He's right, Li-ion batteries perform the same down to nearly 10% compared to LiPo ones. Also this car is reasonably efficient on autobahn, I like this a lot :3
Clearly it all depends how much energy your taking out from the battery or atleast it should have.. This going into limpmode with only 340hp at 45ish % is well..really really bad..
@@BRY4NFPS This makes me curious of the i50 and how that will behave with more hp and an extra engine feeding from the same battery.. cooling is crucial for the ev's when being pushed littlebit more than normal.. this was a lap done in the wet and with 190vmax.. Should not be anywhere near limpmode at that SOC.. 🙂🧐
Since everybody knows everything please explain how charging with 200kw is possible for 10 to 15 minutes, but moving with less average power with wet cold air forced into the radiator at speed is not. I have a feeling it has nothing to do with the battery. And would look at the motor instead.
Coming from Belgrade to the Ring was a long trip! Also, interesting to see how much the battery depletes with one lap. Pozdrav braći s balkana, krasan auto!
I just started getting into cars. There is so many brands, models, and trim levels. Misha going it's a I40 or I4 40 brings a lot of peace of mind, because most of the time I have no idea what I'm looking at or what to compare it to.
We have the I4M50 at home and you would except it to be crazy with its 540 horse power but it drives so smoothly, would almost forget that you’re driving. Hope to see it riding a lap soon!
I've driven several electric cars due to my job and I have to admit that the i4 is really the best of all of them. Great car by BMW! BTW, the Vmax of the M50 is 229km/h :)
@@VaunShizwell, you can beef up the cooling for the powertrain in such a car, that’s not the issue (see Ionic 5N, Taycan) but you get a very power hungry car then. That’s less a daily and an Autobahn cruiser. I own an M50 and I love it to bits. And for all Autobahn related purposes it’s amazing, but it’s not build to be a track car, as it limits power output after half a lap on the Nordschleife also (350 PS or so?). BMW needs (and in fact all brands) to properly make the cooling such that it might be more power hungry during track use, yet can handle the 1000 amps coming from the battery repeatedly, but can also quiet down and lay low to allow for efficient Highway cruising. I know the M50 is equipped with a 10kW heat pump for heating and cooling the power train, seems it might need to be beefier with multiple valves to be run at different power levels as well more air inlets that can also be closed to maximise aerodynamic efficiency when not needed. There still is some way to go, but if this is the future, cars won’t be boring at all. Every time I drive mine, it puts a smile on my face, especially knowing that the running costs are a fraction of what an equivalent ICE would be.
The difference between DSC on petrol BMWs and DSC on electric BMWs (and on every car with Electronic Stability and Traction Control) is in how it actually works. The EVs can use electronic torque vectoring to decide how much torque every wheel is getting realtime, instead of overheating the brakes as it does on gas powered cars. The actual power limit is probably due to powertrain overheating, as you said at the end of the video, and it may have overheated apart from the actual work it had to do, maybe the DSC put some more stress on the whole powertrain so it needed more cooling than usual
SO much hate in the comments already 😃Its a nice car, but people expect exciting lap like its a 900kg civic on a dry day. And good to see neighbours from my city on the channel (besides btgAlex ofc).
@@AndyOG2000 "Hate" for the car... And yes, i agree with you, we should all use words more carefully, too many people are using words and phrases out of place like i just did.
nice try to them but I think they should've replicated Formula E sounds for more "normal" models (so that it can be turned off in comfort mode) and make real Formula E sounds from straight cut gears in the drivetrain for sport models.
While it is nice they have not ruined the traditional cockpit because of electric powertrain I really dislike the sound. It just cycles the same thing over the speed range, it should be dependant either of motor RPM or applied power and NON CYCLING so you can actually base the value of the sound frequency!
I that there was a Peugeot RCZ-R at apex at the beginning of the vid. Hopefully Misha got a chance to drive it, so that i can see what improvements I could do to mine. Great vid as always
sorry, that felt so boring, hypnotic. It's the lack of sound. I never realized until now how significant a role sound plays in the enjoyment of driving a car, and ICE's provide such a nice sound.
More EVs! Too bad the battery wasn't charged fully and weather was bad but very interesting lap. Nice contrast to the screaming combustion cars. Very excited for the future
@@VaunShizit has more avg hp than 400 hp cars. As you can see it maxed alout 190kmh at.the hole at begining. If it wasent limited and had full charge it would hit 200kmh.
