Is this the end of the .22 rimfire? - Fieldtester, episode 10
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- We have seen non-lead ammunition work in a range of fullbore rifles, but does it work in rimfires? Tim Pilbeam tries out lead-free bullets in .22s and .17HMR - and the results for the .22 are disastrous. Unless the ammunition industry can produce workable non-toxic bullets for rimfires, and if the creeping lead ban finds its way to small-calibre rifles, this could be the end of probably the world's most popular rifle calibre.
David Wright and Roy Lupton join Tim on the Fieldtester range, and this show covers whether or not you need expensive binos, how to choose a rifle calibre, plus the results of our Steel vs Barrels challenge: do 10,000 cartridges shot through a Yildiz Steel Sporter 12-bore damage its barrels?
Items in the show:
Non lead rimfire bullets - is this the end of the .22?
Fcha.nl/end-of-the-22
Tim tries out the following rounds:
Non-toxic Winchester 15.5gr,
Hornady 17gr V-MAX 17HMR lead-free
CCI 17gr CCI
26-grain Winchester Varmint LF in .22
24-grain RWS High Velocity Green in .22
10,000 steel eco shells vs new shotgun
Fcha.nl/steelvsbarrels
For more about the Yildiz shotgun, watch our film: Fcha.nl/yildiz-shotgun-spz-me...
For the Eley Eco Wad, visit bit.ly/eleyecowad
Thanks to Orston Shooting Ground www.orston.com and Rowland Watson
www.rowlandwatson.com
Budget binoculars vs secondhand Swaros and Zeiss
Fcha.nl/budgetbinos
Find secondhand binos on www.ebay.com - for Eyeskey, go to www.eyeskeyoptics.com/
Rifle calibres: where to start?
Fcha.nl/calibres-simplified/
For more from Dan, visit www.bracesofbristol.com/
For more from Fieldtester, visit Fcha.nl/fieldtester
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The more I read about this lead ban the more I realise just how much we have been let down by our leading shooting sports bodies and it’s almost as though this lead ban has been/will be brought in to speed up the removal of legitimate ownership of all firearms, particularly rifles.
You are quite correct with almost all your assertions, although from a NZ perspective I would add that the discord among shooters here is making it far easier for the anti-gun loopies to push through their abusive agenda. It's painful to watch - like an old Hindenberg video.
However you have missed two very important points. 1) Without exception, the governments involved in disarmament programmes all intend to retain legitimate ownership of their own guns for military use and most for police use. Both these entities of course require guns, and for one sole purpose, to control and/ or to shoot humans.
It is ironic to me that as the world becomes more overcrowded and politicians become more corrupt, the public get more and more receptive to more and more govt-owned weaponry.
2) I wouldn't imagine the govts mentioned above would ever dream of ceasing to use lead ammunition, unless a more deadly alternative becomes viable, and it won't matter how toxic it is. I wonder what Joe Public thinks about that.
One other thing I've recently noticed is the growing proliferation of 'woke', 'virtue-signalling' investing by fund managers etc who proudly advertise their policy of no investing in manufacturers of civilian (specifically civilian) firearms. By inference they have no problems investing in people making stuff to kill people?
Yes Lead is just a lobbying tool for the antis and Greens.I’ve eaten an enormous amount of lead shot Game and I’m still here!Has anyone of those antis mentioned the health risks of Lithium batteries used in almost all electronic equipment and of course “Green” electric cars!!🧐🤔🤨
Exactly, I mean seriously what are the stastics of people suffering from lead poisoning these days? It's no different than the USA putting sanctions on Russian imported ammo currently, they say it's about punishing Russia but why did they lift other sanctions to apply this one? 40% of our ammo here comes from russia. It's back door gun control...
At least in the larger calibers there are ways to make proper lead free rounds that will work. As for the smaller caliber .22 it was never designed to be changed and the air gun sector which has developed beyond belief in the last few years will really be back to square one
Also how much you have been let down by fellow countrymen who voted for all these tyrants that put this BS in place. We are fighting our own inept morons here in the US as well. We may have to hit the reset button again here before long and deal with today's new Redcoats as we did a couple hundred years ago.
You are allowed to say the non lead bullets are shit
Shit but not THE shit.
Their English.
@@jameshaury2716 They are...
Gave up .22 for .17 . Spent a winter with NV on rabbits. Way too loud . I’ve changed back to .22 . Can’t be beaten IMO for all round sub 100m night shooting
I can understand wanting to ban lead in shotguns, especially around wetlands for wildfowling, but rimfire ammo makes no sense IMO.
I agree 100% the amount of lead in the ecosystem from shotguns most probably VASTLY out numbers the the amount left by rifles/air guns!
