I understand from your video how you can find the handover region. Is it ok to align after the crossover filters are applied.. Its just that the phase trace shifts when my crossovers are applied (24db Butterworth @80htz)... Im guessing there will be no difference in aligning by delay... Im getting great results aligning with crossover applied
Hello Nathan. Thank You for videos, It gives me a lot of new informations. I have some questions: 1. Why phase of sub and main must be in 60 deegres? You mean that is the region, where two signals are adding? 2. When you searching for crossover region, why you offset traces with 10dB? I hope You understand my questions ;) Thanks in advance!
Hey Jakub, you're welcome! >Why phase of sub and main must be in 60 deegres? Wish matching amplitude and phase within 60º, you'll get at least 5dB of summation. >why you offset traces with 10dB? An offset of 10dB is the end of the Transition zone, if you are familiar with Bob McCarthy's summation zones. Summation inside of the Transition zone can range from +4 to -8dB. Of course, there is still interaction with 10-20dB, but it is +2 to -2dB, so we are less worried about it. You are free to use your own offsets for finding the crossover region, but within 10dB has the biggest opportunity for summation or cancellation.
Hye nathan.tq for very good tutorial on alogn sub and main but how do we align sub and line array speaker…is it put 4 line array speaker next to subwoofer or there are other ways
Hey At-tabrani, yes, that would probably be the most realistic way to practice the alignment. But I usually don't do that. The only thing that will change with adding more speakers is the level, which you'll ultimately end up accounting for in the room anyway. As long as you understand the relationship between the two sources and have some targets, you'll be ready.
Hello. Do I need to adjust phase electrically it acustically? I my case I have filtered only ripoles. I have 2 xovers in cascade, main a Marchand tube and later a Bss Omnidrive. This way I can not adjust time delay otherwise moving the bass modules. can I do wit Holmimpulse? With Smaart phase is a line
Hi Raúl! > Do I need to adjust phase electrically it acustically? You are free to use any and all means necessary to achieve the results you want. :) > can I do wit Holmimpulse? I'm not familiar with this word: Holmimpulse
Hey Nathan, but what about the delay tracker? do we use it or not? i see that your mic is very close and you have 10.38 ms of delay in the delay tracker window. Thanks!
hey. i have an analog mixer. then 31 band graphic Equalizer, 2 power amp QSC rmx 4050A, QSC rmx 1450A and 2 units of crossover Behringer cx3400. now I'm planning to buy a 4 channel oscilloscope with function generator. now my question is. may i used a function generator to phase align my speakers? the first crossover would be used for mid and high frequency speakers which is for qsc rmx 1450A then my another crossover would be for my qsc rmx4050A for my subwoofer and i will connect it to my mono out of my mixer. is it possible to used function generator to tuned and align my mixers , processor and amplifiers? sorry for long description.
Hey Carlo, I don't see anything wrong with that idea, but I think the best advice is to reach out the manufacturer and ask them to do. You can email QSC and ask them how they recommend that you complete the alignment. Personally, I would use a 2-channel audio analyzer to compare the phase, but that just because I more experience with that tool. Let me know how it goes.
Hey Aaron, we're going to cover this on Monday at the workshop: nathanlively.as.me/easy The short answer: If your speaker pair are designed to work together (phase aligned out of the box) AND you deploy them exactly the same way every time, then yes, you never have to worry about alignment. This will make you designs pretty rigid, though. I can see how this might make sense for an installed system, but then both speakers would need to be co-located.
Hey Nathan do I need to delay locate my mains and my sub separately? Or do I just need to delay locate the mains then figure out what delay is need for the sub to line up the phase traces?
Hey John, you'll need to do whatever is necessary to restore alignment, including physical placement, electronic delay, and/or filters. You should be fine with delay on one channel as long as that channel actually needs to arrive later and not earlier.
Nathan Lively thanks I guess to clarify exactly what I’m asking. Let’s say I have mains and subs who’s positions are fixed and cannot be moved. I am attempting to use a measurement mic and smaart to align them through the acoustic crossover region. In Smaart is it is obviously quite easy to delay locate the mains. This tends to place that measured data in a position that it’s easier to read. When I go to measure my sub next it seems like in general I do not want to try to delay locate that measurement in Smaart but instead leave whatever delay was found for the mains present and then from there figure out what processor delay is needed to align the traces as best as possible?
you use the find delay for synchronized the mic measurement with the reference channel for measure the top ok but when you measure the sub for compared with the top you do again find delay ? (sorry for my bad english...)
