Is rock REALLY dying??
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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Is rock popular again? Is hip-hop dying? Is country taking over? I react to Rick Beato's take.
Rick Beato's video: • If You’re A Musician I...
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Rick is right about fitting all those parts into one song. What you don’t understand, is that all those parts don’t have to be a minute or longer which is what the Beatles did and they were memorable.
when you made the connection of the NBA being tied to Hip Hop culture, it reminded me of how WWE was hugely tied to 2000's Rock / Metal culture for years.
WWE went so fucking hard with the rock/metal early 00s era.
That Motorhead Triple H theme still slaps 🤘🤘
Yes, nu-metal dominated WWE. lol
@@joesmith8725 it repps a lot of metallic hardcore now
Motionless in white is literally Rheas theme song lol
I’ve started saying Here’s The Thing in every day conversations and no one understands. Love it.
It's funny. I grew up saying it all the time. People used to tease me about it.
Sean Strickland if youre a UFC guy lmao
I feel disappointed when Finn says "HITT" and Black Veil Brides does not appear right after.
Same!!
Ive always said that lmao, its a pretty common thing people say.
Thing with smells like teen spirit is it seems long when you look at the timestamp but when you’re listening to it, it flies by really fast. Which I think is a testament on how great the song is.
The amazing thing is that most people don't know the lyrics despite it being one of the biggest songs all time. It's really poorly engineered too imo. The song is so incredible and such genius, but it's funny that they had no idea how much it was going to blow up, some dudes with PhDs in sound engineering and suits and ties would have spent eight figures editing and perfecting the audio and mixing. That would've driven Kurt crazy, though, and probably would've smashed his guitar and put out a cigarette in their faces.
The version that is played on the radio has a substantial part of the guitar solo cut out too, so most people don't hear the full song....but I agree, even the album version doesn't FEEL like a 5 minute song.
@@Necromass-mc3jo It used to be (up until the pandemic) but people post pandemic have gotten sick of overly polished and artificial songs. There’s a reason why Zach Bryan and Noah Kahan have such large and diehard fanbases that sing every lyric to every damn song.
Good songwriting ist not to cram some hooks in 2 min.
Good songwriting is writing 8 min. that feel like 2
@@SconnerStudiosyou could not be more wrong. Smells like Teen Spirit was purposely engineered and mixed that way. Kurt did not want it to sound over polished. You’re confusing an academic approach to production with a band that was consciously and sonically coming from a punk ideology
The grunge bands maybe weren’t meant to be radio hits and perhaps more vibe albums. A lot of bands like Led Zepplin , Pink Floyd , the who , Queen had crazy long songs and sold hella records in their era too.
Basically hip-hop, or at least melodic trap is in its hair metal phase
That was around the 2000's with bling rap. You know, 50Cent, Ludacris, Nelly, etc. This hasn't been popular since 2005. I'd reckon crunk could also fit the bill.
@@Iyashikei-t4u I’d have to agree with you. Rap isn’t in its hair metal phase. Instead, it’s in its radio rock phase. 2008-2014 era Blog Rap (Kendrick Lamar, J Cole, Kid Cudi, early Drake, etc) was hip hop’s grunge, emo and soundcloud rap was its version of nu metal and punk, while melodic trap, drill, and rage (ie Playboi Carti and his acolytes) are the sounds that mainstream will likely die with.
The funny thing is that Bling Era Rap (2003-2007) wasn’t even all that popular on the charts and featured a serious sales decline for the genre. It was that very sales decline that lead to the Blog Era developing so fans could easily find the music they actually wanted to listen to (remember, like country music, rap is all about storytelling, it only does it in an inner city context).
@@luke_cohen1 Yeah, it wasn't as popular as G-funk or trap. I still remember some of them because I was a tween in the tail end of the era. However at least where I'm from most people never got into blog rap. It was all crunk here. Now that I'm thinking about it, what could you even compare crunk with?
@@Iyashikei-t4u Crunk=Hair Metal. In fact, any genre from the South may as well be rap's version of heavy metal and has been treated in much the same way.
@@Iyashikei-t4ucrunk is hair metal of rap. Memphis rap is the black metal of rap. That shit gets hella dark
Those 90’s grunge songs were so long because the guitars were sludgy and the vocals were dragged out. “iiiiiiiiiiiiimmmm the maaaaaaaannnn in the booox” “jeremmmyyy spoooke innn claaaayaaassss toooddaaaaaayyyy”
5 minutes is long now? Lmao
@@thatguyforte I know right! I always thought that was normal. Too $hort used to have them 8 minute long songs back in the late 80’s / early 90’s too 🤷♂️
I miss Layne Staley & Alice in Chains
The Rock is 51. He's not young, but I wouldn't say he's dying. Honestly, that's kinda rude.
