I've tried going down that route but most of my music listening either takes place at work (with my PSIs and Headphones) or while living life!@@usefulrandom1855
Before upgrading your monitors, always make sure to have at least a basic acoustic treatment setup in place, with all First Reflection points covered and some bass trapping. After you room is sounding good, you can then invest more in speakers. A better sounding room will make your current monitors to sound better as well.
This just made me realize why many seasoned mix engineers mix at a low volume, but occasionally crank up the volume to see how it "Feels". What they're really doing is checking how the midrange sounds when the woofer is displaced; which is a valid thing to do since most people like listening to their favorite music loud.
I mix at a volume where my ears feel relaxed. Not to loud, not too low. And i test my mixes at barely audible levels to confirm that i can still hear all elements in the mix the way i intended. When i crank the volume i do it to find out what may sound harsh or could potentially hurt listening to. If it sounds great at these three volume levels the mix is done. I also do this loud test when mastering.
@@the_oc_brewpub_sound_guy3071 The human ear hears the best balance of frequencies at roughly 78 to 82 dB c-weighted. Our most sensitive range is from 500 Hz to 8 kHz, and we are less sensitive to frequencies above and below that range. Your ears and brain act like an EQ and roll-off the frequencies above and below that range. If you listen at many different loudness levels, your ear and brain are constantly adjusting and compensating. When mastering I usually listen at 68 to 72 dB range, which highlights certain parts of the spectrum, and then at 78-82 dB which allows the ear to detect more highs and lows. Get a cheap dB meter or a phone app and try it. Whether you mix or master, by sticking to just two loudness reference levels, you'll develop your critical hearing faster.
Mixing at a low level also helps take the acoustics of the room out of the equation more. Can be helpful in an untreated space so the signal doesn't interact with the room as much
Demonstrating the frequency ranges was really enlightening! Honestly, I’ve never heard any of those ranges isolated like that. The midrange really does a lot more of the heavy lifting than I realized.
That's why the mids sounded like a telephone. The system was designed to use only the important part of the frequency range needed for voice communications. No need to waste resources on a wide range.
The main drawback of two way systems is intermodulation, which is higher on wideband drivers. Using a dedicated midrange in a critical range between 1k and 4k reduces intermodulation where it matters and that's why this config works. Without the split between bass and midrange, the distortion of the midrange rises every time the speaker is reproducing bass at the same time. The displacement of voice coil from the magnetic center is very bad for linearity of higher frequencies. There are other things too but this is one that gets overlooked.
@@inthemix It's called amplitude modulation. The magnetic flux is the most concentrated in the center of the gap. As the voice coil leaves the neutral position, the force acting on it gets weaker. This happens when a driver is playing it's bottom and top notes at the same time. When the moving coil goes in and out of the center at 30Hz, the upper tone has it's amplitude rise and fall at this frequency. We can't hear 30Hz amplitude modulation as AaAaAa, but we can hear loss of detail as it means the average amplitude of this high pitched sounds is lowered for the duration of low frequency sound, usually beat. It can make the vocals sound muffled. It also causes increase in harmonics, which make vocals sound coarse for some other reasons that are more technical and transducer-specific. There are ways to mitigate that but by far the best method I know is using narow bandwidth drivers in a multi-entry horn, which has all sorts of mechanics that cancel this effect. One way that you can mitigate this effect is highpassing your woofers right below Fs. Other is hornloading the tweeter so that it can be crossed over low. The problem with that is that we can hear crossover phase shift according to Finnish scientists so maybe going too low is not a good idea. This and of course tweeters have their own limits and their own intermodulation problems.
Some well designed, usually expensive woofers, greatly mitigate modulation effect from inductance and BL variation with displacement. It's also nice even for woofers in a three way system to have as symmetrical a motor system as possible. Because it may cross at 600Hz, you will still hear some of the rolled off sound maybe up to 1k, which is all still part of the midrange @@inthemix
I recently got the avantone mix cubes to isolate the mid range and i have to say i am astonished by how easy they make the process of finding out the weak spots in a mix. I really love those speakers and can safely recommend them to anyone who wants to clean up their mixes. However, i found myself overdoing the mid cleanup as consequence of my new setup, making my mix feel too clinical in the end. I am now trying to focus more on reference songs combined with reference speakers and i‘m convinced this will lead to a nice balance between a clean and a natural result. I find it funny how fixing one problem immediately leads to the next one. Guess that‘s a neverending process and part of being a human.
Having multiple sets of speakers for specific tasks is so helpful. Even if people don’t have Avantones, they can use an inexpensive small wired bookshelf speaker, with the bass and highs rolled off on an equalizer, and get much of the same benefit. I like Pioneer’s Andrew Jones-designed bookshelf speakers for this, they have great midrange detail, and cost $150 for a pair rather than $260 each. (Jones is an award winning speaker designer Pioneer hired to make the best possible design for small inexpensive speakers) I have an A/B/C system, with 2 pairs of powered studio monitors, and the Pioneers through a cheap home stereo w graphic EQ, which i’ll test both with lows-highs cut, but also flat, it is super helpful to hear mixes on a less-expensive system, it will often alert you if your sub content is going to pin or pump small consumer speakers.
doing exactly the same. It's always sobering to hear how crappy your "great" tune sounds on the cubes, but after this moment of truth I usually get much better results after making the mix more acceptable on the cubes
3 way is a fortuitous optimisation that moves the crossover out of the pinna activation region. Going to 4+ way re-introduces the issue again, with the exception of dealing with large monitors that have both a midwoofer and subwoofer for LF reinforcement
What a 3 way also does is massively reduce intermodulation distortion in the mids. Especially since the non-linear distrotions get a lot worse the more the speaker has to move, getting that away from the mids just helps so much. That goes doubly for passive speakers where the crossover puts a huge dent into the damping factor.
a dent in the frequency response more like? i thought damping factor is concerning how fast voltage stops like a sound’s release; it’s a spec on amplifiers. like controlled bass by way of voltage moving /ending movement per speaker transducer
I remember reading that the more holes in the speaker, the more source points for audio waves and thus the more waves interferences. So I always thought a 2-way speaker was in fact by default less worse than a 3-way speaker. The fact that engineers can design around that is amazing to me.
Interference is just a small part of it. Check out Klippel's research. It's a library full of knowledge on speaker distortion. It just doesn't end. IF you care about a point source that much, you can always get a horn.
Lots of good points but also a few too many generalisations. I’ve designed a few two way designs specifically for mixing and mastering duties and they have been accurate and just as insightful as any three way. I picked high efficiency low distortion designs using steep crossovers and coaxial drivers to ensure both time and phase alignment. Even vintage hpd315’s can be superbly revealing if used with a decent crossover and cabinet design. Crossed over at a khz means most of the sensitive 700hz to 5khz is handled by the horn loaded hf unit but the real issue with crossover designs is NOT that they somehow leave a gap or screw up detail at crossover. The issue is this: many audiophiles do understand the importance of time and phase alignment but fail to comprehend polar response as do many studio mixing engineers I’ve worked with. It’s not enough to get alignment right if you screw up polar response as this affects both directivity and stability of image and even phase response. This is where a 3 way can avoid the issue at the critical mid point BUT a well designed 2 way can do as good a job IF polar directivity is matched for the crossover point AND phase/time alignment is good plus sensitivities are matched. Whilst its true subs hugely improve system efficiency and can reduce distortion of two and 3 way systems, there’s no reason why with proper driver selection and cab design you cannot match or better a satellite system with sub. Subs have their own issues with room and driver integration. A good full range three way, using a good room correction like a Trinov system is the ideal but I wouldn’t rule out a two way either. There are compromises with all speaker systems which is why it is wrong really to generalise.
I always recommend having an A/B setup if it’s affordable. Even with inexpensive speakers, having 2 sets of speakers to switch between can be extremely helpful for triangulating. (Obviously you have to learn well any speakers you use, especially if they’re inexpensive.)
I used to do this too, although sometimes it was A/B/C when testing speakers for a few companies. It was enlightening to hear how differently the mix was portrayed on each system.
