Shoulder below pad in losing position is what makes most people hate the Kings move. If refs would call fouls properly in that situation it would squash the drama around Kings move.
Exactly this! I'm still a fairly new fan to this sport but to me it seems WAL events / refs let so many infractions go uncalled, but I do prefer the running fouls, PAL and WAF don't let any fuckery happen in setup or during the match, but ruin events with fouls deciding to many outcomes and generally stalling matches, I get that if you foul you have taken your self out but no one wants a win by fouls.
It's bullshit, that's not armwrestling, Larrat and Todd use that garbage that's why I stopped watching WAL. I you wanna see real armwrestling watch european.
They're not fouls if the arm is touching the pad and the elbow is above the pad. Even if the elbow is two inches above it's legal as long as it's over and there's arm contact. People need to move on from this already. It's part of the repertoire for most wrestlers even if they don't use it all the time.
@@Anax100 I dont hear anyone complaining about a shoulder above the table kings move while in a losing position and when refs start calling fouls properly when this move is performed illegally we will move on from it. Also the top 2 North American arm wrestlers gained their positions with this illegal application of the kings move. It makes us a joke to the rest of the arm wrestling world.
Thanks for this. I agree that use of a bone lock ought to be seen as a foul. Devon's desperation move against John was totally relying on his bone lock. John had good reason to be optimistic about his strength, but pulling a bone-locked 127kg Devon, with his foot hooked around the table leg and all his weight behind him to the pin was possibly impossible for anyone. Devon still had more stamina, so he legitimately won the supermatch, but probably not as a shutout stake. The move needs reviewed.
@Dave Pryor I agree. Devon’s kings move in Rd 1 was legit. He held the position with muscle power, not bone. John had a chance to pin him but he didn’t have the ability to master Devon’s wrist to quite make it happen.
Nonsense. There is no such thing anatomically as "bone lock." It is just extending your arm to its maximum. Do you really think that soft tissue isn't holding the arm together? Why shouldn't a competitor be allowed to use his anatomy to its fullest?
Literally have no clue what you're talking about. It was an open top roll round 1 , bone lock what the fuck are you talking about. People see someone in an open toproll and watched Engin and cry desperation move everytime. It's embarrassing
There is a difference between the way he and MT do it. MT is sitting there expelling 0 effort in his position, waiting for his opponent to get sick of his bullshit an quit. Just look at the blank expression on his face, that's the bone lock. When Devon does it his shoulder is still above the table, he's breathing hard and his whole body is shaking. Look at his match vs. Dave Chaffee, yes it is still king's move, but he's clearly still straining against the force of Dave, that's not a bone lock. MT is bitching and crying now because the top guys have figured out how to beat it and he has nothing else to go to.
@@voiceofarmwrestling your comment on Neil's podcast regarding this video --> It does make sense why this video has broken the Internet 👍. Please do another video on fingers & lower forearm and wrist / upper forearm! You have the monopoly on people talking succinctly on body parts relevant to the sport at the moment. Road to 75000 subs 👍
When MMA first started getting popular I'd hear lots of people complaining about how grappling and joint locks were cheating, boring and against the spirit of combat sports. I remember people complaining about having to watch a cuddling match. Over time well rounded fighters learned how to counter the strengths of grappling and spectators learned to appreciate the technique, play and counterplay of grappling. I feel like the kings move is similar for arm wrestling. One trick pony wrestlers will get beat while true champions will adapt their technique to counter. Ex. Devon's absolute domination over Michael KotT1. Devon had the tools to make Michael Todds king move a non-factor. In 5 years, not knowing how to counter a king's move will be no different than a great striker thinking he can be successful in MMA without ground defense.
It wasn't super clear how to "beat" the kings move, so let me try and summarize. Basically you should try and stay center table and climb up on the hand. Once you feel you have enough height, try and pin. Don't waste your energy trying to pin without the hand control.
If you know someone does the king's move then you should try to prevent a slip at all costs. Contain their hand, beat their hand and press. Flash pinning is best if possible. If the match goes to straps you are almost definitely screwed if you can't flash pin them. But if straps are applied you need it to be as loose as possible to make it easier to climb and press. Make space by flexixing your thumb and pronating a little bit while the strap is applied. After defeating the hand, pressing is the best way for a supermatch. You must put your frame vs bone lock. Otherwise if you top roll, you may take 1 or 2 matches, but will almost certainly tire out and lose every other match. Good luck
This is not directed to you. It does not take an arm wrestling expert to see when someone is just using their bone structure to rest. Their entire body pops up when they are pinned. No matter how often the experts try to educate people about the kings move, nothing will change the fact that average men have been arm wrestling for thousands of years and they have never tolerated someone using their whole body to try to win like that. It’s the equivalent of using both arms to try to win in the eyes of most people. Nothing will ever change what everyone can clearly see with their eyes. Those that rebuttal with rule claims should consider what people are actually talking about. You can start a league right now (if you have the money) and have a rule in it where you can use two hands to pull if your eyes are green. That would be an actual rule people would have to follow if they wanted to win your prize. Rules were created by people. They are not definitions. What some people are doing when criticizing the kings move is trying to more accurately define what it means to arm wrestle someone vs what you are allowed to do as per the rules. There is a reason why professional fighters lose respect from the public when they milk an accidental foul to get a win. Rules are, by nature, intended to be fair and not meant to be exploited.
Well said guys EASY fix. Competitors must hold out their arm for ref. The more you can straighten your arm, the more room you have to not be fouled. Armwrestling is a display of both STRENGTH and SKILL, bone lock is NEITHER 💪
12:22 What I noticed that Pushkar did was grab Michaels thumb and when he pressed it over pronated Michael and maybe disengaged his Kingsmove. Jerry's hand usually is open and so far below Michael cannot get full control on Jerry's pronation.
This is why I've taken an interest in arm wrestling and it has held my attention. It is a deceptively deep sport. It's exciting to watch, but there is also a lot to digest and analyze. It is explosive, but also strategic, like a good battle should be.
New arm wrestling fan here. Couldn't you just choose to _not_ engage with them when they pull a King's Move? It's a defensive position, right? They can't pin you with it, they have to get up and change to an offensive position in order to pin, no? So can't you just "wait" or be in a "neutral" position instead of expending so much energy trying to pin them when they're in a King's Move? Can't you be like, "Either get up from the King's Move, or we'll be standing here all day doing nothing."? Or am I misunderstanding the King's Move?