Hate that this made me laugh
Not the actor. _The genre!_
Lots of the shorter songs in the 60s were due to restrictions on vinyl.
Singles on vinyl were more popular vs albums also, learned that researching why all the Christmas songs are from that era. So with the CDs and more space to fit them, they got longer. Then we get to now with tiktok and shorter attention spans with millions are you fingertips, naturally shorter songs will come full circle but with a diff purpose.
Ill also add that from an interview with RUSS, believe i sent that one to you in a message, the claim to country's rise is that those listeners were the last to join streaming because theyd still buy CDs and albums and such.
They also really needed radio play, and the stations rewarded shorter songs with more of it
Let me add that Buddy Holly and others in the genre made songs sometimes barely even longer than *1 minute.*
The songs centered around one musical idea and had a few very simple, repetitive lines.
Yep, and the reason why the songs are all short today is because of the way Spotify is monetised, it encourages artists to do more shorter songs, you get the same renumeration for a play for a 1.45 half finished track as for a 3.33 or 5 minute song that's actually been completed. That's the complaint.
No genre of music will ever really die.
ACDC said it best. Rock and Roll Ain't Noise Pollution, Rock and Roll Won't Never Die!
There's no more music by castrati, and they're never coming back.
Rock and Roll is DEAD! I don't like it, but it's a fact. What gets called rock these days tends to sound more like an ad for something than an actual song.
@@HeelSection3825nooo, it’s not dead! Just in a lull. Everything always comes back around. It’s up to us to keep rock alive!
@@HeelSection3825 but then... Green Day and Blink182 bring out new material. Or tickets for When We Were Young sell for hundreds...
Rock n Roll isn't dead, it just costs an arm and a leg.
Hip hop is just coming out of its hair metal cock rock phase. Give it a little bit and some new artist will emerge who completely reinvents and reinvigorates it.
Nah, it already happened in the mid 2000's when Kanye killed Bling era rap like 50 Cent.
@@JoinMeInDeathBabyhip-hop peaked in the 2010s
Hip hop is DEAD
@@ey3z4ya WRONG. Hip Hop peaked with Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer.
@@elchicharron9503I can't tell if you're joking lol.
As a 23 old hip hop head i grew up during the blog era of the late 00s early 2010s with the amergence of drake Kendrick j cole Tyler mac Gambino and of course Kanye was still in his bag since around 2014 hip hop especially in the mainstream has been going downhill with the oversaturated sound of trap rap getting worse as the years go by not to say that Travis Scott and future dont have good music but trap has kinda become the hair metal of hip hop with a lot of mid music being made but on the bright sound underground hip hop has definitely been getting bigger with Griselda Freddie Gibbs earl sweatshirt and manny more getting more recognition killer mike just won three Grammys so we will definitely see a shift coming soon it might be rock it might be underground hip hop
Finn "I have no attention span" McKenty
I love counting how many times he says "Like".
I’m sorry but 4-5 min songs are not long songs
Maybe for a punk rock song lol
Finn's attention span is ridiculous. It's legit like a child's brain. 5 minutes is not "brutal" or a long time when you can write a good song. I guess if you're staring at the minutes going by waiting for the next chorus, or for the next 2 minute pop tune to come on after this song it would be "brutal" for you. Smells Like Teen Spirit is still a great song and I never paid attention to its length. I'm sure Nevermind will fall to a 5 instead of a 10 now because of the "long" songs. 😆
More complexity isn't inherently superior, but if done well, it is much more interesting to listen to the 20th or 100th time, which gives it staying power and relevance.
I think it's hard to avoid the notion that whilst it isn't necessarily better, people to some extend do place some degree of additional value on it. And you can see it in almost everything, not just music. It's quite rare, outside of very select art movements, or general design that we really celebrate minimalism as an ethos.
I was expecting that hardcore guy who gave the bandmate estrogen video from Finn. I would love to hear his take but it’s probably in the pipeline.
😂😂😂
Rick Beato, Finn McKenty, and Anthony Fantano...the father, the son, the holy spirit
😇
🙏
The 3 kings
Amen break🙏
@@JoinMeInDeathBabylmao
Anthony Fantano is ultra cringe
@@davyboy9397 ratio
I think hip-hop has followed rock's mistakes, especially with becoming conservative and formulaic, which leads to being uninspired.
Hip Hop is having a similar arc to what rock did honestly. Both started with the stuff that nerds think is the pinnacle of the genre (Wu-Tang, Beatles), moved on to stuff that was popular at the time but people think is kind of corny now (Bling Rap, Dad Rock), had their “alternative” phase that was the height of the genre (SoundCloud Rap, Grunge), and then declined as their sound became formulaic and uninspired.
So basically hip hop is in its butt rock stage, with no hope in sight as it eventually moves to its indie folk phase.
That's basically popular music history.