Hey ! I am sorry but there is a mistake in the info of your video: time = ΔPhase / (360 * Frequency) and not time = ΔPhase / 360 / ΔFrequency. All the best.
@@nathanlively Hello ! Well, 10mS is the time offset creating a 180° phase shift at 50Hz. 180/(360*50) = 180/ (18000) = 0.01. Actually using your formula I get the exact same result, mathematically we do actually the same operation, so my mistake but not really ;-)
Hi FreeKeenan, the reference is almost always set with the full-range source. By the way, I feel compelled to point out that browsing videos on YT is not the fastest way to get answers to your specific questions. If you can find a mentor or friend to train you locally, that would be a lot faster. Good luck in your search! :)
@@habdulahsalam The sub and the main speakers should be time aligned AND in phase when they are in the listening position. Time alignment is not the same thing as in phase. You can have two speakers working in phase with each other but they will not be time aligned if the distance from them to the listener is significantly different.
![How to verify main+sub alignment in Smaart® [GSwSST34]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KrtjzzyB9g8/mqdefault.jpg)
Bro this was like “look at this flip this magic” boom done
Best beginners explanation ever!
Helpful..Vid. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you man ! very easy to understand
Excellent! Great work!
Thank you! Cheers!
I understand from your video how you can find the handover region. Is it ok to align after the crossover filters are applied.. Its just that the phase trace shifts when my crossovers are applied (24db Butterworth @80htz)... Im guessing there will be no difference in aligning by delay... Im getting great results aligning with crossover applied
Hey Full Moon, yes, you should generally apply filter before alignment since then will cause some amount of phase shift.
Nathan Lively yes I noticed that, also any EQ changes in the crossover region also effect phase alignment.
Thanks Nathan, great work.
My pleasure!
Hello Nathan. Thank You for videos, It gives me a lot of new informations. I have some questions:
1. Why phase of sub and main must be in 60 deegres? You mean that is the region, where two signals are adding?
2. When you searching for crossover region, why you offset traces with 10dB?
I hope You understand my questions ;)
Thanks in advance!
Hey Jakub, you're welcome!
>Why phase of sub and main must be in 60 deegres?
Wish matching amplitude and phase within 60º, you'll get at least 5dB of summation.
>why you offset traces with 10dB?
An offset of 10dB is the end of the Transition zone, if you are familiar with Bob McCarthy's summation zones. Summation inside of the Transition zone can range from +4 to -8dB. Of course, there is still interaction with 10-20dB, but it is +2 to -2dB, so we are less worried about it. You are free to use your own offsets for finding the crossover region, but within 10dB has the biggest opportunity for summation or cancellation.
Hye nathan.tq for very good tutorial on alogn sub and main but how do we align sub and line array speaker…is it put 4 line array speaker next to subwoofer or there are other ways
Hey At-tabrani, yes, that would probably be the most realistic way to practice the alignment. But I usually don't do that. The only thing that will change with adding more speakers is the level, which you'll ultimately end up accounting for in the room anyway. As long as you understand the relationship between the two sources and have some targets, you'll be ready.
Nice
If you adopt this method and alter the level of the subwoofer, will it result in a change in the crossover frequency?
Yes. The acoustic crossover locations is always dependent on the magnitude relationship.
@@nathanlively Also, are the overlapping frequencies in the crossover phase aligned when applied in this method?
How to find the cross over region.. I always used to just guess but the 10db tip is great!
Right?! I really enjoyed learning that as well.
Thank you!
Hello. Do I need to adjust phase electrically it acustically? I my case I have filtered only ripoles. I have 2 xovers in cascade, main a Marchand tube and later a Bss Omnidrive. This way I can not adjust time delay otherwise moving the bass modules. can I do wit Holmimpulse? With Smaart phase is a line
Hi Raúl!
> Do I need to adjust phase electrically it acustically?
You are free to use any and all means necessary to achieve the results you want. :)
> can I do wit Holmimpulse?
I'm not familiar with this word: Holmimpulse
Hey Nathan, but what about the delay tracker? do we use it or not? i see that your mic is very close and you have 10.38 ms of delay in the delay tracker window. Thanks!