I have a pair of Kali three-way IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS-6.2 sub woofer, effectively a four-way system. It sounds great and gives me very precise monitoring set-up for my small garden mixing studio. The beauty of the WS-6.2 subwoofer is that it's actually two speakers in one cabinet, so effectively a stereo two-way sub in one box. Amazing! 😎
I have that same sub paired with some cheap adam audio t5v’s… def going to ditch them for 3-ways as I had previously some m audio m3-6’s that were wonderful but the amps stopped working… The adams are fine for movies but honestly not that impressive as all the hype online has made them… however for only $300 they’re not bad…
@@07wrxtr1I felt I was pushing the IN-5'S a bit too hard in my new mixing room so I've upgraded to a pair of Adams A8H's and it's definitely a step up. I'm still using the Kali sub but the Kali has a footswitch option that allows me to A/B with or without the sub. 😎
By no means I am an audiophile, I just enjoy listening to my favorite music and sometimes on a quality setup. However, your explanation was so good with no BS and descending tone that I instantly subscribed. Wish I could see more content from people like you👍
Heres the thing. Everyone says "i dont care about the speakers, i just want to connect to the music", but with genuine high quality speakers you connect with the music WAAAY MORE... Simple explanation? You can actually hear what note is being played. Literally that reason alone
love the breakdown on what the different parts of the speakers are for. its like i thought i know and u just gave me a complete tour through the rabbit hole basically
I got dynaudio Lyd 48s a couple years ago and found that I really don't need to do car tests anymore at all, where I did with my old 2 ways (Yamaha MSP7S). This did a great job of explaining why.
SO glad to found this video, as electronic eng. i always told that 3 way's had to be better for mixing so i made my own spikers and use them, but that irritates some people who claim that 2 way or even 1 way is perfect.
MY big issue with most studio monitors is indeed the crossover. They tend to have VERY high order units (i've seen 48db/oct) which smear time and phase HORRIBLY. A 3 way design, as noted, can have better mid range, but my experience is they generally are worse. This is due to the afore mentioned phase shifts or time delays caused by the high order crossovers as well as the additional crossover parts needed to build a 3 way network. Every single part, even a single capacitor, will alter to some degree, the sound. Nowhere in the recording chain, nor in the playback chain is the timing split between highs and lows, or the polarity, or both. This is purely a speaker phenomenon/distortion. The higher the order of the filter, the more time delays the speaker suffers. One can learn to recognize that, the way an amplifier designer can hear if someone's amplifier needs a bigger transformer- it's a unique sound distortion. What you call revealing is simply additional distortions introduced by the speakers crossover. This is why music which is very complex or has a lot going on will also sound less good on most studio monitors. With high order crossovers, the first energy to arrive from that step-input is upwards-going, as it should be. A moment later, the late-arriving, inverted-polarity tweeter shoves (sucks) that initial positive air-pressure-increase down into the negative-air-pressure portion of the graph. The tweeter's dome then returns to rest from its full "-" excursion, because the crossover cannot pass the "DC" to tell it to "hold your position, albeit sucked in". The air pressure then returns to the positive from the mid range tones' positive-pressure continuing to arrive. All the match fully supports my claim. I know you feel audiophiles are clueless. Not all of us are. My studio monitors are very simple 1st order designs, 3 way. VERY difficult to achieve in practice.
As a consumer, I added a 6.5" full-range to my JBL 4320 simply because the original design makes the horn tweeter irreparably louder than the 15" woofer, rendering the sound unbearably shouty and inaccurate, not to mention wasting the potential of the impeccable 15". To make the whole thing work, I switched to using my Pioneer D-23 electronic crossover, driving 3 separate amplifiers to feed the woofers, the squawkers that used to be a full-range, and the horn tweeters, crossed over at 100Hz, and 2k, Now I can distinguish messy commercial recordings due to the balanced 3-way spectrum 30Hz-15KH, just by paying attention to the squawkers. You are well-done!
I upgraded to the rokit g10's that have a 4 way system.. coming from Yamaha's hs8s, a classic dual driver setup... and man things became so clear! They aren't as harsh in the treble so perceived details were minimised theoretically but the separation added a clean and wide sound stage that made picking out issues so much easier. As a reference, I would play some mixing games on the soundgym website and immediately after getting my 4-way speakers my scores went way up in the eq and imaging department.
Man I've started producing from scratch 6 years ago and Michael has been my go to person since then and I've grown so much and know alot because of Michael.. thank you bro. Never let me down since day one. Your content is worth more than gold in music production.
Hi Michael, another great, informative video. By the way, I have owned your plugin "Reviver" for over a year and absolutely love it. It's one of my go to plugins for my Mix Buss 👍
Sorry but just stating that 3 way monitors are more revealing is the height of naivete - there is just way way more than that - I'd take bigger 2 ways any time over any 3 ways - especially with horn tweets and properly controlled directivity - these problems are easier to address with less drivers. If anything mangled directivity makes localization bad and impossible to fix, whilst response is very easy to correct, besides modern active speakers with DSP and active amplification manage this problem very well. You're bang on about subs - multisub setups work really well, and frankly the only way to fix the bottom - multiple modes, nulls, peaks can't be eqed out.
A three way system principally offers lower distortion from all drivers, particularly intermodulation distortion. Intermodulation distortion (modulation of one tone by another tone) is a huge part of why speakers sound like speakers and not real sound. When I have been able to work on three way speaker designs, they always sound clearer, more natural, and more transparent to the source. This is because when a woofer gets a strong signal and its cone experiences significant movement, that movement also modulates the magnetic field responsible for producing the midrange sound. You can hear this in action if you play a 20 Hz tone (at the threshold of audibility) while also playing a tone at 1kHz; the 1kHz tone will sound like it is warbling, and even very expensive mid-woofer speakers will do this. But this is also happening at other frequencies that are closer together, and it produces a 'jumbled' sound. When you can free a speaker from the job of producing lower frequencies that create a lot of this intermodulation distortion, it produces clearer sound. So you get a more transparent lens into the original performance. The problem with speakers that have many passbands is phase. The crossover filters produce phase rotation between the passbands of the crossover that has to be managed, because it is a delay in the sound, expressed as 'degrees' of a wavelength where one wavelength is 360 degrees. Crossover points work best when they are placed where the phase of the sound coming from a speaker overlaps with the phase of the same frequency coming from another speaker in the adjacent passband. Also, if passbands overlap with non-adjacent passbands and produce significant output, they produce strong off-axis directivity lobes because one speaker is interfering with a speaker that is farther away on the baffle. This is why concentric speakers are prized - because the system behaves with less phase alignment issues at off-axis angles, and produces a pattern of directivity that is always symmetrical.
Great video!!! I just upgraded from a 2 way pair + 10” Sub to a 3 way Focal pair. I got rid of the sub, and also had to add more an acoustic treatment for my room, all the investment was worthy.
Directivity is also a big reason why, with drivers starting to beam as they're pushed into higher frequencies. An 6" has really dropped off axis by 1500hz
1500hz is a wavelenght of 9" it doesnt start to beam before you have driver sizes above that, also driver size is including frame, not just cone. for example here is a 12" with a 1250hz crossover: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-bqv1bgFvQPE/TXDRNSrwrUI/AAAAAAAAF5Y/eVnCEZW3sQU/s1600/s15dsp%2Bnormalised.png
I am just researching the topic and funny enough, right after your video I stuck upon this article on amcoustics which explains Double Bass Array and why it works: It's quite easy to absorb such a flat wave front with the exact same loudspeaker array on the other end of the room. Remember that swing at the beginning of this article? How do you stop it? Exactly, when the kid is on your side you try to catch it, absorbing the kinetic and potential energy in the system. The same happens when some speaker cones move away from the wave front the moment the wave front arrives. Normally the wavefront would hit the wall, building up pressure and because of the fact that air wants to be homogenously distributed it would move back to release that pressure at the wall. But as the membrans of the second speaker array move away at that very moment the pressure can not be build up and the wave is not reflected. It's kind of sucked up by the speakers.
I lived with a Hi-Fi reviewer for many years. & yes the more crossovers you have the more points where you are not getting a clear response as the cost of less clarity. I use the test my mixes on a 70k system. It was a huge eye opener. I would take a 3 way over 2 way any day!! I use to love building a track on the big system. The sound design choices I would have made changed. The effect racks changed.. Now I have a tiny room & some old but I still love Dynaudio BM5a MK1s More than plenty for my current needs. But we’ll treated room that is harmonically corrected is amazing!
This was all very informative. But, it would be nice to know what is the reason that dedicated midrange drivers give better results. There is a lot of information out there but no definite answer: Things to consider are: 1. Human hearing is especially sensitive in 700 - 3000 Hz range, give or take a few Hertzes. Human voice is in this range, so this can be evolutionary trait. 2 -3 Khz range is important for directional perception. 2. Midrange driver does not have to reproduce low frequencies. Every octave lower we go, the driver excursion increases 4 fold. Lower excursion means lower distortion. And also, limited range limits the opportunity for intermodular distortion. 3. Driver diferences. In a two way LS drivers crossover in the sensitive area. If they are crossed higher than woofer might run into cone breakup, driver center to center spacing is to big, woofer may have excesive directivity and so on. 4. Are the crossovers to blame? Two drivers by themselves are not time aligned. In a vertical flush baffle their acoustical centers are not aligned. The drivers themselves have different phases at Xover frequency. The high pass and low pass filters have different phases. Could phase correct and time aligned digital filters solve this problem. 5. Midrange driver, be it cone or dome is smaller than a woofer. That means it is omnidirectional radiator and matches well with tweeter directivity wise. Woofer might not. In essence, what is te root of all evil?.
