So true. I have a game that I love, Letters from Whitechapel, but my family can't stand playing it. I can only guilt them into playing it on my birthday and father's day :-)
“If your map squeezes 50% of your players in just 10% of your board, *use a different map projection!”* My God I felt that in my soul. Screw trying to make the map to scale, make it to *convenience!*
Make the map ancient, with regions closer to the Eastern Mediterranean larger and more important with Scotland and Norway thin splayed out and teetering on the edge.
@@nerdytom6881 Think it's to compensate for the edge acting like a wall. No enemies beyond the edge, so to increase the number of neighbors you make the cells bigger.
I enjoy Quinn’s visible grimace as he’s coming to terms with reaching the age where you find yourself enjoying that piece of furniture. The 21 year old version of ourselves would hate us. Now I’m off to tend to my succulents.
I mean, a hardwood table is always expensive and can range from 300-2000 easily, so I can understand if someone is considering getting a hardwood table that they might aim for the mid range table that also doubles as a boardgame specialty table.
I think 21 year old me would look in awe upon and speak with a hushed reverence of someone who was able and willing to afford a specialized gaming table to share with guests.
When I was 19 my boss would pay me and two other members of staff to come to his house on Thursdays (instead of going to work) to play Civilisation (as it was then called). The only way he could get enough players .. who would stay.
The real tragedy is how this game sounds right up my alley. I've dropped thousands of hours into Paradox grand strategies, I'd gladly spend a full day on something like this. Unfortunately, even for me, their dream demographic, I won't be buying it. Because even if it's right up my alley, it's not up mine-and-half-a-dozen-or-more-of-my-friends' alley.
Right? I can't even find 3 other people in my board game group willing to play anything from the COIN series with me. I can't even comprehend being able to find 8 other people to play something like this.
Try "Civilization" by Gibson games (not Sid Mieir). It's the game this game HEAVILY "borrows" from but seats a reasonable player count. It was designed a while ago in the 80's I believe, and the license ended up with Gibson Games. Much more affordable, still a long game, but a far more reasonable player count it's designed around.
"Someone's getting cranky, someone's getting hungry, and we can't get off the tour bus because we don't want to admit that we've failed at leisure" hahahaha I LOVE IT
As someone who dabbles in wood working, $1700 (£1000) for a well made solid wood table is very reasonable. A solid walnut table in material alone would run you around $500-800 (not sure what the current UK price on walnut is). The Megan looks to be built from Oak so a bit cheaper but each table is going to be many hours of 10s of skilled laborers work too. The nice thing is well made furniture can out last you, buy once cry once.
I agree for myself, I was very lucky to move into my current place from people who owned proper solid-wood furniture and sold it to me for a token price to save shipping it overseas. This stuff was years old when I got it and after ten years it's still as good as it was, some of it is even so old it has hand-cut screws. I love it, and even if it means the equivalent of a few days' work a year in keeping it nice, that's less than two trips to Ikea or such. But I also understand why most of my friends do not. None of us own homes or could ever realistically buy in, and modern rentals are increasingly unstable and short-term. Some of my friends who are entirely fine tenants have moved multiple times a year simply because the market in my city is a garbage fire. When you're moving that much, furniture becomes a liability.
Ill counter that with a composite tabletop reinforced with steel runners mounted via massive lag bolts to heavy duty steel folding legs. 6 foot by 6 foot banquet table for the wild price of 189 dollars. Very sturdy, will last for manymany years. It doesnt look pretty all on its lonesome but a tablecloth and neoprene mats fix that up quick.
And Asia expansion?? Need I recall this foreshadowing quote: "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Asia' - but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line! ' Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
SU&SD reviews are comprehensive enough for me that apart from some occasions, I actually feel encouraged to have a more rational and thorough inspection over the game. That always kills the hype, but probably does save me a couple grands?
As the owner of a Geek Chic gaming table (Bought before they went under, obvs.) I think your review of the gaming table is spot on. It's a great thing if you've got it, and it does bring joy, but nobody should think of them as a must have item. Mine was just a daydream until I got a personal monetary windfall I wasn't expecting and didn't have a particular need for. Now I love it, and I use it every day, as I got the version with the built in drawers that function as laptop desks, but yeah, they're such a niche item and right now with the COVID situation I almost feel dumb having it as I literally CAN'T use it as intended.
@@MortlachNL That's the point I suppose: If someone has enough money to buy whichever games they like (and it may not be a super long wish list for some in the first place) and plenty to spare, then it's maybe worth considering a table like this. Not gonna apply to many people though...
The thing is that eventually everyone has to buy a main table/dining table/gaming surface. These typically cost $300-$400 minimum unless they are literally IKEA wood on supports. Buying a dedicated table that functions as both and can store a game in progress is amazing. But, yes, it is completely a luxury item.
Also, only amateurs count the tokens on the board in the census phase. Pros memorize the total number of tokens, then count the tokens in their stock each round and deduct that from their total number of tokens and... I'm not making it better, am I? (But seriously, it's much easier.)
Anders Gabrielsson spot on. It really isn't a big deal or take long with everyone obviously just counting their own tokens. I bought this just to rekindle the great memories I have of playing Advanced Civ - I may never play it, but I don't care 😂
Well you are not lying. This minimal calculation is faster once the board is fuller than the pool. Of course it is stupid when the board is managable. I do something similar during work (logistics). To know how many units of a certain good are in a truck I could count everything that passed into it. While loading, with no certain order, fast. Logistic is messy. Or I count what is left and substract it. Which has a way smaller error rate. My fellow coworkers dont like maths. They think it is to difficult. In reality its faster and easier
I just noticed today how great I am at counting fast, because he said that no one likes the census, but I could probably count all of the tokens on the board within one and a half minutes. The same reason I know the place you'll land on in Monopoly one you roll stops rolling.
"Unlike any game you've ever played." Except for all of those hours and weekends I've spent playing Avalon Hill's Civilization and Advanced Civilization. Especially with the Western Expansion Map. I wish I was in college again so I could get 17 friends together and spend the weekend playing Mega Empires now.
Being a fan of Advanced Civ, I was excited to hear about MegaCiv when it was announced for Essen 2015, and fortunate enough to get hold of a copy at the time, and have run an annual game for friends since then (sadly this year's iteration is still on hold). The updates that they've made to the game are, IMO, great, and improve the flow of the game significantly. I highly recommend you pick up Western/Eastern Empires (they've split the game into the two halves for the reprint, but it's the same material from MegaCiv, which lets you choose between the East or West for "smaller" games of 9 or fewer players.)
They know and acknowledge that, around 15:20. I wonder, if the name change just derivate from the fact, that nowadays many people think Sid Meier rather than Francis Tresham, so they don't confuse it.
Always remember that you can build your own board game table! I said the same thing on the NPI RUclips channel; I got a table from a neighbor for free that I used in college as a table for my apartment. Once I was ready, I sanded it, stained it, and converted the well area so that I could play games in the recessed area and did it all in a weekend. You don't have to have any knowledge of wood working and does not cost much money; overall I think I spent around $50 to convert it. While it is not high end and is lacking many features that are advertised with other gaming tables, it still serves the purpose that me and my wife intended for it.
@@GeneralNickles "I personally would love to build one, but simply don't have anywhere to put it. I even have all the tools and most of the material needed, but just not the space." If I could convince everyone to replace the dining room table with a simple gaming table, I would. Especially one with a recessed well. However, that's just not happening. Maybe next house!
@@kereminde Living in a small apartment I don't even have space for a dining room table so... I agree gaming tables are fabulous as I've used my friend's before, but they just aren't feasible for some people.
Advanced Civ is a nostalgic University-days favorite of mine. Whenever I meet my old Uni buddies a time or two a year, we inevitably bring up the time Thor got cocky and declared victory, so we spent the next 4 hours trying to beat him back to the stone age. We never did, but who cares? At what price ageless memories? Fast forward 25 years and we played an 18p game of Mega Civ on New Year's Day 2019 at the FLGS. 12 hours and 2 meals later, we called it with a stage to go on the AST. Sore backs and cranky dispositions abounded. Worth it.
There are even bigger and more ridiculous games like Campaign for North Africa. Frankly, Advanced Civ is good for its time but has been largely made obsolete by newer designs. Mare Nostrum is the best modern playable candidate that captures much of the same feel.
Get the Designer's Edition of Steve Jackson's Ogre. It's even bigger than this, and is the update of a game that originally came in an 6"x4" ziplock bag.
@@thomasellysonting3554 Nope, there are no games that have the same feel as this. It will still be played when Mare Nostrum is gathering dust in attics...
Well, he forgot to mention that gaming tables aren't built as extendable tables. You have to always live with the size that you chose, while I can always extend my "normal" table from 4,25' x 3' length to 7' x 3' length. Useful if I wanted to host a 7p game of Caverna.
