It’s possible that “Ridicule Root” was an early name for Dubious Depths, in a similar vein to how Palmtree Panic was once “Salad Plain”. They even both have a sort of relation to vegetation, with how they were both almost completely untouched by Eggman.
any lost media for any games in general always interests me, hence why i watch channels like this. Biggest thing to happen in recent years for us sonic fans was when the rom dropped for the original alpha of sonic 1, the ones with the marble zone UFo's the green hill boulder and clock (w)ork zone! When I get an everdrive eventually im gonna place that rom onto it along with sonic crackers and a couple of rom hacks. Being able to play this on an actual mega drive hardware would be truly special.
Dubious Depths 100% seems like the Sonic CD equivalent to Marble Zone. Most of the Zones in Sonic CD are clearly different interpretations of Sonic 1's levels (Palmtree Panic being Green Hill, Collision Chaos being Spring Yard, etc.), and Marble Zone was the only one that didn't get a CD interpretation.
With this new info, I think "Ridicule Root"/"Dubious Dephts" was scrapped because, unlike the other zones, it didn't had a gameplay gimmick. Based on concept arts, it seems that it was going to be a traditional platformer zone with visual gimmick about colors judging by the rainbow waterfall
Apparently, Sonic CD tried to remove Zones that were bad and keep the good zones, so it was probably a Marble Zone stage or an earlier water level that wasn't fast enough. (Not that Tidal Tempest is that fast either)
They probably could have had pushable blocks be the central gameplay mechanic since the pushing animation for Sonic is used in the final release and subsequent remakes but have no reason to have it.
Apparently in a interview, one of thr devs (i guess Naoto Oshima) said that Dubious Depths was a platform-based level, however Collision Chaos was also taking this route, so they chose to have Collision Chaos as the platform-based level and scrapped Dubious Depths. However i remember another excuse which said that every level was designed by a different person, and whoever designed Dubious Depths didn't do a good job on it so their level was scrapped. My conclusion is that it was just a bad level.
@@TheLegoNation in all the levels you mentioned, there's barely enough room for sonic to use the time travel mechanic (as in you need to run for a long period to trigger it)
I’d say Wacky Workbench is probably more guilty of being slow AND annoying as well. In a game like Sonic CD where it seems like they put more emphasis on exploring levels than actual speed or momentum most of the time. And that’s with the added time travel mechanic that requires speed and momentum.
@@turboDrowsy not "I literally can't run because I'll run into a wall" slow, however. It's annoying but once you get the hang of it you can actually move for an extended period of time without the level forcing you to stop.
I have a theory that the first 6 levels were based on Sonic 1's levels, because they are kinda similar. Palmtree Panic = Green Hill Dubious Depths = Marble Collision Chaos = Spring Yard Tidal Tempest = Labyrinth Stardust Speedway = Star Light (may have been moved to round 7 later in development, with Quartz Quadrant replacing it) Wacky Workbench = Scrap Brain
This is softly confirmed, because Dubious Depths was speculated to have been the Marble inspired area and the comments and map of Little Planet are imo enough evidence.
Sonic CD was supposed to be an enhanced port of StH 2 From a quote on Wikipedia: “Sonic CD was conceived as an enhanced port of Sonic 2 for the Sega CD. At this point, it was codenamed Super Sonic[12] and would feature additional levels, a fully orchestrated soundtrack, sprite-scaling effects, and animated cutscenes.[12][13] Meager sales of Sonic 2 in Japan and the team having its own vision resulted in the reworking of the port.” Edit: so it’s very possible that R2 could’ve been inspired by Aquatic Ruins instead which in its own holds similarities to marble zone- at least design wise in some areas Edit 2: another thing I realized- is that there was a dessert level planned for CD, which there was also one planned for Sonic 2 aka dusty hill and dessert dazzle
@@Atlas_DXUlt The desert level was planned by Christian Whitehead when he was making the 2011 port of Sonic CD. He also wanted to make a new final zone that would house the "true final boss" after getting good future in every zone, but all of that was rejected by SEGA because they thought it interfered with the original vision of the 1993 SEGA CD game.
@@Atlas_DXUlt nope. It was supposed to be a Sega CD port of Sonic 1 which then became a more evolved concept. It was being developed at the same time as Sonic 2. Also, Desert Dazzle was made for the 2011 remake, not the original game. That's why it was scrapped too.
@@LaelGames7913that’s because it originally was supposed to be sonic 1 + 2 with extras. Sonic 1 (CD) was gonna have extra levels and have higher quality graphics. Sonic 2 (CD) was planned early into sonic 2 when time travel was going to be added. They eventually merged them into sonic CD.
I'd imagine that it was cut for "not matching Sonic's speed" due to the time travel feature, it looks like Marble Zone yeah and that didn't stop them before, but I can't imagine Sonic CD's time travel mechanics working well or at all in that zone.
You probably hit the nail on the head with that. If it took cues from marble zone there would be little to no area underground to build up speed for time travel unless you went out of the way to make spring set ups or overly flat stretches of ground.
Didn't stop them before... are you referring to Marble and Labyrinth Zone? Because that was Sonic's first game, so having some rough spots is to be expected. Future games almost completely did away with slow platforming.
Judging by the name Dubious Depths, the "dungeon" like theme, being originally located between the first and second zone of the game and concept art showing the zone transitioning to an underground area, it makes me think R2 was going to be the Sonic CD equivalent of Marble Zone. If according to Naoto Oshima the zone "didn't match Sonic's speed" then maybe R2 was just as slow-paced as Marble Zone? Given that Sonic CD's level themes are mostly taken from Sonic 1, i just find it strange that Marble was the only one not to have its level theme being reused.
