonic 2 had time travel as a planned feature, but had no idea that there are so many zones in the full game that essentially were just past/future versions of other zones.
Thank you!
The "Whistle" being in neo green hill zone is so obvious yet something I would've never thought of before this video. Amazing stuff!
Thank you
Dude! I heard your name dropped on video game history foundation sonic 2 video. Just so you know I love this video so much
This is a interesting theory to discuss about especially the idea that rock world past is the winter zone that went unused and the music for sky chase that was placed for rock world fits very well with the winter zone
I have theory's for some of these zones
Ocean wind : this was used in concept art however I actually found a music that fits with the stage itself (the 2p results theme)
wood zone : there isn't anything that hasn't been said with this zone
Sand shower zone : the music intended for the zone matched an Arabic desert however looking at the mockup it looks more like a western style desert zone leaving me to believe that the neo green hill theme was a 2nd option
Tropical plant : like you said emerald hill 2p fits with this zone especially the fact that the concept art looks somewhat similar to emerald hill
blue lake zone : the hidden palace zone was actually originally intended for a normal stage but someone liked it so much that it became the infamous hidden palace zone and it does fit since the name blue lake is set on the mountains
Rock world past : I've already talked about this
Rock world ruined present : well this is a issue on one hand this was probably mystic cave but on the other it was actually a different zone entirely since there is a mountain set to where the name is, also around the mountain there is some ground that isn't grassy
Dust hill zone : this is almost confirmed to be the mystic cave zone , but it could be another zone entirely since in dust hill there are no tree's and a chunk of green hill from the good present has been removed
Genocide city : just like with wood zone there isn't anything to be said
Now there is also the medieval time and another map showcasing what happened to the past after a big tsunami leaving hill top , blue lake , and tropical (not plant) summer zone , there is a stage in the concept art called madness mountain and is no where to be seen in the timeline maps leading me to believe it is apart of the medieval time but then there is another stage that can fit in both categories and that being aquatic ruin / neo green hill which is relating to the Olympus zone which was supposed to be a hidden shrine but after the big tsunami it vanishes along with rock world past , however in my opinion I think the duplicate hill top could be an option for neo green hill because its ruined and it also falls in the hill category just like with green hill and dust hill , about the duplicate blue lake though the concept art does show being called blue ocean and we know that after the big tsunami blue lake is more like is more like around the ocean now and we also get to see ruined pillars in the concept art and of course some caves. if you are reading this let me know what you think on this subject
I've always loved the western bit in ARZs music, I never connected that it may actually have been intended for another zone! and Dust Hill being another hill top zone style EHZ clone, just makes so much sense!
Thank you for your comment! Yeah, and the demo versions of the songs seems to give some hints about the original purpose of them! The whistle thing in Aquatic Ruins is even one octave higher in the demo, which makes it even more similar to how they usually do in desert songs
The scrapped Sonic stuff i really want are Wood Zone, Genocide City Zone, Egg Janken boss, R2, and Desert Dazzle
Very interesting video! When playing Sonic 2 as a kid, I had a lot of confusion while listening to the soundtrack and playing the levels, as I always felt that some songs would fit better in other settings, rather than in the ones they were used in the final release. Thanks you for making this !!
Thank you so much, i'm glad you liked the video!
Exactly. At one point while playing through Sonic 2 on mobile, I'd thought that Christian Whitehead had accidentally swapped Oil Ocean and Hidden Palace's themes because Oil Ocean's theme made more sense for a palace than Mystic Cave 2P, especially when hearing them one after the other.
Damn you just blew my mind 50 times over.
Thank you!
I think I know how to explain the 2 Rock Worlds problem.
The Rock World in the past is the one which is the winter level (like you said) but it has a different name. I looked closely at the winter zone concept art from the MTV promo video (at 6:36 in this video) and you can clearly read the first word in the bottom right corner - Snow. The rest is too blurry to read but at least we know the zone would have a different name. Also, the Past timezone map has a large mountain with (probably) snow on it near the Rock World Zone bracket.
The Rock World in the ruined present is the true Rock World Zone and it is the zone that uses Aquatic Ruin's music (so it's the probable second desert zone). That leaves Dust Hill as Mystic Cave and the problem is solved.
Also I would like to mention that I think Olympus was changed to Hidden Palace but it would take place after the winter zone and the music for Wood Zone would be the one used for Competition Results in the final game. And yes, Masa's Demos really help with picturing all zones with their originally intended music.
