1 thing i ALWAYS do before anything else is delay my MAIN L/R PA by 6ms before anything else. This gives me room to move forward and backward in time if need be if ever you have to due placement as often happens at a large Festival when it's just go go go, points don't get put in the right place, ground stacks are way forward thanks to shit management by those directing local crews etc etc etc etc . In most cases, I don't have to use that "Buffer" but having it on many an occasion where you cant go back in time, works well enough that no one out front has any idea that you didn't actually bend the laws of physics at all, instead just thought the potential problem through before finding a HUGE problem you can't solve, 2 hours later!
@@nathanlively I used to do 5ms, thinking I'd never need 5, then once I did where the outfill was almost behind the main hangs and had real issue getting any low information into that part of the venue. So now I do 6 and never needed it since. !! Nothing more complicated than that. In all honesty when I've had to use that "buffer" it's rarely any more than 2.5ms remedy in most cases.
Thank you for the great video. If the subwoofer is behind the main speaker, should the time alignment of the front fill speaker still be compared to the time of the main speaker? Or Should the main and front fill speakers time-aligned based on the subwoofer?
Also you have the "good ol' days" method (trying to make it sound fun, I'm 28) wich involves just your ears ^^ Send your test signal with inverted polarity to your fills (or subs, or wathever you need to allign) and play with your delay untill they're completely in phase (you'll know cause the signals will cancell each other acoustically, or at least they will cancell each other the most, putting all other variables -reflections from the ground, ecc- in count) IMHO if you need to use "only" math, u're not considering too many factors, starting from the speed of sound changed by altitude, temperature and humidity, ending by unpractical measurement you'd need to be accurate, like the distances between mains and fills), this way at least we're taking all the not-ideal conditions in consideration ^^
@@trydiz sure ! ^^ A quick math question was already given, so I was trying to add to the subject ^^ Just to clarify, I'm exactly the guy who would measure everything - no matter how unpractical it would be - to have at least a matching value between my math an my "practice", but, again, I was trying to add another practical point of view ^^
@@nathanlivelysorry I should’ve been more specific. I use an AVR in my home theater, and want to use this method to time and phase align. Do I just use the distance setting in my AVR to achieve the delays? Since distance is basically the same thing as delay in an AVR
Hey Raul, I think I saw this question on another video. My understanding is that you are trying to decide if you should physically move the box or electronically delay it. Either will work. I don't know what Holmimpulse is.
Hi @Nathan Lively , thank you for the video. I have a question for you. How do you proceed when having maybe 5 stacks of FF? Do you set the same delay to each one? In that case, which stack would be your reference? Or do you set a different delay on each stack? In my experience I’ve met same amount of engineers applying each option...
Hey Rafael, do you have Bob McCarthy's book? I recommend you read section 14.4.6.2 Delay Dilemmas. I think you will find the answer your question there. You can then look at your different options and ask: Which choice will affect the maximum number of people?
Hey Koon, my answer to this question is this video. If that didn't answer it for you, then you may need to reach out to someone who specializes in mobile audio or Rational Acoustics.
Appreciate the videos @Nathan, I was hoping you could clear something for me. @1.33 when you start to find the spatial xover point initially where is ref and measurement delay value locked to, mains or the front fills. I mean the initial 5.33ms you have from the beginning of your video (its probably the latency of your demonstration setup in this case). Or would you turn on the FF and the mains and find the delay and let smaart locate which one is closer? Second question is would you just work on one side of the PA Eg: Mains Left and FF and just use the values for the right side or work on both L & R separately especially in the case where a mono out is used for the FF? Thanks
Hi Yamin! > when you start to find the spatial xover point initially where is ref and measurement delay value locked to, mains or the front fills. It doesn't mater. I could be either as long as you can peak both on the graph. > Or would you turn on the FF and the mains and find the delay and let smaart locate which one is closer? I just turn them on both together and hit the delay locator. It will pick the highest peak. Then, if I don't see two clear peaks on the screen I will zoom in or out or add some delay to one channel until I can see two clear peaks. > would you just work on one side of the PA Eg: Mains Left and FF and just use the values for the right side or work on both L & R separately especially in the case where a mono out is used for the FF? Yes, I am always measuring solo systems in this case: Main L vs Fill for example. If the system is symmetrical I will work on one side and then copy it over to the other. If it is asymmetrical, both sides need to be aligned independently. In the case of an asymmetrical system with a single processing output for all front-fills...yikes, I don't know...send me the design and we can look at it together.
hi Nathan Lively about your last video you posted on RUclips, I think that what you have nicely exposed in the last video is correct but, it should also be said that, not in all cases it is possible to obtain a total alignment of time and phase between main and fron fill using this impulse response technique. It can be For example in the case of totally different systems (2w, 3w and 4w) of design and brand. It would be profitable for your followers if you also explain this aspect. Do not you think ? I'm available for clarifications. 👋✌🏻😊
![How to phase align main+sub in Smaart® [GSwSST34.1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5leb1k4LUA0/mqdefault.jpg)
1 thing i ALWAYS do before anything else is delay my MAIN L/R PA by 6ms before anything else. This gives me room to move forward and backward in time if need be if ever you have to due placement as often happens at a large Festival when it's just go go go, points don't get put in the right place, ground stacks are way forward thanks to shit management by those directing local crews etc etc etc etc . In most cases, I don't have to use that "Buffer" but having it on many an occasion where you cant go back in time, works well enough that no one out front has any idea that you didn't actually bend the laws of physics at all, instead just thought the potential problem through before finding a HUGE problem you can't solve, 2 hours later!
Brilliant! Why 6ms?