If you insert the cut zone into the level order, you find out that the themes of the first four stages match with their Sonic 1 counterparts. Palmtree Panic-Green Hill Dubious Depths-Marble Collision Chaos-Spring Yard Tidal Tempest-Labyrinth
Hunh. I wonder if the rainbow colored pencil drawing that we have of a level literally called "Dubious" is the colorful, upbeat good future version then?
Huh. I always thought it would be called Rainbow Ruins due to the concept art. It’s nice that we have a name now, but there is still much more yet to be discovered about this lost zone.
Another thing that’s interesting is that the Initials for Dubious Depths “DD” is the same as Desert Dazzle “DD” Did Christian Whitehead also know about it. Also it is theorized that design wise the stage would have been been inspired by floating island in the Anime Castle in the Sky. In fact there is a floating island on little planet seen in the D.A garden
Lmao Desert Dazzle is inspired by the scraped Sonic 2 desert level. Also, it's kinda hard coming up with a name for a desert themed level that doesn't have "Desert" in it (I guess "Sand" works but there's already a SS called Stardust Speedway).
I'm convinced the animation studio that did the sonic CD cutscenes most likely have or had the prototype with R2 on it because they would have had to see the level in action for reference material while creating the end cutscene hopefully they didn't dispose of it if only someone could contact them somehow or maybe one of them will drop the prototype some day
Tetra: I hope R2 appears in a prototype in some form one day. TCRF and Hidden Palace: Allow us to introduce ourselves also finally, FINALLY! dubious depth seems like a fun level, what’s next, geometry dash 2.2 release date? or obama’s last name revealed?
I can imagine a "dubious Depths" level would be a tower that just lead downward, rather than horizontally. With Sonic going left, then right, then left, then right. It would truly not feel like the spindashy fast Sonic experience. More akin to some of Taz's or Vectorman's falling bosses. But for an entire level.
4:26 no yeah, just by hearing it, i think this was absolutely meant to be R2's Bad Future theme if Little Planet was meant to be the Present theme. the baseline is exactly the same, which is a running theme in the differing time periods of each stage's music
So close and yet the search continues on after 30 years. All that's left is the past theme and a prototype build that has it, which we know at least one has to exist since they had to test the level to determine it wasn't up to quality. December 1992 - May 1993 is a wide gap in development for a game like Sonic CD.
I think every sonic cd level has some sort of negative emotion in the name like palmtree "panic", metallic "madness", or collision "chaos". I highly think relic ruins isn't the name for this level. the true name for this level is clearly bean burrito zone
It sounds like "Ridicule Root" is a product of the golden age of Japanese speakers just experimenting with English words that sound cool. If they ever release another game that lets you make an OC, I want a Ridicule Root T-shirt in the wardrobe, just to bring things full circle.
Bro I go years without hearing a single thing about R2 and all of a sudden there's been SO MUCH STUFF found in the past like couple months 😭😭😭 I love it here
HELL YEAH! R2 is my absolute favorite mystery! Ruin stages are my favorite and from what we've seen this one looks awesome! Part of me did genuinely wish it was actually "relic ruins" the name just works so well
Oh my God... I've been listening to that Sonic CD remix album for a while, I love the Sonic Stream track from it, I've listened to it many times NEVER would I have guessed that was a remix of an unused Sonic CD track, what in the FUCK
given the cut credits video bit, dubious depths would likely have been somewhat similar to marble zone and would have possibly had collapsing sections of ground, hence the name. it makes some sense why it was scrapped as they realized that it was much slower than it should have been, especially compared to sonic 2.
I read the TV Tropes page for Sonic CD yesterday and learned this information. Didn't say _when_ this information came out, so initially I was confused why this is only now getting an update.
Stuff like this just makes me wonder how many other games have had ideas completely scrapped that never see the light of day. Like the only proof they existed is a little text string or something. Also, beta versions of games. There’s probably so much stuff that once existed in early versions of games that got removed in the full version and never resurfaced and this is why I’m such a sucker for lost media.
3:47 this feels like how it's named, this gives the vibe of you being in an underground ancient ruin eroded by the rainbow waterfalls, vines, and water, i honestly love it, wish it would have been a real level. Edit: i feel like this would have been an underground water level like S3&K's hydrocity zone
Looks likes theories about Marble-alike zone but for Sonic CD was right all time. Fun fact: We still can see dungeons-alike zone in Sonic 2 concept arts with text "Madness Mountain". It all makes sense because Sonic 2 and Sonic CD was supposed to be one huge game, but got cut into 2 due to console's memory limitations
Sonic CD's stages are pretty much remixed versions of Sonic 1's stages, so I suppose they just couldn't turn marble into the high-speed and wacky fashion of the game
Desert Dazzle was indeed real, it was just not for the original 1993 release of Sonic CD, Christian Whitehead made Desert Dazzle for his remake of Sonic CD in 2011, but it was rejected by SEGA due to them wanting the remake to be faithful to the original game.
5:20 Incidentally, the kanji labels here say, in clockwise order from 1R to 8R: 1R (Palmtree Panic): Mid-morning 3R (Collision Chaos): Dusk 4R (Tidal Tempest): Night 5R (Quartz Quadrant): Mid-morning 6R (Wacky Workbench): Evening 7R (Stardust Speedway): Night 8R (Metallic Madness): Morning Essentially, the time zones for each zone as they appear in-game. these times of day presumably are constant in all four versions of the stages, although for some time periods, you don't even get to see the outside areas much at all. Since they didn't even decide on a time of day for the stage BG, I suppose that 2R didn't make it very far into development...