I learned alot on the old .22. From the farmer next door ,who after training gave me permission to borrow his Martini single shot for rabbit hunting. I was about 10>12 in the country. Ammo cheap then. Council used to reward pest controllers with ammo. Great days.
Very poor interview by the interviewer
Maybe the field tester should see how much lead is in the body of a head shot rabbit using 17HMR or .22 ? maybe none !
I bet Roy wouldn't be giving any to his birds. But I would like to see an xray of both .17hmr head shot and .22lr head shot and maybe even .223 head shot rabbit, there wont be much head left on the .223 rabbit but in some cases it is required.
The real problem is the unrecovered game where the other wildlife comes along and consumes the lead along with the animal. I don't think they're too worried about your game dying.
@@blackbirdpie217 yeah the lead gets into the food chain
This talk of non Lead is the start to getting rid of guns, full stop.
I can’t imagine the twist rates for thousands of LR’s will suit any light weight bullet and there’s no room in side the small cambers to change this unless some exotic metals are used which will then make it expensive. So thousands and thousands of .22LR will become pretty useless. This is a disaster for shooting with a serious lack of evidence for the reasons why.
Grow up. It’s nothing to do with the left. It’s the conservatives who are progressing this case you hadn’t noticed.
@@peteconrad2077 obviously a Labour voter, conservatives are so far left nowadays is there any difference
@@peteconrad2077 grow up, how about bloody wake up.
@@DARRELLGRIFFITHS so how is labour progressing Do know that we’ve had a Tory government fir the last decade so maybe you can tell us how it’s the lefties bringing in the ban. Or does your intelligence only extend to making infantile observations about how someone votes?
@@peteconrad2077 if you can’t see the way the world has gone over the last 20 years then maybe you need to revaluate your own intelligence, that will have to do as some of us have to work for a living.
PB free ammo is to fast to the twist rate of the barrel. You have two options, either increase the twist rate so it spins faster making the projectile more stable or slow down the velocity of the projectile. What we all need to consider with PB free ammo is ft/lb down range, having tested this over a chronograph you will be shocked and find yourself asking " is there enough energy to kill what i am shooting at humanely"
Doubt twist rate is the problem, 16 is not more then what a hornet has and it shoots bullets twice as fast if not more.
It probably has to do with powders and materials in the bullets. Rimfire is soft (or relatively) lead and it works well with the design of the rifling. But lead free is harder. There is a reason why WMR has copper jacketed bullets and a diffrent bore diameter then 22 LR.
Hornady ammunition is manufactured about 2 hours from my house..
the 17hmr was developed by them and is a wonderful cartridge out to 100yards in my CZ452, I personally haven't tried farther... wonderful show once again... cheers
The lead ban is a stealth gun ban hidden under an environmental blanket, pure and simple. The ban on lead ammo will be expanded from hunting to all usage in short order meaning that completely accidentally (honest), all air guns, antique shotguns, .22LR, muzzle loaders etc, will become impossible or prohibitively expensive to shoot. Oh, and for good measure, also completely unexpectedly, ranges will start to close as they are forced to do an expensive "environmental cleanup" of all the lead ammo already shot into the sand. You only have to look at the environmental wasteland that is Bisley to see how important this is(n't).
I agree, in the field and on the range (in the UK), I use almost entirely subsonic, through a moderator.
22 HV only gets used on the range, with semi auto's that need the recoil to cycle.
If I could only have one rifle, I would give up all my centre fire rifles and have a 22 rf,
Shotgun in my opinion, with the proper load they are good from small varmints to large dangerous game and can cover anything in between!
@@tylermallory2504 22lr for stealth.
shotgun can't do that.
22lr all the way.
You might want to consider modifying that idea, I think the toxic lead is on its way out. Just like cars with carburetors and big tube TV sets., and the 44 Henry cartridge. All once very common, but life goes on. Gotta find a way to adapt my friend, but don't shop shooting.
Good news on the Yildiz. I bought a pair of very nice 20 ga. Turkish guns a few years ago for my wife and I to shoot sporting clays. They are marked "Zenith Tedna Excellence" but probably made by Huglu or Yildiz. Zenith was the importer.
I paid under $500 each for them. We shoot only lead target loads, but lots of them, about 200 cartridges each every week. Both guns are in outstanding condition, and have functioned perfectly. Turkish guns have impressed me greatly. I own several O/Us and these are as good as any of the others which cost a lot more.
Great channel. Glad I live in the USA where the non-lead rimfire is not an issue.
Good show. .22 subs,! Right tool, right place and right time. Having controlled ‘bark’ chewing rabbits in apple orchards on farms around East Kent it is silent shots of the .22 subsonic round out of a moderated rifle that work best for me. Most of the farm houses were all sold back in the seventies around my area as less and less farm workers needed. Most were bought by people who were not country born.