I have played a total of 4 games of this game. 3 back in the 90-ies and one last year. Each game have been soo long, and people have been everything between moody and exuberant while playing it. But Every single time have been Epic and memorable. This is an undertaking and I fully understand that just like I will never consider climbing Everest or diving the Mariana Trench with James Cameron there are people who will never even consider playing this game. But if you are interested in larger,longer games and are of a patient mindset, then this is an experience you really shouldn't rob yourself of. I can not express how unique the experience is.
No one is going to believe me and this is embarrassing to admit, but I was truly peeing while Quinns explained how army management, movement, and combat work... and he was right. Uncanny.
I believe you, this happened to me exactly like you described just now! Felt so incredibly unlikely to time it so well with his seemingly randomly chosen example. Wait. Did Quinns time himself peeing to make that comparison more credible?
Where I live it's challenging getting a 3rd player, 4th most difficult..5+ forget it.. why i focus on, lean towards 2 player games (be it specifically designed for that (say Star Wars Rebellion) and/or multi-player ones that scale down well to 2 players, don't lose much or any without the full player count (say Marvel Legendary). But I do like epic grand games..this one is definitely tempting (ok ..not gonna buy it) BUT wud if they had a 2 possibly 3 player version playable within 2.5 hrs, eh 3.5 max.
It's incredibly fascinating to see a modern review of one of the foundational hobby boardgames (fight me!) pitched to an audience who has never heard of it. Back in my day, all gamers at least knew about Civilization even if they had never played it, and my group played it a lot. I also used to play it with my dad and sisters in the summer - we'd set it up in the morning, play a bit, go for a swim, play a bit, have lunch, play a bit, go for another swim, play a bit, have dinner, play a bit, and maybe finish before the last swim of the day, or we'd keep it set up until the next day. Ah, good memories.
same here; I discovered this game in my early days in the navy. we'd spend every weekend in port down in our training division classroom (on the USS Nimitz) playing with 7-9 players. loads of fun, we played with a lot of optional rules...Imperial Civ, Trade Cities, restricted trading, ...
Right? He hit "And this is where Western Empires becomes like no game you've ever played" around the six minute mark, and I had to raise a finger in protest.
@@ytgg405 Not weird at all really. I mean, people still get excited about plays written 400 years ago - by that standard this is a very recent game indeed....
The game looks like it would be great as an app. No manual marker-placement, no manual census, no reaching around the table to trade or draw cards... then it may be fun. Oh, and if you leave or lose, just start another round with different lobby
Woodie Wu There's a DOS version that's abandonware. Advanced Civilization, a board game adaptation. There's also a play-by-e-mail version online of this game.
These gaming table commercial are a little pathetic ...... maybe 5% of people can actually afford them ... u can litterally go into any shop and get there most expensive tables WITH CHAIRS for the same price
"That looks vaguely like Avalon Hill's Civilization." "That IS Avalon Hill's Civilization." The-Civilization-Before-Sid-Meyer is definitely the game I've sunk the most time into... And not because I've played it more times than other games. Usually, it's a multi-day deal after a holiday, where the family gathers around and eats leftovers sandwiches. Watching through the reviews, it seems the cards are changed for the most part - not to mention the map is shifted to the west (used to be a lot more breathing room for Babylon/Assyria,) - and I'm wondering how much the disaster changes have changed game balance. You it is stressed in this review how likely it is that someone should just walk away from the table in a losing situation, but Civilization really did have comeback potential on those disasters. Like Civil War, where the big civilizations strait GIVE AWAY half their empire to the weaker foe. (I mean, why make those enormous Babylonians any bigger, right?) And in situations like the ever-present Famines, you turn over a certain number of "safe" tokens, and what's more, deal out additional death to others. So a small empire with the right advancements might entirely duck under the minimum for a disaster, and open up holes in their enemies who thought everything was going swimmingly. It was possible to be put upon for awhile, but as the game is so MASSIVE, it's usually a matter of time before an empire halved by Civil War gets it right back... Or suddenly acquires land on the other side of the Mediterranean. The big thing that took a long time to ingrain on me with Civilization is that it's not a wargame. Empires ebb and flow and stretch about like colorful amoebas, but the strength of a civilization is in their advancement cards, not their land grabs. It doesn't matter if Crete keeps getting kicked out to its islands, as long as they went into Coinage early to fund some mad city-building, they're going to be in the race for Democracy and Philosophy, despite only ever seeing 5% of the board.
@@2themaxgaming Nope he had it since he stopped playing netrunner iirc. He talked about it in their death of netrunner convention talk. Iirc that was at SHUX 18?
It's a Netrunner link symbol, but you probably already knew that. If you didn't, you should start playing Netrunner right now(via NISEI or finding old FFG copies of it). And run netshield.
In the US, that tattoo is identical to the logo of a major Wall Street financial company. We all know he's a hard core capitalist so it just made sense to me.
This reminded me a lot of the Civilization board game. Turns out it's a renamed version of 'Mega Civilization', which is indeed a version of the Civilization board game.
I was thinking the same -- I played this a lot in the early/mid 90s. Then I heard "ooh there might be a computer version" and everyone was really excited about it. It was the Sid Meier game of course.
@@richardclegg8027 Au contraire! There actually WAS a computer version of Avalon Hill's Civ game, along with versions of Kingmaker and Diplomacy! I had all three of them.
@@TheSevenar absolutely there was and I also had it but it was years later. That is why the adaption of the board game civilisation was "advanced civilisation" and "civilisation" was an unrelated game. :)
I bought a rubber mat with felt cover for £80 that fits my dining table perfectly. Would rather she’ll out £80 than £1000 to have the benefit of felt for picking up cards
Another alternative is getting a playmat for cardgames like MTG. They are usually individual but you can put a few side to side to cover up the space you need and they are easy to roll up and store. A lot of them are also machine washable.
If you can find it (on ebay is the best bet) suede backed neoprene fabric is fantastic. Feels lovely, slight bounce to it, nice for . We've got about 5 meters of it, going to be using it to make a table topper for out coffee table/dining room table once my woodworking skills are above shambolic. 👍 The other thing you could get is a couple of large (or very large) mouse mats. We have a 450x900mm mat just for playing mystic vale on. It cost £8 iirc. Also have a couple of 1200x600mm mouse mats to completely cover the table. Not as nice, but real cheap and available in big sizes and occasionally various colours. Ours are just black with an overclockers uk logo.
I was like, hey that looks like Civilization. Then you described movement and I was like, that looks a lot like Civilization. Then you described the Advancement and trading. And I was like...Civ? Then you showed Civilization.
Western/Eastern Empires is the split version of Mega-Civilization, which had a short (3000 units) print run in 2015, and is a refinement and expansion of Advanced Civilization. boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/184424/mega-civilization
I can recommend the Geeknson budget tables, particularly the Bristol model - it's cheaper, but still very sturdy, large surface, and the main thing I love about these tables is that I leave games set up or halfway in play all the time.
For me the option of covering a game in progress with the top part of the table is a killer feature of gaming tables! Imagine playing a weekend of gloomhaven and not having to put everything back at the end of the session. Like you can set up it on Friday night and play 2-3 nights in a row and still have a fully functional dinner table during the day. Sounds just amazing!
Jim C yep. Saw that right away. Depressing to see it getting the hype here. 30 years and we’re back at Civ again? Hey, did you know it was Civilisation that killed AH? They took legal action against the PC game and Hasbro, who seemed to own the PC rights, just went out and bought them and pretty much shut them down. Kept the name though. Now that IS depressing 😞.
Yeah exactly what I immediately thought. At least Francis Tresham gets a design credit. I chuckled when Quinn said "like nothing else you've played before".
My favourite Mega Civilisation story is when I was playing as the Minoans and doing quite well until a calamity hit and I lost all my cities. I was about ready to throw my toys out the pram and storm off when my neighbour was hit by a civil revolt and had to give half his stuff to the player with the least on the board, me. The usual play is to flip your people in the border terrorities and be done with it but losing all my cities meant most of my unit tokens were on the board which in turn meant my neighbour had to give me half his cities (can't give me normal units if I don't have enough tokens left) effectively transporting my entire civilization a few thousand kilometers to the west.
First off, thank you Quinns for teaching me what the slat of wood is for that I've had with my gaming table for OVER TWO YEARS and not had a clue what it was for...I have joined you in 'egg-on-my-face' town. Secondly, I would totally agree with what you've said. It sparks absolute joy for me the table, and I love it as a feature piece, but they're definitely a luxury item not a necessity. I happened to luck out and save a bunch of money when buying my house and used that as an excuse to get one and I would say it has been more than worth the money - but the outlay sure as hell isn't for everyone.
This is my favorite game of all time (back from its days as Advanced Civilization) but do agree that its not for everyone. With the right group of folks though, its amazing.
My friends and I played Advanced Civ most weekends when I was in High School. I wish I had that kind of free time (and enough other players w/the same desire to play it) these days.
