In remembrance: Captain Wallace Junior Majure II, 44 Flight Attendant Janice Adele King, 35 Nancy S. Beckwith, 41 William J. Beckwith, 48 Frank C. Forshew, 50 Dean E. Gray, 41 Cyrus O. Holder, 46 Joseph Glenn Irvin, 61 Marilyn J. Irvin, 59 Steven Paul Leopold Victor Martin Nancy Mays Thoral J. Mitchell, 60 Virginia Marie Ginny Rini Mitchell, 55 Thomas Charles Mikuta, 34 Michael William Mould, 22 Jennifer Paloci David Lee Porcelli, 40 Karen Ann Porcelli, 35 John Stanko, 72 Sally C. Steward, 48 Douglas Radcliff-Unstead, 52 Andrés Davison Roland Mayer Rolf Herzinger Eckard Saeftal Kenya Kazehara, 36 And to the survivors: First Officer John Rachuba, 30 Flight Attendant Debra Taylor Yassar Abdelsamed William Blair, 50 James Block, 51 Joan Forshew Kathryn Gray Richard Lee Lawson, 45 Bob Main Connie Merrill Thomas Merrill, 40 Denis Miller Yasser Morsi, 22 Sidney Nudelman Frederick Paulenich Michael Richards, 24 Clay Richter Helen Ross, 54 Ronald Ross, 57 Ann Sacknitz, 32 Bart Simon, 43 Robert Spear, 24 Kendra St. Charles, 39 Laura Trego, 23
What's with the misleading thumbnail? Your own recreation doesn't show the aircraft rolling inverted. The Mayday episode on this incident doesn't show the aircraft rolling inverted, though the Wikipedia article reports that a piece of the aircraft became inverted after impact. It wasn't near houses. It occurred at night in snow, not day with clear sky.
Unlike on X I regret there is no Report and Block function on RUclips. This channel is editorially shit. And worse, if you leave a comment like this to help users, and then Hide it to avoid polluting your timeline, then RUclips erases your comments!! Come on Google. You can be better than that. 👎
I love your channel and greatly appreciate the work you put into it. Please consider honoring the souls that didn't make it with a bit more mention in the ending🙏🌹
I didn't like the way the video stopped. As someone who did not remember the details, my first thought was, "Did this plane fall in the water, or rise and dive straight down? I feel I better go read the news story and get the rest of the story.
Issues like this could be easily solved by placing the de-icing teams near the runways rather than at the terminal. This would prevent ice from accumulating over a long taxi.
@@larryp6671 In the 1990's, Pittsburgh Internatinal installed permanent deicing stations or "car washes" . Every plane now goes through it right before entering the runway for takeoff. I know, I worked for USAir in PIT at the time.
@@perniciouspete4986 I've gotta admit, I've been more confused about the events in this video than I ever have been in TFC videos. I don't know what's going on with them, but hopefully it's better next vid.
Not mentioned in the Wikipedia article either. The Wiki did mention that the NTSB noted that he rotated at a lower speed than standard. I'm familiar with that model, possibly even that specific aircraft, as I worked for some time at Piedmont Airlines, which was absorbed by US Air shortly after I left and they flew F28's. I'm surprised as well that the wings suffered so greatly from ice contamination, as the Dutch most certainly are more than slightly familiar with ice and icing! Otherwise, they were a rather reliable and stable aircraft.
@no-one-in-particular, You're absolutely hitting the nail -> 0:14 La Guardia Airport, NY - 0:16 preparing a Fokker 28 for a passenger service to La Guardia Airport ?? Is this a sightseeing round trip ?? Are we the only ones who noticed ???
Type 1 was almost useless if any snow was falling. Type 4 was a huge improvement, offering almost a full hour of protection in most circumstances after application. Thanks for the great video.
Hold on 11:24 "Neither of them took any action to check the condition of the wing leading edge and upper surface" but you show several instances of the pilots checking the wings, even shortly before take-off 5:49 "As the pilots approach the number one spot for takeoff, they look back at the wings several times. Near the time of takeoff, the copilot says *looks good to me, black strip is clear*" Is the implication here that the NTSB doesn't believe the pilots *actually* checked?
No, though with how it's worded in the video, I can definitely see how it would be confusing. The NTSB believed the pilots should have entered the cabin to check the state of the wings. As in, simply checking from the cockpit was not thorough enough given the severity of the icing potential. The video states the cabin part, but doesn't elaborate any further.
The pilots didnt physically walk around the plane and check for ice, which is normal procedure, but USAir didnt require this so it wasnt performed. However they DID turn on a wing light and look out the window, which is not a true and accurate inspection when snow is already falling and its dark.
You mention that the flaps were not deployed prior to takeoff, with an empty coffee to remind them. Your video shows the takeoff attempt with flaps up. That plus ice and a lower takeoff speed could easily disrupt flight controls.
@@eucliduschaumeau8813 I also feel like the animation didn't line up at all with the desceiption of the event, at least once the plane was struggling to get airborne. Past videos have been much more accurate with more attention to detail, IMO
Must be an error in the number given in the icing study- a 12 mm particle (if spherical) would almost completely cover a 1 cm square (10x10 mm), and I wouldn't blame the wing for losing lift.
That really was a mental error by the flight crew. Waiting 35 minutes while it was snowing without a third deicing. It's very sad. 27 died including the Captain and one of flight attendants. RIP 27 souls. Thank you for another great presentation.
I mean, TFC did mention that that airport didn't use Type II deicing fluid to prevent more deicing. Maybe the captain and FO assumed they had and didn't think anything of it.
At time 4:40 the video states that the captain decides to takeoff at a reduced speed of 110 knots. There is no explanation of why he would do this and it makes no sense to try to lift off at a lower than normal speed. There is no mention of this again. I suspect this is an inaccurate interpretation of what was really decided and a misuse of the word takeoff. Perhaps V1 was lower than what would be typical under more favorable conditions due to runway length and contamination? What really went on here?
@@JoeyFlyBoy Sorry but I don't believe that even for an empty F-28. Eighty knots is an airspeed crosscheck speed during takeoff roll, not a liftoff speed.
