Can We Trust China? Talk #3: The Individual - Smaller Circle of Trust
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- Опубликовано: 19 июл 2022
- Third talks between Pascal Coppens and Alberto Antinucci about Pascal's new book, "Can We Trust China?"
Pascal and Alberto have a long experience in doing business in China and have witnessed the changes within the country over the past 3 decades.
The topic of this talk will be "The Individual - Smaller Circle of Trust"
Join the conversation and prepare your questions to receive the answers live.
The event will be broadcast on RUclips, Facebook, and LinkedIn. 
Развлечения
Thanks Pascal and Alberto. Your are building bridges while others are burning bridges. You two deserve lots of respect and appreciation.
Our pleasure!
Pascal and Alberto, you are the real China experts! What an excellent China talk!
Thanks Jane!
Pascal is the best..
Thanks...
Chinese people willing to sacrifice a little of their privacy for their safety. There's are CCTV camera everywhere in China but because of that, they can walk freely in the middle of the night without worrying about getting kidnapped or something
Cyrus Janssen made a RUclips video you might want to check out too: ruclips.net/video/3KvS9iBH4k0/видео.html
Agree
I like you guys very much to talk about your real mind. Good job ❤both of you are professional on what your research . Can you talk this more please, thank you. I from Canada.
48:00
The points shared on lying and guilt/punishment are very thought-provoking and very well introduced. I have had similar thoughts but never quite managed to put a finger on them that way. To enrich the discussion, here are some of my ponderings on the matter:
I've been thinking too about how "justice" in the western sense is often defined in terms of "guilt/punishment". Perhaps in relation to the concept of "original sin" and "the wages of sin is death". Thus the roots for justice are expressed in that worldview of retributive pain, suffering in exchange for wrongdoing. In contrast, the term ”义“ (yi) which, while often can be just translated "justice" as well, has very different nuances and roots. Of course this isn't necessary if one is just doing a straightforward language translation, but to entertain the philosophically and ethically curious, to quote Meng Zi (Mencius), ”羞恶之心，义也。“ Here, 义 ("justice") is defined as such: "(To have the sense of) shame of (doing) evil in one's heart".
In other words, while one worldview has justice viewed in terms of "punishment" as a counter-force to "sin", the other worldview has justice viewed in terms of "shame" as a counter-force to "evil". It's quite interesting to think how, this leads to very different, difference of worldviews -- even if both parties speak in the same language fluently, say English, yet the unspoken psychological awareness may be very different.
In the Confucianist worldview thus, shame has a far greater role in the moral code than in the Western system, because it is more directly tied to morality and virtue. Certainly in English, expressions like, "what shameless behaviour" does demonstrate that shamelessness is a concept existent in the West, and it can be used to identify unbecoming behaviour. However, without realizing how deeply connected to virtue it is in the Eastern sense is what may lead some westerners to not realize why concepts like say, lying to save face, or lying to preserve respect, are far more delicately navigated, than just merely approaching interactions in terms of "truth vs lies". Thus, if you were to say, to tell the truth, but sacrifice a respect-deserving individual's honour this may actually be more immoral that a westerner may realize. The more moral thing would have been to lie, to preserve the respect-deserving individual's honour instead -- while also concocting, if needs be additional material to reach the intended social outcome.
Anecdotally, the account of MengZi refusing the invitation from a Duke is a helpful example to substantiate. In short, MengZi intended to "discipline" the duke, which was done by not acceding to his request. He would not tell the Duke off. He was intentionally respectful and polite. So this was done by "lying" -- by giving a completely untrue reason as to why he would not accede to the request. This is an example, if one can understand what's going on in terms of the interaction, of the type of delicate navigation that often takes place in Chinese culture. When done well, one would realize that the "lies" are less significant in the matter, but rather, the practical outcome of the combination of honour preservation and coherence in how the episode transpires: He (1) gave respect while (2) disciplining the duke. Whether he spoke bluntly truthfully or not, is less relevant than these two outcomes.
Once again, apply nuance and discernment to the understanding. This is not to say the society sees "lying" as acceptable or as acceptable behaviour. Rather it is, "lying is bad in general yes, but here, there was something more important at stake that lying was the best solution, which led to the most respectable outcome".
Thanks for long response. Will try and read later.
