Power Injection Flaws Exposed
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- Опубликовано: 10 янв 2022
- Trevi Lights - Quick video to talk about the power injection flaw and possible solutions
Diode Information:
www.amazon.com/dp/B07TND5MN3?...
Multimeter
www.amazon.com/AstroAI-Multim...
Falcon Controller
www.pixelcontroller.com/store...
WS2811 Pixels
www.amazon.com/Rextin-WS2811-...
12v Power Supply 360w
www.amazon.com/ALITOVE-Univer...
Tags
Mega Tree,christmas tree,led tree,L.E.D.,Led tree,ws2811,christmas lights,raspberrypi,singing tree,falcon tree,falcon controller,trevi,lights,raspberry,boscoyo,Trasn,Trans-Siberian Orchestra,TSO,Christmas Eve,Behind the scenes,Trevi,trevi lights,pixel 
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The downside of the approach that you mention using a diode is that there is a voltage drop across it. The voltage drop varies based on the particular diode, and could cause issues depending on the diode and what voltage pixels you are running. VCS has a power injection webinar from this past year. The recommendation is to cut power wires between different power supplies to eliminate backfeeding and possible overload of power supplies if one power source fails.
I love your videos and the work you are doing looking at the basics. Keep up the good work!
Yes. There a different options. All of them work and are okay. The power drop on this diode. is .3 to 5 volts. The higher the amps the higher the drop.
@@trevilights diodes don't work like that. Once the PN junction conducts, the voltage drop would remain under .7 volts until it fails due to Imax.
Wow, never thought about the back feed. Very interesting. Explained very well. Always enjoy your videos. Keep them coming.
back feeding into a 2nd power supply is never a good thing. One would hope there is internal protection, but who knows?
AS always, really enjoy and use what you produce in your videos to help me in my light show. Will watch with anticipation on your next videos this year
Thanks Wally.
Another great presentation.
Thanks for the video. Great job explaining the options and how to set it up.
Thanks Ed.
I had a problem with my falcon and the power feedback. Was causing it to act strange and burning out pixels. They had me cut the wire. I wish I thought about the diod! Such a better idea!
Glad to help. Keep in mind that diodes get hot. See if you can get some sort of heatsink.
great job trevi thank you
Great job our pixels data is a giant diode
Thank you for some very informative questions 👏
Thank you for your comment.
Thank you, for your reply back I will try and see it work. Anyway I enjoy your video is so clear to understand Keep them coming.
Will do. Thanks.
This is cool information. But in my show I do all of the power injection from the same power supply that powers the controller (or receiver). Often I inject by splitting out power at the first pixel and injecting it into the last pixel. This works especially well when the first and last pixel are near one another like on a snowflake, etc.
Hey Chuck. That's great. There are few other solutions or ways of preventing this. Thanks for watching.
Gracias por tus videos, son de Green ayuda
Gracias.
Ive avoided this possible problem entirely by powering my F16V3 externally via that small 2 way terminal block, and only using the negative and data outputs on F16V3 output ports. I then have a separate box that does all the power injection and also f-amps to help stabilize the data.
Definitely there are some work around. This is one of them. Thanks for posting.
you will have a 0.6 to 0.75 volt drop across the diode,depending on load (ie how many pixels are being powered) the power supply pot may need to be turned up a little to get full voltage sent to the pixels,especially in 5 volt installations. check with voltmeter and adjust pot accordingly.
Absolutely correct. I forgot to mention the power drop and that we could expect the diode to heat a little. Thanks for your comment.
hmm it is a good idea but it needs some adjustment in the case you are using 5V pixels (that diode is around 20% voltage lost) moving around the power injection closer to the controller should fix it unless i am missing something
Wow!! I never thought about back flow. Thanks for the info 👍
Hey Trevi! Just thought you would like to know my show was a hit 😁
And I owe it to all your Awesome videos 👍🤜 Thanks again!!
Hey Danny. I am glad about your show. You put a lot of time into it. Congrats. Let's plan for this year!
@@trevilights Let's!👍👍😁
Thanks for your very informative videos, we're loving them..
We are wondering why you are just cutting the positive side, but not the negative? All electricians I know, told us to cut both. Please Help!
Regards from Germany 🇩🇪
Hi Lizzie, Thanks for watching. You need to have common ground, otherwise the data signal will not be transmitted. The data line carries some low voltage. Regards from Tennessee USA.
