Why is Abby Hated and Joel Loved? - (Why Abby is a bad character) (SPOILERS)
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Analyzing why people loved Joel and hated Abby.
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Joel's Death Made No Sense: • Why Joel's Death Made ...
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Rat King Analyzed: • The Last of Us Part II...
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TLOUS Part 1 Explained: ruclips.net/video/ErliaNjdMeM/видео.html
TLOUS 2 Explained: ruclips.net/video/UlHu1L5BvXM/видео.html
Joel's Death Made No Sense: ruclips.net/video/bjC8pGFBbko/видео.html
Review: ruclips.net/video/ytyCAi6qwoI/видео.html
Easter Eggs: ruclips.net/video/waIy2EwZ__8/видео.html
Rat King Analyzed: ruclips.net/video/Ek0-xDTlnB4/видео.html
Cordyceps Explained: ruclips.net/video/Ug-WyUx-75A/видео.html
The Last of Us Part II: ruclips.net/p/PL4kahSgkPUUpknBV1EHZ6PzhnbNlnaw8b
Personally from a story perspective, I think it would have been slow as fuck, but they should have just told the story in chronological order. You play as Abby 1st and see her child-hood, see the aftermath of Joel's attack and go from there. You play as Abby through her story, not knowing who is fucking up the WLF, and end it with Abby getting the drop on Tommy, shooting Jesse and telling Ellie to stand up. Then the game can cut to Ellie's story and how her and Joel's relationship became jaded leading up to her saying she is willing to try and forgive Joel for his fuck up. This leads into Ellie seeing Joel get murdered by Abby, and leads us into Ellie's story in Seattle. They can end it with you playing an unwinnable boss fight against Abby, instead of fighting against Ellie. And the game can finish how it did initially in Santa Barbara.
Playing as Abby first makes the game seem fresh and new, going through her story first let's us see how her father being killed turned her into the psycho we see and gives a little more justification for killing off Joel. Then there is the mystery of who is killing Abby's group in Seattle but you already kinda think that it's the Jackson group.
Telling Ellie and Joel's story in chronological order would have had a more profound impact rather than the shock value that it had. You would see how they drifted apart for a few years, because of Joel's choices then just when Ellie was about to work on forgiving Joel, he gets executed in front of her eyes. Would have had more of an emotional response seeing that they wouldn't be able to make amends now, perfectly leading into Ellie's story of vengeance and the lesson that she isn't about killing for the sake of revenge.
I never saw Joel as a 'good person'. Joel hit a positive nerve with a lot of people as someone who would do what he had to. If we were suddenly in an apocalypse equal to TLoU, and we survived, we all wish we had Joel's grit and determination.
Also the whole father/daughter bond. It’s nice to see a guy that’s seen so much shit protect a girl that he sees as his daughter
The definition of a good person is obviously going to be different in an apocalypse like this. Joel simply did what everyone else had to in order to survive. That doesn't make him a bad person.
It does not change the fact that he was getting better. There is a thing called people can change for the better. Keep in mind the fireflies we're far from Saints they were terrorists the cure for political power. Also I do not recall ellie giving her consent to the operation because she was unconscious the whole time.
@@elpopman2055 Oh, I agree with you on that. I think Joel became the 'bad man' he was because of his loss. But I also think Ellie was the one who helped him get back to as normal as one could get in that world.
Joel always did things for a reason, usually survival, Abby killed him in cold blood for petty revenge, so she's already a worse person in my eyes.
There is a difference between a good person and a good character.
This, some people need to understand this
She fits none of the criteria’s for either one
Abby is neither.
@Zeus Neil is now VP of the company, so he's the one firing the people who disagree with him. That seems to be part of the problem.
ifly fsx
Yup Neil IS the problem at naughty dog
Abby's only issue as a character was her underdevelopment and the way her story is framed; nothing she does is nonsensical. Joel is loved not because he's a good person (he's a monster), but because he's sympathetic and the formula of development which Druckmann used (first seen with his loving daughter, losing her, cut to the future where we don't see how he was for twenty years) is pretty brilliant as far as character development in a video game story goes. Druckmann tries pretty hard to garner sympathy for Abby as a character, but she doesn't benefit from the timeline of her actions. When it comes down to it, Abby's character (distinguished from her personhood) has a lot of flaws that stem from her development being limited and actively hindered from her actions within the game.
Joel's descent into assholedom in those 20 years being cut out of view was the wisest thing they did for garnering audience sympathy and believability in his relationship development with Ellie. Only hints of his past sins are ever revealed, but never extrapolated on (e.g. him being an ex-hunter, his capacity for torturing prisoners for information). His defining character trait (a tragically bereaved father violently robbed of his daughter and purpose in life) is the first thing that effectively bonds him with the audience.
Meanwhile they introduce Abby as this petulant, friendship-burning, vengeance-fuelled maniac who beats the brains out of the man (and fan favorite) who had just saved her life 5 minutes ago. She is routinely shown in the most unsympathetic light, from her enjoyment of torturing Scars, her utter conviction that even Scar child soldiers deserve to die, and this is several hours into the forced switching from Ellie (also a fan favorite) to Abby's perspective. She talks down on Owen's remorse over the shitty things he has done, telling him to grow up, as if a willingness to become a sadistic killer is a sign of maturity.
There's something to be said about showing all sides in their entirety for the sake of 'honesty' and those values that writers like Druckmann love to go on about, but the lack of focus in actually building a genuinely sympathetic character in Abby for the sake of constantly showing her worst tendencies is what really bombed any chance of anybody liking her.
I love Abby and Joel. But I understand how hard it is for people to like her. She’s introduced as the woman who killed Joel, after all.
I do think it’s a very bold move for those behind the game to attempt at making Abby and those around her empathetic for the audience. And I think a big reason why so many people don’t like her is because they just don’t *want* to like her. They don’t *want* to be empathetic towards her. And they’re well within their right to feel that way.
And that’s where the issues with plot for TLOU2 start to come up. Those behind the game should have known (or at the very least assume. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and all that) that a large chunk of the fans weren’t going to want to like Abby. This means they would have to work twice as hard if they were going to pull off making Abby a character we can *empathize* with.
But it doesn’t feel like they did. For one, Abby’s main, if not whole, motivation for killing Joel was because Joel murdered her father. But that doesn’t mean anything to us. Notice how I say we need be able to *empathize* with Abby rather than *sympathize* with her if she’s going to be a good character.
Sympathy is when you acknowledge someone’s feelings/emotions/suffering. But empathy is being able to *understand* their feeling/emotions/suffering.
Even if the majority of players were able to acknowledge the fact that Abby’s dad was murdered and that would set her on a path to murder Joel, it doesn’t mean they understand it.
Where those behind the plot went wrong was Abby’s flashbacks. Frankly, I couldn’t give a shit about Abby’s relationship with what’s-his-face and how that affects her now. We don’t *need* to know about her boy troubles to empathize with her when the main reason we don’t want to is because she killed Joel. What we *need* to know about is her relationship with her father. What we *need* is to *understand and empathize* with her relationship with her to her father so that we can *understand and empathize* why she would kill Joel.
What they *should* have done was introduce Abby’s dad from the beginning of the flashbacks and then wait until the end to kill him off.
In the game Abby and Ellie have two flashbacks each. But for the sake of “fixing” the story to make Abby more empathetic, I’m giving Abby four flashbacks.
Flashback 1: This flashback will take place before Joel dies. We play as Abby’s dad. My main issue with Abby’s debut is that she’s not fighting for anyone (alive at least) and she clearly had a malicious intent as far as we see through our first playthrough. So this flashback will instead take place right as Abby’s going to be born. Jerry (her dad) and Abby’s mom are fighting to stay alive. Their community was just raided and they have to get out fast as infected flood the area. Eventually they manage to get in a car and drive to safety, but Abby’s mom is badly injured. Jerry helps her give birth and Abby’s mom dies from blood loss or something. Jerry is still amazed at the baby he’s holding and just as we’re starting to calm down, infected start coming and they have to run again. The flashback ends and we play as Ellie now.
Flashback 2: This one also takes place before Joel dies because he have to start empathizing with Abby before all hope is completely lost after she kills Joel. In this one, Abby’s a child. We’re still playing as Jerry and they have yet to find a new community. While looking for supplies, they get jumped by a group. They hide we have to distract the group so Jerry and Abby can get away because they don’t have the weapons to kill all of the people. Just as we’re about to get away, Abby gets grabbed and Jerry goes FERAL. He straight up murders the other guy by beating him with a brick or something. The other members of the group come and are about to kill them when they all get shot. The fireflies save them.
Flashback 3: We play as Abby now. This is the start of the day when Jerry dies. She’s going to school, making friends, kissing cuties, the whole deal. We get to know some of the other fireflies Joel kills as a little Easter Egg(?) and then she goes to meet with Jerry. Abby’s kind of distant with her dad and she’s like, “I’ve been thinking about when I was younger. When you nearly got yourself killed for me? I never want to feel that helpless. Never again.” And then Jerry’s like “aight kiddo let me teach u how to hunt :))”
Flashback 4: Literally just the same thing as the original first Abby flashback, where she learns how to hunt with her dad. The main changes I would make would be what animal they rescue purely for the symbolism since Zebras represent individuality and I just don’t think that fits well with the other themes. I’ll leave suggestions below but yeah. The only other thing I’d add is Jerry having a heart to heart about Abby saying she’ll never have to worry about getting too strong bc he’ll always be there to protect her which I thought would be fun bc he’s about to die.
Dove = Peace, innocence, love, gentleness, kindness
Otter = Medicine
Porcupine = Innocence
Dog = Compassion, service, loyalty, protection
But yeah. That’s what I would do to make Abby more empathetic.
