Well Done! Appreciate the time you invested in this video. Been in the hobby ten years and this is the best video on the subject. No theory-craft here, just numbers. I coulda used this info five years ago. Love to see you do a video series on a complete PID toolbox tune for 5 inch quads.
So what if there are no new Blheli32 ESCs? After all, those who already have such ESCs will not throw them away. These ESCs will continue to work. This video is for those who have such ESCs and want to program them better for the future. Thx Chris for great video. As always: great job!
I would love to see a follow up with 7'' and large drones. I want to build the Foxeer Aura Split 13" and I know that size is just a different problem. Keep doing you!
You didn't mention the effect of PWM frequency on gyro noise I've found that 24khz is more likely to cause gyro noise than higher frequencies. Of course, that depends on the ESC, FC, and motor combination. So it's not always about top end performance; sometimes one has to be more pragmatic to get a quad working properly. People need do a motor throttle sweep in BF Configurator to see if there is a point where the gyro freaks out using 24khz PWM. Then try 36khz or 48Khz PWM to see if the noise goes away. And let's not forget how PWM frequency affects the O3 Air Unit.
Yeah, on my 3inch 24khz pwm was introducing jello to my 03. Changing to 48 fixed that. On my 5inch freestyle rigs, I run 24/24 and 03 footage is butter smooth 🤷🏻
@Chris Rosser I removed the propeller and got a log of rotating it to full throttle, and checked it with Betaflight Blackbox Explorer.The ESC is running Bluejay, and the vibration was the least at 96Khz.
This is why my recommendation has always been 48khz fixed timing. Based on my tests and reinforced by Chris's tests here, there are very minimal losses at 48khz and the noise reduction is definitely worth it. Above 48khz the losses compound and the noise reduction is not as significant and it's no longer worth it for 5" motors.
Your settings can’t have been that bad I’ve seen no changes in efficiency going from 23 degrees to 31 degree and 24 to 48khz. I found having a tune and esc in sync matters a lot
@@ironoidfpv I do agree, more minor tuning and changing things like props made a bigger difference, still great tohave this knowledge crystal clear in the mind!
Good stuff. This matches pretty much exactly with the results I got years ago testing these, and gives more support for the recommendations we've been using for defaults for a long time. 23 degrees timing, fixed 48khz pwm, rampup 30% is the answer for 3-5". As far as 48khz vs 24khz goes. The 48khz results here are not significantly different from the 24khz and there is a significantly lower noise floor in the gyro in most cases with 48khz, so I think that recommendation still stands. I would be curious to see if the issues with higher PWM frequencies on that specific 3" motor could be solved by increasing rampup power. 48khz at least would be beneficial. Typically the smaller the motor and the higher the RPMs the more it will benefit from the higher PWM rates in terms of efficiency and noise. My whoops are all on 96khz for example. This has a lot to do with the fact that the deadtime multiplier for those tiny ESCs is like 5, compared to 30 or more on higher current ESCs. Remember, the PWM performance at high frequencies is directly tied to the dead-time multiplier.
Just want to comment about rampup power, that setting also affects the motor at 0 RPM, it sets how much power is dumped into a single winding during the 'startup' phase of the motor before it starts commutating. Using the 100kgmm^2 flywheel from a dead stop is a good test for this.
It's great to discuss these things individually but an overall quads performance is based on the sum of all the factors. I've had builds that had severe desync issues on Betaflight and there was no ESC/FC settings that improved performance. Then I switched to a KISS Ultra FC and the desyncs stop completely. The only difference being the FC and firmware. Also, thrust linearization used to have some effect on performance and was recommended if you using 48khz and up. Is that still a factor?
If changing flight controller software fixed your issue it was likely it wasn't a true desync, but likely something in the flight controller causing a dropout on the signal side. I've seen that happen more than once when the issue was actually a tuning problem causing runaway prevention to kick in etc. The thrust linearization recommendation is actually relevant to the decreased braking forces he shows here in his tests. It's important to note that the braking force losses are relative to the dead time multiplier necessary for each ESC, so will be dramatically variable depending on the ESC in question. Some ESCs with low dead time will not see nearly the degree of braking losses as ESCs with longer dead times. Typically the higher current rates the FETs the longer the dead time, and the worse the braking losses at higher PWM frequency. The more the braking losses the higher the thrust linear value is needed to compensate.
