As an old man who plays WWII wargames, I can attest to the accuracy of Matt's observation. My friends and I have played a game called Squad Leader for 30 years, have innumerable stories, remembrances and reflections on the scenarios played, but except for a small handful of times can honestly say we have no idea which player actually won which particular game. That means, of course, that we all win every time we play
The first ever SUSD video I ever saw was your review of War of the Ring and it was subsequently the first ever board game I purchased as an adult. This happened during the first lockdown in Melbourne, Australia in 2020. Though it was incredibly daunting learning all of the rules and taking an entire hour to just set up this immense game in a tiny shoebox room, ever so slowly me and my housemate started to forget about the world that was falling apart around us, and got sucked right back into a world of childhood nostalgia trying to get a silly little ring across Middle Earth. I can’t remember how many times we played, or who won which game. All I remember are the heightened emotions that quaked in that room; the crushing despair that ripped through you when a critical battle was lost and an entire game long strategy fell apart before your eyes, or the exhilarating thrill of white knuckled success when you somehow managed to pull off a plan hours in the making by the skin of your teeth. As stressful and frustrating as it was sometimes, this game brought me and my housemate so much fucking joy and a much needed distraction during the long months when we were couped up together during a global pandemic. It helped to keep us sane, and from it bloomed a love and passion for board games that we never thought we would ever have. As sad as I am to hear that this game does not live up to War of the Ring (how could it?), I will forever be grateful to the team behind these games, and to you guys at Shut Up and Sit Down for helping me get through these last few years, and for somehow getting me to look back fondly on my time during lockdown. You bow to no one. Thank you.
Been playing wargames for 10 years and you hit the nail on the head. One of the wargame matches I remember the most fondly, was a game of killteam where I got absolutely bodied. From a purely competitive standpoint, I had bad dice luck early, then failed to adjust to the new table state. But in me and my opponents head? The elite scions of the imperium were tasked to hold the line against the plague ridden husks of nurgle. Equipped with re-breathers and hellguns, their confidence was high. It was shattered moments after first contact, when accurate fire failed to even slow the laughing bloated warriors. Panic set in amongst the men who continued to fire volley after useless volley into the approaching horde. Men and women began to fall as rusted rounds tore into them, belching forth from filth covered weaponry. Near the end, two remained. There fire finally began to cut down some of the enemy, the sheer weight of wounds splitting them at joints. But it was not enough. The line fell, and the plague swept on. Much more fun that way.
Yes: War games are about the simulation, not the end result. Or as the famous Canadian war-ga-musicians Tank-Rush said: "The point of the journey is not to arrive" (Prime Mover)
That outro is your finest work. Genuinely made me a little teary. The fact that humans are made of stories, and that we just constantly find and explore ways to tell them is something that absolutely should be celebrated.
Damn Matt, that went from a genuine critique of Battle of Five Armies to an even more genuine discussion on gatekeeping and inclusion in this hobby. Absolutely loved it and I'm so happy to have people like you as a public face of board gaming.
The young has always excluded the old for being obsolete and the old have always considered the young to be bumbling idiots. To place discrimination based on age squarely on the shoulders of the old is rather ignorant of the human condition.
@@Prismet I would recommend not using absolutes, especially when inferring that someone is being ignorant. I agree Matt's bit about old men and their war games went on a bit too long but it only reinforced that it was coming from Matt's personal experience. Your comment would make more sense as a response to the video rather than as a reply to Brian Murphy who was able to accurately read between the lines and see that Matt was speaking about gatekeeping and acceptance in board gaming.
You guys helped me and a friend get War of the Ring (first video I saw from SUSD!) and I have to say, the stories that my friend and I made while playing were the best part. Talking about the time(s) my friend wasn’t paying attention and let me take a fort without a fight (because, it turns out, one CAN merely walk into Mordor!), or the time when I was able to guide Frodo & Sam all the way up to the steps of Mount Doom, only for Gondor to fall just before Frodo could destroy the ring, those tales are what really make the game compelling for me. And it’s a shame that you don’t see quite the same potential here in the Battle of Five Armies.
So true about the relationship between war gaming and role playing games. I do a lot of war gaming, a lot of miniature games, and the story I imagine behind the mechanics brings me back for another round of play just as much as the experience playing. My brother and I have played war of the ring dozens of times and we always talk about it in the language of role playing. Two guards holding a siege against a full army isnt just a statistical abnormality of the dice, its brave defenders cutting down hordes of orcs to hold the gates closed. It's an engaging way to think about the game, and makes the fickle nature of luck based systems easier to swallow. It can be easy to forget that any game's rules are just ways to help players interface with a simulation. Theoretically, when I sit down to play a game Im not a "player", im a cowboy or a thief or a politician or a merchant or an investigator; and I'm not rolling dice and drawing cards, I'm searching for clues, gathering resources, testing my skill against my rival, or running down a secret passageway. How well a game helps me suspend my disbelief is a big marker of how well I'm going to enjoy the game. It's dissapointing to hear BoFA might not live up to its predecessor in that regard, but I'll likely grab it anyway at least to have it in my collection. Thanks for the great review as always
I'm the same way with Blood Bowl (which I play online). I'm always swearing at my players or praising them when 'they' do something right or wrong, even though I know it's just dice rolls.
I had a totally different experience. Those older men were (and often still are) the most welcoming people I've ever met in my life. They are usually terribly happy that you're interested in their very niche hobby, and more than thrilled to tell you about it and welcome you to the table.
@@SebastianKraus42 Again, my experience has been that those guys would be happy to talk about any game, regardless of what game it was. I don't think it's fair for Matt denigrate an entire group of people (older men who play wargames, in this case) based on a few bad experiences that he personally may have had. If it weren't for those "grognards" as they are often called, this hobby wouldn't exist at all.
@@Spearca That's understandable, but it's not a good reason to paint an entire group of people with such broad strokes. Generalizations and prejudices hurt everyone, even if they are based in lived experiences.
I think you're absolutely right about much of the joy of wargaming being in the texture of exploring the setting and the kind of fanficcy alternate history you collaboratively create and not just the tactics and strategy. For exactly that reason, Battle of the Five Armies feels too halfway to be good - still too complex and fiddly for a fun strategy game afternoon, but not deep enough to immerse yourself into the Legendarium like you can with War of the Ring.
As a long time watcher of SUSD I have gone on a journey of self discovery of what it means to be human in part through the medium of board games. However I want it clarified that my thing is more important and better than everyone else’s thing. Thanks for all the hard work.
I have played war games (WW2 mostly) since the mid 80s and you absolutely nailed the essence of wargaming outside of tournaments. It's all about the narrative with the winner/loser being secondary. Some of my favourite games were when I lost but that loss was the end result of an epic battle with an almost movie-like story.
Yeah, funny that a genre started by a game that set out to be a war game without the board should have a lot in common with wargames... Who could have seen that one coming, eh?
War of the ring was the first SU&SD video I ever saw! Watched it countless times since then. And my wife and I still play it regularly. We love the wonderful story it never fails to tell!
"How wrong they were" - That's interesting. I've personally never seen that "looking down on" from wargamers (simulation, hex'n'counter), ever. I've found that wargamers are often very open to new-blood joining that aspect of the hobby because they know that without new customers we wont likely see the mass of new games coming in from the like of GMT, Compass, DVG etc. The story telling aspect of wargames is probably the primary focus of most wargames. It's why so may games and scenarios are often unbalanced as the attempt is not only to simulate what may have happened but to see the various narratives play out.
The ending part described the whole point behind my own channel. I've been playing war games since the '70s, and at a certain point I realized it was my love of stories that makes me enjoy strategy games and role playing games equally. It's the stories that come out of them, and it's what I try to exhibit in my battle reports and on RPG Storytime.
War of the Ring is one of our favorite games. Battle of the Five Armies is an evolution of the expansion for the first edition of War of the Ring, and improved nicely on the ideas from that. I wasn't initially sold on B5A, but it has really grown on me over time. It's another spin on the WotR system, not quite as deep or expansive, but very enjoyable in its own way. The game plays out as a race for the Shadow to win before the Free Peoples heroes come out and get rolling. I think the combat system adds some nice tactical crunch. Pretty much the only point of this review I agree with is that the damage counters are crap, but this is easily remedied by using small dice to track damage instead. The Fate of Erebor expansion for War of the Ring adds some nice twists to that game, making the DEW line strategy less viable and actually making an attack on the east coast a reasonable option for the Shadow. It is fun to play B5A and WotR sequentially, with addition of the Fate of Erebor expansion being a consequence of a shadow victory in B5A. I would suggest that anyone who enjoys WotR, especially if you'd like something a bit quicker to play, should consider giving B5A a try.
I love the connection that Wargames are so similar to RPG's. Honestly, it's a good reminder that D&D originally sprung out of wargaming and despite 5e's focus accessibility and narrative potential, story and choice may have always been a part of that equation. Maybe that's what we all really want in a game: The ability to make choices in a fictional game space that alter that world and make us feel important, smart, or badass.