Number 1, cut the scene where she eggs her dad on to perform a vivisection on a little girl.
Number 2, make her ignorant and thus an innocent of the sins the fireflies operate from. Then her killing Joel is born from ignorance and misunderstanding so her arc is actually tragic instead morally inexcusable.
The problem is her motivation. She is mad her dad was killed trying to remove the brain of a little girl in an operation she encouraged him to go through with. Can't sympathize, empathize or care to understand that; its just wrong. It only makes some sense if Abby has some dark mental disorder and generally lacks humanity for poeple outside her close in-group but the game doesn't go there, it makes her pet dogs and save Zebra's with her sitcom wholesome dad.
Worst thing about Abby is that she did not really seemed bothered by the shit she did. Like...even tho I think some of Ellies "remorse" was a bit forced at times and inconsistent as hell. At least she had some. At least she seemed to be struggling mentally and losing herself. Abby never did. Sure she lost some friends but aside from that she was never really that bothered by any thing happening around her. She never even THOUGHT about regretting what she did to Joel. She shows no real regret, and aside from being starved in the end. She's perfectly fine in the end and seems like she can move on and and have peace and be happy. She doesn't seem to have lost herself. Ellie on the other hand....jesus christ.
SuperSaiyan3985 Literally. I feel like playing as Ellie goes very fast, and getting to Abby is much longer because she has such a big boss fight with the rat king, ellie doesn’t have anything like that besides Nora. I really wish they stuck with the first original concept, it’s what we all wanted.
@@SuperSaiyan3985 Abby spared her twice and Ellie still tried to kill her she shouldn't have to apologize at all
Joel killed her dad... come on. what if it's you in abby 's shoes. should you be remorseful?
I don't think Joel felt a lot of remorse for all the people he killed. And the thing is, she never explicitly says she regrets it but it's obvious it still bothers her and killing Joel didn't bring her any peace. Also when Yara asks abby why she is helping them she said she had to. That it was guilt. Guilt for killing Joel in the manner she did, guilt for blindly killing so many serephites, we don't necessarily know but we know she is trying to do something right for a change. It's strange to me that Joel did so many shitty things in the 20 years of the apolalypse, and through protecting Ellie he seems redemption but Abby isn't given the same treatment
One is just better at handling mental scars better. Not everyone grieves the same.
Joel basically had some truly sympathetic moments and a lot of people understood him. Abby not so much.
"when people torture a character you wanted them to like, then you fucked up" YEP that's the whole tlou2-missed opportunity, narcism and simping to a feminist
They had to make us hate Abby to empathise with Ellie, then try and make us understand what Abby did, which is a pretty much impossible balancing act, as she was irredeemable for me, she could at least have showed some remorse for what she did, but nothing.
@Darth Maul Abby's motivation in caring for Lev was to put out a bit of good in the world to make up for all the shit she's done. She does it to "lighten the baggage".
Joel LEARNS to love Ellie. He never does it to feel like a better person. And he REFLECTS on sht he does (ex. When he badmouthed Ellie in TLOU1 for not obeying him to stay put when in reality, Ellie saved his life. Ellie got upset and answered back "No, what about thanks Ellie it was either him or me". He ignores this at first but after awhile he puts down his pride and tells Ellie "Just so we're clear back there, it WAS either him or me.")
@@mat5hack She did show remorse. More so than Ellie did for torturing Nora. Art is supposed to provoke an emotional response. Be it good or bad. The goal satisfied by the observer after the fact. That's the point. It's not a literal in game "choice" (there are no such things) it's what the audience is left with. A book, a painting, a magic show, a game film etc should leave the observer with a _personal_ choice even if it's only on a subconscious level. That choice is the same as the characters in the work of fiction have which is: To empathize or not? To hold on to blind hatred or not? Its called a meta emotional response. Most who played chose *not* to empathize or forgive so they hated it. Others chose to empathize and forgive(or at least try) and had a much more enjoyable experience. Remember it's not your story or mine. It's theirs. We just played through it.
@@taeminislove He learns to love her in this game. In the first game she's a stand in for his daughter. When I played the first game I noticed "Wow he's a total dick. If not for his daughter dying I wouldn't give a shit" I wasn't until the scene where he got injured did I start to care slightly and assumed Ellie would take up the majority of the rest of the story bc I had assumed he died. When we find out he's alive then tortures a guy then saves her I was like ok. The issue here is empathy is a game. It's interactive. If you really never wanted to like her then no force on earth would make you. I wanted to empathize *before* Joel died because as a programmer I knew otherwise it's wasted code. So I made a point to empathize. I did and enjoyed the game after. I was hurt that Joel died (needed a mental health day) but I wanted to know more about the person that did it. If I fought that I knew I wouldn't liked it. So I made a choice. It payed off for me.
Ellie and Joel took 1 year in game to develop their relationship. Lev and Abby swore enemies who's people killed each other in droves, 1 day.
You bind faster when your life is in danger, so you can’t discount that part
lev saved abby from getting gutted and hanged in their first meeting.
kgo40 and so did joel
@@jetli80 Joel saved Abby. They did not bond for life.
@@jetli80 in that year Joel and Ellie were in constant danger and constantly saved each other so again, 1 day doesn't make sense in abby and levs case
I honestly think that the game’s biggest flaw was showing Abby brutally killing Joel before showing her backstory, because of the organization of the story, we really don’t care if abby’s dad died because we already have a first horrid impression
Edit: bro why r their so many likes? I was politely informed to go shove my head under a tractor cuz I said this.😂
T4L0N EXACTLY! However Druckmann decided it was best to operate of shock not substance
Exactly.
but even her backstory was pointless she is a hypocrite like how many fathers has she killed killing for the fireflies but everybody supposed to care about her father that was a bigger asshole then her, hes literally just as bad as a nazi scientist willing to kill kids or any human to run his experiments, theres no cure that would ever get back to humanity after 20 years of living in a zombie apocalypse, they wouldve only used the cure if ii would even work on themselves & to gain power over everybody, they just made her gameplay to try to make her out to be a good person outside of killing joel but shes not, joel never killed for revenge or cause he liked to do it, he did what he had to do to survive & save the people he cared about, he never took any pleasure in killing anybody even killing abby's father, he only did that cause he wouldnt let him take ellie & pulled a weapon on him , they even made it a point to make ellie look bad over abby by having her kill dogs, people she kills cry out as they die & killing a pregnant woman she didnt know was pregnant & attacked her first while abby just has people trying to kill her & they die right away never cry out like when ellie kills them, never has kills any animals only helps save them with her father & they throw that kid in to try showing abby as a strong mother figure
mike mcwilliams Thats the whole theme of the game. Nobody is necessarily the good or boy guy. Everyone has a backstory, and the enemies in their backstory have their own backstory too.
Yeah and with that introduction to her character we’re not going to care about her later on despite what Druckmann wants
Nora:How many people are dead because of him?
Me:How many people are dead because what Abby did?
Only the scars apparently but tbh those guys are physcopaths
At least when Joel kills, he did it out of necessity, not some sick pleasure filled revenge like one psychotic individual.
@@mryoung6090 yup but he didnt kill him for sadistic pleasure, he wanted to protect his kid.
@@mryoung6090 so she hunted down an old man for cookies!?
@@ghuttsmckenzie4269 He killed innocent people for 20 years
Why do people think Abby did something good? I understand that he killed her Father but damn, I wouldn’t even hunt down the guy and torture him. Joel didn’t torture her father he quickly killed him for in his and my mind a good thing.
Only after the man pulled out a scalpel on his proclaiming he wont let him take her like a condescending messiah complex degernate. Abbys retconned father was a piece of shit anyway since a vaccine couldnt be mass produced with their lack of equipment (if they actually succeeded) and seeing as the fireflies didnt even pay joel his promised guns and escorted him out without his gear like he was a loose end shows their real intentions was to hoard it for power. Abby is a irredeemable ruthless bloodthirsty bandit indeed and number one killer in degenerate wlf, so idk why people try to sympathize with her or defend this story when it retcons and whitewashes a lot from the first game.
That is what i am saying as well!
Well done for saying this.
Yes but he also prevented the cure for mankind so I think Abby thinks she’s not just avenging her father but she’s avenging mankind. I definitely didn’t agree with her but I think that’s what she was thinking
Daniel Mulhern then why didn’t Abby try to continue what the fireflies started? Yknow finding a cure? Although there is none.Key word is CHANCE, there was a CHANCE of a VACCINE (key word is VACCINE),a vaccine is not a cure and even if they did have a cure,who would use it? The military!?! The fireflies were a rebellion group, so were they gonna save it for themselves? There was already groups and communities of survivors, in this world there is nothing a cure can fix.Clickers will still exist and be around....people would still be dead or infected, and people have been in this pandemic for so long that they’ve learned to live that way....to kill.All of this at the cost of a fourteen year old girl’s life, she’s survived for that long, no point in killing her especially if the vaccine doesn’t work and they kill the only immune girl (or at least the only one we know of who’s left)
@@danielmulhern6085 What cure? It was a slim chance at a vaccine, did you totally ignore my comment when that was my boggest argument? Other immune victims failed to create a vaccine, ellie would have likely died for nothing and even if they succeeded with her, they didn't have the equipment to mass produce, nor did those power hungry terrorists ever intend to. Stop whitewashing and retconning shit.
There was no definite answer on if killing Ellie would develop a cure. There was a chance but nothing more. So Ellie could have died for nothing if Joel let it happen
And “it can’t be for nothing”
Matt D the chance is even more doubtful when you consider that Abby’s dad would have only just left med school on outbreak day let alone be an expert in enough medical fields to pull of the make a vaccine /cure and that’s before you consider the difficulty in making large scale amounts of it.