Its best to think of Advanced Civ and its more recent incarnations as civilization rollplaying games, have fun with what you get dealt and don't worry about winning. Also if you approach this as a war game you will loose every time to the players that approach this as a negotiating game and see warfare as a means of conflict resolution only to be used when every other option has failed.
@CommandoDude Don't know about this, but AH ACiv had a maximum of 2 disasters you could get hit by per turn, and they started with the least bad, so you never got hit that bad, and over the course of the game, everyone gets hit a few times, so it generally evens out. A lot of them can benefit behind players (Civil War for example), or impact players with less quite as much (Famine, from memory).
You can play Mega Civ at Gencon if you want the full 18 player experience. I do it each year, and it's a lot of fun. A couple notes to the video - if you are smaller than a larger country, they basically can't eat you since you move after them, so wherever they invade, you just move out and let their army starve to death. It's basically impossible to war someone to death unless you have Military and can move after them with a larger army. Second, we play with a mercy rule so that calamities can't take you below like 20 unit points, so nobody can get knocked out of the game due to just bad luck. Advanced Civ / Mega Civ is one of the greatest gaming experiences of all time, and I think everyone owes it to themselves to experience it at least once.
When Quin plays this game his favorite Set to get is the Bone cards. He loves the Bone. He says "Bigger the better. I love the Big Bone". To which his fellow players say 'We know you do my good sir, we know you do'.
Something worth adding to the table review; buying a felt cloth is really cheap. We went one step further and attached it to a large board to put on our tabletop when we play, so it's always wrinkle-free. It's a real joy to play on felt, and while it can't store a game between sessions like a recessed table, it has the advantage of being much easier to put drinks on. Plus it costs a couple % of the price.
Wartop games in 2032: And now you can in addition to the Americas Expansion pack, combine all 3 games to form: "Ginormous Empires" BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! for 99.99 you can purchase the Space Force expansion set! (extra tables not included)
"Have you heard of Ancient Hatti with their worship of the Mother-Goddess Kattahha? No, you haven't! And it's not because you are uneducated. It's because they were losers." This is why I keep coming back to SU&S. I love the effort you guys put in research to make it coalesce with sharp wit and a reliable review. Keep up the good work!
Regarding tables for gaming. I personally use a pool table (cheaper or around a $500 model). I sometimes itch for a gaming table like so, but then I wonder if there is enough of an advantage over the pool table I already have... Although being able to put a cover back on to preserve a board state like War of the Ring or Star Wars Rebellion is awesome. The assesories are a wondeful advantage over a pool table... but it is such a serious amount of money over a table that can be used for the actual game of pool/billards as well.
you have this amazing ability of giving me wings of excitement floating over a game thinking to myself " OH THIS IS AMAZING " only half way through the video I find those wings burning down like Icarus and thinking to myself while crashing" Holy HELL WHAT A CRAP GAME ! " .. even talking about the table I can really feel sincerity of your ups and downs. keep it up. love your videos
Pedantry Corner: If you're going to do a call back to the first Civilization, you really ought to illustrate it with that edition, not the much later Gibson's edition (which was the third version, I think).
I love that they kept the part where you can lie about your traded cards from the old civilization game. That was the best and most fun way to end a friendship 😁
@@vederianl9723 Surely that would just ruin the game for him? Since it would be a lot harder for him to get sets, and people could just ignore him to trade with each other.
One word of warning about gaming tables with leaves (the things you put across to make it a normal table) is that unless your house happens to have exactly the same moisture levels as the workshop it was made in, and the moisture levels don't vary depending on the time of year, you will get expansion or contraction of the leaves. My friend bought one and after a while it became difficult to put the leaves back in the table because they had all expanded slightly. That was more than one word.
I love MegaCiv (and likely also Western Empires). If anybody wants to try this...your best bet is probably to look online if somebody is running games in your city. They'll be ecstatic to get new players to get that dream 18 player game. Much more likely than you convincing 8 other friends to spend a weekend on this. Also, it's not really a wargame: love your neighbours, help your neighbours, laugh at those people over on the other side of the board being busy losing by fighting each other. Beat your neighbours by trading better and managing your calamities better.
Also also, this game (meaning the original) is the reason "quick civ game" is a holy grail for so many designers. Personally I think trying to pack the epic experience of Civilization and its successors into a 90-minute game is futile, but I love to see everyone try. Additional point: The heart of this game is the set collection and trading. Everything else is just to get you to that. (Which isn't to say that buying advances and shuffling tokens around on the map isn't fun, but if you take away the trading all that's left is a hollow shell.)
It's possible in 4 hours. We used to do this with 8 players at the conventions repeatedly. 1: Everyone does simultaneous movement unless there is a possible conflict for space. 2: Everyone has a D10 with their color in front of them. They hand it to the person managing the cards when they are done, and the person verifies their cities. Then places it in front of the tray of cards. This proceeds until you have a line of dice in front of the cards in proper order, with the number showing. Stacks of cards are placed by each die. You ask if they plan to buy gold. 3: Cards are given out along with the die at the end of the round. If done correctly, this takes seconds, as dealing cards is done while players clean up. Each round aside from trading typically takes 2-3 minutes(!). 4: Trading rounds are 5 minutes via a 2 stage timer app. Usually 3 is all that is needed. 5: Last rule - each person is given a calculator to help them with math and obtaining cards. 8 players, we never ran over the 4 hour slot limit, not in decades of playing.
@@josephoberlander I've played fast games at conventions once or twice (though it was a long time ago), and simultaneous movement is a must, but four hours is still way beyond 90 minutes.
Oh boy, with a game that size on the books, now I can't wait for a review of the campaign for North Africa. (All jokes aside for april fools or something like that I would love to get that monstrosity reviewed)
An alternative to that table, which i find addresses that drink problem is a table riser. I built one recently, with some mdf/shellac coating//gorilla spray glue/felt that slots right on top of my table, and just sits there like a permanent piece. It raises the gaming space just a couple inches above the table and hangs over the table just a few inches on the short sides (I'm rocking one of those rectangle foldable tables). I love it! the felt, the keeping of drinks on the actual table (as any spills will just go underneath the game), and the ability to slide it around the table, keeping homework under while gaming, has been a great quality of life improver! Definitely a suggestion that I'm prompted to give whenever the talk of a gaming table comes up, as even the Kickstarter that are coming out are about a 10th of the cost.
A great video, as always. I do love how you touched on one of our issues with board games, when someone has clearly lost, or has decided that they have lost, and have checked-out of the experience. We've argued that it effects the game, whereas we would continue to make decisions based on getting the best outcome even if we're clearly losing, others just give up and don't care, allowing their neighbours to benefit far greater had the player continued as best as they can. Then you've got the issues of what kind of players you're with. With us, some will take pity and let these unlucky players ride out the rest of the game without attacking them, whereas others will agressively seek to take advantage and gobble them up. Also, sometimes you even get a player that is losing decide to do something completely alien to how they've played up until that point, and decide to back someone else to try to ensure they win. Personally, I don't like it, as some of these games take a long time to get through, and nothing makes it more invalidated then someone throwing the game in the end stages, even for the player that ends up winning.
We played this as "Civilization" (the board game before the video game) in Grad School .... we'd play through the night into the next afternoon. It was brilliant. I'm glad it's back
And we have to remember this is a guy who enjoys War of the ring and Twilight Imperium 4th ed.and even he thinks this game is long. And at first I thought the out of play tokens were for humor, oh my.
the primary purpose of the out of play tokens is for sectioning off the parts of the board you don't have when playing with less than 9 players. play area has to scale with number of players. You don't use the entire board all the time, the rules would not scale properly. in fact, with 5 players, you only use one of the board halves.
Map is pretty much the same, but they filed off some of the rough edges. For instance, you don't get skunked on trade cards if you happen to go late in AST order, they now have 0-value water cards so at least you can trade...
If you're handy or you have a handy friend, and want a gaming table, i recommend exploring the option of building one! My father and I put one together for just under $100 CDN and at a half decent quality too. Lots of tutorials online to help, took a few days and a couple curse words but I love it.
Built my own game table with all the bells and whistles for only $750-$800. No electronics on mine, but everything else. I actually went with one long piece on top. It’s also my dining room table though so it gets more use as a table than it does for the games. Note: this was only materials. I’m volunteer for a community handyman group so most of the tools I used were borrowed, and I had some experts tweak my design. It only took 4 Saturday’s in total to build. But now I have a gaming table for life. So well worth the investment.
It is ... it's the natural successor to AH Civ/Adv-Civ. With some improvements to address some of the issues with the old game. It's no longer as easy to go after the leader when you realize who that is.
YEP, this is kinda of enraging knowing this is one of the best games ever made by the best game company ever, and no credit given. This is Civilization not western empires.
And yet he somehow manages to avoid mentioning the word "Civilization" even once, despite showing the game. It's definitely deliberate, but why?? Is it the publisher's doing? This is Civilization, the grand-daddy of all later Civ games and probable inspiration for the classic Civilization computer game. Give it some credit. For a journalist, Quinns seems woefully uninterested in a very important piece of board game history. Civilization was basically a euro game 15 years before there were euro games.