@@JoeyFlyBoy Oh, did the Air Disaster episode explain it? What is it that you get? Since you have seen this highly authoritative TV program, perhaps you can explain the link between icing and "taking off" at 80 knots. It is a complete mystery to me.
I also didn't get that. In these conditions you'd want to increase vr speed instead of reducing it, unless he wanted to lift off earlier. But in that case a higher flap setting would be more appropriate.
a reasonable person could assume that that kind of safety action is so vital that the person who failed to do so did so intentionally. a reasonable person could say this is a mass murder based on that.
Love your exciting work. Have watched for 4 years now. If I'm ever in an air crash (heaven forbid) I'll be sure to explain to any fellow victims EXACTLY HOW we crashed, thanks to your training provided here. LOL !
Hi Flight Channel, Happy Thursday to you all!! man, I just love watching your videos as it's like watching real filming. Thanks for everything!! oh and one more thing, if I ever have to fly, because of your channel, I'll have a shit load of questions to ask!!
What’s up with these videos ending with the crash and then going backwards and not telling us how many deaths and who died. Gives us too much information as well and very little about the passengers and crew. Weird set up.
Did you forget how to use Google? The information is there, this just gives us an inside look of what they feel caused the crash and information on the pilots action during the flight.
So, I have been watching your videos for quite some time, and here are some that i am requesting that you add. Day 8. Pulkovo Aviation Enterprise flight 612 Korean airlines 858 1983 Chosonminhang Ilyushin Il-62 crash TAN 414 Pulkovo Aviation Enterprise Flight 9560 Ural Airlines Flight 178 Libyan Arab airlines flight 114 Libyan Arab airline flight 1103 TWA 800 (Not the one that crashed in New York, but the one that crashed in Italy) Kenya airways flight 431 Aero flight 311 LOT Polish airlines flight 007 LOT Polish airlines flight 5055 Delta airlines flight 723 World airways flight 30 Eastern airlines flight 375 Air Greenland 3275 Ariania airlines 701 Air Canada 621 Vnukovo flight 2801 UT air 120 UTA 772 United airlines flight 227
A big issue also on the MD80's series not so on the DC9. The center fuel tank bulkhead on the MD80 was in the wing, right in front of the engine intake. The wing fuel is the last to be consumed, so It is long time exposed to low temperature. This cold fuel temperature freeze the bulkhead building up transparent ice over the wing. This ice was suck in the engine causing engine shut down.
please leave the text up about 3 seconds longer --- its so annoying to have to interrupt the flow of the video to pause it so we can catch up , even with some of us who actually read faster than average folks---the text still goes by way too fast. Other videos its fine.
So were the flaps set correctly by the crew prior to take-off after delaying their deployment during taxi? The video seems to show them in a retracted position and there's no mention as to whether they had or hadn't been deployed. Seems kind of relevant to clarify after specifically pointing out how the crew deviated from standard procedure in this case.
We have been complaining about this for months. Absolutely no response or adjustment. Do they live in their own little world or simply do not care? This is the most poorly done episode that I can remember (amongst many good episodes).
I dont know if you were in a bad mood, rushed or out sourced this video to a third party.... It was not as smooth, well edited, timed or executed as usual... It felt crammed and rushed. Im disappointed but you owe me nothing so take my grumbling with a grain of salt.
First stock I ever invested in. Just after the two crashes in 1994. Stock had tanked and I bought some shares at around $7. Sold later when it clawed back to $11 and thought I was so smart. Couple of years later it hit the $70s
No-one or we would have been told!!! But of course folk in the comments checked the facts and indeed there were survivors. About time TFC stopped the sloppiness that is creeping into these videos. Anyway, always good that all types of flights are included, especially special flights like this from La Guardia to La Guardia. Test flight???
Worked from US at the time and during a couple other crashes. It wasn't easy working there during that stretch for sure, employees were hurting and had to listen to pax tell them things like USscare to own face, thinking it was funny. Sully certainly changed that image big time and after that point it was smooth until being absorbed by AA. Bless all those involved.
I think the fact that F28s did not have leading edge slats (only trailing flaps) did not help this crash and another similar accident in a F28 in Canada. The first version of the DC-9 (DC-9-10 series) also lacked leading edge slats and there was a snowy day tragedy at Denver Stapleton during takeoff. The subsequent DC-9s variants (DC-9-20 through 50 series), all had leading edge slats. And newer Fokkers also had them. It was a hard lesson for McDonnell-Douglas and Fokker. Slats add lots of extra lift to help counter small amounts of ice and they make a difference. This is not mentioned as a problem by the NTSB simply because those accidents still could be avoided with proper de-icing, the lack of features or equipment can't be cited by them if those lacking features or equipment are allowed by aircraft manufacturers and authorities (such as FAA) that approve aircraft designs as airworthy. But I still think slats could have saved one or two of these accidents. No way to know for sure. But we pilots know things.
You really should cover Air Ontario flight 1363. If the recommendations from the result of this crash (years prior) were adhered to, this likely wouldn’t have happened
This is admittedly a dumb question but if people can have heated driveways that melt ice so they don't need to shovel can't airplanes have heated wing edges to melt snow and ice as soon as it touches?
Airplanes using hot air from the engines do indeed have heated leading edges where inflight icing can occur. Inflight, due to airflow, the rest of the wing doesn't accumulate contamination. "Bleeding" hot air off the engine for deicing/anti-icing, reduces the power available for performance. The amount of power loss that would be necessary to protect the whole wing on a take off roll (no airflow over the wing to start with) would be too much to meet the performance required for the takeoff. Newer deicing fluids (type 4) do a very good job in keeping the entire wing a clean wing until airborne (yet even type4 fluid has time constraint limitations).
This may have been in effect in 1992, but today, after a plane is de-iced pilots abide by their holdover time: the time in which after the de-icing in finished to when the fluid will no longer be effective. Type 1 fluid only has a holdover time of about 15 minutes so when the pilots were informed of the traffic delay they should have turned back for more de-icing as they would exceed their holdover time.