Before rock, there was blues rock. Before blues rock, there was jazz. Before jazz, there were big bands. Before big bands, there was 20th century classical or Broadway. ALL of these genres were the mainstream of their time and had a very similar arc of rise and decline. I'm convinced that this is just the natural life circle of genres.
I never look at the charts. Hardly anything I listen to is top 50.
Same, so much good music out there if you look for it.
I too am perfectly content to live in my little musical bubble, thank you very much
Yeah. This is that era of music where The Billboards are more "out of touch" with people since The Sixties or something. Because? I get a feeling that some of these underground artists are gonna hit it big or at least half of them.
Songs aren’t necessarily better because they’re long, but they’re also not necessarily worse for it either. Maybe I’m biased having grown up listening to Metallica and their 7-8 min long songs, but if a song’s good and I’m enjoying it, I don’t mind it being 4-5 min in the slightest
That being said, over the years I’ve gotten better at being more concise with my songwriting and the shorter songs are most likely the better ones with the most chance of getting picked up, if at all haha
I disagree with Finn. Its more of a Goldie locks situation. Our brains are built on pattern recognition. Hence, the more complicated something is the more frustrating it is to our brains. If our brain can't find any pattern or repetition then our brain will likely write it off as noise. The opposite will also frustrate our brains. If we can easily dissect something to its atomic levels, without any complexity/changes then our brains have nothing keeping them engaged. The songs can easily become very annoying to our brains. I think that is more along the lines Rick was getting at with the Beatles songs. That Tate McCrae song has a higher potential to annoy someone that the Beatles songs. It really just depends on the person and their mood on what balance between changes and repetition.
Finn, you're wrong about Rick's outlook being instrument biased. Interesting chord changes inspire interesting vocal melodies and that is why hyper basic songs get to where they all sound the same. He is well aware that great vocals are the most important part of music. You can write the most beautiful musical piece, or even the most brutal death metal song but if the vocals suck, the song sucks. Great vocals can bring up a mediocre, nothing special piece of music too. Chord progressions are everything in most types of music and that's why he emphasizes having different parts.
This is a very rockist POV
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA It applies to country and pop as well. I agree, not so much hip-hop, WAP is a perfect example of that. Anything with a vocal melody or even music like metal where the guitar parts really provide all the melody, interesting chord progressions make for more interesting music. Love the show man, not trying to be argumentative or anything. I'd definitely invite you to the BBQ!
Let's bring it back to 1998 when Dance was a solid 15%
How about 0%.
Word!
Clubbers rejoice
More complexity doesn't make a song better, it makes it more interesting.
modern hip hop fucking sucks. how is this surprising
How TF is Zach Bryan and Kacey Musgraves rock music?
I think rock is slowly coming back but, with the bands and artists I've seen get any buzz are from UK, Australia and, other parts of Europe.
Rick looks at a song from the perspective of a musician. I do the same thing. If there isn't a whole lot going on then it usually gets boring. It's just the way the mind of a musician works. You can't just turn it off and enjoy the song for what it is sometimes. I'm the same way. It's kind of a curse that comes with playing music. So I understand Rick's perspective, though I may not always agree with everything he says. But everyone is different, I don't agree with you all the time either. Interesting video
That is a ROCK musician’s point of view. Pop artists and writers see it very differently.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA Which is exactly why pop isn't interesting! And what do pop "artists" know about music anyway?!? How many of those ATTRACTIVE DANCERS actually write their own songs???
And reggaeton is reggaeton, is not rap nor hip hop
I think the 90s songs were longer because slower tempos became more popular and a slow tempo means it takes longer to fit the verse, chorus, and bridge in there.
I agree. More ballads and anthems and emo to get their point across
I feel like piano popping off in 2021 could be due to the pandemic and artists probably wanting to create more dramatic and intimate songs in that time
A lot of pop music from the pandemic (and now) sounds slower and is more like something you’d listen to at home instead of in the car.
The future of rock will be led by women, these women are 3 sisters from Mexico called The Warning. Go support them so rock can be mainstream again.
It's easy to lose track of the fact that in the world of mainstream music bands like Arctic Monkeys, U2, Billy Joel, Gorillaz are considered part of the rock landscape.
Exactly
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA I would have never really thought about that myself until I joined an indie pop group to cure myself of the COVID lockdown blues. Going from cross-over thrash to this has been mind bending in the best way.
Also in Latin music, regional music has surpassed reggaeton lately. Which also explains the use of guitars. Artists like Peso Pluma, Xavi, and Grupo Frontera have been dominating Latin charts.
Also Known As Being Backed By The Sinaloa Cartel
2020s rap is so mid rn😭
I thought it was bad last decade. But it is unlistenable now.