I love that review of the table. "I don't recommend it, but god I love mine so much." For the people with the money, and the want, that looks like one of the best tables I've seen offered, so I agree with him. Looks good, but all gaming tables are pricey
It felt like a very honest review, which is why I've popped down to look at the comments. Sounds like something which is nice to have but not necessarily buy
For censuses, wouldn't it be easier to count what's in front of your play area (not on the board) and whoever has the least goes first? You could even keep them stacks in easy counting piles.
When this all passes and we can sit around a table once more- will you do a huge long stream a la the lovely and hilarious TE4? Must I beg SUSD? Must I? But seriously- if you could edit it down to the good parts of a day long stream- I think that would be a hit.
Q: On gaming tables that can be used as dining tables: Where DOES the liquid go when a drink (or pitcher) is spilled? I'm trying to envision how it could go anywhere but the felt.
Although I’ve only played its predecessors, this game is hands-down one of my all-time favorites. Yes it takes all day to play,. Yes getting enough people together is a pain. But as a gaming experience it’s second to none.
"...And this is where Western Empires becomes like no game... you've ever played" Except for Advanced Civilization which my group played into dust in the 90s :-DDDD Great to see this system get a nice facelift and great review!
Great review, I know in my area theres a group that plays mega civ every couple months. I considered trying to get in on that but maybe not now. I think the mechanics should have been brought more up to date with this update, much like the TI2 to TI3 update.
With regards to the gaming table: A buddy of mine built one by himself for a fraction of the cost to purchase one. He loves it not just for the utility of the table but because it was a passion project.
I like the gaming tables, but the problem is they're always too narrow. The Megan is only like 2.5 feet wide in the play area. That isn't big enough for a lot of games. You've got to give up too much space just to get an inset table. I just bought a $100 rubber backed felt gaming mat thats 3.5 x 8 to fit my entire table. Not as neat-o but definitely can fit any game I want. Plus I find the rail sides uncomfortable over time as they dig into your forearms.
I was a member of a Table board and Role playing club game during my youth and we spend many, many , many hours playing the original version of this game by Avalon Hill, wich was simply called Civilization. Even for us, with a dedicated rented space with lots of tables and being used to complicated and long games, it was still quite a commitment to start a Civilization game. And yes it really can take many hours of game play to finnish, but I would say it was closer to 6-8 hours for players with previous experience that dont require being taught...and I have to say we maybe finished 1 out of 3....but in the end there's always a clear winner, or maybe 2 were very close, so for the rest of the players it just gets tidious or they been already out of the game for hours...and yes the best part for everybody was the laughs you have interacting with other players while changing cards, pleading for ocre or spices while praying not to get a calamitie...fun times Simple mechanics, easy to learn, lots of fun.... this and Diplomacy , with also simple mechanics yet very strategic, and lots of players interaction as well, it was one of our Club favourites for a long time!
This seems like a game I'd love to play because it's long and strategy-based, but my family and friends wouldn't play because it's long and strategy-based, so I end up spending most of my day playing against myself and wondering why none of my friends like me.
I would look for a pool table with a table top that you can sit at. It wouldn't be much more if any more for a smaller slate pool table and then you can have three fuctions, table, game table and pool table. I like pool/billiards though.
I just thought of this, but if every civilization starts with the same number of pop tokens, then a quick way of doing a census is to just stack the tokens you're not using into a stack and compare the heights. The shortest stack has the most people on the board. Saves a bit of time.
Love the candid review of the table. That's what people want to hear and a better ad for Geek & Sons than a fawning endorsement. Suffice to say if I was in the UK I would definitely check out their tables and going on your review probably buy one.
I think the table can make sense if you're in the market for a new table anyway. It costs two, three, four times as much as a similar sized new dining table, but the extra functionality can be worth it. However, it does not make as much sense to get one if it will just replace a perfectly good table you already own. The variety of gaming table that probably isn't worth it are the ones with a big screen/monitor in the middle that can set you back twice as much as the Megan, and I don't know if those even come with the screen.
All the way through the review I thought: "Oh, that sounds a LOT like Civilization, the 1980 board game". And lo and behold: It is just Civilization, the 1980 board game, under a new name.
This looks like a game I would love but that no one else I know would ever play except to repay a life debt.
this, so much this ^^
I am with you. It's hard to own a game you really enjoyed to play but your friends can't find the fun with it.
Exactly my thought. I would love to try it, but I'm never gonna buy it because of that.
So true. I have a game that I love, Letters from Whitechapel, but my family can't stand playing it. I can only guilt them into playing it on my birthday and father's day :-)
12 hours no thanks
“If your map squeezes 50% of your players in just 10% of your board, *use a different map projection!”*
My God I felt that in my soul. Screw trying to make the map to scale, make it to *convenience!*
Phillip Mele aka, Risk board!
Aaaand the same goes for the old edition of Kemet. So annoying.
Make the map ancient, with regions closer to the Eastern Mediterranean larger and more important with Scotland and Norway thin splayed out and teetering on the edge.
@@nerdytom6881 Think it's to compensate for the edge acting like a wall. No enemies beyond the edge, so to increase the number of neighbors you make the cells bigger.
Screw making maps to history, make map for fun playing!
And the game says "It's easy... You do an ACTUAL CENSUS OF EUROPE, EVERY ROUND".
I totally lost it xD
I enjoy Quinn’s visible grimace as he’s coming to terms with reaching the age where you find yourself enjoying that piece of furniture. The 21 year old version of ourselves would hate us. Now I’m off to tend to my succulents.
I mean, a hardwood table is always expensive and can range from 300-2000 easily, so I can understand if someone is considering getting a hardwood table that they might aim for the mid range table that also doubles as a boardgame specialty table.
@Dottoman 共匪 it's a mid-range hardwood table, I don't know if it's a mid-range gaming table.
I'm young. I'm jealous of the table.
I think 21 year old me would look in awe upon and speak with a hushed reverence of someone who was able and willing to afford a specialized gaming table to share with guests.
When I was 19 my boss would pay me and two other members of staff to come to his house on Thursdays (instead of going to work) to play Civilisation (as it was then called). The only way he could get enough players .. who would stay.
holy hell that's a job
Damn, I'd play this every week if I had the chance.
Did you have some fun though? :D
Was it required to let him win?
"Iconoclasm?! You're fired!"
The real tragedy is how this game sounds right up my alley. I've dropped thousands of hours into Paradox grand strategies, I'd gladly spend a full day on something like this.
Unfortunately, even for me, their dream demographic, I won't be buying it. Because even if it's right up my alley, it's not up mine-and-half-a-dozen-or-more-of-my-friends' alley.
Right? I can't even find 3 other people in my board game group willing to play anything from the COIN series with me. I can't even comprehend being able to find 8 other people to play something like this.
Try "Civilization" by Gibson games (not Sid Mieir). It's the game this game HEAVILY "borrows" from but seats a reasonable player count.
It was designed a while ago in the 80's I believe, and the license ended up with Gibson Games. Much more affordable, still a long game, but a far more reasonable player count it's designed around.
Mare Nostrum is the closest modern equivalent and it doesn’t take hours to finish.
Agreed
I know a guy who runs Megacivilization (which this is) with up to about 16 players. Scheduled a month or so in advance.
"Someone's getting cranky, someone's getting hungry, and we can't get off the tour bus because we don't want to admit that we've failed at leisure" hahahaha I LOVE IT
Parents with small kids are okay with it because it's no different than the usual. At least they have another scenery. Other than that.... tradition.
As someone who dabbles in wood working, $1700 (£1000) for a well made solid wood table is very reasonable. A solid walnut table in material alone would run you around $500-800 (not sure what the current UK price on walnut is). The Megan looks to be built from Oak so a bit cheaper but each table is going to be many hours of 10s of skilled laborers work too. The nice thing is well made furniture can out last you, buy once cry once.
I agree for myself, I was very lucky to move into my current place from people who owned proper solid-wood furniture and sold it to me for a token price to save shipping it overseas. This stuff was years old when I got it and after ten years it's still as good as it was, some of it is even so old it has hand-cut screws. I love it, and even if it means the equivalent of a few days' work a year in keeping it nice, that's less than two trips to Ikea or such. But I also understand why most of my friends do not. None of us own homes or could ever realistically buy in, and modern rentals are increasingly unstable and short-term. Some of my friends who are entirely fine tenants have moved multiple times a year simply because the market in my city is a garbage fire. When you're moving that much, furniture becomes a liability.
Ill counter that with a composite tabletop reinforced with steel runners mounted via massive lag bolts to heavy duty steel folding legs. 6 foot by 6 foot banquet table for the wild price of 189 dollars. Very sturdy, will last for manymany years. It doesnt look pretty all on its lonesome but a tablecloth and neoprene mats fix that up quick.
