Was Joel WRONG in The Last Of Us - (TLOU Ending Analysis)
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Was Joel WRONG in The Last Of Us - (TLOU Ending Analysis)
So in this video, we'll be discussing the the last of us ending and seeing if Joel did the wrong thing by saving Ellie from the Fireflies, keeping them away from finding the cure of the cordyceps infection.
As we discuss the topic of morality, integrity and seeing if Joel was selfish in keeping Ellie from the fireflies to finding the cure.
As we watch him make his decision by the end the last of us story and see if there was any kind of repercussions for his action and how this would affect their relationship for the upcoming the tlou 2.
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So did Joel make the RIGHtT decision by the end of TLOU game?
Yeah he did.... But i want to add something...
Joel could've told Ellie a deffernt story...
Y'know ... Like the place ( fire flies ) was attacked by the monsters and zombies and lickers ... Any other story that can be more convenient and real to believe .... !!
Mohib Isam but i would guess that ellie would continue to try find the fireflies in future though
@@joehealey848
Yeah... Maybe.... 🤔
I have a different view (guess the game producers want to make Joel looks selfish, but not sure if this is true). Anyway, my view is that maybe Ellie would die for nothing. You see how hard it is to make a vaccine, all the research work done at the lab in the University of Eastern Colorado with the monkeys. So I am sure that this cold have gone the same way and in the end they have no vaccine and no Ellie.
@@gilvanalves6023 That's a good point, they didn't know if it would work or not. That's what's great about the last of us, it made it see the different points of views and made us empathize with Joel even if may be contradicting others viewpoints.
If you really think about it, Fireflies made a deal with Joel to deliver Ellie and in exchange he will get a supply of weapons, but when he Delivered her they never held up their end of the deal, which Joel rightfully took back Ellie, so yes he did the right thing
What a businessman
AAAAAAAHHHHH I DON'T AGREE BUT THE ARGUMENT IT'S WAY TOO GOOD TO DISCUSS AAAAAAAHHHHH
Lol would of been so funny hearing Joel say “where are my guns??” Than caps Marlene lol
Everyone forgets this point which leans in Joel’s favor of the argument everyone just argues “saving one person vs saving the world”
@@JohnSmith-wh2ob It is also no guarantee their cure would work. Sure, maybe the strain she has would do the same to everyone else. Or maybe it is just a random genetic mutation or epigenetic factor specific to her.
Also also, gotta point out, they can obviously still make guns and explosives in universe. Now that humanity has managed to build stable places and already knows of the disease, in a verisimilar scenario, humanity got a set back but it is already ready to rebuild a larger civilization and just systematically eradicate those who turned, and create proper protocols to control any possible new outbreaks now that people have an understanding of it, and then it would only get better. Heck, now they know enough to not even need to take big risks. Just burn down infected areas and quarantine it for years just to be sure, spread some chemicals that make it toric for the fungus too if necessary. Starve the mutated strain into extinction, one thing humans are good at is fucking up environments and killing countless things, so out that for good use for once. Countless deaths should already be preventable in universe, in much more guaranteed ways.
It was a very human decision. We are all flawed.
I wish Naughty Dog actually bothered to continue the damn story instead of completely changing it to fulfill the "message" they wanted to tell.
bro he was right as he was smart enough to know if he will not do this this will become a big problem in future
Honestly if the fireflies didnt come across as a bunch of ignorant brutes in the end threatening to kill him for trying to perform CPR and wasnt a threat. Hell they didnt even wanna uphold the original deal despite how far he travelled to get to them. If you listen to some of Marlenes recorders she says that they wanted to kill him off the bat for no reason but she thought he might understand what they were after.
Very true, it makes you wonder if the fireflies did have the cure that would they help those who really need it or the ones who would just take advantage of the immunity. This is why the last of us is great due to all the grey areas of the story. anyway thank you for watching and commenting, I hope you enjoyed the video!!!
@@HeYDeVuH Fireflies see themselves as heros "saving the world" but heroes need numbers...theyre not going sacrifice opportunity in manpower and loyalty fighting the infection over selfish gains especially when they made more progress than the military..its the only generational route for the world to eradicate the virus
@@tsouth5510 Ellie's immunity occured naturally. They never even checked if the mutation could be passed on to children. The Fireflies were tyrannical morons.
To be honest how do we even know creating a cure is within their power really, they have only one source of a cure to use one mistake and boom it is good for good, and normally you need a lot of specimens and samples to produce a stable cure. Something i think the Fireflies are incapable of doing.
They came off as ignorant, overly aggressive bastards in the beginning of the game too. I even said when I started playing, 'why are these assholes so goddamn combative?' To be fair the military wasn't any better considering they shot a little girl in the freaking prologue.
If you watch the game theorists he made a whole video about Joel’s actions. Had the fireflies been smart about it they could have made a cure without killing Ellie, in fact, killing Ellie would be the worst possible thing for them to do. Joel saved her.
Ah I see your also a man of Knowledge
Based on MatPat's theory, i would say that the only vaccine is for Ellie to infect others. The fact that she already has cordycep cells in her body, technically she could infect others with her type of cordyceps. But that's just my opinion, could be wrong tho.
Is that really what the writers where going for though? If that was the case I don't think they would paint Joel's actions in Part 2 as wrong.
@@bjakeijzer Part 2, other than Druckmann, had different writers from what I recall. They weren't the same people, so that argument doesn't really apply.
@Vaggod1 any argument that you had had been ruined by your terrible grammar
I'm not trying to justify Joel's decision in the first game but his reaction was not irrational or unwarranted, Joel was selfish, but not evil. All I'm saying is the Fireflies brought this on themselves, they indirectly destroyed and undermined their chances of a vaccine/cure by completely mishandling the situation and all this could have been avoided if the fireflies weren't so damn stupid. A shame they don't expand on this on TLOU PART 2.
But hear me out:
- Fireflies kill civilians and military police in terrorist attacks
- They lose much of their encounters with military personnel, being pushed back across the other side of the country with their tails between their legs.
- TLOU 1 starts with the fireflies being almost exterminated.
- They fight for "freedom" by terrorizing the only remaining government-controlled quarantine zones (This denies any possibility of any possible power exchange to the populace) because the continuous terrorist attacks on safe zones mean weaker defenses from infected or other bandit activity. As a result, quarantine zones "liberated" by the Fireflies (like Pittsburgh) devolve into bandit kingdoms, with most of the remaining population dying from the infected or bandits (Hunters)
- The only FOB they manage to secure is the Hospital, while actively Stealing, hoarding, and trading stolen supplies from other quarantine zones despite being the "Liberators" and being responsible for taking care of them after replacing the military.
- Logistically they are much inferior than the WLF. This hinders the possibility of researching a vaccine effectively and mass-producing it. It's one thing to extract a specimen from Ellie's body, but what comes after is far more complicated than that. You need to test it so the vaccine doesn't end up producing more harm than good and you also need to mass-produce the vaccine. Both things we can assume the Fireflies were incompetent at. This includes all the previous attempts they did to no avail.
- Not only that, but the researchers in charge of finding a vaccine were also idiots too. One of them frees a bunch of monkeys that were being used to test some aspects of the cordyceps and produces an outbreak in the University and possibly it's surroundings, just because of pitty. Also, let's not ignore the fact that they try to make a VACCINE FOR A FUNGAL INFECTION, they exist but they're not needed since fungal infections are treated with ANTIFUNGAL MEDICATION. "Currently, there are no immunotherapeutics or vaccines approved for the treatment or prevention of fungal infections." - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208708/. I'm gonna attribute this to just being poor research on the subject by the writers, but these are still narrative inconsistencies that undermine the capacity for the Fireflies to make a vaccine or cure
Don't even get started on a cure, a cure means it would revert all of the effects on the already infected, so try curing a clicker or a bloater, not happening. Some will try to justify this by saying that this is a game and the world is fictional so maybe things work different and a vaccine or cure would've worked. The game highly relies on realism, and the only fictitious thing present is how the cordyceps can infect humans. So it's safe to assume that all the other aspects of how the world works are the same as in ours unless stated otherwise in the game.
Even after all this, we still have to acknowledge that there could still be a possibility for the Fireflies to make a vaccine/cure, however slim it may be. But this is the part where they really fucked up:
-They beat Joel unconscious while he is attempting to resuscitate Ellie (Two of the most important people for their cause)
- Fireflies decide to risk their only chance at a vaccine/treatment/cure by removing the specimen from Ellie while killing her in the process. No more tests, no more alternative procedure. Whatever they decided to do for achieving a vaccine (probably the most important thing in the world at the moment), they decided it in less than 24 hours...