@QuadMcFlyFlies with the flight controller in question, the motor desyncs were occurring on default settings as well as after being fully tuned. After reviewing Blackbox logs, it was extremely similar to the desyncs I've seen in the past, where a single motor would go full power even if the stick command was not calling for it. Then, after switching to a KISS Ultra V2 FCFC, I pushed the tune pretty far and still did not have a single desync. The point is that just discussing ESC settings without including other factors like PID tune and firmware is just a strange approach, and it would be better to see a guide that ties the two together.
@@MurdersFPV I agree with you for the most part. I disagree with his recommendation for 24khz for this reason, as in many cases 24khz is unflyable due to gyro noise issues and 48khz almost always ends up tuning better. The research side of what the settings do is still solid here from Chris, but some context is definitely missing. I've tuned literally hundreds of quads and built and flown personally well over a hundred in the last 10 years, which goes into my recommendations, and I only recommend lower PWM frequencies for 7" and higher rigs as the dynamics change there a bit. Brian (PIDtoolbox Guy) will tell you the same things, I've worked closely with him to review a lot of testing especially for the larger motors. That's where the practical experience comes in to interpret the results in context. Would be nice to get some of that in the video.
ESC drive mechanics are roughly the same regardless of the software. The same settings should apply in all firmware pretty much equally given the same motor and prop combination.
@@QuadMcFlyFlies as to my knowledge and my experience on AM32, your statement isnt completely right... as long as i know AM32 drives motors harder compared to BLheli, so PIDs has to run lower. Then everyone has different builds with different build quality and everything changes from quad to quad
@@gabruzz I've done extensive testing across all firmwares, going even back to the original BLheli 8-bit stuff before BLheli_S, and I've been testing AM32 since it was first released. I've worked closely with the devs from BLHeli and AM32 and I haven't seen any evidence for what you mentioned. Actually all the 32-bit software tends to run a bit lower at the top end than the 8-bit options, but that's not really relevant to what I am saying specifically here. The point is that the differences in these settings are roughly the same proportionally between all the firmwares and have the same basic impact regardless of the ESCs software. They're settings relative to the drive mechanics of brushless motor systems and the basics of that are the same regardless. The recommendations I mentioned above have been the same across several changes in firmware, BLheli_S/BlueJay and BLHeli32 for example. Obviously the tunes will need adjustment, but the settings recommendations are the same. As I mentioned elsewhere I do disagree with Chris on the recommendation for 24khz for 5" because of noise and tuning issues, but again that holds across all the firmwares I've tested.
I see the PWM frequency vs acceleration was tested using 16deg timing any reason to believe the results would be any different for alternative timing settings? Also which dshot 300/600/1000 was used for these tests and could that setting also affect the timing or PWM testing results? I assume not for both questions but I’m curious! Hopefully results translate to AM32 as well!
Great video always love these but is it true that if you are running the 03 airunit are you suppose to 48low and 48 high fixed I was told you are better with both at 48k fixed
Another great reference, Chris, thank you!! Can the 3” data be safely used on a 2.5”? Or does it all depend? After my 5” quads, I have more 2.5” than any other size.
So what is the point going beyond 24khz other than the O3 issues some are having with smaller builds? The lesser braking ability is often what causes poor propwash handling.
At 5" 48khz is 100% still the best recommendation. The braking losses are not that significant and the noise floor takes a serious hit at 24khz. Compare your gyro noise levels and you'll see you have to dramatically increase filtering at 24khz in the large majority of cases. You have to increase it enough that in most cases any handling improvement at 24khz is overwhelmed by the increased filter latency. I've consistently gotten the best flight performance at 48khz and very little filtering. This is why my default recommendation has always been and continues to be 48khz fixed timing.