Even if it's 100% sure Joel would've done the same thing. He sees no point on saving humanity. Humanity made him suffer a lot during the 20 years(fedra,survivors) plus they took Sarah from him...I think thats why he offered Tess and then Ellie to just abandon this quest
Yeah and how would they mass produce the vaccine? Think if the power the fireflies would have had. I just think it's bad writing that Joel never fully explained himself and that ellie would be mad at him for saving her life
@@Aeneiden
It's not bad writing, it's just you all are putting way too much into it. You can literally poke holes in every story that's been made. Whether it's movies, TV shows, books or games. Why? Because they're fantasy. They're not meant to be 100% logical. Hell, even in real life people make illogical decisions all the time, so why should fantasy be any different?
Cure was never a guarantee. Ellie would most likely have died for nothing.
Neil has said the cure was a guarantee in a Q&A, which I think is dumb, but that's his version.
@Aliyah i watched it. I was talking about Neil. Yes, cures for viruses, but the host needs to be alive, like Game Theory says. Neil said the surgery to kill Ellie would guarantee a cure. So that's contradictory.
@@psychedelicyeti6053 Not even Neil gets to rewrite the original at this point. Not after it's been out for 7 years. If he wants to rewrite something, he can do it as many times as he wants BEFORE it's released. Also, Han shot first.
@@psychedelicyeti6053 fuck Neil. I hereby declare death of the author theory!
Han was getting kidnap his shot was justified
Joel: a good earner. Looks after his people despite at times being opposed to them.
Abby: Revenge driven Ray Skywalker fanfiction character.
💀💀 u aren’t even wrong
Kayt Murray YES HE IS LOOOL
@Crazy Cletus ha. Metacritic is a joke of a site. Critics don't know shit when it comes to movies or games. (Ex. They scored Jurassic park a D).
@Crazy Cletus pls get a doctor
Feminism bad
The cure was never guaranteed
Yourpapiyeet 123
They say a “vaccine” there’s a MASSIVE difference between a vaccine and a cure.
Neil drunkmann said in a q&a that it would have work
shayla
He can say anything but realistically it’s still bullshit.
Rosani Rodrigues there is no cure for fungi infection like the cordyceps in the real world.
@@shayla7683 I'm pretty sure he said this after lou2 and it was because he was trying to justify Joel being a bad person even more
So that we could sympathise with her
Abby: Psychotic. Does not reflect on her actions: Neither positive or negative. Does stupid inconsistent shit, because the plot demands it. Bland personality ala Bella Swan. Plot Armor the size of her biceps. Remains the same throughout her entire story. We learn her story through bland emotionless flashbacks.
Joel: Flawed man. An Anti-Hero, essentially. Given a chance at redemption and takes it. Grows over his story and learns compassion. GETS SKEWERED BY A REBAR (if that is what is called). Learns to love Ellie, and in turn we learned to love her too. He kills the Fireflies after they gave him no choice in the matter and refused to let him say goodbye. He didn't WANT to kill Marlene, but HAD to, to protect Ellie. Lying to Ellie, actually pains him.
We learn about his relationship with Sarah through emotional conversations between him and other characters that made us care for him and mourn Sarah even more.
You're right bro
Evil is not something that can transform to good. Joel was a bad guy at the start but he was NEVER Evil. DAVID! Now thats an evil character in this game. Those hunters chopping up bodies and eating them...THEY ARE EVIL. Not Joel
@@robogreek3157 hm... you are correct... i meant evil more in the context of ruthlessness.
ROBO GREEK yeah and Troy Baker making that comment that Joel and David could have been mirror images of each other was so dumb... like remember all those times Joel ate people 👍😂
Matthew Thomason or when Joel nearly raped a 14 year old gi-oh wait....that was also David too. Nevermind.
I think a major part of why people love Joel and hate Abby is actually down to the psychology of first impressions. Joel is not a good guy, but you LIKE him because your first impression was seeing him with his daughter and how the death of his daughter affected him. Abby has probably done less bad things than Joel did, but you DISLIKE her because your first impression was seeing her beat someone to death that you care about.
First impressions last long, as the saying goes.
You only get to make a first impression once, and if you do it completely wrong, it's over.
Exactly! What was our first impression of Joel? That he was a man who loved his daughter and little brother and despite him telling Tommy to leave that family behind, you could understood that he did that because he wanted his family safe above all else.
When Sarah died, you felt sorrow for the man (I'm sure some of you cried as well) and you can tell despite 20 years of being a survivor and definitely doing bad things to innocent people, that there was still a decent man underneath it all, which through Ellie, we see more and more of.
Abby. Our first impression of her is her ruthlessly torturing and killing someone that we liked and cared for then has the gall to be pissed off at Ellie and Tommy for wanting revenge against her even she killed Joel because of revenge.
This, motherfucking this! We all saw that Joel, from the beginning, was put into a world where he was left with no choice and all the hell that he went through for over 20 years.
yeah, that´s why I think Abby wasn´t a bad person, she had her reasons... Joel did worse things than her, and guess what, he had his reasons too... But one of the greatest lessons of this game is that every action has a reaction, in Abby´s case, she lost almost everything for the things she has done. In Joel´s case, he lost his life...
Actually no, Joel teaches Ellie to hold her anger back specially in the Machete swinging scene. Survivavility comes first but control is essential to it.
Abby is basically The walking deads Paúl, the governor. She also gets her allies killed, and as he Puts it an actual villain a true primal cruel being.
Simple: Joel was well developed, Abby wasn't.
I think if they would have introduced Abby and her dad in the first game like a little section we had with same he could have had more time to understand her
abby big bad character, me asking ok but why. joel kill dad make abby mad. me over here like seriously is that all the reason.
@@demonpride1975 bc she did exactly what Ellie did, they both went on a quick for revenge over the death of they’re fathers without actually even knowing why they’re fathers were killed in the first place. I hated her the first play through but when I replayed it I learned she simply did what any person in that situation with that limited amount of knowledge would do- both Ellie and Abby still don’t even know why Joel killed Jerry and why Abby killed Joel. I can’t hate on a character even if she took my beloved character from me knowing she was doing what we’d all do
@@demonpride1975 not really Joel stole a cure from the world in That hospital- ofc it wouldn’t have worked but Abby’s dad lost likely assured her it would and hid the fact that he was gonna kill a girl without her permission therefore rendering him an “innocent doctor” in her eyes
@@demonpride1975 are you retarded?
Thank you for making this video! I didn't mind Abby in the beginning. Even after she killed Joel the way that she did, I was willing to see her side. But the more I learned about her, the less I liked her, for all the reasons mentioned here.
I think the hate towards her, especially in the beginning, was unwarranted. The hate she got was for the wrong reasons.
A lot of people like to tell me, "at least Abby spared Ellie twice" not remembering Ellie was about to give up on her quest right before Abby came back, killing Jesse and severely injured Tommy. Abby clearly did not learn her lesson and only spared her because of Lev. Abby never showed compassion or remorse.
A simple tweak would be Abby having her nightmare, showing revenge didn't help her get over her father's death. But when she walks to the dead body and flips it over, instead of seeing her father, she sees Joel. And then Manny wakes her up, just how it happened in the game.
Instead, we got nothing.
Here's the thing....
Imagine Ellie dies, a cure is made.
Now envision the human's that exist.
A cure fixes nothing.
@@NCA_Azzy I'm not sure where you got that from my message. But I agree that killing Ellie to find a cure was not the way to go about it. They would need a host that has antibodies to be alive, not kill the host, in this case, Ellie.
Psychedelic Yeti I think it refers to the type of people that are left alive. Even if there was a cure the world and the people have changed into survival mode. Aggressive and Murders thrive in this society. As you can see with Abby getting to live and Ellie being scarred and damaged. A world without the virus would not cause the cycle of violence and fear to disappear (as we can see in the constant conflict of today) it would probably even be worse than the type of conflict we see in modern society
Because Abby killed a beloved character and Joel saved a beloved character.
That is so perfectly worded
Message of this game, revenge is okay as long as you get away with it. Or in Ellie's case emotionally and physically scarred for life. seriously who proofread this stupid game?
Misty Miller that’s not the message
Misty Miller sry that u had trouble comprehending but the message is you can get revenge but at it’ll cost you for Ellie she lost her family tommy and her morality
Mercy Main360 Ellie didn’t get revenge tho? I like this game but they favored Abby, Abby only cares about Owen and manny tbh. And Abby didn’t “learn” she got revenge on Joel and then she switched up on her on faction and never forgave Joel, or realized the other side of the story but Ellie had to. It’s hard to swallow but Ellie became the bigger man, or women. Ellie learned and grew up but Abby didn’t and Abby got her revenge. They try to teach this revenge thing but Abby didn’t learn. It’s more about Ellie learning to forgive but it’s frustrating that Ellie had to and Abby didn’t. Ellie could barely kill Nora, it haunted her and Abby had no affect from it. You clearly don’t see what people mean, don’t insult this person because you couldn’t see his side.
@@gmailhmmm2850 Abby lost her friends due to her selfish reason to get revenge. Ellie lost Jesse, her fingers/connection to Joel, sacrificed her family with Dina, and Tommy is a shell of who he was. And she did not get revenge. She kept her humanity by letting Abby go, which she was about to do at the theater before any of the above happened.
(Except considering how many people she killed to get to Abby, the execution of the game to drill that moral lesson was very stupid)
@@gioootalks4850 Before the time-skip, Abby and Ellie fought , where Dina and Ellie where left off badly injured. Abby could have easily killed both of them but decided not to, and simply told Ellie "I don't want to ever see you again" and parted away. Won't you consider that mercy? Seems Like that moment went over your head.