I think that the Snow Level wasn't in the plans when they created the map, and the two Rock Worlds are just to show where the time travel would happen, the same way Warp Point is also in two of the maps, because in the documents they always say "rock zone" like if there was only one
When Masa created the music for the zones, some of the zones on the map were already changed or cut, maybe that was when things like Hidden Palace (that was probably meant to be Rock Zone) was changed to be Hidden Palace (that was supposed to be Olympus or Emerald Isle, the Island where the emeralds were, like the altar on Sonic Adventure) and the Snow Level was added in its place as rock zone
I think if we had more concept art of the zones or at least a high definition concept art for the ice level these questions could finally be solved.
I remember looking at the last letter and thinking “mountain?” While squinting my eyes as much as possible and then I looked at a website that had scrapped sonic 3 things and it included this and claimed it was an early ice cap zone. And while I don’t agree about that (due to ice cap zone being day, there being no Christmas trees present and the developer said that the cut level had Christmas trees) I do agree with the name “Snow covered Mountain”
@@joewilliams-un8vu Sonic 3 concept art has ICZ with snowmans and Christmas tree-like trees on the bg, pretty much the same as the S2 snow mountain level.
I just can't agree with Mystic Cave being Dust Hill, like where the hell is the dust or the hills in the zone, lol. This was probably a bug with the level order change, which made Mystic Cave load Dust Hill's title card data.
One potential explanation for Neo Green Hill seeming so out-of-place in this theory is that it was derived from Olympus- it is the only zone in the game with ancient Greek architecture after all.
This was a wonderful presentation! Thank you so much for sharing your insight!
fantastic video and one of the most in-depth videos on the Sonic 2 Beta I've seen tbh, great work :)
I'm glad you liked it!!
I love that you analysed the music to support your points! I wasn't buying some of your ideas, until you isolated some of those music channels! Really compelling.
Thank you!
I found it interesting about this topic about the zones and the musical themes of how everything connects one zone with the other, good video 👍
Thats Awesome!!! 🤩
i thought the music for early scrapped zones would be different and they used the final ones as placeholders until i saw your video now it makes sense 👌💯
what an awesome work you've made buddy 👏👏 thanks for this very useful video 😃👍✨
Great video as usual CCR. Interesting to hear your voice on these, adds a personal flare to your already good content
Thanks very much!
Damn good video! 🎉
You raised a lot of interesting points. Some that even I overlooked! The Christmas 'bells' in Sky Chase/Ice World theory blew my mind! 😅
Thank you so much!
this is far more fascinating than sonic 3's music mysteries in my eyes, because sonic 3, in terms of levels, really only shows that flying battery was supposed to be for the first half of the game, this is a whole other level...
this literally shows that sonic 2 was pretty much entirely different at one point, with zones that never came and music that was meant for one thing, repurposed for another
i love stuff like this
Thank you, i'm glad you liked the video ^^ sonic 2 is such a fascinating game
Man, this was a really good video! Makes me see the Sonic 2 OST in a completely different light now, I hope you make more videos solving the mystery of Sonic 2's development.
Keep up the good work my friend! 👍
Thank you!
@@CollisionChaos No problem!
Such high quality content you make, keep going!
Thank you!!
Great research! Nice catch with the Christmas music too! I've always been curious about the cut time travel mechanics and levels of the game. There's a few places in the game like green hill zone where there's springs opposite of each other. I'm guessing this is a remnant of the time travel mechanics like Sonic CD where if you bounce back and forth long enough you time travel.
Very very internesting! I would have never thought of comparing the time travel maps zone orders with the level placement, very clever!
It is a bit hard to understand some things you say, as english isn't my native language either, but the subtitles make up for it. Great video! Thank you!
Thank you!
I am waiting for the continuation of your theories! They are very interesting and truthful
This is extremely good. Somehow I missed this video even though I am a longtime subscriber, but you have done exceptional research. As someone who has been following Sonic 2 Beta research since 2006 and done some beta research of my own, this is so well put together and makes so many connections that I didn't realize existed, that I am very impressed.
Thank you for this. Above all, thank you for pointing out the Ice version of the Desert level - all these years I thought it was weird that Brenda would vividly remember something that seemed so out of place, but sure enough, the ice level was a real concept all along.
Thank you so much!! And yeah, is pretty cool to think Masato Nakamura made songs for these levels that were meant to be in the game, it confirms the interviews with Yasuhara and Yamaguchi where they confirmed these levels would be in the final version of game if the team had enough time to finish!
Good video and i learned a lot more about sonic 2’s music that I would have not known without this video
Holy shit I never picked up on Sky Chase's christmas motif until now
great video!!
one of the best videos ive seen on sonic 2’s beta development, subbed
Thank you!