Yeah you could do that, the problem is that most ppl don't know that their opponent is in a king's move. When the opponent goes in a king's move you get this weird pressure, like you could easily pin them. This is why most ppl recklessly hit into the king's move. "The table monkeys" have multiple good videos about it
Assuming strengths are similar. Outside the straps yes it's not a big deal, you can wait center table unless you are crazy enough to try a hook the guy. In straps waiting center table is still draining bacause they are normally trying to play tug of war with you. And a lat drag takes almost no energy compared to you trying to stay in the center of the table and keep constant back pressure. So if you try and wait it out in the center of the table you will lose.
17:00 They hold at the begining and use muscles when the opponent still strong and fresh when the opponent is tired they can relax and depend only on the bone lock
Worst thing to do against a Kingsmove is keep going for a pin with sidepressure and pure force. It forces the opponent to use their advantage and snowball it to a point where you can not be beaten anymore. It therefore HARD counters non dynamic pure force sidepressure or inside based armwrestlers
If you watch Michael Todd's matches pretty closely, It's pretty obvious when his Kings move works his arm angle is about an inch above his bone lock. Every time someone hits his bone lock, he gives up really quickly. It's gotta be too painful to hold for more than a few seconds.
explain how someone’s scar tissue is “bone lock.” Kings move is basically them using a strap and pronation like a wrist wrench works. The only way seems to stay high and not lose your wrist…which is almost impossible once they drop with that wrist wrench type of twist.
My biggest issue is the use of the back of the elbow pad as a fulcrum on the arm itself, not the elbow. If their elbow starts to lift as they fulcrum off the back of the pad, it should be a foul. It’s an elbow pad, not an arm pad.
It's bullshit, that's not armwrestling, Larrat and Todd use that garbage that's why I stopped watching WAL. I you wanna see real armwrestling watch european.
@@DuckHunterGaming yup, my wrist is made out of butter, but I have a decent side. So I always start by pressing in armbreak position. But I find that very comfortable and never had problems
I had commented the same thing on Larry's video, I felt he showed noob skills in his match with Brandon, instead of holding and burning up his biceps he should have transitioned to the press. The press is the best way to beat the King's move and not burn yourself out in the process.
@@brbrd102 devon was at least 2 times stronger in that match than todd. and that's all watch a video from a year earlier todd beat devon. devon couldn't do anything with todd's kings move..
@@dwdaad764 It's because he was able to defeat MT's hand. Once you can defeat the hand it gives extra leverage on the arm and that bone lock. I think that's part of the reason why a flop wrist press is nice because you can perform a press further up someone's hand in a strap instead of closer to their wrist. At least this is the conclusion I've come to so far.
Looked like a foul to me, not a king's move. Hard to tell if he was on winning side though. In that case it isn't a king's move at that point. King's is defensive and you have to be above table.
Alright check this out, the last match Devon had with John he did a open top roll kings move but both head and shoulder above the table. This is good and in my opinion not a “cheat” move. Now Todd’s under the table bone chip action is and should be illegal. His elbow is rarely on the pad and his career would be over if not for the queens move
@@holliswilliams8426 that’s an idiotic statement. Obviously there is a huge difference. Why even take the time to say anything if you are going to say something so dumb?
@@holliswilliams8426Obviously a newbie to the sport. What Devon did Vs John round one is a legit move that's been used by Europeans and is not cheating. Please educate yourself on the sport before commenting
If someone pulls a king's move against you in the strap, you can pull your own king's move and play a game of endurance until you gain an advantage in your hand position. Then you can rise up in full stance, and hit a quick press.
I feel like the kings move ruins so many matches, many people don't want to watch the sport when this is allowed especially when shoulders below the table. Then it's not even arm wrestling anymore.
Shoulder has nothing to do with it. Stop referencing the shoulder. It's all about angles. With your little rule opinion, someone with massive shoulders would have a huge advantage.
@@justaguyfromreddit Your opinion doesn't matter. Most winners win with their shoulder going below. It's part of a standard pin. Again, your opinion doesn't matter.
Engin never referred to "the kings" move as "desperation" move, and I think he explained himself very clearly in his videos. I do agree that there is a thin line between these two as he ellaborates, but surely there is a distinction between the famous kings move and the one that he called desperation move in his mind.
@@Oaverso Well, apparently it’s not as clear as I had it in mind. I just checked his desperation move video and his video call with Devon. You are right, he addresses it as open top roll and never says the word king's move, so that’s a bit confusing for me now … But his definition for the desperation move seemed to be a kings move in which the elbow moves below the elbow pad which creates a situation that even if the opponent gets to fully open your hand, since you’ve moved below the table your hand can’t touch the pad unless it breaks, or you are force up out of pain. So I think if you are in a king’s move and your elbow is above the elbow pad he would call that desperation move, although he still thinks it’s ugly. I’m not sure anymore because what he was showing in the video and addressing as open top roll is the move that we call king's move, so that confuses me about his definition of the king's move in general.
The kings move originated with george zachowitz, he does not at all use a bone lock... There is a massive confusion between the kings (George), low hand open top roll or high hand posting open top roll (Engin) and the open kick back rolling post exampled here. The counters are kings < cup; low hand open top roll < supinate; high hand open top roll < lower wrist & move inside and finally kick back rolling post < post thumb ridge & supinate.
Yep. Devon has a weak hand so he would not even be close to top 10 without straps and kings move. Nowadays everybody use the straps and that’s why Devon doing good. Plus he will bully the refs for hand position before start.
Guys I love your content, I have a huge question I'll be glad if you answer: how can I improve my ability to keep my hand while I'm going to the side? Expecially on the start.
Your very last point in the video - Ive been saying that for years lol!! Only problem is that a 180 degree arm isnt a foul under all armwrestling associations. If it became a foul, I think it would be completely fair to measure the range of motion on competitors arms. This is pretty much destroy the kingsmove for good. If this rule was enforced, Michael Todd wouldnt be able to compete in even top 50.
The moment we all cheered for was when John was taunting shouting where you going buddy and then pushed through the kings move by mr under the tbale todd.