So! the crack of any rifle like the.17 HMR or .22 WMR would alarm them unless you spent time visiting all before and also then you had to deal with those against any form of shooting.. I have all three of the above .22,.17HMR and .22WMR barrels in the form of a Sako Quad system. like I said , right tool, right place, right time. And lastly make sure every shot counts
I have no moderator on my .22lr. When it fires it sounds like someone stepped on a twig lol.
The steel shot is enclosed in a cup wad,
there was never going to be an issue!
Steel dosen't have the same compression rate as lead, that's where the problem comes from is when trying to "squeeze" the payload through the choke.
@@tylermallory2504 what choke ?
@@stonefly514 I was just speaking generaly, that the choke is typically the issue with steel vs lead. I wasn't talking about any shotgun or situation specifically. And don't forget just because a shotgun dosen't have removable chokes it doesn't mean their is necessarily no choke to the barrel...
@@tylermallory2504 Spot on
Spot on guys! Great show.
All the best.
Josh
Great video - I have a yildiz pro black and it’s great to see 10,000 go down a yildiz barrel to show the quality of these guns and put the gun snobs noses out of joint!!..Astonishing value for money and mine is absolutely stunning as well Rimfire wise I have both hmr and 22. Both are cz455’s. The hmr is my crow gun, (nicknamed the hooligan) the 22 is the rabbit gun. Very accurate with eley subs and fantastic around paddocks and stables as they are so quite!
Great show guys … really enjoy field-tester, great Craic around the table…😉👍
I have to disagree with the 17hmr round falling apart when hitting a blade of grass. That phrase is a common myth. I shot a squirrel which went through the squirrel, through an aluminium plate, and through the wooden side of the feeder at a 45 degree angle.
I 2nd that, zeroing with long grass infront of the paper shows one hole. Same with wind, I hear people say that 17hmr is more affected by wind then 22lr but have never found this to be true, but I am no ballistics genius.
@@jimbarbwe1985 I
I haven't noticed any different with wind except when shooting 200 yards+ but I never really take my .22 that far on game. But past that the 17 does get blown around pretty good.
Great show again well done guys keep them coming
I have both rimfires 22 and 17hmr. 22 is definitely my go to rifle. Ive shot a few thousand rounds through it but less than 300 through my hmr.
I'm now planning on using my hmr as a foxing rifle.
Absolutely, I agree entirely.
Don't use it on foxes beyond a hundred yards. Head shot only even at that distance. If you want to use a rimfire the 22 WMR in 50 grains is exceptional and it is the same price as the 17 HMR.
@@Primer595 I only head shoot anything. And I wouldn't shoot live quarry past 100 yards.
@@ruralpestcontrol Me too. I use a centrefire for foxes normally. The .22LR with 42 grain Winchester subs is good for 50 yards on foxes, but I would not use it beyond that distance. I have seen some terrible results on RUclips with people body shooting foxes with the very light 17 HMR. If they ban lead in rimfires I think the .22LR will be finished. Cheers!
@@Primer595 I've shot a few foxes with my 22 when I've been out shooting rabbits. All came in to around 40 yards. I only use Winchester subs 42s in it.
It's gonna be interesting to see what happens in the near future with both air rifle and rimfire rounds
That was brilliant, loved the lighthearted chats and good info and opinions.. Keep it up chaps.
Interesting video - I didn't even know about 'lead free' rimfire ammo before I saw this! What is the world coming to? The way I see it is that sporting shooters are simply supporting the removal of lead from more densely-inflicted parts of the world and distributing it far more widely and sparsely to a much wider landscape, thereby providing a free ecological service. Ah well.
Watching your reaction to the accuracy 'difference' you 'achieved' between lead and lead free made my day! It's refreshing to see that level of integrity and the humour.
I did wonder if you'd given the barrels a clean before trying the different ammunition? It occurred to me that may have made a difference.
Honestly, I'm just glad to see a UK Gun Chanel with more than 2k views.
One of my friends is still using his grandfathers Remington 5 mm rimfire. I can remember his grandfather down to the last 100 shots before he was able to get ammo 15 years ago. Then a few years ago another company started making it. I have shot 5 mm, 22 lr, 22 mag, and the 177 in riffles. The difference is how good the riffling is for each barrel. The 5mm, 22 mag and 177 are better than the 22LR at range. 50 m in they all preform the same. (my 22 LR barrel was made for completion at Lake Placid and way out preforms the others) Now I was using my fathers old single shot 22 LR JC Higgins (Sears brand made by Remington.) on a snowy day with fluffy snow and shot at gray squirrels with hollow point CCI mini mags. I was using the iron sights (my rifles scope fogged up) and was shot at a squirrel about 50 m away. I did not hear anything, looked at the rifle. for about a minute and the squirrel was still moving around feeding. Unloaded the round and it had fired, so pulled the bolt and looked through the back and the barrel was clear. Now reloaded and fired again. I repeated that more times and did not see a hit or any sound from the rifle. So I walked up the hill to where i was shooting at that squirrel, there were 4 laying in a pile. Got up to the cabin and shot on the range we set up and I could just barely hear the shots.
thats a good story hahaha. why was the rifle so quiet? is it the round is quiet, or does the rifle have a muzzle break that deflects the sound away?