It's not just that. Big drivers have narrow directivity and in order to keep sweet spot wide, midrange driver is necessary. The bigger the cone, the lower off axis response starts to go down. But in terms of the topic of the video: Very well 2 way monitor with really good quality drivers and REALLY GOOD crossover job can be as revealing as a decent 3 way system. I've spent last 2 years designing such monitor system for myself
i do all of my mixing through headphones. although i know this probably isn't the best way, i don't believe my current equipment would lend itself to mixing any other way. i have thought about what sort of monitors i might get if i were to go that route. i would most likely go with a 3 way system after watching this. although i think it might be interesting to watch you do an in-depth on those monitors, i think you made it clear that it's a perfectly simple by-product of the crossover technology that is in play here. that's also what i appreciate most about your channel. you're not trying to sell us on gimmicks or tricks. you explain how things work and include when/why they would be desirable. i for one really appreciate it.
get yourself a pair of KRK Rokit 6s they are amazing starter speakers and last forever . They also lean to the warmer presentation so you can listen to all kinds of music and enjoy listening on them unlike sterile Genelecs and other monitors.
Well, my decission at this point was really easy: Years ago at the music trade fair in Germany I saw the most showmen with that yellow monitors on the dishes. So when starting do DJ'ing two years ago, I decided to buy the KRK RoKit Classic 5. The selling points for me were: Literally the word "classic" in the product's name, showing that this is something traditional industry-strandard over the years and the good product's description at Thomann... At this time, I had less knowledge about all that things, but not a bad decission at all and I love them. Usually, I don't like to bring it to gigs but for small birthday partys, small pubs they also fit well, even though they are near field monitors, but they have a lot of sound output and can be very loud which is impressive for that small / mid-sized speakers 🙂
Truths from a perspective of a recording engineer. Well done. Most speaker designers will choose the best mid-range with the flattest and widest frequency response then design the cross over points to suit it. The tweeters, mid bass / woofers do not matter as much... This is the evolution of the Linkwitz DIY speakers from Orion to the LX521.
The main thing most people get wrong is having enough room treatment . when the room is treated and the speakers are angled and at the right height they should sound like a giant detailed set of headphones - even the cheaper two way ones . For two way monitors its best to VERY well treat the room , and add a sub that takes over from 90 hz down ( and hi passes the two ways ) - then the two ways will provide cleaner midrange and transients . and the low end will fill out nicely . if you treat the room right you will be left with a few humps below 500 hz that you can eq out with a graphic eq before the monitors . also make sure you damp your desk or angle it steep , or you will get humps and dips around 600 - 800 hz and comb filtering up to 20 khz if you have space then making your room one end live one end dead ( where you speakers are ) is a good method . the dead end should be thick with treatment
I got 2-ways myself due to cost considerations. However, I'm pleasantly surprised as to how good the mid clarity is vs my older 1990s design monitors. I use Neumann KH120A with the KH750DSP sub. I've never had my mixes translate so well to many different systems, and yes, they don't make mixes sound good by default. Most mixes sound pretty poor on them, but a few mixes sound absolutely excellent. That's certainly the character of a good monitor system. Of course, I'd have gone for the KH310A instead if cost wasn't an issue. Good call about using 2 subwoofers. I currently use 1 (cost again).
I use Genelec with GLM plus a sub, but i check the midrange again on a small bluetooth speaker, to verify its working on a typical consumer device, its a cheap option, but for sure i would dive into barefoot or psi, if i had the money.
@@marcus268 Aye. I use a small JBL speaker (Flip 6) for the general in-studio, in-kitchen referencing. Most youngsters buy these speakers here in the UK. But yeah, 3-way PSIs for sure if I had the budget!
I add subwoofers to 3 way speakers to fix the lacking low end (most 3-way speakers their woofers are compromised to only handle mid-low well), and you basically get a 4-way solution. 😅
yeah.. the kali in5s are coaxial three way but have great bass capability. but yes subs are great to free up the woofers to not need to reproduce the lows as much, a major reason to use them. cheerz
It always depends on the design of the speaker; how good is FR, DI and distortion. There can be magnificent 2ways and atrocious 3ways. 3ways with the same sound quality level as 2ways are more expensive due bigger cabinet, more drivers and more amplifiers (XO parts), but will have probably wider frequency range and SPL capability.
I took a little different approach to connect my subwoofer - yes, I use only one, but the same would apply to a pair. My passive monitor controller has two separate stereo outputs that can be turned on and off. On the first I connected my 2-way monitors, on the second my subwoofer. So I can easily turn on/off both and listen how a mix translates to both of them. Of course on both the monitors and subwoofer the volume knobs are adjusted so I rarely touch them. Also the crossover frequency on the subwoofer is adjusted to match the monitors, even if they aren't connected there. And on both monitors the highpass filters are turned on.
You didn't talk at all about the imperfections of crossovers which was actually your main point- keep this out of the critical midrange. However in response to that more of them is worse in that you get more artifacts from them in more parts of the frequency spectrum. But you did cover the response to that, which is that drivers covering a wide range of frequencies well is impossible and so fewer equals more driver distortion.
I'd be interested to hear how you would set up a stereo subwoofer system for room listening. And would that setup work for multiple listeners, or just the center.
Is that why I have to lower the mid-range with an equalizer on all my audio equipment, because it's the most commonly ignored part during production? I have never owned a set of speakers or headphones where I didn't need to lower the mids by 1 or 2 dB.
I use vintage giant 3 ways monitors with dome midranges from 1970s. Since I make future bounce that use a lot of the midrange spectrum is very useful. I have 2 way i use with my 3 ways at the same time. when you did the comparison at 2:30 my two ways couldn't event detail the mids. while my old 3 ways were super accurate. But I agree, they show way too much issues. which is way use them with a stacked amp system to compare. I also use dual subwoofer! Thank you!
3 way is applicable for most great use cases. Eg 1 Car audio: sub woofer + amp + dedicated amp and drivers for mids + head unit for high end are much better than without the mids. Night and day. Eg 2 3-Way speakers from the 80s much better than 2-Way from the 70s. 2 way is great when pushing out high volume low quality stereo or mono reproductions since it masks defincies in the mix. The main purpose of mids is to flatten the frequency response in the middle of the spectrum where vocals, keys and snares live.
Excellent vid, thanks. I have the Focal Trio6 Speakers and yes, I have two subs!! That is so right on, best and most accurate bass for sure. Also, a key thing when I had my speakers installed, was that the acousticians were able to set the distance and timing when things hit the listening spot, using a DSP (after physical setting). This is super important if the subs are not the exact distance as the mains, or rear speakers are not exact distance as fronts. Interestingly, these Focals were not perfect; the tweeter was hitting early. However, it was so close they actually just tilted the speakers back a very tiny bit until the reading was good. Also, I wondered your opinion on the design of having a 5" woofer as the mid? The main woofer is 8". They also have a "Focus" mode to switch to just the 5" and tweeter. It's a major brain squeeze when you do it though, especially for bass and kicks!
Great demo between the different speaker types and the differences between 2-way and 3-way speakers. In some respects though, a single full range speaker without a whizzer cone is best since it's not likely to have any lobing, although it will have so many frequency response and other limitations that they're never actually used in hi-fi speakers.
That was invaluable information. So what you're essentially saying is that two way systems can obscure issues that will then jump out and bite you when you try the mix on a different system, but those issues will be much clear with a three way system? How about those cube style speakers the some people use? They have a single "full range" driver, but really they are mid range focused and don't produce as much top & bottom.
Oh gosh yes! Please do make a video on the PSI speakers, there's very little critical reviews on them, apart from everyone saying "they're the best" and then not qualifying the statement. Also why didn't you opt for the burgundy finish?