The thing is its risky killing a good character and it is a high risk high reward play and needs to be done carefully. no one minded when need stark was killed or the red wedding because it was good writing.
They advertised it was gonna be a Joel and ellie story and killed joel quick and then forced us to play as the killer for most of the game. And they made abby some buff annoying chick that I've never seen a personality like hers in real life.
Waste of a game. It's really only propped up by TLOU 1. How well would this game be if it was standing by itself?
Imo, i think this game wouldve been better if it was standing by itself. Because we'd have no connection to the person who dies (Joel) . I think this game is bad because of the connection to the first game
DylwolfPlayz for a good chunk of the game your only focus is abby and her shit, and if THATS what would be offered then it would suck even more because the story is bad, the infected take back seat here more so than the first, and one linear city as a setting is not all that interesting ... it benefits from the first like a leech
you can't say that, abby is a strong independent........ hahahaha i couldn't finish that sentence with a straight face. yeah your right.
Its simple, Joel is well written and well fleshed out character that we can relate to even when we do not agree with his actions. abby is a terribly written and inconsistent character, she constantly wavers from psychopathic to angelic, her good and bad side do not blend together well. it's as though she is two characters at once. she's basically a bootleg Joel.
And their is a high probability that her plot will be the MAIN in part 3 - in which I probably won't play ever play.. The game ended for me at part 1. Thanks ND! :)
I can think of two good reasons why Abby isn't likable:
1) She doesn't want to understand that her father was going to kill an innocent child (Ellie)
2) Abby slept with Owen when she knew full well that he was in a relationship
Also, Joel saved her.
She is self centred. Only cares about her interests.
Shows no remorse for her doings.
Has no personality
Is the shittiest character ever written in a video game
Thinks she is great for sparing Ellie while the only reason that happened is Owen and Lev.
Doesn’t hesitate to kill people that lived with her for years
3. She killed Joel
Abby is a homewrecker for Mel, an 8 month pregnant woman in the apocalypse. How could she ever be likeable to anyone who cared about others?
@@AB-qc3qe Even Mica Bell in Rockstars Red Dead Redemption 2 is more likable
I don't think anybody cares at all about that stuff. People hated Abby because she killed Joel, plain and simple. Abby's part of the game is actually great and playing from her POV after Ellie's was brilliant
Short answer is: Joel actually had a personality, other than Abby, who's personality is just "me big woman who kill man who kill dad, me strong.", we literally watch Joel lose his daughter, his romantic interest, we see him get beaten, shot at, impaled, we see him and Ellie bond and grow as characters, meanwhile Abby is seen for 2 hours, and already she kills the fan bases favorite character with no back story, no characteristics, nothing.
The way you describe Abby is like how an OC just replaced the main character's place in the story.
I mean if you played TLOU2, you did watch Abby lose her father and her romantic interest. You see her beaten, strung up, shot at, and almost literally crucified. We see the complexity of her relationship with Owen and his wife, only to have them taken away by Ellie. We see her bond with Lev, and struggle to survive the blind hatred of their respective factions. If you don’t want to see Abby as anything but Joel’s killer, you’ve missed the point of the game, and the real reason that Ellie didn’t kill her at the end.
@@alvaradoac21 OK, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and yes she has more characteristics than I saw at first glance, but the problem still stands, look at TLoU 1, the very first character we play as is Sarah, and she dies within the first hour, maybe less of the game, yet we still feel sad for her and Joel because she was a well developed, well written character that we actually cared about, then there's Abby, we get to see her once or twice within the first two hours, and in those two hours we learn that she's strong, and has a relationship with a character we don't even know yet, and then she continues to kill the most loved character from the first game (in a rather stupid way if you actually look at how cautious Joel is in the first game), and then the game forces us to play as her, still without any knowledge of her back story, and expects us to sympathize with this character, maybe if they showed us playing as her from the beginning, walking into the hospital room and finding her dad killed by Joel, and then fast forwarded to present day where we're hunting Joel, I would've actually had time to get to know, and actually attach with this character, but instead we get this mixed up, all over the place plot line that they, for some reason, expect people to understand and sympathize with.
@@alvaradoac21 You see all that happen after she kills Joel. Which, by the way, she had no characteristics that we knew of at that moment in time.
Commit Mozambique yea true the way they told the story is narratively ambitious. However, the story as a whole is depressing and beautiful.
Joel and Ellie's relationship was believable and earned. Abby and Lev was just shoved together. Also helping someone doesn't absolve you from your horrible actions. She forced Ellie to watch Joel get murdered. But she likes dogs and he dad was killed by Joel. Yea, but Joel killed her father to save a loved one it doesn't justify it but he did it for a reason. He never took enjoyment in what he did, Abby did. She took joy in beating Joel to death then felt she was above the consequences of that murder.
Abby is the _only_ person in the whole series who killed someone out of spite. She started the cycle and she got away with it.
Yes, Joel killed innocent people, but it was always for survival/to protect Ellie. The Hunters in the first game, though terrible people, killed innocent travelers and stripped them bare for their belongings. The Fireflies, the group Jerry and Abby were apart of, killed _countless_ innocent people, all in order to survive and find a cure. Even David's group, though f*cked up, killed people for FOOD. Every single person in TLoU universe did terrible things to survive. Abby didn't kill Joel to survive, she killed him for her own petty revenge.
I meeean... Joel's action is the initial cause of the cycle and ONLY because of his own selfishness as Ellie didn´t want to be rescued. Which is kind of hard to swallow but it really does wonders for his arc in the first game (I love Joel's character and the game is one of my all-time favourites).
But this leads me to Abby's story. You can´t tell me that Abby's reasons are not justified for wanting to kill the person who murdered the person closest to her. Someone who has been there for her whole life. if Joel would have been in that position he would've done the same, no question. Likewise, Ellie (Aka the plot of tlou2). She literally kills numerous people out of spite.
@@bjarturr
You could literally say that about every character in the series. How many people has Abby killed working for the WLF? How many people has Owen killed? Mel? Nora? How about Marlene? How about Tommy? This entire concept is ridiculous because _everyone_ in TLoU universe has blood on their hands and _everyone_ has reasons to take revenge. _Everyone_ will also kill again, or they'll be killed, because that's the universe they're living in. But Abby is the first character in the series that kills out of spite, and that's why so many people hate her. Owen even says, "My folks were killed, but I didn't hunt down their killers and torture them to death."
@@kirikakirikakirika Yes, that is correct. I totally understand why Abby is hated over Joel (Although I don't think it is justified) and I believe that the world of TLoU is a morally fucked up one where everyone has blood on their hands. There is nothing in my reply that says otherwise.
My points were replies to your first two sentences where you state that Abby is the ONLY person in the whole series who kills out of spite (I see that you changed the "only" to "first" in your reply so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that the second one was your initial point to begin with. Although, I believe Tess was the first person in the series to kill via petty revenge after Robert sells her guns) and that Abby was the one who kickstarted the cycle.
Both Joel's and Abby's actions are deeply personal and selfish. Joel saves Ellie because HE can't fathom losing another daughter figure (Who didn't even want to be rescued may I add) and Abby kills the guy who's responsible for killing HER father. Joel saves Ellie because he loves her and Abby avenges her father because she loved him. I find it strange how people can blindly justify Joel's action and then not see Abby's side in a similar way. They are both morally wrong but it's just the world they live in.
Yes, Abby's actions are petty, but how's Abby mentally following the murder? She is still haunted by Jerry's death and realizes that killing Joel didn't resolve anything. She knows she fucked up and the main chunk of her story is her coming to terms with that.
They are both flawed people but great characters.
@@bjarturr
No, I meant what I said. As far as we see and as far as we're told, Abby _is_ the only person in the entire series who kills out of spite. Ellie follows soon after, but up _until_ that point, it all started with Abby. Everyone else kills out of love or survival. Tess killed Robert because he was a threat to her survival, stole her guns, and tried to have her killed. She even says, "This can't happen again." Everyone's reasoning is twisted, like David and his group eating humans, for example, but that's just the world of the apocalypse. You do what you think you have to or you die. Joel wasn't a threat to anyone's survival by the events of TLoU2. He even saved Abby's ungrateful life.
You say Abby killed out of love, but that was just her excuse. _No one_ benefitted from Joel's death, while Joel saving Ellie benefitted her life and all the people connected to her. Despite her moping, she was _happy_ to be alive. She fell in love and started a family. Was Joel wrong to save her? Sure, I can concede to that (even though a cure was never guaranteed and realistically impossible), but we all _understand_ why he did it. Any father would, including Jerry. They didn't even ask Ellie for permission, and they weren't going to.
The second game actually retconned a lot of unnecessary absolutes that completely ruined the open-endedness of the first game. Like whether Ellie truly believed Joel's lie or not. Still, Joel did what he did to _save_ a life. Abby didn't save anyone's life. All she did was ruin them, and not to anyone's benefit. Now, if Abby and her little posse crossed three clicker-infested states while they were in the middle of a war (hilarious) to get Ellie back in hopes of finding a cure, we'd be having a different conversation, but it was solely out of revenge, which is honestly so weak for a plot set in this universe.
You also just verified that Joel died for absolutely nothing. You're right, his death _didn't_ bring her peace, but throughout the whole game she repeatedly _justifies_ killing him and never once apologises for it. Her self-righteous attitude is actually quite nauseating. Of course, I guess she wouldn't feel too bad considering she _encouraged_ her father to kill Ellie, too. Halfway through, after she finds Lev, she pretty much _forgets_ about Joel. Yet she later has the audacity to forgive herself, as if she's entitled to do so. And the same can be said for Ellie, too. Neither one of them had that right after everything they did.