Discontinued BLHeli.. Can i still tune and use betaflight esc settings/speedybee esc configurator/tune? Ie.. are all my features going to continue to work for all my spare blheli32s and bls's im staring at in boxes? Can i keep using blheli escs with future bf updates? Thanks for keeping me informed.
I can't follow along. You reccomend motor timing = 24deg for 3" and then test pwm freq. with 16deg. and recommend 24/24khz pwm. Wouldn't you want to test the pwm with the recommended 24deg motor timing instead of 16deg?
It's useful for smaller motors and lower current ESCs that have faster switching times and lower dead time values. 96khz and 128khz is super useful for tinywhoops for example.
@@maryjane136 Yeah for sure, total marketing on the bigger ESCs other than the fact it likely means they have a faster processor, which is still useful for overhead even at the lower PWM frequencies. Higher speed MCUs tend to handle bidirectional dshot a bit more consistently in my experience.
y wonder for Brother Hobby Tornado T7 4215 or T-Motor MN5008 Antigravity Type 6-12S UAV Motor KV340 on 8s allot of desyncs at 70% throttle 50% ramp up , pwm or 16 or 24khz, 16 timing demag low or very high no chance to working , is better on tornado 85 % throttle , i try non damped mode on no brake but still desyncs esc is iFlight Blitz E80 80A 2-8S BLHeli_32.
you need much lower ramp up and much higher timing. infact your rampup and timing is exactly the worst combinatin for causing desyncs. try 25% rampup and 25deg timing. also i would not reccomend going lower than 24khz pwm. 16k causes lots of issues. 24k and good electrical filtering (lots of caps) should do. also never use non damped mode. it disables active breaking which is awful for the pid controller.
I used BL HELI 32 for updating my Tinyhawk Freestyle 3 ,and my ESC’s no longer work. The drone just flips over upon arming. I Guess the drone board is just useless now. Any reason why this happened. Maybe I should have used Blujay instead.
its either motor direction, motor mapping, fc orientation, or props. 100% user error. its the easiest thing in the world so solve if you just look it up.
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Ironic. Posted right before bl32 announced that they would be done working on sortware and allowing new ESC to be built.
Where I can find this info?
@@cristian_c look at the mads tech video
The configuration still works and you still can take advantage of all this valuable information for as long as your ESCs IA alive
perfect timing
Next video how to flash am32 maybe
R.I.P BLheli........
Well Done! Appreciate the time you invested in this video. Been in the hobby ten years and this is the best video on the subject. No theory-craft here, just numbers. I coulda used this info five years ago. Love to see you do a video series on a complete PID toolbox tune for 5 inch quads.
Chris, what's your thoughts on the rumor going round today about blheli_32 project being shut down?
So what if there are no new Blheli32 ESCs? After all, those who already have such ESCs will not throw them away. These ESCs will continue to work. This video is for those who have such ESCs and want to program them better for the future. Thx Chris for great video. As always: great job!
I would love to see a follow up with 7'' and large drones. I want to build the Foxeer Aura Split 13" and I know that size is just a different problem.
Keep doing you!
Thanks Chris. The future is AM32, right? Maybe a video will be nice?
You didn't mention the effect of PWM frequency on gyro noise I've found that 24khz is more likely to cause gyro noise than higher frequencies. Of course, that depends on the ESC, FC, and motor combination.
So it's not always about top end performance; sometimes one has to be more pragmatic to get a quad working properly. People need do a motor throttle sweep in BF Configurator to see if there is a point where the gyro freaks out using 24khz PWM. Then try 36khz or 48Khz PWM to see if the noise goes away.
And let's not forget how PWM frequency affects the O3 Air Unit.
Yeah, on my 3inch 24khz pwm was introducing jello to my 03. Changing to 48 fixed that. On my 5inch freestyle rigs, I run 24/24 and 03 footage is butter smooth 🤷🏻
@Chris Rosser
I removed the propeller and got a log of rotating it to full throttle, and checked it with Betaflight Blackbox Explorer.The ESC is running Bluejay, and the vibration was the least at 96Khz.