Might be worth looking into Sonic 2 on the Master System, too. Sonic 2 on the MS has Green Hill Zone as Act 4, which uses Super Sonic Warrior (Sonic CD's theme music), Sky High is just Hill Top Zone by a different name etc. I believe there was confirmation too that some of the Genocide City/Cyber City art was used for The Machine (level 3) of Sonic Spinball - though that likely has less to do with unearthing secrets to Sonic 2 MD and just reusing assets/concepts.
I honestly think there might be some hidden time travel secrets hidden in the design if Sonic 2 MS/GG as it would have been in development alongside Sonic 2 MD and Sonic CD, has several connections and is directly about Sonic and Tails.
This is an amazing video and a very probably theory. Loved how you explained it. Great job.
Thank you so much :D
great job! This is the video about the development of sonic 2 that I always hoped to see but never found, until today! very good work :)
Thank you!! One of my biggest motivations to make this video was the fact no one made something like that. When Hirokazu Yasuhara released the island maps me and a friend started noticing a lot of these patterns, and how the internal level order was weirdly similar to the island maps! i'm kinda surprised how no one made a video like that before. It explained so many things i could not understand in the past. Is funny to think how we had so many cut levels inside the game with hints about the songs they would use but only the map make us aware of that, i remember how before they just looked like random leftovers or glitched levels and now they just makes sense
immediately subbed this is a great video very in depth sir 👍
Wow, this is an amazing video. Well researched and super interesting, keep it up!
Thank you!
this is actually an insane revelation here
This is such an awesome video sonic 2's development continues to be intresting after so many years, great job on the research.
Thank you!
Amazing video! I can't thank you enough for all the research you've done.
Before this I actually thought that Dust Hill was the first name for the zone, then it got renamed to Rock world, because dust doesn't necessarily mean sand, then it became Mystic Cave, but your theory makes so much more sense. Perhaps if those stages could've been finished in time, we never would've seen some of the final zones, I know the devs wanted to make it a huge game, but it just seems weird that they made some brand new zones instead of finishing the already planned ones.
I guess is a mystery for another video...
Thank you for your comment! That's a great idea, I think I could try making a video about that.
I personally believe in some cases they comes with simpler game-design levels. For example, the Ice level likely would have snow, falling snow, enemies coming from the snow, etc
The desert would have sand, enemies coming from sand, moving sand, underground parts, etc
Even if the level art got advanced or finished, making the game design for it is very complex and needs a lot of time.
Sky Chase in comparison is a very simpler level, where you're at airplane and can move and jump. Wing Fortress is kinda simpler too, basically some boosters, fans, etc. So I think they comes with simpler ideas that would be fun to play and yet could be done in time to finish the game!
Rock World Zone's mockup was just found today!!
6:06 why the hell does the music slap like this?!
You did a very good job on this I really enjoy it
I really wish I have more friends to discuss about this
Thank you for making this video awesome work!! 🙌
Thank you!!
@@CollisionChaos yeah No problem😁
Absolutely blew my fucking mind.
This is one of the best channels on yt. Love your content
Wow, thank you!!
Well done on comprehensive research dude.
Wonderful video! I’ve always been fascinated with the development history of Sonic 3 & its music but you’ve gotten me just as invested in Sonic 2 now! I think what would be great is if someone did an in-depth interview with Masato Nakamura where they listened to the S2 demo tracks and asked him what the level theme prompts were for each one before they got shuffled around for the final level order. I definitely agree that Sky Chase was originally written for Winter Zone and Oil Ocean for Sand Shower, etc. + the 2P music was definitely meant to be main zone tracks for cut stages.
I also love the theory about Neo Green Hill originally being a desert zone like what became Desert Palace in S3. It makes sense that after Ocean Wind + Tropical Plant were cut, concepts from them were put into NGH and it was rethemed into a partially underwater zone, thus its renaming to Aquatic Ruin late in development. Perhaps it’s coincidence that it also took the Zone 3 spot that Sand Shower would have had in the original zone order too! On another random note, my guess is Chemical Plant was moved from late game to Zone 2 bc it was found to be a fast and fun zone to play through and it was one of the most polished by the time of release, since it had been one of the first zones developed
Thank you :D I hope someone will interview Masato Nakamura! Would be amazing to have confirmation for all that
this is an absolutely amazing video, im so glad someone finally mentioned the fact that aquatic ruins theme sounds like a desert theme and sky chase sounds like a winter theme
Thank you!!
Your Green Hill/Dust Hill Zone theory is exactly why Green Hill turns into Sand Hill at the beginning if Sonic Forces.