Firstly, while I like burgundy I just wasn’t feeling that they would be a good option for my space! While I tend to agree that PSI are “the best” the truth is that there are a few incredible systems out there utilising digital tech to achieve the best possible results. PSIs are fully analogue and really are the best in their class. Other options like the kii three take a much more digital approach but do so in a fantastic way and sound stunning. The danger zone is that mid ground where you can spend £2-5k on speakers that try to do a lot of things and don’t really get it all right all the time.
thanks, very useful video indeed, I'm considering a 3 way system for that exact reason, I need something unforgiving. I bought some genelecs 8030 six month ago along with the 7050 sub and I really like them a lot. I get a lot of details, the sound stage is vast, placement and distances for each instrument are very focused, very enjoyable. But I mean everything will sound nice out of these. Even a harsh mix, through emulated NS10s will sound sort of "ok" out of the 8030. Considering A8H, KH310 or SC3070 at the moment (for when I'll have the money ahahah)
This is common knowledge for an audio engineer/enthusiast. People who create music thought that they first listened to and enjoyed the music with some common technique but, in other words, I thought that this knowledge was taken for granted when trying to create music, but, the fact that he explained this shows that people who try to create music have not necessarily gone through the basics of "How to faithfully reproduce and enjoy music.''
I agree with you, though I have no experiences with studio monitors. For mixing and post processing, I use the Sony MDR-7506 Studio Headphones, which have a rather dominant enhancement of the mids instead of a nice flat frequency response. In that range, the most impurities occur, let alone the battle between bass and kick drum. So, for me that is perfect.
Interesting and makes sense. I use ADS SAT7 3-ways. They were not so forgiving at first, but using REW and Audyseey Multi-EQ to flatten them out a little it’s hard to find something that sounds bad.
I use to daisy chain Bluetooth speaker through the 3.5 mm jack specifically you can control the volume on each one, and once you balance everything, the image of the sound sticks out and you can have this amazing experience.
Every dynamic driver has mass and "compliance" and thus comprises a mechanical bandpass filter. Dividing the audio spectrum into more and narrower bands permits each driver to be better optimized for its target band. The downside is that adding more bands complicates crossover design exponentially, which is why I take the lazy way out by using DSP multiamping, giving me tons of control points to wring the best possible performance from each driver and best transition from one band to the next.
Back in 80's and before, 2-ways were considered the cheaper type speaker and the 3-ways were the better option - but that was before the dedicated sub! Once that sub became a necessity, then the 2-way became popular, and probably cheaper to produce.
I have my system set up with my main 3 ways on A, and a set of 2 way's on B. Can play either set and yeah I notice on some music the two- way sound more pleasing and other music my main speakers. I'd never thought about it from your perspective but geez.. it now makes more sense to me. I just thought it was the particular drivers and not the design limitations.. but it appears both !
In my experience, three way systems are primarily useful for cleaning up the mids while the woofer is busy doing bass things. It'll still depend a lot on implementation. If the mid woofer they chose doesn't have a wide enough frequency response then you'll still get woofer bleed into the mids. It CAN allow the speaker engineers to choose woofers with greater bass extension and tweeters with better treble extension and off-axis performance, etc. but this ISN'T guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.
Can relate to those mistakes 100% . Yesterday I opened a project I mixed before 6 years. I just could not believe how much plugins I placed on each track....😂😂😂 I mixed that song again in 2 hours with 70% less plugins and it sounded 70% better. 😂😂
Hi thank you so much for the really great and valuable video Speaking of 3 ways studio monitors i see that some come with a dome mid while other come with a cone mid Clearly a cone mid allows for a lower cross point with the woofer Some mids can work great from 200-300Hz up I see that you preferred a dome mid ? may i ask you why ? thank you vey much again Kind regards gino
those PSI monitors are amazing craftsmanship, they are perfectly matched pair from factory with analogue phase time alignment, so no dsp and latency weirdness
I built up a 'junk box special' basically a dipole with an oval driver that was never intended for HiFi, so quite poor bass wise, but heaps of midrange. I added a tweeter for some extra very top end, however it's quite good with revealing a lot of detail. I was surprised, so it's getting to hang around a lot longer than most of my junk box specials that only get me to shake my head and say 'No' The upshot, I definitely agree with the midrange bit. Otherwise I am using a pair of two ways with a sub, however WAY less detail, good for banging out tunes, not much else.
Getting my first pair of monitors very soon. Focal Alpha Twin Evos, which are technically 2.5 way. But they have dedicated low and mid woofers and a tweeter (of course!).
Seems sensible. I was taught how to set up my guitar tone years and years ago by not scooping the mids. Because as you say the guitar resides mostly in the mids and a guitar amp mostly only really reproduces mids well. Of course you can engineer even lower-fi guitar tones by scooping the mid range which can be agreeable in some situations.
There is a thing called intermodulation distortion. When you have 3 drivers each doing their on thing you get less intermodulation distortion this giving you a much more correct frequency response. I remember a teacher showing ups an example of a crossover unit. The sound difference between a 2 way and a 3 way line is HUGE. I understood at that point why concerts sound like concerts.
Very interesting, I purchased Adam A7X a while ago and added sonarworks and have treatment. Which interestingly was under your recommendation. I never regret it. Is it safe to say that they work well for mixing purposes? I mostly do production and tend to mix afterwards for my own but want to share my music in a near distant future.
Oh yes, a pair of A7X with some treatment and correction are going to be excellent for mixing. You might appreciate a subwoofer depending on the genre but the A7X are more than capable speakers. I used them right up until I bought the PSIs because it felt wrong to keep the Adams to myself when I wasn’t using them!
Thank you for explaining this in great detail, i have various speakers to test, hi fi , DJ monitors T-10 laptop computer with tweeters and others have them too & Karoke system, so what you’re saying is the bass should sound good 50hz - 60 - 100 hz , I do have portable speaker system with two sub bass’s, got me thinking test my track on this two, thanks you for your help
Hello. You say that a 2-way speaker + 2 subwoofers is better than a 3-way speaker. Isn't it the same, just that the subwoofers are not part of the same boxes? Or what is the beneficial difference? On the contrary, I would say that a more natural sound must sound from 3 bands because all the speakers are tuned to each other, while the subwoofers are not tuned due to the 2 bands, unless I buy a set.
Midrange driver allows for better directivity which is great as you don't want your signal to change when your off axis. Midrange is very beneficial especially that then woofer can have higher mass and play lower because of it.
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
The way you just said that audiophiles don't know a thing about audio at the beginning was amazing. LOL.
I would never say such a thing ;)
@@inthemix When you are just listening to music what do you use? Do you just listen on monitors or do you have a set for just listening?
Typically I use a portable bluetooth speaker from marshall, bose qc35ii, earbuds or my car speaker system@@usefulrandom1855
@@inthemix Oh that's pretty surprising haha I assumed you would at least have a proper stereo setup with amp etc!
I've tried going down that route but most of my music listening either takes place at work (with my PSIs and Headphones) or while living life!@@usefulrandom1855
Before upgrading your monitors, always make sure to have at least a basic acoustic treatment setup in place, with all First Reflection points covered and some bass trapping. After you room is sounding good, you can then invest more in speakers. A better sounding room will make your current monitors to sound better as well.
And lacking these pecuniary resources, check out today's wonderful open-back headphones.
This just made me realize why many seasoned mix engineers mix at a low volume, but occasionally crank up the volume to see how it "Feels".
What they're really doing is checking how the midrange sounds when the woofer is displaced; which is a valid thing to do since most people like listening to their favorite music loud.
I think you’re right.
I mix at a volume where my ears feel relaxed. Not to loud, not too low. And i test my mixes at barely audible levels to confirm that i can still hear all elements in the mix the way i intended. When i crank the volume i do it to find out what may sound harsh or could potentially hurt listening to. If it sounds great at these three volume levels the mix is done. I also do this loud test when mastering.
@@DJayFreeDoo I like your method quite a bit. I've used similar methods myself.
@@the_oc_brewpub_sound_guy3071 The human ear hears the best balance of frequencies at roughly 78 to 82 dB c-weighted. Our most sensitive range is from 500 Hz to 8 kHz, and we are less sensitive to frequencies above and below that range. Your ears and brain act like an EQ and roll-off the frequencies above and below that range. If you listen at many different loudness levels, your ear and brain are constantly adjusting and compensating. When mastering I usually listen at 68 to 72 dB range, which highlights certain parts of the spectrum, and then at 78-82 dB which allows the ear to detect more highs and lows. Get a cheap dB meter or a phone app and try it. Whether you mix or master, by sticking to just two loudness reference levels, you'll develop your critical hearing faster.
Mixing at a low level also helps take the acoustics of the room out of the equation more. Can be helpful in an untreated space so the signal doesn't interact with the room as much
Demonstrating the frequency ranges was really enlightening! Honestly, I’ve never heard any of those ranges isolated like that. The midrange really does a lot more of the heavy lifting than I realized.
That's why the mids sounded like a telephone. The system was designed to use only the important part of the frequency range needed for voice communications. No need to waste resources on a wide range.