Though I think the difference is wargames put a bigger focus on being "consistent as a game". And I'd actually really like an RPG that leaned into that! With DnD typically having much more social interactions nowadays, why is there no "tactical minigame" aspect for it, instead of single die rolls or "just roleplay it" And many indie RPG's that claim to put equal weight on combat and talking, usually just do that by removing systems from combat too. Make more systems! I want to see a courtroom drama RPG with complex random tables for the psyche of the judge!
@@metallsnubben I suppose it's possible to have rules and tables to roll on for social encounters in DND. You could run a Parliamentary Debate as a skill challenge. "Give me Persuasion to convince the audience, an insight check to determine what your opponent is up to and a performance check for your witty barb to land." You could even give each side a pool of will points determined by their wisdom scores, their prestige or notoriety, and how long they've been in power. I have seen systems with mechanics for that: VtM 5e with social combat mechanics. Blades in the Dark pits you against different factions which will have higher or lower opinions of you or the party. There are whole jobs to do in BitD that are social in nature. Additionally, a particularly enterprising DND DM could also make up those random tables, if they wanted and if the group was into that kind of game. Personally, I swing the other way: Blades in the Dark, Monster of the Week, and Kids on Brooms all get a lot of mileage out of slimmer mechanics in combat and often even less in social situations. I fear that too many rules on social situations would spoil my fun, not allow me to tell the stories I want to and might not have my fellow players be as invested in the story. Still, my fun might not be your fun. Happy Gaming all the same! I bet there's a few more people looking for "social mini-game" mechanics in DND. Check Reddit. It never hurts.
one of the best reviews on the channel not only for the detailed descriptions of what works and doesnt but obviously for that outro. it was honestly quite beautifully written.
Thank you Matt. As a Magic: the Gathering player I used to get really stingy about the Pokémon card game (grumble it's for kids grumble it's not challenging enough grumble it's just a knock off MtG), until I played it with a housemate who had been collecting for a few years and was just getting about to trying to play the game. The game did little for me, and I was ready to use this experience as a reinforcement of how right I was and how much better Magic is, until I asked my friend how he enjoyed it (already planning his conversion) and he had the biggest grin on his face as he told me how and why he had had the most amazing time and asked me to play again soon. Is Magic more complicated and strategic? I don't know because I haven't played enough Pokémon but I think it probably is. But I have so much fun playing Magic, and my friend has so much fun playing Pokémon and that's the beautiful thing about those games. I love SUSD because I love your funny skits, because I usually agree with you guys on whether a board game is fun or not, but most of all because of your passion and love for board gaming. These videos remind me why I love the table top gaming hobby every time I watch them and I'm very thankful for them.
It's the things like that section from Matt that really elevate what SU&SD do for the hobby and in their videos, podcasts and everything else! Well said.
Amazing observation. I love all kinds of games ranging from Axis and Allies, to Mystic Vale to Tanto Cuore, DnD, and Settlers of Catan. The main thing that bridges the gaps between those games is the fact that we all sit around a table, floor, or even bed and pretend to be someone, and somewhere else for an hour or two or five. It's the peak form of escapism, combining the social dynamics of conversation with the engaging worlds we create and interact with. It's beautiful. This hobby is wonderful.
Man I was not expecting to get a bit emotional from a SU&SD review, but Matt you really did it! Good points about the game, good points about the core of what we have really are, great to have you here with us till now and amazing to have you with us into the future!! For a second I thought you were announcing you were going to retire and move on to new things, cuz you have been at this so long. Really glad you still enjoy this after so many years!!
I love your camera angles in LOTR, DUNE, and other *epic* reviews! I love how you guys stoop down to the board to emphasize the grandeur and scale of these games
I have never disagreed with a review so hard. The combat system that he complained about the whole time is one of the best I have ever played. The system breaks down a lot about a battle into easy tactic cards and terrain, stuff in other war games that are 10 pages of rules into a such a great system that is pretty easy to learn. Please try this game. If you play war games. I only play light war games which most do not consider war games. This game feels like a RTS like Starcraft where the units have like health bars and abilities. I could see this combat system being repurposed into other games as well.
Do you have light war game recommendations? I have been looking for a fun one. I think I want lots of interactivity/variety in options, but I'm not sure. I am considering Undaunted North Africa but I am on the fence about it (it mught be too random and unpredictable)
@@smaug131 Thats a tough one. Light is pretty all over the place, but I will give this a shot. For me I have not played a war game that a war gamer would say is a war game. I have bought them and never got them to the table. The ones I have are classic Memior '44 which is the lightest and general one of the best games I've played. A lot of Worthingtons games would fit Antietam is a light war game with a traditional war game rulebook but one you can actually learn and play (it's like 10 pages with examples). The Grants Gamble hidden block game was also fairly easy. (Also they have different eras with similar style games/systems). Be aware these are light as in a mid-euro not a Ticket to Ride. Freedom! and Phalanx games also on the lower end. (All these maybe too random because they all have dice and that leads to that but I found you could be tactical in them and the better player usually won). Honorable mentions: 1775 (2 or 4 player) amazing game works best at 4 which hard to find a war game for more than 2 I feel. (At least feels good at more than 2) ROOT but it is not light and a bear to teach but it does feel like a war game at least without the Vagabond. For Undaunted I have only read the rulebook for both but I would go the Normandy if any the second one seem a bit more, but they have a review of the first and it seems good I that is why I got them. (Disclaimer: I am not SU&SD so take everything I say with a grain of salt, I have played as many games as most reviews but I try) Also Toms list from the Dice Tower Top Ten War Games was not to bad for some lighter war games if I remember correctly. I hope I helped in any way. Also Kemet is fun for 4-5 players.
13:55 "wargames have a lot more in common than you might expect with roleplaying games. Maybe wargames are just an exercise in collaborative storytelling..." YES. This is it Matt! I play that annoyingly pricey plastic behemoth of a game called warhammer that swallows wallets every turn it makes, but that's the draw to games like these. It's not so much chess, as it is a reenactment, even if its a fictional one. It's about "our little dudes" doing things and getting things done. From a character doing a last stand against a wave of enemies, to a tiny underdog taking out a leader with the luck of a dice throw. I love your realizations and explorations in this video, excellent work!
I grew up on The Hobbit but completely agree. Tolkien noped out of writing Battle if the Five Armies so this feels very arch as a game. But Bilbo uses the ring so often in the latter half of The Hobbit that I think a hidden movement game is where it's at
to be fair, it was basically a children's story so it makes sense why it wasn't exactly fleshed out very much. I think it tonally fits in with the rest of the story.
The automated subtitles for the bit where Matt talks about wargames and rpgs had instead of "rolled dice" said "Robb Dice" and now all I can picture is a guy called Robb introducing randomness into any game he comes across.
What a wonderfully rich video. Over the few years that I've been watching your channel, it's been joyous to watch SU&SD grow to be even better at what you do best: welcome, inform, entertain, and often give pause for thought in a very heartfelt way. Just as war games may actually be about a shared experience of roleplaying in a deeply beloved world, SU&SD reviews are always so much more than consumer advice (and all the better for it). I'm still thankful for the card games video in which you recommended No Pun Included, who have their own take on the great qualities mentioned above. I continue to love watching both channels. Now, in turn, NPI are highlighting other reviewers that they love. Sums up how great this community can be and how there is space for everyone
Actually, in terms of realism, the wound token system making your armies collapse at a point of critical mass is how classical and medieval armies fell apart because they suffered most of their loses during routs when their organisation fell apart or their morale failed at their breaking point.
Man, you really got me interested in seeing how SU&SD would review honest-to-god wargame. Either something super popular like 40K proper, or something niche like Star Fleet Battles
I first came across this channel when watching your Terra Mystica review and I've never looked back. Your conclusion was touching. While I'll probably not play this game I think the reviews on this channel give me a great reflection of what to expect. Excellent review. Thank you. For example the fiddleness you point out draws me away but, the review of 1812: Invasion of canada drew me in. I love that whole series.
I think it's interesting how the hobby has changed so much. Now days, I'd much rather approach the older gentlemen playing wargames than I ever would the younger audience playing more "simple" games. The former is most of the time far nicer and more welcoming. Anyway. War gaming really is role playing. I'm somewhat active in Warhammer and I swear 99% of the excitement is players pretending to be in their army whether it be savage Orks or giant Imperial Knights.
Can agree: wargames let you tell good stories. Wonder if SUSD will ever cover a COIN game or Paths of Glory? Also agree: board games are for all. It's just a case of finding the right ones for you.
I would love them to put their big boy pants on and tackle a COIN. It might help to show people that they actually aren't that inaccessible- maybe when the Mars revolt one comes out?