No, self limit because power is a function of the velocity squared. If it went up to 255kph, which is the typical limit of most BMWs, the vehicle would need 1.71 times as much power to achieve 255 instead of 195kph. Batteries would overheat and/or would be dead too quickly.
@@DriverBob14 yeah I noticed after they said it ahaha... you gotta give credit though to BMW for really protecting the battery, I don t and won t own electric cars but it seems like bmw is beeing more restrictive with this dangerous batteries
@@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος Might be, Honestly I don't know enough specifically about the BMW to really say what the actual weakest link is but in general as of January 2024 the limiting factor is usually the battery system and not the total power but how much it can deliver before it becomes overheated. I wouldn't be surprised if they chose the motor as a function of this selected power limit. I mean what good is a motor that could do 300kph mechanically when the electrical systems would fry at 200kph? Good engineering will harmonize the components based on a targeted performance level and we're moving away from absolute top speeds in favor of quicker acceleration 0-200.
Misha, I love what you’re doing but you really need to go through the cars before going out. For 2024 season, why not ask the owners to put ALL loose stuff in a box/container that you put into Apex office until you’re back? There shouldn’t be anything loose in a car when on track, it’s at best annoying, at worst dangerous. But you know this of course. All the best.
Maybe the best EV I've seen so far, at least it feels and sounds like something. I find the quietness of EVs way too creepy and would never buy one. Also dangerous, with all the smartphone zombies on the streets these days, those soundless EVs will only make accidents even worse. Plus I don't really like the car telling me how much of the power I can use. Combustion cars for the most part will just keep running the same even if they run hot but these things will just go "nah I'll run at 75% power now because I feel like it". I rather convert my car for E85 use to make it more environmental friendly (planed for next year) instead of buying something like this. Also waiting for Toyota to make that hydrogen combustion engine car or something, that's something I'd buy.
The day we have access to electrical energy as densely packed and convenient to refill as petrol is the day electric cars actually become viable. Until then they're basically AMAZING motors weighed down by heavy useless battery tech that makes them better only in a limited scope with perfect settings.
You know what is convenient? Being able to charge up your car overnight with the three seconds it takes to plug into an outlet at home, and wake up with a full tank. It's actually super nice!
@@swecreations You proved my point about being better in a limited scope. If you never go further than a 100km radius from your house, it is without a doubt more convenient. If you actually have to do some distance, especially in harsh weather they become inconvenient.
@@DriverBob14 Never go more than *200km* I would say, they have much more range than that. Either way I don't find spending 20 minutes chilling in my car watching videos or going to eat lunch to be much worse than having to stand out freezing in the cold having to fill up gas in my car. If I'm out on roadtrips I usually want a break after 3-4 hours of driving. Just to prove that point, we have both a Polestar 2 EV and a BMW 330e plug-in hybrid. Both are almost brand-new, 60k€ cars. Guess which one we're choosing for our 1000km one-way roadtrips? The EV. We usually find that the charging stops come very naturally, at points we would've wanted a break regardless. And the EV is just nicer to drive than the ICE car.
@@swecreations Leisure travel is not the same as needing to get point A to point B with purpose and Europe is VERY different to North America. Take Canada for example. Just going Montreal to Toronto is ~550km depending on exactly where you start and end. Most ICE cars will easily do it on one full tank in 4-5 hours straight. The best Polestar 2 (Long range, single motor) might just get you there on one charge in perfect conditions however throw in cold weather and snow around this time of the year and you could expect to at least add 30 minutes to an hour to make the trip with a charge to top off. Then there's a charging network problem here. Unless you're traveling in specific corridors, good luck finding fast chargers that aren't out of the way. I'm not going to argue your last point because that is an opinion, not a fact. My opinion is that ALL electric vehicles that sell for under $100,000 are overweight and boring to drive compared to an ICE vehicle of the same price. I have hope long term for electric vehicles, but anyone claiming EVs are equal to or better than equivalent ICE vehicles are just lying to themselves.