Thank you Guys.
Both US and China building a global surveillance and security state with tech.
To add to the commentaries on Confucianism and philosophical foundations that influence an entire societal culture, for Confucius, he did say the most important thing was "order". Of course I must draw to some people's attention that is "order" is not necessarily diametric opposite of "freedom". Some people may think of "order" equating to control, and thus may terrifyingly implicate tyrannically-governed societies. To Confucius, the order meant there would be no chaos. If anyone knows much about Chinese history, the most tragic periods of human life (within the Chinese psyche) occurred when "all under heaven" was thrown into chaos、mayhem、 great disarray. To just name three: The Spring-Autumn period. The Three Kingdoms period. The Warlords period. In contrast perhaps, as I get the impression from western discourse and channels, the European historical experience was entirely different -- amidst the constant competition and chaos, but where no one of them could rule the others -- was when European societies grew to be at their strongest.
The societal historical experiences were different, and thus the meanings for each civilization that emerged were different.
Virtue, defined in terms of harmony, etiquette and order. Structure, hierarchy, each living being knowing their place in the greater world. It is not about being a cog in a rigid, static, drab machine, forced into roles of blind-obedience. Rather a very dynamic, very conscious, constant adaption to an ever-fluid social structure. People grow old. Apprentices can become more successful than their masters. Students can be overtake their teachers. A person that had been fathered (mothered) will in turn father (mother) another. That person who nursed the child when she could not feed herself nor walk, would in turn need to be nursed by that child when he can no longer feed himself nor walk. Thus, if each individual had to know how recognize and play their role accordingly (which meant obligations; the receiving and giving of respect and honour) society would weave together as an intricately ordered -- harmonious whole.
In parallel, Aristotle did too say, "(hu)man is by nature a political animal". He expounded the idea that societies are made up of smaller modules, of which the smallest would be the individual, as a member of the greater family, and thus a greater clan, thus a greater city. Great minds do think alike. In parallel maybe, to Pascal's concentric circles, and in parallel to the foundations laid out in the the 大学 (The Great Learning), it begins with the individual's inner self, their own mind, as the most introverted, intrinsic building block. This awareness concentrically grows to cover the wider society, wider state, wider world.
A profound contrast, which may sound heretical to a western stereotype of morality, is that in the Confucianist tradition, "freedom" is not viewed as the most ultimate, un-compromisable sought-afters of human life. Rather, in contrast, one should consider the virtue of self-regulation. One must know how to restrain and limit theirself. Heretical by modern neo-liberal perspectives, perhaps -- where anything concept linked to restrain or control would equate to being an evil thing. It's not so much a worldview of "No one can stop me from doing anything I aspire to. What harm are others doing to me? How can I stop them?", rather, it is one of "Be aware of what you need to stop yourself from doing, to avoid destruction of the larger, delicate, fragile, fabric of nature -- of which society is a part of nature, and the self, being a part of society, is thus also a part of nature." Notice, that the sense of self is not absent in this thinking. The self is also accounted for, not neglected, but the expectations (entitlements?) to the self are different.
Not expecting that concept to be palatable, but sharing for those who are open enough to consider that humans can view the world differently, in a different set of cohesive principles. I have tremendous respect for Western thinking as well. Not to criticize either at this point, but demonstrate more instances of different worldviews, each coherent in their own right.
Have you come across a Chinese saying "ultimately we want to eat, drink, enjoy and be happy"?
It portraits Chinese love and desire for dispite how difficult the day or times, Chinese wants Peaceful Coexistence, enjoying life and happiness 😊.
This can also apply for all other countries and citizens?
The main root of Chinese culture has been established by Confucius, which is pretty much a social philosophy. In contrast to the west, natural philosophy in Chinese culture has been developed poorly and the voice can be heard scarcely even today. While scientific reductionism is powerful and effective in explaining the external material world, it is almost powerless when dealing with internal social phenomena. This is because human beings are fundamentally social animals. The civilization process is also a socialization process. once the social nature has been flattened and reduced to the individual level. Humans will be lost because, in the eyes of many western individuals, the collective social principles are counter-intuitive. Confucius's philosophy is a holistic rather than a reductionistic social philosophy. For example, The main idea of Confucianism is to stress the importance of the hierarchical structure of society as a whole rather than the rights of individuals.