"That's like trying to redistribute wealth by putting a minefield in a bank!"
Put this man in office, he has my vote.
FTTB
That was a truly amazing comparison.
lol just posted the very same thing. That quote it a keeper. Did you come up with it yourself Quinns? :D
And Asia expansion?? Need I recall this foreshadowing quote: "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Asia' - but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line! ' Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"
I'm going to miss black folding table. You were the true head of SUSD.
You’re welcome to mine lol
"... were the true head..." That's just what Pear want's you to think as is puppets the show from the shadows.
@@CampervanCookout I'll take 2!
Hooray! Finally a SU&SD review that doesn't make me want to immediately spend money!
The way to play Western Empire is to trick someone else to spend the money. It's well worth the day to play it. But let someone else pay for it.
How does it feel? 🤣
Rodrigo Mendoza Sánchez I mean, the last news article on the site cost me like 120 bucks so I’m just pumped the review isn’t costing me anything.
SU&SD reviews are comprehensive enough for me that apart from some occasions, I actually feel encouraged to have a more rational and thorough inspection over the game. That always kills the hype, but probably does save me a couple grands?
*me opening Amazon * Oh yeah, totally...
Quinns: "No one wants to listen to me grunt."
Also Quinns: Grunts repeatedly at the camera to close out the video.
As the owner of a Geek Chic gaming table (Bought before they went under, obvs.) I think your review of the gaming table is spot on. It's a great thing if you've got it, and it does bring joy, but nobody should think of them as a must have item. Mine was just a daydream until I got a personal monetary windfall I wasn't expecting and didn't have a particular need for. Now I love it, and I use it every day, as I got the version with the built in drawers that function as laptop desks, but yeah, they're such a niche item and right now with the COVID situation I almost feel dumb having it as I literally CAN'T use it as intended.
Maybe, but if I had to chose between a table or between 20 and 30 new board games, I'd take the games every time.
@@MortlachNL That's the point I suppose:
If someone has enough money to buy whichever games they like (and it may not be a super long wish list for some in the first place) and plenty to spare, then it's maybe worth considering a table like this. Not gonna apply to many people though...
Exactly, it was the point.
It's comparable in price to a quality hardwood dining table. So if you've moved past particle board furniture the price really isn't that high.
The thing is that eventually everyone has to buy a main table/dining table/gaming surface. These typically cost $300-$400 minimum unless they are literally IKEA wood on supports.
Buying a dedicated table that functions as both and can store a game in progress is amazing.
But, yes, it is completely a luxury item.
Also, only amateurs count the tokens on the board in the census phase. Pros memorize the total number of tokens, then count the tokens in their stock each round and deduct that from their total number of tokens and... I'm not making it better, am I?
(But seriously, it's much easier.)
Anders Gabrielsson spot on. It really isn't a big deal or take long with everyone obviously just counting their own tokens. I bought this just to rekindle the great memories I have of playing Advanced Civ - I may never play it, but I don't care 😂
...You are very much not making it better. At all.
Literally scrolled down to comment just this.
Well you are not lying. This minimal calculation is faster once the board is fuller than the pool. Of course it is stupid when the board is managable.
I do something similar during work (logistics).
To know how many units of a certain good are in a truck I could count everything that passed into it. While loading, with no certain order, fast. Logistic is messy.
Or I count what is left and substract it. Which has a way smaller error rate.
My fellow coworkers dont like maths. They think it is to difficult. In reality its faster and easier
I just noticed today how great I am at counting fast, because he said that no one likes the census, but I could probably count all of the tokens on the board within one and a half minutes. The same reason I know the place you'll land on in Monopoly one you roll stops rolling.
"Unlike any game you've ever played." Except for all of those hours and weekends I've spent playing Avalon Hill's Civilization and Advanced Civilization. Especially with the Western Expansion Map. I wish I was in college again so I could get 17 friends together and spend the weekend playing Mega Empires now.
Being a fan of Advanced Civ, I was excited to hear about MegaCiv when it was announced for Essen 2015, and fortunate enough to get hold of a copy at the time, and have run an annual game for friends since then (sadly this year's iteration is still on hold). The updates that they've made to the game are, IMO, great, and improve the flow of the game significantly. I highly recommend you pick up Western/Eastern Empires (they've split the game into the two halves for the reprint, but it's the same material from MegaCiv, which lets you choose between the East or West for "smaller" games of 9 or fewer players.)
@@ub4hn00b also they have a "special building" expansion now...
I was about to write the same comment. Exactly the same mechanism with a different title.
Started frantically looking through the comments to see if anyone else noticed that as well!
They know and acknowledge that, around 15:20. I wonder, if the name change just derivate from the fact, that nowadays many people think Sid Meier rather than Francis Tresham, so they don't confuse it.
Always remember that you can build your own board game table!
I said the same thing on the NPI RUclips channel; I got a table from a neighbor for free that I used in college as a table for my apartment. Once I was ready, I sanded it, stained it, and converted the well area so that I could play games in the recessed area and did it all in a weekend. You don't have to have any knowledge of wood working and does not cost much money; overall I think I spent around $50 to convert it. While it is not high end and is lacking many features that are advertised with other gaming tables, it still serves the purpose that me and my wife intended for it.
@@GeneralNickles "I personally would love to build one, but simply don't have anywhere to put it. I even have all the tools and most of the material needed, but just not the space."
If I could convince everyone to replace the dining room table with a simple gaming table, I would. Especially one with a recessed well. However, that's just not happening. Maybe next house!
@@kereminde Living in a small apartment I don't even have space for a dining room table so... I agree gaming tables are fabulous as I've used my friend's before, but they just aren't feasible for some people.
Not everyone has the skills or time to make their own.
Advanced Civ is a nostalgic University-days favorite of mine. Whenever I meet my old Uni buddies a time or two a year, we inevitably bring up the time Thor got cocky and declared victory, so we spent the next 4 hours trying to beat him back to the stone age.
We never did, but who cares? At what price ageless memories?
Fast forward 25 years and we played an 18p game of Mega Civ on New Year's Day 2019 at the FLGS. 12 hours and 2 meals later, we called it with a stage to go on the AST. Sore backs and cranky dispositions abounded.
Worth it.
Worth It, Indeed. Mental, physical, and emotional stamina are part of the competition in this kind of game :)
1:30 "It's got one of those sunken velvety chambers, as if a dining table had sex with a coffin...." LOL
That game is larger than my entire collection.
Well, it is the entire world
There are even bigger and more ridiculous games like Campaign for North Africa.
Frankly, Advanced Civ is good for its time but has been largely made obsolete by newer designs. Mare Nostrum is the best modern playable candidate that captures much of the same feel.
It's only half the game.
And the full game is still only number, what? ... 7 or 8 in size in my collection.
Get the Designer's Edition of Steve Jackson's Ogre. It's even bigger than this, and is the update of a game that originally came in an 6"x4" ziplock bag.
@@thomasellysonting3554 Nope, there are no games that have the same feel as this. It will still be played when Mare Nostrum is gathering dust in attics...
I absolutely LOVE your table review!! It screams integrity and honesty, and (for me) highlights the genuine pros and cons of a gaming table.
Well, he forgot to mention that gaming tables aren't built as extendable tables. You have to always live with the size that you chose, while I can always extend my "normal" table from 4,25' x 3' length to 7' x 3' length. Useful if I wanted to host a 7p game of Caverna.
I have played a total of 4 games of this game. 3 back in the 90-ies and one last year. Each game have been soo long, and people have been everything between moody and exuberant while playing it. But Every single time have been Epic and memorable. This is an undertaking and I fully understand that just like I will never consider climbing Everest or diving the Mariana Trench with James Cameron there are people who will never even consider playing this game. But if you are interested in larger,longer games and are of a patient mindset, then this is an experience you really shouldn't rob yourself of. I can not express how unique the experience is.
Amen.
I've played many many games of this. I straight up tell new players 'If you can't handle staying focused for 10-16 hours, don't join.'
No one is going to believe me and this is embarrassing to admit, but I was truly peeing while Quinns explained how army management, movement, and combat work... and he was right. Uncanny.
I believe you, this happened to me exactly like you described just now! Felt so incredibly unlikely to time it so well with his seemingly randomly chosen example. Wait. Did Quinns time himself peeing to make that comparison more credible?
I just missed it. But yah 30 seconds after he was like.....I wish I had waited 30 seconds
Hahaha. I had a giggle when he said it because I was just washing my hands.
Holy, I just realized that when he said that I finished peeing. This isn’t helping my sleep deprived brain make sense of the world
A 5 PLAYER (MINIMUM) GAME?!?! WHO HAS THAT MANY NERDY FRIENDS THAT WILL PLAY SOMETHING LONGER THAN 1 HOUR?!
An hour? I can't get them to sit for 30 minutes!
Agreed
I find all our games of Terra Mystica end up with having to tell people "sorry, the game is full now".