- They keep Ellie unconscious and sedate her straight away to be prepped for surgery and get ready to kill a little girl for the possibility of a cure without her consent. Let the record show that THE FIREFLIES TOOK AWAY ELLIE'S POSSIBILITY OF A CHOICE BEFORE JOEL DID. (This being massive plot point of TLOU part II)
- Fireflies REFUSE TO GIVE BACK JOEL HIS GEAR BACK AND WALK HIM OUT AT GUNPOINT after understandably being agitated by the fact that they were taking and killing Ellie. They basically give Joel a death sentence for his trip back. His only reward after escorting the most valuable individual across the country was being allowed to leave without eating a bullet.
- Joel, and old man with a penchant for duct-taping trash together, proceeds to slaughter most of the personnel in the facility to save the only semblance of a daughter figure left for him in a god-forsaken country.
Was it selfish? Yeah. Unwarranted? Fuck no.
Not only that, with their track record the Fireflies would've probably just used the vaccine as a power-play by being the only handlers of the most valuable thing in the world (If they managed to pull it off).
In part 2, Naughty Dog tried too hard to paint Joel as the villain and failed.
All these previous points are never mentioned in Part 2 and they never make Joel justify his position or view on the matter effectively, trying to paint him more like a villain and make us feel that his decision was unwarranted and that the Fireflies were the good guys and saviors of humanity.
That was a long read, but my God that was worth it.
interesting takes but there are alot of misconceptions about the fireflies. when they say a vaccine they don't actually mean "Vaccine" in the strictest terms. the doctor explains that the reason ellie is immune is because her brand of cordeceps stops the spread of the infection in the brain his intentions was to replicate that condtion in other patients. it wasn't to make a vaccine or antifungal medication but to extract and produce the same cordeceps that ellie has which compared to making the latter is quite feasible.
also its true they didn't ask ellie consent before the procedure but the reality is they don't have to. even in todays law A minor doesn't have the right to consent to medical procedure anyway only her parent or guardian has that right which in this case is marlene not joel since marlene tasked tess who then tasked joel to smuggle her to the fireflies. and marlene gave the go ahead which puts the doctors in the right here.
it doesn't really matter anyway as ellie was willing to scarifice to begin with and joel saving and lying to her equally takes away her right to consent as well.
also no the were only tasked to escort him to the gate. fireflies were actually were going to pay joel with ton of weapons as they promised as well as transport but he couldn't be on the property for obvious reason.
Also even if it was a power-play it would only serve to galvanize people back into some semblance of order rather than the chaos that is happening right now. so its a positive all things considered.
@@daddyGbaby You made a good point that the Fireflies wanted to cultivate Ellie's fungus and not produce the actual vaccine.
Nonetheless, their plans are still careless and shortsighted as hell.
They claimed that the fungus is a mutated strain but how did they know it was mutated if they couldn't get a hand on its cell samples from the beginning.
I could be wrong but I don't remember they were discussing anything about Ellie's liquid test in general. Considering that Clickers can infect others by biting, they should have thoroughly studied her liquids and blood before doing anything radical.
Not to mention, what if the fungus actually becomes this benign protective strain because of an abnormal brain environment in Ellie's brain due to some rare genetic phenotypes. Then, they basically would have killed the sole incubator of the savior fungus.
Even if all worst of lucks considered and their only choice is to extract the fungus from her brain, wouldn't recruiting or waiting for a skillful surgeon who might be able to do the job without killing her is a safer way to do so.
Joel was indeed saving her because of his own fear and selfish love, but his side is still more reasonable (at least to me) than the Fireflies
DaddyGbaby I’m pretty sure no parent can legally elect to sacrifice their child’s life for anything. Deciding medical procedures is one thing, murder is another.
@DaddyGbaby I agree with you on the first point, I think that would be the logical way to approach things and achieve a countermeasure to the fungus. However, to my knowledge, they never explicitly mention that was the path they were taking since they only mention that she probably has a mutant strain and that they would have to grow it in labs for further study. Ellie essentially has a symbiotic relationship that protects her from being infected with the original strain of the cordyceps, so in the end, it wouldn't be the traditional antigenic immunity, hence why the doctors couldn't use blood samples, plasma or Ellie's antibodies to synthesize a cure. Which makes me question the procedure, since the obvious path is to study the case delicately and not decide the fate of humanity in less than a day. They could have first tested tissue samples from the mutated fungus by making a biopsy and not excising the whole specimen and killing Ellie in the process. Anyways, so far the only proof the game itself provides is that they're working on a vaccine, both Marlene and Jerry mention it as such. Though, as I said, I would attribute this to errors in research or the writers deliberately making the characters use incorrect terms so that it would be more digestible by the audience. So what you say might as well be right, though it still supports my point that the writing wasn't clear and gives way to some narrative inconsistencies that further undermine my belief of the fireflies being capable of pulling it off. Even if this was the case logistics, manpower and resources still need to be accounted for. But honestly, this would be a poor argument to justify Joel's actions, since a low chance is still a chance.
Regarding your point about Marlene being Ellie's guardian, I'm conflicted. I would tend to agree since Marlene was appointed to take care of her in the beginning, but not formally, so yeah technically Marlene IS Ellie's guardian. However, Joel could also be her guardian in virtue of the experiences they had together going across the country and the father-daughter bond they form throughout it. If we carry this situation to our world (only for context), Marlene and Joel would have to file a petition for guardianship to legally determine who will be Ellie's guardian, and one of the factors the court would take into account would be which one Ellie would PREFER (which again, adds to another choice she didn't get to make) and up until that point, we can assume that Ellie would probably pick Joel. You can even make the argument that Ellie did have the ability to give consent by being considered and emancipated child, since she was an Orphan from a very early age and being fairly independent, without any father or mother figure other than Marlene, who wasn't even constantly with her because of being a firefly (You can see more about this on the TLOU American Dreams Comic series)
In the end, it was Marlene who gave the consent as Ellie's guardian, but that doesn't mean there aren't blatant ethical issues with how the fireflies handled the situation. Even though Ellie is underage, Informed Consent REQUIRES the doctors to give the patient (and guardian) enough information to understand the risks of and alternatives to the procedure. Ideally, there would have to be a semblance of rapport between the patient, guardian, and surgical team to establish a final decision and there was absolutely no reason for them to keep Ellie sedated, supposedly they did this to avoid Ellie saying no to the procedure and thwarting the chance at a vaccine, which in the end only adds the gravity of the decision. It is not legal (Not that it would matter in the apocalypse) nor ETHICAL to carry on with the surgery without at least conversing with the patient about the procedure. Which also manifests the issue that there is a conflict of interest with Marlene being Ellie's interim guardian, since going on with the procedure would directly benefit Marlene's cause, and for as altruistic it may be, it still doesn't justify committing murder to achieve it (Yes, Jerry was essentially going to commit murder).
And no, Joel wasn't "escorted" out of the facility. He was marched out at gunpoint and without his gear. In fact, Joel technically got kidnapped. After Joel knew Ellie was about to be killed and justifiedly protests, Marlene gives Ethan (the soldier) the order to march Joel out of the compound, and if he tried anything he was to be shot, so now Joel knows he is in imminent threat. This obviously to steer him away from reaching Ellie. If he does anything other than submit and cooperate he would be killed, and kidnapping by definition can happen when someone is removed to another location against his will or is restrained so he isn't allowed to move freely, and Joel is restrained under the threat of deadly force being used against him. This means that Joel was completely justified to use deadly force against the soldier in self-defense (not only for himself but for Ellie too), and he did. Even though he kills the soldier and momentarily frees himself the kidnapping is not over since the other fireflies arrive to kill Joel. Now the threat escalates since he is being shot at by the other soldiers, who intend to kill him for not complying with the kidnapping conditions. All this adds to the fact that Joel acted in self-defense, in fact when he kills Jerry (the surgeon and Abby's dad) he also acts in self-defense since he is again threatened by deadly force with a scalpel, not only to defend himself but Ellie too since she was about to be murdered. And again, as altruistic as the fireflies' intentions were, that doesn't justify them killing a child without at least carrying proper and ethical procedures. I actually think for as low or high the chances were at a treatment/vaccine/cure or whatever, it was still worth pursuing, but at least have the decency to have some ethical and moral standards, if not, why would your cause be credible? Any other father would have reacted the same way in front of this situation, and I think Joel did the right thing in the end, it's the most human thing he could have done, in fact, I think I would stop calling his decision selfish since she acted to protect Ellie. The fact that the possibility of a vaccine or whatever they were making was denied, was the aftermath of the fireflies mishandling the exchange
The power-play aspect I mentioned is just my assumption, so take it with a grain of salt. But logically, and at least from my perspective and similarities to some historic events, the fireflies having such power in the form of the vaccine/cure treatment could very well mean the manifestation of many future armed and violent conflicts. Will they force everyone to take it? Will those that take it to have to submit to Firefly rule? Resources aren't unlimited, so will they trade or will they pillage to subsist and keep up with the demand and supply of the cure/vaccine?