Still, the difference between Abby and Joel is massive, especially in the fact that Joel _never_ enjoyed hurting people, while Abby "I'd like to beat that prisoner to blow of some steam and GOOD I'm glad she's pregnant lemme slit her thorat" Anderson seems to revel in it. It's just bad writing full of bad characters who are trying to shove an overdone message down your throat. Even Laura Bailey (the actress who played Abby) didn't like her, said she struggled with the role, and said she "isn't meant" to be liked, which is in direct conflict with what Neil Druckmann said. Yikes.
@@bjarturr actually Joel's actions are justified I don't think he done it out of selfish needs he would have never got to say goodbye to Ellie nor did Ellie give consent and I think everyone who agrees with the cure thing are ignorant even Ellie because you can have anti bodies for cordycep spores she has something specificly designed in her brain to protect her from the spores infecting her but also you would have immune people but nothing would change everything would still be the same no difference either way humanity was f**ked all over already and I believe there was already a way to extract it without killing her which I watched from a RUclips video somewhere and who is to say the vaccine would be distributed world wide . And even if you had immune people they can still die Ellie is immune but can still get ripped and two by the infected
Joel did things out of the sense of survival but also did them because he did them out of sympathy for himself and others(ones he loved) he was merely a man who has to abandon his humanity to make the decision he thought was best for him and Ellie but also did it when he saw past peoples bullsh*t Abby did things out of the sense of revenge and even convinced. Her father to go through with the surgery because of her ideology and utilitarianism on the subject but not once did she try to tell her father to consider both Ellie and Joel's consent and perspective so there would be no loose ends and they paid the price for their poor lack of decision making and deep research on understand whether or not a cure would even save the world from all the destruction that's all ready done and she got all her friends killed because of her selfish actions
One of the reasons people gave this game a bad review is not only because the story is bad but also because the critics are clearly giving this game fake reviews like 10/10 and a masterpiece, that is the reason why a lot of people purposely gives the game a bad score cause we don't want the gaming industry to be filled with developers tricking the gamers into buying the game for the sake of profit
masterpieces are often dislike and misunderstood by their own generation, but give it time.
@@jodolls7270 its a good game but not a good last of us game
The game isn’t bad, and the story isn’t the worst. It was organized terribly. Abbys part should have involved her months long journey to Jackson, where we bond and learn to love her and her friends, she actually shows emotion but the reason for her journey isn’t revealed till right before it happens.
THEN switch to Ellie. And show her get revenge.
This game should have been 3x longer to actually show character development in Abby.
@@jodolls7270 being disliked and being an incoherent mess is two different things
@@kevindellatore well said
In Red Dead Redemption 2
Can you imagine Micah kill Arthur, and you got to play as Micah?
You right, hell no
What? You know you can make micah spares him if you honor is high
They should have teamed up Abby and Ellie. Instead we have the most revengeful scenario.
@Zeus Thats what they fucking showed in the trailers, im so pissed how they tricked me with playing Abby for the half...
Ik it would of been cool if at the end the rattlers come to kill them and they work together
What would the story be about then?
It would have been better if Abby was a new supporting character and that she joined the Jackson community. Jackson Community would be attacked by the Seraphites and Rattlers. Joel, Tommy, Ellie and Abby would fight them off. That would have been better instead of a mindless plot action
Street Fighter I would enjoy a game before the outbreak, Joel working a 9-5 job than this hot pile of garbage.
The worst thing is you can't say anything about your impression without being assaulted by extreme lovers or haters
I agree I like Abby and personally don't have a problem with her at first when she killed Joel I did not care at all but she personally grew on me sad thing is Im sometimes scared to share my opinion on the game because of how people overreact
@@mryoung6090 I didn't like the story, but still I don't want dead everyone that doesn't think the same
I just think that a lot of the hate the game gets comes from ignorance not opinion, you know? Like the things this guy is saying make no sense. She is supposed to be selfish its part of her character development. But at the end she grows to actually care for someone. Once you understand that and you still don't lile her character that's fine but at least respect the games story telling and development
@@geicogecko2048 of, you are so wise, you alone are smarter than the haters cobbled together, please, take your seat on the throne of ultimate critics!
Thor The Wolf I would say the throne would be for 200 IQ people like him
Joel did something people could understand, saving someone you love at the cost of the greater good. Abby killed for revenge and got away with it. It sounds simple because it is. A game about how revenge is bad yet allows the people who committed revenge to go free, confirming revenge is okay if you get away with it.
???? All her friends literally got killed because of it. They both went out for revenge and they both lost everything
@@FirstLast-ur6xt the problem your not seeing, abby doesn't see those people as her friends, to her they were an ends to a means. hence they carried no meaning or feeling to abby.
The ending of the game was disappointing and unsatisfying.
Well said. She was nothing more than a hypocritical manipulative character that the story could've done without.
Makes this even worse when you realise the ending was originally that Ellie actually DID drown Abby. But because of the “bond” Abby had with that kid they rewrote it
I would have preferred a CHOICE on whether or not we fucking drown that bitch.
Even if the consensus would be 'Heheheh Abby go Glub Glub'.
@@boxtank5288 hell no, a choice would've been worse, Abby should've died period
@@leobese1730 They say the ending was to deliver a message, that revenge is bad. But this is how I think that message could have been delivered better: Ellie does end up kill Abby, but in the epilogue, you see that she is taking into account all that she lost, like her fingers, Dina, Jesse, etc and wandering that abandoned house alone. This will show that although the revenge quest was successful, there were so many devastating repercussions. And then the ending will leave you questioning for yourself "was it all even worth it?"
Tony Tan The actual moral I take away from this game: “Revenge good. Never spare the person you are taking revenge from”
@@leobese1730 Thing is? It would have been better than default SPARING the bitch.
honestly. I would have actually liked Abby if the writers realized she was a bad person and portrayed her as a villain. It's like Negan, he does horrifying things, but the writers know he's a bad guy and portrays him as such. Thus I as a viewer am able to appreciate Negan for what he is and have come to like Negan as a villain.
They did do that. When Mel called her a piece of shit, she cries and kicks the chair because she knows how horrible she is. I wish the writers actually did more to show that. Because her saying good when she was about to kill pregnant Dina does not suggest that.
Negan has actual charisma. Liking him even though he does really bad things was effort. Liking Abby is impossible.
The writers literally acknowledge all of it…
Abby never said thank you when Ellie cut her down at the end
@@kiahdefoe Oh my god you are right Ellie should have said "Thank you" after beating her surrogate father to death in front of her as I was begging for you to stop, shooting her friend in front, Almost killed her pregnant girlfriend and taking away Tommy's eye oh and giving her PTSD making unable to eat properly. Also you can argue "OH Ellie killed her friends" she didn't hunt them down to kill them they tried to kill her Ellie just wanted Abby.
@@Paradomix Ellie still tried to kill her after she spared her twice TWICE
@@mryoung6090 She did that BECAUSE ABBY STARTED IT. She murdered Joel in front of her begging her to stop and got PTSD. Like Ellie said They should have killed her because there a fate WORSE than death.
Cha Magne how could Abby smile after seeing her father dead on the ground? I admit that it's something different since she didn't get to see him being killed like Ellie did with Joel, but that doesn't justify Joel's actions either. I'm quite sure if the roles were reversed and Joel was the doctor, Ellie his daugther while Abby would've been the one preventing the cure and killing Joel and the Fireflies, Ellie wouldn't have acted much differently. Except that Ellie might not have left Abby's friends alive and probably would've killed them too.
Paradomix - I don’t know why you’re so triggered by my response. So you think Abby should apologise but not Ellie? Personally, I don’t think either should. Naughty dog were clearly trying to show us throughout the game that Ellie and Abby were similar in different ways. They both had a similar sense of humour and there were a lot of parallels throughout the game. I think because we have a stronger relationship with Ellie, we sympathise with her more. But let’s be honest if the roles were reversed and Joel was killed as a surgeon tryna find a cure, you would want to find that person.
Joel is loved because Joel knew there is no vaccine for a fungal infection
“They laugh at us”
Over used but...funny
Abbys dad threatened to kill Joel if he tried to take Ellie; he didn’t give him much of a choice. Plus who tf in their right mind points a butter knife at someone with more artillery than an armory. Furthermore, Abbys dad was going to kill a child without her consent. No matter the reason(with or without consent); its still murder. Doctors who’ve reviewed the game have said that there are numerous ways to replicate the mutation and they WOULD NOT kill someone to make a vaccine. Which in reality wouldn’t do much to save the world anyway.
Joel risked his life to save Abby, who he didn’t even know. Still when she got the chance she didn’t hesitate to torture and kill him. She killed Ellie’s adoptive father in the most brutal possible way and made her watch. She killed Joel cause she thought it would fix all her problems but she ended up causing the deaths of dozens of people including her friends. She destroyed both Ellie’s and and Tommy’s lives, relationships, physical and mental health, the list goes on and on. She was ready to kill Dina even though Ellie told her she wasn’t involved and she was pregnant; to which she responded, ”Good”. And was about to kill her, Dina and her baby are alive only because Lev intercepted. Oh and she also screwed her pregnant friend’s boyfriend btw.
Abby is an awful person.
Change my mind.
(Good luck lol not gonna happen)
Couldn’t have said it better, Abby is a horrible person and a bad character and there’s nothing anybody can say to change my mind about it
Ikr Joel was stacked with weapons ffs he had a flame thrower tf was he gonna do with a butter knife
Because she killed Joel, that's why... Joel didn't kill Joel
That's fair enough fo me.
10/10 towels
This game is not for your age!