@@DriverBob14 Lying to themselves? So me never wanting to go back to ICE cars again is me lying to myself? Also a Polestar making a 550km trip would need about 15-20 minutes of charging for that trip in nordic winter conditions. We've driven ours longer than that in winter, still don't feel limited in the slightest, but it's driving characteristics are unmatched on the road. When it comes to things like instant power, something you value a lot on the road, and road stability, there's nothing that comes close. Looking at the US/Canada on Chargefinder it doesn't look bad at all. For the people going to northern Canada, sure, but majority of people are never going there and there will be chargers there in a few short years anyways.
Overheated in 3 mins! So you are quick on 250Hp, even lower. BMW should take care about this! Bmws are cars with racing dna. This is not good for a reputation.
electric cars gotta come a long way before they’re competitive to both road and racecars. weighs too much, 1% every 10-20 seconds gone when flooring it.
He's right, Li-ion batteries perform the same down to nearly 10% compared to LiPo ones. Also this car is reasonably efficient on autobahn, I like this a lot :3
Clearly it all depends how much energy your taking out from the battery or atleast it should have.. This going into limpmode with only 340hp at 45ish % is well..really really bad..
@@sub7up.I mean I’ve never had an issue like this with my i4 e40 even with low battery percentage I’m still able to full send but you are right
@@sub7up. It seems to me it's because battery was running hot.
@@BRY4NFPS This makes me curious of the i50 and how that will behave with more hp and an extra engine feeding from the same battery.. cooling is crucial for the ev's when being pushed littlebit more than normal.. this was a lap done in the wet and with 190vmax.. Should not be anywhere near limpmode at that SOC.. 🙂🧐
Since everybody knows everything please explain how charging with 200kw is possible for 10 to 15 minutes, but moving with less average power with wet cold air forced into the radiator at speed is not.
I have a feeling it has nothing to do with the battery. And would look at the motor instead.
Coming from Belgrade to the Ring was a long trip! Also, interesting to see how much the battery depletes with one lap. Pozdrav braći s balkana, krasan auto!
bravo braco
congrats brothers
Acceleration in this BMW sounds exactly like 1972 ZiU soviet trolleybus. Reminds me of my commuting to school and uni...=))))))))
It is composed by Hans Zimmer, car itself has no sound.
In a video it sounds like straight cut gears, it's completely different in the actual car.
I just started getting into cars. There is so many brands, models, and trim levels. Misha going it's a I40 or I4 40 brings a lot of peace of mind, because most of the time I have no idea what I'm looking at or what to compare it to.
It's getting out of hand
Keep it up, but really its quite simple - don’t bother with non-Alfa Romeo’s. 😊
We have the I4M50 at home and you would except it to be crazy with its 540 horse power but it drives so smoothly, would almost forget that you’re driving. Hope to see it riding a lap soon!
Li-Po is amazing, electric RC cars use it for a couple of years already
2.2 tons.
😂👍 e trash 🤮
Actually 2125kg. He was wrong.
@@Smith_Tech_70 No. Hes not wrong. ruclips.net/video/XTuevL6HD08/видео.html
Thats nice that they added a monorail to the track for transporting
Love the wide variety of cars you lap... Pretty cool car, the laps are making me like BMW's more and more.
what a nice guy
RCZ on left, yeeeeeeee
Why it's the dumbest car ever has a billion things wrong with it 😂
I've driven several electric cars due to my job and I have to admit that the i4 is really the best of all of them. Great car by BMW! BTW, the Vmax of the M50 is 229km/h :)
can do 3 laps, fast enough, RWD, nice handling, quite cool sound (which I would turn off in daily driving). Seems fun enough for a daily!
Can do 3 laps ? The battery was overheating half way through 1 lap lmfao
@@VaunShizwell, you can beef up the cooling for the powertrain in such a car, that’s not the issue (see Ionic 5N, Taycan) but you get a very power hungry car then. That’s less a daily and an Autobahn cruiser. I own an M50 and I love it to bits. And for all Autobahn related purposes it’s amazing, but it’s not build to be a track car, as it limits power output after half a lap on the Nordschleife also (350 PS or so?). BMW needs (and in fact all brands) to properly make the cooling such that it might be more power hungry during track use, yet can handle the 1000 amps coming from the battery repeatedly, but can also quiet down and lay low to allow for efficient Highway cruising. I know the M50 is equipped with a 10kW heat pump for heating and cooling the power train, seems it might need to be beefier with multiple valves to be run at different power levels as well more air inlets that can also be closed to maximise aerodynamic efficiency when not needed.