This. I've worked aircraft deice. We tell the pilots "start your clock" to establish their holdover time once we begin the final fluid application. (During heavy snow this can take several passes.) Type I is only good for deice; anti-ice requires a different fluid. Back then it would have been type II, nowadays we use type IV (the green slimy stuff). If the holdover time expires you're supposed to turn around and get another pass done. These guys were reckless.
Brings back a memory Flying from Greece to NY to Detroit, January Took off from NY, looked out window, maybe 10 yds of visual, snow Just glad we made it to DTX My flight out of DTX delayed due to snow Dinner & lots of beer in Detroit with some new friends & a free room...
This video had weird editing. The crash repeated like three times and we don’t know the casualty count unless you slow video down to .25 speed in the last second. Thumbs down.
Didn't the exact same thing happen to that plane in 82 that hit a bridge and crashed in a body of water in DC? The plane was deiced, but it accumulated again while sitting on the runway. How could this happen again.
Actually they used to, called de-icer boots, but I guess engineers felt that planes were modern enough that de-icing sprays would be enough to keep planes safe……
I'm just guessing based on physics etc here, but for one thing that would add another system (which requires more energy) to an already complex one, and more importantly it would quite possibly interfere with the actual wing structure and with the hot-cold dynamic being in the same place it could decrease the lifespan of the wing's durability from the expansion/contraction of the materials. More than willing to stand aside for anyone who knows about those things more factually than me, but here's an objective fact for the count: People fly in icy weather all the time and don't have problems, cuz most planes don't plainly (ohhh, punny...) suck at doing so, and deicing isn't a problem if people do their jobs and employ common sense.
Sorry to say but TheFlightChannel is no longer doing the excellent job that once made their videos top notch. The majestic music that they once had in the past videos is no longer present and, that is a shame. It added to the videos. Most importantly, in the past, those who died were honored with a reasonable time to read it for more than 5 seconds and the music accompanying such was present. Now, the wording to memorialize those who died is barely 2 seconds, and no majestic music. This makes the more recent videos less special-something indeed has changed and it is not a positive.
Great video. OK, I fully agree with the NTSB regarding the FAA and the airport's responsibility here. But I think the crew has more responsibility here than implied in the summary, provided in the video. The flight crew had decided to limit takeoff to 110 knots. Really? In this kind of weather? This situation demanded full throttle and getting speed up as much as possible to ensure the airliner exceeded stall speed given the precipitation and ice and the Fokker's vulnerability. As the crew felt a loss of lift, they tried to land the plane before it hit the water. Did they forget that they were at LaGuardia? On the Bay Runway (13R/31L) at Kennedy, you can get away with that. Not on a 7,000-foot runway at LaGuardia. I have watched 727s and 737s use nearly the entire runway before lifting off during an evening of nice weather with no rain or snow. Abort the takeoff and land on the runway? Only after you smoke something really strong and psychedelic. luka3532's very astute comment about deicing being available as you taxi to the runway was excellent. This crew did not know their airplane or the airport well.
The limit of 110 was misstated. This was most likely a reduction in V1 decision speed do to slick runway. V1 speed can be reduced to a minimum vmc rudder effective speed in order to negate a lengthened Accelerate Stop distance. This is a very common and sound practice. Rotation speeds cannot be reduced for a given weight unless higher flap/slat/LEF settings are used at the expense of climb performance. Im sure this is what the captain meant. However an old strategy when a crew suspects minor icing is to in fact do what you suggest…..Increase VR speed by a certain margin when not balance field length limited.
I am curious as to whether as part of the investigation they established with potentially if they had actually firewall the throttles and raise the gear with the aircraft could’ve actually flown out of there?
Florida palm, 90 was kind of the same, but different LOL stalling and crashing on the Potomac river and they established that they did not set takeoff power correctly, and if they had of applied full power, the aircraft would have flown out satisfactory
I am a strong self reliance believer. Planes should be fitted with de-icing heaters so that it could be possible to take off 5 hours into an Alaskan blizzard. Then it should be deiced anyway, directly after roll out and onto the take off runway.
There are lots of things mentioned in this video which seem to be unclear. Were the flaps set properly after remaining retracted during the taxi? Why was the takeoff speed reduced? And several others.... 😟
WHY would a Captain announce a technical feature of flaps in the zero configuration. Never heard of such a thing unless a eagle eyed pilot was aboard and started a fuss. I don't believe for a second that the mention of the coffee cup was in incidental happenstance. Maybe it is a good cue. But something doesn't seem right. It's possible the ice caused it, highly, yet they seemed diligent several times.
Blaming the pilots again. Did they also include failure to have a crystal ball and a fairy on the wings to get a closer look? Poor deicing procedures and the wrong fluid is the cause. These were experienced pilots who didn't see any Ice.
It reminds me of the crash too! Air Florida flight 90 took off from National Airport in DC and crashed into the Potomac River when it stalled while taking off... The wings weren't properly de-iced. For those that asked!
Your video is incredible bro, but I want to ask you a question? why don't you make a video about Ural Airlines Flight 1383 on p3d v5 with a320 214 fslabs please reply to my comment I wanted to be a member but I don't have that much money if you can it will be the last
Airplanes without leading edge slats (like the F28) are very sensitive to wing contamination. Flew one of these over 40 years back around Africa, and on extremely hot days we would use a broom to remove the dead bugs from the leading edge that we had collected on the previous landing.
This accident reminds me of the Air Florida crash in the Potomac River! That plane was deuced a few times too but it also spend a lot of time waiting on the runway before take off! National Airport has a rather short runway I was told! Very sad!
I always seem to watch these types of videos before an air flight business trip. Tonight, I watch safe at home after last week's flight. I made a mistake at work today. Not a terrible one, just confused invoices. You are all so lucky I am not a part of an airline company because mistakes happen. This is what freaks me out about these incidents.
Type I in active precipitation with temperature below freezing only give about 20 minutes. They should have use, in those days type II, which could give them an additional 20 to 30 minutes. Now there is type IV which gives an hour of protection, it is a viscous goo that, when the drag of acceleration brings it over 85 MPH it liquifies and flows off of the surface, taking any snow or ice with it.