So simple!!! Now the mystery is gone. 😮
Thank you very much!
Thanks for the video. I have a very small set up with 2 roof lines(one is 68 pixels and one 52pixel) , this year I change controller form SanDevices e6804 4 port which stopped working out of not where last year and now I purchased a Flacon 16v4, planning to add couple arches this year, and 1 more roof line. Controller is located in my garage and from there to the beginning of the first pixel of 2 current roof lines is between 12" and 16". I was wondering what is the maximum distance I can run cable before from the controller port to the first pixel before starting degrading current power, and what cable would you recommend.
Thank you again in advance.
Pixels are C9 Pixel for the roof lines, for the archs probably I will use nods 12v.
By the way from all tutorials I watched yours are the best.
Hi there. Thank you for watching my videos. When it comes to the data signal, I have a few connection that go as far as 30 feet. It a depends on the quality of the wire you use. If you need to go further, you can use a f-amp (link below). You can place one of this devices half way and it will amplify the data signal for another 20-30 feet. All comes down to testing. For voltage drop, again is all about measuring the voltage at different point using a voltmeter. Measure the voltage while playing a color wash effect and see if you need to do some power injection. I would say that keeping the voltage no lower that 9-10 volts will do the trick. Also lower the brightness of your pixels to 30%. This help a lot control power usage. Best of luck on your project.
Could we inject current from the first power supply if it has enough amp (where is the controler) at every 150 pixels +/- or we must use another power supply imperatively for the power injection ? If yes, no diode is required? If no, I have to buy more 12v power supplies.
Absolutely. That is actually the best way to do power injection. It just a matter of how far the power supply is from you other props. Thanks for watching.
How are u getting the power on all three power supply ,only one cable plug for all three of them can u explain
Hi Marlon, In the Video you see 3 power supplies. One powers the controller and the other two I use to inject power to different elements. This one has its own power cable. The box that has the two power supplies has only one power cord that connect to the wall. That power cable is connected to one of the power supplies and then I have a set of short wires that jump from the first one to the second one (line, neutral and ground). Just make sure that the power cable is rated to handle the wattage of the two power supplies. In my case 700watts(12v x 29amps each) if used at 100% of it capacity, which I will not. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for your video and support, I have a question ,,, where I can get the Falcon Controller? I need to get it. Need a good website so I can get it. Thanks again
At pixelcontroller.com they are out of stock for now. Keep checking back. I am also after one.
Buenas Como conecto Las tres cajas de power supply ,nomas con un cable de coriente.
Hola Marlon. La caja que tiene una sola fuente de poder tiene su propio cable de corriente. La segunda caja que tiene dos fuentes de poder usa solo un cable de corriente conectada a unos de ellos. Despues puedes brincar a la segunda fuente de poder con unos cables (3= Linea, Neutro y tierra). Saludos.
I think the diode is a good Idea solving the back feed problem. If you used one on all your power supplies, you would not have to worry about back feeding at all, making wiring simpler, with a lot less thinking :-)
Correct. Thanks for watching.
This is interesting. If a diode is placed on each + at the output from the PS, wouldn't you end up with the best of both worlds? Is there a problem with the power backflowing into the controller from the 2nd (or higher) PS if the main PS dies?
@@russzaccari7761 You can potentially place a diode on every positive. I am not a trained on electronics to know if the backflowing will actually damage the controller. But definitely the voltage will be fluctuating. One thing to keep in mind is that there is a power loss of around .5 forward volts when using a diode, which will no be an issue since you will be doing power injection anyways. Also the diode will start to heat up a little when more amps are flowing(all electronics do). I tried 10amp on this 15amps diode and it did heat up to the touch. But when connected to a pixel port (less than 5 amp) it stayed cool.
@@trevilights I know you can adjust the output voltage on the power supplies. You could adjust and up the voltage to allow for the .5 loss.
@@TheHobbyShopFilms You are correct, Output voltage can be adjusted.
Hi Trevi, do you have or will you be doing a video on Boscoyo 8 foot Chromatree?
Hey John. Unfortunately I do not have or plan to make a video. You can configure the tree the same as configure a mega tree use plastic strips. If it uses less thst 1024 pixels, you will only need 1 port. Do not forget power injection.