I wonder what part of Smells Like Teen Spirit Finn thinks wold be good to pull from it to make it half the length. A verse and a chorus, the solo, the intro, half the outro? You would have to basically pull all of those parts to make it half the length.
The fact that he said he was surprised to see how long it actually was I think is a testament to the songwriting, and proof that 5 minutes can actually work for some songs, if done well.
Yep agreed
It's ridiculous to say that a good song has to be a certain length. Look how big artists like Pink Floyd or Tool have gotten over the years. It's pretty rare to hear a song by either one of those bands that clocks in at less than 5 minutes.
Exactly. That's why length is irrelevant. If the song is good the throughout you don't care how long it is.
No genre dies. I mean jazz still has its place and jazz hasn’t been mainstream popular for 80 years. Genres usually start a subcultures, if they become popular enough or industry, things they can make enough money out of them, they become culture, and then they fade back into being a subculture again. Take punk as an example, there are plenty of new punk bands coming out all the time, you just don’t know about it unless you go looking for it or are in the scene. Because the music industry has moved onto the latest round of shit. People want to act like if something isn’t in the top 50, then it isn’t being made. This is what happens when you let taste makers, decide what you hear. It gives you the illusion that other things don’t even exist.
Rock isn't dead. It just has to start wearing diapers again soon
Not gonna lie, Rick and Finn are my favorite RUclips music people/channels
Hip hop is trash now…way too many way mumble trash and overly sexualized stripper rap(as you call it) I haven’t listen to much rap in years other than older stuff. Rock for me is 50 50…
I still love my 90s rock and has found newer rock acts that I’m enjoying but I’m not on tic tok and it’s not easy to find newer finds… all the rock stations are gone… so if I check out reaction videos on bands that is how I discover new music.
All those older songs I still enjoy…Nirvana, PJ, Soundgarden etc… if you are enjoying it you won’t notice it’s long. Plus my attention span is not bad… everything today is now, and quick…fast food style and it’s not good. Shorter doesn’t mean better, it’s just rushed with nothing behind it..
Hip hop is dying due to the lack of innovation. The ppl that were innovating have been killed off Peep Juice XXX. Ppl are tired of the auto tune. But stripper rap has been here since lil kim & Foxxy Brown. It’s lot going anywhere. Same with trap drums. J Cole said it best the new sound is trap drums in Pop Songs.
The guy who turned down the opportunity to sign the Beatles also thought rock music was on it's way out.
Rock will never die.
Reaggaeton is a fusion of Caribbean music like reggae and dance hall music mixed up with Latin tropical island beats and singing, chanting and rapping style with Spanglish. Big among Cubans, Puerto Ricans,, Dominicans, Mexicans, etc.. Groups like Daddy Yankee, Bad Bunny, Ivy Queen, Ozuna, Tego Calderon, Karol G, Don Omar, Pitbull, Shakira, etc.
Watch the Fast and Furious movies, you'll get a bunch of reggaton songs there lol
The thing about great memorable songs is that even if they’re super long, they don’t feel that way when you’re listening because of how engaging they are.
And of course songs don’t need to be long or complex to be great, it just seems like a lot of pop songs are intentionally short so they can drive home that vocal hook or repetitive chorus so it gets stuck in your head by the time the song is over; as far as the record labels are concerned, it’s just a product to be sold.
the song length trends are interesting, but i think it's worth considering and remembering how music consumption has changed across those decades.
the '50s and '60s were an era of 7" singles, so it could be advantageous to write short, tight songs. by the 90s you had cassingles, and with the emergence of the CD it was much easier to make longer-winded music. today, while we have basically infinite space to make songs of any length, there are cultural and technological factors that favor short tight songs.
The biggest thing with Rap/Hip-Hop now is it's more about the image than it is the music. Hair Metal went through that same phase and eventually lost its popularity as well.
Restraint in art is probably the most difficult, but also the most important thing.
Music will get better when artist stop being lazy and greedy and learn to play an instrument again. Have a heart in music instead of easy money.
That 2021 piano boom has to be from Driver's License, the Adele album from that year, and I think Tate McRae's breakout song had piano too.
Good call, I bet that’s right
I feel like the reason Latin is so low is cuz I'd imagine that that's the artists that make latin music, but not latin pop, so stuff like mariachi music, as opposed to something like Bad Bunny. And when you asked about the songs that don't have drum/bass, I feel like most of those songs are those that just have piano/vocals or guitar/vocals, since that covers a lot of songs, especially in the folk and pop scene
Good video, Finn! As a mix and mastering engineer, I honestly think Rick’s take on the decline of Rap is spot on: listeners are just tired with that once-ubiquitous 808 drum vibe (with the cricket-chirp Hi Hats etc). That drum sound and correlative patterns and BPMs has been dominant for a decade now - a LOOOONG time in the modern world.
