@@robertchavezmoron6868 I do too. I cut 250Hz on pretty much everything. It's the muddy shit region for a lot of things. 150-160Hz too @stevegee218 is right; nothing good happens there.
Hey guys do u have any video how to mix an Eq on guitar that explain the function of every HertZ? When i'm searching on youtube I cant fi d any only presets or samples
Surprisingly, all old Midas Heritage consoles (1K, 3K especially) have a prominent boost in the 160Hz region by default. Possibly why everyone regarded them as being so warm sounding. It sure added up though when you were using 30+ channels.
I mix every element to make it "flat" and to give the proper breathe and space to each (so they're like sitting in their own pocket of eq) following the concept behind the F&M curves, and then I give the color I want to each element depending on taste/needs. While doing this I discovered that a spectrum of each element should end and the extremes in a smooth way to sound as clean as possible and also that most of the times, when you mix, you're basically "scaling" the eq of each element, trying to keep as many frequencies as possible as the original, while carving (or filtering out for the extremes of the spectrum) the frequencies you need to make it "fit and breathe" with the others. I don't know if it is actually a thing, I'm self taught and I like to learn by logic and intuition before studying. To give an example on what I mean when I say "scaling" the equalization: I see 1Khz like a mirror line. Let's say you HP a snare sample with a considerable amount of unnecessary low end at 250hz. Everything that there's at the other respective side of the mirror line will inevitably become too bright so you start to low pass. Now The extremes are good but the "center" of the sound has become boxy and harsh because you've "narrowed" it and the original information of the original sample's "body" is like squeezed by the narrowed extremes. At this point you make every necessary little or drastic eq move to balance the sound and perceive it as close as possible to the original when it's in solo while it perfectly fits in the big picture. (A hypothetical eq move could be making a dip on a specific frequency after 250 to restore the perception of the low end BEFORE 250 or taming the harshness zone to make it peak always under the max amount of a vocal's high frequencies so they don't mask or/and hurt your ears when they overlap). Now you have a flat clean element which you can color and enrich, and fine-equalize according to your tastes and needs. When I say flat I mean it in a "Fletcher and Munson ear-wise way" , and not "visually" on the spectrum. For example I've learnt that a clean and "flat" vocal's fixed spectrum, at the end of the entire song, should ideally have like a "turtle" shape with an asymmetrical shell. The highest and loudest frequency of the "shell" must never exceed 1,5khz (+or -) and it should always be around the same level of the Loudest frequency of the highs range (so the loudest "S"). From 1,5 ahead the shell goes smoothly down making a gentle dip and smoothly going up again at 5k to form the "head" of the turtle with another slightly flatted-top little shell, smoothly curving down again towards the "air" frequency extreme (this may vary always depending on taste and need). 🤝
Exactly. I’ve been seeing this for 30 years about the Fletcher Munson curve and how people build PAs and how your ears work and how they hear and how they listen. This whole thing is completely spot on and anybody disagreeing what it is a fool. PAs are built to attenuate all these frequencies that Dave’s cutting and your ears are built to do the same thing
It's important to take into account that Dave is mixing in venues the size of which most of our PA systems wouldn't be adequate as side fills for the stage. As a young man (many years ago :-), an agency-hire band came to play at a local venue where the band I was doing sound for played on a regular basis. The sound quality just blew me away, it sounded soooo good compared to the typical band mix, including my own. Not long after that we did some kind of showcase put on by the agency where multiple bands basically auditioned for local club managers. The band with that great sound was the PA provider on one of the stages, and watching the sound guy ("Pat") set up for his band, the most frequently heard phrase coming out of his mouth was "too loud". His stage volume was as low as he could possibly get it without starting a mutiny. He would even face Marshall cabs into blanket-filled drum cases so the guitar players could crank it up to 3 and still have a very low stage volume. Everything was in the monitors, which was unheard of at the time for "pro" garage bands (monitors were for vocals), and amazingly, without a separate monitor console. All the front-of-house volume came from the mains, and it just sounded great! The moral of the story is that you're really not mixing if your main focus is just to get the levels up to match the loudest thing coming off the stage. Pat was also running a stereo mix, and after going stereo I never went back to mono again except for outdoor venues, but of course most of the rooms we worked were 20 steps side-to-side.