Don't remind me, I was on duty at a US res center at the time of this crash. We heard that term for years from passengers and it was tough to hear countless times. Of course, no carrier wants to go through anything like that and we hurt as well but people are still so callous. Sully certainly changed opinions from then on until they were absorbed into AA.
I've been on some airplanes where they de ice immediately before take off, delaying take off. Definitely will never feel irritated again at the wait!! But one question - it's a lot colder at high altitudes if the plane is deiced at the start and flies thru a storm - what's to keep it from crashing later as ice builds up on the flight?
![Extremely Heavy, Overload B747 Crashes Immediately Right After Take Off [XP11]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tG0qeC0S0iA/mqdefault.jpg)
I feel like the "in memory of" part should be longer than a blink of an eye at the end of these videos.
Me too.
Agreed
I think you mean "in memory of" or "memorial of". A memorandum is a short reminder used in correspondence.
But I get your point.
I keep looking for it and when I do see it, poof!, it’s gone in a blink of an eye…..
All those poor souls deserve better
And it was preventable. This had already happened three years earlier on Air Ontario Flight 1363 which killed 24 people.
Dam that plane flew over the same section of runway like 6 times
In remembrance:
Captain Wallace Junior Majure II, 44
Flight Attendant Janice Adele King, 35
Nancy S. Beckwith, 41
William J. Beckwith, 48
Frank C. Forshew, 50
Dean E. Gray, 41
Cyrus O. Holder, 46
Joseph Glenn Irvin, 61
Marilyn J. Irvin, 59
Steven Paul Leopold
Victor Martin
Nancy Mays
Thoral J. Mitchell, 60
Virginia Marie Ginny Rini Mitchell, 55
Thomas Charles Mikuta, 34
Michael William Mould, 22
Jennifer Paloci
David Lee Porcelli, 40
Karen Ann Porcelli, 35
John Stanko, 72
Sally C. Steward, 48
Douglas Radcliff-Unstead, 52
Andrés Davison
Roland Mayer
Rolf Herzinger
Eckard Saeftal
Kenya Kazehara, 36
And to the survivors:
First Officer John Rachuba, 30
Flight Attendant Debra Taylor
Yassar Abdelsamed
William Blair, 50
James Block, 51
Joan Forshew
Kathryn Gray
Richard Lee Lawson, 45
Bob Main
Connie Merrill
Thomas Merrill, 40
Denis Miller
Yasser Morsi, 22
Sidney Nudelman
Frederick Paulenich
Michael Richards, 24
Clay Richter
Helen Ross, 54
Ronald Ross, 57
Ann Sacknitz, 32
Bart Simon, 43
Robert Spear, 24
Kendra St. Charles, 39
Laura Trego, 23
Did Racuba the FO fly again ?
Did FO Rachuba fly again ?
For those who may not know, survivor Richard Lee Lawson is the same Richard Lawson who married Tina Knowles, mother of singer/actress Beyonce.
Thank you for this.
I would never fly again 😢
What's with the misleading thumbnail? Your own recreation doesn't show the aircraft rolling inverted. The Mayday episode on this incident doesn't show the aircraft rolling inverted, though the Wikipedia article reports that a piece of the aircraft became inverted after impact. It wasn't near houses. It occurred at night in snow, not day with clear sky.
Complete Clusterfck
These types of channels always get things wrong. Some are actually pretty funny
Clickbait.
Yes. I wish there was a Report and Block function on RUclips. This channel is editorially shit.
Unlike on X I regret there is no Report and Block function on RUclips. This channel is editorially shit. And worse, if you leave a comment like this to help users, and then Hide it to avoid polluting your timeline, then RUclips erases your comments!! Come on Google. You can be better than that. 👎
I feel like the cabin door being open during take-off didn't help. (Yes, I know it was a just a mistake.)
😎😎
Lol I noticed that as well
Yes! I noticed that as well😂
I saw that too!
I figured they just wanted to feel the wind in their hair like riding a motorcycle.
I love your channel and greatly appreciate the work you put into it. Please consider honoring the souls that didn't make it with a bit more mention in the ending🙏🌹
I didn't like the way the video stopped. As someone who did not remember the details, my first thought was, "Did this plane fall in the water, or rise and dive straight down? I feel I better go read the news story and get the rest of the story.
Issues like this could be easily solved by placing the de-icing teams near the runways rather than at the terminal. This would prevent ice from accumulating over a long taxi.
Absolutely, and there has been a lot of improvement in that area since this accident.
Most airports now do the deicing at the "car wash", a permanent point near the runway entrance point.
I mean the instructions literally say the stuff is good for 22 mins before takeoff.
Problem has been solved…accident wasn’t yesterday. USAir no longer exists and there hasn’t been a real crash in the US in 15 years
@@larryp6671 In the 1990's, Pittsburgh Internatinal installed permanent deicing stations or "car washes" . Every plane now goes through it right before entering the runway for takeoff. I know, I worked for USAir in PIT at the time.
It appeared in your video they didn't have the flaps extended. After mention of the coffee cup I would have expected this to be pointed out.
Yeah, hard to believe the NTSB wouldn't consider that and the lowered takeoff speed as contributing causes of the crash.
@@perniciouspete4986 I've gotta admit, I've been more confused about the events in this video than I ever have been in TFC videos. I don't know what's going on with them, but hopefully it's better next vid.
Not mentioned in the Wikipedia article either. The Wiki did mention that the NTSB noted that he rotated at a lower speed than standard.
I'm familiar with that model, possibly even that specific aircraft, as I worked for some time at Piedmont Airlines, which was absorbed by US Air shortly after I left and they flew F28's.
I'm surprised as well that the wings suffered so greatly from ice contamination, as the Dutch most certainly are more than slightly familiar with ice and icing! Otherwise, they were a rather reliable and stable aircraft.
Was the coffee that had previously been in the cup regular or decaf? And which pilot drank it?
@@cadaverdog1424 Vodka.
Of the 51 people on board, 27 were killed, including the captain and a member of the cabin crew. 😢
I thought it was all 27 people? The video is missing the end part.