I loved how you included Jerry coderette match. but why you didn't discuss Michael match with Devon. what happened there. how Devon won against king move
Yes please please please measure arm lock/end range before a match! Because someone who’s arm can straighten will foul with straight arm so why not foul under arm lock? Kings move is someone who’s arm has arm lock/bone lock before his hand reaches pad. Todd has bone lock , Larratt has bone lock, most guys using kings move have bone lock because they know the advantage it brings. But ultimately their arm has straightened so it should be a foul if competitor is at bone lock. Show me one competitor who doesn’t have bone lock using Kings move. Please
They don’t ban it because that is the only way Americans can win sometimes a competition. In straight proper arm wrestling, Americans have 0 chances agains Europeans or Russians
It really depends on if the person doing the kings move can fully straighten their arm. If they have an injured arm like Michael or Devon and can't straighten their arm then you literally have to break their arm to pin them. At that angle and leverage you will not be able to produce power to break bone.
Nonsense. Bones don't hold the arm together. Tendons and ligaments hold the radius/ulna to the humerus. Devon and Michael Todd have extremely strong connective tissue.
I think big difference in practice with Alex vs George and Devon v George is that Devon purposely gets to a position where George kings is fully set so he can practice different ways around it. Clearly it works with the way he dismantled MT like noone else has.
Hello Ray and Janis / GREAT VID content and I congratulate you for this video. ANTHONY / CAN can deal with King' s move, because they know Crazy Georges/ Your vid is very useful for European amrwrestlers. Personnally, I agree with Engin T that it is a "desperate" move . Greetings and Merry Christmas _ / Frederic from Belgium
In my opinion i king’s move is just an open arm pronation strap dragging move without fighting for cup. It doesn’t matter if you’re at a bone lock or the end of your range (although that obviously helps the move be stronger). If you’re still cupping then it’s an open arm toproll. I also don’t know why you’re demonstrating the king’s move outside of the strap - it cannot be down outside the strap.
King's move is giving up everything except pronation. It is the extreme end of the hill. To do it well you need a wonky elbow otherwise you are defensive open top rolling or getting a foul from going too low (desperation move).
I'm curious, could you just not power through and intentionally break the bone? I've never experienced vs. anyone with a bone lock (though I used to use something similar to troll people in high school -- my elbow is double jointed and I can pronate nearly 360 degrees), but I would think that surely you could just set your sights on an intentional snap. I personally don't see anything wrong with intentionally breaking someone's arm if they go into a break arm position; competition is competition, after all. But like I said, never experienced anything like it in person. Is the bone just so calcified with bone spurs, etc., that you can't break it?
The BS of it is that so many ppl using the kings move don't even have their elbow on the pad. At 3:40 he is saying you shouldn't be allowed this position, but this is what the kings move is...
I'm fairly new to this and only "watch" arm wrestling so i may be totally wrong here but... Anyhow, my observation is that if you reverse the kings move you come back up instead of staying down. You fold your arm instead of straighten it and you move from the defensive side to the offensive side. Are you are in a press here or am i wrong ? If i'm right and have gotten things right you are not allowed to fold your arm and bicep/shoulder together completely and press with your body, or i'm a wrong about this? If i got it correct my question is why one are not allowed to fold ones arm completely and press with the body but allowed to straighten it completely and drag with the body? This seems to be a discrepancy to me considering everything else seems to have that counter balance. You/your opponent. Offensive side/defensive side. Inside/outside. Pronate/supinate. Press/drag and so on. But when it comes to open/closed (?arm position? or whatever you might call it) this balance doesn't seem to exist. If you are allowed to completely open and drag why shouldn't you be allowed to completely close and press? If the answer is no, why? Why shall the counterbalance regarding using the body between these two positions not exist? I reserve myself about sounding like a complete no-nothing here and maybe be overthinking this. Maybe one should be allowed and the other not because they are different moves. I just feel it lacks some balance here but what do I know...
19:03 I see a lot of people saying the same, "If it's within the rules." That's the problem armwrestling is getting more and more popular and like other sports needs to implement new rules to get rid of the bad in armwrestling. Other sports are constantly changing rules to make their game better. Armwrestling needs to get rid of guys with their arm straightened out and figure out a way to improve the strap so that it allows for more hand control.
@@L96A1Terminator I've never seen anyone mention hooking and toprolling a cheat? I don't think it's just casuals who dislike seeing kings move matches.
I dont armwrestle but Im wondering kings move is a defensive move so he can not pin you down with kingsmove right? then why cant you just wait until he try to transition to go offensive
I've been into armwrestling a couple years now and this is the first time I've had the move explained simply like this....I hate it. Ban the king's move. Completely. Now.
In my opinion you can beat any king’s mover who doesn’t have a bone lock with a flop press. If Larry had a flop press he would’ve beaten Brandan Allen. It’s so hard for an open arm to hold the down pressure of a press. A king’s mover with a bone lock you need to get them palm up so that they have no winning lane. Devin demonstrated that beautifully against Michael Todd at king of the table 1.
Bone lock to press? Everyone has bone lock to press that’s why it’s legal. Your shoulder almost his your hand when you press, who’s doesn’t. If your pressing your attempting to armwrestle but if your arm is straight you foul and lose. But if your bone lock stop your arm from straightening then it should be measured before a match so when your arm gets opened up to your bone lock you foul. Because under bone lock you are no longer attempting to press or armwrestle as it was intended. If your arm bone locks like Todd’s and Latratts it should be fouled. I havnt seen anybody who doesn’t have bone lock try use Kings move. Kings move is discovered by people with bone locks. It’s a way to cheat.
You have to be able to put enough stress on the joint to hyper extend the elbow. With a that meat and the surgery elbow it's almost impossible vs a old vet of the game.
in theory, it is dangerous. Which is why the refs won't allow a straight arm lock kings move type thing. However, some people like Michael Todd already broke their elbow, and have had repeated stress on it and that makes it harder to rebreak or reinjured their elbow like that. So for someone like MT, it might not be healthy, but risk of injury is small. For newer pullers who haven't built up their elbows, or even broken their elbow before, it could lead to an elbow injury. But that would only make their kings move even stronger next time...
guys greating from germny: can you test out what happens if you start to push towards your oponent to force the elow off the pad (impulse) basicly pushing down wiht triceps down to the table but suddenly. do that 3 times and its a point without having to press throu
That's exactly what I would do even if it's forbidden. I saw it in a match because refs said nothing about the opponent escaping in a 🗽 position. It was in WAL of course. The guy pushing call refs for elbow foul and those dumbs keep saying nothing. Just make us want quitting the sport or at least some organization and refusing to pull cheaters.