There still is some way to go, but if this is the future, cars won’t be boring at all. Every time I drive mine, it puts a smile on my face, especially knowing that the running costs are a fraction of what an equivalent ICE would be.
The difference between DSC on petrol BMWs and DSC on electric BMWs (and on every car with Electronic Stability and Traction Control) is in how it actually works.
The EVs can use electronic torque vectoring to decide how much torque every wheel is getting realtime, instead of overheating the brakes as it does on gas powered cars.
The actual power limit is probably due to powertrain overheating, as you said at the end of the video, and it may have overheated apart from the actual work it had to do, maybe the DSC put some more stress on the whole powertrain so it needed more cooling than usual
Was that Peugeot RCZ R next to BMW? Is there a video coming? Would be amazing to see that car, 270hp in 1.6 engine from 10 years ago
Very interesting lap. Not the fastest and definitely heavy, but nice dynamics and pretty true to the brand.
SO much hate in the comments already 😃Its a nice car, but people expect exciting lap like its a 900kg civic on a dry day. And good to see neighbours from my city on the channel (besides btgAlex ofc).
Cope
@@VaunShiz This channel is not for kids, do your parents know you are watching RUclips?
Interesting what you associate with HATE.
@@AndyOG2000 "Hate" for the car... And yes, i agree with you, we should all use words more carefully, too many people are using words and phrases out of place like i just did.
Heavy duracell
So good car! Love it in blue colour and brown/black leather interior 😍
But the weight 😮
Misha thanks you for amazing lap I enjoy in every minut with you and your driving skills.
Pozdrav iz Beograda 😁😁
The battery : im fast as fuck boiiiii😅
Cool! Love my i4 e40 ❤
Oh man the sound- it really does sound like a spaceship good job to BMW for making this car have some emotion.
The emotion being anger
nice try to them but I think they should've replicated Formula E sounds for more "normal" models (so that it can be turned off in comfort mode) and make real Formula E sounds from straight cut gears in the drivetrain for sport models.
capped at 190 kph, battery overheats after half a lap. ill pass.
yeah and it also looks super boring
sounds like trash, looks like trash. i don't know hy anyone would buy this
Never misses an opportunity to make some wholesome cevapi jokes with the Serbs lol
Živeli!
Looks ok, despite the grillls, that an electric car doesn’t need. But as useful as it might be on the city, it seems really boring on the ring.
I thought so too
"How many times can I V max in a lap", then try to break that record...
I4m50 is dual motor 545hp, this is rwd 340hp
3 minutes of full power, thats all you get when its a cold and rainy day... wowwwwww Such progress electric cars.
2.2tn too heavy
Every electric car is
Should've have better cooling considering it's borrowing design from 4 series
While it is nice they have not ruined the traditional cockpit because of electric powertrain I really dislike the sound. It just cycles the same thing over the speed range, it should be dependant either of motor RPM or applied power and NON CYCLING so you can actually base the value of the sound frequency!
There are many different sound options, this one is the most ridiculous
Not race ready, but could be a nice commuter car.
I hope you drive that RCZ R sometimes Misha
Probably breaks down half way...
Enjoy your day man😮😮 this car okay
Give this man a Taycan Turbo S
Thing literally was counting down the battery 😂
The fake noise would have to be turned off
I that there was a Peugeot RCZ-R at apex at the beginning of the vid. Hopefully Misha got a chance to drive it, so that i can see what improvements I could do to mine. Great vid as always
Nice car 😍
Sell it's the worst Peugeot ever pure crap
that sound it makes made me feel weird and nauseous for some reason wtf
Hey, are u going to re-stock the signature hoodies ? I would love to get one !
sorry, that felt so boring, hypnotic. It's the lack of sound. I never realized until now how significant a role sound plays in the enjoyment of driving a car, and ICE's provide such a nice sound.
What they lack in speed and instant torque you get back in sound and emotions... 😅
You should try xpeng p7 if you get the chance.
At least they didn't use a fake V8 sound in the cabin...
Good video
I love the sound
Burek ❤
Sa sirom xD
@@frog382 DA!!!!
bro literally looks like Freddie Mercury
Мише осталось проехать по петле на электросамокате!