I mean, Ellie was the one chance that the world could be cured... and the fireflies were gonna kill her within hours of receiving her. Very few tests done, very few alternative options considered. As another youtuber said: the fireflies are idiots. They’re being hunted down en masse in the beginning and are logistically inferior to practically every other faction in the game.
Good point, this is why the Last of us was great because it's not very clear on what would be the right choice also the Fireflies isn't as "good" to the people as they seem due to them showing a lot of hostility with Joel, even when he was asking for them to help him. Anyway thank you so much for watching and commenting, I hope you enjoyed the video!!!
I think saying that Fireflies are incompetent and won't create the cure either way is avoiding the moral question. From all we know about Last of Us universe Fireflies are the best shot there is, nobody else is researching the cure anymore. Soldiers are only trying to keep some kind of order, they are struggling to keep quarantine zones operational and everybody else is just trying to survive.
It would make more sense if Fireflies would spend more time on trying other options but that would mess up the flow of the story. So I always assumed that Fireflies are the last chance of finding the cure and that they are competent in this matter. It's also more interesting to ponder on the moral question then just dismissing it.
@@pingwingugu5 This is the most coherent, concise take on the TLOU ending that I've read or watched after almost an hour of scouring online forums. I completely agree with you -- thanks.
@@pingwingugu5 My thoughts exactly. Unless the game introduces another faction that also searches for a cure, which it won't, Fireflies is the last hope. Now that the last hope is destroyed by Joe. He IS the villain against humanity. However, people still like him because the game focuses on him and Ellie a lot more than the Fireflies.
If they did make the vaccine it wont do shit its a fungi not a virus
What I hate is that Marlene asked Abby’s father if it was his daughter would he do the same and he never answered it. Then just because abby was eavesdropping and answered saying she would have done it was meaningless. It’s always easier saying you would do something like then when its not you.
The way they wouldn’t let Joel say goodbye and even see her. Made me agree with what joel did, also they were just throwing him out of the building not even giving him his bag and his weapons. The fireflies went about that whole thing so wrong
Yeah. Forcing someone to do something they would've said yes to doig anyway. If they'd just let Ellie a Joel speak and be together, Ellie would've explained to Joel how it was ok and reassured him that she wanted to do it.
That ending gives me chills every single time. Way to start a video pal! love it
Thank You Very very much!!! Yes for sure, It was that look that Ellie gave that made it so sad. I hope that they can mend this underlying rift in TLOU2. Anyway again thank you for watching and commenting, I truly appreciate it!!!
Ellie didn't agree to give up her life
She didn't even know she had to die
Thats exactly my point. Ellie was on board with finding a cure. However if she knew she was going to die in the process theres no way she would have been quick to say yes or be on board with going through with it. They tried to operate on her without her consent/ without giving her a choice and they really were not even sure that the si called vaccine would work.
Would it matter in the end tho , think about it would you sacrifice yourself for a chance to save countless
@@andrewcruzsmith2343 Of course I wouldn't
Especially after seeing David's actions
Cops killing civilians
The guy faking an injury (bus ambush)
The piles of burned corpses
Joel almost died because of hunters
Etc.
Human Evil can't be cured and I'm sure Ellie was well aware of that by the time they reach Santa Barbara
✌️
If you aren't willing to sacrifice yourself to save the world from a horrible apocalypse, you are beyond an incredibly selfish person.
@@Tofueyno you’d be human
If you think about it, if that one soldier at the beginning of the game haven't shot his real daughter, humanity would've probably been cured a long time ago
So yeah, don't blame Joel, blame the soldier
Hahaha That's true, it all stemmed from that one moment....crazy soldier, if he only knew what he could've prevented LOL
@@aidanvnk1200 yeah, he didn't wanted to
Let's ask Naughty Dog to make an alternate TLOU1.
Lol as if.
@@pjishomo sadly solders must do what there told in a time of crisis and possibly the end of the human race the person was simply doing what the fireflies were as well
If that soldier never shot Joel’s daughter, last of us would have been a completely different story.
It’s a moral dilemma, one life that means the world to you vs the lives of all humanity, shitheads included. Joel has seen the worst that humanity has to offer, so I don’t hate him for making his decision. It’s understandable.
I really love the story they did incredible job i give them 10/10
Very true brother, It had you thinking about a lot of things, one specifically is the morality of the game.
I think another video pointed out very wel that in the world building TLOU did, and what we've seen of Pt 2... Humanity is long gone, not worth saving.
Great comment and yes, it just goes to show how extreme people can get if things hits the fan like it did in the last of us world.
Not exactly a fireproof argument...
@@userjoao Meaning what?
To all who said Joel was wrong your wrong
If your a father what will you do? What will “you” do?
“Just let Ellie grow up because it won’t kill her.”
Exactly, it's a hard choice and the last thing he wants to do is lose another daughter like he did at the beginning
@@GabrielSantos-el4ir uh she wouldnt be able to because the cure is in her brain so if he let her go she would have died
I would not doom humanity as a whole for one person even if daughter or son
Mizz Infamous yh why would you let the whole world suffer for one person.
Wasn’t there an audio log of the doctor saying “the other patients will not die in vain” this implies that Ellie isn’t the only one and that there was a 90% chance she would have died for no reason so maybe Joel did make the right call
If you play the remastered version of the first one, the audio log is not there, so therefore that shit don’t count
@@NateDogg418 wtf?
@@NateDogg418 arguably it counts a lot more then because that's how it was supposed to be first place.
Do u have a video link
@@NateDogg418 then that means it does count as it's meant to be there
I love the ending of the game
I agree!!! Hope you enjoyed the video!!!
My question is how would the fireflies distribute the cure? There's no system of distribution. Plus we still don't know it'd work. Joel made the right choice for the one person that mattered to him...Ellie
That's a great question, maybe they would probably recreate the antibody proteins somehow to combat against the infection, I hope they can elaborate on this in part 2.
Better Question are they even capable of creating a cure, they don't seem like it at all.
@Micheal93k What factory would you have to mass produce such things?
@Micheal93k That is how cures are distributed.
They'll only distribute it for their own cause. The cause that would've been greased by the blood of the unaware and the innocent, aka, Ellie.
You either die a hero or live long just to see yourself become the villain!
Wow that's a great quote to put for Joel!!!
@@HeYDeVuH not really a villain
@@captainbeastwinger4940 I hope he doesn't become one
Naughty Dog's protagonists have always been not quite the good guys.. Nathan Drake, Joel.. Not good dudes, just better than the other bad guys
@@kingnothing2161 yeah
I left this in a reply, but I just wanted go point this out in the main comments too.
There's no argument his actions were selfish. But cures dont work like that. The fireflies lost half their ppl going across country, there's no way they'd have been able to disperse the cure even IF it did work. Military killed them on sight, there's tons of small settlements they'd never even know existed, and not to mention the ones infected would still be around. Even more important you dont just cut open your only immune patient and kill them right off that bat based on an xray and blood test. Esp since other immune ppl never yielded any results in the same process. They never stopped and wondered if their process was flawed, no it was just that Ellie's immunity was unique so now it would work.
The topper imo is that they never asked or discussed it with Ellie, sure its reasonable to assume she'd be willing, but they still didnt even give her the choice. They rushed her off like taking 2 days to study, discuss would have changed things and they most certainly wouldn't have. If they'd have taken that time to discuss it with both Ellie and Joel, it would have taken the wind out of his sails.
All this on top of the fact that they ordered Marlene to kill Joel for... what freaking reason? The fireflies painted themselves as the bad guys in every which way.
Science isnt a sprint, they rushed, and they continue to fail because of it.