The main drawback of two way systems is intermodulation, which is higher on wideband drivers. Using a dedicated midrange in a critical range between 1k and 4k reduces intermodulation where it matters and that's why this config works. Without the split between bass and midrange, the distortion of the midrange rises every time the speaker is reproducing bass at the same time. The displacement of voice coil from the magnetic center is very bad for linearity of higher frequencies. There are other things too but this is one that gets overlooked.
You’ve hit most of it on the head there I think. It’s that extra displacement of the woofer that throws off the mids (literally).
@@inthemix It's called amplitude modulation. The magnetic flux is the most concentrated in the center of the gap. As the voice coil leaves the neutral position, the force acting on it gets weaker. This happens when a driver is playing it's bottom and top notes at the same time. When the moving coil goes in and out of the center at 30Hz, the upper tone has it's amplitude rise and fall at this frequency. We can't hear 30Hz amplitude modulation as AaAaAa, but we can hear loss of detail as it means the average amplitude of this high pitched sounds is lowered for the duration of low frequency sound, usually beat. It can make the vocals sound muffled. It also causes increase in harmonics, which make vocals sound coarse for some other reasons that are more technical and transducer-specific.
There are ways to mitigate that but by far the best method I know is using narow bandwidth drivers in a multi-entry horn, which has all sorts of mechanics that cancel this effect.
One way that you can mitigate this effect is highpassing your woofers right below Fs. Other is hornloading the tweeter so that it can be crossed over low. The problem with that is that we can hear crossover phase shift according to Finnish scientists so maybe going too low is not a good idea. This and of course tweeters have their own limits and their own intermodulation problems.
@@rhalfik my dude you are a nerd. I mean that in the best way.
According to one audio company, phase shift is less audible below 1600Hz. So they cross over below that.@@rhalfik
Some well designed, usually expensive woofers, greatly mitigate modulation effect from inductance and BL variation with displacement. It's also nice even for woofers in a three way system to have as symmetrical a motor system as possible. Because it may cross at 600Hz, you will still hear some of the rolled off sound maybe up to 1k, which is all still part of the midrange @@inthemix
I recently got the avantone mix cubes to isolate the mid range and i have to say i am astonished by how easy they make the process of finding out the weak spots in a mix. I really love those speakers and can safely recommend them to anyone who wants to clean up their mixes. However, i found myself overdoing the mid cleanup as consequence of my new setup, making my mix feel too clinical in the end. I am now trying to focus more on reference songs combined with reference speakers and i‘m convinced this will lead to a nice balance between a clean and a natural result.
I find it funny how fixing one problem immediately leads to the next one. Guess that‘s a neverending process and part of being a human.
I bought a pair of the Auratone cubes this year and they are SO great for hearing what is 'sticking out' in the mix.
@@astrofreq absolutely!
Having multiple sets of speakers for specific tasks is so helpful. Even if people don’t have Avantones, they can use an inexpensive small wired bookshelf speaker, with the bass and highs rolled off on an equalizer, and get much of the same benefit. I like Pioneer’s Andrew Jones-designed bookshelf speakers for this, they have great midrange detail, and cost $150 for a pair rather than $260 each. (Jones is an award winning speaker designer Pioneer hired to make the best possible design for small inexpensive speakers) I have an A/B/C system, with 2 pairs of powered studio monitors, and the Pioneers through a cheap home stereo w graphic EQ, which i’ll test both with lows-highs cut, but also flat, it is super helpful to hear mixes on a less-expensive system, it will often alert you if your sub content is going to pin or pump small consumer speakers.
doing exactly the same. It's always sobering to hear how crappy your "great" tune sounds on the cubes, but after this moment of truth I usually get much better results after making the mix more acceptable on the cubes
@@sub-jec-tivthank I for this info bro 👊🏼🔊
3 way is a fortuitous optimisation that moves the crossover out of the pinna activation region. Going to 4+ way re-introduces the issue again, with the exception of dealing with large monitors that have both a midwoofer and subwoofer for LF reinforcement
That is a really good way of describing it.
Yes, with some rather expensive exceptions, Genelec 8381 and Barefoot Main Stack have this solved, are 4.5 and 5 way.
Please make the video about 2 subwoofers. Very interested!
What a 3 way also does is massively reduce intermodulation distortion in the mids. Especially since the non-linear distrotions get a lot worse the more the speaker has to move, getting that away from the mids just helps so much. That goes doubly for passive speakers where the crossover puts a huge dent into the damping factor.
a dent in the frequency response more like? i thought damping factor is concerning how fast voltage stops like a sound’s release; it’s a spec on amplifiers. like controlled bass by way of voltage moving /ending movement per speaker transducer
Thanks for keeping us informed Michael. Appreciate the video!
I remember reading that the more holes in the speaker, the more source points for audio waves and thus the more waves interferences. So I always thought a 2-way speaker was in fact by default less worse than a 3-way speaker. The fact that engineers can design around that is amazing to me.
Interference is just a small part of it. Check out Klippel's research. It's a library full of knowledge on speaker distortion. It just doesn't end. IF you care about a point source that much, you can always get a horn.
Coaxial three way is cool like Genelec speakers
@@Alepap. True, very precise, I do most of my work on those.
But I'll keep big classic 3 ways in the living room, cause they're more fun.
Lots of good points but also a few too many generalisations. I’ve designed a few two way designs specifically for mixing and mastering duties and they have been accurate and just as insightful as any three way. I picked high efficiency low distortion designs using steep crossovers and coaxial drivers to ensure both time and phase alignment. Even vintage hpd315’s can be superbly revealing if used with a decent crossover and cabinet design. Crossed over at a khz means most of the sensitive 700hz to 5khz is handled by the horn loaded hf unit but the real issue with crossover designs is NOT that they somehow leave a gap or screw up detail at crossover.
The issue is this: many audiophiles do understand the importance of time and phase alignment but fail to comprehend polar response as do many studio mixing engineers I’ve worked with.
It’s not enough to get alignment right if you screw up polar response as this affects both directivity and stability of image and even phase response. This is where a 3 way can avoid the issue at the critical mid point BUT a well designed 2 way can do as good a job IF polar directivity is matched for the crossover point AND phase/time alignment is good plus sensitivities are matched.
Whilst its true subs hugely improve system efficiency and can reduce distortion of two and 3 way systems, there’s no reason why with proper driver selection and cab design you cannot match or better a satellite system with sub. Subs have their own issues with room and driver integration.
A good full range three way, using a good room correction like a Trinov system is the ideal but I wouldn’t rule out a two way either. There are compromises with all speaker systems which is why it is wrong really to generalise.
I want you to know, and I mean this sincerely; as far as music production tutorials go, you are the GOAT.
I always recommend having an A/B setup if it’s affordable. Even with inexpensive speakers, having 2 sets of speakers to switch between can be extremely helpful for triangulating. (Obviously you have to learn well any speakers you use, especially if they’re inexpensive.)
I used to do this too, although sometimes it was A/B/C when testing speakers for a few companies. It was enlightening to hear how differently the mix was portrayed on each system.
using a/b class is too audiophile
I have a pair of Kali three-way IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS-6.2 sub woofer, effectively a four-way system. It sounds great and gives me very precise monitoring set-up for my small garden mixing studio. The beauty of the WS-6.2 subwoofer is that it's actually two speakers in one cabinet, so effectively a stereo two-way sub in one box. Amazing! 😎
I have that same sub paired with some cheap adam audio t5v’s… def going to ditch them for 3-ways as I had previously some m audio m3-6’s that were wonderful but the amps stopped working…
The adams are fine for movies but honestly not that impressive as all the hype online has made them… however for only $300 they’re not bad…
@@07wrxtr1I felt I was pushing the IN-5'S a bit too hard in my new mixing room so I've upgraded to a pair of Adams A8H's and it's definitely a step up. I'm still using the Kali sub but the Kali has a footswitch option that allows me to A/B with or without the sub. 😎
By no means I am an audiophile, I just enjoy listening to my favorite music and sometimes on a quality setup. However, your explanation was so good with no BS and descending tone that I instantly subscribed. Wish I could see more content from people like you👍
Heres the thing. Everyone says "i dont care about the speakers, i just want to connect to the music", but with genuine high quality speakers you connect with the music WAAAY MORE... Simple explanation? You can actually hear what note is being played. Literally that reason alone
@@niccster1061you can hear what note is being played on any speaker as long as it’s on. What you said at the end makes no sense.
love the breakdown on what the different parts of the speakers are for. its like i thought i know and u just gave me a complete tour through the rabbit hole basically
Gorgeous pair of A23Ms there 👌🏾
I got dynaudio Lyd 48s a couple years ago and found that I really don't need to do car tests anymore at all, where I did with my old 2 ways (Yamaha MSP7S). This did a great job of explaining why.