This is why my recommendation has always been 48khz fixed timing. Based on my tests and reinforced by Chris's tests here, there are very minimal losses at 48khz and the noise reduction is definitely worth it. Above 48khz the losses compound and the noise reduction is not as significant and it's no longer worth it for 5" motors.
Thanks so much for this Chris! Was just planning to adjust my ESC settings for my racing season following some effeciency woes :) perfect timing
Your settings can’t have been that bad I’ve seen no changes in efficiency going from 23 degrees to 31 degree and 24 to 48khz. I found having a tune and esc in sync matters a lot
@@ironoidfpv I do agree, more minor tuning and changing things like props made a bigger difference, still great tohave this knowledge crystal clear in the mind!
Now that BLHeli has gone tits up, can you do something on AM32? what other options are there for us now
Very well done as always! With blheli 32 crystallized on the last release will be very useful till will not be anymore blheli 32 escs alive 😊
Good stuff. This matches pretty much exactly with the results I got years ago testing these, and gives more support for the recommendations we've been using for defaults for a long time. 23 degrees timing, fixed 48khz pwm, rampup 30% is the answer for 3-5". As far as 48khz vs 24khz goes. The 48khz results here are not significantly different from the 24khz and there is a significantly lower noise floor in the gyro in most cases with 48khz, so I think that recommendation still stands. I would be curious to see if the issues with higher PWM frequencies on that specific 3" motor could be solved by increasing rampup power. 48khz at least would be beneficial. Typically the smaller the motor and the higher the RPMs the more it will benefit from the higher PWM rates in terms of efficiency and noise. My whoops are all on 96khz for example. This has a lot to do with the fact that the deadtime multiplier for those tiny ESCs is like 5, compared to 30 or more on higher current ESCs. Remember, the PWM performance at high frequencies is directly tied to the dead-time multiplier.
Just want to comment about rampup power, that setting also affects the motor at 0 RPM, it sets how much power is dumped into a single winding during the 'startup' phase of the motor before it starts commutating. Using the 100kgmm^2 flywheel from a dead stop is a good test for this.
It's great to discuss these things individually but an overall quads performance is based on the sum of all the factors. I've had builds that had severe desync issues on Betaflight and there was no ESC/FC settings that improved performance. Then I switched to a KISS Ultra FC and the desyncs stop completely. The only difference being the FC and firmware.
Also, thrust linearization used to have some effect on performance and was recommended if you using 48khz and up. Is that still a factor?
If changing flight controller software fixed your issue it was likely it wasn't a true desync, but likely something in the flight controller causing a dropout on the signal side. I've seen that happen more than once when the issue was actually a tuning problem causing runaway prevention to kick in etc.
The thrust linearization recommendation is actually relevant to the decreased braking forces he shows here in his tests. It's important to note that the braking force losses are relative to the dead time multiplier necessary for each ESC, so will be dramatically variable depending on the ESC in question. Some ESCs with low dead time will not see nearly the degree of braking losses as ESCs with longer dead times. Typically the higher current rates the FETs the longer the dead time, and the worse the braking losses at higher PWM frequency. The more the braking losses the higher the thrust linear value is needed to compensate.
@QuadMcFlyFlies with the flight controller in question, the motor desyncs were occurring on default settings as well as after being fully tuned. After reviewing Blackbox logs, it was extremely similar to the desyncs I've seen in the past, where a single motor would go full power even if the stick command was not calling for it. Then, after switching to a KISS Ultra V2 FCFC, I pushed the tune pretty far and still did not have a single desync. The point is that just discussing ESC settings without including other factors like PID tune and firmware is just a strange approach, and it would be better to see a guide that ties the two together.