This video was great, been arguing with so many people as to why Abby is such a bad person. I can literally link them to this now 😁👍
I just gave up arguing
@@kaytamurray agreed, they defend retcons/contradictions of plot points of the first game and whitewash abbys retconned dad and the fireflies as saviours when we all new they were mistrustful terrorists for skimping joel out of his promised guns and nearly killing ellie for a slim chance at a vaccine they never would have mass produced.
Don't understand how anyone can relate to abby. Every time I ask someone who says that how they relate to a psychopathic hypocrite who kills friends and enemies alike they never reply to me, or say they don't feel like explaining it to another person. I think they just say they like abby to feel like they have a unique opinion, not a single normal person liked abby. I just played the game myself recently for the first time ever and I have to say the hate is more than justified.
How to make Abby a good character...... 1. Make Abby be alone so When Joel saves her and she sees why he did kill her father she would have second thoughts on the whole killing Joel and it would cause a whole lot of ptsd flashbacks and contemplating whether or not to do it they could do it with voices aka the call of the void to murder Joel but, throughout the game she sees that Joel did all he wanted to in order to survive and save his daughter also another change have Abby idolize her father so her hope for humanity dies with him so when she goes to Jackson that same hope lights up again. This would be a foil so that Abby knows that her father would be taking someone's daughter away without giving them a choice. Another small fix make it so Abby knows that it isn't a guarantee perhaps her father would give her a percentage make it at least below 50%. As Ellie we should learn more about Abby's past slowly piecing it together to when they figure it out they would obviously be extremely supicious and pull out a gun on her. This should get Abby kicked out for survival reasons.. At this part have the Joel flashbacks be current when they go out for whatever reason when they get in a very bad spot where Ellie can't get there in time to save Joel falling or something then someone shoots the clicker off of Ellie and grabs Joel then starts pulling him up then Ellie helps. Reveal it to be Abby and when they escape her and Joel can have a heart felt moment where they begin to understand each other so this conversation would give more confidence in Joel to talk about that day to Ellie leading to the end game talk at the house.
Except why would Joel tell some random girl why he killed Jerry, when he's not even willing to tell Ellie or Tommy why?
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Maybe he would if he learned that she is his daughter
Your right about all this, abbey doesn't care about anyone but her own selfish desires, i get that joel did some bad things but he had a purpose in his life he was supposed to take ellie to the fire flys to make a cure but fiding out it would cost ellie her life, joel did kill a lot of people but he didn't do it out of revenge he did it to rescue elie, thats it. But with abbey she did it because she wanted to make herself feel better she wasn't thinking about her friends safety, she just wanted revenge and after that she still wasn't thinking of her friends, and conversation with lev asking her why she came back, she said guilt, that part just pissed me off the fact that she only came back for guilt, image if she didn't feel guilt, the story just ruins the concept of the game and the characters it makes no sense and I can't seem to understand why naughty dog would think that this would be a good idea for a story.
I get that you hate Abby but to say she doesn't care about anyone but herself is completely false when she clearly shows compassion with her friends, the kids, and has even showed remorse by sparing Ellie twice
@@mryoung6090 the only reason she felt compassion is because of leb, she tried to kill a pregnant dina didn't show any compassion then, and the only reason she came back for the kids cos of guilt, she that herself, so yea
@@MrCallumWooding Ellie literally killed Mel, Abby obviously wanted to get Ellie back with that, this was obvious when she said "good". Your right about Abby saving those kids because of guilt btw I won't deny that. I also mentioned that she felt compassion for her friends and remorseful towards Ellie .....Abby hadn't even met Lev at this point so I don't know what you mean by he was the ONLY reason Abby felt compassion
@@mryoung6090 I get where your coming from but ellie didn't know mel was pregnant and when she found out after killing her she felt ashamed and guilty about it, abbey found out dina was she showed her true colours
If Abby didn't care about anyone, she never would have gone to that theater.
But dont forget.. Abby is "Good" and Joel and Ellie was evil..
That's not what the game was trying to show us.....
@@mryoung6090 That's how they were treated though
@@BlueSkullX how though Ellie only acted out of revenge and Joel did what he did to survive even though he still killed someone's father in the process
@@mryoung6090 Because throughout the game, people talked shit about Joel and treated him like he was evil. He was killed off in the first hour of the game and used as a plot device. This game has people thinking Ellie is wrong for wanting revenge even though they praise Abby for getting hers as if she delivered justice. You play a character that beats Joel and ellie both to a pulp. A character that shows zero remorse and doesn't even apologize when Ellie spares her life at the end. They have Ellie kill animals while Abby pets and play with them. Abby saves kids but Ellie threatens to kill Lev. They tried to copy Joel and Ellie's relationship with Abby and Lev after destroying Joel and Ellie's relationship. Both Joel and Ellie were written out of character so Abby could be seen in a good light. They lied to us and false advertised tf out of this game by telling us Joel would help Ellie with her revenge against the Seraphites that killed Dina. At least that's how it was supposed to go but that's not what happened.
And the lesson is morality is always subjective and varies from person to person. Like abby is a downright sociopath and Joel might not be a good person but he did what he could to survive.
I'm a say it...Abby is a bland, uninteresting character. She's a gender swapped generic military cliché💁🏽♂️
Abby's hated because she was eating all the food to get her gains
abby was never loved since murdering joel..
thats your only point in hating her, you’re actually close minded.
@@anthonypisarski9913 bruh
Detona Studios that isn’t an argument
@@anthonypisarski9913 There are sooooo many reasons not to like her. Killing Joel just happens to sit at the top of that list
@@anthonypisarski9913" everyone who hates Abby is close minded" dumbest shit i've ever heard
Am I the only one who “purposefully died” more than a few times while being forced to play Abby?
It was like spitting on players and true fans' faces when they've made us to play da bitch!
Me and my dad played this game. I died so many times as playing with her. My dad died twice the time I did, because you wanna know what? My dad actually understand the position Joel were in. Pray to god if someone tries the same thing on my little sister as they did tried on Ellie.
Never felt anything for abby or her crew after the joel killing. Wanted them dead the entire time.
Abby is a terrible character and a horrible person. She treated her friends like garbage, leaving them to die? seriously how can anyone relate or like this person. She literally left her friends to die while she went to save someone she knew for 1 day.
Joel might not be a good person, but he is a good character, in that you understand his actions, you know why he does it. Thats even more important if you have him do questionable things (which he did), especially if he does them for the right (in his opinion) reason. As long as the player understands it, it works. So he works as a character overall that you still root for.
Kind of like Thanos, who is a very good villain in Inifinity war, because the viewer gets his reasons. And he isn't even completely wrong, if you are honest.
Abby on the other hand lost any chance to be loved by me the moment she kills someone that actually just saved her life. She might have her reasons for it, but at the time you don't really know to much, he saves her, only to have her brutally kill him. You can't redeem her from that, emotionally thats something that won't work (at least, thats how I feel). Well besides the fact that she still shows little empathy later on.
But the whole game in my opinion has this issue. It is rather obvious that they wanted the player to feel bad about some things. It to me felt to manipulative, its to obvious how they make you kill a dog, just to show he's a "good boy" later. Or how you kill a pregnant person who attacks you.
I'm sorry game/developers: if you MAKE me kill the person or the dog out of self defense, I won't feel bad. Because you didn't give me any OPTION not to.
First impressions. Our first impression of Abbey is her brutally killing a character we grew to love in the first game...Gee...I wonder why gamers hated Abbey and had a tough time sympathizing with her and her need for vengeance. I liken this game to Sympathy for Mr Vengeance. It wants to do the same thing that movie did by telling a senseless revenge story that intertwines from two perspectives. The difference is that Sympathy for Mr Vengeance actually gives you a reason to maybe care about both protagonists and their motivations before they actually embark on their revenge path that will sadly and senselessly pit them against one another at some point. But you at least get to understand both men's motivations in that movie and you can at least maybe sympathize with the both of them as you come to the realization that there is no good and bad here. Just two people struck down by cruel ironic fate.
In TLOU2...the game literally opens with Abbey killing the character we all grew to love from the first game in a brutal senseless manner before actually giving her motive or reason or backstory. In this moment, we do not sympathize with Abbey...our sympathy lies with Ellie. As the game goes on, it tries to give us Abbey's backstory...but for many of us, we've already made up our mind on her. "She is the enemy. She took the person we actually cared about in a brutal fashion. Fuck her!"
It's a tough uphill battle and it's one that never paid off for me. I hated playing as Abbey. I did not care about her backstory. I felt they pulled every cheap manipulative shallow trick to try and make me care for her and they still failed. There was no redemption arc for Abbey. She had no remorse for killing Joel. There was no redemption. They try with her relationship with Lev but even that just feels shallow and manipulative.
Those first impressions stayed with me and I did not care one iota about Abbey. No matter how many cheap tricks they tried to win me over.
But really, everyone in this game is so terribly written. Ellie is terribly written. Tommy is downright illogical in his actions. Honestly, no one in this game came out well written.
Joel isn’t a good person but he’s not a bad person within the context of their world, and is likable. Abby is a hypocrite. She killed Joel after he saved her even though she claims that she always helps those who save her.
I think it would have been a better move to build the game around Abby chasing down the psycho who murdered her father, make you get close to her like you did Joel...then pull the rug at the end that Joel was the psycho. She was built up for half the game as the villain, while effective, does make it harder to empathize with her after the fact.
It all boils down to time spent with them. We’ve spent an entire game as Joel and an entire dlc campaign basically saving his life. We’ve connected and bonded with this character.
We play as Abby for like 30 minutes before she tortures and kills Joel.
The game doesn’t even let up connect with and bond with her character and friends before they kill Joel and then we’re back with Ellie.
The game just fails to make us care, I found myself laughing as Abby dying in different ways or getting terrified at the heights in the game.