Good point, especially as someone who works in the operating room, I know full well that the patient has ALL the rights to refuse surgery. So Ellie in this case had that same privilege. Also for all we know the fireflies may just use the cure to certain people and use that as leverage to increase their cache
@Micheal93k
So you're wanting to take into account information that was never given because the plot would have been too confusing?
For starters yes I thought exactly that, because that's not how vaccines work at all.
1) you do not kill your only immune patient without studying them.
2) they never once asked.
3) they were ordered to kill Joel despite him living up to the agreement above and beyond.
The fireflies have shown nothing but the upmost levels of incompetence the entire game, not to mention corruption. Just because they were looking for a cure for 20 years does not mean they'd instantly know howd they make it from her. That's not how science works.
And I already stated Joel's decision was selfish, but it was still the right one even if for no other reason than they didnt ask Ellie. It doesn't matter how sure you are that they'll say yes, it's not like waiting a day or two to ask would change a damn thing, it was careless and impatient. People have a right to refuse and they were going to murder her "for the greater good" so she didn't have a chance to.
The fireflies are garbage, and using information not given in the game to "keep it simple" is asinine.
@Micheal93k
And my point is that while he did something for a selfish reason, it was still the better reason.
Joel is mildly irritating a lot, but there's a differences in the choices she didnt get. Joel didnt give her a choice to live, the fireflies didn't give her a choice to die.
It's the difference of taking 20 dollars without permission or putting 20 dollars in someone's pocket. One of those is clearly worse.
Other than us disagreeing on the audio recorder there are no assumptions in my original comment, and considering Marleen had JUST said she lost half her ppl traveling as far as Joel and Ellie did, you bet your ass the first thing I thought was
"How the fuck would you even distribute it you incompetent fuck!?"
In that moment. Yes I had all those thoughts, because even my dumbass knows that's not how science and vaccines work.
@Micheal93k
There's absolutely no way they'd work out a peace with them. Both the military and the fireflies have shown themselves to be extremely corrupt.
I didnt really prove your point but hey if that's what you wanna think.
"Its what she would want"
It's quite obvious she didnt talk to her or she would have mentioned it. That's not an assumption but an obvious component told to us.
And if they lost half their ppl traveling it absolutely shows they would not be able to set up a supply chain.
I dunno why you would assume their incompetence would be cured because of a possible vaccine lol.
@Micheal93k *THEY CAN MAKE A VACCINE, BUT ELLIE HAS TO DIE*? Nope. As the player, we need to know more than that.
It’s a metaphor for being a parent and also ultimately the choice to save humanity vs saving the human species.
Joel says it at the end, “it should have been her choice” but everyone else takes that away from her and doesn’t offer it to her. Ironically so does Joel at the end by not telling the truth but here’s where the parentage comes in. He says what he says and lies to her to protect HER. He knows she may run off and try to sacrifice herself to save the human species, but as the game consistently reminds us, she is still a 14 yr old girl. Maybe she can’t understand the gravity of that decision, maybe she would do it out of guilt or a feeling of obligation. But Joel feels responsible and take up the father daughter bond to protect HER, that’s what parents do.
I also believe that everyone forcing their decisions on others, taking from each other and justifying it all for “survival” shows how people can give away pieces of their humanity until they become the real monsters. Joel and Ellie become/are two of the very few characters who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, preserving humanity through their choice to do so.
Maybe Joel is being selfish in some ways, but I think he is being a father looking out for his daughter. He would die for her in a heartbeat, that is clear. As would any parent for their child. It’s not selfish, it’s human. What most people argue as the most beautiful part of humanity.
All OTHER parents in that world would have killed Ellie for the slightest chance of their OWN kids being saved from infection. Is that not just as human? Is that not just as laudable as what Joel did? If he's right, they're right. If they're wrong, he's wrong.
i know its been 2 months but the fire flies are doing the right thing but in the wrong procedure.
hell there are many more of ellie with immunity but they all died because of the fireflies and there aint no vaccine
@@lawrenceadriennevalero3633 i don't think that they found anyone else like Ellie. Joel made that up so that she'd think she was nothing special with regards to finding a cure
E-man they did in a voice recording in the firefly hospital , but the developers deleted the recording so the story of last of us 2 could make sense
@@rkmusic338 link to video?
I think Joël actions are fine i Mean he didnt know it would kil her i Mean losing one daughter is bad enough but losing bassicly a second chance ata daughter also i don't think the cure wouldve mattered i Mean how would they have didpursed it around. Thé world
You made great points and that Is why we love the last of us, because it makes us think about the full picture
It doesn’t matter what the grand moral decision is, in Joel’s eyes he did the right thing. I would’ve done the exact same thing. I think a lot of people who went through all of that together would’ve as well. It’s human to save people even if it’s not the “right” thing to do.
So stupid
@@voetbal12 of you
it saddens me to hear how many people would let humanity die for their own selfish gains.
@@MrSkme why does it sadden you? That’s human nature. Did you not understand the whole character arc of Joel during the first game? Dude lost his daughter, became super isolated and did a lot of fucked up things for survival. He hated the things he did, because he hated himself for letting his daughter die. He was punishing himself. Then one day he comes across this young girl, someone about the same age as his dead daughter, and no matter how hard he tries to ignore and block her out, he starts to care about her. He sees a second chance at being the father he failed to be. He bonds with Ellie and before long he has a surrogate daughter, and he would do anything to protect her. Anything. So when the opportunity comes for him to let her die for a “cure”? Do you really think this man is going to let that happen to her? Let this girl that he believes is his second chance die without so much as her own opinion on the matter? Just let them dissect her? That’s a whole new hell that would end with Joel killing himself from grief. He did the human thing. Not the right thing, and that’s a big distinction. He did something human because he isn’t a robot, he has complex emotions. If I was him, I’d do the same goddamn thing. Not the right thing, the human thing.
@@Gboy4001 🤢🤢
Well, TLOU2 has made all of this basically meaningless.
Such a shame.
Nope Joel gets what he deserves. Characters facing consequences for their actions is not meaningless
No it didn't wtf are you talking about. It made this more meaningful knowing what happens in the sequel
you don't know anything substancial about TLOU2, you just know your favorite character dies, and you don't want to know why he dies, your don't want to see what happens, you only know a developer decided he'd die, and that with him dead the game doesn't matter. That's the shame.
If anything, TLOU2 is a justification, defence, and lastly apology to Joel. The entire game is based on his actions, and his actions are present through the entire game.
@@nicodicodingo1416 I would be okay with Joel dying if it was at least written well, his demise wass so out of character that the story writers made him into such a fool that will give out his name willingly to people he barely knew much less trust, he's not the same character anymore. Sure, his time with Ellie might have soften him but that? That is not Joel. He eventually would've payed the price of his actions but it's just so stupid how he died.
About Ellie, she loses everything, her only living memory of Joel is gone (fingers cut, can't play guitar), she loses her family, she loses her friends, and she she let Abby go. Tommy is basically crippled, Abby gets to go away with at least something to live for because she has Lev.
Ellie went through so much to get to Abby but in the end she lets her go? Its nonsensical.
@@julian23561 tommy gave the name out
He made the right decision.
Its a game about the cost of human life.
He lost his daughter for the sake of "The greater good".
So when he had the chance to return the favor, he saved his surrogate daughter, to spite the greater good.
And in this universe of the game, the human's didn't deserve that chance. Not after what happened.
I wouldn't say humanity didn't deserve the chance, but certainly not at that cost!
People overlook Marlene, and act like Joel had any real choice. He really didn't, because Ellie never was given a chance to consent. If Ellie had been given the chance to say: "Yes" or: "no", and then had a chance to talk to Joel; then the Fireflies would still be alive.
Marlene fucked up by thinking that her vision of a healed humanity was worth any cost. She became a tyrant, and Joel and Ellie were just more ants she could step on while she made her way to a _rEsToReD wOrLd._ Little did she understand that one of those ants was a person at the edge of his sanity!
People ask: "Was Joel right?", but the question is wrong. Joel had no choice, because Ellie had no choice.
lol so you are letting a few incidents to justify the demise of humanity. do you know what you are saying? did you even consider the people who didn't commit the atrocities?
and joe didnt sacrifice his daughter for the greater good.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 listen evryone here joel did the right thing because that that that etc. Dude its not a virus its a FUNGI a vaccine WONT do shit againts it
@@dznuts123 reading must not be your strong suit.
@@IShallCallHimTaders if you dont elaborate on that, you are just making an empty claim.
You can’t make a vaccine for a fungal virus and people say Joel robbed Ellie of her choice well so did the firefly’s the put her under drugs before she woke up. They probably did that because they were afraid Ellie would say no. So Ellie would’ve died for no reason.