That’s nice to hear that my last band that went for about seven years the guitar player used a 15 Watt amp at three. Everything came through the monitors on stage and foh
@@Triple3hot Yep. It's a lot easier to do today with digital consoles and in-ear monitors with separate iPhone-controlled mixes for everyone on the stage. Some bands don't have much of a backline at all. And PAs are lots easier to manage with powered speaker systems. When we went to a stereo mix we had to buy another 3-stack of amps (one stack for each side of the stage), and of course a 3-way stereo crossover plus a snake that had enough sends. I also had a Rane 27 band stereo EQ with the left/right faders for each frequency side-by-side instead of in separate sections so you didn't have to count the marks in the dark to duplicate the EQ on both sides. It was genius.
I don't expect bands to natively understand that a clean stage is going to give a cleaner sound (talking live sound, obviously), but when they are unwilling to try it, well, that's where the ignorance & stupidity goes on full display. And of course this often goes hand in hand with the "It's all about me" attitude that prevents musicians from growing and being or becoming professional. Public shows need to be all about the audience, not about turning up your amp to 11 because there are no neighbors to complain 🤣🤣🤣. There are just 2 simple rules: 1) Quality is more important than quantity (volume), and 2) don't be an A-hole (don't play louder than the situation dictates) I have my own systems, but I also work as the SE2 at the most famous rock bar in my country. This bar has an ancient (circa 2002) Meyer point source system, an old Avid DShow Profile (circa 2008), and a stage full of amps & floor monitors for musicians to use. One thing that often surprises people is when during sound checks I mute the FoH... and the volume barely drops off. Yes, we lose vocal clarity, and we lose some or a lot of drums, depending on the drummer, and some chest thump from the subs, but there is still what most people find to be a shocking amount of volume. Of course, this translates to mud, or a lack of clarity because the sound is coming from all over the place on stage, as opposed to coherent sound from the FoH boxes. None the less, very few bands can be talked into going clean at this venue, even though we have Shure wireless in-ears packs, and tons of DI boxes. I did a Latin jazz show there where the musicians all wanted to go clean, and it was literally mind bending how much better it sounded. On my own system, I just tell people I don't own any floor monitors (I do, and provide them under rare special circumstances), and I don't allow stage amps (I do, for a few rare exceptions where there is a legitimate need), and if that doesn't sound good, then I'm not your guy. Bands that know me know that their show is going to sound amazing, and bands that aren't willing to go clean, well, I'm just as happy if they find a different supplier / engineer for their shows. Everybody is happy.
@@radioflyer2030 Ya, I hear ya! I once did sound for a stage at a "battle of the bands" type event. Some of the bands were so loud that I couldn't even match their volume level, let alone do a mix. The last band that played was a bunch of old guys who had been working the area for a decade or maybe two. They were almost laughed at by the new, young bands. But guess who won? Yep. Because they knew how to set their stage for live shows. This was in a city Gym (basketball court), and we all know there's no worse venue as far as sound goes. You can't understand someone yelling from across the room even when it's quiet because of all the echo. But the old guys sounded great. Everything else was mud.
"The moral of the story is that you're really not mixing if your main focus is just to get the levels up to match the loudest thing coming off the stage." Then I need better musicians because where I mix we always have to mix to compensate for a guitar player or two or three if an open jam are always way too loud.
Subtractive EQ is one of the most important things I learned while working the studios in Nashville. It's just like the space between the notes in songs...just as important and so overlooked. Excellent tips!