@@kyle18934 It was just the fluffy snow falling almost killing all sound in the hemlock forest.
Thanks for a informative show! The test of binoculars missed a very important component, renovated quality binoculars! I sent a 30 year old Swarovski for renovation to the factory. 200 Euro and I got a perfect binoculars.
great show well done lads
Loved this, very informative and amusing.
Thanks so much! David
A good advert for Yeldiz 👍👍👍
I cant see lead free .22 lr being doable as subsonic, as to get the same 40g weight it therefore has to be longer. That will mean the rifling of current .22 lr's will be too slow to stabilise the longer lead free bullet.
I have and use both calibre's if we are lamping from a 4x4 circling a field then i use my .22 semi auto [SSHP] with a lamp on top .If i am shooting from a fixed position including a parked 4x4 [sniping] then i use the .17hmr . i personally have found that the sonic crack from the 17 appears to confuse rabbits and rather than have them run to ground they tend to stop and look about them and that's all it takes 1 seconds hesitation and their in the pot. I set up about 90/100 yds out and use my bins to spot then use the scope i have a CZ 452 American with a 16" moderated barrel the gun will shoot 1/2" groups all day long but you have to keep the barrel clean I took 97 coneys out of one field in an afternoon using this method. The farmer was impressed and very pleased. i have found if you shoot them under 75yards in the body it blows them up and you lose a lot of meat so its always a head shot under that distance. i have killed foxes out to 100 yds with head shots but prefer to keep it under this distance just a quick squeak to get them to stand still for about 1 1/2 second then its good night Vienna. my advice is buy the best scope you can afford 50 mm or above i normally shoot at 8X mag zeroed at 60 yds all my scopes cost more than the gun they are clamped to. The .17 shoots so flat its like shooting with a laser. I think you can tell i'm a fan REMBER KEEP IT CLEAN
Great to watch. 👍🏻
interesting accuracy results i suspect the "Green" rounds are going way too fast for the twist rate on the .22 and they just won't stabalise.
Quite possible. Then the lower mass in the "green" bullets will loose its velocity faster and reach sub sonic speed faster. This will make the bullit unstable and wobble.
@@kimnilsson110 plus it can’t stabilise in the first place as rifling and twist is designed for soft lead and 400+FPS slower so the alloy round will skip not spin. .22 twists at about 1:16 HMR is 1:9 as speed and hardness is more like HMR it doesn’t stand much chance in a standard barrel so everyone will have to rebarrel once the lovely green rounds become the norm
David you seemed to give the impression that the steel shot from a shotgun cartridge comes into contact with the barrel walls . Correct me if im wrong but this is not the case . This is why we dont have fibre wads in steel shells.
Its more to do with barrel pressures than actual steel abrasion.
Never heard anyone say "one-seven" and "two-two" before.. the English always seem to amaze.
Christopher !
Haha, me too.
Thought i was the only one, but then again i speak American English and was hesitant to speak up for fear of being referred to as a Yank. Hereabouts we still call Yanks by their old American full name...damnyank or damnyankies, and being called a yank would stick in my craw.
Twenty-two and seventeen flows off my tongue easier than two-two or one-seven.
But then again, i like my tea sweet .
(PS: In centerfire, oops... centrefire, i shoot the .280 Rem. I'd cringe to hear them say Two-Eight-Zero Rem.) ...
I agree with Roy about the bunnies. We are seeing more around us. On the .22 and the .17HMR, isn't the HMR not a bit like the 6.5 Creedmore? A trendy, must have calibre because "Dave" at the club has one.....
maybe the lead free stuff is just rubbish? just a thought,...
I would have thought that comparing the .17HMR against the .22WMR would have been better. They are both around the same price and have closer performance. I have both and although the HMR is susceptible to wind the 40gr WMR holds its trajectory far better in wind. I therefore use the HMR in the spring/summer months and the WMR in autumn/winter. I feel this would be a better comparison test. If of course its possible to source unleaded .22WMR ammo.
Great video as always chaps.....