@no-one-in-particular, You're absolutely hitting the nail -> 0:14 La Guardia Airport, NY - 0:16 preparing a Fokker 28 for a passenger service to La Guardia Airport ?? Is this a sightseeing round trip ?? Are we the only ones who noticed ???
it's interesting how u put so much detail in the video but forget to mention if anyone survived 😕
THATS WHAT I WAS WONDERING, NO MENTION IF ANY ONE SURVIVED........
@@zennabella1676 Well gee, this wasn't hard - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAir_Flight_405
@@c00kee Gee... why make a video if people can just read what happened 🤓
ruclips.net/video/z_ioFBcwr7w/видео.html
@@jrmckimcould also take the time to look it up instead of bitching 😊
Love this channel, but please please bring back the haunting music, and as many have said, a longer tribute at the end for those who perished.
This one was rushed out the door unfinished in many respects. Please try to live up to your standards or don't publish at all.
@@deepthinker999 In regard to the loss of life it's a damn shame. Something ought to be inserted into the narrative at the point of the crash.
👍👍👍👍👍
Type 1 was almost useless if any snow was falling. Type 4 was a huge improvement, offering almost a full hour of protection in most circumstances after application. Thanks for the great video.
Type 4 would have made a big difference for Air Florida 90 had it been around back then.
JFK airport terminal c
Did this feel rushed to anyone else?
Yes it did.
The text blocks aren't given enough screen time. I have to keep pausing the video.
The movements of the plane looked so much like a nightmare-inspired roller coaster 💔
Been there, done that in Detroit.
this video just felt...different. You ok there TFC??
Apparently not. At least redo the video and get it right.
Videos have not been very good quality lately. Right now, the best out there hands down is Green Dot Aviation.
The fuuu
Maybe he sold his channel to someone else or else he has a partner helping him edit
Hold on
11:24 "Neither of them took any action to check the condition of the wing leading edge and upper surface"
but you show several instances of the pilots checking the wings, even shortly before take-off
5:49 "As the pilots approach the number one spot for takeoff, they look back at the wings several times. Near the time of takeoff, the copilot says *looks good to me, black strip is clear*"
Is the implication here that the NTSB doesn't believe the pilots *actually* checked?
JFK airport
No, though with how it's worded in the video, I can definitely see how it would be confusing. The NTSB believed the pilots should have entered the cabin to check the state of the wings. As in, simply checking from the cockpit was not thorough enough given the severity of the icing potential. The video states the cabin part, but doesn't elaborate any further.
The pilots didnt physically walk around the plane and check for ice, which is normal procedure, but USAir didnt require this so it wasnt performed. However they DID turn on a wing light and look out the window, which is not a true and accurate inspection when snow is already falling and its dark.
You mention that the flaps were not deployed prior to takeoff, with an empty coffee to remind them. Your video shows the takeoff attempt with flaps up. That plus ice and a lower takeoff speed could easily disrupt flight controls.
Titanic engine
Yeah, seems to make a point of mentioning the coffee cup and all, then never comes back to that point. Strange
This video seemed more rushed than usual - no details on the pilots, tiny mention of casualties, very dense paragraphs.
Ya im not liking it...
What happened to this channel its not allowing enough time to read the captions in a comfortable time and the ending its so abrupt
27 people died, for those who (understandably) missed that blip. What happened to you, Flight Channel?
For real, a lot of these have felt sloppy and rushed lately...
The video was good until he forgot to mention the final details of victims and the crash.
@@eucliduschaumeau8813 I also feel like the animation didn't line up at all with the desceiption of the event, at least once the plane was struggling to get airborne. Past videos have been much more accurate with more attention to detail, IMO
How was it flying over the water after hitting several things, yet landed partly on the water.
Did he mention how many souls were on board once they left Laguardia?
Must be an error in the number given in the icing study- a 12 mm particle (if spherical) would almost completely cover a 1 cm square (10x10 mm), and I wouldn't blame the wing for losing lift.
Titanic engine cylinder engineering room
That really was a mental error by the flight crew. Waiting 35 minutes while it was snowing without a third deicing. It's very sad. 27 died including the Captain and one of flight attendants. RIP 27 souls. Thank you for another great presentation.
I mean, TFC did mention that that airport didn't use Type II deicing fluid to prevent more deicing. Maybe the captain and FO assumed they had and didn't think anything of it.
Basically ignoring the final recommendations and reports from Air Ontario flight 1363 years prior could have prevented this.
At time 4:40 the video states that the captain decides to takeoff at a reduced speed of 110 knots. There is no explanation of why he would do this and it makes no sense to try to lift off at a lower than normal speed. There is no mention of this again. I suspect this is an inaccurate interpretation of what was really decided and a misuse of the word takeoff. Perhaps V1 was lower than what would be typical under more favorable conditions due to runway length and contamination? What really went on here?
I think the F28 was qualified to takeoff with a low airspeed at around 80 knots or higher
@@JoeyFlyBoy Sorry but I don't believe that even for an empty F-28. Eighty knots is an airspeed crosscheck speed during takeoff roll, not a liftoff speed.
@@gort8203 i get it but there is an Air disaster episode regarding the F28 icing accidents.
@@JoeyFlyBoy Oh, did the Air Disaster episode explain it? What is it that you get? Since you have seen this highly authoritative TV program, perhaps you can explain the link between icing and "taking off" at 80 knots. It is a complete mystery to me.
I also didn't get that. In these conditions you'd want to increase vr speed instead of reducing it, unless he wanted to lift off earlier. But in that case a higher flap setting would be more appropriate.
Liked the addition of "the flight crew" in the cockpit view, makes it more realistic.
How f”ing lucky was the chap who de-planed. Wow. So lucky
I was looking for someone to comment on that. Crazy, akin to dodging a bullet
The passenger deplaned in Jacksonville. Same plane, different flight out of NY
A single 12mm ice particle per square cm is actually quite a lot of ice!
Airport
Great video. Not checking the outside was a big mistake.
a reasonable person could assume that that kind of safety action is so vital that the person who failed to do so did so intentionally. a reasonable person could say this is a mass murder based on that.
Paying attention to recommendations made after the Air Ontario (#1363) years prior could have prevented this.