I'm more into wargames than any other genre in the hobby and I've always seen them as story generators. When I play a game like World War 1 I'm not just thinking about the best odds on the combat results table, I'm thinking about how the heroic Frenchmen going over the top are throwing themselves at the Germans in the hopes that they can do enough damage to distract them and slow down the advance into the Russian heartland. When I play A Distant Plain I'm thinking about the slowly crumbling government trying desperately to maintain order over an increasingly unstable country. My biggest gripe against the Leader franchise is how disconnected the missions feel from each other without a more solid overarching system that can explain the significance of this next air raid. Wargames are great because the stories they tell are about the fate of nations, with countless numbers of people clashing in epic battles. That's what makes it special to me.
Another wargamer saying that Matt was spot-on with his wargaming observation. I'm an old school BattleTech player and my friends and I are trying to rebuild the game's popularity in Dublin after the big boost the game has had in visibility thanks to the kickstarter and computer games. We held a player meetup recently and the newer people who had little experience of the game all loved how the granularity and detail gave you the feeling of a personal story of the guy in the cockpit of that particular 'Mech. I even said that night that the game is a fantastic vehicle for storytelling!
Hi Lorcan! I stopped scrolling because I recognized your name as I am also an old Battletech player. Hopefully the new boxes and KS help boost your efforts!
@@rburt3 It's looking good so far, we had 10 people for our first meetup, 5 new people and 5 regular/semi-regular people from my group. And that was with another 4-5 people who had to beg off at the last minute for various reasons. We've got another one coming up in 2 weeks and a con the week after (And planning has begun on a June meetup too) so hopefully that will help us build up momentum and we might try doing a tournament at a con in October.
The outro made me feel like I've never played a boardgame in my life tbh. Wonder if this could be because I got into board games around 2019 rather than when the hobby was much younger? I really don't feel it was acted at all, it's just not something I can relate to in any way. The war gamers I've met have all been evangelically welcoming to play along with them, and in truth the only war game I've loved has been eclipse which stands out for having functionally no story behind it (I've always felt a bit silly roleplaying anything, no shade thrown) As for people who look down on certain game genres I really can't say I could pin that behaviour more to one set of people than another, and in the board game circles I've hung around they ostrasize themselves pretty quickly and just get out of the way and form their own cliques conveniently enough.
I read the designer’s blogs about this game that were written leading up to it’s release, and the funny part is that essentially stated that all of the criticism here about the story not being as strong as LotR were challenges for them to develop. This series really plays as the ultimate “What if” sandbox for Tolkien, but you have to really get creative when the characters or factions in question have so little written about them in the official lore.
Couldn't agree more with the comment on wargames being more of an effort in collaborative storytelling. And I feel that actually many players could benefit from this realization and not take some games so seriously (this also extends to tabletop miniature wargames, such as Warhammer, Infinity and Co).
Matt’s ace conclusion here of wargames as RP made me instantly realize that his cool big hair is in actuality just an extended receptacle for his cool big brain.
Makes sense to me. I play Pathfinder and I pretend to be an Elf and roll dice and kill monsters and have a good time. I do basically the same thing when I play War of the Ring (except for then I get to be the bad guys half the time as well). I like the narrative aspect of it and that's why War of the Ring and Dune are two of my favorite games. However, I don't know if that's universally true. I think of my brother, with whom I am playing most of the many games of War of the Ring I have played, and how he is not interested in playing rpgs. I think we play the same game but for somewhat different reasons and we enjoy it in different ways. Nothing wrong with any of that. Just remember how ever deep your revelations are about the meaning of life or war games and why you enjoy them know that someone else may approach the same game for very different reasons.
I love War of the Ring and I completely agree about the story you build from each game is more important than who wins. I loved your review and very personal explanation about why you do what you do. Keep up building this wonderful channel.
Speaking of games just being a vehicle for stories, my dad has a few funny stories about his time playing games with his high school friends. His brother-in-law was always an evil mastermind at board games and my dad has told the tale of a time when they all played the original 1970s version of Kingmaker. There was a 24 streak meta-game where my uncle managed to win 23 times in a row due to his ability to politic and drive a wedge between the other players, leading to this struggle where on game 24 he was finally defeated. My dad doesn't remember who actually won the game because to everyone it was just important that they'd managed to keep the alliance intact and prevent my uncle from getting win number 24. The only one who turned out to be the bane of his devious, strategic mind was his own father who beat him in their only game of Conquest of the Empire where my uncle mustered a colossal army against my grandfather only for a lucky roll to kill Caesar and lose my uncle the game.
That was very sweet. A friend bought war of the ring and I’m very lucky he chose me as the shadow to his free people. He sent your review to get me prepared, we are now two games in and loving it. Subscribed, looking forward to seeing lots more of your thoughts on games :)
Wargames have a lot in common with role-playing games? This is no surprise to us role-players who are well-aware that RPGs grew DIRECTLY out of wargames. If you're ever wondering why the rules of D&D are so bizarrely abstracted, there you go.
Spot on with the roleplay thing. Tabletop army games are at their best when you don't care so much about winning and just enjoy the swings of the narrative.
I grew up around wargamers. My dad was a founding member of the club that was still going to this day last I checked. I moved back to the area a couple of years ago and decided to meet up with the club. It was fine but it did feel a little exclusive(and several of the guys had known me since I was a baby, they used to game at our house). I remember telling my dad that if they didn’t get some younger blood in the hobby, it’s going to go away.
The SUSD review of War of The Ring was the final "nudge" that pushed me over the edge to purchase the game several years ago. It was where I discovered that my youngest son also enjoys big, epic, all-day games. (He was 11 at the time.) Due to its length, WoTR doesn't get to the table much but it has become a Thanksgiving Day staple for him and me. We've been looking at Battle of the Five Armies but we both remain unconvinced that its for us - for all the reasons you mention that you aren't enamored with it.
Absolutely agree with that final observation. I've always loved the thematic roleplaying of wargames and the rules being so granular allow me to roleplay without needing the "social skills" that something like DnD somewhat require. I still remember my third game of war of the ring where we were playing it as a 2v2. My ally and I were playing the forces of order and despite our best attempts, Rohan was destroyed, Rivendell was in ashes, Lorien was caught in a bloody siege, the northern kingdoms had hidden away behind their walls and the forces of shadow had amassed an army worthy of mordor at the gates of minis tirith. The shadow player only needed to take one more settlement in order to win, Frodo and Sam were at the last step of mount Doom, every member of the fellowship had perished on the rise to the summit and Gollum had his eye on the ring due to us disbanding him earlier in the game (shadow had a card that let them redraw a corruption token if gollum was the guide). Frodo was at 11/12 corruption so we were running out of options quick, we decided the only course of action we could take was to attempt to move frodo (Gollum had an ability that let him negate a single point of corruption each time the enemy drew a token, so if they drew any 1's we'd be safe and destroy the ring) So we anxiously decide to move the fellowship. We hold our breath as the shadow players draw a token... a 1 is drawn, but before we can celebrate, the shadow player reminds us that Gollum had his eye on the ring, declaring that they're going to redraw a token. At this point we're sure we've lost, a last minute betrayal leading to the end of the world. I don't think I've ever experienced such excitement from a board game as when the shadow player drew a second 1, meaning the fellowship could finally destroy the ring. I think what made this game so special to me is that organically, we'd managed to roleplay out the events of the book, or at the very least managed to emulate the emotional beats of the narrative and I never would've gotten that experience if not for this wonderful game.
I am not an old man but I come from miniatures wargames background and I totally agree with you, I have played since 2000, literally thousands of games of warhammer and other miniatures games like confrontation and lord of the rings non competitively and always it boils down to the stories we create on out tables, that's the meaning of these games for me, like minded people sharing stories with their little miniatures and their dice, like a different kind of role playing game...
Matt hits it dead on with the similarity between wargames and roleplaying games. Every wargame session I have ever played that I enjoyed always had roleplaying, and silly hats involved. Using the setting and the game mechanics as a storytelling engine is what makes them great.
I'm curious as to the assertion that war gamers would look down on other gamers. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have very seldom encountered a board gamer who is anything but happy to see others enjoying games, no matter what they are.
i don't claim to be a Game Scholar but i thnk you're super correct on the comparison between rpgs and wargames -- especially if you look at gygax's early D&D work, i'm pretty sure the framework for those battle-heavy dungeon crawls were explicitly based on the general idea of wargame-iness, with the addition of exploration and a dash of storytelling. nowadays that storytelling dash is kinda the main draw but all those parts are still there and come from the same common ancestor. also if i'm totally wrong please do correct me!
Completely agree about the wargame observation and the previous comment about Squad Leader. I love wargames but my friend and I will only play historical games in which we have an interest, such as WW2 Normandy, The Pacific Campaign, Waterloo, Blenheim ( What !) Games where honestly we don't care who wins but are a vehicle for conversation about a common interest as we play. And when the dice play rough with us it is easy to assume it was the bullet, shell, bomb that randomly and unexpectedly hit the right or wrong target as happens in real war. At the end of the game we have refought history as armchair generals, talked about the subject, had a good time and for a moment remembered the courage and sacrifice of the men and women who actually did it for real.