The issue with lead free is obviously the weight. I mainly use a 25/30cal FAC Air rifle out to 250yds with deadly precision accuracy. 25cal I use between 32-50gr upto 110ftlb slugs, 30cal 44-70gr slugs upto 145ftlb. But I tried the JSB Lead free 25cal (no 30cal lead free) which are 16gr, which are total garbage. The accuracy was an absolute joke. It's all very well having lead free but it needs to keep the weight & precision. Great video
The two different Norma Eco 22LR rounds, Eco Power and Eco Speed works well in my 22. Both the solid Eco Speed and the fragmenting Eco Power version. Unfortunately the price is right now twice as high.
.22 WMR hands down💯🤷♂️. The 34 grain HP Winchester Supreme is very hard to beat. As far as noise…God bless the FAC PCP!💯🤷♂️ All the challenges but so much less noise!
Very Good, thank you.
The solution to using lead free bullets is relatively simple, but as previous commentators have said, it's a manufacturing issue. Use accelerated barrel twist rates. Current 22's Long Rifle cartridges were set up for lead back in 1887. Putting copper or other lighter metals in a 16" twist barrel is the same as putting petrol in your diesel. It just doesn't work, especially at subsonic velocities. Change (increase) your barrel twist to 1/12" and performance enters a whole new world ... it's working for centre fire. Sure, changing a barrel is at an additional cost, but do we stay in the game or give it away? I don't like losing lead projectiles either, but I doubt the choice will be mine to make for much longer.
Yildiz need to get their act together and have a bigger presence here in the US. They're darn good for the money and would get a lot of sportspeople who are on a budget away from the handful of shockingly bad shotguns we have available to us. Hell, I would buy one as a "brother in law gun".
It could be the end in Europe and the U.K for .22 rimfire., but unlikely to have as large an affect in some other parts of the world(U.S for instance) as lead free laws are not as strict. That said, even here(U.S.), the anti's are trying...so one never knows.
I also found the HV vs subsonic discussion interesting, as here in the U.S., almost no one uses subsonic outside of some competition shooting. I have a ruger 10-22 that will still take head shots on squirrels out to 75 yards with HV rounds(typically CCI mini-mags or stingers), it will hold a 1" or better group at those distances. Holds half inch groups with subsonics...but the added performance and flatter trajectory of the HV rounds for hunting makes it worth the slightly larger groups, at least to me.
I hunt with subsonics (squirrel) and so do many others. We tend to be the serious hunters, the folks who get one squirrel with one shot, and who get our limits. Unlike our UK cousins, we don't hunt from blinds and shoot greys off of a feeder, we stalk and still hunt in the eastern hardwood forests. Don Lewis wrote an article on squirrel hunting with target .22 rifles and target ammo for Gun Digest back in 1972, and I read this as a boy and was hooked. Today I'm using Winchester 52s, a Kimber 82, a Remington 541-s, etc., all very accurate .22 rifles, with subsonic target ammo (from my stock of RWS R50) and getting 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Any squirrel within 75 yards and sitting still is mine. Even without a suppressor, these rifles are quiet, not audible in the woods past 20 yards. With a suppressor, they are air rifle quiet.
I do have a CZ 452 American in .17 HMR, and a CZ 455 American with .22, .17 HMR, and .17 HM2 barrels all threaded for a suppressor. The .22 and .17 HMR barrels are accurate CZ factory barrels, the HM2 barrel is a Lilja. I'm going to play with it this fall as the ultimate squirrel rifle that makes hits out to and past 100 yards, but need to see how it groups. I also want to see how noisy it is with a suppressor... if it's too noisy it will become a starling and crow rifle and I'll keep to the .22s for squirrel.
I disagree with Tim’s comments on the 22 I’ve a Bergara and constantly shoot out to 200 yrd best 10 shot group 11/2” which is why there are 22 PRS comps you don’t see 17 Hmr comps if you spend the time with good ammo and do your ballistic drops it’s a very accurate little gun.
Your rite mark my anshutz 1416 just did a 0.75 inch 5 round group at 200yds in a fly comp shoot
I hope that they do get very good .22 lead free rounds and spot on, I do have two of the BRNO model 2 and I have one on the subsonic and one on the high verlosity plus yes I have used them on foxes but one no more than 50 yards and one no more than 70 yards. I am very impressed with the steel v barrels challenge. I have just started using night vision and yes I do still go laping with a little score add on light with philters.
just brilliant
Your experience matches my own testing with the lead-free .22LR here in the US (I have tried all of the US manufacturers, but had not seen the RWS). Outside of 25 yards or so, accuracy is consistently inconsistent. CCI even labeled their initial lead-free .22 as "short range", although they now have a higher velocity offering as well. It has been a while since I did much testing or writing about lead-free ammo, so I had hoped things may have changed.