@@Kimarnic it's quite possible that all they did was sketch out the level layout without developing any in game graphical assets, either in paper or by making a prototype using assets that wouldn't make it into the final game - think the basic test levels in platformers and even fps titles. Not only that, but like, I dunno what kind of reaction Marble Zone got in Japanese magazines at the time - but I think there's a not insignificant number of people who feel it was kind of a clunky stage that forces a game built on momentum and speed to slow to a crawl. It's possible that the team in Japan - or those Sonic Team members who were at STI and communicating with Sonic Team as STI worked on 2 - was aware of that fact, and axed the stage accordingly.
@@sofiaciel7599 Going from what Mazin has said recently, he states that Dubious Depths was scrapped due to being unable to fit all of the music onto the CD-ROM and the tight schedule, which implies it was in the game in some state at some point. There is evidence to back this up, as most Sega CD retail CDs hold 500MB - 550MB worth of storage, with Sonic CD being a little over at 556MB, making it basically impossible to fit all 8 rounds the developers wanted in the game. Also, Dubious Depths not having a stated time of day could mean multiple things, one of these is that the time of day could've been the same as Palmtree Panic.
@Sofia Ciel: In other words, _Sonic CD_ takes place over the course of three days? In comparison to the original _Sonic_ on the Genesis/Mega Drive, it seemed like the whole game took place over the course of a single day.
I still dont believe that the name is not relic ruins, serious that name locked to be real!, I even made a level in a game where you can create your sonic levels, I had created my concept and even named it relic ruins, I thought it was that name unfortunately it wasn't, that name matches so much with what is shown in the animation of the credits
Fun fact In Sonic2 on Game Gear and Master System, the first boss is an antlion robot Also both Sonic2 from Master System and Game Gear and Genesis/MegaDrive came out before SonicCD
I am a massive sonic CD nerd so it pains me that i found this video a year late The level was most likely scrapped cause it didnt fit with the game's themes, thats likely what he ohshima meant by "doesnt match Sonic's speed" They had delayed the game twice and ohshima, being the original creator of sonic and his world, was given full creative freedom over the game and just about as much time an budget as he wanted The game was ohshima's strictly talored masterpiece, so he had a very specific idea and theme that he made sure was present through the entire game Dubious Depths was probably just not a fit for that concept
I guess it was obvious since CD is just a sonic 1 remake (similarly to sonic 2 but STILL)that the second level would be a dungeon of sorts in reminiscence to marble zone and it's ancient ruins,y know,like how palmtree panic is a green hill doppleganger or collision chaos is that of spring yard,i think there might be a pattern in here,now we all know that marble is easily one of the most rage inducing level's if you rely on speed too much and don't remember the layout too well,so it's natural that DD or RR would replicate that ruining the fast-paced sonic action of the game,so it might've got scrapped because they were trying avoid having the game being too slow... though collision chaos and metallic madness seem to suffer the exact issue
Or,to be fair,R2 could pull a tidal tempest which is a discount version of labyrinth which isn't as triggering as the level it is based on and make it so that you can traverse through the depths without being hit too much or slowing down
Bruh you're so right lmao, now that I think about it the zone order almost exactly matches that of Sonic 1: the first, a tropical like level; the second, some underground cave/structure (that was scrapped from CD); the third, a casino like level (that acts as the second in CD); the fourth, a water level; the fifth, a level related to shiny things, the sixth, Eggman's headquarters (in this case Sonic cd differs because Stardust Speedway is more like the zone or city where Eggman resides and not the plant or building itself).
@@jorgitoislamico4224 stardust speedway is based after starlight zone both taking place in these huge yet pretty towns/citys that already are or are going to be under Eggman's influence, can't seem to find what sonic 1 level's wacky workbench and quartz quadrant correlate to,so they must be two extra level's they've made up in order to make the game more interesting or something like that
MasterDreamcaster did release videos showing him going into his DMs with Naoto Ohshima on his channel FLYKING, confirming that the name is indeed Dubious Depths.
I always thought Sonic CD was more a take on exploration, not speed. So I’m not sure why they would cut Dubious Depths due to lack of speed, it should be what the game is going for. I would have loved to see a completed version of Dubious Depths but I’m enjoying the mystery so far so I don’t want the restoration to happen anytime soon.
@@TechBlade9000 I guess some people thought of Sonic CD as a speed game as all the other ones were and so they probably tried to play the fastest they could.
I'm late to this video, but when I saw the concept art for the diagram of Little Planet, I thought the percentages on the pic represented your overall progress throughout the game and not how much influence Dr. Eggman had on the planet. You learn something new everyday.
I feel like we now have enough for talented people in the community to make decent enough guesstimations at Dubious Depths in a similar way to how fans tried to fill out the likes of Wood Zone and Sand Hill zone.
My conclusion to this is that Sonic fans care much more about Sonic than the original devs do. Similar to Star Wars fans racking their brains to try and tie loose ends that the writers didn't care about, or Toriyama forgetting everything about Dragon Ball.
i personally believe mazin might've meant to say Radicle Root, as a radicle is the first part of a seed that emerges during germination. this is just speculation on my part though
i was hoping it was R2 omg. and little planet’s theme was always one of my fav sonic tracks so to see that level supposed have that song makes me wish we got it.