Role playing games (specifically, the original Dungeons and Dragons) originated as a spinoff from the Chainmail war game, so it makes sense that you'd think that war games feel like RPGs. They both have the same ancestral DNA.
Its a shame that his conclusions is largely negative. I actually find Battle of the Five armies to be just a different kind of fun to its bigger brother but still an amazing experience. Its rich in the lore and character the same as its bigger brother if you know the story of the Hobbit. Just all on a slightly less grand scale.
Is it a shame really? He directly said if he was a big fan of the hobbit he'd certainly like it more. And then explained why in general, there probably are fewer fans of the hobbit than LotR. I'd love to play it but seeing as I don't have WotR yet I'd probably start there
@@ArtaxForever A shame as in I enjoyed the game so wish he had had as good an experience as I felt, and that it might put people off trying what I think is a great game. I am lucky enough to have the collectors edition that comes with painted minis and a much bigger board so that will mitigate some of his complaints as space and unit identity isn't an issue. Still loved the review though, very well shot and edited.
@@leddave I think the SUSD guys dislike these larger army comp games for a while now, people change and so do their tastes. Power to you for having fun with it though!
absolutely spot on about war games. you obviously try to win, but who cares, its more about the "I cant believe that happened!" or "your two goblins lasted how long!" and i use to game at a store, that had the same types of groups, but there was no "looking down on" by anyone. the older gentlemen were just as ecstatic to see the younger kids enjoying the same hobby. they even introduced some of the high school aged patrons to some WW2 games and vise versa.
I agree war games (at least historic) is about simulating an event or events with mechanics. Sometimes its not balanced because the event was not balanced. What makes a good wargame is how it achieves this. Some of the most simplest of war games can be just as enjoyable as some of the most complex and fiddly. Its about the result of those mechanics achieving that moment when you go "I can't believe that happened and how incredible that was even if I lost." It just has to make sense to a wargamer. Whether it was through the layer of chrome or by just how simple yet real it felt. This is what is true about roleplayers too. Some prefer a very crunchy rule system others prefer a very flexible or simple rp system to achieve that great story telling memory that they will repeat to their kids and other friends of how they killed a dragon. Why most wargames and roleplaying games have randomness is it takes out that calculating part. The old say a plan is only as good as till contact with the enemy is made. As far as those older gentlemen I had the same experience. They were more than willing to show me when I was a young kid the game, explain things and let me join in. I never understood this view of people who said they look down at other games. This included the historical miniature wargamers who often have their children, both sons and daughters, helping out setting things up and moving the miniatures around those massive boards. I believe it always was the younger kids were drawn to other parts of the hobby because it did not seem as complex (which often it isn't) or war not hard to get into. Plus I always believed because they saw older gentlemen playing in it and all the kids their age were playing other games. Which is always odd because I always saw so called older gentleman playing in almost every game in the general board game hobby. Yea I just never experienced that looking down on feeling. They invited me to play and join and were very welcoming. I consider myself more of a Wargamer/Roleplayer more than a general board gamer first because that is where my taste is more, but I have a ton of nonwargame board games.
Excellent review. I fell in love with boardgames when I was 4 and then with wargames when I was 8. I am nearly 60 now. The wargames are so much better than what I had when I was young although a few are still worth a play. I find that outside of the top 10 as rated on BGG there are only few that grab my attention and time in the modern games (maybe 1775, Hammer of the Scots and RAF battle of britain). Games like War of the Ring, Twilight Struggle, Imperial Struggle, Triumph and Tragedy and Sekigahara are just so good that games lower down like the Battle of the 5 Armies are mostly just not worth the time unless they hit a very particular chord. This review is very helpful and confirms my desire not to devote time to it, although no doubt if it had been around when I was younger perhaps I would have loved it given the lcak of other better modern designs. Strangely when I was 8 and first started playing wargames (Avolon Hill's Midway) I looked down my nose at others at that time for playing such simplistic alternatives and now I am nearly 60 I find the opposite occurs more often than not although I agree that wargamers definitely have a supeiority complex that is not always well deserved. The games are often complex for the sake of it but not necessarily fun and exciting as a gaming experience which now my years are short becomes more important than ever.
Very interesting to ear your feelings about the whole hobby! That's great to speak about our deep feelings instead of only about rules! With a group of friends we regularly play a few games that we like to explore and explore again: CCNapoleonics, SWRebellion, TFMars, Eclipse, Wingspan, Zombicide for example. But one of these friends is a compulsive shopper and apparently would rather change the games than explore them in depth! Result: He ends up with a game stock that we won't have time to play let alone explore in depth: Twilight Imerium 4, Dune Imperium, War of the Ring, Ark Nova, 878 Vikings, Brass Birmingham and many others gathering dust without ever having been opened! LOL Too many games kill the game for me! "To choose is to give up" says the proverb and since we will never have time to play them all: I prefer to choose a good game and explore it well for several months (or several years) before moving on to the next one! Because our lives are full of other things (like for me my beautiful family, my Harley Davidson, photography etc etc etc). Well done and keep going!
Who is Thorin?!?!? Thorin is one of the main protagonists of the hobbit and leads the company of dwarves+ is the heir to the lonely mountain which the entire battle for 5 armies is about :)
Wow, that was excellent on so many levels. War of the Ring is my favourite game of the 3500 or so I’ve tried these past 40 years. I didn’t like Battle of the Five Armies much at all. Haven’t played a genuine “across the table” war game with a friend for about 10 years, and don’t really miss it.
Absolutely spot on about texture and detail in wargames. There is exactly one youtuber who covers wargames that I follow, to the point of paying for his off-site videos, and that's because he makes every battle an exceptionally brilliant story. He has nothing in production values, or pre/post match debriefs or anything else that other channels do, but what he does have is the ability to tell a story using some bits of (admittedly beautifully painted) plastic and chucking dice. (hat tip to all the other WintersSEO fans out there)
I'm almost halfway through the video and I just keep thinking "Man, this would make a sweet video game." Like, imagine all these rules but things like "remembering to draw an extra card for terrain bonuses", calculating black and white dice seperately, and fiddling with wound tokens are all done automatically in the backend, and you could have on-screen indicators to remind you that such mechanics exist to be considered in the first place. Otherwise the exact same game with animated figures and a 3D map.
![The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies [ strategies and tactics in the book ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rq-aT7PaGfI/mqdefault.jpg)
As an old man who plays WWII wargames, I can attest to the accuracy of Matt's observation. My friends and I have played a game called Squad Leader for 30 years, have innumerable stories, remembrances and reflections on the scenarios played, but except for a small handful of times can honestly say we have no idea which player actually won which particular game. That means, of course, that we all win every time we play
We love to hear it! x
The same could be said for Combat Commander - Extremely influenced by luck... But oh those stories the game creates
Do you recommend that or advanced squad leader? Never played either but I am looking for a tactical firearms based rpg
Best comment I've read in a long time. This is why I love well done thematic boardgames, you always get a new story of the stories/lore that you love.
Spot on. I have similar experiences with Bolt Action. So many cinematic moments, heroic, hilarious or hopeless. All fun. 😀
The first ever SUSD video I ever saw was your review of War of the Ring and it was subsequently the first ever board game I purchased as an adult. This happened during the first lockdown in Melbourne, Australia in 2020. Though it was incredibly daunting learning all of the rules and taking an entire hour to just set up this immense game in a tiny shoebox room, ever so slowly me and my housemate started to forget about the world that was falling apart around us, and got sucked right back into a world of childhood nostalgia trying to get a silly little ring across Middle Earth.
I can’t remember how many times we played, or who won which game. All I remember are the heightened emotions that quaked in that room; the crushing despair that ripped through you when a critical battle was lost and an entire game long strategy fell apart before your eyes, or the exhilarating thrill of white knuckled success when you somehow managed to pull off a plan hours in the making by the skin of your teeth. As stressful and frustrating as it was sometimes, this game brought me and my housemate so much fucking joy and a much needed distraction during the long months when we were couped up together during a global pandemic.
It helped to keep us sane, and from it bloomed a love and passion for board games that we never thought we would ever have. As sad as I am to hear that this game does not live up to War of the Ring (how could it?), I will forever be grateful to the team behind these games, and to you guys at Shut Up and Sit Down for helping me get through these last few years, and for somehow getting me to look back fondly on my time during lockdown.
You bow to no one. Thank you.
This comment was great to read! Board games brought me too throughout the pandemic.
Been playing wargames for 10 years and you hit the nail on the head.
One of the wargame matches I remember the most fondly, was a game of killteam where I got absolutely bodied.
From a purely competitive standpoint, I had bad dice luck early, then failed to adjust to the new table state.
But in me and my opponents head? The elite scions of the imperium were tasked to hold the line against the plague ridden husks of nurgle. Equipped with re-breathers and hellguns, their confidence was high.