I did find that the .17HMR lead-free was much better, generally... especially the CCI. Since I frequently shoot small game to eat, the frangible nature of the bullets is problematic, so it's head shot or no shot. I've pretty much moved to the air rifles now anyway.
Awesome video and great amount of info, thanks and regards to everyone and greetings from New Zealand.
And we think we've got problems here! Kiwis popping up all over the www at the moment. Hope you're managing the lockdown okay.
@@frigetoo9380 Trying hard to get through this unfortunate situation.Past two years we haven't had any overseas hunters and trout fishers, usually we do 30 or so trophy hunts a year.But that's all part of getting there.Life on this plant has changed a lot with this virus.Have a great day and best regards,, Tony.
with a lot of places beginning to require non lead I think 22LR is going to die a slow death for hunting purposes but will live on for target shooting. With solid copper bullets I think the 22WMR will become more popular again. there are a few options in WMR but the CCI TNT Green 30 grain solid copper with a velocity of 2050fps is a contender at twice the weight of a solid copper 17hmr option and not that much slower ... definitely packs a wallop.
Those lighter lead free bullets will likely need a faster twist rate in the rifling of the barrel to consistently stabilize the bullets for better accuracy.
.22LR and .17HMR are two totally different calibres and have different uses. 100 yards for a .22 is the top end and .17 is just getting started. I fire CCI suppressors which are very slow (970fps) and Winchester 17 grain HMRs at 2550fps.
.22 subs are cheap, quiet and damage meat less but they also have less effective range therefore making a clean kill less likely.
.17HMRs are flatter shooting, more accurate, and kill more easily, however they are noisy and more expensive to shoot.
Best option is to have one of each in the safe for different purposes.
The only other positive of .22LR is that in the UK we are allowed to shoot it through a semi auto. Even if we were allowed a .17HMR semi auto, it probably wouldn't cycle very well and any shots after the 1st one would be pointless as the quarry would have fled. We are however allowed a .22WMR in semi auto, not that I know of many available.
Shoot.22 subs (rabbits in the main) tried hp rounds but could not get my rifle close in terms of accuracy. Asked Ely couple of months ago about lead free, useful response, no information available... Keep bit up lads .
Never worried about noise. Winchester power point was the standard hv .22 i used on rabbits possums and goats. Then moved to .22 magnum, then .223. But also use 12g shotgun for all those. Not being quiet by that stage.
Using 243 i can go from 55/57 to 100/105 grains. That's my ideal caliber. I also shoot 22lr and 222rem
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
The 22LR standard twist rate does not suit the lead free bullets because they are only about 65% of the standard lead bullet weight.
Interesting. I use RWS High Velocity with my Voere bolt action @ 50 m and can cover that with a postage stamp. Never tried lead free but try to get a few when I shop for ammo next time ...
The reason why lead free. 22lr are HV ist because of the the light wight of the lead free material bullet. Subsonic would be preforming low on energy.
David don’t get it 22 subs are used because they are quite if you are going supersonic then you may as well go .17 and get better accuracy longer range and less risk of ricochet.
Never found the .17 to be dramatically effected by wind. Looks like non lead is crap but they just did not have the courage to say so.
Copper bullets need higher velocity to expand due to the hardness of the copper. They most likely will not expand like a lead sub sonic bullet. That’s why sub sonic non lead are likely not available.
Intrigued by people saying how little will cause a .17 to fragment, maybe a test for the future? Target behind different mediums and see how many fragments pass through?
I shoot a CZ-452 in .17HMR which is a tack driver using the Hornady V-Max ammunition w/ the 17gn bullets . I switched to the CCI with a 20gn bullet and it wouldn't stabilize. But I was looking for the non-lead ammunition and the CCI uses a 16gn bullet and it would stabilize and hold a decent group.
So, basically, because the lead free ammunition is typically lighter than it's lead counterpart, some rifles might like it better than the heaver lead ammunition, at least my CZ-452 does.
In the states I used CCi Magnum .22 rimfires.Always accurate no failer shots.but I had to tighten the revolver barrel a few times ! Great Quality CCI. You don't use 22 magnum very fast? !Be Blessed and Be Safe.PS I shot thousnds onto paper !
just been announced today that we ( Denmark) are banning all huntingammunition with lead. Leadshot has been banned since 1996 with no problems. Its been driven by us the hunters. Rimfire can be with lead. Still some work to do making leadfree just as good as normal.
My Grandfather use to hunt with a 22 short, rabbits and squirrel's and other small game , love my suppressed 22lr here in the states , thanks for the different outlook on the subject .Guessing you don't have the 17 Winchester super mag over there ? Its a real screamer .
maybe, just maybe the evidence free leadban is killing those calibers and not cartridge manufacturers. arent you part of those defending said lead ban?