KM is hard to overcome because the crouching body weight applied to the opponents arm is unfair. Thats why oppenets hand/ arm that face the KM burn out quickly and why the person using the KM has a fresh arm. Devons left leg was hanging off the ground round 1 vs John.
I like the video, lots of good info and points, but my only problem is neither one of you demonstrated the move or getting around it. Gotta demo this kind of thing. That strap at 90degree arm angle doesn’t appear to be a valid simulation imo.
18.45 = ruclips.net/video/_TpqfaG6hww/видео.html, here is Devon in practise hooking Crazy George in pretty much same lane as Kurdecha. Not as fast and powerful, but still. I believe Devon said himself that it was kind of a day where everything aligned for him, and not for Crazy George, and he could prob not do that consistently. You can see the amount of strain it puts on Devon, it is crazy.
@@DeshwalST Its true he doesnt hit, the whole ordeal just looked a lot harder for Devon than it did for Kurdecha =D That europeans hate Devon thing is just your opinion, dont believe its true, he has brought in too many new fans lately. Or maybe you dont mean "hate" but more like that europeans dont take him seriously, although europeans dont take no american armwrestlers so seriously anymore heh
What I've always been worried about is someone putting a piece of tech in their elbow to force something like a bonelock. They might even be able to deactivate it when they're not competing.
Cool idea but that would only work in science fiction, even if you had your bonelock screwed with metal into a Mike Todd position it would break more easily than a natural bonelock. Because Human Bone is extremely tough, stronger than steel by weight, and has elastic & shock absorbing properties that really can't be recreated. If you were to screw into it or something you would just compromise it and break more easily, if the pain of such a thing in your elbow wouldn't kill you under all that pressure.
@@AuroraSymphony Well what am i supposed to assume, what other type of tech for human bone than screws or Plastic/metal components did you have in mind? Same thing would go for say a screwless elbow prosthetic that locks at a certain angle, things of this nature don't really make your joints more durable than years of natural buildup to a normal bonelock asa result of constant training or stress on the joint. Unless of course you are talking about some tech that is yet to be invented. Like a new material that can simulate bone and lock up and harden when you press a button in your neural interface? Who knows dude but you said currently feasible
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Best way to stop the Kingsmove is to use your dominant feet to kick your opponent square in the nuts.
You can kick your opponent too!?
I dont think nutshots are okay under wal or pal rules.
Great Idea. Once enough top level pullers use that it will become an official move 😁😂
That would be called... Queen's move 😂
Shoulder below pad in losing position is what makes most people hate the Kings move. If refs would call fouls properly in that situation it would squash the drama around Kings move.
Exactly this!
I'm still a fairly new fan to this sport but to me it seems WAL events / refs let so many infractions go uncalled, but I do prefer the running fouls, PAL and WAF don't let any fuckery happen in setup or during the match, but ruin events with fouls deciding to many outcomes and generally stalling matches, I get that if you foul you have taken your self out but no one wants a win by fouls.
@@zGJungle with WAL the more popular you are and entertaining more you get away with
It's bullshit, that's not armwrestling, Larrat and Todd use that garbage that's why I stopped watching WAL. I you wanna see real armwrestling watch european.
They're not fouls if the arm is touching the pad and the elbow is above the pad. Even if the elbow is two inches above it's legal as long as it's over and there's arm contact. People need to move on from this already. It's part of the repertoire for most wrestlers even if they don't use it all the time.
@@Anax100 I dont hear anyone complaining about a shoulder above the table kings move while in a losing position and when refs start calling fouls properly when this move is performed illegally we will move on from it.
Also the top 2 North American arm wrestlers gained their positions with this illegal application of the kings move. It makes us a joke to the rest of the arm wrestling world.
Thanks for this. I agree that use of a bone lock ought to be seen as a foul. Devon's desperation move against John was totally relying on his bone lock. John had good reason to be optimistic about his strength, but pulling a bone-locked 127kg Devon, with his foot hooked around the table leg and all his weight behind him to the pin was possibly impossible for anyone. Devon still had more stamina, so he legitimately won the supermatch, but probably not as a shutout stake. The move needs reviewed.
@Dave Pryor I agree. Devon’s kings move in Rd 1 was legit. He held the position with muscle power, not bone. John had a chance to pin him but he didn’t have the ability to master Devon’s wrist to quite make it happen.
Nonsense. There is no such thing anatomically as "bone lock." It is just extending your arm to its maximum. Do you really think that soft tissue isn't holding the arm together? Why shouldn't a competitor be allowed to use his anatomy to its fullest?
@@MagnumMuscle1000 if a fully extended arm is illegal, and a full extension is crooked, then it is fully extended and arguably illegal. 😊
Literally have no clue what you're talking about. It was an open top roll round 1 , bone lock what the fuck are you talking about. People see someone in an open toproll and watched Engin and cry desperation move everytime. It's embarrassing
There is a difference between the way he and MT do it. MT is sitting there expelling 0 effort in his position, waiting for his opponent to get sick of his bullshit an quit. Just look at the blank expression on his face, that's the bone lock. When Devon does it his shoulder is still above the table, he's breathing hard and his whole body is shaking. Look at his match vs. Dave Chaffee, yes it is still king's move, but he's clearly still straining against the force of Dave, that's not a bone lock. MT is bitching and crying now because the top guys have figured out how to beat it and he has nothing else to go to.
Thanks for the tips guys! Love all your videos. Stay strong
Our pleasure!
@@voiceofarmwrestling your comment on Neil's podcast regarding this video --> It does make sense why this video has broken the Internet 👍. Please do another video on fingers & lower forearm and wrist / upper forearm!
You have the monopoly on people talking succinctly on body parts relevant to the sport at the moment. Road to 75000 subs 👍
Hard to police the bone lock. Centimeters matter there, and it's hard for refs to judge a specific angle in the middle of a match.
great in depth analysis, thank you, legends, I almost feel like a professor of arwmrestling theory thanks to you
Really phenomenal video with a lot of different examples. Great work y'all!