@@rstidman Nope. Not true. Video even says why you're wrong.
The recreation of classic livery is always a nice touch!
i m gonna try to get more likes with ny Hooker comment..please like my comment above.
Love your exciting work.
Have watched for 4 years now.
If I'm ever in an air crash (heaven forbid) I'll be sure to explain to any fellow victims EXACTLY HOW we crashed, thanks to your training provided here.
LOL !
And hopefully your family sues the shit out of them.
😢😢😢😢😢
God bless you 🙏 don't ever crash and stay away from shoddy airlines you saw from this channel
@@dliang4628
Right on Sir.
I'll avoid the new low cost carrier:
"We don't maintain - so you save !"
Airlines....
@@dliang4628 nearly every airline have crashed before, they have the same training, same planes etc. The only big difference is the routes.
Hi Flight Channel, Happy Thursday to you all!! man, I just love watching your videos as it's like watching real filming. Thanks for everything!! oh and one more thing, if I ever have to fly, because of your channel, I'll have a shit load of questions to ask!!
What’s up with these videos ending with the crash and then going backwards and not telling us how many deaths and who died. Gives us too much information as well and very little about the passengers and crew. Weird set up.
Did you forget how to use Google? The information is there, this just gives us an inside look of what they feel caused the crash and information on the pilots action during the flight.
Those that died know … what do you care how many people died???
Maybe the Leon’s weren’t extended…
What on earth… I pray for the two of you.
Initially the plane flew from LaGuardia to LaGuardia?
So, I have been watching your videos for quite some time, and here are some that i am requesting that you add.
Day 8.
Pulkovo Aviation Enterprise flight 612
Korean airlines 858
1983 Chosonminhang Ilyushin Il-62 crash
TAN 414
Pulkovo Aviation Enterprise Flight 9560
Ural Airlines Flight 178
Libyan Arab airlines flight 114
Libyan Arab airline flight 1103
TWA 800 (Not the one that crashed in New York, but the one that crashed in Italy)
Kenya airways flight 431
Aero flight 311
LOT Polish airlines flight 007
LOT Polish airlines flight 5055
Delta airlines flight 723
World airways flight 30
Eastern airlines flight 375
Air Greenland 3275
Ariania airlines 701
Air Canada 621
Vnukovo flight 2801
UT air 120
UTA 772
United airlines flight 227
A big issue also on the MD80's series not so on the DC9. The center fuel tank bulkhead on the MD80 was in the wing, right in front of the engine intake. The wing fuel is the last to be consumed, so It is long time exposed to low temperature. This cold fuel temperature freeze the bulkhead building up transparent ice over the wing. This ice was suck in the engine causing engine shut down.
Sounds like a pos. Can’t AI make better
That was a contributing factor in SAS 751 (MD-81); miraculously all those folks survived.
@@peggyl2849 Oh yes, after the SAS they fit some red cords over the wing for transparent ice build up inspection. The cords had to move free.
yes, its all too easy to forget that water (ie: precip) freezes long before fuel does. jet A's freeze point is -53°F/-47°C.
please leave the text up about 3 seconds longer --- its so annoying to have to interrupt the flow of the video to pause it so we can catch up , even with some of us who actually read faster than average folks---the text still goes by way too fast. Other videos its fine.
So were the flaps set correctly by the crew prior to take-off after delaying their deployment during taxi?
The video seems to show them in a retracted position and there's no mention as to whether they had or hadn't been deployed. Seems kind of relevant to clarify after specifically pointing out how the crew deviated from standard procedure in this case.
Thanks! Were you in a rush with the video?
Been a long time fan but would you mind leaving the fatality count on the screen a little longer please I'd like to read it.😊 thanks a ton 🐘
We have been complaining about this for months. Absolutely no response or adjustment. Do they live in their own little world or simply do not care? This is the most poorly done episode that I can remember (amongst many good episodes).
I dont know if you were in a bad mood, rushed or out sourced this video to a third party.... It was not as smooth, well edited, timed or executed as usual... It felt crammed and rushed. Im disappointed but you owe me nothing so take my grumbling with a grain of salt.
Other than a lot of other patrons that feel exactly the same way. You are in the majority on this one.
First stock I ever invested in. Just after the two crashes in 1994. Stock had tanked and I bought some shares at around $7. Sold later when it clawed back to $11 and thought I was so smart. Couple of years later it hit the $70s
Did i miss who survived?
No one, apparently
Yes, some had a premonition and departed before the flight.
No-one or we would have been told!!! But of course folk in the comments checked the facts and indeed there were survivors. About time TFC stopped the sloppiness that is creeping into these videos. Anyway, always good that all types of flights are included, especially special flights like this from La Guardia to La Guardia. Test flight???
You did.
There were 51 on the plane. 27 died, and 24 survived
So, did everyone die? I guess I missed that part?
You did
27 of the 51 on board, including the captain and a flight attendant. 😢
Anybody know how many people were initially on this flight and whether the captain and first officer survived?
51 (47 passengers, four crew); the captain died but the first officer survived.
@@WeaselKing1000 Thank you, WeaselKing! 😊
Not ‘people’… ‘SOULS’… your choice of words is insensitive …
@@cadaverdog1424 Wow…
When the coffee cup was mentioned, I expected he would forget the flaps.
Worked from US at the time and during a couple other crashes. It wasn't easy working there during that stretch for sure, employees were hurting and had to listen to pax tell them things like USscare to own face, thinking it was funny. Sully certainly changed that image big time and after that point it was smooth until being absorbed by AA. Bless all those involved.
I think the fact that F28s did not have leading edge slats (only trailing flaps) did not help this crash and another similar accident in a F28 in Canada. The first version of the DC-9 (DC-9-10 series) also lacked leading edge slats and there was a snowy day tragedy at Denver Stapleton during takeoff. The subsequent DC-9s variants (DC-9-20 through 50 series), all had leading edge slats. And newer Fokkers also had them. It was a hard lesson for McDonnell-Douglas and Fokker. Slats add lots of extra lift to help counter small amounts of ice and they make a difference. This is not mentioned as a problem by the NTSB simply because those accidents still could be avoided with proper de-icing, the lack of features or equipment can't be cited by them if those lacking features or equipment are allowed by aircraft manufacturers and authorities (such as FAA) that approve aircraft designs as airworthy. But I still think slats could have saved one or two of these accidents. No way to know for sure. But we pilots know things.