After watching this video I decided to give this a try. First gig it worked great. Second gig, I struggled a bit. The difference was two entirely different PA systems setup by two different individuals. What Dave didn't mention and maybe it should be common knowledge is that he gets to mix on the best of the best stuff. Rolling Stones.... who gets to do that? I'm sure they use the same PA, same system tech to get the system in the best starting position day in and day out. All Dave has to do is find out what the room did to the system and correct that. Not taking anything away from him at all....the guy is brilliant. Just pointing out that there is a lot more behind the scenes to this to get you the same results. The system I mixed on last night was not setup correctly so I spent way too much time trying to EQ it using the reference track. I decided to fire up my Smaart rig and see if anything stuck out and sure enough there were some high frequencies (8-12.5k) and low mid that were boosted a ridiculous amount. I guess the owner of the PA thought it sounded better that way. The Tops and subs were out of alignment by a lot. I had very little time to address these issues when the system owner is hovering over my head saying, "What are you doing? I already have this DIALED in?" OMG!!! No you DO NOT.... So I had to resort to some combat audio and get the show going. I made it work and it was certainly better than where it was when I started but it is what it is. With that said, the system has to be setup correctly first to have the best success with any EQing. Dave's method is in fact a combat audio technique developed because of Tina Turner's management wanting it to be so loud. I would have expected this out of an AC/DC FOH guy for sure but Tina? In any case, I do like this a lot and will continue to work with it.
That's basically how I was taught to EQ the house by the touring engineers I encountered on the reggae circuit. The other important component of a heavy bottom loud mix is the controlling the kick attack. Start by maxing out the ratio and the threshold on the compressor, then slow down the attack to let the proper amount of kick come through. Then adjust ratios and threshold if necessary. You'll get thunderous, tight kick sounds. Not so good for more subtle artists but great for rock and roots reggae.
To this extent i agree, but you still carve out low mids to reduce mud between the kick and base, and take away from 2.5k-4k because it hurts. not by the amount in the vid, but its still a good visual for which frequencies you dont want, live OR recorded.
@@nenntmichbond you usually want to create space between the kick and bass to remove muddiness via eq. you also want to dip around 3-4k to remove the painful frequencies. For a live show you would do this more than a recording since you’ll be playing so much louder, but you still want to dip these frequencies in the mixing process for a recorded track.
That 2.1-3k is well known to be the pain area. Our ears are sensitive there because that is the frequency of baby cries. It's built-in. Dave and Rick should explain this as the "baby cry" region. Hating 160 is a bit new to me but I'm mixing something right now and will see how that area affects the song.
I learned ~160 as the "mud" region. If you want an anthropological reason, my guess would be that it's not as supernaturally bass-y as 40 or 80 but as an overtone ends up conflicting with and masking them. I.e., it might not be so much that 160 is "bad" as it is relatively commonplace in acoustic settings and therefore boring. Loud, musically coherent 40s and 80s are perhaps harder to come by in random noise-scapes. Therefore, they'd almost always be preferred if you're going to undertake the effort to create an artificial/controlled soundscape. You get those big woofy kicks and rumbly, thunderous thoomps down there.
@@deaterk It should translate somewhat. I also adjusted 160 a bit live this past Sunday to see if there was any value there. Perhaps some - maybe more in a reverberant live setting in an arena show.
Everyone should be wearing plugs. We’re there because we love music, yet the volumes used will destroy the sense that allows us to love it to begin with.
@@cadriver2570 I was at a show about 7 years ago where Hell Yeah was the opener and they were so loud, my 30dB earplugs began to distort and I couldn't tell anything apart in the noise... it blew my mind, almost literally
I stumbled upon this mixing at my church. Was getting “too loud “ complaints. Using dynamic EQ on 2k to 4K and now I mix louder and actually get compliments from the same people who used to complain. Edit: completely agree on mixing mono. I learned that the hard way. FOH is directly in line with the Left hang. The lead singer is usually on the left (hence panned just a bit left). I would listen to board mixes and be frustrated that I buried the lead with the background vocals (typically panned a bit right). Once my mistake dawned on me and I started mixing the vocals with little to no panning, it is MUCH better. I really think we need an honest discussion about stereo (or immersive) in live sound.
Same. I took a stab at the board because everyone at church complained it was too loud. It was, and it sounded muddy as well. Through some trial and error came to similar setup, with a mono mix. The next best thing I did was get them to buy in-ears and then eliminated almost all of the monitors (left a couple). Half of the sound problems were related to everyone wanting something turned up louder in the floor wedges. Here, put these in your ear and control your mix.