After losing 10 % of SOC the car starts throttling... Freude am Fahren
Elon musk on i4
The most fun was dragging the time slider from left to right and seeing the battery percentage deplete 🔋🪫
2.1 tonnes, not 2.2. Battery is 83.9kw gross, 80.7kw available for use. 👍
the speed limiter on this car is a joke
More EVs! Too bad the battery wasn't charged fully and weather was bad but very interesting lap. Nice contrast to the screaming combustion cars.
Very excited for the future
Not a really big fan of electric cars, but what a rocketship!
I don't think rocketships are that slow , not even 400hp in a 2.2 ton car that was at 70% power most of the lap 🤣
@@VaunShizit has more avg hp than 400 hp cars. As you can see it maxed alout 190kmh at.the hole at begining. If it wasent limited and had full charge it would hit 200kmh.
@@VaunShizthat is same acceleration as wrx from last video while having 700kg more.
Now I hate electric cars even more...
Greta Thurdburg would be proud 😀
Hardly a person prone to pride. She is way smarter than most adults can comprehend... Thats why you all hate her 😀
Misha, do you still have your Polestar 2 performance 476 ch?
Yes he does
10 relaxed minutes.
And you weren't overtaken once!
There was almost no one on track lol
I have the same care. Its a nice cruiser but it is not a sports car.
Respect za Beograd kod Mishe,bravoooo🤙🏆⭐️👑
13miles 25% battery
Mooi.
A good advertisement to not get an EV.
195 kmh is slow af if you ask me, was it cause of the rain?
No, self limit because power is a function of the velocity squared. If it went up to 255kph, which is the typical limit of most BMWs, the vehicle would need 1.71 times as much power to achieve 255 instead of 195kph. Batteries would overheat and/or would be dead too quickly.
@@DriverBob14 yeah I noticed after they said it ahaha... you gotta give credit though to BMW for really protecting the battery, I don t and won t own electric cars but it seems like bmw is beeing more restrictive with this dangerous batteries
@@DriverBob14it has enough power to go much higher than 190 kmh. Its limited by the maximum speed (rpm) of the motor. Thats it
@@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος Might be, Honestly I don't know enough specifically about the BMW to really say what the actual weakest link is but in general as of January 2024 the limiting factor is usually the battery system and not the total power but how much it can deliver before it becomes overheated. I wouldn't be surprised if they chose the motor as a function of this selected power limit.
I mean what good is a motor that could do 300kph mechanically when the electrical systems would fry at 200kph? Good engineering will harmonize the components based on a targeted performance level and we're moving away from absolute top speeds in favor of quicker acceleration 0-200.
The rain is god crying that you are driving a plug in car!
Misha, I love what you’re doing but you really need to go through the cars before going out. For 2024 season, why not ask the owners to put ALL loose stuff in a box/container that you put into Apex office until you’re back? There shouldn’t be anything loose in a car when on track, it’s at best annoying, at worst dangerous. But you know this of course. All the best.
Funny on the first meters, but that sound is a bit annoying 😂
It's wild how fast the battery went down even though the car was almost never using full power as well with regenerative braking. 🤦♂️
Maybe the best EV I've seen so far, at least it feels and sounds like something.
I find the quietness of EVs way too creepy and would never buy one. Also dangerous, with all the smartphone zombies on the streets these days, those soundless EVs will only make accidents even worse.
Plus I don't really like the car telling me how much of the power I can use. Combustion cars for the most part will just keep running the same even if they run hot but these things will just go "nah I'll run at 75% power now because I feel like it".
I rather convert my car for E85 use to make it more environmental friendly (planed for next year) instead of buying something like this. Also waiting for Toyota to make that hydrogen combustion engine car or something, that's something I'd buy.
All newer BMWs will pull power whenever they start to overheat, not just EV.
Finde diese E-Sounds meeh. Lieber gar nichts als diese komischen Space Shuttle Sounds
The day we have access to electrical energy as densely packed and convenient to refill as petrol is the day electric cars actually become viable. Until then they're basically AMAZING motors weighed down by heavy useless battery tech that makes them better only in a limited scope with perfect settings.
You know what is convenient? Being able to charge up your car overnight with the three seconds it takes to plug into an outlet at home, and wake up with a full tank. It's actually super nice!