Correct if I'm mistaken, didn't they try before to get the cure out of other "test subjects" an it didn't work then either.
I fundamentally disagree that what he did was horrific. He killed fireflies which are known terrorists, who were armed and had plotted to kill him. The only doctor he shoots is one that draws a weapon on him. He wouldnt need to be a saint to make the decision to let go, he would need to me a sociopath. Ellie didnt know she was going to die, and neither did he. The ideal moral case would be that they (fireflies and joel) ask her to make a decision, but they were going to kill her without hers or a parents consent which would never fly irl. He denied her a theoretical right to be killed, but she is a teenager and even in our modern world wouldnt be allowed to make that choice with a gaurdian. If someone IRL did exactly this, they would be found innocent of any wrongdoing be legal standards and most moral standards. The lie is wrong, but thats the only thing done wrong. The hospital scene is him fighting for her, only issue being is that he should technically be fighting for her right to make an informed decision.
Ellie cared about Joel; she protected him while he was recovering.
They journey across the country and bonded due to the loss of Tess and Sam and his brother.
It is medically impossible to make a cure from an immune individual; even if it was, do you really think it would save the world?
There's still killers, rapist, cannibals, corrupt military, and infected out there that a cure can't fix.
The Fireflies started out as riot rebels and showed no respect to Joel and Ellie.
Even after Ellie lives with the cure processing Marlene wouldn’t let joel take her honestly
The world was beyond saving.
@Micheal93k yah
@Micheal93k definitely. Especially 20 years in
This ending was a killer
Yes for sure, it was sad and made us want to see what happens afterwards. Also Joel's decision was a tough one.
Tbh, I don't think Joel did was right, but his decision was correct on saving Ellie, the surgeon was a quack, he was more caught up in his own ego, in a rush to find a cure, without doing testing or even studying Ellie. Even if Joel walked away and let them butcher Ellie for the cure, would the cure even help, probably not people are to far gone, it would just make them less worried about becoming infected.
The conflicting music during the cutscenes it a bit of a strain on the ears
Which part on the video?
Did Ellie know she gonna die in the process?
Did Ellie know about all the failures attempt previously?
She will accept to do soo knowing all this?
Is easy to blame Joel whiteout be sure the procedure gonna work.
Like always, great video.
Thank You very much!!! I don't think she knew the exact process and the success rate if they did get the cure from her, which in a way is sad that she's still willing to find the Fireflies. In the end, it's a very tough situation to be in, because we can blame Joel but at the same time we can empathize with him. Naughty dog really did well making this game and I can't wait for TLOU2. Anyway again thank you for watching and commenting!!!! 😃👍
@@HeYDeVuH Bro I'm literally dying awaiting The Last Of Us 2... and RE3 REMAKE to be honest. AHAHAHAHAH
@@inquisitordragon306 same here, but I think we'll be getting the last of us 2 February 2020, I'm just basing this off all the rumors and evidence that others have put out there.
@Micheal93k Ellie is not the first imune. In the hospital you find files talking about.
@Micheal93k you are making assumption. If fireflies know Ellie will agree to it they would have asked Ellie. You said there were no previous failures, then Ellie would probably be their first failure.
He wars RIGHT WITHOUT A DOUBT. Let me explain:
Yes he fucked humanity hard but humanity isnt done.
Over 20 years later, there are still so many people and just take a look at Tommy's comunity.. It can work just fine the way it is.
MAYBE the fireflies could have created a cure. But thats just a MAYBE. Elli could have died for nothing too.. But Joel, the badass motherfuc*er that he is, saved the only thing that was somehow hopeful and he loved.. He saved her and didnt take the risk that she could die for nothing.
The World in TLOU is not gone. It's just different from what it was before.
Joel was always unfaithful to hinself when it comes to protecting Elli due to the los of his daughter.
BUT in the Hospitals Garage, he hust went full "go fu*k yourself"-mode and finally had some trust that he can now protect his "New daughter".
He's a father, not a hero.
He wanted Elli to have a life.
Joel did the right thing. Fireflies are a bunch of hypocrite and they deserved what they got, fuck them.
Tbh, the writers on this game doesn't know their own game. There are many ways that they could come up with a solution or a better choice for the second game but nah, kill the most beloved protagonist because he saved her daughter from getting murdered by some desperate doctors who's making a "cure" that they haven't researched and tested yet and then decided to kill Ellie off in just a span of making that decision exactly just 24 hours right after getting to that hospital - and threatening Joel (as her father and guardian) to get out of the facility and having a gunpoint at his head after what they've been through to get there.
yeah it's definitely a difficult situation from all sides. Also you're right that after everything they've been through you'd think they'd be treated better by the fireflies once arriving
Joel lied because he knows that Ellie would willingly go on the operation table. The moment he would say the truth she would steal another horse and run away to find Fireflies. But she is a kid, you don't put such a heavy decision on a kid. Everyone above 25 knows how incredibly stupid and naive they were in their teens. Joel is behaving like loving father, I don't know can you call it morally wrong.
I think many of us who say he was right are largely saying this because he's the main character. If we were playing from the viewpoint of a Firefly, people would be arguing that said Firefly was right.
We players have a tendency to fall into 'protagonist-centered morality', in that the guy we play is right, couldn't be wrong, and everything else is rationalized to make said character right. Anything to the contrary rationalized, shrugged off, and handwaved. Because we don't want to have spent an entire game playing someone in the wrong.
The arguments about the vaccine not working, humanity being too far gone, the infected being too strong, all those arguments are just window dressing. We don't know if any of that is true. But we want to believe that it is 100% true, 100% certain. Because, at the core, it boils down to: we don't want the main character we've played the entire game to be wrong.
Whether Joel was right or wrong is inherently meaningless, because that's largely moot. We don't want him to be wrong, and we will block acknowledgement that he might be wrong as hard as we can.
Was Joel wrong in saving Ellie... no since she was not aware that she was being sacrificed.
Did Joel screw humanity... yes and no because we had no guarantee that a cure could be made from Ellie's fungus infected brain but the potential for better understanding was there when it came to creating better methods of protection.
Was Joel's choice selfish... I don't know for certain but I can see how it could be, like when some people say he was replacing Sarah with Ellie due to his trauma at losing his daughter; I just don't know for certain.
Is Joel in the wrong for lying to Ellie... I would say yes simply because she had a right to know.
In the end, Joel's choices tread a very thin moral line because it was a conflict between what he wanted for himself vs everyone elses wants, and he won is all.
I don't think Joel was a hero or a villain. He was human. Everyone in the LOU series is a human. They make mistakes, kill and act selfishly, and do things that people in a modern society might feel morally object to, however, this is the nature of humanity and also survival which I think are the true themes of TLOU, not good and evil but more just an examination of human behavior. It's more than good or bad, more about what is and isn't human.
No, but what he did wasn't right. However, the fireflies were 100% wrong. the only life you're allowed to sacrifice for the greater good is your own. Joel was in a no win scenario, doing nothing while an innocent was killed for no purpose was wrong; slaughtering people to save one person was wrong. Joel was the victim of an unjust world and in the worst possible position. He was a mixture of good and bad like anyone else in the last of us. Anyone who passed judgement on him, is just plain wrong.
The fireflies were incompetent I wouldn't trust them with my life let alone my child. I am a parent but I would've done exactly what Joel did (minus the lying) even if Ellie was a stranger she was an innocent child that didn't consent to be killed.
It makes sense for Joel to make this decision but from a moral standpoint the obvious choice is to let Ellie die to develop a cure.
To me it felt nonsensical and illogical that Naughty Dog would allow us players controlling Joel to absolutely murder all the firefly soldiers (fully armed and trained) inside their own headquarters, to then save Ellie, kill Marlene and get the hell outta there. It felt like an Uncharted ending and not grounded in reality like how the entirety of the game made us feel. It was too bombastic and concluded on a deluded and unrealistic note that was ultimately setting itself up to a worse scenario for a possible sequel. And whadaya know, part 2 was exactly that! The remnants of the sh*tty ending of the first game came back to bite Joel in the butt because that's what the writers wanted. I would've preferred at least if Joel died while fighting off the fireflies in the first game, would've made more sense and would've made for a more cohesive ending alltogether.