It was shattered moments after first contact, when accurate fire failed to even slow the laughing bloated warriors. Panic set in amongst the men who continued to fire volley after useless volley into the approaching horde. Men and women began to fall as rusted rounds tore into them, belching forth from filth covered weaponry.
Near the end, two remained. There fire finally began to cut down some of the enemy, the sheer weight of wounds splitting them at joints. But it was not enough.
The line fell, and the plague swept on.
Much more fun that way.
Absolutely, I agree with that
Yes: War games are about the simulation, not the end result. Or as the famous Canadian war-ga-musicians Tank-Rush said: "The point of the journey is not to arrive" (Prime Mover)
@@TorIverWilhelmsen mhm
That outro is your finest work. Genuinely made me a little teary. The fact that humans are made of stories, and that we just constantly find and explore ways to tell them is something that absolutely should be celebrated.
I'm not gonna lie.. I was also teary, silently mouthing "I love this man."
And who has a better story than Bran the Broken?
Damn Matt, that went from a genuine critique of Battle of Five Armies to an even more genuine discussion on gatekeeping and inclusion in this hobby. Absolutely loved it and I'm so happy to have people like you as a public face of board gaming.
The young has always excluded the old for being obsolete and the old have always considered the young to be bumbling idiots. To place discrimination based on age squarely on the shoulders of the old is rather ignorant of the human condition.
@@Prismet I would recommend not using absolutes, especially when inferring that someone is being ignorant. I agree Matt's bit about old men and their war games went on a bit too long but it only reinforced that it was coming from Matt's personal experience. Your comment would make more sense as a response to the video rather than as a reply to Brian Murphy who was able to accurately read between the lines and see that Matt was speaking about gatekeeping and acceptance in board gaming.
You guys helped me and a friend get War of the Ring (first video I saw from SUSD!) and I have to say, the stories that my friend and I made while playing were the best part. Talking about the time(s) my friend wasn’t paying attention and let me take a fort without a fight (because, it turns out, one CAN merely walk into Mordor!), or the time when I was able to guide Frodo & Sam all the way up to the steps of Mount Doom, only for Gondor to fall just before Frodo could destroy the ring, those tales are what really make the game compelling for me. And it’s a shame that you don’t see quite the same potential here in the Battle of Five Armies.
So true about the relationship between war gaming and role playing games. I do a lot of war gaming, a lot of miniature games, and the story I imagine behind the mechanics brings me back for another round of play just as much as the experience playing. My brother and I have played war of the ring dozens of times and we always talk about it in the language of role playing. Two guards holding a siege against a full army isnt just a statistical abnormality of the dice, its brave defenders cutting down hordes of orcs to hold the gates closed. It's an engaging way to think about the game, and makes the fickle nature of luck based systems easier to swallow.
It can be easy to forget that any game's rules are just ways to help players interface with a simulation. Theoretically, when I sit down to play a game Im not a "player", im a cowboy or a thief or a politician or a merchant or an investigator; and I'm not rolling dice and drawing cards, I'm searching for clues, gathering resources, testing my skill against my rival, or running down a secret passageway. How well a game helps me suspend my disbelief is a big marker of how well I'm going to enjoy the game. It's dissapointing to hear BoFA might not live up to its predecessor in that regard, but I'll likely grab it anyway at least to have it in my collection.
Thanks for the great review as always
I'm the same way with Blood Bowl (which I play online). I'm always swearing at my players or praising them when 'they' do something right or wrong, even though I know it's just dice rolls.
This is a fantastic comment! I am glad you took the time to write this out.
I had a totally different experience. Those older men were (and often still are) the most welcoming people I've ever met in my life. They are usually terribly happy that you're interested in their very niche hobby, and more than thrilled to tell you about it and welcome you to the table.
But his critique wasn't about how they behave when somebody wants to play their games with them. It's about people that play different games
@@SebastianKraus42 Again, my experience has been that those guys would be happy to talk about any game, regardless of what game it was. I don't think it's fair for Matt denigrate an entire group of people (older men who play wargames, in this case) based on a few bad experiences that he personally may have had. If it weren't for those "grognards" as they are often called, this hobby wouldn't exist at all.
I 100% agree. I think there might be a little prejudice hiding in projection in that comment.
@@Spearca That's understandable, but it's not a good reason to paint an entire group of people with such broad strokes. Generalizations and prejudices hurt everyone, even if they are based in lived experiences.
The delivery of the line "The Bobbit, Little Bobbit in the Big City" made me cry I was NOT ready!
I think you're absolutely right about much of the joy of wargaming being in the texture of exploring the setting and the kind of fanficcy alternate history you collaboratively create and not just the tactics and strategy. For exactly that reason, Battle of the Five Armies feels too halfway to be good - still too complex and fiddly for a fun strategy game afternoon, but not deep enough to immerse yourself into the Legendarium like you can with War of the Ring.
That's exactly what's so great about it.
The fanficcy part make it all the better.
As a long time watcher of SUSD I have gone on a journey of self discovery of what it means to be human in part through the medium of board games. However I want it clarified that my thing is more important and better than everyone else’s thing. Thanks for all the hard work.
Correct
I have played war games (WW2 mostly) since the mid 80s and you absolutely nailed the essence of wargaming outside of tournaments. It's all about the narrative with the winner/loser being secondary. Some of my favourite games were when I lost but that loss was the end result of an epic battle with an almost movie-like story.
13:33
"Secretly, war games may have a lot more in common with role-playing games."
DnD litterally based off the war game chainmail:
Yeah, funny that a genre started by a game that set out to be a war game without the board should have a lot in common with wargames... Who could have seen that one coming, eh?
Love your videos and LOTR. I have rewatched your War of the Ring review 30 times over.
Hey this guy is first
@@gesgun7934 hey he's not lol
@@gesgun7934 Sadly, I was 4th. 1st to comment though.
War of the ring was the first SU&SD video I ever saw! Watched it countless times since then. And my wife and I still play it regularly. We love the wonderful story it never fails to tell!
Their War of the Ring video was what got me into board gaming.
4:04 Matt saying "untold grief" is looking the happiest I have ever seen him
Really driving the Chris Morris vibes
Needs to be in an susd out of context video
"How wrong they were" - That's interesting. I've personally never seen that "looking down on" from wargamers (simulation, hex'n'counter), ever. I've found that wargamers are often very open to new-blood joining that aspect of the hobby because they know that without new customers we wont likely see the mass of new games coming in from the like of GMT, Compass, DVG etc.
The story telling aspect of wargames is probably the primary focus of most wargames. It's why so may games and scenarios are often unbalanced as the attempt is not only to simulate what may have happened but to see the various narratives play out.
It's not an assumption I would make aboot old wargamers in general, but I have absolutely seen it.
This has been my experience too, Wayne. I'm sad to see SUSD making such broad prejudicial generalizations like this.
The ending part described the whole point behind my own channel. I've been playing war games since the '70s, and at a certain point I realized it was my love of stories that makes me enjoy strategy games and role playing games equally. It's the stories that come out of them, and it's what I try to exhibit in my battle reports and on RPG Storytime.
War of the Ring is one of our favorite games. Battle of the Five Armies is an evolution of the expansion for the first edition of War of the Ring, and improved nicely on the ideas from that. I wasn't initially sold on B5A, but it has really grown on me over time. It's another spin on the WotR system, not quite as deep or expansive, but very enjoyable in its own way. The game plays out as a race for the Shadow to win before the Free Peoples heroes come out and get rolling. I think the combat system adds some nice tactical crunch. Pretty much the only point of this review I agree with is that the damage counters are crap, but this is easily remedied by using small dice to track damage instead. The Fate of Erebor expansion for War of the Ring adds some nice twists to that game, making the DEW line strategy less viable and actually making an attack on the east coast a reasonable option for the Shadow. It is fun to play B5A and WotR sequentially, with addition of the Fate of Erebor expansion being a consequence of a shadow victory in B5A. I would suggest that anyone who enjoys WotR, especially if you'd like something a bit quicker to play, should consider giving B5A a try.
I love the connection that Wargames are so similar to RPG's. Honestly, it's a good reminder that D&D originally sprung out of wargaming and despite 5e's focus accessibility and narrative potential, story and choice may have always been a part of that equation.
Maybe that's what we all really want in a game: The ability to make choices in a fictional game space that alter that world and make us feel important, smart, or badass.
Though I think the difference is wargames put a bigger focus on being "consistent as a game". And I'd actually really like an RPG that leaned into that! With DnD typically having much more social interactions nowadays, why is there no "tactical minigame" aspect for it, instead of single die rolls or "just roleplay it"
And many indie RPG's that claim to put equal weight on combat and talking, usually just do that by removing systems from combat too. Make more systems! I want to see a courtroom drama RPG with complex random tables for the psyche of the judge!