About the philosophy of making art; I think it’s possible to get the best product by writing all the ideas down, sometimes more than what you need, then editing your work down to the best parts and structuring it concisely
The thing is, since about 2010, Rock doesn’t really mean Rock anymore.
When I think Rock music my mind thinks Hard Rock and goes immediately to Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Guns N Roses, Smashing Pumpkins, AC/DC, Nickelback, Creed, etc etc.
Since 2010, Rock music doesn’t mean that anymore, Rock means now, Indie, Country, Guitar Pop, and Singer Songwriter stuff.
So the Rock charts is mainly Indie and Guitar PoP music like The Black Keys, Arctic Monkeys, Imagine Dragons etc etc.
Rock music doesn’t mean what it used to mean anymore
I think the fact that you don't realize just how long Smells Like Teen Spirit is proves that the song used its whole runtime effectively. A song can be as long as the artist wants as long as it keeps you hooked for the whole thing in my opinion
Agreed
The biggest example of "why you should care what's popular" is Post Malone. We've heard him cover rock song on YT and at his live shows. We've seen him cover Country, He's talked about a country album. He's extremely versatile. He could have broken in to any genre he wanted. What music does he primarily make? He makes what was popular when he broke in: HipHop/Rap/Pop. Point being, a lot of the talented people getting in to and making new music are going to lean towards making music that they think will make them successful. That's dictated by what's popular at the moment. Of course there are outliers. That's how bands like Spiritbox and Sleep Token stood out. But we aren't talking about the outliers. We're taking about whats popular and what's going to influence the majority of new artists. So, the next Post Malone? What music are they going to be making?
Great topic of discussion!
I would argue that what is more important than the length of a song is the "engagement".
If a song is long but engaging, it's a good song; just cause a song is short, doesn't mean it's engaging.
With that said, part of making an engaging song is making it only as long as it "needs" to be, so cutting out as much filler and redundant moments as possible can help with that, along with creating interest after every few bars.
Damn Finn likes the worst rap lol Ratchet stripper rap??? Good god man
Simpler songs are, generally, easy come, easy go, whereas even a bit more complexity could offer more "surface area" to grab on to, making it stickier. Melody still got to be catchy, singing got to deliver, but those things being equal, some complexity may help song stand out. It's not like Beatles crammed all those extra things into every song, just enough in each to have more opportunities to be memorable.
The NFL does revolve around 1 artist: Taylor Swift lmao! 😂
the next kurt cobain/nirvana is out there somewhere practicing in a basement on an independent label in their city. i just know it. there needs to be another nirvana style musical revolution.
MGK made Rock music popular again, but this time I'm being unironic and serious. MGK also made it unpopular by abandoning it again recently. Hopefully he will make it popular again, again.
MGK is not doing anything with Rock on his own. Cmon Linkin Park still has more influence on the whole scene's popularity
@ to a very limited extent, the current drive for the newer generation's rock intake is driven by the alternative and indie scenes with a plethora of different scenes that oppose the dude bro rock image that bands like linkin park is usually associated with. For an example of such a scene see zoomer gaze, if we're bringing in linkin park as a comparision believe it or not deftones is more influential than linkin park for the newer generation of bands. Infact the biggest new blood in rock for the past 2 years have been mainly female fronted bands or solo artists like beabadoobee and olivia rodriguez both who eclipse BMTH the 'biggest' rock and metal band millenials want to have you believe in terms of monthly listeners.
nah, gen z tik toker are finding about about rock from the 2000s
@@EnhanXhater take. Your bias is preventing you from seeing reality
@@Linkmitch agree with you about Deftones. Also, I didn't take into account the fact that LPs always were influential and didn't receive an increase in popularity as much as some new bands in the genre.
Nu Metal Cowboy - once again, Fred is ahead of the game.
Younger bands such as The Warning and Plush are driving hard rock back into the mainstream. We just have to be less "gatekeepy" and more welcoming to music that's not necessarily as heavy, but equally as good as the metal bands.
Agreed! Im in my late 50’s and discovered AlterBridge about 8 yrs ago, and wondered where the hell was I to have missed all their great music til then!!? Its not on the radio near enough and mass media never pushed them, but they are every bit as great and talented a hard rock/alt metal band as I have ever heard in my whole life as a rock/metal fan! Must be many others i missed for the same reasons? (Although I’m aware of the two bands you mentioned and like them)👍
Finn talking about Bad Bunny, never thought I'd be here for it, but I'm all for it. But yeah, Bad Bunny is massive worldwide.
I think rock is growing and the metal grows along with it. You can see it in many bands numbers compared to 2018. Those “rock” bands are just gateway into more metal. That’s why we have seen bad omens, falling in reverse, bmth, & sleep token grow more
But we're talking about Rock and Roll. Not metal. I don't like that SCREAMING crap. I want some good, melodic, hard rock.