0:25 if you read the comments the person is calling tetra stupid cuz of the name being “relic ruins” they thought.they are the one stupid for not knowing it was a fan made name, and don’t call him stupid.
The erosion percentage made me realize Stardust Speedway was just built by Eggman and now I feel dumb haha. I always thought it was strange that an uninhabited planet with such a focus on greenery had a giant city but now that I think about it in this context, obviously it was never there to begin with. I also must say, Dubious Depths is kind of a scary name for a level 2. I always thought Collision Chaos was a bit much but Dubious Depths is even more intense
I mean to be fair, it IS stuff from 30 years ago, stuff that was ultimately scrapped too might I add. So it's not really shocking their memory of it's a bit hazy
![Sonic CD LOST BITS | Unused Content, Prototypes & Debug Mode [TetraBitGaming]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oCSYYt_5Hdw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Sonic CD LOST BITS | Unused Content, Prototypes & Debug Mode [TetraBitGaming]](/img/tr.png)
![Sonic Generations Cut Content | LOST BITS [TetraBitGaming]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5l_eA28W5Y0/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching :)
No problems
your welcome
where is the r2 bad future remix i need it
No problems your the best RUclipsr after all
Brainz
It’s possible that “Ridicule Root” was an early name for Dubious Depths, in a similar vein to how Palmtree Panic was once “Salad Plain”. They even both have a sort of relation to vegetation, with how they were both almost completely untouched by Eggman.
Yeah it was an earlier name
@EarthSocket mf they meant ridicule root was ealier 💀
@EarthSocket did you just mf correct me
and how wacky workbench was called crazy toybox
@@someguy0nthen3t LOL
It was a pleasure to contribute to this video💙🦔
You're famous now!
Hey look a based person
Thank you so much for your work!!
At last we have more information
Yoo hi alexy angelfox!
Lost sonic media is just as interesting as lost Mario media so it’s cool to see sonic get the spotlight
lost mario media is super rare so lost sonic media is more interesting
@@ros9764 yea
Sonic is cooler because Sonic is way past cool!
@@Hugo-yz1vb "I'm going way past cool!"
any lost media for any games in general always interests me, hence why i watch channels like this. Biggest thing to happen in recent years for us sonic fans was when the rom dropped for the original alpha of sonic 1, the ones with the marble zone UFo's the green hill boulder and clock (w)ork zone! When I get an everdrive eventually im gonna place that rom onto it along with sonic crackers and a couple of rom hacks. Being able to play this on an actual mega drive hardware would be truly special.
Dubious Depths 100% seems like the Sonic CD equivalent to Marble Zone. Most of the Zones in Sonic CD are clearly different interpretations of Sonic 1's levels (Palmtree Panic being Green Hill, Collision Chaos being Spring Yard, etc.), and Marble Zone was the only one that didn't get a CD interpretation.
So ig ther may have been lava
@@TORXINYUEXAVIERSTUDENTIt doesn't make sense conceptual art shows waterfalls
@@TORXINYUEXAVIERSTUDENTMaybe it would be water instead of lava
With this new info, I think "Ridicule Root"/"Dubious Dephts" was scrapped because, unlike the other zones, it didn't had a gameplay gimmick. Based on concept arts, it seems that it was going to be a traditional platformer zone with visual gimmick about colors judging by the rainbow waterfall
Apparently, Sonic CD tried to remove Zones that were bad and keep the good zones, so it was probably a Marble Zone stage or an earlier water level that wasn't fast enough. (Not that Tidal Tempest is that fast either)
They probably could have had pushable blocks be the central gameplay mechanic since the pushing animation for Sonic is used in the final release and subsequent remakes but have no reason to have it.
@@pumpkinpyewastaken so what were the other zone's excuse?
Apparently in a interview, one of thr devs (i guess Naoto Oshima) said that Dubious Depths was a platform-based level, however Collision Chaos was also taking this route, so they chose to have Collision Chaos as the platform-based level and scrapped Dubious Depths. However i remember another excuse which said that every level was designed by a different person, and whoever designed Dubious Depths didn't do a good job on it so their level was scrapped.
My conclusion is that it was just a bad level.
@@FlipeTheBased Then why was Wacky Workbench still in the game?
I guess you can say this adds quite the new level of "depth" into this lost bit.
Quite dubious.
This level's Roots are honestly Ridicolous
Please stop talking
Booooooooooooooooooooo
*laughs so hard that dude ends in coma
“Removed for being too slow” *cough Marble Zone, *cough Labyrinth Zone, *cough Metropolis Zone, and probably a dozen others I didn’t mention
those games didn't have the time travel mechanic though.
@@TheLegoNation in all the levels you mentioned, there's barely enough room for sonic to use the time travel mechanic (as in you need to run for a long period to trigger it)
all those levels are from sonic 1. They made an effort to make more levels based around momentum and speed going forward including in Sonic CD.
I’d say Wacky Workbench is probably more guilty of being slow AND annoying as well.
In a game like Sonic CD where it seems like they put more emphasis on exploring levels than actual speed or momentum most of the time. And that’s with the added time travel mechanic that requires speed and momentum.
@@turboDrowsy not "I literally can't run because I'll run into a wall" slow, however. It's annoying but once you get the hang of it you can actually move for an extended period of time without the level forcing you to stop.
I have a theory that the first 6 levels were based on Sonic 1's levels, because they are kinda similar.