@@metallsnubben I suppose it's possible to have rules and tables to roll on for social encounters in DND. You could run a Parliamentary Debate as a skill challenge. "Give me Persuasion to convince the audience, an insight check to determine what your opponent is up to and a performance check for your witty barb to land." You could even give each side a pool of will points determined by their wisdom scores, their prestige or notoriety, and how long they've been in power.
I have seen systems with mechanics for that: VtM 5e with social combat mechanics. Blades in the Dark pits you against different factions which will have higher or lower opinions of you or the party. There are whole jobs to do in BitD that are social in nature. Additionally, a particularly enterprising DND DM could also make up those random tables, if they wanted and if the group was into that kind of game.
Personally, I swing the other way: Blades in the Dark, Monster of the Week, and Kids on Brooms all get a lot of mileage out of slimmer mechanics in combat and often even less in social situations. I fear that too many rules on social situations would spoil my fun, not allow me to tell the stories I want to and might not have my fellow players be as invested in the story.
Still, my fun might not be your fun. Happy Gaming all the same! I bet there's a few more people looking for "social mini-game" mechanics in DND. Check Reddit. It never hurts.
This took an emotional turn, loved the conclusion talk, here's to another great ten years!
one of the best reviews on the channel not only for the detailed descriptions of what works and doesnt but obviously for that outro. it was honestly quite beautifully written.
Was not expecting such on point and quite profound commentary about the nature of wargaming and board games in general.
Excellent stuff.
Thank you Matt.
As a Magic: the Gathering player I used to get really stingy about the Pokémon card game (grumble it's for kids grumble it's not challenging enough grumble it's just a knock off MtG), until I played it with a housemate who had been collecting for a few years and was just getting about to trying to play the game. The game did little for me, and I was ready to use this experience as a reinforcement of how right I was and how much better Magic is, until I asked my friend how he enjoyed it (already planning his conversion) and he had the biggest grin on his face as he told me how and why he had had the most amazing time and asked me to play again soon. Is Magic more complicated and strategic? I don't know because I haven't played enough Pokémon but I think it probably is. But I have so much fun playing Magic, and my friend has so much fun playing Pokémon and that's the beautiful thing about those games.
I love SUSD because I love your funny skits, because I usually agree with you guys on whether a board game is fun or not, but most of all because of your passion and love for board gaming. These videos remind me why I love the table top gaming hobby every time I watch them and I'm very thankful for them.
It's the things like that section from Matt that really elevate what SU&SD do for the hobby and in their videos, podcasts and everything else! Well said.
Amazing observation. I love all kinds of games ranging from Axis and Allies, to Mystic Vale to Tanto Cuore, DnD, and Settlers of Catan.
The main thing that bridges the gaps between those games is the fact that we all sit around a table, floor, or even bed and pretend to be someone, and somewhere else for an hour or two or five. It's the peak form of escapism, combining the social dynamics of conversation with the engaging worlds we create and interact with. It's beautiful. This hobby is wonderful.
Man I was not expecting to get a bit emotional from a SU&SD review, but Matt you really did it!
Good points about the game, good points about the core of what we have really are, great to have you here with us till now and amazing to have you with us into the future!!
For a second I thought you were announcing you were going to retire and move on to new things, cuz you have been at this so long. Really glad you still enjoy this after so many years!!
The Argably on paper bit made me laugh more than it had any right too.
@5:00 "it's the shape-shifting murder-bear MJOR-BJORN !!"
sometimes I forget to remember how completely anime Tolkien was.
I love your camera angles in LOTR, DUNE, and other *epic* reviews! I love how you guys stoop down to the board to emphasize the grandeur and scale of these games
Thanks so much!
I have never disagreed with a review so hard. The combat system that he complained about the whole time is one of the best I have ever played. The system breaks down a lot about a battle into easy tactic cards and terrain, stuff in other war games that are 10 pages of rules into a such a great system that is pretty easy to learn. Please try this game. If you play war games. I only play light war games which most do not consider war games. This game feels like a RTS like Starcraft where the units have like health bars and abilities. I could see this combat system being repurposed into other games as well.
Do you have light war game recommendations? I have been looking for a fun one. I think I want lots of interactivity/variety in options, but I'm not sure. I am considering Undaunted North Africa but I am on the fence about it (it mught be too random and unpredictable)
@@smaug131 Thats a tough one. Light is pretty all over the place, but I will give this a shot. For me I have not played a war game that a war gamer would say is a war game. I have bought them and never got them to the table. The ones I have are classic Memior '44 which is the lightest and general one of the best games I've played. A lot of Worthingtons games would fit Antietam is a light war game with a traditional war game rulebook but one you can actually learn and play (it's like 10 pages with examples). The Grants Gamble hidden block game was also fairly easy. (Also they have different eras with similar style games/systems). Be aware these are light as in a mid-euro not a Ticket to Ride. Freedom! and Phalanx games also on the lower end. (All these maybe too random because they all have dice and that leads to that but I found you could be tactical in them and the better player usually won). Honorable mentions: 1775 (2 or 4 player) amazing game works best at 4 which hard to find a war game for more than 2 I feel. (At least feels good at more than 2) ROOT but it is not light and a bear to teach but it does feel like a war game at least without the Vagabond. For Undaunted I have only read the rulebook for both but I would go the Normandy if any the second one seem a bit more, but they have a review of the first and it seems good I that is why I got them. (Disclaimer: I am not SU&SD so take everything I say with a grain of salt, I have played as many games as most reviews but I try) Also Toms list from the Dice Tower Top Ten War Games was not to bad for some lighter war games if I remember correctly. I hope I helped in any way. Also Kemet is fun for 4-5 players.
13:55 "wargames have a lot more in common than you might expect with roleplaying games. Maybe wargames are just an exercise in collaborative storytelling..."
YES. This is it Matt! I play that annoyingly pricey plastic behemoth of a game called warhammer that swallows wallets every turn it makes, but that's the draw to games like these. It's not so much chess, as it is a reenactment, even if its a fictional one. It's about "our little dudes" doing things and getting things done. From a character doing a last stand against a wave of enemies, to a tiny underdog taking out a leader with the luck of a dice throw.
I love your realizations and explorations in this video, excellent work!
I grew up on The Hobbit but completely agree. Tolkien noped out of writing Battle if the Five Armies so this feels very arch as a game.
But Bilbo uses the ring so often in the latter half of The Hobbit that I think a hidden movement game is where it's at
to be fair, it was basically a children's story so it makes sense why it wasn't exactly fleshed out very much. I think it tonally fits in with the rest of the story.
@@Sammo212 agreed. It would have been totally inappropriate to write out the battle.
I was saying more that the game missed an opportunity here
8:30 thanks for waking my dog up who was sleeping peacefully. 15 mins of utter chaos while she searched for the ball that didn't exist.
"WW2, but with Gandalf" is Magneto's origin story
The automated subtitles for the bit where Matt talks about wargames and rpgs had instead of "rolled dice" said "Robb Dice" and now all I can picture is a guy called Robb introducing randomness into any game he comes across.
I wanna roll right now
I’m Robb Dice and I came to get down
I watched this last night, and have had your voice saying "The Bobbit: Little Bobbit in the Big City" going through my head all day. You did this. 😂
What a wonderfully rich video. Over the few years that I've been watching your channel, it's been joyous to watch SU&SD grow to be even better at what you do best: welcome, inform, entertain, and often give pause for thought in a very heartfelt way.
Just as war games may actually be about a shared experience of roleplaying in a deeply beloved world, SU&SD reviews are always so much more than consumer advice (and all the better for it).
I'm still thankful for the card games video in which you recommended No Pun Included, who have their own take on the great qualities mentioned above. I continue to love watching both channels. Now, in turn, NPI are highlighting other reviewers that they love. Sums up how great this community can be and how there is space for everyone
Actually, in terms of realism, the wound token system making your armies collapse at a point of critical mass is how classical and medieval armies fell apart because they suffered most of their loses during routs when their organisation fell apart or their morale failed at their breaking point.
Loving the new animation, I'd kill to have that pear's vibes
Man, you really got me interested in seeing how SU&SD would review honest-to-god wargame. Either something super popular like 40K proper, or something niche like Star Fleet Battles
I first came across this channel when watching your Terra Mystica review and I've never looked back. Your conclusion was touching.
While I'll probably not play this game I think the reviews on this channel give me a great reflection of what to expect. Excellent review. Thank you. For example the fiddleness you point out draws me away but, the review of 1812: Invasion of canada drew me in. I love that whole series.
Came for the review, stayed for the uplifting message.
As a tabletop enthusiast the ending hit very differnet.
Thank you for more then just "reviews".
I think it's interesting how the hobby has changed so much. Now days, I'd much rather approach the older gentlemen playing wargames than I ever would the younger audience playing more "simple" games. The former is most of the time far nicer and more welcoming. Anyway. War gaming really is role playing. I'm somewhat active in Warhammer and I swear 99% of the excitement is players pretending to be in their army whether it be savage Orks or giant Imperial Knights.
Can agree: wargames let you tell good stories. Wonder if SUSD will ever cover a COIN game or Paths of Glory?