Neil said that Abby kills Joel because Joel killed her father but the point is, we never knew that freaking surgeon in part 1 was Abby's father to begin with. If he planned to introduce her in part 2, then why not mention her or show something in part 1? Also, we never had an option in part one to spare the doctor and take Ellie, which would have made Abby irrelevant and made the game focus on survival and finding the cure. Now obviously we can't turn back time but why did Joel and Tommy even bother to put their lives at risk in saving a stranger being swamped by a horde, knowing that this is a survival horror game to begin with? No way would anyone sane do this is real life and I don't think both Joel and Tommy "knowing that they form part of the leadership in Jackson and they are two of the only 35 people in town who know how to fight" would do such a thing. The loss of these two professional experts would be a huge blow to Jackson's survival. Sure, people would gradually take their place but I mean how many people in that town actually have direct experience fighting zombies or gangs directly, whilst using military grade weapons? There's just too much at riskand I believe this would have also been in both their minds had this been a real scenario. However, if they had to help Abby, then they should have just saved Abby, taken her as far out to the Baldwin residence and left once she had got inside the gate. Furthermore, Joel and Tommy should not have gone into that room outnumbered and most importantly, they should have never given their names and they should have been the ones to ask and find out first why this group had travelled to Jackson. A famous quote from the Godfather when Vito scoulds Sonny is what he told him "never let anyone know what you're thinking". They should have just gone their own way once they were free of the zombies, instead of go into a room with other armed strangers and outnumbered. There's no logic or any common sense in the whole written script for this game. Neil really did one on us "fans" and I think we all need to do something to teach him a lesson, that we as fans and gamers as a whole have had enough of this bullshit from him and game developers alike who use and abuse us.
Abby is hated because he killed someone we loved. I don't care how much ND tries to make me sympathise with that character, I can't love someone who took said love away from me.
Naughty dog could have made a masterpiece but they made a game with a plot that makes no sense and characters that lack ambition
I don’t think that the human race would’ve been worthy of said cure, if they murdered a child to get it.
Joel got it and did what he had to do.
Abby thinks she would’ve wanted her father to make the cure, but these are just words, it wasn’t her life hanging on a thread on that table.
Yes, because what a select few do to develop DEFINITELY speaks for the entire population.
Abby is an immoral and terribly written character, but to say that Joel's decision to deprive humanity of a chance at salvation is foolish.
Choco Toasties Yes, it was a selfish decision on his part, no one argues with that. But it was also a selfish decision to murder someone else’s daughter to get a vaccine. Had it been Abby on that table, would the surgeon have done it? I don’t think so. But he was so willing when it didn’t concern him or his family.
I don’t know man. Maybe not the whole race, but these people definitely wouldn’t.
It wasn’t even the infected who killed Joel’s daughter. It was a human. And in this game some people are even more dangerous than the infected.
@@GPP0111 Ellie said she wanted to die she doesn't see it fair that she get to live and so many died and more people died because of Joel decision
She seemed pretty sure of herself
This video explains why people hate the way The Last of Us 2 was written. Good job dude!
I think because Joel comes up almost as a father figure. We saw him loose his daughter at the beginning of LOU1. As for Abby, we don't have a clue wtf she is supposed to be, she is a walking talking uncanny valley.
I don't think even Joel would call himself a good person but everything he did was for survival and those he cared about
Abby did everything for personal revenge
Joel showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever when killing Marline and the fireflies, even when she's on the floor begging to keep her alive.
Abby being motivated to do the right thing through guilt does not invalidate her from regretting her actions.
(Examples are her fight with Owen when she was called out, subtle jabs from Mel that she internalises, and her overall performance when killing Joel give a sense of unfulfillment)
Abby would very much rather keep these two kids alive (one of which is without an arm) that are in way more immediate danger than Owen and Mel as Tommy isn't even the one that killed them. Going back to warn them that someone is there wouldn't really matter because they are locked inside with no other entrance to their knowledge. And they have no way of knowing Tommy was even heading towards the aquarium, he's not telepathic
If Abby really only cared about herself, she wouldn't have gone after Lev as the game shows she absolved herself of guilt after day 2 (in the dream sequence of her dad smiling peacefully) so saving Lev is a purely selfless action at that point
Joel kidnapping Ellie at the end of the game was arguably more selfish because even Ellie wanted to go through with the surgery. And Tess wanted the cure so in that moment he was betraying her.
When Abby was holding the knife up to Dina, all she was thinking was "this person killed a pregnant woman is now telling me not to kill a pregnant woman" without any of the contex so of course she'll want to kill her at first before realising that the same shit is happening again and again.
I appreciate the video it was well made but i feel you overlooked some of these points that make the game coherent.
kidnapped? they attempted to kill her for a shot in the dark yet they never explained until after the fact that Ellie wanted it, ntm mention Abby smiled while attempting to kill a pregnant woman. just bc she didn't go through with it doesn't change the fact she enjoyed it
@@PapaWalterWhite she never smiled she said "good" through gritted teeth because Ellie also killed a pregnant woman
I cried when I saw Joel die
Why is Abby hated and Joel loved?
Simple, we got an entire game in the perspective of Joel and thus got to know and bond with Joel. The first game showed us him in a natural light that allowed us to relate to him. Abby, on the other hand, we are immediately taught to not-like her and the entire scene of Joel's death but then abruptly spend an entire 10 hours in her shoes killing the tension of what transpires between Ellie and Abby. Abby is forced into our hands as a main character when we really only see her as a pure antagonist.
I will admit, I was getting sick to my stomach the more I saw Alice being a good dog, and then remembering how easily I killed her as Ellie and how she just calls her a stupid dog.
Everyone else in Abby’s group especially Abby can be fungus food for all I care. I like to think it was not psychotic of me to continually fail when playing as Abby to watch her die in ever increasingly gruesome ways, and considered my game finished after Ellie executes her for the fifteenth time.
Also intentionally screwing up battling the Ratking got a good laugh out of me.
They forced Ellie to kill dogs in game play but not Abby because postmodernism Abby is the true good guy we are just brainwashed by the original game.. lol lol yeah that tactic didn't work on me. Though I admit as a cat person if they made Ellie kill feral cats I would just have stopped playing. Monsters at naughty dog forcing the player to kill dogs even when we're against this with no choice otherwise Is an assault against players I'd kill Abby sooner than the dogs they are innocent she isn't
Finally someone who understood who Abby is.
Thank you.
Well Joel did something that people could relate to. Abby killed solely for revenge.
Idk, if someone killed my dad, I’d also bludgeon them with a club
Joel killed because he had to
Abby killed because she wanted to
That's the difference between heroes like Ironman, Captain America, Superman, Wonder Woman, and many others, and the likes of psychopaths like The Punisher, Wolverine, Black Widow, Red Hood, Spawn, and other edgy and dark mass murderers.
Making Abby’s reason for revenge by making this nameless npc most didn’t even remember her father who wasn’t a character in the first game is the actual definition of retconning and it’s stupid
As Joel said in the first game, everyone has a family, he just doesn't dwell on it.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 And so does Joel. His saying applies to him just as well.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 By your logic, I guess that every single npc Joel killed (hunters, fireflies, soldiers, etc.) that has a child will come after Joel if they want revenge. That is contrived writing and a bs counterargument
@@willfanofmanyii3751 well then Abby better hope no child of the many scars or WLF soldiers that she has killed will come after her then.
@@ryanlynch715 Considering the WLF who knew Abby went awol were killed, and a majority of the Scar's village was burned to the ground with many slaughtered, and nobody there knowing Abby's name or even seeing her in general... doubt it.
You had my support the minute you sided with Joel In the title
Originally before a patch of the first game, it was stated that there were others who had a resilience to the Cordyceps but none were successful. A cure was never guaranteed originally.
And it was from fedra who were better supplied especially early during the apocalypse. Yet neil and other idiots are whitewashing the fireflies and saying they suddenly had a chance to make one when we saw they didnt have the equipment to mass produce nor the will since they couldnt even pay joel his promised guns and escorted him out without his loot. Joel was a hero because even if the fireflies had a vaccine, they for sure wouldn't mass produced it like fedra would have.
Except that's bullshit.
That the only thing I disliked about Abby's character, her hypocrisy. I understand why she killed Joel, he took her beloved father from her, was I in her place i would also be full of hate and rage, and after all we did sympathized with Ellie who also seeks to avenge the death of a father she loved in TLOU II. The problem is that Abby doesn't grasp the fact that she also robbed another girl from her father, and an ex-firefly from his older brother, and she as the gals to say "we let you live and you wasted it" no Abby, they did what you did, you did the right thing by letting them live because they had nothing to do with your revenge, but it was stupid for you to think that they wouldn't want to avenge Joel's death. In that situation, Abby lacked empathy, because she never thought about the fact that she inflicted on others the same pain she went through.
Abby may have been "a villain" but she didn't get away from her actions, in the end, she became a slave to the rattlers, and I bet she must have been through absolute hell during her time as a slave with Lev. She semed like a very different person at the end of the game when Ellie finds her .
I liked Abby but she was done dirty here. Yea, she should've died and she's selfish but if you play the game from her angle you can get where she's coming from. However, Ellie is just as right to want her dead as Abby wanting Joel dead. Honestly, they're all killers and having them kill each other is just expected.
Yeah, that's why I didn't hate the game, in the end Ellie did what Abby couldn't do, she let go of her revenge. how much heartbreak could have been avoided if Abby spared joel like Ellie spared her.
You said it perfectly. Joel is obviously no hero, but his actions have some justification and understanding, where as Abby is just a scatterbrain.
Joel is loved because although he's done terrible things, he only killed who he absolutely thought he had to, to survive or protect those he loved. He repeatedly shows self-loathing and remorse.