Such a good session! This type of explanation has been a long time coming!
Great information! Thanks for your hard work, Rolley and Janis! 😉🙏🏼 Merry Christmas to the both of you! 💪🎄🎅💚
When MMA first started getting popular I'd hear lots of people complaining about how grappling and joint locks were cheating, boring and against the spirit of combat sports. I remember people complaining about having to watch a cuddling match. Over time well rounded fighters learned how to counter the strengths of grappling and spectators learned to appreciate the technique, play and counterplay of grappling. I feel like the kings move is similar for arm wrestling. One trick pony wrestlers will get beat while true champions will adapt their technique to counter. Ex. Devon's absolute domination over Michael KotT1. Devon had the tools to make Michael Todds king move a non-factor. In 5 years, not knowing how to counter a king's move will be no different than a great striker thinking he can be successful in MMA without ground defense.
This is a great comparative explanation 👍
You can’t really compare the usage of wrestling or grappling in MMA to something like this. It’s apples and oranges.
@@xmasterdeepx 100% agree
100%
Sir, the analogy ignores the obvious advantage.
It wasn't super clear how to "beat" the kings move, so let me try and summarize. Basically you should try and stay center table and climb up on the hand. Once you feel you have enough height, try and pin. Don't waste your energy trying to pin without the hand control.
If you know someone does the king's move then you should try to prevent a slip at all costs. Contain their hand, beat their hand and press. Flash pinning is best if possible. If the match goes to straps you are almost definitely screwed if you can't flash pin them. But if straps are applied you need it to be as loose as possible to make it easier to climb and press. Make space by flexixing your thumb and pronating a little bit while the strap is applied. After defeating the hand, pressing is the best way for a supermatch. You must put your frame vs bone lock. Otherwise if you top roll, you may take 1 or 2 matches, but will almost certainly tire out and lose every other match. Good luck
This is not directed to you.
It does not take an arm wrestling expert to see when someone is just using their bone structure to rest. Their entire body pops up when they are pinned. No matter how often the experts try to educate people about the kings move, nothing will change the fact that average men have been arm wrestling for thousands of years and they have never tolerated someone using their whole body to try to win like that. It’s the equivalent of using both arms to try to win in the eyes of most people. Nothing will ever change what everyone can clearly see with their eyes. Those that rebuttal with rule claims should consider what people are actually talking about. You can start a league right now (if you have the money) and have a rule in it where you can use two hands to pull if your eyes are green. That would be an actual rule people would have to follow if they wanted to win your prize. Rules were created by people. They are not definitions. What some people are doing when criticizing the kings move is trying to more accurately define what it means to arm wrestle someone vs what you are allowed to do as per the rules. There is a reason why professional fighters lose respect from the public when they milk an accidental foul to get a win. Rules are, by nature, intended to be fair and not meant to be exploited.
Love you Ray! Especially drunk Ray !
Janis his always good to listen, what a legend..!
Voila c'est ça mec! ArmWild TV France explication physics bra de fer bientôt? 🇫🇷
@@armwrestling-like-the-vide6030 Mmmmh oui j'y pense fortement, bientot j'éspère aussi :)
Wow! Great explanation, guys. Thank you very much.
The best explanation ever!
Amazing video lots of knowledge in that 20 minutes tbh.
Well said guys EASY fix. Competitors must hold out their arm for ref. The more you can straighten your arm, the more room you have to not be fouled. Armwrestling is a display of both STRENGTH and SKILL, bone lock is NEITHER 💪
12:22 What I noticed that Pushkar did was grab Michaels thumb and when he pressed it over pronated Michael and maybe disengaged his Kingsmove. Jerry's hand usually is open and so far below Michael cannot get full control on Jerry's pronation.
This is why I've taken an interest in arm wrestling and it has held my attention. It is a deceptively deep sport. It's exciting to watch, but there is also a lot to digest and analyze. It is explosive, but also strategic, like a good battle should be.
Good morning boys love the videos
Morning
As always, best armwrestling content there on YT. Bar none. Thank you!
New arm wrestling fan here.
Couldn't you just choose to _not_ engage with them when they pull a King's Move? It's a defensive position, right? They can't pin you with it, they have to get up and change to an offensive position in order to pin, no? So can't you just "wait" or be in a "neutral" position instead of expending so much energy trying to pin them when they're in a King's Move? Can't you be like, "Either get up from the King's Move, or we'll be standing here all day doing nothing."?
Or am I misunderstanding the King's Move?
Yeah you could do that, the problem is that most ppl don't know that their opponent is in a king's move. When the opponent goes in a king's move you get this weird pressure, like you could easily pin them. This is why most ppl recklessly hit into the king's move. "The table monkeys" have multiple good videos about it
Now you're getting it! Squatting saps energy so just be patient and climb.
Just hold him in the center, climb and get him to fatigue his arm also by letting him fight for a pin
Assuming strengths are similar. Outside the straps yes it's not a big deal, you can wait center table unless you are crazy enough to try a hook the guy. In straps waiting center table is still draining bacause they are normally trying to play tug of war with you. And a lat drag takes almost no energy compared to you trying to stay in the center of the table and keep constant back pressure. So if you try and wait it out in the center of the table you will lose.
That requires patient presence of mind and endurance. But yes, absolutely.
Great insight!
13:14 look to the left at Rob vigeant's face 😂😂😂😂😂 it's like he's saying man I can't watch, something is gonna break
17:00 They hold at the begining and use muscles when the opponent still strong and fresh when the opponent is tired they can relax and depend only on the bone lock
THank you so much ,, your tips are extremely extremely helpful 👌🙏❤️
Worst thing to do against a Kingsmove is keep going for a pin with sidepressure and pure force. It forces the opponent to use their advantage and snowball it to a point where you can not be beaten anymore.
It therefore HARD counters non dynamic pure force sidepressure or inside based armwrestlers
Unless your Todd hutchings
@@mediocrepronator6269 who lost to larrats kingsmove though
@@skaarlner Ill give you that, with controversy though... Although a win is a win
If you watch Michael Todd's matches pretty closely, It's pretty obvious when his Kings move works his arm angle is about an inch above his bone lock. Every time someone hits his bone lock, he gives up really quickly. It's gotta be too painful to hold for more than a few seconds.