@@HeelSection3825 I know that but I’m just saying that it’s nice other sub genres are going along with it. I understand it’s not those that are on the charts though .
Your view on long songs is terrible. You prefer shorter songs because you're a quick fix type of person, but some people, especially actual music and rockn roll lovers enjoy a lot more of what what goes into making a great rock song. It's just not about a catchy tune, it's a lot of things like talent, rhythm, expression, pure adrenaline, feeling, I can go on and on. Take the song "machine gun" by jimi hendrix for example, imagine that being a 2 minute song.... When a band or guitar playing is really rocking out you never wanted to end, and these "long songs" are a by-product of that
Totally agree.
As usual, mainstream articles, charts, etc, have no idea what they're talking about. Rock music is perhaps the most misunderstood genre of all these days, with most people forgetting what it actually is and lumping in a whole bunch of material from other genres and claim it's all rock for some reason. Basically Hip Hop is down, Country is up, can't really say much about Rock as it's so awfully mis-categorized... As for your tangent on popularity, I have to disagree with you there. Sure, popular things make more money. However there is no equity in life. The fact that for example Pop music is very popular doesn't mean that every Pop musician is rich and famous. In fact it's mostly the top of the pyramid of Pop music that make all the money with the rest of the Pop artists fighting over the scraps and are honestly no better off, if not outright worst off, than say Metal artists who are playing a significantly less popular music genre. My point is that it's not so much how big the pie is but rather how much of the pie you're actually getting as an artist. While this concept is true for all genres, it's much more pronounced in the more popular ones.
Longtime hip hop head to explain why your rocker take on rap is right:
Hip hop i think has remained relevance for so long in large part bc it is such a wildly varied genre that doesn't really need to challenge listeners to switch up the song, the basic elements are simple + samples have been integral from the start.
As this has continued over time, labels have gotten more and more greedy, wanting to create artists out of nothing and abuse the previously mentioned qualities of the genre to cut out the people who made hip hop to begin with. Industry plants with no talent are pushed bc the labels can push them into worse deals, theres so many rappers and such a low bar that good rappers dont get touched by labels that dont wanna give any leverage
These things have resulted in a stylistic, but even worse cultural + thematic, feedback loop in popular rap music. Anyone who has been aware of popular rap for the last 20 years can now easily + relevantly criticize most popular rap. Anybody listening to it can't do it much longer and are complaining, and underground rap fans are growing in negativity toward the mainstream (semi punk attitudes w/ intentionally shit mixing and confrontational tempo changes are key aspects of underground acts like xaviersobased, who i think is v good)
This is compounded into a doomsday sentiment in the rap community bc the underground is very fragmented, with the biggest underground artists being embraced by some but largely rejected by old heads and established rap media institutions (if they are ever mentioned)
Also a lot of underground and experimental hiphop artists have been dropping songs that are between 1-2 minutes, sometimes even less, for a while now. I think that has been trending up along with long ass albums
country is rising because of crossover culture.
I think that the fact that you thought that Smells Like Teen Spirit was 2 minutes long is proof that the song is better written. Because you're enjoying it so much that time flies when you listen to it.
Being concise is sometimes necessary, but sometimes you want to read a book and not a short story, because you just can't develop the depth of a novel on 3 pages. Could Child In Time have been 7 minutes instead of 10 and still be a great song? Probably. But it definitely couldn't have been less than that without losing all of the development that makes the song great, and that's still over 100% longer than what you said is appropriate.
Oh for fucks sake. Rock isnt dead, punk isnt dead, metal isnt dead. It isnt the huge seller that it was in the 80s, but many of those "metal bands" were pop acts called metal. The heavier stuff was always less popular. Go to a show now, if the band is putting on a good show you see people going nuts, including younger generations
Dammit man, your take on song lengths is complete dogwater. Music that is just about the big hooks/choruses with throw-away verses are so damn boring. Plus, when those songs are like < 3 min long, people put them on repeat anyway.
Wtf is the Latin genre? Music sung in Spanish/spanglish? Music made by people of Latin American descent?
Okay, stupid question. Who is the Finn Mckenty of genre literature on social media? Is there someone out there like FM who can give such concise insights as regards to horror literature, science-fiction, dark fantasy, and anything that's brilliantly extreme in books over the past 50 years? People still read but can they plug in on YT and connect with people who talk about what it is that's a part of underground literature, or even above ground but demented and original? If that sort of thing is out there then I would like to know. Thank you.
Rick is right the songs in the early to mid '90s had better songs and their lengths are justified they made use of the time to flesh the tracks out and most importantly their classics now so time has proven what rock said is true
Good because hip-hop is unbearably bad. Audio diarrhea. Depraved lyrics. Promoting felonious behavior
I think we are approaching a bit of a more raw, folky, stripped back, less digital/electronic era. Some huge artists right now are Zach Bryan, Morgan Wallen, Billy Strings, Noah Kahan, Chris Stapelton, Tyler Childers. I’m here for it.