Palmtree Panic = Green Hill
Dubious Depths = Marble
Collision Chaos = Spring Yard
Tidal Tempest = Labyrinth
Stardust Speedway = Star Light (may have been moved to round 7 later in development, with Quartz Quadrant replacing it)
Wacky Workbench = Scrap Brain
This is softly confirmed, because Dubious Depths was speculated to have been the Marble inspired area and the comments and map of Little Planet are imo enough evidence.
Sonic CD was supposed to be an enhanced port of StH 2
From a quote on Wikipedia: “Sonic CD was conceived as an enhanced port of Sonic 2 for the Sega CD. At this point, it was codenamed Super Sonic[12] and would feature additional levels, a fully orchestrated soundtrack, sprite-scaling effects, and animated cutscenes.[12][13] Meager sales of Sonic 2 in Japan and the team having its own vision resulted in the reworking of the port.”
Edit: so it’s very possible that R2 could’ve been inspired by Aquatic Ruins instead which in its own holds similarities to marble zone- at least design wise in some areas
Edit 2: another thing I realized- is that there was a dessert level planned for CD, which there was also one planned for Sonic 2 aka dusty hill and dessert dazzle
@@Atlas_DXUlt The desert level was planned by Christian Whitehead when he was making the 2011 port of Sonic CD. He also wanted to make a new final zone that would house the "true final boss" after getting good future in every zone, but all of that was rejected by SEGA because they thought it interfered with the original vision of the 1993 SEGA CD game.
That’s literally what I was gonna say!
@@Atlas_DXUlt nope. It was supposed to be a Sega CD port of Sonic 1 which then became a more evolved concept. It was being developed at the same time as Sonic 2.
Also, Desert Dazzle was made for the 2011 remake, not the original game. That's why it was scrapped too.
Imagine a Dubious depths beta recreation
Wait
Nice idea
Im 100% sure it would be similar to marble.
I belive it would need a face lift to be able to be enjoyable
@@spikerthedragonbearmost of this games zones are similar to ones found in the first game anyway
@@LaelGames7913that’s because it originally was supposed to be sonic 1 + 2 with extras. Sonic 1 (CD) was gonna have extra levels and have higher quality graphics. Sonic 2 (CD) was planned early into sonic 2 when time travel was going to be added.
They eventually merged them into sonic CD.
I'd imagine that it was cut for "not matching Sonic's speed" due to the time travel feature, it looks like Marble Zone yeah and that didn't stop them before, but I can't imagine Sonic CD's time travel mechanics working well or at all in that zone.
It was cut because the programmer didn't do a good job
You probably hit the nail on the head with that. If it took cues from marble zone there would be little to no area underground to build up speed for time travel unless you went out of the way to make spring set ups or overly flat stretches of ground.
I mean
Most levels in SOnic CD barely functions with the time travel feature so like...
@@Dolphin2048 they didn't hold out it looks like
Didn't stop them before... are you referring to Marble and Labyrinth Zone? Because that was Sonic's first game, so having some rough spots is to be expected. Future games almost completely did away with slow platforming.
Absolutely amazing to find all this stuff, i'm sure with all of this info, someone can make a "Dubious Depths restored" hack for Sonic CD
Yess
That would be so cool if only I knew how to use Rom Hacks
I love that we're still learning stuff about the old games all these years later.
I love going in “depth” with obscure stuff like this, it’s nice to see the “roots” of R2
Noice pun
Judging by the name Dubious Depths, the "dungeon" like theme, being originally located between the first and second zone of the game and concept art showing the zone transitioning to an underground area, it makes me think R2 was going to be the Sonic CD equivalent of Marble Zone. If according to Naoto Oshima the zone "didn't match Sonic's speed" then maybe R2 was just as slow-paced as Marble Zone? Given that Sonic CD's level themes are mostly taken from Sonic 1, i just find it strange that Marble was the only one not to have its level theme being reused.
If you insert the cut zone into the level order, you find out that the themes of the first four stages match with their Sonic 1 counterparts.
Palmtree Panic-Green Hill
Dubious Depths-Marble
Collision Chaos-Spring Yard
Tidal Tempest-Labyrinth
I also noticed along with the "erosion percentage", the zones go from morning (午前中) to night (夜), then back to morning at 100% (朝).
Sonic CD is still my favorite game in the franchise so its nice to see that cut content is still being discovered for it.
Hunh. I wonder if the rainbow colored pencil drawing that we have of a level literally called "Dubious" is the colorful, upbeat good future version then?
Could have been the above ground part?
Good future?
You're right that's most likely it
Huh. I always thought it would be called Rainbow Ruins due to the concept art. It’s nice that we have a name now, but there is still much more yet to be discovered about this lost zone.
Another thing that’s interesting is that the Initials for Dubious Depths “DD” is the same as Desert Dazzle “DD” Did Christian Whitehead also know about it. Also it is theorized that design wise the stage would have been been inspired by floating island in the Anime Castle in the Sky. In fact there is a floating island on little planet seen in the D.A garden
Lmao Desert Dazzle is inspired by the scraped Sonic 2 desert level.
Also, it's kinda hard coming up with a name for a desert themed level that doesn't have "Desert" in it (I guess "Sand" works but there's already a SS called Stardust Speedway).
@@RealCoffeeSpew Funny that you mention 'sand', as the official name for the scrapped desert level in Sonic 2 was apparently 'Sand Shower Zone'.
I'm convinced the animation studio that did the sonic CD cutscenes most likely have or had the prototype with R2 on it because they would have had to see the level in action for reference material while creating the end cutscene hopefully they didn't dispose of it if only someone could contact them somehow or maybe one of them will drop the prototype some day
Maybe Toei Animation and/or Studio Junio know something.