Great information. Congratulations on the 1 mil subscribers!!! Love this channel
Thanks so much!
SO glad to found this video, as electronic eng. i always told that 3 way's had to be better for mixing so i made my own spikers and use them, but that irritates some people who claim that 2 way or even 1 way is perfect.
MY big issue with most studio monitors is indeed the crossover. They tend to have VERY high order units (i've seen 48db/oct) which smear time and phase HORRIBLY.
A 3 way design, as noted, can have better mid range, but my experience is they generally are worse. This is due to the afore mentioned phase shifts or time delays caused by the high order crossovers as well as the additional crossover parts needed to build a 3 way network. Every single part, even a single capacitor, will alter to some degree, the sound. Nowhere in the recording chain, nor in the playback chain is the timing split between highs and lows, or the polarity, or both. This is purely a speaker phenomenon/distortion. The higher the order of the filter, the more time delays the speaker suffers. One can learn to recognize that, the way an amplifier designer can hear if someone's amplifier needs a bigger transformer- it's a unique sound distortion. What you call revealing is simply additional distortions introduced by the speakers crossover. This is why music which is very complex or has a lot going on will also sound less good on most studio monitors.
With high order crossovers, the first energy to arrive from that step-input is upwards-going, as it should be. A moment later, the late-arriving, inverted-polarity tweeter shoves (sucks) that initial positive air-pressure-increase down into the negative-air-pressure portion of the graph. The tweeter's dome then returns to rest from its full "-" excursion, because the crossover cannot pass the "DC" to tell it to "hold your position, albeit sucked in". The air pressure then returns to the positive from the mid range tones' positive-pressure continuing to arrive. All the match fully supports my claim.
I know you feel audiophiles are clueless. Not all of us are.
My studio monitors are very simple 1st order designs, 3 way. VERY difficult to achieve in practice.
Great guidance; thank you. The video on one vs two subwoofers would be really interesting.
Back in the 2000's I got my Genelecs 1030A, added a sub, and this is a killer neutral mixing and mastering setup. Plus room treatment, obviously.
That is a really nice setup there.
Genelec does elite work
I just got the VSX headphones and am SO excited for them. Thanks for this video!!!
The New Club indy is mind blowing. I hope you enjoy them as much as I do!
As a consumer, I added a 6.5" full-range to my JBL 4320 simply because the original design makes the horn tweeter irreparably louder than the 15" woofer, rendering the sound unbearably shouty and inaccurate, not to mention wasting the potential of the impeccable 15". To make the whole thing work, I switched to using my Pioneer D-23 electronic crossover, driving 3 separate amplifiers to feed the woofers, the squawkers that used to be a full-range, and the horn tweeters, crossed over at 100Hz, and 2k,
Now I can distinguish messy commercial recordings due to the balanced 3-way spectrum 30Hz-15KH, just by paying attention to the squawkers.
You are well-done!
Your videos are a treasure trove. Thanks so much for the time and effort and for sharing your expert knowledge!
Hello relaxing cat.
I upgraded to the rokit g10's that have a 4 way system.. coming from Yamaha's hs8s, a classic dual driver setup... and man things became so clear! They aren't as harsh in the treble so perceived details were minimised theoretically but the separation added a clean and wide sound stage that made picking out issues so much easier. As a reference, I would play some mixing games on the soundgym website and immediately after getting my 4-way speakers my scores went way up in the eq and imaging department.
interesting!
lol, its Active 3-Way Studio Monitor, not 4-way.
Man I've started producing from scratch 6 years ago and Michael has been my go to person since then and I've grown so much and know alot because of Michael.. thank you bro. Never let me down since day one. Your content is worth more than gold in music production.
Hi Michael, another great, informative video. By the way, I have owned your plugin "Reviver" for over a year and absolutely love it. It's one of my go to plugins for my Mix Buss 👍
Sorry but just stating that 3 way monitors are more revealing is the height of naivete - there is just way way more than that - I'd take bigger 2 ways any time over any 3 ways - especially with horn tweets and properly controlled directivity - these problems are easier to address with less drivers.
If anything mangled directivity makes localization bad and impossible to fix, whilst response is very easy to correct, besides modern active speakers with DSP and active amplification manage this problem very well.
You're bang on about subs - multisub setups work really well, and frankly the only way to fix the bottom - multiple modes, nulls, peaks can't be eqed out.
A three way system principally offers lower distortion from all drivers, particularly intermodulation distortion. Intermodulation distortion (modulation of one tone by another tone) is a huge part of why speakers sound like speakers and not real sound. When I have been able to work on three way speaker designs, they always sound clearer, more natural, and more transparent to the source. This is because when a woofer gets a strong signal and its cone experiences significant movement, that movement also modulates the magnetic field responsible for producing the midrange sound. You can hear this in action if you play a 20 Hz tone (at the threshold of audibility) while also playing a tone at 1kHz; the 1kHz tone will sound like it is warbling, and even very expensive mid-woofer speakers will do this. But this is also happening at other frequencies that are closer together, and it produces a 'jumbled' sound. When you can free a speaker from the job of producing lower frequencies that create a lot of this intermodulation distortion, it produces clearer sound. So you get a more transparent lens into the original performance. The problem with speakers that have many passbands is phase. The crossover filters produce phase rotation between the passbands of the crossover that has to be managed, because it is a delay in the sound, expressed as 'degrees' of a wavelength where one wavelength is 360 degrees. Crossover points work best when they are placed where the phase of the sound coming from a speaker overlaps with the phase of the same frequency coming from another speaker in the adjacent passband. Also, if passbands overlap with non-adjacent passbands and produce significant output, they produce strong off-axis directivity lobes because one speaker is interfering with a speaker that is farther away on the baffle. This is why concentric speakers are prized - because the system behaves with less phase alignment issues at off-axis angles, and produces a pattern of directivity that is always symmetrical.
Very well explained, I have the Adam Audio S3H and as you said these types of monitors are ‘UNFORGIVING’.
Great breakdown of the concept here. I would definitely like to see a review of those speakers, including your use case for them and why.
Thanks for the suggestion. If enough people ask, I'll make a video about them.
@inthemix Count me for the review vid! Maybe compare them to a pair of Klipsh cornerhorns?
@@inthemix Yeah!! It would be amazing to see a review of those PSI coming from you!
As always, nice vid btw.
@@inthemix Don't comment often, but +1 from me! I'd love to see a video about your speakers
Definitely also keen to see a three way monitor review. 😁
Great video!!! I just upgraded from a 2 way pair + 10” Sub to a 3 way Focal pair. I got rid of the sub, and also had to add more an acoustic treatment for my room, all the investment was worthy.
Directivity is also a big reason why, with drivers starting to beam as they're pushed into higher frequencies. An 6" has really dropped off axis by 1500hz
1500hz is a wavelenght of 9" it doesnt start to beam before you have driver sizes above that, also driver size is including frame, not just cone. for example here is a 12" with a 1250hz crossover:
4.bp.blogspot.com/-bqv1bgFvQPE/TXDRNSrwrUI/AAAAAAAAF5Y/eVnCEZW3sQU/s1600/s15dsp%2Bnormalised.png
I am just researching the topic and funny enough, right after your video I stuck upon this article on amcoustics which explains Double Bass Array and why it works:
It's quite easy to absorb such a flat wave front with the exact same loudspeaker array on the other end of the room. Remember that swing at the beginning of this article? How do you stop it? Exactly, when the kid is on your side you try to catch it, absorbing the kinetic and potential energy in the system. The same happens when some speaker cones move away from the wave front the moment the wave front arrives. Normally the wavefront would hit the wall, building up pressure and because of the fact that air wants to be homogenously distributed it would move back to release that pressure at the wall. But as the membrans of the second speaker array move away at that very moment the pressure can not be build up and the wave is not reflected. It's kind of sucked up by the speakers.
I lived with a Hi-Fi reviewer for many years.
& yes the more crossovers you have the more points where you are not getting a clear response as the cost of less clarity.
I use the test my mixes on a 70k system.
It was a huge eye opener.
I would take a 3 way over 2 way any day!!
I use to love building a track on the big system.
The sound design choices I would have made changed.
The effect racks changed..
Now I have a tiny room & some old but I still love Dynaudio BM5a MK1s
More than plenty for my current needs. But we’ll treated room that is harmonically corrected is amazing!