@@nathanlively I used to do 5ms, thinking I'd never need 5, then once I did where the outfill was almost behind the main hangs and had real issue getting any low information into that part of the venue. So now I do 6 and never needed it since. !! Nothing more complicated than that. In all honesty when I've had to use that "buffer" it's rarely any more than 2.5ms remedy in most cases.
Thank you for this information. good to you, author
Thank you for the great video.
If the subwoofer is behind the main speaker, should the time alignment of the front fill speaker still be compared to the time of the main speaker? Or
Should the main and front fill speakers time-aligned based on the subwoofer?
Maybe this will help? ruclips.net/video/cvKcTdh-szA/видео.htmlsi=IaaeVkVFRpW-sCzm
If you don’t have smart and need to use front fills what should you do. If you have the math on how much delay is needed love to hear
Stand at the acoustic crossover point and measure the distance offset. Convert to milliseconds by multiplying by 0.9.
Also you have the "good ol' days" method (trying to make it sound fun, I'm 28) wich involves just your ears ^^
Send your test signal with inverted polarity to your fills (or subs, or wathever you need to allign) and play with your delay untill they're completely in phase (you'll know cause the signals will cancell each other acoustically, or at least they will cancell each other the most, putting all other variables -reflections from the ground, ecc- in count)
IMHO if you need to use "only" math, u're not considering too many factors, starting from the speed of sound changed by altitude, temperature and humidity, ending by unpractical measurement you'd need to be accurate, like the distances between mains and fills), this way at least we're taking all the not-ideal conditions in consideration ^^
@@ValerioAmedei I like your thinking on the subject, but have Alex do some math got to be better than no math at all.
@@trydiz sure ! ^^ A quick math question was already given, so I was trying to add to the subject ^^
Just to clarify, I'm exactly the guy who would measure everything - no matter how unpractical it would be - to have at least a matching value between my math an my "practice", but, again, I was trying to add another practical point of view ^^
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!! (not sure about your signature clang in the beginning, but maybe it's just me???)
Make me a new one! ;)
If this is for a home theater do I adjust the delays in my receiver
hmmm, unsure. You'll need to contact the manufacturer.
@@nathanlivelysorry I should’ve been more specific. I use an AVR in my home theater, and want to use this method to time and phase align. Do I just use the distance setting in my AVR to achieve the delays? Since distance is basically the same thing as delay in an AVR
Very interesting but I have a doubt. Is better to adjust phase electrically or acustically. Can I do it with Holmimpulse? With Smaart phase is a line
Hey Raul, I think I saw this question on another video. My understanding is that you are trying to decide if you should physically move the box or electronically delay it. Either will work.
I don't know what Holmimpulse is.
Hi @Nathan Lively , thank you for the video. I have a question for you. How do you proceed when having maybe 5 stacks of FF? Do you set the same delay to each one? In that case, which stack would be your reference? Or do you set a different delay on each stack? In my experience I’ve met same amount of engineers applying each option...
Hey Rafael, do you have Bob McCarthy's book? I recommend you read section 14.4.6.2 Delay Dilemmas. I think you will find the answer your question there.
You can then look at your different options and ask: Which choice will affect the maximum number of people?
Hi guys , I'm new smart key user.i just have a question regarding car audio time alignment, can you provide the step for the checking time alignment?
Hey Koon, my answer to this question is this video. If that didn't answer it for you, then you may need to reach out to someone who specializes in mobile audio or Rational Acoustics.
Is this being measured with a mic(s) only?
Hey Nicholas, yes, just 1 mic.
Appreciate the videos @Nathan, I was hoping you could clear something for me. @1.33 when you start to find the spatial xover point initially where is ref and measurement delay value locked to, mains or the front fills. I mean the initial 5.33ms you have from the beginning of your video (its probably the latency of your demonstration setup in this case). Or would you turn on the FF and the mains and find the delay and let smaart locate which one is closer?
Second question is would you just work on one side of the PA Eg: Mains Left and FF and just use the values for the right side or work on both L & R separately especially in the case where a mono out is used for the FF?
Thanks
Hi Yamin!
> when you start to find the spatial xover point initially where is ref and measurement delay value locked to, mains or the front fills.
It doesn't mater. I could be either as long as you can peak both on the graph.
> Or would you turn on the FF and the mains and find the delay and let smaart locate which one is closer?
I just turn them on both together and hit the delay locator. It will pick the highest peak. Then, if I don't see two clear peaks on the screen I will zoom in or out or add some delay to one channel until I can see two clear peaks.
> would you just work on one side of the PA Eg: Mains Left and FF and just use the values for the right side or work on both L & R separately especially in the case where a mono out is used for the FF?
Yes, I am always measuring solo systems in this case: Main L vs Fill for example. If the system is symmetrical I will work on one side and then copy it over to the other. If it is asymmetrical, both sides need to be aligned independently. In the case of an asymmetrical system with a single processing output for all front-fills...yikes, I don't know...send me the design and we can look at it together.
hi Nathan Lively
about your last video you posted on RUclips, I think that what you have nicely exposed in the last video is correct but, it should also be said that, not in all cases it is possible to obtain a total alignment of time and phase between main and fron fill using this impulse response technique. It can be For example in the case of totally different systems (2w, 3w and 4w) of design and brand. It would be profitable for your followers if you also explain this aspect. Do not you think ?
I'm available for clarifications. 👋✌🏻😊
Yes, I agree. While observing the Live IR will get you in the ballpark, you'll still want to verify matching magnitude.
How to time align in REW?
www.sounddesignlive.com/how-to-phase-align-main-to-sub-in-smaart-rew-open-sound-meter-satlive-and-crosslite/
Good video. But we Phase align not time align :-)
Hey Greg, thanks for checking out the video.
>Phase align not time align
Why have one when you can have both?