@@Loader2K1 Yeah they do they need to be contacted I'm sure they won't be as tight lipped as the SEGA devs
Tetra: I hope R2 appears in a prototype in some form one day.
TCRF and Hidden Palace: Allow us to introduce ourselves
also finally, FINALLY! dubious depth seems like a fun level, what’s next, geometry dash 2.2 release date? or obama’s last name revealed?
I've covered all the prototypes haha there isn't anything more left of Dubious Depths in the ones that are public
@@TetraBitGaming Hmmm….. Yeah. I still do hope more of R2 gets revealed soon, like more concept sketches or even a full remaster.
@@TetraBitGaming It'd be so cool if someone found the actual files for R2 and managed to restore them to sonic CD.
Well, a year later but 2.2 did released...
@@noellewastaken ik
recall that the r2 section of the ending animation is actually littered with roots, adding some slight credibility to mazin's claim.
Dubious Depths, Relic Ruins, Prism Palace, Desert Dazzle and Final Fever
I can imagine a "dubious Depths" level would be a tower that just lead downward, rather than horizontally. With Sonic going left, then right, then left, then right. It would truly not feel like the spindashy fast Sonic experience. More akin to some of Taz's or Vectorman's falling bosses. But for an entire level.
Maybe *that's* how it should be built (when put back in a "restored" hack of _Sonic CD_).
4:26 no yeah, just by hearing it, i think this was absolutely meant to be R2's Bad Future theme if Little Planet was meant to be the Present theme. the baseline is exactly the same, which is a running theme in the differing time periods of each stage's music
So close and yet the search continues on after 30 years. All that's left is the past theme and a prototype build that has it, which we know at least one has to exist since they had to test the level to determine it wasn't up to quality. December 1992 - May 1993 is a wide gap in development for a game like Sonic CD.
Dubious Depths is definitely some Marble Zone sounding stage. Oh man.
Kinda glad it got cut
I think every sonic cd level has some sort of negative emotion in the name like palmtree "panic", metallic "madness", or collision "chaos". I highly think relic ruins isn't the name for this level. the true name for this level is clearly bean burrito zone
Stardust Speedway
@@Lo-Sir dust makes you sneeze so it's bad
@@MNthal I mean… he’s not wrong
@@Lo-Sir And running too fast on a speedway can make you sick and possibly get a ticket
But this is Sonic we're talking about
Wacky "workbench"?
It sounds like "Ridicule Root" is a product of the golden age of Japanese speakers just experimenting with English words that sound cool. If they ever release another game that lets you make an OC, I want a Ridicule Root T-shirt in the wardrobe, just to bring things full circle.
I love that they basically brought the Erosion Level back in Sonic Forces, where we see Eggman's Control in % too.
if only they had done it better…
Bro I go years without hearing a single thing about R2 and all of a sudden there's been SO MUCH STUFF found in the past like couple months 😭😭😭 I love it here
Wow, I didn't really expect that much info. Great video Tetra! Keep it going!
Welcome to Riddical Rortress 2, after 30 years of development, hopefully, it would have been worth the wait.
This made me laugh a lot XD
Hopefully Dubious Depths appears in a future Sonic CD prototype release.
You know who else's level name was finally revealed after 30 years? My mom!
Good for her, hope her level transition went well!
What
@@siriusxakanscaleguy7147 Regular Show's Muscle man Joke.
Dammit muscle man! Get back to helping skips!
Or Your FIRED
It’s only a matter of time before someone recreates the zone.
You mean "round," right?
@@GabePuratekuta yea
It's honestly so cool that we can just go on Twitter and ask former/current devs about what into making such a great game.
I can't believe r2 or Riddical Root have finally have attention again I guess the fans are going to try to recreate it.
It feels so good to finally get more info about this. Hopefully we can learn more info about it soon.
Dubious definitely sounds like the most 90’s video game level ever known to man. So I’m gonna say that this info is accurate.
I just want to say: Master Dreamcaster is one of the coolest names I ever heard!
It would honestly have been funny if they kept Ridicule Root because of the two Rs
Ridicule Root
R R
2 Rs
R2
XD
I know for a fact someone will try to make the most accurate recreation of this stage soon
Ridicule Root is on par with Genocide City in terms of how bonkers of a name it is for a Sonic level
HELL YEAH! R2 is my absolute favorite mystery! Ruin stages are my favorite and from what we've seen this one looks awesome! Part of me did genuinely wish it was actually "relic ruins" the name just works so well
Ridicule Root or something similar could actually be true based on the dense forest concept art.
"Didn't stop them before * shows labyrinth zone* " look man that was the first game they were getting used to making sonic
I was always wondering about that "Little Planet" track, you never get to hear it in-game.
Oh my God... I've been listening to that Sonic CD remix album for a while, I love the Sonic Stream track from it, I've listened to it many times
NEVER would I have guessed that was a remix of an unused Sonic CD track, what in the FUCK
given the cut credits video bit, dubious depths would likely have been somewhat similar to marble zone and would have possibly had collapsing sections of ground, hence the name. it makes some sense why it was scrapped as they realized that it was much slower than it should have been, especially compared to sonic 2.
this is so surreal bro i never thought we would get more r2 stuff
I read the TV Tropes page for Sonic CD yesterday and learned this information. Didn't say _when_ this information came out, so initially I was confused why this is only now getting an update.