I agree. Neurologically, pain shuts strength down too.
agreed, almost noone ever says this! but i see the same. anyone who puts him there gets the quick pin.
Great video! Very knowledgeable two gentlemen
explain how someone’s scar tissue is “bone lock.” Kings move is basically them using a strap and pronation like a wrist wrench works. The only way seems to stay high and not lose your wrist…which is almost impossible once they drop with that wrist wrench type of twist.
Both are great professors !
My biggest issue is the use of the back of the elbow pad as a fulcrum on the arm itself, not the elbow. If their elbow starts to lift as they fulcrum off the back of the pad, it should be a foul. It’s an elbow pad, not an arm pad.
Can we all agree that it should be called the "Queen's move"
Its already coined. It is a defensive open top roll that still has cup.
It's bullshit, that's not armwrestling, Larrat and Todd use that garbage that's why I stopped watching WAL. I you wanna see real armwrestling watch european.
@@simontemplar4338 Don't be gay dude.
@@grey8557 I'm not gay, I just think larrat is a phony.
@@simontemplar4338 If he's so bad then beat him in a match.
I have my first super match in Jan vs. a kings mover. Listening closely to this video
Loved Gashevski's swallowing of the opponent's hand with his open toproll technique, fascinating to watch.
I personality have zero problem with the KM since I'm a flop presser 😂😂
You just thank them for giving you an advantage lol
@@DuckHunterGaming yup, my wrist is made out of butter, but I have a decent side. So I always start by pressing in armbreak position. But I find that very comfortable and never had problems
I had commented the same thing on Larry's video, I felt he showed noob skills in his match with Brandon, instead of holding and burning up his biceps he should have transitioned to the press. The press is the best way to beat the King's move and not burn yourself out in the process.
Did John say he should've done this against Devon? I thought he did in an interview.
Imagine if Levan decides to troll Devon in their future match and pull a kings move on him.
Devon completely deconstructed the kings move against Michael todd. If anyone has the table IQ to overcome the kings move its Devon.
@@brbrd102 devon was at least 2 times stronger in that match than todd. and that's all watch a video from a year earlier todd beat devon. devon couldn't do anything with todd's kings move..
@@dwdaad764 It's because he was able to defeat MT's hand. Once you can defeat the hand it gives extra leverage on the arm and that bone lock. I think that's part of the reason why a flop wrist press is nice because you can perform a press further up someone's hand in a strap instead of closer to their wrist. At least this is the conclusion I've come to so far.
@@dwdaad764 Devon focused on his wrist far more after his 2018 loss.
Does Levon have a messed up elbow? I thought he had full range of motion.
that guy doing the kings move on you at 14:10 was bullshit it just shouldn't be allowed
Looked like a foul to me, not a king's move. Hard to tell if he was on winning side though. In that case it isn't a king's move at that point. King's is defensive and you have to be above table.
Hey ray one question, can you train forearms everyday for arm wrestling or should I do it every other day?
it is suggest to train hand and wrist everyday, which normal involve a forearm pump so Id say you are in the clear.
Very informative video by the 2 professors.
Do you sell a course? I'm new to armwrestling I want to know what to workout and the moves
great vid guys
The best way was how devon did it, to negate the hand so he cant go to his kings move
Alright check this out, the last match Devon had with John he did a open top roll kings move but both head and shoulder above the table. This is good and in my opinion not a “cheat” move. Now Todd’s under the table bone chip action is and should be illegal. His elbow is rarely on the pad and his career would be over if not for the queens move
not much difference between them, if one is cheating so is the other
@@holliswilliams8426 that’s an idiotic statement. Obviously there is a huge difference. Why even take the time to say anything if you are going to say something so dumb?
@@holliswilliams8426Obviously a newbie to the sport. What Devon did Vs John round one is a legit move that's been used by Europeans and is not cheating. Please educate yourself on the sport before commenting
If someone pulls a king's move against you in the strap, you can pull your own king's move and play a game of endurance until you gain an advantage in your hand position. Then you can rise up in full stance, and hit a quick press.
Idk why people hate on it soo much. All this move did was make the game more advanced.
I feel like the kings move ruins so many matches, many people don't want to watch the sport when this is allowed especially when shoulders below the table. Then it's not even arm wrestling anymore.
If shoulder go at level or below level of the table is a foul. That should be in a rule book.
In my opinion even when you are attacking. Even if you are hooking or toprolling. Shoulder under? Foul
Shoulder has nothing to do with it. Stop referencing the shoulder.
It's all about angles.
With your little rule opinion, someone with massive shoulders would have a huge advantage.
@@justaguyfromreddit Your opinion doesn't matter.
Most winners win with their shoulder going below. It's part of a standard pin.
Again, your opinion doesn't matter.
Humerus bone angle is a much better rule.
Suggestion maybe make a top 10 right hand armwrestlers in the world list together and explain your picks
Engin never referred to "the kings" move as "desperation" move, and I think he explained himself very clearly in his videos. I do agree that there is a thin line between these two as he ellaborates, but surely there is a distinction between the famous kings move and the one that he called desperation move in his mind.
The desperation move is also known as a foul. King's move is not a foul.
King's move is the very move he calls desperation move. He adresses the legal version of the king's move as open toproll
@@Oaverso Well, apparently it’s not as clear as I had it in mind. I just checked his desperation move video and his video call with Devon. You are right, he addresses it as open top roll and never says the word king's move, so that’s a bit confusing for me now … But his definition for the desperation move seemed to be a kings move in which the elbow moves below the elbow pad which creates a situation that even if the opponent gets to fully open your hand, since you’ve moved below the table your hand can’t touch the pad unless it breaks, or you are force up out of pain. So I think if you are in a king’s move and your elbow is above the elbow pad he would call that desperation move, although he still thinks it’s ugly. I’m not sure anymore because what he was showing in the video and addressing as open top roll is the move that we call king's move, so that confuses me about his definition of the king's move in general.
Thank you very much❤️
The kings move originated with george zachowitz, he does not at all use a bone lock...
There is a massive confusion between the kings (George), low hand open top roll or high hand posting open top roll (Engin) and the open kick back rolling post exampled here. The counters are kings < cup; low hand open top roll < supinate; high hand open top roll < lower wrist & move inside and finally kick back rolling post < post thumb ridge & supinate.