Also agree: board games are for all. It's just a case of finding the right ones for you.
I would love them to put their big boy pants on and tackle a COIN. It might help to show people that they actually aren't that inaccessible- maybe when the Mars revolt one comes out?
@@Pengi_SMILES They've reviewed Fire in the Lake and A Distant Plain, and talked about Pax Pamir and Labyrinth.
Thorin’s Mighty Strokes got him banned from public playgrounds - I laughed so hard at that joke. Was not expecting that.
You have hit the nail on the head here. What I love about War of the Ring and this game is that we are building our own version of the story.
That silent "no it works" gesture after the bath metaphor was perfect 😅 (14:10)
I agree with Matt’s analysis: I think there’s a reason D&D was directly descended from fantasy war gaming.
I'm more into wargames than any other genre in the hobby and I've always seen them as story generators. When I play a game like World War 1 I'm not just thinking about the best odds on the combat results table, I'm thinking about how the heroic Frenchmen going over the top are throwing themselves at the Germans in the hopes that they can do enough damage to distract them and slow down the advance into the Russian heartland. When I play A Distant Plain I'm thinking about the slowly crumbling government trying desperately to maintain order over an increasingly unstable country. My biggest gripe against the Leader franchise is how disconnected the missions feel from each other without a more solid overarching system that can explain the significance of this next air raid. Wargames are great because the stories they tell are about the fate of nations, with countless numbers of people clashing in epic battles. That's what makes it special to me.
Another wargamer saying that Matt was spot-on with his wargaming observation. I'm an old school BattleTech player and my friends and I are trying to rebuild the game's popularity in Dublin after the big boost the game has had in visibility thanks to the kickstarter and computer games. We held a player meetup recently and the newer people who had little experience of the game all loved how the granularity and detail gave you the feeling of a personal story of the guy in the cockpit of that particular 'Mech. I even said that night that the game is a fantastic vehicle for storytelling!
Hi Lorcan! I stopped scrolling because I recognized your name as I am also an old Battletech player. Hopefully the new boxes and KS help boost your efforts!
@@rburt3 It's looking good so far, we had 10 people for our first meetup, 5 new people and 5 regular/semi-regular people from my group. And that was with another 4-5 people who had to beg off at the last minute for various reasons. We've got another one coming up in 2 weeks and a con the week after (And planning has begun on a June meetup too) so hopefully that will help us build up momentum and we might try doing a tournament at a con in October.
The outro made me feel like I've never played a boardgame in my life tbh. Wonder if this could be because I got into board games around 2019 rather than when the hobby was much younger? I really don't feel it was acted at all, it's just not something I can relate to in any way.
The war gamers I've met have all been evangelically welcoming to play along with them, and in truth the only war game I've loved has been eclipse which stands out for having functionally no story behind it (I've always felt a bit silly roleplaying anything, no shade thrown)
As for people who look down on certain game genres I really can't say I could pin that behaviour more to one set of people than another, and in the board game circles I've hung around they ostrasize themselves pretty quickly and just get out of the way and form their own cliques conveniently enough.
"A botched robbery that ends in the murder of a dragon" I Love that description lol!
lmao I laughed so hard at the "someone else's trouser pockets" part of the video
The visual gags are immaculate and wholly on another level
Damn Matt, that ending was right in the kokoro, it made me feel joy and nostalgia. Thanks for that.
That was powerful stuff. Thanks for the quality videos, Matt!
I read the designer’s blogs about this game that were written leading up to it’s release, and the funny part is that essentially stated that all of the criticism here about the story not being as strong as LotR were challenges for them to develop.
This series really plays as the ultimate “What if” sandbox for Tolkien, but you have to really get creative when the characters or factions in question have so little written about them in the official lore.
Best Matt review. Right in the feels too
Couldn't agree more with the comment on wargames being more of an effort in collaborative storytelling.
And I feel that actually many players could benefit from this realization and not take some games so seriously (this also extends to tabletop miniature wargames, such as Warhammer, Infinity and Co).
I nearly did a spit take at "argably on paper". Great review as always!
Damn, that ending was unexpected. I loved it. Fun is what matters, when you're having fun you will have stories to tell.
Matt’s ace conclusion here of wargames as RP made me instantly realize that his cool big hair is in actuality just an extended receptacle for his cool big brain.
@17:42, that's the most beautiful part of the review right there.
Makes sense to me. I play Pathfinder and I pretend to be an Elf and roll dice and kill monsters and have a good time. I do basically the same thing when I play War of the Ring (except for then I get to be the bad guys half the time as well). I like the narrative aspect of it and that's why War of the Ring and Dune are two of my favorite games.
However, I don't know if that's universally true. I think of my brother, with whom I am playing most of the many games of War of the Ring I have played, and how he is not interested in playing rpgs. I think we play the same game but for somewhat different reasons and we enjoy it in different ways.
Nothing wrong with any of that. Just remember how ever deep your revelations are about the meaning of life or war games and why you enjoy them know that someone else may approach the same game for very different reasons.
Just great content. Greetings from Germany. Fan for many years.
I love War of the Ring and I completely agree about the story you build from each game is more important than who wins. I loved your review and very personal explanation about why you do what you do. Keep up building this wonderful channel.
Agreed on your take about wargames! Treating Battletech as a storytelling device with a chance for dramatic twists from the dice is very satisfying.
Speaking of games just being a vehicle for stories, my dad has a few funny stories about his time playing games with his high school friends. His brother-in-law was always an evil mastermind at board games and my dad has told the tale of a time when they all played the original 1970s version of Kingmaker. There was a 24 streak meta-game where my uncle managed to win 23 times in a row due to his ability to politic and drive a wedge between the other players, leading to this struggle where on game 24 he was finally defeated. My dad doesn't remember who actually won the game because to everyone it was just important that they'd managed to keep the alliance intact and prevent my uncle from getting win number 24.
The only one who turned out to be the bane of his devious, strategic mind was his own father who beat him in their only game of Conquest of the Empire where my uncle mustered a colossal army against my grandfather only for a lucky roll to kill Caesar and lose my uncle the game.
That was very sweet. A friend bought war of the ring and I’m very lucky he chose me as the shadow to his free people. He sent your review to get me prepared, we are now two games in and loving it. Subscribed, looking forward to seeing lots more of your thoughts on games :)
Well.....didnt expect to have a tear in my eye at the end of that Matt....but thank you for saying what I feel in my heart 💖💖
Wargames have a lot in common with role-playing games? This is no surprise to us role-players who are well-aware that RPGs grew DIRECTLY out of wargames. If you're ever wondering why the rules of D&D are so bizarrely abstracted, there you go.
Spot on with the roleplay thing. Tabletop army games are at their best when you don't care so much about winning and just enjoy the swings of the narrative.
Thanks for the video! "Comparison is the thief of joy." -- Teddy Roosevelt
I grew up around wargamers. My dad was a founding member of the club that was still going to this day last I checked. I moved back to the area a couple of years ago and decided to meet up with the club. It was fine but it did feel a little exclusive(and several of the guys had known me since I was a baby, they used to game at our house). I remember telling my dad that if they didn’t get some younger blood in the hobby, it’s going to go away.
The SUSD review of War of The Ring was the final "nudge" that pushed me over the edge to purchase the game several years ago. It was where I discovered that my youngest son also enjoys big, epic, all-day games. (He was 11 at the time.)
Due to its length, WoTR doesn't get to the table much but it has become a Thanksgiving Day staple for him and me.
We've been looking at Battle of the Five Armies but we both remain unconvinced that its for us - for all the reasons you mention that you aren't enamored with it.
Stay beautiful Matt, an absolutely wonderful and grounded video
Absolutely agree with that final observation. I've always loved the thematic roleplaying of wargames and the rules being so granular allow me to roleplay without needing the "social skills" that something like DnD somewhat require. I still remember my third game of war of the ring where we were playing it as a 2v2. My ally and I were playing the forces of order and despite our best attempts, Rohan was destroyed, Rivendell was in ashes, Lorien was caught in a bloody siege, the northern kingdoms had hidden away behind their walls and the forces of shadow had amassed an army worthy of mordor at the gates of minis tirith. The shadow player only needed to take one more settlement in order to win, Frodo and Sam were at the last step of mount Doom, every member of the fellowship had perished on the rise to the summit and Gollum had his eye on the ring due to us disbanding him earlier in the game (shadow had a card that let them redraw a corruption token if gollum was the guide). Frodo was at 11/12 corruption so we were running out of options quick, we decided the only course of action we could take was to attempt to move frodo (Gollum had an ability that let him negate a single point of corruption each time the enemy drew a token, so if they drew any 1's we'd be safe and destroy the ring) So we anxiously decide to move the fellowship. We hold our breath as the shadow players draw a token... a 1 is drawn, but before we can celebrate, the shadow player reminds us that Gollum had his eye on the ring, declaring that they're going to redraw a token. At this point we're sure we've lost, a last minute betrayal leading to the end of the world. I don't think I've ever experienced such excitement from a board game as when the shadow player drew a second 1, meaning the fellowship could finally destroy the ring.