What an amazing theory!!! Thank you for your effort at putting this all together
New sub ✌️
Thank you ^-^
An interesting theory and I am glad for the captions they helped so much
This video man, it's amazing. You may be hard to understand, but this theory of yours is super convincing. There seems to be a couple holes, but for the most part it makes perfect sense, and is one of the most well researched videos of this type (heck it is the most well researched) I have EVER seen! It's great stuff! Aquatic Ruin's desert call? Sky Chase's Christmas bells? This is definitely going in my favorites!
Thank you so much!!
@@CollisionChaos Of course, this video has me wondering what others discoveries are possible with a little out of the box thinking and research?
@@Cool_Kid95 That's so true! Like, if it was not the island maps, I would have never guessed the Sky Chase music being christmas
You are kidding us.. You are a genius! Even though these theories may be wrong, they make perfect sense 🤯
You're theory about rock world was really interesting, im writing it down
Maybe Mystic Cave being codenamed Dust Hill means that it was at one point gonna be a mineshaft located in Sand Shower. The floor looks like minecart rails, lanterns are lighting the area, and maybe the gates were made by the people who used to work there to get around easier. Also, the groovy music does not at all fit for a mystic cave. Maybe the music was for Genocide City, and Neo Green Hill was gonna be used for the level. This is just my theory though. Could be wrong
Some interesting theories here. I've thought for a long time that the Oil Ocean music was originally meant for a desert level. Great video with great research that really got me thinking about Sonic 2 in an entirely different way.
Also as you're a non-English speaker I thought you did very well here.
Awesome stuff.
Thank you!
Awesome video, this is so interesting!
Excellent job on this video you did an awesome job covering this interesting topic
Thank you so much :D
@@CollisionChaos the pleasure is all mine
your theory really helped me and reintroduced me into the sonic 2 development investigation, in the way i've found very important information.
i've decided to divide the development into two phases and those phases into stages:
phase 1: conceptual phase, and phase 2: game development phase.
conceptual phase, early stage: it is based on the time travel concept from the min. 1:00 , the levels translations where taken from a discussion page from sonic retro.
Present:
グリーン Green
オーシャン Ocean
ウッド Wood
サンド Sand
メトロポリス Metropolis
Medieval:
トロピカルサン Tropical Sun
ブルーオーシャン Blue Ocean
ヒルトップ Hill Top (Madness Mountain)
Ruined:
ロック Rock
オイル Oil
ダスト Dust
デスエッグ Death Egg (?)
Ancient:
ヒルトップ Hill Top
ブルー Blue (lake)
Future:
カジノ Casino
ケミカル Chemical
ジェノサイド Genocide
ネオデスエッグ Neo Death Egg (?!)
The most interesting thing is the fact that there are two versions of the death egg, also Ruined time first level is Rock World, also i've noticed that the Medieval levels are in the same order of the "Tsunami map" from here: info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_2_Level_Map_Concept_05.png
Conceptual phase, later stage: it is based on the conceptual maps from different times.
Present: remains the same
Medieval: probably deleted due to the translation of Tropical Sun to the Ancient time.
Ancient: it has new levels like Tropical Sun, Olympus (AKA: Hidden Palace), and Rock World (Winter zone), also i think that Blue Lake is just Aquatic Ruins.
Ruined: the confussion starts here, Oil Ocean (Hidden Palace counterpart confirmed in min 7:02) is the first level?, or Rock World? when you get the 7 chaos emeralds you travel to the Ruined time by Hidden Palace?, what about Winter level? is where the bad ending takes place if you not have the 7 chaos emeralds? IDK.
Future: still the same, also i think that Cyber City 1 & 2 are just acts, indicating that the level where meant to be BIG.
Game development phase, early stage: Simon Wai proto.
my questions are: why Rock World 2 does'nt even exist there? maybe Winter Zone takes place in Ancient and Ruined time, but, that does'nt makes sense because of Aquatic Ruins theme from the Masa demo.
Game development phase, final stage: a lot of things where removed, they tried unsuccefully to finish HPZ and there where added two more levels: Sky Chase and Wing Fortress.
notes: Cyber city theme is Wing fortress zone theme, it just fits.
Aquatic Ruins (Blue Lake) theme maybe is the same theme from Hidden Palace.
while writting this i've answered my questions with this:
HPZ (super form unlock) -> RWZ -> time travel -> RWZ 2 -> OOZ -> DHZ -> time travel -> CNZ.
nevermind, this still not answer me why there isn't RWZ 2 in the Simon Wai proto.
and to finish with my investigation, i've discovered some simmilarities in the 2p mode levels of sonic 3 with sonic 2 levels:
Azure Lake: it is simmilar to Aquatic Ruins, just like the leafs from the top of the level.