I didn’t like the matches that go straight to strap. It does take away from a strong hand. Make them earn the strap.
Yep. Devon has a weak hand so he would not even be close to top 10 without straps and kings move. Nowadays everybody use the straps and that’s why Devon doing good. Plus he will bully the refs for hand position before start.
Devon had the stronger hand in his match against John
Guys I love your content, I have a huge question I'll be glad if you answer: how can I improve my ability to keep my hand while I'm going to the side? Expecially on the start.
Can you guys do videos like this showing us hook and press? Much love from Ohio!!
Your very last point in the video - Ive been saying that for years lol!! Only problem is that a 180 degree arm isnt a foul under all armwrestling associations. If it became a foul, I think it would be completely fair to measure the range of motion on competitors arms. This is pretty much destroy the kingsmove for good. If this rule was enforced, Michael Todd wouldnt be able to compete in even top 50.
Todd wouldn’t definitely still be in the top 50. Just maybe not top 10.
Devon wouldn’t be top 5 without kingsmove.....
@@Cadv-gw1xt and Dave Chaffee wouldn’t be top 5 without a hook. What’s your point?
@@jdj2022 Dave doesn’t even pull in a hook, he’s a side pressure/toproller
@@jdj2022 Nooo
Love u guys 💪
Awesome content 😉
Competitors cannot drop the competing shoulder below the level of the elbow pad when in a neutral or losing position
Great video suggestion Mr Neil Pickup 😊
The moment we all cheered for was when John was taunting shouting where you going buddy and then pushed through the kings move by mr under the tbale todd.
I loved how you included Jerry coderette match. but why you didn't discuss Michael match with Devon. what happened there. how Devon won against king move
Are there any videos of you guys beating a kings move?
Did Larry do no training against the kings move ? Allen was known to use it.
Awsome video........ And I am very impressed by your English
Genadi is getting his translator Veronica Mchedlishvili to take notes as we speak. Good luck Genadi
Yes please please please measure arm lock/end range before a match! Because someone who’s arm can straighten will foul with straight arm so why not foul under arm lock?
Kings move is someone who’s arm has arm lock/bone lock before his hand reaches pad. Todd has bone lock , Larratt has bone lock, most guys using kings move have bone lock because they know the advantage it brings. But ultimately their arm has straightened so it should be a foul if competitor is at bone lock. Show me one competitor who doesn’t have bone lock using Kings move. Please
amazing video
When your body is below the table that no longer arm wrestling
They don’t ban it because that is the only way Americans can win sometimes a competition.
In straight proper arm wrestling, Americans have 0 chances agains Europeans or Russians
It really depends on if the person doing the kings move can fully straighten their arm. If they have an injured arm like Michael or Devon and can't straighten their arm then you literally have to break their arm to pin them.
At that angle and leverage you will not be able to produce power to break bone.
Nonsense. Bones don't hold the arm together. Tendons and ligaments hold the radius/ulna to the humerus. Devon and Michael Todd have extremely strong connective tissue.
I think big difference in practice with Alex vs George and Devon v George is that Devon purposely gets to a position where George kings is fully set so he can practice different ways around it. Clearly it works with the way he dismantled MT like noone else has.
Yeah Alex not much of a slow puller in practice haha
@@krob5375 yeah Alex just smashing people everywhere lol 💪🏼
Hello Ray and Janis / GREAT VID content and I congratulate you for this video. ANTHONY / CAN can deal with King' s move, because they know Crazy Georges/ Your vid is very useful for European amrwrestlers. Personnally, I agree with Engin T that it is a "desperate" move . Greetings and Merry Christmas _ / Frederic from Belgium
In my opinion i king’s move is just an open arm pronation strap dragging move without fighting for cup. It doesn’t matter if you’re at a bone lock or the end of your range (although that obviously helps the move be stronger). If you’re still cupping then it’s an open arm toproll. I also don’t know why you’re demonstrating the king’s move outside of the strap - it cannot be down outside the strap.
King's move is giving up everything except pronation. It is the extreme end of the hill. To do it well you need a wonky elbow otherwise you are defensive open top rolling or getting a foul from going too low (desperation move).
Do you think Levan has a problem with King's move? He never looks like he is trying
I'm curious, could you just not power through and intentionally break the bone? I've never experienced vs. anyone with a bone lock (though I used to use something similar to troll people in high school -- my elbow is double jointed and I can pronate nearly 360 degrees), but I would think that surely you could just set your sights on an intentional snap. I personally don't see anything wrong with intentionally breaking someone's arm if they go into a break arm position; competition is competition, after all. But like I said, never experienced anything like it in person. Is the bone just so calcified with bone spurs, etc., that you can't break it?
The BS of it is that so many ppl using the kings move don't even have their elbow on the pad. At 3:40 he is saying you shouldn't be allowed this position, but this is what the kings move is...
I'm fairly new to this and only "watch" arm wrestling so i may be totally wrong here but...
Anyhow, my observation is that if you reverse the kings move you come back up instead of staying down. You fold your arm instead of straighten it and you move from the defensive side to the offensive side. Are you are in a press here or am i wrong ? If i'm right and have gotten things right you are not allowed to fold your arm and bicep/shoulder together completely and press with your body, or i'm a wrong about this?
If i got it correct my question is why one are not allowed to fold ones arm completely and press with the body but allowed to straighten it completely and drag with the body? This seems to be a discrepancy to me considering everything else seems to have that counter balance. You/your opponent. Offensive side/defensive side. Inside/outside. Pronate/supinate. Press/drag and so on. But when it comes to open/closed (?arm position? or whatever you might call it) this balance doesn't seem to exist.
If you are allowed to completely open and drag why shouldn't you be allowed to completely close and press? If the answer is no, why? Why shall the counterbalance regarding using the body between these two positions not exist?
I reserve myself about sounding like a complete no-nothing here and maybe be overthinking this. Maybe one should be allowed and the other not because they are different moves. I just feel it lacks some balance here but what do I know...
To drag in the kings move may not be the right choice of words but rather leaning or wedging.