Where I live it's challenging getting a 3rd player, 4th most difficult..5+ forget it.. why i focus on, lean towards 2 player games (be it specifically designed for that (say Star Wars Rebellion) and/or multi-player ones that scale down well to 2 players, don't lose much or any without the full player count (say Marvel Legendary).
But I do like epic grand games..this one is definitely tempting (ok ..not gonna buy it) BUT wud if they had a 2 possibly 3 player version playable within 2.5 hrs, eh 3.5 max.
Back in the day, I had enough to regularly play 8 and 9 player games of Advanced Civ.
It's incredibly fascinating to see a modern review of one of the foundational hobby boardgames (fight me!) pitched to an audience who has never heard of it.
Back in my day, all gamers at least knew about Civilization even if they had never played it, and my group played it a lot. I also used to play it with my dad and sisters in the summer - we'd set it up in the morning, play a bit, go for a swim, play a bit, have lunch, play a bit, go for another swim, play a bit, have dinner, play a bit, and maybe finish before the last swim of the day, or we'd keep it set up until the next day. Ah, good memories.
same here; I discovered this game in my early days in the navy. we'd spend every weekend in port down in our training division classroom (on the USS Nimitz) playing with 7-9 players. loads of fun, we played with a lot of optional rules...Imperial Civ, Trade Cities, restricted trading, ...
Right? He hit "And this is where Western Empires becomes like no game you've ever played" around the six minute mark, and I had to raise a finger in protest.
Yeah, it seems weird to be sooo excited by a game from the 1980's. It's my favorite board game of all time, but still.
@@ytgg405 Not weird at all really. I mean, people still get excited about plays written 400 years ago - by that standard this is a very recent game indeed....
The game looks like it would be great as an app. No manual marker-placement, no manual census, no reaching around the table to trade or draw cards... then it may be fun.
Oh, and if you leave or lose, just start another round with different lobby
Woodie Wu There's a DOS version that's abandonware. Advanced Civilization, a board game adaptation. There's also a play-by-e-mail version online of this game.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Make this on PC or iPad and it's probably great.
Imperator Rome is kinda like this for PC
Advanced Civilization...
These gaming table commercial are a little pathetic ...... maybe 5% of people can actually afford them ... u can litterally go into any shop and get there most expensive tables WITH CHAIRS for the same price
"That looks vaguely like Avalon Hill's Civilization."
"That IS Avalon Hill's Civilization."
The-Civilization-Before-Sid-Meyer is definitely the game I've sunk the most time into... And not because I've played it more times than other games. Usually, it's a multi-day deal after a holiday, where the family gathers around and eats leftovers sandwiches.
Watching through the reviews, it seems the cards are changed for the most part - not to mention the map is shifted to the west (used to be a lot more breathing room for Babylon/Assyria,) - and I'm wondering how much the disaster changes have changed game balance. You it is stressed in this review how likely it is that someone should just walk away from the table in a losing situation, but Civilization really did have comeback potential on those disasters.
Like Civil War, where the big civilizations strait GIVE AWAY half their empire to the weaker foe. (I mean, why make those enormous Babylonians any bigger, right?) And in situations like the ever-present Famines, you turn over a certain number of "safe" tokens, and what's more, deal out additional death to others. So a small empire with the right advancements might entirely duck under the minimum for a disaster, and open up holes in their enemies who thought everything was going swimmingly.
It was possible to be put upon for awhile, but as the game is so MASSIVE, it's usually a matter of time before an empire halved by Civil War gets it right back... Or suddenly acquires land on the other side of the Mediterranean.
The big thing that took a long time to ingrain on me with Civilization is that it's not a wargame. Empires ebb and flow and stretch about like colorful amoebas, but the strength of a civilization is in their advancement cards, not their land grabs. It doesn't matter if Crete keeps getting kicked out to its islands, as long as they went into Coinage early to fund some mad city-building, they're going to be in the race for Democracy and Philosophy, despite only ever seeing 5% of the board.
But it's worth it.
I kept seeing Quinn's tattoo and thinking he had pieces stuck to his elbow
Is that tattoo new?
@@2themaxgaming Nope he had it since he stopped playing netrunner iirc. He talked about it in their death of netrunner convention talk. Iirc that was at SHUX 18?
It's a Netrunner link symbol, but you probably already knew that. If you didn't, you should start playing Netrunner right now(via NISEI or finding old FFG copies of it). And run netshield.
I kept seeing it and wondering if it gave him an extra link strength.
In the US, that tattoo is identical to the logo of a major Wall Street financial company. We all know he's a hard core capitalist so it just made sense to me.
This reminded me a lot of the Civilization board game.
Turns out it's a renamed version of 'Mega Civilization', which is indeed a version of the Civilization board game.
I was thinking the same -- I played this a lot in the early/mid 90s. Then I heard "ooh there might be a computer version" and everyone was really excited about it. It was the Sid Meier game of course.
This game is a newer version of Avalon Hill's Civilization/Advanced Civilization. Very few changes from the original.
@@richardclegg8027 Au contraire! There actually WAS a computer version of Avalon Hill's Civ game, along with versions of Kingmaker and Diplomacy! I had all three of them.
@@TheSevenar absolutely there was and I also had it but it was years later. That is why the adaption of the board game civilisation was "advanced civilisation" and "civilisation" was an unrelated game. :)
That table review made me want to find a felt table cover to just put on my dinning table. The being able to pick up cards convinced me
I bought a rubber mat with felt cover for £80 that fits my dining table perfectly. Would rather she’ll out £80 than £1000 to have the benefit of felt for picking up cards
Another alternative is getting a playmat for cardgames like MTG. They are usually individual but you can put a few side to side to cover up the space you need and they are easy to roll up and store. A lot of them are also machine washable.
Any kind of table cloth already makes it much easier to pick up cards. Doesn't necessarily have to be felt.
If you can find it (on ebay is the best bet) suede backed neoprene fabric is fantastic. Feels lovely, slight bounce to it, nice for . We've got about 5 meters of it, going to be using it to make a table topper for out coffee table/dining room table once my woodworking skills are above shambolic. 👍
The other thing you could get is a couple of large (or very large) mouse mats. We have a 450x900mm mat just for playing mystic vale on. It cost £8 iirc. Also have a couple of 1200x600mm mouse mats to completely cover the table. Not as nice, but real cheap and available in big sizes and occasionally various colours. Ours are just black with an overclockers uk logo.
I got a "mouse mat" cut to fit the size of my table. Cost about £40 IIRC. So 1/25th the price of a "gaming table". Yeah.
I was like, hey that looks like Civilization. Then you described movement and I was like, that looks a lot like Civilization. Then you described the Advancement and trading. And I was like...Civ? Then you showed Civilization.
Western/Eastern Empires is the split version of Mega-Civilization, which had a short (3000 units) print run in 2015, and is a refinement and expansion of Advanced Civilization. boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/184424/mega-civilization
I’m 4 minutes into the video and I stopped precisely to look for a comment like this to prove I’m not imagining things 😉
Hey Kug!
I can recommend the Geeknson budget tables, particularly the Bristol model - it's cheaper, but still very sturdy, large surface, and the main thing I love about these tables is that I leave games set up or halfway in play all the time.
For me the option of covering a game in progress with the top part of the table is a killer feature of gaming tables! Imagine playing a weekend of gloomhaven and not having to put everything back at the end of the session. Like you can set up it on Friday night and play 2-3 nights in a row and still have a fully functional dinner table during the day. Sounds just amazing!
We simply take pictures of the board state and put every players' cards in envelopes. Works just fine for us.
This is just a hyped up version of the original Avalon Hill- Civilization game
Jim C it is - but you could probably buy 3 copies of this deluxe version for the same price as tracking down a copy of Advanced Civ!
@@davidnichol9669 except I have it. . . ;)
Jim C yep. Saw that right away. Depressing to see it getting the hype here. 30 years and we’re back at Civ again? Hey, did you know it was Civilisation that killed AH? They took legal action against the PC game and Hasbro, who seemed to own the PC rights, just went out and bought them and pretty much shut them down. Kept the name though. Now that IS depressing 😞.
Yeah exactly what I immediately thought. At least Francis Tresham gets a design credit. I chuckled when Quinn said "like nothing else you've played before".
@@davidarlington1206 Ditto. Except I have the Gibson’s Games version. Which hasn’t been played in ove 25 years, for very good reasons ...
My favourite Mega Civilisation story is when I was playing as the Minoans and doing quite well until a calamity hit and I lost all my cities. I was about ready to throw my toys out the pram and storm off when my neighbour was hit by a civil revolt and had to give half his stuff to the player with the least on the board, me.
The usual play is to flip your people in the border terrorities and be done with it but losing all my cities meant most of my unit tokens were on the board which in turn meant my neighbour had to give me half his cities (can't give me normal units if I don't have enough tokens left) effectively transporting my entire civilization a few thousand kilometers to the west.
civil war is the great equalizer :)
Yes, even though this game is both brilliant and terribly flawed, it's experiences like this that makes it one of the best games of all time.