@@MurdersFPV I agree with you for the most part. I disagree with his recommendation for 24khz for this reason, as in many cases 24khz is unflyable due to gyro noise issues and 48khz almost always ends up tuning better. The research side of what the settings do is still solid here from Chris, but some context is definitely missing. I've tuned literally hundreds of quads and built and flown personally well over a hundred in the last 10 years, which goes into my recommendations, and I only recommend lower PWM frequencies for 7" and higher rigs as the dynamics change there a bit. Brian (PIDtoolbox Guy) will tell you the same things, I've worked closely with him to review a lot of testing especially for the larger motors. That's where the practical experience comes in to interpret the results in context. Would be nice to get some of that in the video.
@QuadMcFlyFlies This has been my experience as well.
It would be interesting to see such testing for 7, 8, and 10-inch motors.
Okay what about if your running an 03 air unit on a 3.5 inch drone with 1804 - 3500kv motor should the pwm 24 or 48?
What about AM32 and bluejay?
and whoop motors, haha!
ESC drive mechanics are roughly the same regardless of the software. The same settings should apply in all firmware pretty much equally given the same motor and prop combination.
@@QuadMcFlyFlies as to my knowledge and my experience on AM32, your statement isnt completely right... as long as i know AM32 drives motors harder compared to BLheli, so PIDs has to run lower. Then everyone has different builds with different build quality and everything changes from quad to quad
@@gabruzz I've done extensive testing across all firmwares, going even back to the original BLheli 8-bit stuff before BLheli_S, and I've been testing AM32 since it was first released. I've worked closely with the devs from BLHeli and AM32 and I haven't seen any evidence for what you mentioned. Actually all the 32-bit software tends to run a bit lower at the top end than the 8-bit options, but that's not really relevant to what I am saying specifically here. The point is that the differences in these settings are roughly the same proportionally between all the firmwares and have the same basic impact regardless of the ESCs software. They're settings relative to the drive mechanics of brushless motor systems and the basics of that are the same regardless. The recommendations I mentioned above have been the same across several changes in firmware, BLheli_S/BlueJay and BLHeli32 for example. Obviously the tunes will need adjustment, but the settings recommendations are the same. As I mentioned elsewhere I do disagree with Chris on the recommendation for 24khz for 5" because of noise and tuning issues, but again that holds across all the firmwares I've tested.
Seems more relevant than 5 days ago doesn’t it
I see the PWM frequency vs acceleration was tested using 16deg timing any reason to believe the results would be any different for alternative timing settings? Also which dshot 300/600/1000 was used for these tests and could that setting also affect the timing or PWM testing results? I assume not for both questions but I’m curious! Hopefully results translate to AM32 as well!
Thanks for the information. what can you say about the "Sine modulation mode"? Should i use it?
Would be really cool to know how the picture changes when we look at 2inch and smaller motors
is 23deg timing okay on a 1804 3500 kv motor with blheli-32 esc.
Will you still be doing a video on bigger 7" and 8" motors?
WOW great Video i learn much things, thanks a lot 👏
Amazing! just the video ive been waiting for. Thank you sir!
Great video always love these but is it true that if you are running the 03 airunit are you suppose to 48low and 48 high fixed I was told you are better with both at 48k fixed
Very interesting the same video about AM32
Another great reference, Chris, thank you!! Can the 3” data be safely used on a 2.5”? Or does it all depend? After my 5” quads, I have more 2.5” than any other size.
So what is the point going beyond 24khz other than the O3 issues some are having with smaller builds? The lesser braking ability is often what causes poor propwash handling.
At 5" 48khz is 100% still the best recommendation. The braking losses are not that significant and the noise floor takes a serious hit at 24khz. Compare your gyro noise levels and you'll see you have to dramatically increase filtering at 24khz in the large majority of cases. You have to increase it enough that in most cases any handling improvement at 24khz is overwhelmed by the increased filter latency. I've consistently gotten the best flight performance at 48khz and very little filtering. This is why my default recommendation has always been and continues to be 48khz fixed timing.
Discontinued BLHeli..
Can i still tune and use betaflight esc settings/speedybee esc configurator/tune? Ie.. are all my features going to continue to work for all my spare blheli32s and bls's im staring at in boxes? Can i keep using blheli escs with future bf updates? Thanks for keeping me informed.
yes
BLHELI is a history now...