19:03 I see a lot of people saying the same, "If it's within the rules." That's the problem armwrestling is getting more and more popular and like other sports needs to implement new rules to get rid of the bad in armwrestling. Other sports are constantly changing rules to make their game better. Armwrestling needs to get rid of guys with their arm straightened out and figure out a way to improve the strap so that it allows for more hand control.
Well, the general population sees toprolling and hooking as a cheat too, its dangerous trying to please casual audience too much.
@@L96A1Terminator I've never seen anyone mention hooking and toprolling a cheat? I don't think it's just casuals who dislike seeing kings move matches.
I jave never seen anyone make that claim either. He's talking nonsense.
Oh boy, go to viral armwrestling videos on facebook and check the comments.
Toproll with cup, attacking rotator
I dont armwrestle but Im wondering kings move is a defensive move so he can not pin you down with kingsmove right?
then why cant you just wait until he try to transition to go offensive
Congrulations, you are smarter than many who actually armwrestle.
I've been into armwrestling a couple years now and this is the first time I've had the move explained simply like this....I hate it. Ban the king's move. Completely. Now.
If the King's Move is such a magic bullet then you should learn it and go beat Levan with it.
In my opinion you can beat any king’s mover who doesn’t have a bone lock with a flop press. If Larry had a flop press he would’ve beaten Brandan Allen. It’s so hard for an open arm to hold the down pressure of a press.
A king’s mover with a bone lock you need to get them palm up so that they have no winning lane. Devin demonstrated that beautifully against Michael Todd at king of the table 1.
can you explain me the meaning of the term ''kingsmove''
bone lock also involved in press and flop press, but no one complains. physical ability is more than just muscles. bones and tendens are used to fight
Bone lock to press? Everyone has bone lock to press that’s why it’s legal. Your shoulder almost his your hand when you press, who’s doesn’t. If your pressing your attempting to armwrestle but if your arm is straight you foul and lose. But if your bone lock stop your arm from straightening then it should be measured before a match so when your arm gets opened up to your bone lock you foul. Because under bone lock you are no longer attempting to press or armwrestle as it was intended. If your arm bone locks like Todd’s and Latratts it should be fouled. I havnt seen anybody who doesn’t have bone lock try use Kings move. Kings move is discovered by people with bone locks. It’s a way to cheat.
You have to be able to put enough stress on the joint to hyper extend the elbow. With a that meat and the surgery elbow it's almost impossible vs a old vet of the game.
How healthy/dangerous is it to use KM with a bone lock?
in theory, it is dangerous. Which is why the refs won't allow a straight arm lock kings move type thing. However, some people like Michael Todd already broke their elbow, and have had repeated stress on it and that makes it harder to rebreak or reinjured their elbow like that. So for someone like MT, it might not be healthy, but risk of injury is small. For newer pullers who haven't built up their elbows, or even broken their elbow before, it could lead to an elbow injury. But that would only make their kings move even stronger next time...
guys greating from germny: can you test out what happens if you start to push towards your oponent to force the elow off the pad (impulse) basicly pushing down wiht triceps down to the table but suddenly. do that 3 times and its a point without having to press throu
That's exactly what I would do even if it's forbidden. I saw it in a match because refs said nothing about the opponent escaping in a 🗽 position. It was in WAL of course. The guy pushing call refs for elbow foul and those dumbs keep saying nothing.
Just make us want quitting the sport or at least some organization and refusing to pull cheaters.
I want to see Oleg Zokh versus a king's move.
What would happen if someone responds with another Kingsmove?
Desperation move
KM is hard to overcome because the crouching body weight applied to the opponents arm is unfair.
Thats why oppenets hand/ arm that face the KM burn out quickly and why the person using the KM has a fresh arm.
Devons left leg was hanging off the ground round 1 vs John.
not another one of these guys. oh noes
Waaaaaa boooo hooooo your boy lost BAD.
It's jus ugly
Join a sit-down league.
I love the King's move.
I like the video, lots of good info and points, but my only problem is neither one of you demonstrated the move or getting around it. Gotta demo this kind of thing. That strap at 90degree arm angle doesn’t appear to be a valid simulation imo.
Thank you 🙏
18.45 = ruclips.net/video/_TpqfaG6hww/видео.html, here is Devon in practise hooking Crazy George in pretty much same lane as Kurdecha. Not as fast and powerful, but still. I believe Devon said himself that it was kind of a day where everything aligned for him, and not for Crazy George, and he could prob not do that consistently. You can see the amount of strain it puts on Devon, it is crazy.
Devon never hit in practice and you have to understand most Europeans hates Devon larratt
@@DeshwalST Its true he doesnt hit, the whole ordeal just looked a lot harder for Devon than it did for Kurdecha =D
That europeans hate Devon thing is just your opinion, dont believe its true, he has brought in too many new fans lately. Or maybe you dont mean "hate" but more like that europeans dont take him seriously, although europeans dont take no american armwrestlers so seriously anymore heh
That was also 5 years ago right after Devon's surgery and he was like 225. Hard to compare to his form now.
LOVE you guys… hopefully meet you sometime soon… any plans visiting Los Angeles anytime soon? ^_^
His fucking shoulder is under the table in the thumbnail… that’s literally illegal lol.
What I've always been worried about is someone putting a piece of tech in their elbow to force something like a bonelock. They might even be able to deactivate it when they're not competing.
Cool idea but that would only work in science fiction, even if you had your bonelock screwed with metal into a Mike Todd position it would break more easily than a natural bonelock. Because Human Bone is extremely tough, stronger than steel by weight, and has elastic & shock absorbing properties that really can't be recreated. If you were to screw into it or something you would just compromise it and break more easily, if the pain of such a thing in your elbow wouldn't kill you under all that pressure.
What? 🤣
@@Kings_Crossing I'm surprised how quick you are to assume it's not currently feasible after quickly deliberating on one potential concept.
@@AuroraSymphony Well what am i supposed to assume, what other type of tech for human bone than screws or Plastic/metal components did you have in mind? Same thing would go for say a screwless elbow prosthetic that locks at a certain angle, things of this nature don't really make your joints more durable than years of natural buildup to a normal bonelock asa result of constant training or stress on the joint. Unless of course you are talking about some tech that is yet to be invented. Like a new material that can simulate bone and lock up and harden when you press a button in your neural interface? Who knows dude but you said currently feasible
Just sneak the band on like janis had. No one will notice.