I think what made this game so special to me is that organically, we'd managed to roleplay out the events of the book, or at the very least managed to emulate the emotional beats of the narrative and I never would've gotten that experience if not for this wonderful game.
I am not an old man but I come from miniatures wargames background and I totally agree with you, I have played since 2000, literally thousands of games of warhammer and other miniatures games like confrontation and lord of the rings non competitively and always it boils down to the stories we create on out tables, that's the meaning of these games for me, like minded people sharing stories with their little miniatures and their dice, like a different kind of role playing game...
First edition of Warhammer 40k was a roleplaying game.
You had the army vs army battle bit. But you also needed a game master.
Matt hits it dead on with the similarity between wargames and roleplaying games. Every wargame session I have ever played that I enjoyed always had roleplaying, and silly hats involved.
Using the setting and the game mechanics as a storytelling engine is what makes them great.
One of your best episodes yet
I'm curious as to the assertion that war gamers would look down on other gamers. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have very seldom encountered a board gamer who is anything but happy to see others enjoying games, no matter what they are.
Congratz, you just got a sub from an old man! Looking forward to following the channel.
i don't claim to be a Game Scholar but i thnk you're super correct on the comparison between rpgs and wargames -- especially if you look at gygax's early D&D work, i'm pretty sure the framework for those battle-heavy dungeon crawls were explicitly based on the general idea of wargame-iness, with the addition of exploration and a dash of storytelling. nowadays that storytelling dash is kinda the main draw but all those parts are still there and come from the same common ancestor. also if i'm totally wrong please do correct me!
Completely agree about the wargame observation and the previous comment about Squad Leader. I love wargames but my friend and I will only play historical games in which we have an interest, such as WW2 Normandy, The Pacific Campaign, Waterloo, Blenheim ( What !) Games where honestly we don't care who wins but are a vehicle for conversation about a common interest as we play. And when the dice play rough with us it is easy to assume it was the bullet, shell, bomb that randomly and unexpectedly hit the right or wrong target as happens in real war. At the end of the game we have refought history as armchair generals, talked about the subject, had a good time and for a moment remembered the courage and sacrifice of the men and women who actually did it for real.
Role playing games (specifically, the original Dungeons and Dragons) originated as a spinoff from the Chainmail war game, so it makes sense that you'd think that war games feel like RPGs. They both have the same ancestral DNA.
Its a shame that his conclusions is largely negative. I actually find Battle of the Five armies to be just a different kind of fun to its bigger brother but still an amazing experience. Its rich in the lore and character the same as its bigger brother if you know the story of the Hobbit. Just all on a slightly less grand scale.
Is it a shame really? He directly said if he was a big fan of the hobbit he'd certainly like it more. And then explained why in general, there probably are fewer fans of the hobbit than LotR. I'd love to play it but seeing as I don't have WotR yet I'd probably start there
That's cool! Glad you like it more.
@@ArtaxForever A shame as in I enjoyed the game so wish he had had as good an experience as I felt, and that it might put people off trying what I think is a great game. I am lucky enough to have the collectors edition that comes with painted minis and a much bigger board so that will mitigate some of his complaints as space and unit identity isn't an issue. Still loved the review though, very well shot and edited.
@@leddave I think the SUSD guys dislike these larger army comp games for a while now, people change and so do their tastes. Power to you for having fun with it though!
absolutely spot on about war games. you obviously try to win, but who cares, its more about the "I cant believe that happened!" or "your two goblins lasted how long!" and i use to game at a store, that had the same types of groups, but there was no "looking down on" by anyone. the older gentlemen were just as ecstatic to see the younger kids enjoying the same hobby. they even introduced some of the high school aged patrons to some WW2 games and vise versa.
I agree war games (at least historic) is about simulating an event or events with mechanics. Sometimes its not balanced because the event was not balanced. What makes a good wargame is how it achieves this. Some of the most simplest of war games can be just as enjoyable as some of the most complex and fiddly. Its about the result of those mechanics achieving that moment when you go "I can't believe that happened and how incredible that was even if I lost." It just has to make sense to a wargamer. Whether it was through the layer of chrome or by just how simple yet real it felt. This is what is true about roleplayers too. Some prefer a very crunchy rule system others prefer a very flexible or simple rp system to achieve that great story telling memory that they will repeat to their kids and other friends of how they killed a dragon. Why most wargames and roleplaying games have randomness is it takes out that calculating part. The old say a plan is only as good as till contact with the enemy is made.
As far as those older gentlemen I had the same experience. They were more than willing to show me when I was a young kid the game, explain things and let me join in. I never understood this view of people who said they look down at other games. This included the historical miniature wargamers who often have their children, both sons and daughters, helping out setting things up and moving the miniatures around those massive boards. I believe it always was the younger kids were drawn to other parts of the hobby because it did not seem as complex (which often it isn't) or war not hard to get into. Plus I always believed because they saw older gentlemen playing in it and all the kids their age were playing other games. Which is always odd because I always saw so called older gentleman playing in almost every game in the general board game hobby. Yea I just never experienced that looking down on feeling. They invited me to play and join and were very welcoming. I consider myself more of a Wargamer/Roleplayer more than a general board gamer first because that is where my taste is more, but I have a ton of nonwargame board games.
Excellent review. I fell in love with boardgames when I was 4 and then with wargames when I was 8. I am nearly 60 now. The wargames are so much better than what I had when I was young although a few are still worth a play. I find that outside of the top 10 as rated on BGG there are only few that grab my attention and time in the modern games (maybe 1775, Hammer of the Scots and RAF battle of britain). Games like War of the Ring, Twilight Struggle, Imperial Struggle, Triumph and Tragedy and Sekigahara are just so good that games lower down like the Battle of the 5 Armies are mostly just not worth the time unless they hit a very particular chord. This review is very helpful and confirms my desire not to devote time to it, although no doubt if it had been around when I was younger perhaps I would have loved it given the lcak of other better modern designs.
Strangely when I was 8 and first started playing wargames (Avolon Hill's Midway) I looked down my nose at others at that time for playing such simplistic alternatives and now I am nearly 60 I find the opposite occurs more often than not although I agree that wargamers definitely have a supeiority complex that is not always well deserved. The games are often complex for the sake of it but not necessarily fun and exciting as a gaming experience which now my years are short becomes more important than ever.
Very interesting to ear your feelings about the whole hobby! That's great to speak about our deep feelings instead of only about rules!
With a group of friends we regularly play a few games that we like to explore and explore again: CCNapoleonics, SWRebellion, TFMars, Eclipse, Wingspan, Zombicide for example. But one of these friends is a compulsive shopper and apparently would rather change the games than explore them in depth! Result: He ends up with a game stock that we won't have time to play let alone explore in depth: Twilight Imerium 4, Dune Imperium, War of the Ring, Ark Nova, 878 Vikings, Brass Birmingham and many others gathering dust without ever having been opened! LOL Too many games kill the game for me! "To choose is to give up" says the proverb and since we will never have time to play them all: I prefer to choose a good game and explore it well for several months (or several years) before moving on to the next one! Because our lives are full of other things (like for me my beautiful family, my Harley Davidson, photography etc etc etc).
Well done and keep going!
Who is Thorin?!?!? Thorin is one of the main protagonists of the hobbit and leads the company of dwarves+ is the heir to the lonely mountain which the entire battle for 5 armies is about :)
I've only just picked up on the redone pear visuals, looks like they were on the last few vids too. They look great!
Thanks!
Matt: Genius. Respect.
Is there a plethora of tokens bulging in your trouser pocket, or are you just "Happy as a Bobbit" to play "The Battle of the Five Armies"? LOL
Wow, that was excellent on so many levels. War of the Ring is my favourite game of the 3500 or so I’ve tried these past 40 years. I didn’t like Battle of the Five Armies much at all. Haven’t played a genuine “across the table” war game with a friend for about 10 years, and don’t really miss it.
Love this video and the message at the end about why games can all coexist together. 👍🏻
Absolutely spot on about texture and detail in wargames. There is exactly one youtuber who covers wargames that I follow, to the point of paying for his off-site videos, and that's because he makes every battle an exceptionally brilliant story. He has nothing in production values, or pre/post match debriefs or anything else that other channels do, but what he does have is the ability to tell a story using some bits of (admittedly beautifully painted) plastic and chucking dice.
(hat tip to all the other WintersSEO fans out there)
I'm almost halfway through the video and I just keep thinking "Man, this would make a sweet video game."
Like, imagine all these rules but things like "remembering to draw an extra card for terrain bonuses", calculating black and white dice seperately, and fiddling with wound tokens are all done automatically in the backend, and you could have on-screen indicators to remind you that such mechanics exist to be considered in the first place. Otherwise the exact same game with animated figures and a 3D map.