First off, thank you Quinns for teaching me what the slat of wood is for that I've had with my gaming table for OVER TWO YEARS and not had a clue what it was for...I have joined you in 'egg-on-my-face' town.
Secondly, I would totally agree with what you've said. It sparks absolute joy for me the table, and I love it as a feature piece, but they're definitely a luxury item not a necessity. I happened to luck out and save a bunch of money when buying my house and used that as an excuse to get one and I would say it has been more than worth the money - but the outlay sure as hell isn't for everyone.
you need at least 5 standard sized reference pears for this bad boi.
This is my favorite game of all time (back from its days as Advanced Civilization) but do agree that its not for everyone. With the right group of folks though, its amazing.
likewise
My friends and I played Advanced Civ most weekends when I was in High School. I wish I had that kind of free time (and enough other players w/the same desire to play it) these days.
Its best to think of Advanced Civ and its more recent incarnations as civilization rollplaying games, have fun with what you get dealt and don't worry about winning.
Also if you approach this as a war game you will loose every time to the players that approach this as a negotiating game and see warfare as a means of conflict resolution only to be used when every other option has failed.
@CommandoDude each trade stack has 3 calamities in it, one is Tradeable, one is Non-Tradeable, and in a 9 player game, you add in Minor calamities.
@CommandoDude Don't know about this, but AH ACiv had a maximum of 2 disasters you could get hit by per turn, and they started with the least bad, so you never got hit that bad, and over the course of the game, everyone gets hit a few times, so it generally evens out. A lot of them can benefit behind players (Civil War for example), or impact players with less quite as much (Famine, from memory).
You can play Mega Civ at Gencon if you want the full 18 player experience. I do it each year, and it's a lot of fun.
A couple notes to the video - if you are smaller than a larger country, they basically can't eat you since you move after them, so wherever they invade, you just move out and let their army starve to death. It's basically impossible to war someone to death unless you have Military and can move after them with a larger army. Second, we play with a mercy rule so that calamities can't take you below like 20 unit points, so nobody can get knocked out of the game due to just bad luck. Advanced Civ / Mega Civ is one of the greatest gaming experiences of all time, and I think everyone owes it to themselves to experience it at least once.
"it's like trying to redistribute wealth by putting a minefield...in a bank". That was solid gold right there :D
When Quin plays this game his favorite Set to get is the Bone cards. He loves the Bone. He says "Bigger the better. I love the Big Bone". To which his fellow players say 'We know you do my good sir, we know you do'.
are we talking about "finish in an entire EARTH day" ? just askin......
I'd rather play in 1 JUPITER day...
Let the reader understand.
entire Venus day
I do sometimes feel like theres only two days a year and then it's gone.
Yes, an Earth day. In the Arctic. When the day lasts over a month.
Something worth adding to the table review; buying a felt cloth is really cheap. We went one step further and attached it to a large board to put on our tabletop when we play, so it's always wrinkle-free. It's a real joy to play on felt, and while it can't store a game between sessions like a recessed table, it has the advantage of being much easier to put drinks on. Plus it costs a couple % of the price.
I love this game so much. Francis Tresham is a genius. I am glad that it has a second life with a spiritual successor.
Wartop games in 2032: And now you can in addition to the Americas Expansion pack, combine all 3 games to form: "Ginormous Empires"
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!
for 99.99 you can purchase the Space Force expansion set! (extra tables not included)
Between this table and the crokinole board it just seems like Quinns likes expensive fancy things
Liking expensive fancy things is far from uncommon. It's why those things can be fancy and expensive.
He loves cribbage. NOBODY TELL HIM ABOUT HOW NICE CRIBBAGE BOARDS CAN BE.
"Have you heard of Ancient Hatti with their worship of the Mother-Goddess Kattahha? No, you haven't! And it's not because you are uneducated. It's because they were losers."
This is why I keep coming back to SU&S. I love the effort you guys put in research to make it coalesce with sharp wit and a reliable review. Keep up the good work!
didn't think I would actually enjoy a gaming table review until now
Regarding tables for gaming. I personally use a pool table (cheaper or around a $500 model). I sometimes itch for a gaming table like so, but then I wonder if there is enough of an advantage over the pool table I already have...
Although being able to put a cover back on to preserve a board state like War of the Ring or Star Wars Rebellion is awesome.
The assesories are a wondeful advantage over a pool table... but it is such a serious amount of money over a table that can be used for the actual game of pool/billards as well.
The mirror reveals his bare feet. fortunately, he chose to wear trousers.
Excellent use of using your hand to cover the naughty bits nonchalantly when you lifted the box around minute four.
you have this amazing ability of giving me wings of excitement floating over a game thinking to myself " OH THIS IS AMAZING " only half way through the video I find those wings burning down like Icarus and thinking to myself while crashing" Holy HELL WHAT A CRAP GAME ! " .. even talking about the table I can really feel sincerity of your ups and downs. keep it up. love your videos
Pedantry Corner: If you're going to do a call back to the first Civilization, you really ought to illustrate it with that edition, not the much later Gibson's edition (which was the third version, I think).
I agree. Both that it's a very pedantic response, *and* that it's a correct response. ;)
I concur - one needs to appreciate the correct lineage!
@@youtubuzr Well I worked in a games shop and Francis Tresham delivered them in person.
I love that they kept the part where you can lie about your traded cards from the old civilization game. That was the best and most fun way to end a friendship 😁
I had a friend ruin the game for others by refusing to ever trade. He was too afraid to get calamity cards.
@@vederianl9723 Surely that would just ruin the game for him? Since it would be a lot harder for him to get sets, and people could just ignore him to trade with each other.
One word of warning about gaming tables with leaves (the things you put across to make it a normal table) is that unless your house happens to have exactly the same moisture levels as the workshop it was made in, and the moisture levels don't vary depending on the time of year, you will get expansion or contraction of the leaves. My friend bought one and after a while it became difficult to put the leaves back in the table because they had all expanded slightly.
That was more than one word.
I love MegaCiv (and likely also Western Empires). If anybody wants to try this...your best bet is probably to look online if somebody is running games in your city. They'll be ecstatic to get new players to get that dream 18 player game. Much more likely than you convincing 8 other friends to spend a weekend on this.
Also, it's not really a wargame: love your neighbours, help your neighbours, laugh at those people over on the other side of the board being busy losing by fighting each other. Beat your neighbours by trading better and managing your calamities better.
Also also, this game (meaning the original) is the reason "quick civ game" is a holy grail for so many designers. Personally I think trying to pack the epic experience of Civilization and its successors into a 90-minute game is futile, but I love to see everyone try.
Additional point: The heart of this game is the set collection and trading. Everything else is just to get you to that. (Which isn't to say that buying advances and shuffling tokens around on the map isn't fun, but if you take away the trading all that's left is a hollow shell.)
It's possible in 4 hours. We used to do this with 8 players at the conventions repeatedly.
1: Everyone does simultaneous movement unless there is a possible conflict for space.
2: Everyone has a D10 with their color in front of them. They hand it to the person managing the cards when they are done, and the person verifies their cities. Then places it in front of the tray of cards. This proceeds until you have a line of dice in front of the cards in proper order, with the number showing. Stacks of cards are placed by each die. You ask if they plan to buy gold.
3: Cards are given out along with the die at the end of the round. If done correctly, this takes seconds, as dealing cards is done while players clean up.
Each round aside from trading typically takes 2-3 minutes(!).
4: Trading rounds are 5 minutes via a 2 stage timer app. Usually 3 is all that is needed.
5: Last rule - each person is given a calculator to help them with math and obtaining cards.
8 players, we never ran over the 4 hour slot limit, not in decades of playing.
@@josephoberlander I've played fast games at conventions once or twice (though it was a long time ago), and simultaneous movement is a must, but four hours is still way beyond 90 minutes.
Oh boy, with a game that size on the books, now I can't wait for a review of the campaign for North Africa.
(All jokes aside for april fools or something like that I would love to get that monstrosity reviewed)
An alternative to that table, which i find addresses that drink problem is a table riser. I built one recently, with some mdf/shellac coating//gorilla spray glue/felt that slots right on top of my table, and just sits there like a permanent piece.
It raises the gaming space just a couple inches above the table and hangs over the table just a few inches on the short sides (I'm rocking one of those rectangle foldable tables).
I love it! the felt, the keeping of drinks on the actual table (as any spills will just go underneath the game), and the ability to slide it around the table, keeping homework under while gaming, has been a great quality of life improver!
Definitely a suggestion that I'm prompted to give whenever the talk of a gaming table comes up, as even the Kickstarter that are coming out are about a 10th of the cost.
Wow. That review is shockingly honest. Thanks for the insight!
Thanks for always giving a great cost benefits analysis of everything you review. The transparency is really refreshing and keeps me coming back.
And I thought Twilight Imperium was massive.