A&H SQ console has the option of a bought dynamic EQ add-on. In the SQ, I can only use 4 dynamic EQs at a time, since the other 4 rack FX are dedicated reverbs.
This concept I have used for 30 years. People could not figure out how my system could be so pleasantly loud, and they could still talk, because I dropped those frequencies from the instruments , but left some of them in the vocals .
One thing I've constantly wrestled with as a FOH engineer at my church is how to make the house have energy without it being loud/painful. Run the system too low and everything sounds dead, but run it too hot and people complain it's too loud. I like how he identifies the specific frequency range that causes pain because now I have something to work with. And I agree that it's often better to cut than to boost.
The reason to mix insanely loud is for the visceral impact. I was at a Silversun Pickups show recently and I believe they nailed it. My sense was that the mix wasn't overly loud BUT I think they were using a sub bass/octave processor (don't know the exact term for this) to overwhelm your entire being. It was by far the most visceral concert I've ever experienced (I grew up in the 70's and I've been to a lot of shows). The mix was clear as light and ear pain never entered the equation. When they hit the first notes, I thought to myself "Dorothy, we aren't in Kansas anymore". What a performance!
Saw a show back in the 90s - American Rejects. They actually mixed pretty quietly in the place we were at. Took my kids, they wanted to see it. Surprisingly quiet for me.
@@keithsquawk Just today I bought tickets to see Silversun Pickups again! This time, I'm gonna talk to the mixing engineer and see if I can learn about his sub-bass processor and other secret sauces.
It’s called subharmonic synthesis. There are great and easy-to-use rackmount units that do it and of course plugins galore. A common trick used by the pros in both live and recording.
@@the1version422 It's great, but be mindful of masking ... you can add so much bottom octave energy that it can neuter a punchy mix due to our hearing mechanism.
Love the approach. Have always started with everything flat and then started cutting. It makes so much sense to start with all frequencies cut except for the lows and then start adding until it sounds good.
Great stuff! I love the pain band. I can't agree on the mono mix unless you have a single point source PA. Comb filtering from multiple correlated sources will cancel/add frequencies as you move around the venue. Your favorite guitarist will only be heard about every third seat.
Interesting clip! I used to mix lots of shows in stereo, but I approached most of the mix in mono. He's absolutely correct that you're trying to provide maximum room coverage, not mixing a record; but having everything dead-center can also load up the sound field, making some instruments fight each other. However, if you pan competing sounds just slightly off-center you can clean up loading in a way that doesn't rob one side or the other. Also, if you're working with stereo keyboards the sounds might not collapse into mono well - in those cases I pan L/R to 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock, more or less, to give a bit of spread and open up that sound again. You can leverage subtle panning without ruining the experience - just make sure you walk around the room a lot and listen!
I respect those who’ve done bigger gigs than I ever will for longer than I’ve been alive… but I have to say, with the tools available to us today if you’re doing system correction by several steep cuts on a graphic EQ you are under estimating the amount of phase shift induced by that. And further, with the PA’s and FIR DSP’s available to deploy for a given room, there are less destructive ways to achieve the response curve you’re after. Just my thoughts, and to anyone new to live sound finding this thinking a 31 band graphic is your magic bullet, please reconsider and do a deep dive into target curves for live sound system deployment. Most manufacturers today include a fletcher-Munson inspired target curve in their design
I'm a software developer, and have been for approximately 40 years (yikes). This video is a perfect example of 'experience'. This illustrates exactly why experience can often top knowledge, and it consists of stuff you can't read a book about. Same concept applies to software development. Great video, loved it.
It applies to life as a whole. Experience is equivalent to knowledge. You can only learn by experience, and even if you "read" or "study" to gain your knowledge, whatever you read came about from the EXPERIENCE of whoever wrote it and the experience of those before them... which is why science has to be "empirical", to be put to work
Eloquently put. I have always called this type of eq'ing a natural eq. Ear plugs go in when I see engineers tune to pink noise without voicing the system because I know its going to hurt and fatigue me. Great vid!