You really should cover Air Ontario flight 1363.
If the recommendations from the result of this crash (years prior) were adhered to, this likely wouldn’t have happened
Hello Christine, I was going to make the same suggestion, but you beat me to it.
This is admittedly a dumb question but if people can have heated driveways that melt ice so they don't need to shovel can't airplanes have heated wing edges to melt snow and ice as soon as it touches?
Airplanes using hot air from the engines do indeed have heated leading edges where inflight icing can occur. Inflight, due to airflow, the rest of the wing doesn't accumulate contamination. "Bleeding" hot air off the engine for deicing/anti-icing, reduces the power available for performance. The amount of power loss that would be necessary to protect the whole wing on a take off roll (no airflow over the wing to start with) would be too much to meet the performance required for the takeoff. Newer deicing fluids (type 4) do a very good job in keeping the entire wing a clean wing until airborne (yet even type4 fluid has time constraint limitations).
JFK airport
@@shaynewheeler9249 that's what you keep saying, yeah. And it's completely irrelevant in every case.
Texas roadhouse
A plane is not a driveway.
i will never fly in bad weather again !
Man what a nightmare.
This may have been in effect in 1992, but today, after a plane is de-iced pilots abide by their holdover time: the time in which after the de-icing in finished to when the fluid will no longer be effective. Type 1 fluid only has a holdover time of about 15 minutes so when the pilots were informed of the traffic delay they should have turned back for more de-icing as they would exceed their holdover time.
This. I've worked aircraft deice. We tell the pilots "start your clock" to establish their holdover time once we begin the final fluid application. (During heavy snow this can take several passes.) Type I is only good for deice; anti-ice requires a different fluid. Back then it would have been type II, nowadays we use type IV (the green slimy stuff). If the holdover time expires you're supposed to turn around and get another pass done.
These guys were reckless.
Thank you so much for putting effort and creating this video.
I really appreciate it ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
What about the flaps. Why didn't the NTSB mention that? That was probably the biggest reason for the u controllable flight, plus no pilot walk around.
The report concluded that the wings were configured correctly. That was mentioned.
Brings back a memory
Flying from Greece to NY to Detroit, January
Took off from NY, looked out window, maybe 10 yds of visual, snow
Just glad we made it to DTX
My flight out of DTX delayed due to snow
Dinner & lots of beer in Detroit with some new friends & a free room...
The plane cannot be at LaGuardia at the start, unless this is the world's shortest flight
I'm usually the first to jump at TFC's defense when they make a mistake, but this episode just seemed sloppy.
This video had weird editing. The crash repeated like three times and we don’t know the casualty count unless you slow video down to .25 speed in the last second. Thumbs down.
Roger Ebert....is that you?
And what about the coffee cup?
Yeah. The coffee cup. Plus, the front passenger door was wide open and the flaps were up during takeoff.
Didn't the exact same thing happen to that plane in 82 that hit a bridge and crashed in a body of water in DC? The plane was deiced, but it accumulated again while sitting on the runway. How could this happen again.
Ice is a lot of weight. It disbalance's everything
Stick shake ? SHUT IT DOWN !!! DO NOT TAKE OFF 😮
"The pilots did not perform a walk-around inspection of the aircraft." What?
"In fact, they were not required to do so." WHAT!?!
I am never flying again
Imagine being that one passenger who decided to get off the plane, that type of thing sticks with you forever
That "Final Destination" feeling could be truly haunting.
look, an "Imagine" comment!
Didn't matter...that was the incoming flight to NY. All the passengers made it safely. It just made the plane late
ok I got another question, why cant they put a heating strip on each wing, kind like people use for the edge of roofs.
There is one, it's pneumatic wing anti-ice, but it only works on the leading edges when the engines are running.
Actually they used to, called de-icer boots, but I guess engineers felt that planes were modern enough that de-icing sprays would be enough to keep planes safe……
I'm just guessing based on physics etc here, but for one thing that would add another system (which requires more energy) to an already complex one, and more importantly it would quite possibly interfere with the actual wing structure and with the hot-cold dynamic being in the same place it could decrease the lifespan of the wing's durability from the expansion/contraction of the materials. More than willing to stand aside for anyone who knows about those things more factually than me, but here's an objective fact for the count: People fly in icy weather all the time and don't have problems, cuz most planes don't plainly (ohhh, punny...) suck at doing so, and deicing isn't a problem if people do their jobs and employ common sense.
@@Veldrusara maybe so, either way I'm not getting on a plane without answers.
@@Veldrusara The F-28 wing leading edge was deiced in the conventional manner by engine bleed air.
All accidents that result in a loss of life are appalling obviously, but accidents like this which are very easily prevented, even more so.
I flew though LaGuardia many times in the mid-late 80's and it was always a mess. Never departed on time once; always huge delays.
Sorry to say but TheFlightChannel is no longer doing the excellent job that once made their videos top notch. The majestic music that they once had in the past videos is no longer present and, that is a shame. It added to the videos. Most importantly, in the past, those who died were honored with a reasonable time to read it for more than 5 seconds and the music accompanying such was present. Now, the wording to memorialize those who died is barely 2 seconds, and no majestic music. This makes the more recent videos less special-something indeed has changed and it is not a positive.
Very Well Said, but is anyone listening?
👍💯💯💯💯💯👍
@@deepthinker999👍💯💯💯👍
Great video. OK, I fully agree with the NTSB regarding the FAA and the airport's responsibility here. But I think the crew has more responsibility here than implied in the summary, provided in the video. The flight crew had decided to limit takeoff to 110 knots. Really? In this kind of weather? This situation demanded full throttle and getting speed up as much as possible to ensure the airliner exceeded stall speed given the precipitation and ice and the Fokker's vulnerability. As the crew felt a loss of lift, they tried to land the plane before it hit the water. Did they forget that they were at LaGuardia? On the Bay Runway (13R/31L) at Kennedy, you can get away with that. Not on a 7,000-foot runway at LaGuardia. I have watched 727s and 737s use nearly the entire runway before lifting off during an evening of nice weather with no rain or snow. Abort the takeoff and land on the runway? Only after you smoke something really strong and psychedelic. luka3532's very astute comment about deicing being available as you taxi to the runway was excellent. This crew did not know their airplane or the airport well.