But the first game also has 1 unnecessary agenda, that is Ellie being gay in the left behind dlc. I didn't mind it honestly as long as it wouldn't have much importance and was just a side idea to not consider all that much, since I enjoyed the dlc and Ellie's friendship with Riley. I mean, it's a zombie apocalypse and all, the last thing I'd like to think about is Ellie's sexuality of all things lol. But again, part 2 proved otherwise. Ellie has a girlfriend lmao. I mean Naughty Dog why? Lol, was it necessary?! Do you really think THAT is what interest us players? Left behind dlc would've faired better if Ellie and Riley were just friends and not necessarily have feelings for one another, it's just unnecessary (it felt like it was forced, a woke agenda if you must). Shame that even The Last of Us is not a perfect game. Could've been perfect, if they only just ever so slightly adjusted the ending and pulled back on unnecessary agendas in the game. That's coming from a huge fan as well!
I think that anyone who has that type of bond would do that. p.s. are you gonna stream TLoU part 2?
Yes I am, I've never streamed live before but I'll definitely do it for the last of us 2. Also yes, I can see what you mean with Joel's position. Anyways thank you for commenting and hope you enjoyed the video.
@@HeYDeVuH I did, very much thanks for the ❤
@@josipkis8743 no problem!!! I love replying to my comments!!!
I know I would have.
Look, Joey can safe humanity, but look at Elie now, lesbians... So.. Yeah..
That bond he had with ellie was also magnified with the fact that he lost Sarah at the beginning really made it hard for him to let go. Also yes, I guess ellie has a new gf now?
@@HeYDeVuH sad how this goes, I don't see people talk about second last of us. Not surprise at all. Just see resident evil, great game to talk, no one care about freaking weird ship. Heck, even dead space got 3.
@@HeYDeVuH I mean we got kinda anti hero or great selfish father can do to save one stranger girl. If you ask me, I rather see Walking Dead with gameplay of last of us. Joey is opposed Kenny. Sorry if look like rambling to you. I see last of us can be as good as walking dead.. But with what they selling eelie now.. This series dead to me. But great video to talk and reference for better.
I know I am 1 year late, but what is wrong being lesbIan?
This moment in the game is really black and white. I mean Joel chose to doom humanity instead of losing another daughter. From a worldview is decision was fucked up but from his pov it was right. It’s very gray just like all the characters in the game there not really heroes or villains. When this moment in the show happens I’m going to ask my Dad (who hasn’t played the games) what he thought. Cause a lot of people have mixed feelings on it.
Joel based his decision on love and that already gives him sympathy points from me
I have a wonder. I know that "Ellie won't survive" is necessary narratively. But was that a verisimilar scenario? It seems thy had actual trained surgeons and working facilities. We do brain surgery all the time and people survive. The fingus is obviously not all inside her brain, otherwise she would be a gonner. And fungus doesn't need much matter to be reproduced in a culture, far from it, so the extraction of matter can be minimal, potential not even brain matter since it might just have some growth outside the brain but inside the case. Would the surgery really need to be lethal? Doesn't seem necessary to me.
Shhhh!
You're ruining the arbitrary trolley problem.
In all seriousness, you are absolutely right.
From the X-Ray/MRI of her brain, it seems to grow in her cerebrum.
I chalk up the talk of killing her for a cure as inexperience/incompetence on the Fireflies medical staff to do a brain biopsy without botching it royally.
1:55 that didint happen ellie stabbed him like 20 times and then left the burning house then joel grabbed her
One of the best games ever ....
Am just waiting for the second part
One of the best games that made me cry .... Too much cry...
Best story best actting best action and mutation ...
I just like it...
If i put my self in Joel's place
I would do the same
But not killing that woman at the hospital ( fire flies ) ...
Most of fathers will do it....
.
.
Thank u #Hey DeVuH ♥️
I like ur voice too and ur posts 👍👌
Thank You so much!!!! I appreciate that you enjoy my voice over especially since English is my second language and sometimes I have a difficult time pronouncing certain words. Also yes, this game gave us so much emotional moments, It was a true masterpiece. Anyways again thank you so much and I'm very happy to see you enjoyed the content, Also let me know what part of TLPU you want me to cover for future videos. 😃👍
@@HeYDeVuH
I am waiting for TLOU part two
In the next posts ... I know u always make us happy with ur posts.. 😘🥰
@@mohibisam2976 thank you!!! Same here, let's just hope we can an official announcement soon
@@mohibisam2976 bet you cried in the museum in two then😈
Joel was 100% right. I would never let this kid give up they life. They can find someone else or the world can keep going the way its been going
Hahahahahaha wtf
And why someone else is less important than Ellie
@@maximumcarnage2988 bro because it's ellie we spent a whole game saving and being saved by that girl. It was Joel's choice to make. And I enjoyed every second. Went back and did it again just to be spiteful. Put it on my ig lol
@@maximumcarnage2988 before you get more sensitive about MY comment. Are you speaking from a place of privilege and blonde hair or can we have these jokes?'
@@GreedDGodd Candice
They removed a recorder where the firefly doctor were saying that they had other people sacrificed for a cure and it doesn’t worked. So joel was right.
You mean Ellie will fail if Joe did agree to the surgery? What makes you so sure about that?
@@dznuts123 because thats not how vaccines work and you can't make vaccine for a fungus
@@blckotaku5250 So we are going to debate nomenclature? Seriously? This is a video game for fucks sake.
If it's removed, doesn't that make it non-canon?
@@dznuts123 that’s based off of real world stuff
I think he did do the right thing but it also sucks what happens to him for what he did..
What about the fact that they wouldn’t be able to save people any ways as we can see in a paper found in the old fireflys hospital
It’s the trolley problem kill one for many
It’s stupid to kill the many
Ellie never made a choice in the finale. She was out cold remember?
Marlene and the Fireflies were the ones who took away both Ellie's, and Joel's, choice. Joel's _ChOiCe_ was this ultimatum:
"Save Ellie, or watch her be murdered to possibly _sAvE tHe WoRlD."_
It's murder, because nobody asked Ellie about her choice. She never consented to the procedure that would cost her, her life. Seems like a pretty big decision to leave her out of.
Joel's _cHoIcE_ was so deeply in the grey that it's indistinguishable from black. Doomed if you do, doomed of you don't. If Ellie had chosen the surgery, and Joel was given time to grieve; the Fireflies would still be alive.
ruclips.net/video/S5ulX06McSY/видео.html
She didnt sacrifice herself. She didnt know shed be killed.
Joel has never been a morally upright character anyway.
I think it’s safe to say that, right or wrong, any good parent would have done the same. Joel couldn’t help it, his child or not. Personally, I couldn’t do it. I could not purposely allow the demise of a child, even if it meant making a vaccine. And I don’t think anything, or anyone can convince me otherwise.
They should take him anywhere to get their revenge but shouldn't have to kill him the reason is 1st part was well played by people because of the bond of Ellie and Joel. Joel was favorite and the reason of playing next part.
I would have done the exact same thing as Joel to save Ellie ... But I would have not lie to her at the very end ... sure she could have understdood ! That lie is selfifsh imo, not the saving of her !
What I find interesting is how this question comes up so often, when the answer is pretty obvious. Joel very clearly made the right decision and the fireflies made it easy for him to make that decision. They certainly didn't help things.
First of all, you can't make a vaccine for fungal infections. So right off the bat, there's a problem here. I don't expect a player to necessarily know this, but in-universe I would expect a surgeon to know it and if they didn't I would question if they knew what they were doing.
Okay, but let's pretend that you can make a vaccine for a fungal infection. Ellie still would not have had to die. There would have been other ways to get at the fungus without killing her. Sure, such a surgery might still carry a risk of death, but the fact they jumped straight to the option that would kill her. They also clearly didn't do much since they did all of this between knocking Joel out and him waking up.
Okay, so let's pretend that they tried absolutely everything and found that they would absolutely have to kill Ellie to create their "vaccine". Did they ask Ellie for her permission? Would they have respected her decision if she declined? Of course, people point to some of her dialog to imply that she would have been okay with it, but this isn't the same thing as consent and none of the fireflies were around to hear it. Furthermore, is Ellie capable of giving truly informed consent. Ethically, it's all messed up. Again, they didn't wait long before they drugged an unconscious child and attempted to kill her.
Ellie's also ridden with survivvor's guilt and a fear of loss that came from everybody she cared for either dying or leaving her. And with the knowledge that she's immune, it would make sense that she might begin to see this as a way to find meaning in her life, and a way to escape from the fear and pain she felt. But this should not be taken as an okay to kill her and IMO, it's pretty messed up that so many seem to think this is a good reason why Joel was in the wrong. Because they are implicitly agreeing with this unhealthy mindset. And none of it even mattered because it would have not resulted in a fungal vaccine, and death was not actually necessary to get at the fungus.