I do hit the delay tracker. See 2m42s.
hey. i have an analog mixer. then 31 band graphic Equalizer, 2 power amp QSC rmx 4050A, QSC rmx 1450A and 2 units of crossover Behringer cx3400. now I'm planning to buy a 4 channel oscilloscope with function generator. now my question is. may i used a function generator to phase align my speakers? the first crossover would be used for mid and high frequency speakers which is for qsc rmx 1450A then my another crossover would be for my qsc rmx4050A for my subwoofer and i will connect it to my mono out of my mixer. is it possible to used function generator to tuned and align my mixers , processor and amplifiers? sorry for long description.
Hey Carlo, I don't see anything wrong with that idea, but I think the best advice is to reach out the manufacturer and ask them to do. You can email QSC and ask them how they recommend that you complete the alignment.
Personally, I would use a 2-channel audio analyzer to compare the phase, but that just because I more experience with that tool.
Let me know how it goes.
Is this something you have to do each time you set up and use them? If I buy subs and mains designed to work together can I skip this?
Hey Aaron, we're going to cover this on Monday at the workshop: nathanlively.as.me/easy
The short answer: If your speaker pair are designed to work together (phase aligned out of the box) AND you deploy them exactly the same way every time, then yes, you never have to worry about alignment. This will make you designs pretty rigid, though. I can see how this might make sense for an installed system, but then both speakers would need to be co-located.
You might also want to take a look at MLS signals:
www.mathworks.com/help/audio/ref/mls.html
You are beginning with 10.38 than switch to 3.56, what is the deal? thanks!
Hey Adrian, at 2:42 I hit the delay tracker, but it happens really fast and I neglected to mention it in the video.
Hey Nathan do I need to delay locate my mains and my sub separately? Or do I just need to delay locate the mains then figure out what delay is need for the sub to line up the phase traces?
Hey John, you'll need to do whatever is necessary to restore alignment, including physical placement, electronic delay, and/or filters. You should be fine with delay on one channel as long as that channel actually needs to arrive later and not earlier.
Nathan Lively thanks I guess to clarify exactly what I’m asking. Let’s say I have mains and subs who’s positions are fixed and cannot be moved. I am attempting to use a measurement mic and smaart to align them through the acoustic crossover region. In Smaart is it is obviously quite easy to delay locate the mains. This tends to place that measured data in a position that it’s easier to read. When I go to measure my sub next it seems like in general I do not want to try to delay locate that measurement in Smaart but instead leave whatever delay was found for the mains present and then from there figure out what processor delay is needed to align the traces as best as possible?
you use the find delay for synchronized the mic measurement with the reference channel for measure the top ok but when you measure the sub for compared with the top you do again find delay ?
(sorry for my bad english...)
No, because the delay locator is less accurate with the sub.
What’s the top graph? I see the bottom is the “phase” graph
magnitude?
how do we know if we must delay the sub or the heads?
Hey Cedric, you need to delay the one with less steep slope.
Hey ! I am sorry but there is a mistake in the info of your video: time = ΔPhase / (360 * Frequency) and not time = ΔPhase / 360 / ΔFrequency. All the best.
Hey Ludovic, although I do not believe that is correct, I have been wrong before many times. Could you give me an example?
@@nathanlively Hello ! Well, 10mS is the time offset creating a 180° phase shift at 50Hz. 180/(360*50) = 180/ (18000) = 0.01. Actually using your formula I get the exact same result, mathematically we do actually the same operation, so my mistake but not really ;-)
Confusing. Too much talk in between to getting straight to the point 👉 👈 👇 Was a reference delay 0 set on mains, subs, or both or none?
Hi FreeKeenan, the reference is almost always set with the full-range source. By the way, I feel compelled to point out that browsing videos on YT is not the fastest way to get answers to your specific questions. If you can find a mentor or friend to train you locally, that would be a lot faster. Good luck in your search! :)
@nathanlively Will your paid course get me one on one to get sub to main alignment down?
why is 60 degree
?
Can you rephrase the question?
@@nathanlively I think he means why is the permit able range between -60 to 0 degrees
Your clicker drives me crazy 🤪
Ha! ok, the mouse click is too loud?
can you please give me the smart live application sir
Hey Rais, you can get that on the Rational Acoustics site.
@@nathanlively ok thanks
Setting the mains and sub placed together on the floor is pointless. Sub and main phase needs to be set when heard from the normal listening position.
This was done just to show how to time align speakers
@@habdulahsalam The sub and the main speakers should be time aligned AND in phase when they are in the listening position. Time alignment is not the same thing as in phase. You can have two speakers working in phase with each other but they will not be time aligned if the distance from them to the listener is significantly different.
Sorry, phase aligned i meant to say. Keep up the good work.