Stuff like this just makes me wonder how many other games have had ideas completely scrapped that never see the light of day. Like the only proof they existed is a little text string or something. Also, beta versions of games. There’s probably so much stuff that once existed in early versions of games that got removed in the full version and never resurfaced and this is why I’m such a sucker for lost media.
3:47 this feels like how it's named, this gives the vibe of you being in an underground ancient ruin eroded by the rainbow waterfalls, vines, and water, i honestly love it, wish it would have been a real level.
Edit: i feel like this would have been an underground water level like S3&K's hydrocity zone
Looks likes theories about Marble-alike zone but for Sonic CD was right all time.
Fun fact: We still can see dungeons-alike zone in Sonic 2 concept arts with text "Madness Mountain". It all makes sense because Sonic 2 and Sonic CD was supposed to be one huge game, but got cut into 2 due to console's memory limitations
Sonic CD's stages are pretty much remixed versions of Sonic 1's stages, so I suppose they just couldn't turn marble into the high-speed and wacky fashion of the game
So now, "Desert Dazzle" can rest in peace as just a myth, and give place to "Dubious Depths" :')
Desert Dazzle was indeed real, it was just not for the original 1993 release of Sonic CD, Christian Whitehead made Desert Dazzle for his remake of Sonic CD in 2011, but it was rejected by SEGA due to them wanting the remake to be faithful to the original game.
Maybe R2 is like a rainbow forest? Or maybe an early stardust speedway? Or like a castle? Possibly a city?
Underground?
@@GabePuratekuta maybe that too?
I'm still wondering what the deal is with that floating castle or ruins on the Little Planet in DA Garden mode myself.
Sure, such a scrapped Zone could add a lot of depth to the lore, but apparently our leads are dubious at best.
5:20 Incidentally, the kanji labels here say, in clockwise order from 1R to 8R:
1R (Palmtree Panic): Mid-morning
3R (Collision Chaos): Dusk
4R (Tidal Tempest): Night
5R (Quartz Quadrant): Mid-morning
6R (Wacky Workbench): Evening
7R (Stardust Speedway): Night
8R (Metallic Madness): Morning
Essentially, the time zones for each zone as they appear in-game. these times of day presumably are constant in all four versions of the stages, although for some time periods, you don't even get to see the outside areas much at all. Since they didn't even decide on a time of day for the stage BG, I suppose that 2R didn't make it very far into development...
@@Kimarnic it's quite possible that all they did was sketch out the level layout without developing any in game graphical assets, either in paper or by making a prototype using assets that wouldn't make it into the final game - think the basic test levels in platformers and even fps titles.
Not only that, but like, I dunno what kind of reaction Marble Zone got in Japanese magazines at the time - but I think there's a not insignificant number of people who feel it was kind of a clunky stage that forces a game built on momentum and speed to slow to a crawl. It's possible that the team in Japan - or those Sonic Team members who were at STI and communicating with Sonic Team as STI worked on 2 - was aware of that fact, and axed the stage accordingly.
@@sofiaciel7599 Going from what Mazin has said recently, he states that Dubious Depths was scrapped due to being unable to fit all of the music onto the CD-ROM and the tight schedule, which implies it was in the game in some state at some point. There is evidence to back this up, as most Sega CD retail CDs hold 500MB - 550MB worth of storage, with Sonic CD being a little over at 556MB, making it basically impossible to fit all 8 rounds the developers wanted in the game. Also, Dubious Depths not having a stated time of day could mean multiple things, one of these is that the time of day could've been the same as Palmtree Panic.
@Sofia Ciel: In other words, _Sonic CD_ takes place over the course of three days? In comparison to the original _Sonic_ on the Genesis/Mega Drive, it seemed like the whole game took place over the course of a single day.
I still dont believe that the name is not relic ruins, serious that name locked to be real!, I even made a level in a game where you can create your sonic levels, I had created my concept and even named it relic ruins, I thought it was that name unfortunately it wasn't, that name matches so much with what is shown in the animation of the credits
it wouldn't make sense for it to be relic ruins, that's a fan-given name and it would be quite the coincidence if it was the real name
The name Ridicule Root has 2 R’s, like “R2”.
And Dubious Depths has 2 D’s.
R2D2?
SONIC STAR WARS CONFIRMED!?!?1?
Round 2
THE R2 IS REAL!!!
Can we get more lost?
So lost
Woah ho ho~
CAN WE GET MUCH FASTER
@@Daniel636-j7l So fast!
Fun fact
In Sonic2 on Game Gear and Master System, the first boss is an antlion robot
Also both Sonic2 from Master System and Game Gear and Genesis/MegaDrive came out before SonicCD
yesss i watch alexy for all his r2 content, this is great!! you should collab with him and maybe do a podcast or stream about the level.
1:48 seems like they learned from their mistakes! Well… temporarily
I accidentally stumbled into that old video yesterday and today a follow up
Good timing!