Ok thank you for all your help with last year’s display. Can,t wait to see your future videos
HI Trevi I enjoy watch your video, can you help me setup the F16V4 I can't get the output port on the F16V4 it only show port #1 but doesn't show all the other ports. How can I add port #2 to #16 pixel ports? F16V3 shows all 16 ports pixel output. Can you help me?
Thank you
Hi there. thanks for watching my video. That's a little odd, but try the this. In the Status page make sure that the "Board Configuration" drop down is set to"16 Local ports" and that the "Controller Mode" is set to "E131/Artnet". Hit "Set" button and restart the Controller. Once is has restarted go the the Pixel Port screen, and change the "Addressing Mode" has something like "Start Channel" or "Absolute Addressing" to remove the "Start/End Universe" columns.( I do not own a F16V4, still waiting to be available)
Good Luck.
hi trevi could i use the same ones on my 5v pixels
Yes. It should work.
since when do you connect both positive and ground together from 2 power supplies ? no one ever does it , it will cause issues with the power supplies , anyone who connects lights and wants to power inject from a 2nd power supply must cut the + wire at some point so the 2 +'s are not connected together
Thanks for you comment. These power supplies are commercialized as to be redundant/parallel safe. Everyone should check their to make sure this is safe to do. Thanks for watching.
Ok. Confused here. I've read thar power supplies should not be used in a series circuit. Please help me understand this confusion. Thanks again for all your videos and help
Hey John. For a show we never connect power supplies in series, we do parallel connections. A Series connection would be conection a positive with a negative to increase the voltage. This is a no, no. I have used power injection coming from two different power supplies with no issues for years.
@@trevilights
Thank you. I think I ment parallel. See. I'm confused lol
@@johnnagy1575 lol. Don't worry. If you decide to use multiple power supplies like I do, just make sure you have a fuse on every positive wire as it comes out of the power supply.
if using a power supply not connected to the controller for power injection, you must use inline 5-watt fuses.
Hi Frank. I think you mean 5 Amp fuses. But yes, you are correct. It also depends on the gauge of the wire you are using. I use 18awg wire that are powering more that element, so I use 10amp fuses. I use the following board for my power injections.
www.amazon.com/Electronics-Salon-Panel-Position-Distribution-Module/dp/B01FCW7T0E/ref=sr_1_21?crid=13KEK9H5TUH0Z&keywords=fuse+board&qid=1677779239&sprefix=fuse+boar%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-21
Here is a short video to give an idea.
ruclips.net/video/zvxYS3GRb-Q/видео.html
Power injecting, and how to then manage the associated fuses is always a complicated issue.
I’m definitely no expert, but as I understand it, most power supplies don't cooperate well with each other when their positives are connected together, which can then make the pixels flicker.
Another reason Power Supplies aren’t usually connected together, is so that we can then choose how to divide up the current between multiple power supplies and fuses.
If you have power coming from your Controller (with a 5 Amp fuse) and then inject more power at another point (even if this power Injection also has a 5 Amp fuse), then you’ve doubled the fuse value. So, wouldn’t this practice put the circuit and the pixels at risk?
I’d be really interested to know how you control the overall current and fuses for your show.
Hi Giles. thank you very much for your comment. I totally agree with you on the complexity of the topic. Remember that the fuses are place to protect the wire from overheating not the pixels. Since you are only the controllers port at the beginning of the string and because of the pixels specs the current will never exceed 5amps. For my secondary power supply I used 10amp fuses for every power supply positive output (which commonly there are 3) since I am using them to inject a two point of any string, and using 18awg which is rated for 10amps. I always use a voltmeter with a clamp to make sure I am not exceeding any limits on the wire I am using. Also the brightness at we run our show plays a huge role. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching.
A proper power injection terminates 12v between power supplies. I skimmed the video but I would imagine this to be a non issue if done correctly. These power supplies aren’t designed to run in parallel in some cases.