Chrome Gadget: it just have some mechanics from Cyber City, like the fan (ventilator) that makes sonic fly and the elevator.
Sand Palace: it fits more with Sand Shower Zone because of the arabic vibe it has, the "dust hill" mock up seems more western, just like aquatic ruins theme, so maybe the mock up is Rock World zone 2.
Also, sorry for the long commentary, but these things i've discovered were killing me with the desire of share them.
Thank you for your comment! It's confusing why the level order in the island maps seems to be different from the level order document, and since the Sonic 2 beta level order seems to fit mostly with the island maps, I guess that text concept art was an very early development document, that was later updated when they made the island maps, some of the most important differences that always call my attention are:
the text document has two Hill Tops, two Death Eggs, two Blues (Blue Lake and Blue Ocean?), but don't have two Genocide Cities and neither two Rock Worlds, while in the island maps you don't have a second Hill Top and neither a second Death Egg, but has a second Rock World.
Considering how the banper enemy was made, with a full concept art for it, and the initial concept art Yasuhara made mentioned "Rock Zone (Past)" I believe is much likely the second Rock World was added later, or the original Rock World was moved to the past. We don't know if there was or no a good reason for that, it could be various things. Maybe initially the snow level would be a ruined level, but they decided the theme "Christmas" was too "happy" for a Ruined Time level, or they did not expected Masato Nakamura would comes with such a nice sounding music (Sky Chase) and decided it would be more suitable for a Past level than Ruined, specially if you consider that Oil Ocean and Mystic Cave were likely levels from the Ruined time, both having non happy sounding music.
The fact the past island don't has arrows after Hill Top makes it even more confusing, because we don't know if after Hill Top you'd go to Olympus or to Blue Lake. In the Sonic 2 beta, 08 is the level we know as Hidden Palace, which is a zone made by rocks and waterfalls, which i personally think is kinda fitting if Blue Lake was an level inside that mountain, which is made of rocks and waterfalls. The name (Blue Lake) appears at a much higher position, when compared with Wood Zone (present) which makes it possible in my opinion that Blue Lake was inside that mountain, that would explain why the music sounds like a normal level and why there's the dinossaurs enemies on it. Sonic and Knuckles recycled ideas from Sonic 2, sometimes even order ideas, such as Mushroom Hill (forest) -> Sandopolis (desert), just like in Sonic 2 Wood Zone (forest) -> Sand Shower (desert). I think Lava Reef could have been recycled from Hidden Palace, specially if you see that old magazine photo, with the different background, in the top of Lava Reef there's Death Egg, like in top of the mountain where Blue Lake is, there's a misterious sphere.
In the order document, is mentioned you'd have to activate "Hidden Shrine", would it be the same as Hidden Palace we know? could it be Olympus? is very confusing... I wonder if Blue Lake could have something to do with Olympus, in the Sonic 3 documents, Marble Garden (called Ruin) would start from a flood from Hidrocity, and Marble Garden aparently was recycled from Emerald Isle, as mentioned in the McDonald art from 1994, I wonder if Emerald Isle, Olympus and Aquatic Ruins could have some connection, specially considering how the Sonic 3 concept art calls it "Ruin", and even more considering how Aquatic Ruins is at a very weird ID ($0F), the last ID to have a music on the internal music playlist.
Is also very weird how in the early prototype in Hidden Palace we have not only the enemies we already know (bat and dinossaurs) but in debug mode you also find the Oil Ocean enemies, and an extra set of enemies that includes the aligator and a different piranha, which happens to be kinda similar to that piranha that can be seen in Blue Ocean concept art, which only makes it more confusing, because in the island maps, every level with Hill on it's name is nearly in the same position on the island (Green Hill, Hill Top, Dust hill), sometimes it makes me think about a possible connection between Ocean Wind, Blue Ocean, and Oil Ocean.
What makes me frustated is that I don't think the team would be able to remember anything else, these details are too confusing, and i think we would need to get more documents.
@@CollisionChaos oh hello, im really excited that you've shared your opinion,
it just surprised me that the mcdonalds 94' sth3 Marble Garden's art is just from Emerald Isle, but something made me think that it is a mistake because theres no water in MGZ and instead of it, it has mud.
Also i've seen the level sketches for sonic 3 and i've found Modern Factory (Launch Base) very interesting, first of all it has the Death Egg in a lake with many trees around, also the rival (knuckles) path is a underground area that has ruins.