This was all very informative. But, it would be nice to know what is the reason that dedicated midrange drivers give better results. There is a lot of information out there but no definite answer: Things to consider are:
1. Human hearing is especially sensitive in 700 - 3000 Hz range, give or take a few Hertzes. Human voice is in this range, so this can be evolutionary trait. 2 -3 Khz range is important for directional perception.
2. Midrange driver does not have to reproduce low frequencies. Every octave lower we go, the driver excursion increases 4 fold. Lower excursion means lower distortion. And also, limited range limits the opportunity for intermodular distortion.
3. Driver diferences. In a two way LS drivers crossover in the sensitive area. If they are crossed higher than woofer might run into cone breakup, driver center to center spacing is to big, woofer may have excesive directivity and so on.
4. Are the crossovers to blame? Two drivers by themselves are not time aligned. In a vertical flush baffle their acoustical centers are not aligned. The drivers themselves have different phases at Xover frequency. The high pass and low pass filters have different phases. Could phase correct and time aligned digital filters solve this problem.
5. Midrange driver, be it cone or dome is smaller than a woofer. That means it is omnidirectional radiator and matches well with tweeter directivity wise. Woofer might not.
In essence, what is te root of all evil?.
It's not just that. Big drivers have narrow directivity and in order to keep sweet spot wide, midrange driver is necessary. The bigger the cone, the lower off axis response starts to go down. But in terms of the topic of the video: Very well 2 way monitor with really good quality drivers and REALLY GOOD crossover job can be as revealing as a decent 3 way system. I've spent last 2 years designing such monitor system for myself
Sorry my friend you have it completely wrong. Small drivers have narrow directivity, big drives are more omnidirectional.
@@nisios❌❌❌
i do all of my mixing through headphones. although i know this probably isn't the best way, i don't believe my current equipment would lend itself to mixing any other way.
i have thought about what sort of monitors i might get if i were to go that route. i would most likely go with a 3 way system after watching this.
although i think it might be interesting to watch you do an in-depth on those monitors, i think you made it clear that it's a perfectly simple by-product of the crossover technology that is in play here. that's also what i appreciate most about your channel. you're not trying to sell us on gimmicks or tricks. you explain how things work and include when/why they would be desirable. i for one really appreciate it.
get yourself a pair of KRK Rokit 6s they are amazing starter speakers and last forever . They also lean to the warmer presentation so you can listen to all kinds of music and enjoy listening on them unlike sterile Genelecs and other monitors.
@@JonnyParker-Kali audio also makes really good monitors
@@JonnyParker- thanks for the tip
Well, my decission at this point was really easy: Years ago at the music trade fair in Germany I saw the most showmen with that yellow monitors on the dishes. So when starting do DJ'ing two years ago, I decided to buy the KRK RoKit Classic 5. The selling points for me were: Literally the word "classic" in the product's name, showing that this is something traditional industry-strandard over the years and the good product's description at Thomann... At this time, I had less knowledge about all that things, but not a bad decission at all and I love them. Usually, I don't like to bring it to gigs but for small birthday partys, small pubs they also fit well, even though they are near field monitors, but they have a lot of sound output and can be very loud which is impressive for that small / mid-sized speakers 🙂
Not me happy to see Michael post a video😭... Thank you for the insight
Truths from a perspective of a recording engineer. Well done.
Most speaker designers will choose the best mid-range with the flattest and widest frequency response then design the cross over points to suit it. The tweeters, mid bass / woofers do not matter as much...
This is the evolution of the Linkwitz DIY speakers from Orion to the LX521.
Appreciate this brother I always learn something from your vids and im a huge fan of monitors! Happy holidays to you and your family 🔥🎯💯🚀
Recently got some Kali IN-5's, don't think I can go back to a 2-way again. Will keep those PSI's in mind when I upgrade down the road!
Michel as always you're one of the most trusted guys to talk about it, really helpful thanks for clarifying
The main thing most people get wrong is having enough room treatment . when the room is treated and the speakers are angled and at the right height
they should sound like a giant detailed set of headphones - even the cheaper two way ones . For two way monitors its best to VERY well treat the room , and add a sub that takes over from 90 hz down ( and hi passes the two ways ) - then the two ways will provide cleaner midrange and transients . and the low end will fill out nicely . if you treat the room right you will be left with a few humps below 500 hz that you can eq out with a graphic eq before the monitors . also make sure you damp your desk or angle it steep , or you will get humps and dips around 600 - 800 hz and comb filtering up to 20 khz
if you have space then making your room one end live one end dead ( where you speakers are ) is a good method . the dead end should be thick with treatment
I got 2-ways myself due to cost considerations. However, I'm pleasantly surprised as to how good the mid clarity is vs my older 1990s design monitors. I use Neumann KH120A with the KH750DSP sub. I've never had my mixes translate so well to many different systems, and yes, they don't make mixes sound good by default. Most mixes sound pretty poor on them, but a few mixes sound absolutely excellent. That's certainly the character of a good monitor system. Of course, I'd have gone for the KH310A instead if cost wasn't an issue. Good call about using 2 subwoofers. I currently use 1 (cost again).
I use Genelec with GLM plus a sub, but i check the midrange again on a small bluetooth speaker, to verify its working on a typical consumer device, its a cheap option, but for sure i would dive into barefoot or psi, if i had the money.
@@marcus268 Aye. I use a small JBL speaker (Flip 6) for the general in-studio, in-kitchen referencing. Most youngsters buy these speakers here in the UK. But yeah, 3-way PSIs for sure if I had the budget!
Very cut to the chase and to the point. Thank you.
Thank you for a clear, concise, no nonsense explanation :)
I add subwoofers to 3 way speakers to fix the lacking low end (most 3-way speakers their woofers are compromised to only handle mid-low well), and you basically get a 4-way solution. 😅
yeah.. the kali in5s are coaxial three way but have great bass capability. but yes subs are great to free up the woofers to not need to reproduce the lows as much, a major reason to use them. cheerz
Best explainer of technical stuff on the internet. Thanks Michael.
It always depends on the design of the speaker; how good is FR, DI and distortion. There can be magnificent 2ways and atrocious 3ways.
3ways with the same sound quality level as 2ways are more expensive due bigger cabinet, more drivers and more amplifiers (XO parts), but will have probably wider frequency range and SPL capability.
I took a little different approach to connect my subwoofer - yes, I use only one, but the same would apply to a pair. My passive monitor controller has two separate stereo outputs that can be turned on and off. On the first I connected my 2-way monitors, on the second my subwoofer. So I can easily turn on/off both and listen how a mix translates to both of them. Of course on both the monitors and subwoofer the volume knobs are adjusted so I rarely touch them. Also the crossover frequency on the subwoofer is adjusted to match the monitors, even if they aren't connected there. And on both monitors the highpass filters are turned on.
You didn't talk at all about the imperfections of crossovers which was actually your main point- keep this out of the critical midrange. However in response to that more of them is worse in that you get more artifacts from them in more parts of the frequency spectrum. But you did cover the response to that, which is that drivers covering a wide range of frequencies well is impossible and so fewer equals more driver distortion.
I'd be interested to hear how you would set up a stereo subwoofer system for room listening. And would that setup work for multiple listeners, or just the center.
The midrange is the most important part of a mix. Absolutely. For sure. This is why I love my Auratones.
Is that why I have to lower the mid-range with an equalizer on all my audio equipment, because it's the most commonly ignored part during production?
I have never owned a set of speakers or headphones where I didn't need to lower the mids by 1 or 2 dB.
I use vintage giant 3 ways monitors with dome midranges from 1970s. Since I make future bounce that use a lot of the midrange spectrum is very useful. I have 2 way i use with my 3 ways at the same time. when you did the comparison at 2:30 my two ways couldn't event detail the mids. while my old 3 ways were super accurate. But I agree, they show way too much issues. which is way use them with a stacked amp system to compare. I also use dual subwoofer! Thank you!
Think of bass and treble like your peripheral vision , the mids are what’s in focus when it comes to hearing , and in turn , listening
3 way is applicable for most great use cases. Eg 1 Car audio: sub woofer + amp + dedicated amp and drivers for mids + head unit for high end are much better than without the mids. Night and day. Eg 2 3-Way speakers from the 80s much better than 2-Way from the 70s. 2 way is great when pushing out high volume low quality stereo or mono reproductions since it masks defincies in the mix. The main purpose of mids is to flatten the frequency response in the middle of the spectrum where vocals, keys and snares live.