@@swecreations You proved my point about being better in a limited scope. If you never go further than a 100km radius from your house, it is without a doubt more convenient. If you actually have to do some distance, especially in harsh weather they become inconvenient.
@@DriverBob14 Never go more than *200km* I would say, they have much more range than that. Either way I don't find spending 20 minutes chilling in my car watching videos or going to eat lunch to be much worse than having to stand out freezing in the cold having to fill up gas in my car. If I'm out on roadtrips I usually want a break after 3-4 hours of driving.
Just to prove that point, we have both a Polestar 2 EV and a BMW 330e plug-in hybrid. Both are almost brand-new, 60k€ cars. Guess which one we're choosing for our 1000km one-way roadtrips? The EV. We usually find that the charging stops come very naturally, at points we would've wanted a break regardless. And the EV is just nicer to drive than the ICE car.
@@swecreations Leisure travel is not the same as needing to get point A to point B with purpose and Europe is VERY different to North America.
Take Canada for example. Just going Montreal to Toronto is ~550km depending on exactly where you start and end. Most ICE cars will easily do it on one full tank in 4-5 hours straight. The best Polestar 2 (Long range, single motor) might just get you there on one charge in perfect conditions however throw in cold weather and snow around this time of the year and you could expect to at least add 30 minutes to an hour to make the trip with a charge to top off.
Then there's a charging network problem here. Unless you're traveling in specific corridors, good luck finding fast chargers that aren't out of the way.
I'm not going to argue your last point because that is an opinion, not a fact. My opinion is that ALL electric vehicles that sell for under $100,000 are overweight and boring to drive compared to an ICE vehicle of the same price.
I have hope long term for electric vehicles, but anyone claiming EVs are equal to or better than equivalent ICE vehicles are just lying to themselves.
@@DriverBob14 Lying to themselves? So me never wanting to go back to ICE cars again is me lying to myself? Also a Polestar making a 550km trip would need about 15-20 minutes of charging for that trip in nordic winter conditions. We've driven ours longer than that in winter, still don't feel limited in the slightest, but it's driving characteristics are unmatched on the road. When it comes to things like instant power, something you value a lot on the road, and road stability, there's nothing that comes close.
Looking at the US/Canada on Chargefinder it doesn't look bad at all. For the people going to northern Canada, sure, but majority of people are never going there and there will be chargers there in a few short years anyways.
test tesla model 3 performance
das Murmeltier
Das Auto klingt wie ein Trolleybus.😐
Genau, wir haben sie auch hier in Arnheim Niederlande 😅
Den würde ich nicht für umsonst fahren 😂was ne Gurke
😲 Is it realistic that the i4 lost 25% of its charge in one lap? So in this dynamics it has a max range of 80km?
Most EV owners do not realize that riding with 50% soc is much less power than 100%
Not this car.
ahhhh. I am still searching for my first video comment. Never mind. Second is also good. Nice lap Misha.
Happy now?
yes! You are the man!
To slow for 340cv.
Привет из СССР это видео напоминает езду на троллейбусе. Оно еще хуже, чем езда на дизельной 7 серии.
Overheated in 3 mins! So you are quick on 250Hp, even lower. BMW should take care about this! Bmws are cars with racing dna. This is not good for a reputation.
How are you misha
oof, edrive
Hmm it looks like they got inspiration from Shepard-Risset continuous glissandos for the sound (link from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Risset )
depressing artificial sounds
We really are going backwards in the world of cars, wtf is that thing???
electric cars gotta come a long way before they’re competitive to both road and racecars. weighs too much, 1% every 10-20 seconds gone when flooring it.
I dont get why npne of the drifters dont build an EV, they make a lot of sense for that
saai hok dus
the worst car ever on this channel
Electric car 👎 ice car 🫶
This car is a joke?
Nice guy, but this lap is quite boring😢 Because of the rain and the low battery state.
Trash car if you are looking for any sporty driving.
this is sooooo dull
people complain about 1050hp Plaid's consumtion and this BMW i4 with Prius's performance lost 2 % to get to the bridge lol 😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😂😂
sounds quite boring, lol
And looks horrible 2.
ajvar i cevapi racing
Boring car...sorry EV guys...
Slow crap lap, I wouldn't spend that money on a car thats that slow and heavy