Amazing video, you guys make such great content :)
A great video, as always. I do love how you touched on one of our issues with board games, when someone has clearly lost, or has decided that they have lost, and have checked-out of the experience. We've argued that it effects the game, whereas we would continue to make decisions based on getting the best outcome even if we're clearly losing, others just give up and don't care, allowing their neighbours to benefit far greater had the player continued as best as they can.
Then you've got the issues of what kind of players you're with. With us, some will take pity and let these unlucky players ride out the rest of the game without attacking them, whereas others will agressively seek to take advantage and gobble them up. Also, sometimes you even get a player that is losing decide to do something completely alien to how they've played up until that point, and decide to back someone else to try to ensure they win. Personally, I don't like it, as some of these games take a long time to get through, and nothing makes it more invalidated then someone throwing the game in the end stages, even for the player that ends up winning.
the civil war calamity it a great catch up device, the person with the least on the board gets the benefit and takes over some of the victim's lands
That 8 minute long take at the end was most impressive, entertaining, and informative.
We played this as "Civilization" (the board game before the video game) in Grad School .... we'd play through the night into the next afternoon. It was brilliant. I'm glad it's back
And we have to remember this is a guy who enjoys War of the ring and Twilight Imperium 4th ed.and even he thinks this game is long. And at first I thought the out of play tokens were for humor, oh my.
the primary purpose of the out of play tokens is for sectioning off the parts of the board you don't have when playing with less than 9 players. play area has to scale with number of players. You don't use the entire board all the time, the rules would not scale properly. in fact, with 5 players, you only use one of the board halves.
This is like a return to the earliest reviews, in the best possible way! Quinns you are a treasure.
It is good old Civilization on a new map? Ah bit different, Looks interesting
Map is pretty much the same, but they filed off some of the rough edges. For instance, you don't get skunked on trade cards if you happen to go late in AST order, they now have 0-value water cards so at least you can trade...
If you're handy or you have a handy friend, and want a gaming table, i recommend exploring the option of building one!
My father and I put one together for just under $100 CDN and at a half decent quality too. Lots of tutorials online to help, took a few days and a couple curse words but I love it.
I suddenly notice that there is another side of the map that can be easily expanded.....
Built my own game table with all the bells and whistles for only $750-$800. No electronics on mine, but everything else. I actually went with one long piece on top. It’s also my dining room table though so it gets more use as a table than it does for the games. Note: this was only materials. I’m volunteer for a community handyman group so most of the tools I used were borrowed, and I had some experts tweak my design. It only took 4 Saturday’s in total to build. But now I have a gaming table for life. So well worth the investment.
Looks like AH Civilization revisited. Got it. Still play it once a year or so.....
Still have mine too. A friend reckoned it took around 45 minutes x number of players to play.
essentially. better components, updated rules, technologies, and calamities. I think its a better game than AC, but the play experience is the same.
It is ... it's the natural successor to AH Civ/Adv-Civ.
With some improvements to address some of the issues with the old game. It's no longer as easy to go after the leader when you realize who that is.
@@pm71241 I like the 'when you realize who it is'. You just summed up my game strategy. Hide civ credits until the end.
Liked the Zelda treasure chest sound effect when you were talking about a place to put the manual :)
This is Avalon Hill's Civilization! Almost exactly.
basically AC 3rd edition.
YEP, this is kinda of enraging knowing this is one of the best games ever made by the best game company ever, and no credit given. This is Civilization not western empires.
And yet he somehow manages to avoid mentioning the word "Civilization" even once, despite showing the game. It's definitely deliberate, but why?? Is it the publisher's doing?
This is Civilization, the grand-daddy of all later Civ games and probable inspiration for the classic Civilization computer game. Give it some credit. For a journalist, Quinns seems woefully uninterested in a very important piece of board game history. Civilization was basically a euro game 15 years before there were euro games.
Agreed, I used to enjoy this back in the day. But it was a long game.
I must say, the humor + the editing is getting very good :D keep it going, this could get hilarious!
I love that review of the table. "I don't recommend it, but god I love mine so much." For the people with the money, and the want, that looks like one of the best tables I've seen offered, so I agree with him. Looks good, but all gaming tables are pricey
It felt like a very honest review, which is why I've popped down to look at the comments. Sounds like something which is nice to have but not necessarily buy
For censuses, wouldn't it be easier to count what's in front of your play area (not on the board) and whoever has the least goes first? You could even keep them stacks in easy counting piles.
but MATH IS HARD. also, the person with the smallest census moves last.
When this all passes and we can sit around a table once more- will you do a huge long stream a la the lovely and hilarious TE4?
Must I beg SUSD?
Must I?
But seriously- if you could edit it down to the good parts of a day long stream- I think that would be a hit.
indeed. a horrible game to endure for oneself, but letting 18 other people slog through it all, that would be much entertaining :)
Q: On gaming tables that can be used as dining tables: Where DOES the liquid go when a drink (or pitcher) is spilled? I'm trying to envision how it could go anywhere but the felt.
Although I’ve only played its predecessors, this game is hands-down one of my all-time favorites. Yes it takes all day to play,. Yes getting enough people together is a pain. But as a gaming experience it’s second to none.
"...And this is where Western Empires becomes like no game... you've ever played" Except for Advanced Civilization which my group played into dust in the 90s :-DDDD Great to see this system get a nice facelift and great review!
Great review, I know in my area theres a group that plays mega civ every couple months. I considered trying to get in on that but maybe not now. I think the mechanics should have been brought more up to date with this update, much like the TI2 to TI3 update.
With regards to the gaming table:
A buddy of mine built one by himself for a fraction of the cost to purchase one. He loves it not just for the utility of the table but because it was a passion project.
I know Shut up and sit down have turned me into massive board game nerd when I notice the new gaming table within seconds
I like the gaming tables, but the problem is they're always too narrow. The Megan is only like 2.5 feet wide in the play area. That isn't big enough for a lot of games. You've got to give up too much space just to get an inset table. I just bought a $100 rubber backed felt gaming mat thats 3.5 x 8 to fit my entire table. Not as neat-o but definitely can fit any game I want. Plus I find the rail sides uncomfortable over time as they dig into your forearms.
"redistribute wealth by putting landmines in a bank" is a brilliant line
I was a member of a Table board and Role playing club game during my youth and we spend many, many , many hours playing the original version of this game by Avalon Hill, wich was simply called Civilization. Even for us, with a dedicated rented space with lots of tables and being used to complicated and long games, it was still quite a commitment to start a Civilization game. And yes it really can take many hours of game play to finnish, but I would say it was closer to 6-8 hours for players with previous experience that dont require being taught...and I have to say we maybe finished 1 out of 3....but in the end there's always a clear winner, or maybe 2 were very close, so for the rest of the players it just gets tidious or they been already out of the game for hours...and yes the best part for everybody was the laughs you have interacting with other players while changing cards, pleading for ocre or spices while praying not to get a calamitie...fun times
Simple mechanics, easy to learn, lots of fun.... this and Diplomacy , with also simple mechanics yet very strategic, and lots of players interaction as well, it was one of our Club favourites for a long time!
That is a nice table... but i could buy like 3 crokinole boards for that price.
That feeling when you actually work for the census, and feel slightly insulted by "Census!" being something to make people sag in their chairs.
This seems like a game I'd love to play because it's long and strategy-based, but my family and friends wouldn't play because it's long and strategy-based, so I end up spending most of my day playing against myself and wondering why none of my friends like me.
I would look for a pool table with a table top that you can sit at. It wouldn't be much more if any more for a smaller slate pool table and then you can have three fuctions, table, game table and pool table. I like pool/billiards though.
This sounds like the greatest game I will never play.
I just thought of this, but if every civilization starts with the same number of pop tokens, then a quick way of doing a census is to just stack the tokens you're not using into a stack and compare the heights. The shortest stack has the most people on the board. Saves a bit of time.
Love the candid review of the table. That's what people want to hear and a better ad for Geek & Sons than a fawning endorsement. Suffice to say if I was in the UK I would definitely check out their tables and going on your review probably buy one.
Great promotional quote for that table.
"As if a dining table had sex with a coffin!"
This game feels like something you should play with other game tables around so the players leaving can go play other games.
I think the table can make sense if you're in the market for a new table anyway. It costs two, three, four times as much as a similar sized new dining table, but the extra functionality can be worth it.
However, it does not make as much sense to get one if it will just replace a perfectly good table you already own.
The variety of gaming table that probably isn't worth it are the ones with a big screen/monitor in the middle that can set you back twice as much as the Megan, and I don't know if those even come with the screen.
900 quid for a useful piece of furniture that you will actually use is not so bad and I am saying this from Eastern Europe :)
All the way through the review I thought: "Oh, that sounds a LOT like Civilization, the 1980 board game". And lo and behold: It is just Civilization, the 1980 board game, under a new name.
Exactly, apart from some new resources that were not present in the original game