Maybe there is a connection between Marble Garden and that early Launch Base, obviously there is some inspiration from Emerald Isle (original Aquatic Ruins)...
Also something i did for find levels connection was simply comparing the rythms of the levels music, for example, Emerald Hill theme's rythm is the same as Hilltop rythm, so, the music has a very important role here.
GOD with all the context with the beta levels and the music it all explains so much. This is such a great video, I never even thought about any of this.
Thanks, i'm glad you liked! :D
Green Hill, Hill Top, Dust Hill
Ocean Wind, Tropical Plant, Chemical Plant
Olympus (I’m not sure), Oil Ocean
Wood, Blue Lake, Casino Night
Sand Shower, Rock World
Metropolis, Genocide City
Found this through a Twitter comment discussing the Sonic Origins music discourse. I recall finding this channel after a friend of mine (Colou) showed off your CD Past Restoration work, but I never properly subscribed and feel like kicking myself in the head for it. Really interesting stuff!
I always felt Oil Ocean Zone's theme sounded really odd with the slight 'desert' influence in it's melody. I assumed initially the idea might have been that we were looking at a really extensive oil rig that was established in a once barren desert, but around the time the time travel plot was revealed by Yasuhara's plans were revealed I pretty much figured it was something Nakamura intentionally wrote for a desert. There had been a theory the 2 player tracks were repurposed too, and a lot of the 2 Player tracks really seem to nicely match up with the Zones that got considerably far in development (art assets created for the Genesis before they were thrown out). My jaw hit the floor realizing how blatantly obvious the Winter theme in Sky Chase was and I'm fairly certain you're the first to make that connection. It also makes sense as none of the early design documents seem to suggest Sky Chase was planned from the start. The leaked development prototypes seem to suggest the idea came about midway through development.
I feel the theory still holds a fair amount of water even though it seems time travel was dropped before any actual programming work began. I feel it's likely Sega's initial plan was to have the Zone order be ore or less the same, but remove the small narrative cutscenes showing the player going to a new time period. I feel the restructuring began when they realized a large majority of the Zones planned wouldn't make it, or to create a feeling of the player slowly moving towards industrialization. Sonic 1 sorta does the same with the progression to lush landscapes, a city, and then finally a full-on factory. Labyrinth Zone is the oddity, but I suspect it was placed so far ahead due to the difficulty of it and to tie in with Scrap Brain Zone Act 3. Sonic 2 is a fair bit more inconsistent, but commits to the industrialization past Mystic Cave at least?
The holes I do see with this theory come from not quite understanding if some of these Zone names were different during the planning process and what Zones correspond to what. The document around 7:04 seems to suggest Oil Ocean would've served as a 'Bad Future' for Hidden Palace. I thought we had development insights though that suggest the level was meant to be a one-time secret level that would've granted the ability to use Super Sonic? Development interviews almost seem to suggest this idea got fairly far into development before the idea was thrown away in favor of instantly becoming Super. I'm not sure how that 'secret level entry' idea would've worked with Oil Ocean serving as a Bad Future counterpart. Hidden Palace's odd placement in the '08' slot not corresponding with the 'Ancient Times' map Zone order is weird too, unless the track was composed with this 'water ruins' theme in mind?
I still highly doubt that 'Track 10' was meant to be the actual theme to Hidden Palace despite being thrown into the level in completed revisions of the game. The fact it's the only Nakamura demo track that doesn't loop gives me the impression Nakamura composed it with the idea of it being a buildup to the Super Sonic cutscene, and whoever threw it onto the Genesis made the track loop. I really wouldn't be surprised if there was some miscommunication about if Hidden Palace was going to be used or not, hence it being modified after it seems work on the level was scrapped past the Simon Wai proto.
Hi! Thank you so much for your comment, i'm glad you liked the video :D
I seen other people mentioned the time travel was cut before they started the game, I personally don't believe that, because many things from the time travel were made.
For example: We have confirmation Desert and the Snow levels were connected, Emerald Hill and Hill Top were connected, and Metropolis and Genocide City were connected
If we check the island maps, all these levels seems to be connected as well
Emerald Hill (called Green Hill in beta) was present of Hill Top
Sand Shower was present of Rock World Zone
and Metropolis the present of Genocide City.
In the early prototype, Emerald Hill and Hill Top share the trampoline
The enemy that would come out from sand/snow was made and even programmed
We had a document that suggests time travel levels shared objects
The songs seems to have been made for the original plan too
We get dinossaurs in Hill Top and the cave level (08) because they were from the ancient times, there's even a dinossaur in the island, near to Hill Top
If the time travel idea was cut before they started working on it, I don't think they would make so much content time-travel related like that, that would be a waste of time, time that they could be using to make things for a new plan.