Maybe its the twist rate. Lighter ammo ad different speed, probably gonna require a special barrel.
Always used bullets with lead in them copper plated or not but alternative fillings should be available in this day and age
Does the lead free ammo require a faster twist rate? I know with centerfires if you have 2 projectiles of the same weight the copper projectiles are longer then their jacketed lead projectiles.
I wonder if the barrels were cleaned before using different ammunition would change the results? It's been found in the airgun world that different pellets are made of different hardness's of lead which leave deposits in the barrel. These deposits can affect the performance of a different pellet and make it look bad, unless the barrel is cleaned. And back when I used 22 lr I never found any of the high velocity stuff to be as accurate as the subsonics in any of my rifles, and I used semi-auto and bolt actions.
How about some x-rays of shot rabbits .22 vs .17 hmr. It would be interesting to see the results.
I've used the CCI copper polymer .22 loads and , yes, they are loud compared with subsonics, but no worse than Mini Mags. There are a few You Tube tests which give an effective range of about 50m. and that makes sense as copper is only marginally denser than steel so will not carry as far as their lead based equivalents e.g. Mini Mags, Stingers. However as the copper polymer load is going like the clappers, within that effective range they should perform as well as said high velocity lead loads which are somewhat slower.
Maybe this is something to test down the track along with the performance of the various loads on impact. (Field Testers meets Myth Busters perhaps )
It's airguns we have to worry about when going lead free as all the alternatives so far haven't produced the goods.
They've all been lacking ballistically although to be fair I haven't tried the JSB/Predator offerings yet.
Totally agree, an airgun shooter myself and yes we should be worried. I have tried everything on the market and nothing compares to lead. All PB fee ammo is to fast and becomes unstable over 900 ftps. nothing under 2inch groups at 50 yrds.
I like the JSB GTO, I shoot a lot of .22 and some .25.
I'm not hunting so idk about the power, but they are accurate.
They may have to change the barrel twist rate for the high velocity/lighter non lead bullets.
22 subs must be a British thing. I do use subs in small semi rural blocks but in the country we have in NZ high velocity has the range and no issues with noise.
Pretty much the same in the US. I've seen subsonic used in semi-urban areas, but that's literally it....almost no one here uses it regularly for hunting. Indeed, anyplace a subsonic might actually be needed, one can just use an air rifle if it comes to that.
Firstly totally for lead free ammunition. There is plenty of strong science that shows the harm lead, even at low levels can do to you. Re the 22 rf lead free HV, other tests have demonstrated that at c 70 yds they start going through the sound barrier and accuracy falls off. At 50 yards they provide good accuracy. As said in the video there are lots of options out there, just not in this country yet.
Stop shooting, problem solved.
Can't even shoot rabbits with a .22 LR in my country, not allowed and 17 HMR is almost as expensive as 223, and I can reload 223 for nearly half of what a 17 HMR round costs.
Thankfully here in the states (colonies). The venerable .22 rimfire would be about the last thing to go extinct... 0~o
Not encouraging on the non lead front but I have to say but, there's a lot more risk with the. 17 than people think, I've had one ricochet, and if shooting into shallow ground, the bits of jacket have enough energy to bounce up after they've broken up and still have enough energy to embed themselves in vegetation nearby, they're not quite a sintered. 22-250 bullet 😉, I do have in mind to see how little or much material it would take to get a bullet to fragment to the point of being "safe"
Most rabbit hunting is 30 yd + air gun or shot gun range . 22 are quiet so ricache are more noticable.
Hmmm.... I only use subs in my .22...... so... if these are going to dissappear, it looks like I'll either need to learn how to hand load .22 and stock up for life on bullets now ... or... chuck the .22 on Guntrader and just use my hmr 🤔
So I understand from this that there is no reasonable lead-free equivalent of .22rf for rabbits and vermin. Can I suggest that you go to Bisley next and test some lead free ammunition with the smallbore, full bore and muzzleloading target shooters there?
In the U.S. the everyday casual hunter/plinker likely uses high velocity. With few outside of competition or supressed firearm crowd use subsonics (a much smaller group). The bulk boxes of 1260fps being for most casual people. Its quite the opposite mentality.
When you do accuracy testing....you can't just crossfeed ammo and get a real representation of its performance. Your mixing materials in the bore creating irregular bearing surface.
You should be shooting, cleaning the bore, then shooting for groups after the bore has settled in. I understand ammo is hard to get but that accuracy test is flawed.
In this video you say subsonics are cheap and hold up Center X. In the U.S. the subsonic ammo is more expensive. A brick of Center X is over $100...closer to $125 + shipping. Bulk pack bricks although not cheap are below $50. Ten or twelve years ago a bulk pack federal was $12.99 prior to this cyclical madness.