Excellent vid, thanks. I have the Focal Trio6 Speakers and yes, I have two subs!! That is so right on, best and most accurate bass for sure. Also, a key thing when I had my speakers installed, was that the acousticians were able to set the distance and timing when things hit the listening spot, using a DSP (after physical setting). This is super important if the subs are not the exact distance as the mains, or rear speakers are not exact distance as fronts. Interestingly, these Focals were not perfect; the tweeter was hitting early. However, it was so close they actually just tilted the speakers back a very tiny bit until the reading was good. Also, I wondered your opinion on the design of having a 5" woofer as the mid? The main woofer is 8". They also have a "Focus" mode to switch to just the 5" and tweeter. It's a major brain squeeze when you do it though, especially for bass and kicks!
PSI are incredible monitors. Had my A21Ms for several years now, love them to bits
Great demo between the different speaker types and the differences between 2-way and 3-way speakers. In some respects though, a single full range speaker without a whizzer cone is best since it's not likely to have any lobing, although it will have so many frequency response and other limitations that they're never actually used in hi-fi speakers.
That was invaluable information. So what you're essentially saying is that two way systems can obscure issues that will then jump out and bite you when you try the mix on a different system, but those issues will be much clear with a three way system?
How about those cube style speakers the some people use? They have a single "full range" driver, but really they are mid range focused and don't produce as much top & bottom.
That dual sub suggestion is very interesting!!
Oh gosh yes! Please do make a video on the PSI speakers, there's very little critical reviews on them, apart from everyone saying "they're the best" and then not qualifying the statement. Also why didn't you opt for the burgundy finish?
Firstly, while I like burgundy I just wasn’t feeling that they would be a good option for my space!
While I tend to agree that PSI are “the best” the truth is that there are a few incredible systems out there utilising digital tech to achieve the best possible results. PSIs are fully analogue and really are the best in their class.
Other options like the kii three take a much more digital approach but do so in a fantastic way and sound stunning.
The danger zone is that mid ground where you can spend £2-5k on speakers that try to do a lot of things and don’t really get it all right all the time.
thanks, very useful video indeed, I'm considering a 3 way system for that exact reason, I need something unforgiving. I bought some genelecs 8030 six month ago along with the 7050 sub and I really like them a lot. I get a lot of details, the sound stage is vast, placement and distances for each instrument are very focused, very enjoyable. But I mean everything will sound nice out of these. Even a harsh mix, through emulated NS10s will sound sort of "ok" out of the 8030. Considering A8H, KH310 or SC3070 at the moment (for when I'll have the money ahahah)
This is common knowledge for an audio engineer/enthusiast.
People who create music thought that they first listened to and enjoyed the music with some common technique but, in other words, I thought that this knowledge was taken for granted when trying to create music, but, the fact that he explained this shows that people who try to create music have not necessarily gone through the basics of "How to faithfully reproduce and enjoy music.''
I agree with you, though I have no experiences with studio monitors. For mixing and post processing, I use the Sony MDR-7506 Studio Headphones, which have a rather dominant enhancement of the mids instead of a nice flat frequency response. In that range, the most impurities occur, let alone the battle between bass and kick drum. So, for me that is perfect.
Interesting and makes sense. I use ADS SAT7 3-ways. They were not so forgiving at first, but using REW and Audyseey Multi-EQ to flatten them out a little it’s hard to find something that sounds bad.
I use to daisy chain Bluetooth speaker through the 3.5 mm jack specifically you can control the volume on each one, and once you balance everything, the image of the sound sticks out and you can have this amazing experience.
Every dynamic driver has mass and "compliance" and thus comprises a mechanical bandpass filter. Dividing the audio spectrum into more and narrower bands permits each driver to be better optimized for its target band. The downside is that adding more bands complicates crossover design exponentially, which is why I take the lazy way out by using DSP multiamping, giving me tons of control points to wring the best possible performance from each driver and best transition from one band to the next.
Back in 80's and before, 2-ways were considered the cheaper type speaker and the 3-ways were the better option - but that was before the dedicated sub! Once that sub became a necessity, then the 2-way became popular, and probably cheaper to produce.
Sub a necessity?
Great video! Always nice to learn something new here!
nice to see you're using PSI speakers, planning to get a pair haha
I have my system set up with my main 3 ways on A, and a set of 2 way's on B. Can play either set and yeah I notice on some music the two- way sound more pleasing and other music my main speakers. I'd never thought about it from your perspective but geez.. it now makes more sense to me. I just thought it was the particular drivers and not the design limitations.. but it appears both !
How about the dual concentric Tannoys they rock too. All about the mid like you say
In my experience, three way systems are primarily useful for cleaning up the mids while the woofer is busy doing bass things. It'll still depend a lot on implementation. If the mid woofer they chose doesn't have a wide enough frequency response then you'll still get woofer bleed into the mids. It CAN allow the speaker engineers to choose woofers with greater bass extension and tweeters with better treble extension and off-axis performance, etc. but this ISN'T guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.
Can relate to those mistakes 100% . Yesterday I opened a project I mixed before 6 years. I just could not believe how much plugins I placed on each track....😂😂😂 I mixed that song again in 2 hours with 70% less plugins and it sounded 70% better. 😂😂
Hi thank you so much for the really great and valuable video
Speaking of 3 ways studio monitors i see that some come with a dome mid while other come with a cone mid
Clearly a cone mid allows for a lower cross point with the woofer
Some mids can work great from 200-300Hz up
I see that you preferred a dome mid ? may i ask you why ?
thank you vey much again Kind regards gino
Fascinating stuff. I would love a video showing how good or bad the same sound treated room can sound based on the positioning of everything.
those PSI monitors are amazing craftsmanship, they are perfectly matched pair from factory with analogue phase time alignment, so no dsp and latency weirdness
Thank you! To rectify, we don't produce matched pairs but the whole series of a product which is matched ;-)
I like listening to your voice/chain. It’s like asmr
I built up a 'junk box special' basically a dipole with an oval driver that was never intended for HiFi, so quite poor bass wise, but heaps of midrange. I added a tweeter for some extra very top end, however it's quite good with revealing a lot of detail. I was surprised, so it's getting to hang around a lot longer than most of my junk box specials that only get me to shake my head and say 'No'
The upshot, I definitely agree with the midrange bit.
Otherwise I am using a pair of two ways with a sub, however WAY less detail, good for banging out tunes, not much else.
Getting my first pair of monitors very soon. Focal Alpha Twin Evos, which are technically 2.5 way. But they have dedicated low and mid woofers and a tweeter (of course!).
A very good explanation for people that need to know.
Seems sensible. I was taught how to set up my guitar tone years and years ago by not scooping the mids. Because as you say the guitar resides mostly in the mids and a guitar amp mostly only really reproduces mids well. Of course you can engineer even lower-fi guitar tones by scooping the mid range which can be agreeable in some situations.
Very effective plugin brother. I just tried it out. Super effective and clean sound!
Absolutely correct. Mid range produce good vocals.
FInally. I'm glad you're telling this. I'm saying this since like the 90s.
I'm interested in the 2 subs video. Will a sub and 2 way monitor not be so unflattering when producing?
There is a thing called intermodulation distortion. When you have 3 drivers each doing their on thing you get less intermodulation distortion this giving you a much more correct frequency response. I remember a teacher showing ups an example of a crossover unit. The sound difference between a 2 way and a 3 way line is HUGE. I understood at that point why concerts sound like concerts.
Very interesting, I purchased Adam A7X a while ago and added sonarworks and have treatment. Which interestingly was under your recommendation. I never regret it. Is it safe to say that they work well for mixing purposes? I mostly do production and tend to mix afterwards for my own but want to share my music in a near distant future.
Oh yes, a pair of A7X with some treatment and correction are going to be excellent for mixing. You might appreciate a subwoofer depending on the genre but the A7X are more than capable speakers.
I used them right up until I bought the PSIs because it felt wrong to keep the Adams to myself when I wasn’t using them!
Love your thorough review, can you do one on your Orange box speaker behind you?
Thank you for explaining this in great detail, i have various speakers to test, hi fi , DJ monitors T-10 laptop computer with tweeters and others have them too & Karoke system, so what you’re saying is the bass should sound good 50hz - 60 - 100 hz , I do have portable speaker system with two sub bass’s, got me thinking test my track on this two, thanks you for your help
Will check out your plug in dude 🙂 I appreciate that you never talk bullox
Hello. You say that a 2-way speaker + 2 subwoofers is better than a 3-way speaker. Isn't it the same, just that the subwoofers are not part of the same boxes? Or what is the beneficial difference? On the contrary, I would say that a more natural sound must sound from 3 bands because all the speakers are tuned to each other, while the subwoofers are not tuned due to the 2 bands, unless I buy a set.
Do the PSI review! I'm interested in buying them also ...
Midrange driver allows for better directivity which is great as you don't want your signal to change when your off axis. Midrange is very beneficial especially that then woofer can have higher mass and play lower because of it.