I'm hoping for less digital and electronic. I want to hear talented people play real life instruments.
Do you genuinely like those artists? Or do you just like them more because there’s instruments? To me New folk feels like Bob Dylan without the soul or songwriting ability
@@ZhovtoBlakytniydigital and electronic stuff is great too tbh.
@@KD-vg2yn I love all of those artists (some more than others). Good question. I guess it’s sort of a roundabout answer though. I play guitar and I like guitar music, especially acoustic, therefore I gravitate towards music with those instruments. Check out the album “Home” by Billy Strings or DeAnn by Zach Bryan. Ton of soul and passion in both. DeAnn has a very cool story on how it came about.
I would say "Yeah, like Rainbow Kitten Surprise" but, they just sold out and went over produced pop so.....hoping someone a bit more heavy than those artists you named but still with a raw sound come to the fore front. Fingers crossed!
@23:20 Being short and concise doesn’t work for all forms of art, particularly prog rock. I get it’s not for everyone. You either “get it” or you don’t.
Also, I think "country" is getting more popular because so much country now is really just pop with a souther twang. I'd call most of the popular country artists pop artists. Not BECAUSE they're popular, but because they sound more like pop than country. Can southern pop be a genre, like souther rock is?
I call it chicken fried bubble gum.
They'll never get the credit but I do think Shinedown deserves respect for keeping rock music afloat during its decline in the 2010's, There were other bands that had moments of popularity (Greta Van Fleet and Ghost come to mind) but none were able to maintain the consistency that Shinedown did, And for as long as they did.
Honorable mentions go to Disturbed, Three Days Grace, Godsmack, Seether, and Linkin Park who also never faded in popularity.
I think the decline of hip hop is the decline of ”pop” hip hop. Underground is live n well, like in other genres that don’t make million$. Happens with all genres when capitalism is introduced to them. Pump as much as you can out of what ever thing is selling.
Honestly I still feel like judging music based on the billboard is extremely limiting, but its a thing people sort of take for granted as the main view of music more often in this era of the internet, despite the fact that the music industry is in total disarray between declining record sales and listens/views split between so many different platforms.
Hip hop has already peaked and is beginning to decline. Rock is still stalled in mediocrity but country is ascendent.
So you are telling me Mozart and Betthoven should have been more restrained? Sorry you are wrong on this one.
Nope! Try not to put words in other people's mouths, it's bad communication.
There's certainly a place for complex art, my point is simply that complexity doesn't have inherent value.
MORE SKA BANDS YES
You're right that it's hard to edit yourself, especially with writing. But while a song being long definitely doesn't mean it's better, it definitely doesn't mean it's bad either. Most of the best songs out there that really stick with you, take you on a journey and have more than one thing to say. And you're not going much of anywhere beyond one idea in a 2 minute song.
When it comes to the length of songs, I think it depends on the song. Are there songs were they needed to edit themselves? Sure. There are tons of artists out there with that issue. For instance, I love Dinosaur Jr., but there are definitely times where he needs to edit himself. Sometimes, a song needs to be long because it is that good. Think of songs like "November Rain" or "Champagne Supernova". Part of what made those songs great was the length. Those songs wouldn't have had the same impact or be as well remembered without all the extra stuff they crammed into those songs. It just depends on the song, and the approach that the artist chooses to take. Green Day never do long songs or solos, but their style and approach makes long songs unnecessary. There is no approach that is right for every artist 100% of the time.
That's a hot take to say those songs weren't better written than now. As far as what was popular then to now, the fact we are still talking about those songs today, versus what was big in 2017 says a lot. Also just because a song has a good, catchy hook doesn't mean it's well written, just well received. Those 2 don't always go hand in hand.
I think a song being concise doesn’t necessarily equal it being short. All concise means is that you are able to strip away the fat and leave what is important, but if there is a lot of meat on the bone the song might still end up long
I like Finn mckenty but I can’t definitely understand the hate he gets. I honestly think he’s autistic and not in an insulting way but he doesn’t seem to understand why people don’t like him. From this video alone he pissed me off twice once when he didn’t know the Beatles had short songs despite constantly dragging music that is 50+ years old he isn’t even informed on it. He also said Rick Beato doesn’t pay attention to lyrics and vocals which is also false, go look what he has to say about grunge artists and their vocals/lyrics. He also compliments the vocals and lyrics for modern country music. The fact is a lot of the pop he reviews have acceptable vocals such as Tate mcrae but it’s really nothing to make a video about. I enjoy Finn Mckentys videos and I’m not trying to be a hater/online dork but the way he acts like people just go out of their way to hate on him is pretty annoying, if you annoy people online you will get negative feedback it’s pretty simple.