Super X is expensive. I’ve been using CCI standard for subs because it’s consistent, accurate, and cheap. Other good ones are aguila pistol match (sub) aguila 60gr SSS, aguila SS round nose, and federal 45gr SS. (There’s more but this is what I’ve found affordable and available in the PNW.
Basically. It's like the difference between the .177 Vs a .22 pellets.
.243 Winchester is going to be illegal with lead free bullets as the bullets are going to be less than 100 grain. 100 grain is presently the legal minimum for Red deer and probably Sika too. Minimum calibre is going to be .270 in my opinion.
A lead free is going to bounce like mad with such hard bullets. I suspect they are very hard on barrels built to shoot lead alloy. What do they cost? I bet it is a lot more. My lead free air rifle pellets are extortionately priced!
You guys don't really understand wave drag and the transonic problem do you? For those who want to know, if you fire a supersonic projectile, as it travels down range it will slow down until it reaches the transonic range in velocity. At that point it will encounter wave drag, which will form an asymmetric shock wave around it and throw it off course. What you are seeing in your testing is the results of a supersonic 22LR bullet going subsonic on it's way to the target with the expected results. The subsonic rounds you shot are much more accurate since they never were in the transonic velocity range, which is why you will only see subsonic 22LR used in competitions. Now a 17HMR is designed to stay supersonic a lot longer because of the (almost always) lighter bullet and higher initial velocity, but if you put the target out to around 150-160yards you will see the same drop in accuracy happening as the bullet transitions from super to sub sonic.
17 is violent on critters 😂👍🏻
High velocity .22 rimfire are useless much past 50 yards because they are slowing down and falling out of supersonic flight. When this happens they become unstable and accuracy is lost. You are better off with subsonic ammunition in a .22 rimfire.
Let me help you boys out. Both of these were developed in the US. It is not two two, or one seven. It is the twenty two long rifle, and the seventeen HMR. Please correct this.
😁
CCI produce a sub 1050 fps and 720 fps 22lr round made of copper at 39 and 40 gr respectively and they both run out of my cz amazing. I use the 1050s for rabbits and 720s for rats around the farm. They hardly ricochet at all as they fragment.
My take on .17hmr vs .22lr is cost vs application if I was to pick one it would be .22lr every time I own both of the above the .17HMR is king on crows the .22 wins every time the lack of noise and accuracy out trumps the .17 every time I've shot them side by side and the .22 is less wind sensitive too. The problem with HV .22 is when the bullet speed drops into transonic speed I'm sceptical of what non toxic .22lr expansion will be like I've found non toxic air rifle pellets to be very hard.
5mm Remington rimfire.. although not produced in the amount to get cost down.. and the bullet profile need to be VLD'd. for .22LR; Bismith-tin, zinc copper washed SS, but I doubt they will expand in a HP.
Hornady do a non lead bullet it’s a composite material 15.5g MTX I THINK
Greetings from Australia...interesting comparison between .17hmr and .22lr. Can you tell me how popular the .22wmr (.22 magnum) is in the UK? It's big here in Oz and is the typical comparison to the .17hmr rather than the .22lr.
On the lead free shotgun cartridges, has anyone had any experience of the Eley 20 bore "steel" shells and if so what? I am planning on using my Browning 20, which is proofed for steel, and wondering what the new Eley cartridges are like.
24 grams of utter duff steel shot in a bio wad should be ok for teal /wigeon/mallard on flight ponds/splashes at 30 yards.The lead shot debate is very much alive due to out right lies from anti,s.If game dealers only buy/sell non lead shot quarry Deer/Geese/Ducks/Pigeon you should expect more money off them to cover expensive ammo.
It's all a con
Most peculiar is that men are able to shoot lead at each other in the Ukraine, but not for sport target shooting where lead does not migrate onto farm or open land!
Yes , its almost like the globalists agenda to usher in an almost authoritarian communism globally don't want civilians owning guns ...... as Stalin , Mao , Pol Pot , Castro , Ceacescu , Kim Jong II etc would agree
I've used both on open windy ground and I can tell you the 17hmr bucks cross winds better. Its not what you expect but it is what it is. Granted not lead free. Stingers are in the "hyper" velocity class.
I have found the same with the 17hmr but everyone and there dog will say different, I like to think the "17hmr are bad with any wind" was made up by a RFD who over ordered on 22lr ammo and needed to sell them quick. It makes sense that a projectile with a smaller area for the wind to apply force on would move less then a projectile with a larger area. A bit like how sailing works.
@@jimbarbwe1985
It also spends less time in the air so wind can't act on it as long