I'm a new guy on the scene (so if I say something stupid please feel free to get a good laugh) but wouldn't it be obvious to the makers of these power supplies to build something like that already into the PCB??? And in my ignorance I would assume that due to the inherent complexities of these switch mode injectors that they would also Inherently have multiple diodes already scattered naturally throughout the PCB because diodes are one of the few components that actually make up a pcb, there's hundreds of parts total on board but there's only like 20 to 30 components that make up a board, they are just used in recession and repededly, (sorry if my terminology is off a bit but yous are getting what I mean, I'm so new to the tech side of electronics that I'm still having fun tearing down discarded flat screen tvs and playing with the LEDs in them,
I do have a huge purposel and or a ponderabce but I've noticed that the LEDs in tvs are a challenge to light using a diy controller, I kept burning them up or just flat out under powering them and ur video helped me cement the conclusion I've come to from piecing different pieces of info together over a lifetime and thanks to ur vid I have the simplest answer to my dilemma, your lights are wired in parrellel according to your wiring diagram, the voltage is constant but the amperage must increase with the amount of lights, tv LED controllers output 120ish volts if you test in DC or 230ish if you test in AC mode on ur 10 dollar amazon multimeter. And the LEDs strips seem to be Daisy chained if you undone the wiring harness, But the wires are super thin which tells me the amperage is probably super low, I'm concluding that the tv LEDs run on a total higher voltage depending on number of LEDs and the amperage stays the same or relatively constant, which if that is the case then that kinda sounds like a simpler PCB to make,, HERE is the climax of the preponderance I'm purposing, could you run your LEDs in series instead of parrellel and let the LEDs be all the diodes you need to prevent reverse current and just make a simple PCB to run directly on AC without the need for AC to DC power conversion, I know power supplies can be more unstable that way but we cod even throw in a few beefy Caps to maintain a steady voltage but make several different Daisy chained lights wired in parrellel and keep the voltage high but constant and just raise the amps as you parrellel more and more Daisy chains in???? That's like a hybrid parrellel/series circuit we're talking about and it's sounds relatively simple, maybe some good ol arithmetic might come in handy but IDK, thoughts from you guys??? I tried my best to sound edumakated. 🤓
After reading your comment multiple times, and having some tears rolling down my face, I have to agree on the use of diode on the PCB. I am not by anyway close to you on electronics knowledge, but I am sure the controller will highly improve with a small overhauling. I must say I love your enthusiasm and dedication to improving electronic components.
If anyone is nerdy enough and loosery enough to read this entire thing and also lame enough to pleasure me with an intellectual response then "You're my boy blue!!!" We can be friends cuz I love a 2
@@trevilights NGL it took a lot to keep that comment that short, lol, I have no idea what level you are on with electronics, only seen this vid, I can't wait to check out more of ur content. I'm still in my infancy here, with PCBs I'm still learning to stack blocks, but driven by that classic greenhorn electronics hobbyists enthusiasm, I mean I just learned last week what a BMS was, and that's what I've been tearing off these lithium battery packs the last year from these lithium battery packs, hahahaha jokes on me. I've been saving all kinds of battery packs and salvaging the lithium 18650 cells and separating the weird unknown funky PCB that's tack welded to every lithium battery pack, I've been tactfully removing the boards for later use till I understood how to utilize them and low and behold they were the answer to my quest to making a 40 volt diy battery pack, everyone is completely reusable and ready to pop back on an individual pack of cells. Now how to find a way to orchestrate them and get them to work in unison and still be able to cross circuits and be used in series when in use because my selection of BMS are fairly diverse, there's a 12 volt bms, 18, 24, 20. And I have a few bms for the 12 volt and 24 volt SLA batteries for like 200 watt scooters or something, so I got players on the board and which player and I pair up with who??? I got a motley crew of 18650s all mismatched like a rag tag gang, like the Tampa Buccs in 78, or 82 or any and every year before 99. Lol but that's where I'm at. I don't even know what to do with an occiliscope yet, I kinda understand why it's important and what it helps you dial in but, I'm certainly gonna know one day soon cuz I've been enthusiastic
@@charliefitzgerald1905 I have a Growatt 3000 24v inverter powering my home with two 24v 100ah Lifepo4 (8×3.2v cells) using 100ah BMS. I am still in the learning and testing phase.
Cool 😎 can you do valentine’s Day light show in February
Hi there. I wish I had the time and elements to do so. Thanks for watching.
11.19.2022 this is not an issue because you CAN'T BUY A single of any brand controller kit from anyone , so it seems. Must be a huge Chinese supply side issue going on.
You are right. If pixelcontroller.com they may have some ready to run controller. Their website stock might be out of sync. Another good option is kulplights.com check their website.
8:50 and the diode instead of cutting is about the only real highlight...