Next up, the fireflies themselves aren't trustworthy. At the start, the game makes it clear the government is not good, their rule is a strict authoritarian one. And many people did not like this, so they formed the Fireflies. Somewhere along the way though, they became just as bad if not worse than the government was. The game shows they were not particularly popular in the places they controlled. And often these places would then become overrun with bandits or zombies. While in contrast, the government is not good, at least the places they controlled were relatively safe. And yet, the Fireflies were often committing acts of terrrorism in those safe zones, which put many people at risk.
So in a general sense, they don't seem to be particularly good or competent people. Some of the places you come across that they controlled also imply a lot of inept people ran the place. They don't seem to have much of a positive track record. To make matters worse, far worse. Their relationship to Joel is an especially bad one. Joel and Tess are asked to get Ellie to one of their locations in return for some guns. And when they do get there (after Tess had died), the Fireflies have already abandoned the place. Joel and Ellie make the decision to travel even further to get her to another of their locations, and throughout the story come across many of their former locations. At the end of the journey, Joel is knocked out by one of the Fireflies and wakes up to word that Ellie will have to die to create a vaccine, and when pushed further on it, gets guns drawn on him.
They then attempt to escort him off the premises without paying him or even so much as returning his stuff to him. This and a log in the hospital imply that they were likely going to kill him. If they didn't outright kill him, I would argue that it would be even worse because they would be sending him out into a world with no protection, which would mean he would likely be killed by bandits or zombies. Either way though, if the Fireflies were the good guys they would not have done either. But if they had gotten their way, not only would Ellie have died for nothing, but so would Joel.
Lastly, there are far more problems after the supposed vaccine is created. Like how do they distribute it? Who gets the vaccine? How does that help with the infected already there? Clearly the world does not seem like it will just go back to how it was, so it is very likely that a vaccine would not have done much in the long run. It's likely that it actually becomes just another way for a group to gain control of the people. "Do what we say if you want the vaccine" basically. People would likely fight over it, many would die.
Their biggest failing is creating a situation where the answer was obvious for Joel. What if instead of knocking out Joel and drugging Ellie so quickly, they instead helped Joel resuscitate her and welcomed the two to the base. Then they did some tests, taking proper time to make sure they could create the vaccine. Maybe then they came to the conclusion they needed the fungus on her brain and the surgery might be fatal. So they consult with both Ellie and Joel about it and about the risks. Ellie would likely then have decided to go through with it, and Joel would either need to accept her answer and let her go through with it or refuse and then he could be portrayed as in the wrong. This would of course destroy his relationship with Ellie, with likely no chance to ever reconcile. As it is though, the story doesn't give them that out. Them going straight to the fatal procedure and then even considering killing Joel either directly or indirectly because he had the audacity to bond with her, not even giving the two a chance to say goodbye. Yeah, their mistake was they made his choice too easy.
Ask any parent what they would do if they were in this situation and most will probably tell you they would do the same thing Joel did. Sure, saying one would is different from actually doing it, but even in real life you can see people rushing into dangerous situations to save their children, even when nobody else will. I guarantee you most absolutely would, especially if they had gotten to that point in the first place. Normally a parent trying to save their child is considered a good thing, and yet a lot of people act like Joel is the worst person because he did the human thing which is to save somebody he cared about like a daughter.
I have my doubts about a cure purely for one reason: If they actually were successful, they'd have had to organize extremely well and vaccinate EXTREMELY early (like, right after the person is bitten) given how fast fungi grow. And there would have been a hell of a slim chance the vaccine even worked at that stage because as far as I know, a vaccine wouldn't work on fungi.
joel did the right thing bro,he figured out that there is no cure, so what's the use even if they used ellie
That's true, it was a very tough choice and from what we saw from part 2 it makes his decisions much harder to pick when looking back
Dude Ellie in part 1 is 14 years old. First of all no one informed her that she might die. Second did you see the place they were going to perform surgery?? Third I don’t work in health services but I’m pretty sure that risking to kill the only person (alive) that has a mutation that makes her immune to the source of a pandemic is not the best choice. Forth the vaccine is not guaranteed to be produced or work effectively, there’s a possibility that it might go well and there is a great possibility of it going south which makes third reason even more important. But Fifth and most important, even if Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself for the sake of humanity, with all the possibilities of that sacrifice being in vain, HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU LET A MINOR TO TAKE SUCH A CHOICE FOR HER LIFE?! SHE IS 14!!!! Don’t debate that Joel made the wrong choice please. His only fault was that he lied (same as all the others btw)
To be honest after watching the last of us 2, apart from the fact it might have not been for the same reason i have in mind, he did the right thing. in TLOU 2 alongside with the drama of the 2 girls going after vengeance, it shows the whole population is divided into factions, militias or any sorts of groups on each others throats for any reason and even shunning their own people for any ideological differences, if someone is dear to me, only dear, not even a daughter figure, is to be sacrifices to save these, i would say to hell with them all, they will only survive to fight over getting the cure and still be on each others' throats for a new reason, they have no intention of saving one another while Joel and Ellie saved one another at least from themselves
Whoever thought that Joel's choice was analogous to the "trolley problem" doesn't really understand either the "trolley problem", which is that there is really no right answer certainly without understanding the context of the situation, or the situation Joel finds himself in. So in other words the argument that Joel's choice was morally wrong is simply patently false for a number of reasons:
1) There is a world of difference between self-sacrifice and forced sacrifice.
2) Evaluating the worth of a human life only as a function of its utility is most certainly an immense moral calamity the depths of which lead you to some of the darkest places of the human condition.
3) From a scientific point of view, killing your only live specimen of a potential cure is utterly nuts. This assumes in fact that the scientists working on this case have complete confidence in their theories to a level that does not exist in reality. From a moral point of view, even the most accomplished scientists should never entertain such hubris.
4) Survival in a post-apocalyptic world is clearly possible even if it comes at a great cost. But again, there is probably a moral argument to be made against seeking out silver bullets that solve everything instead of finding solutions that put collaboration and compromise at their core.
It’s pretty obvious he was wrong, they could have made a cure and he acted selfish because he wanted a daughter
Very true, it was a difficult decision for him due to all the trauma that he's been through as well. This is why TLOU was so great. Anyway thank you for commenting and watching!!! Hope you enjoyed the video
Also, the world was already beyond saving.
Micheal93k Based on what Joel has gone through after Sarah’s death and in this journey the player experiences alongside these characters, there was no point of fixing the damage already done by the cordyceps spread. Almost all the major cities are overtaken, government resources exhausted and most of the surviving people reduced to savagery and cannibalism.The world was far beyond saving at this point.
Micheal93k And Tommy’s community provide haven, but as far as the whole world’s concern is far too broken to the point of no return.
Micheal93k The world might as well be rebuilt from scratch.
it wasn't the morally right thing to do to let the Fireflies kill Ellie. you don't vaccinate a fungus, and one test subject wouldn't have made enough cure for the whole world anyway. Ellie would have died in vain. maybe you can make the argument that Joel was wrong to slaughter the Fireflies, but saving Ellie was unequivocally the right thing to do
My answer is no he was not wrong I’m not gonna go into my deep philosophical analysis but just know Joel did the best choice he had
I respect that and I can see both sides of the argument, this is why the last of us was great.
they would have killed ellie and there was no chance of cure
I say no because of fireflies he lost tess his closest friend and they didn't give his weapons and look the way fireflies treated him at end
What he did was 100% wrong in spiderman ps4. He is faced with a similar scenario but did the right thing and we praise him for that. So why praise joel who was selfish
I enjoyed killing every one of those damned bugs. They ain't any better than FEDRA
Joels right. It will not ruin the relationship, theres nothing to ruin. A ruined relationship is better than nothing I guess.
Good job
Thank You so much!!!
The thing people forget is that it was a gamble. The fireflies didn't know that it would work, it might but it would 100% kill Ellie
Thank you bro, no body understands this. And even if it did work they didnt have enough supplies to mass produce the cure
@@Asher.Gaming43 Joel most likely did it to save Ellie but if he was 100% sure it would save humanity then he probably wouldn't have. His mindset was more likely "if there is even a 1% chance that it won't work I'm not gonna risk Ellie dying for no reason"
What is the morally right thing to do? Sacrifice someone you love to save the world? Or sacrifice the world to save the world?