Well yes obviously I’m autistic, and obviously I have unpopular opinions. Being on youtube is horrible for my mental health and I look forward to the day I can quit.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA that shouldn’t be how it is I wish the internet wasn’t like this
So, it's better be entertained by 4 bars for 2 minutes than 8 to 60 bars for an unlimited time or structure?
Stringing together complex musical patterns for extended periods of time is less impressive than naking a 4 bar catchy tune?
My friend, your world sounds boring, repetitive and tedious at best!
Many people would say yes, that is less impressive
Internet NPCs and the appeal to popularity @@FinnMckentyPRMBA
Those grunge songs are masterpieces. I know butch vig did get Nirvana to tighten their song lengths here and there.
Hey Finn you ever think about making a video on Memphis rap? The best way I can describe it as is the black metal of rap. Lot of satanic lyrics and supposedly sacrifices went into 8 mixtapes. I think you’d be interested as in the topic
My audience doesn’t want to watch content about hip hop, so I can’t.
Counter-argument to the brevity/concise concept: Avenged Sevenfold. They very deliberately DON'T edit themselves, and they do it on purpose. The fact that they ever got as popular as they did from like 2005-2012 is fucking wild, though I guess that makes them the exception that proves the rule.
what do you mean with edit? because avenged sevenfold themselves say that city of evil is lots of studio magic/editing
@@chegu613 He's talking about the last part of the video. Editing as in shortening a song's lenght.
Hip hop is going through what rock went through back in the '80s (hair rock/glam), until alt rock saved it during the '90s. Modern hip hop has gone to crap. It needs to be dragged out of the dumps. It was much better during the '80s, '90s and early '00s.
Rock has been doing well especially underground. College radio, alt/indie rock, punk, post punk/darkwave/goth, , metal, etc. New R&B and pop music is nice.
Country music is makin a recent surge. its good.
Fun vid. The thing about country is it basically has become pop rock w/ a steel guitar and occasional vocal twang. It has filled in the gap for bands like Hootie, DMB and Matchbox 20. It doesn't resemble country in any way from decades ago.
Also Finn, I gotta go w/ Rick on his final thoughts, though you BOTH present good points. The reality is, it's all perspective. What I believe Rick is trying to say is those songs are far more interesting on repeated listens- they hold up over time. There's more going on, more to find each listen, versus modern simple songs that become boring after the 3rd listen due to its simplicity. Secondly, song length is overrated. Teen Spirit is perfect at its length, so are pop songs at 2 minutes. It totally depends on what the artist is trying to produce or convey. It's like people who prefer a long RPG to a short action campaign. BOTH can be incredibly difficult to make great and the length doesn't necessarily make one or the other inferior.
Totally! The accepted belief among rock fans is that old music is better (including country) and that long, complex songs are better (in every genre). I’m not gonna change their minds on either.
Your favorite air drummer and mine, Rick Beato.
I used to love the guy, but lost respect when he didn’t help his son, when his son needed him the most
He reminds of Chris Gore and all those fake nerd bro guys that bash on actors and superhero shows and movies. He's one of those old guard Rolling Stones Magazine writers that thinks he should be The COOL Police or something.
@@benjaminwatt2436 🤔?
I’m going to try and be nice here but I may get a little mean. I’m done hiding my feelings on this. The 2014-2020 trap/emo rap music is some of if not the worst music I ever heard in my life. Repeating Gucci gang 200 times is not song writing it’s just annoying and meaningless. Like to even say that that stuff is good song writing is insane like how can anyone like that stuff. Like song writing has gotten so bad in mainstream music it’s insane. It’s also insane to say that writing songs that are simpler is way better song writing. Both can be good song writing if you do it right. Emo rap and trap have always been garbage song writing because you’re just repeating meaningless phrases for 2 min. The trap pop punk music is also awful like it’s so bad it has same problem just replace the meaningless lyrics for meaningful lyrics that are still receptive and sung by people who have zero vocal or rapping talent. Rap will prob always be the biggest music because for some reason for kids music isn’t songs or lyrics or meanings it’s banging bass and beats. Mainstream music is in the worst place it’s ever been.
It still blows my mind that you think any of the 2014-2020 Emo rap and trap music is anything but 0/10 song writing but guess your ears are very different then mine
Give it another 5 years or so and you’ll see that the consensus opinion will match mine. It happens every generation!
@@FinnMckentyPRMBAwill see but I think my opinion will stay the wildly accepted opinion. Reason I say that is every time opinions changed on a genre the genres was always good people just didn’t see it. I truly honestly think emo rap and trap is garbage music that I don’t think music nerds will ever like ever. But hey love ur videos ur so entertaining
They will. Look how much they love Limp Bizkit and MCR now.