Based on the documents we have, it seems like the Sonic 2 development was similar to Sonic 1
Aparently Yasuhara would comes with the game design, which had descriptions and ideas on how the game, levels, objects, etc were supposed to be/to work, so he would give these documents to the team to work on the sprites, coding, etc
Tom Payne had a document showing levels that were connected, suggesting they should share objects, other than art
The Yasuhara design document for the banper enemy also suggests it would appear in both Desert and Rock Zone
I don't see why Yasuhara would give time travel documents for the team to work on it if it was cut before they started working on it
I believe what was cut before the development started was the Medieval Time
It was originally planned to have 2 past times, the Ancient Times (with the dinossaurs) and Medieval Time
When the island were made, it looks like the Medieval was removed, we don't have any leftover from that in Sonic 2 Beta
The islands were also made for the time travel, that's why Metropolis is the last Present level, being the most tecnologic level for the present time
It could also explain why the Snow level had christmas tree, it was "tecnologic" for the past, and it seems like it was the last past level
And Genocide City/Death Egg being the last levels from future
Aparently the idea was the same as Sonic 1 but with time travel: present would have it's most tecnologic level (Metropolis, with the engines and stuff), past would have it's most tecnologic level (christmas, with christmas tree), and future would have its most tecnologic level (Genocide City, which is some sort of Sonic 2 Scrap Brain, judging by The Machine from Spinball)
The Sonic 2 beta internal orders for mostly part fits with the time travel islands. It hardly could be a coicidence for me, i believe is safe to say at least Sonic 2 beta comes from the Islands that were made for the time travel plan
About Hidden Palace, is really weird... Because we have Olympus, which by name suggests something to do with Aquatic Ruins or the Emerald Isle concept art
At same time, we have the underground cave level, called Hidden Palace
We also has multiple names for the level: Hidden Shrine, Secret Palace, Hidden Palace
Sonic 3 and Knuckles recycled many concept arts from Sonic 2, and i believe the Hidden Palace we know was recycled into Lava Reef, there's a magazine photo of previous version of the level which was even more similar to Lava Reef
There's a Death Egg in the top of Lava Reef
And in Sonic 2 island maps, Blue Lake seems to be a level in the mountain, which is made of rocks and waterfalls, since is much higher than Wood, compared with the Present Time. I think Blue Lake could be a level inside that mountain.
In the top of the mountain, there's a sphere, so that would makes sense for me if Blue Lake was the zone we know as Hidden Palace, and olympus some sort of greek shrine, that's why it's similar to Lava Reef which also have a sphere in the top (Death Egg)
It could explain too why the level we know as Hidden Palace never used the unused music and always used Mystic Cave 2P, maybe that was the real theme for the level.
The artist who made the level (Craig Stitt) said on interviews the big green emerald was just a object he made to block the tube, so the player could go to the tube. It was not a master emerald or anything like that. We never get to see any concept art for a "master emerald" either. I believe someone from the team such as director or designer liked that emerald, and the CGI aesthetics of the level were kinda impressive for the time, i think they decided to turn this level into Hidden Palace at some point of development.
I'm disapointed with Sonic Origins release because i expected we would get more zone concept arts :(
Thinking about it more, it is strange Yasahura didn't make a greater effort to redesign the enemies if Time Travel was truly scrapped before any of the prototypes were built. While I understand the game had a very tight deadline, it seems strange the 'dinosaur' enemy designs still made it into Hill Top Zone. It's been ages since I've played any of the prototypes casually as well, and I had completely forgotten Emerald Hill Zone had the seesaw object like Hill Top in the Nick Arcade build! I feel both Zones having the object might have been intentionally done to strengthen the 'same area, different time period' idea. You definitely bring up a good point!
Yeah, the messy documentation and widely different names makes understanding the documents even harder. The idea was interesting though as it seems like 2's take on Time Travel would've been more plot driven, rather than by player actions like CD. The island art map is extremely interesting upon closer examination. I never even noticed the 'metal dome' in the maps until you brought it up! It lines up with 3K's usage of it in it's Hidden Palace Zone and definitely feels like a leftover from 2's development if that's the case. Stuff like the Act 2 boss also feel like they could've been a leftover from that concept, with the Death Egg influencing the level design. The player also never really sees the Death Egg until the very end of 2. Having a bit of buildup to it actually launching seems like something they might have wanted.