I would of done the same thing. I want to do shit for me. Cause we all die but guess what the world and life keeps going.
Yes. He caused his own selfish feelings to jeopardise the progression of humanity.
Love the RUclips channel name and yes I can see what you mean. It's understandable that he could have prevented much more trauma for the future of humanity but after going through what he did, it makes it difficult for him to make that decision.
@@HeYDeVuH sometimes sacrifices must be made.
@@GAZAMAN93X That's true, Joel had to make that decision but ultimately chose to do what he felt was important
@@GAZAMAN93X Dude shut your dumb ass up. Lets see you give up your own kids
@@pitster1105 if the ends justify the means.... Yes I will do it.
its unsettling that people think killing a little girl (without her consent, they never got ellie's permission, nor have given her time to talk it out with joel) to save humanity is the morally right thing to do. that is never morally right, nothing justifies murder. joel's actions were not only what any good parent would do, but if i had to say, way closer to being morally right. ( there wasnt even any guarantee that the cure was surefire, but i wont get into that, and thats not why joel did it anyway )
Tha fact that i wasted 70 follars on tlou 2 only cus i wanted to play with joel and then he dies in the first 15 minutes like
Damn bro i'm sorry let's hope NaughtyDog do a DLC with Joel and Tommy with them days as hunters
YES FRIKING YA
He was wrong then again you can't blame him blame the crap writing.
Joel shouldn't have to make his Decision. The fireflies had labs all over and but she was the only immune. Which irl was bs if she's naturally immune that means plenty of other humans will be immune.
In the end he was selfish.
@Micheal93k The story is pure circumstance. My point was his decision was crap. There's nothing new in the last of us literally wise at all the only thing that was originally was using the cordyceps fungus.
@Micheal93k It's subjective that's your opinion. I don't like the game masterfully please. This is textbook by the number storytelling for any writer and admirer of literature.
The music is top notch and characters are good but not stand out. It's the bond between Elie and Joel that makes the story. Did you ever read reviews because hundreds of people in user reviews say it's original and media outlets it's never been seen before.
I gave my reasons why him having to decide if Ellie lived was circumstantial.
Did you even my original comment or are the usual person commenting out of emotions.
Did want me to break the story don't piece by peice or something ?
Pointless conversation because I don't endlessly praise the game. Joel was wrong and the story is pointless .
@Micheal93k 1 whatever. 2. Nah I couldn't careless but YOU sounded like everyone that's gets emotional if you don't agree on the last of us .
3 Yes the story and his decision which I implied if not blatant said towards the end of my original post.
Then I even explained why I thought it was do have to spell everything out. And I explained how it wasn't original . I swear does feel like I'm talking in circles because your reading comprehension sucks I explained my reasoning and why don't like the story in multiple posts. Then you go I still don't understand but whatever shrugs
@Micheal93k Ah I see gotcha my bad yeah . I see my context was left out like you said text doesn't show everything we mean and imply. Yes he was behaving out character sure the situation evolved but definitely out of his established character.
It was just supposed to be a routine job that he preformed before. They could've stopped the journey anytime, they couldn't get contact with the fireflies and Tess died there was no point in continuing he didn't even know why he was delivering her . Joel went out of his way to get her there and they weren't even sure anyone would be there let alone alive . He was getting out of the smuggling game but still kept going for the sake of plot.
Ellie and Joel play off each other alone their nothing. Ellie is the true protagonists how the story tone goes similar to Geralt and Ciri in the Witcher. Both surrogate fathers effected the outcome of their respective daughters lives and both choices rendered the stories pointless in my opinion if your not going for it's the journey not the destination. In Geralt's case he decided through arbitrary in game decisions that affected Ciri's confidence in beating the white frost (which if read the books is pointless it's unbeatable you can't be a universal ice age ) so pointless ending.
In Joel's case the story forces him to go out of his to take a suicide mission keep going when by all means he should've stopped. Also for the fact if Ellie is immune then others should be immune. So the story arbitrarily forces Joel into a choose this option before you even factor his bond with Ellie .
Then his selfish decision kills all of Ellie's character development by her growing up and deciding for herself and doomed the world making then entire story pointless. IF your not I repeat just along for the journey and don't care about the consequences of the storys conclusion.
TlDR the Journey could've ended anytime, but the story goes out of its way to continue. When in any other time Joel would've stopped. I still feel he was wrong.
@Micheal93k Yeah we do.That's what I mean things went sideways he should've aborted but I see your point on why he continued.I'm not doubting their bond that was rock solid but the journey.They had months to bond and I understand his need to get rid off her .I've lost most of the closest people to me before finding new 'family' so he need to get rid of her but through bonding wants to protect her and keep her around makes perfect sense. (although selfish)But I digress on that . I see where your coming from
I agree I don't like Joel either lol. I don't like Ellie much but love her progress and liked her greatly at the end. Yeah she has so potential where she can go and I hope she achieves it .I'm going to get the game but so far I'm not impressed . I want to see her growth with all Joel has taught her and if he's dead how she moves past to become her own woman. I'm not into the pandering and the poor showing they gave at the reveal I don't care about her behinds door business nor do I want to pat you (Naughty Dog)on the back for showing underage kids kissing.
show me who she has become the strong capable woman in a unforgiving world. I do agree IF Joel is the main protagonist that would cement that Ellie will always be living in Joel's shadow which is beyond boring . But that's just my opinion won't know until game drops
No he wasn’t
Why do people keep ignoring that Ellie wasn’t given a choice. She wasn’t selflessly volunteering, she was being murdered.
Joel lied to her cause he knew what's ger choice is
@@hamid-fr5td we don’t know that. All Ellie ever talked about is what they would do after. He had just as much reason to think she wanted to live.
Any father would do it.
It is just simple human nature, if i were joel i would have done the same. Only fathers would understand him.
Imagine a child who is bullied by another, can't do anything to defend himself and suffers every day at school for a long time affecting his emotions and self-esteem, but one day he gets completely fed up with the bully, his anger and frustration consumes him, the boy walks up to the bully and hits him with a bat, then over and over and over until he dies.
I can understand his anger and desire for revenge, I was also bullied at school, but that doesn't justify killing him.
Joel HAS reasons to protect Ellie, but no matter what he feels or what he has suffered, the world is bigger than us and there are things that no matter what we feel are the ones that must be done for a good that surpasses us.
I understand why Joel did it, but objectively he is wrong.
PD:
1- don't come to me with the "Oh you would do the same if you where in his place" cause I will never be in a similar position, it's a game where a fungus can transform humans into zombies
2- No matter what other arguement you have I will not change my mind
Devuh, this is not an analysis. You should be neutral when making analysis. When your video starts with emotion vs morally right, you were already taking sides, you already think what joel did was wrong.
When doing analysis, you should put your "emotion" aside.
Right or wrong is subjective, it is pointless to discuss on this.
First of all, Joel is selfish.
Bear in mind this is not a black and white situation. Killing Ellie doesn't guarantee the cure, doesn't guarantee they can distribute the cure, doesn't guarantee they can save humanity. So, the worst case scenario, Ellie will die for nothing. You could argue it is a step closer to the cure, but how many steps do fireflies need? 100? 1000?
To save humanity, they actually need to do more than sacrificing Ellie. So the comparison of Ellie vs humanity is not fair. It should be Ellie vs a chance to create a cure.
joel is right. that’s all i gotta say
There was no choice !!! The game didn’t give you the option to not kill , what are you talking about ?
He’s talking about Joel’s choice
Yeah Nah I know that
He did the right thing because it wasn't guaranteed that it would work. Even if it did, it would not have worked for a majority but for only one person. There was only a small chance of it being a success and Joel wasn't taking that chance in losing his surrogate daughter and nothing coming out of it.
moral of the story was that it hurts worse if you lose the same thing twice i guess
Very true and he had to make that decision by the end of the game. Also thank you for watching and commenting, I hope you enjoyed the video 😃
Well to be fair, the ethics that are set in place by medicine today aren't in effect in a post apocalyptic setting we see here and if they were then Joel, as Ellie's guardian has the right to decide about the procedure. Even if they decided to go through with the procedure and death is the inevitable result, there's still no guarantee that a cure would be the result and that in and of itself is unethical... To kill with a possibility of no change at all but with a guaranteed death is unethical and immoral.. if however you think that it is actually the ethical and moral thing to do then you might want to take a second look at Nazi Germany because there were people being tested on and eradicated for the "greater good".