Abby is hated because she goes out of her way to not only behave cruelly and violently, and risks not just her own life, but all her friends lives for vengeance and vengeance alone.
And she didn't even know the reason why Joel killed her father. She didn't even want to hear his reason. Just wanted to satisfy her disgusting subhuman bloodlust and anger.
And she visibly enjoys it, even getting excited at the prospect of killing a pregnant woman.
This is why Joel is a good character that we love despite his faults. And why Abby's faults are too numerous and glaring to forgive.
Abby development was just so rush. Even raiden has better development is mgs 2. I get that neil try to do what kojima does on mgs 2 but it just dont work.
Joel saved both Ellie and Abby from certain death, even risking his own life to do so, wich makes him somewhat a hero. Abby in the other hand lured Joel into a trap and tortured and killed Joel without even questioning him after he saved her. Even some of Abby's friends seem to be uncomfortable by the way Abby handled the situation, wich is probably why Abby starts to feel a bit of guilt and try to redeem herself by rescuing those kids. But nah, I still don't like her for what she did to Joel.
ChilianaJones I would kill her any day, any time.
Yeah. The game tried to make Abby empathetic but her acts of redemption don't make up for her moral compass.
Nora is such contradictory character.
A medic who relishes on Joel’s death and insults Ellie in her face at gunpoint. Is a coward in the end when cornered and unable to see how Abby’s revenge is what caused her demise.
She hates Joel for robbing humanity of a cure and for killing so many people. Even though the Fireflies are arguably worse despite ‘noble’ intentions.
She lacks any common sense and integrity to survive in a post apocalyptic world. Why she’s even alive is beyond me.
Joel wasn’t seeking redemption but, unwillingly, found a small piece of it. Abby sought revenge and found it, became holy irrelevant. Black and white is easy. It’s the gray areas that beg us to question.
What made Joel such a good character was that he had principal. He did horrible things for survival and numb himself because losing Sarah was too much. He slaughtered the Fireflies to save Ellie because she was like a daughter to him, he could save Sarah but he could save Ellie. People may not agree with Joel but they understood why he did those things. Abby was understandable at the beginning, then we got to know her. She left her friends to die after seeing Tommy, you got that right. She could've warned them but choose not to. She turned on the WLF, people she considered family in an instant. Then that sick look she had when about to kill Dina. Ellie killed what's her name because she was going to kill her, what was she supposed to? Heck you had to do it to progress! The only missing infor you had was the note she left for Owen, but she could've saved Owen if she warned him. She choose not to. She's a terrible person and has a history of betraying people, Lev should be worried for his safety.
There’s no good and bad when it comes to protecting your love ones
i can't stand abby, the reasons you said obviously, but look at her. i mean do you know how much carbs you need to eat to bulk like that. where are they getting all this food simply for her.
they made her a hate filled roided character for politics. and that is the plain and simple truth. and i don't understand why other then women strong. i mean look at ellie she's not built like that, and still manages to survive over all these characters.
simply put the way they made abby was absolutely stupid.
It's a beat video I see about Abby,and honestly if game give us a chance for spare her or killing her, the only reason I could spare her life was because of Lev and nothing else. She was so selfish :/
Because we learnt Joel's backstory to understand is motivations for doing bad things. Naughty Dog expects you to like Abby AFTER doing horrible things, and those things happen to be killing off beloved characters without hesiation
Maybe Ellie didn't now she was going to die maybe she think she will live you now
Nah, she said something like "I had to die there", or something like it, at the end of 2. She knew she would die.
@@MaskOfLimbo She didn't know she would die, she learned that only after Joel told her about it...
She told Joel at the end of the original that she's still waiting for her turn to die.
WillFanofMany II but from the convo with Riley, we know Ellie wants to make the most out of her time left with the people she loves.
@@FERKILL377 I wrote that when I only saw the ending (as I WASN'T interested in seeing the entire game). After seeing a compilation of a dude progressively being bored the more he played (which was 2 hour, if I remember correctly, and had almost the entire game) I saw the scene you mentioned, and you right! Sorry my mistake.
I liked Abby and understood what she did, she was the good person in her story. Than I played her and I agree with your statements now. She hunted Joel for years then assumed his friends and family wouldn't do the same? Then she said letting Ellie live was a gift after killing Jesse, what an great person. Ellie was not saint either but Abby and her friends were just terrible. The pregnant one was the worst, slamming her belly into cages, going into active battle, and she's a doctor? Joel wasn't a terrible person, he did what he did to survive and saved Ellie from people who saw her as a thing. Heck Abby's father literally treated killing Ellie like operation the game. She was a child and showed so much excitement for ending her life? I related to Joel saving Ellie more than anything Abby did. I understood why she did it but the fact she felt she was above consequences was too much.
How? Please, explain how she is in ANY WAY a good person? 🤣
Edit: sorry, nvm, I should have read further lmao
The game's narrative is extremely manipulative, because it needed that, by the end, all the gamers cared about Abby as much as we cared about Joel in the first game, but (at least for me) if backfired horribly.
For starters, I would have never care about, even less like, a character that brutally murders one of my favorite characters in such a cowardly way (because, let's face it, Joel would have pulverized Abby in a hand to hand fight); then, she's shown to be a psychopath that doesn't feel regret and enjoys killing people (Mel addressed this by saying that Abby was the best Scar killer in the army).
Even when Ellie kills Owen and Mel, Abby just weeps over Owen's dead body, she doesn't even glance at Mel or shows any emotion towards her very pregnant "friend".
Joel was flawed, rough around the edges and very brutal, but still had some humanity left, still felt sympathy for people (he was actually shaken when Henry killed himself after he had to shot his own infected little brother) and he showed that, even thought it took a while, he could still love, and love so much, that he was willing to kill and lie and plot just to save the life of the little girl that became a daughter to him over the course of one year.
Abby is such a bland excuse for a "flawed hero", she didn't have any personality whatsoever, it was so irritating to hear her half truths and excuses, and her relationship with Lev was so forced and hollow, but I'm quite sure she's gonna be the new face for TLOU franchise and the new playable character for the next game (I just know that's what Neil Druckman is aiming for, a third TLOU with Abby as the only main character)
She does glance at Mel's body did you not see that and she didn't exactly have that type of friendly relationship towards Mel so why would she cry over her
If Abby didn't care about her friends, she never would have gone to that theater in a bloodlust rage and fucked everyone up.
TLOU3 you play as Abby but she gets infected with something new and it makes her fly and shoots lazers out of her eyes, oh and she gets a new costume and joins the avengers.
Why is nobody talking about the fact that Joel literally saved Abby from certain death. The least she could've done was not torture Joel that bitch!
Regardless of how most ppl feel about Abby, if someone kills your family member, you gon want revenge!!
Play it out she did by sparing Ellie twice and trying to talk Ellie away from their final fight.
@@Greyfox303, both times were forced. For the second time, she only stops because Lev wants her to stop. That does not count and you know it.
Dragonborn Express I love how you ignored the 1st time but yeah regardless of the why, she spared her twice. FACT. What your saying is like me saying I passed both my exams because my friend helped me study and then someone else saying “you didn’t really pass the exams because your friend helped you study” despite taking the exams independently. The how isn’t important, the result is.
Dragonborn Express and Ellie only spared Abby ironically to your point, because of Lev. She knew if she killed Abby this will continue a permanent cycle of vengeance which Lev would want on Ellie or her family. This is the same vengeance that caused death on Joel, Tommy and Abby’s friends. So to end the cycle, she didn’t kill Abby.
Realotismusic The first time is because of Owen.
IF THE LORD SOMEHOW GAVE ME A SECOND CHANCE AT THE MOMENT,I WILL DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think Abby’s story would have worked a little bit better if she was written to behave more like Negan or Askeladd in a way. Both are characters who are introduced killing another main character, but those two work, IMO, because the stories they’re in don’t try to make it seem like those two aren’t the terrible people they are. They fully embrace it and both characters have so much charisma that it’s hard to not enjoy having them around. Especially when Negan was the only thing making season 7 bearable to watch at one point. I don’t think Abby would work behaving exactly like those two characters, but I think Naughty Dog should have taken some notes from them if they wanted Abby to at least be somewhat of a likable or memorable character with the way they introduced her.
I liked this game but yes you made a lot of good points. The story was poorly written and clearly favors Abby. Anyone would sense who see she betrayed her closest friends without issue and will kill them in a second, which she did in on the Seraphite island. I never played part 1 so maybe that aided in my opinion but I did see your explain video and got an idea why people liked Joel. He acted like most would, putting someone he loved above everyone else. I understood why Abby killed him but she was such an unlikeable person. I really tried to like her but the emotional manipulation put by the developers was just insulting. Like waving keys in front of a child to get a reaction. I had fun playing the game but dear god, the writers who wrote this game need less yes men on their team because clearly someone thought they were writing something profound and no one questioned them on it.
9:40 THANK YOU!!!!! This is such a good point that isn't used enough when comparing Ellie and Abby!
Joel did the right thing there can be no cure for fungi and fireflies was just stupid people's
Abby makes the zombie more human than her.
While I loved "The Last of Us Part II" My biggest complaint was the game felt rushed and too many back storylines. They should have half of the game showing Ellie and Joel in Jackson and then have Abby's and her friends living in Seattle and dealing with the Scars be the second half. Then when Abby and her friends head to Jackson, the game ends. "The Last of US Part III" being Abby and her friends arrive in Jackson, They kills Joel, we learn about Abby's Dad and how Joel comes in and then we have the big showdown with Ellie and Abby's fight in the end.
Tlou2 is like playing mario and then the game wants you to play a random goomba’s child and take revenge against mario.