The techno power remix (Bad future) slaps damn good.
im going to try to make the bad future remix of dubious depths
I would love to see Sega bring back scrapped levels like this like how they did with Mirage Saloon
I am a massive sonic CD nerd so it pains me that i found this video a year late
The level was most likely scrapped cause it didnt fit with the game's themes, thats likely what he ohshima meant by "doesnt match Sonic's speed"
They had delayed the game twice and ohshima, being the original creator of sonic and his world, was given full creative freedom over the game and just about as much time an budget as he wanted
The game was ohshima's strictly talored masterpiece, so he had a very specific idea and theme that he made sure was present through the entire game
Dubious Depths was probably just not a fit for that concept
3:33 that clutch was crazyyyy
Dubious Depths’ bass slaps so hard Btw
I guess it was obvious since CD is just a sonic 1 remake (similarly to sonic 2 but STILL)that the second level would be a dungeon of sorts in reminiscence to marble zone and it's ancient ruins,y know,like how palmtree panic is a green hill doppleganger or collision chaos is that of spring yard,i think there might be a pattern in here,now we all know that marble is easily one of the most rage inducing level's if you rely on speed too much and don't remember the layout too well,so it's natural that DD or RR would replicate that ruining the fast-paced sonic action of the game,so it might've got scrapped because they were trying avoid having the game being too slow... though collision chaos and metallic madness seem to suffer the exact issue
Or,to be fair,R2 could pull a tidal tempest which is a discount version of labyrinth which isn't as triggering as the level it is based on and make it so that you can traverse through the depths without being hit too much or slowing down
Bruh you're so right lmao, now that I think about it the zone order almost exactly matches that of Sonic 1: the first, a tropical like level; the second, some underground cave/structure (that was scrapped from CD); the third, a casino like level (that acts as the second in CD); the fourth, a water level; the fifth, a level related to shiny things, the sixth, Eggman's headquarters (in this case Sonic cd differs because Stardust Speedway is more like the zone or city where Eggman resides and not the plant or building itself).
@@jorgitoislamico4224 stardust speedway is based after starlight zone both taking place in these huge yet pretty towns/citys that already are or are going to be under Eggman's influence, can't seem to find what sonic 1 level's wacky workbench and quartz quadrant correlate to,so they must be two extra level's they've made up in order to make the game more interesting or something like that
I would absolutely love to eventually hear all the tracks for this level!
I'd love to see a fan project on this unused zone
Which zone? Each round in Sonic CD has three of them.
@@GabePuratekuta actually a fan game with every unused zone would be cool
When I read the title of this video, I couldn't believe it. It's a childhood dream coming true
you know what i LOVE Sonic CD Cuz of Dubious Depths Zone!
i wish this Zone was Made in the Final Game :(
that explains why the little planet track slaps
The mystery is almost solved, once we know for sure that thats the true name we are gonna have to somehow make a level designed like that
MasterDreamcaster did release videos showing him going into his DMs with Naoto Ohshima on his channel FLYKING, confirming that the name is indeed Dubious Depths.
3:53
DUDE I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE SONG WAS WEIRD. IT SEEMED SO UNFITTING AND SOUNDED LIKE A LEVEL THEME BUT I COULDNT TELL WHY
I always thought Sonic CD was more a take on exploration, not speed. So I’m not sure why they would cut Dubious Depths due to lack of speed, it should be what the game is going for. I would have loved to see a completed version of Dubious Depths but I’m enjoying the mystery so far so I don’t want the restoration to happen anytime soon.
I mean sonic cd has his momentum moments , so it makes sense
It could have been Marble Zone levels of slow I guess
@@Reaga_artz True, like Palmtree Panic and Stardust Speedway I found to be a lot faster then the other levels
Speed is needed for timetravel and Speedruning, if the zone I'd too abrasive to keeping the speed up you gotta kill it
@@TechBlade9000 I guess some people thought of Sonic CD as a speed game as all the other ones were and so they probably tried to play the fastest they could.
I really enjoy hearing about lost/scrapped Sonic stuff
I'm late to this video, but when I saw the concept art for the diagram of Little Planet, I thought the percentages on the pic represented your overall progress throughout the game and not how much influence Dr. Eggman had on the planet. You learn something new everyday.
Dubious depths is a way better name than ridicule root… but relic ruin is better than all of them so i wish that was it
I feel like we now have enough for talented people in the community to make decent enough guesstimations at Dubious Depths in a similar way to how fans tried to fill out the likes of Wood Zone and Sand Hill zone.
My conclusion to this is that Sonic fans care much more about Sonic than the original devs do. Similar to Star Wars fans racking their brains to try and tie loose ends that the writers didn't care about, or Toriyama forgetting everything about Dragon Ball.
come on tetra, what’s the name, there’s no time to waste with a story!
Lol
TetraBitGaming finally answered our prayers!
I hope we can find the sonic 1 prototype soon but it’s highly unlikely but I hope
I’m so happy we finally got the real name! I seriously want to see more of this zone 😭
i personally believe mazin might've meant to say Radicle Root, as a radicle is the first part of a seed that emerges during germination. this is just speculation on my part though
i was hoping it was R2 omg. and little planet’s theme was always one of my fav sonic tracks so to see that level supposed have that song makes me wish we got it.
Ridicule root, and the rainbows.... It all makes sense lol 🤣
0:25 if you read the comments the person is calling tetra stupid cuz of the name being “relic ruins” they thought.they are the one stupid for not knowing it was a fan made name, and don’t call him stupid.
The erosion percentage made me realize Stardust Speedway was just built by Eggman and now I feel dumb haha. I always thought it was strange that an uninhabited planet with such a focus on greenery had a giant city but now that I think about it in this context, obviously it was never there to begin with. I also must say, Dubious Depths is kind of a scary name for a level 2. I always thought Collision Chaos was a bit much but Dubious Depths is even more intense
I feel like there’s always something sonic related going around
I mean to be fair, it IS stuff from 30 years ago, stuff that was ultimately scrapped too might I add.
So it's not really shocking their memory of it's a bit hazy
5:03 ive heard that song so many times and i never thought it was supposed be (maybe) the good future track for dubious depths