Actually it's Taoism (Daoism) that strongly influenced China and Chinese. Taoist book of moral (Tao De Jing) is the book that Chinese traditional philosophy are based on. Even "Chun Kok" the Chinese name of China came from Taoist book of moral.
@@Anonymous------ Confucianism is more social and Daoism more natural (or a-social) in thought. Both are root inspirations for China's collective societal philosophy and culture.
I too explained about western reductionism in my Qubit mindset. ruclips.net/video/7-sOYbkXbUQ/видео.html
@@PascalCoppens
Confucianism came from Taoism. Confucius considered Lao Tze (founder of Taosim and writer of Tao De Jing, the book of moral) as his mentor. The Ying Yang symbol is the most important traditional Chinese symbol, it came from Taoism. The meaning of China's country name in Chinese is based on Taoism.
@@PascalCoppens
Taoism is both about science and human moral principles, but Confucianism is mostly about human moral principles. Confucius never dig deep into the Taism's science part, he studied Tao De Jing (book of moral) very well though.
Many Chinese welcome Westerners to our lands as visitors. However, many Westerners are increasingly regarding Chinese in their lands as unwelcome.
So, Shenzhou, the vlogs I sent you might explain why so many peoples around the world do not trust China:
ruclips.net/video/QVQtZiqJf9U/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/GbCfmVtenlE/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/TWhATAmoWgA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/DYmFWRLM3Bw/видео.html
I am beginning to think you are a CCP AI Bot.
Racism is the root cause.
Westerners look at the skin color of a person. Chinese look at the heart (mind) of a person.
The racial discrimination against Asians is indeed increasing worry and reality.
Chinese people in China treat all foreigners as special guests regardless of their skin color and nationality, but not the same can be said about how Chinese being treated in other countries, not even in Hong Kong, a city which was once ruled by a British racist colonial regime.
👏🏻👏🏻👍
Both of you display an understanding of Chinese respect for others, whilst I believe many in the collective West are also like-minded, a select few chooses to differ for their own reasons.
Can you trust China?
It's gonna be where your mindset is.
You go on about Chinese 3000 year history the CCP only came into existence in July 1921 everything changed from then on and not for the better I may add, China has turned into a totalitarian state where individuals freedom's are ruthlessly controlled by an overbearing state . Just look at Hong Kong where two systems one state was meant to happen for 50 years after the hand over in 1997 now gone, and thousands of Hong Kongers are fleeing for the freedoms enjoyed in the UK . look at Taiwan who is a democratic country and enjoys the same individual freedom's enjoyed in the West, China is so envious of TSMC the leading semiconductor company in the world after spending Billions upon Billions subsidising SMIC who are still 10 years behind Taiwan just goes to show what can be achieved in a democracy. The reaction of China to a legitimate visit from Nancy Pelosi South East Asian trip was typical of a totalitarian state missiles fired into the sea it has amounted to a total blockade of Taiwan. You can say all you want to defend China while enjoying the freedom afforded to you from Belgium. If you love China so much why not pitch your tent in China but I suspect you won't because you enjoy Western freedom so much while at the same time espousing the CCP narrative , bet if the roles were reversed you wouldn't last 5 minutes in China espousing the values of democracy , you would suffer the same fate as the brave students did at Tiananmen square or the Uyghurs in their so called reeducation compounds or the Falun Gong or other prisoners of conscious who's internal organs are offered for sale , it reminds me of the Nazi practices during the second world war . In fact China is not a communist country at all just like the 1930s Germany it has morphed into a fascist state .
Sometimes I really can't believe how brainwashed people from the west are. One and the same oligarchy has ruled for decades. A quasi-democratic system, and the illusion of elections, the illusion of choice. Societies where there is absolutely no media freedom, where people like Julian Assange are in prisons.
No matter how stupid, no matter how false and evil, every narrative of the establishment will be accepted instantly by all western "media", and by the uneducated, lethargic, egocentric, dumbed down population of the western countries.
And so we come to a situation where the colonial robbers, who robbed 1/3 of the planet for centuries, are suddenly the judges of virtue. Those who ethnically cleansed entire continents, committed countless genocides, will now teach us lessons about human rights.