I just assumed 'Olympus' was meant to be Sonic 2's Hidden Palace since it doesn't line up with the 'clockwise' level progression? It kinda matches up with the idea that Yuji talked about where Hidden Palace would've been a level that you could only access with all 7 Emeralds, but with your level order theory and the concept Blue Lake might have inspired 3K's Hidden Palace, it seems more like it was it's own (unique?) thing? Blue Lake's name also matches up with the 'blue' color scheme most of Lava Reef/Hidden Palace had.
I honestly don't doubt that Mystic Cave's 2 player track was originally meant to be Hidden Palace's track. It just 'feels' a lot better suited for a high action level. Christian Whitehead has also hinted he was given access to some internal development design documents while working with Sega. He cheekily hinted that Sonic Mania's Drop Dash came from 3 shortly after the November 3rd prototype was released:
twitter.com/cfwhitehead/status/1195869039454633985
It's worth noting that the Hidden Palace that the player can actually access during a full playthrough in the mobile remasters uses this track. It seems to me this is less like a nod to the Simon Wai prototype, and more he learned that this was always meant to be the track that Nakamura had in mind for actually playing the level. The 'unmodified Hidden Palace' can still be accessed using a Sound Test code, but the fact it doesn't share 2 Player Mystic Cave seems strange. It feels like he would've used 'Track 10' for both layouts if only one was intended for that Zone? I think it's usage here was a compromise so people could listen to the track in a Zone since it otherwise would've gone unused again.
@@Daluigi208 Yeah! If we compare the prototytpes, other than the Simon prototype, the unused theme was added to the game, but the level we know as Hidden Palace still keep using the Mystic Cave 2P
The builts we have of the level using the unused theme, the level was already cut. My theory is that it started as a normal Ancient Times level, with dinos. And eventually they wanted to turn it into Hidden Palace, but changes would be necessary to make it works this way, and they did not had enough time to make this changes.
@@CollisionChaos That's an interesting idea! It would easily explain the issue with how Oil Ocean would've worked with the concept of being Hidden Palace's 'ruined present'. We know that Oil Ocean was always planned to be fully fleshed out with two Acts, while everything else seems to confirm the 'secret 7 Emerald stage' was going to be a one Act deal.
Hidden Palace acting as a 'past' version of Oil Ocean and meaning to be more when time travel was still planned also makes more sense when looking at both stages from afar. Both seem to 'share' certain mechanics. I don't think the water slide is programmed in any prototype, but it feels like it would've had the same effect on Sonic as the 'Oil slides' in Oil Ocean. Both also share very similar color schemes. Oil Ocean also has those weird floating green things, and I don't think the game ever properly explains or hints at what they could be:
info.sonicretro.org/images/9/94/Oilocean.png
These make a lot more sense under the context that Oil Ocean was meant to be a future version of Hidden Palace. Given the similarities to the green jewel theme Hidden Palace has, these could easily be jewels that Eggman harvested from the area when converting it to Oil Ocean.
I kinda wonder if Hill Top only kept the dinosaur enemy in it due to a lack of time to redesign the level to accommodate their removal. The red dino enemy feels easier to yank out in comparison.
5:08 shoutout to the banper concept art. Looks really cute
Mindblowing video by the way!
Thank you!! :D
Love your videos! Also Can't wait for sonic 3 ❤🙏
Olympus might've been an Act 2 to Hidden Palace, perhaps unlocked if you have all the chaos emeralds at that point?
Very Good Soundtrack
Right? Masato Nakamura is brilliant
mano, tu é br? caraca, seus vídeos e remixes são incríveis! sempre bom membros assim na comunidade do nosso azulão, força no canal brother!
Muito obrigado!!
Collision Chaous Radio thank you very much for the information. I wouldn't think like that about the zones. Too bad it was cut, but too good that it will be restored.
if theres more information you should definetly make another one of these. this was really interesting and i dont think ive ever seen anybody make a theory about sonic 2's music
well, music and how they connect to the original concept i meant
Thank you! I'm hoping one day we can get more information. Who knows? Maybe in Sonic Origins they will reveal more concept ats. I wish we could get at least a official confirmation if Rock World/Rock Zone was or not the ice level
i hope origins might do that, and all your evidence really convinces me that rock world could be the ice level in that concept art. i wish there was a scan of that concept though other than that blurry image
@@cheesethepyriteblur origins didnt do that
@@spriteearthworm6463 yes, yes i know. only things weve already seen but put behind a coin paywall
An absolute GREAT video! Make another one with.. hmm what about Sonic CD next? Love to see that! And your accent is so HAUUUUUU (I love it so much)!!!
Thank you so much!!!
wow
this video is really
like
REALLY cool
i loved it
Thank you!