Thank Chris, I ❤ your videos
Damn I wanted to see charts for the various byRPM options.
Very helpful thank you, shame I can't update my ESC's anymore haha
Its the 7" that interest me, running 2806.5
Unfortunate timing with BL helli shutting down today... Good video regardless
Thanks for this, great info!
It's all component dependent. You can't lump everything together because it has the same esc protocol.
... and they have just announced that it is done....
Nevertheless existing ESC's can still get tuned, so I am not worried.
I can't follow along. You reccomend motor timing = 24deg for 3" and then test pwm freq. with 16deg. and recommend 24/24khz pwm. Wouldn't you want to test the pwm with the recommended 24deg motor timing instead of 16deg?
So is running byrpm the best option?
Excellent timing!
Pun intended😂
But have you ever tuned your ESC's......ON WEED???
A PWM frequency like 96 or 128kHz is just a good marketing feature, regardless if BLHeli (R.I.P.) or AM32?
It's useful for smaller motors and lower current ESCs that have faster switching times and lower dead time values. 96khz and 128khz is super useful for tinywhoops for example.
@@QuadMcFlyFlies Agree, but I meant the ESC boards with 30.5mm hole mounting and not the AIO boards for Tinywhoops.
@@maryjane136 Yeah for sure, total marketing on the bigger ESCs other than the fact it likely means they have a faster processor, which is still useful for overhead even at the lower PWM frequencies. Higher speed MCUs tend to handle bidirectional dshot a bit more consistently in my experience.
biggest down side is that we lose the (BY RPM) option :(
But how does it feeeel Chris!
Please do Bluejay! Thanks!
y wonder for Brother Hobby Tornado T7 4215 or T-Motor MN5008 Antigravity Type 6-12S UAV Motor KV340 on 8s allot of desyncs at 70% throttle 50% ramp up , pwm or 16 or 24khz, 16 timing demag low or very high no chance to working , is better on tornado 85 % throttle , i try non damped mode on no brake but still desyncs esc is iFlight Blitz E80 80A 2-8S BLHeli_32.
you need much lower ramp up and much higher timing. infact your rampup and timing is exactly the worst combinatin for causing desyncs. try 25% rampup and 25deg timing. also i would not reccomend going lower than 24khz pwm. 16k causes lots of issues. 24k and good electrical filtering (lots of caps) should do. also never use non damped mode. it disables active breaking which is awful for the pid controller.
Yeah this video did not got old well.
and for 7inch 1300kv ?
They pulled the rug on this one Chris. 😥
I used BL HELI 32 for updating my Tinyhawk Freestyle 3 ,and my ESC’s no longer work. The drone just flips over upon arming. I Guess the drone board is just useless now. Any reason why this happened. Maybe I should have used Blujay instead.
Flash back to the original version
its either motor direction, motor mapping, fc orientation, or props. 100% user error. its the easiest thing in the world so solve if you just look it up.
AM32 setting test?🤔
BLHeli just announced they will no more be available for us drone users due to geopolitical reason 😢😢😢
This aged well.
All this work fir them to get rid of behli 32 today for future drones
I know, such a shame. Time to get on with the testing of AM32!
Heey Chris, warm greets & a happy weekend from a grateful patreon
This aged well :(
But;; bl32 perfecly downed to update today;;;;;;
Very nice but unfortunately sort of obsolete now 😞
You made a video on blheli32 and the next day they close the company down.
perfect timing after blheli32 is no more :-(
It still exists
interesting...
Well, this can be deleted now..
good old news, kiss ultra boys tested and recommended using 21 timing 48khz locked a couple of years back
Too little too late 😅😂
Didn’t last long 😂😂
Blheli is dead 💀
This didn’t age well 🤣
I bought your 8s 1570kv 2207 its ace, can you do a 7inch 8s motor with spilt bell, about 1000kv i recon and cheers buddy nice work!
this didnt age well. wrong settings anyway
Which settings can improve?