Chicago airport airport terminal
The limit of 110 was misstated. This was most likely a reduction in V1 decision speed do to slick runway. V1 speed can be reduced to a minimum vmc rudder effective speed in order to negate a lengthened Accelerate Stop distance. This is a very common and sound practice. Rotation speeds cannot be reduced for a given weight unless higher flap/slat/LEF settings are used at the expense of climb performance. Im sure this is what the captain meant.
However an old strategy when a crew suspects minor icing is to in fact do what you suggest…..Increase VR speed by a certain margin when not balance field length limited.
Love your videos! Was just thinking, you should do one about the heist and escape of DB Cooper from the air stairs of the 727!
The NTSB blames the pilots for everything. Sounds like the airplane designers fault.
I am curious as to whether as part of the investigation they established with potentially if they had actually firewall the throttles and raise the gear with the aircraft could’ve actually flown out of there?
Florida palm, 90 was kind of the same, but different LOL stalling and crashing on the Potomac river and they established that they did not set takeoff power correctly, and if they had of applied full power, the aircraft would have flown out satisfactory
I am a strong self reliance believer. Planes should be fitted with de-icing heaters so that it could be possible to take off 5 hours into an Alaskan blizzard.
Then it should be deiced anyway, directly after roll out and onto the take off runway.
0:40 The one passenger that deplaned had the BIGGEST relief of all time
There are lots of things mentioned in this video which seem to be unclear. Were the flaps set properly after remaining retracted during the taxi? Why was the takeoff speed reduced? And several others.... 😟
Got that Florida air vibe about it
This is so sad great informative meeting tfc
No it’s not
WHY would a Captain announce a technical feature of flaps in the zero configuration. Never heard of such a thing unless a eagle eyed pilot was aboard and started a fuss. I don't believe for a second that the mention of the coffee cup was in incidental happenstance. Maybe it is a good cue. But something doesn't seem right. It's possible the ice caused it, highly, yet they seemed diligent several times.
Blaming the pilots again. Did they also include failure to have a crystal ball and a fairy on the wings to get a closer look?
Poor deicing procedures and the wrong fluid is the cause.
These were experienced pilots who didn't see any Ice.
Your work is that of a true artist and your details are brilliant.
L1 door was still open 😅
This incident reminds me of Air Florida flight 90.
Was that the one with the “improperly” packed oxygen generators?
@@robertdragoff6909 No, that one involved alligators.
It reminds me of the crash too! Air Florida flight 90 took off from National Airport in DC and crashed into the Potomac River when it stalled while taking off... The wings weren't properly de-iced. For those that asked!
@@robertdragoff6909that was ValuJet Flight 592... It took off from Miami International
Your video is incredible bro, but I want to ask you a question? why don't you make a video about Ural Airlines Flight 1383 on p3d v5 with a320 214 fslabs please reply to my comment I wanted to be a member but I don't have that much money if you can it will be the last
Airplanes without leading edge slats (like the F28) are very sensitive to wing contamination. Flew one of these over 40 years back around Africa, and on extremely hot days we would use a broom to remove the dead bugs from the leading edge that we had collected on the previous landing.
In what position were the flaps found to be?!?
The cup was in the proper position.
There was a coffee cup where the flap lever was supposed to be.
@@RLTtizME Cute
@@deepthinker999 You're not too bad yourself. You could knock off a few pounds tho.
They checked the wings. Why isn't there heaters in the damn things?
It's a Fokker plane. They don't have weather in Holland.
This accident reminds me of the Air Florida crash in the Potomac River! That plane was deuced a few times too but it also spend a lot of time waiting on the runway before take off! National Airport has a rather short runway I was told! Very sad!
TFC, why do you do multiple videos on one air accident?
Maybe so that they can be corrected like this one should be.
Okay…
I always seem to watch these types of videos before an air flight business trip. Tonight, I watch safe at home after last week's flight. I made a mistake at work today. Not a terrible one, just confused invoices. You are all so lucky I am not a part of an airline company because mistakes happen. This is what freaks me out about these incidents.
I miss when you used to mention all the victims that had died
See comments above. Some kind soul filled in the gaps.
You just never know if you’re going to be on the one that goes down. Be it negligent flight, crew, or ground crew. You just never know.
👍💯💯💯💯👍
Type I in active precipitation with temperature below freezing only give about 20 minutes. They should have use, in those days type II, which could give them an additional 20 to 30 minutes. Now there is type IV which gives an hour of protection, it is a viscous goo that, when the drag of acceleration brings it over 85 MPH it liquifies and flows off of the surface, taking any snow or ice with it.
I remember the airline got the name USscare because of its numerous accidents during the early 90s. Even SNL performed a skit on them.
Don't remind me, I was on duty at a US res center at the time of this crash. We heard that term for years from passengers and it was tough to hear countless times. Of course, no carrier wants to go through anything like that and we hurt as well but people are still so callous. Sully certainly changed opinions from then on until they were absorbed into AA.
Who's filming the plane from behind? This looks like CGI to me.
Ultimately it is the responsibility of the Captain to assure safe and orderly conduct of the flight. He failed, and his FO did not back him up.
They should make wings with a heating feature so that ice cannot build up on them.
I've been on some airplanes where they de ice immediately before take off, delaying take off.
Definitely will never feel irritated again at the wait!!
But one question - it's a lot colder at high altitudes if the plane is deiced at the start and flies thru a storm - what's to keep it from crashing later as ice builds up on the flight?
So were the pilots killed ? Was everybody killed ? LIFT YOUR GAME FLIGHT CHANNEL.
When the plane began to get shaky should they have gone full thrust forward and lower the angle of climb?
hello if i fly from nasvile to lga in mfs 2020 is it going north or south