That has changed over the last 5 years or so. At least in Europe. I think they have gotten better at generating an even sound pressure level throughout the venue - or maybe due to new legislation.
@@mattfoley6082 Since at least 20 years ago there are earplugs used by musicians that have a filter, instead of just being some blocking material between your ear and the sound source. They act like a more or less even dB drop across the whole spectrum, so you don't really lose frequencies, you just perceive a volume drop (like a pad). I like Alpine Hearing Protection stuff, because I have a small ear canal and I can use their products for kids, but there are many more earplug manufacturers out there.
Hello, i finished a school of sound engineers in 1997, worked for many years in the field and still working. I have to say that if my teachers were giving me this info when i was at the school my life would have been different. It took me many many years to understand what Dave explains in few minutes. Seriously, do that and you wont get fired. You just need to know exactly what youre doing.
I have been a freelance mixer for years and have often pushed the limits of what is possible. Since I've seen this, many things have become easier and it's so obvious
I've been struggling with my in ear monitor mix for some time now fighting cymbal bleed in my vocal mic combined with overall harshness and lack of clarity. I've spent the past couple of days applying these principles to the eq curve on my iem mix and it's really brought out the clarity and removed the brash / harshness out. My ears are comfortable and I can now hear what I need to hear. Dare I say it's even pleasant now. This 6 min "anti-tutorial" has really cleaned up my iems. I highly recommend trying this if you're running in ear monitors.
It's not weird! It makes complete sense. Making our band's tones with a quad cortex, we're running it hot in the studio and cutting all the painful frequencies. Means the live engineers at DIY level who don't care about the pain range don't have to think about it. I wish I could pre-mix the drums too! This is awesome to watch. Hopefully more engineers see this and reduce the need for ear plugs!
One night in a glass atrium called MY Apartment in Halifax Nova Scotia I ended up with an eq Similar to this situation and It was so extreme that I covered the rack lol
Listen to the PA in the venue. Identify problem areas or areas outside of the window of your preferred curve. Look at the response in SMAART to both help confirm and more precisely target what you're hearing (which you can do against a trace). Dial it in without going overboard on the EQ... Soundcheck.
I have huge respect for both these guys. This video, and the main interview are so insightful and it just shows what great people there are in this industry. My question though, is does he REALLY make such savage cuts to a system's main eq?? I mean it's beyond radical. Surely taking out 15dB at 160 and some at 320, and 640 is gonna take a lot of the "body" out of vocals and a whole bunch of other instruments. I just wish I could go to one of the great Rolling Stones gigs to hear this for myself. I'm certainly going to give it a try at the weekend.
even 40 years ago I EQ'd this way without the 160Hz harmonics. Pulled down the vocal range frequencies and brightened the 10K-20K range. cool. yeah that 1K-3K can hurt your ears.
Dude has the same philosophy as me... just further reinforces the things i've learned over the years of mixing live sound. Either by someone teaching me or discovery.
I learned how to EQ like this from some pros in Atlanta GA from a Company call Seriously Sound inc back in the early 90’s. “White” and Ashley eq’s were preferred. Some of the engineers previously worked with Clair Brothers. Similar methods can also be used with parametrics.
I used to mix with similar graphic settings and my old boss once saw it and called me up on it saying it would sound like shit, but I always had people come up to me saying it sounded great and that it was the loudest gig they'd at that venue, and crucially that it didn't hurt their ears - there was a hard limiter on the system so it wasn't any louder, just perceived loudness. And whenever my boss was engineering it sounded harsh and I had to put ear plugs in after 10mins. I agree with Dave 100%
This makes sense to me, and I've been doing something similar for decades. I mix in gentle stereo. I move things outward just enough to make kik-snare-vox more apparent in the "center channel".
Happy to see that a pro like Dave does/did and thinks the same I did. 🙏🧡 I even pulled back the 3 - 4k area when the band got louder during the concert. This effect illustrated by the Fletcher-Munson curves finally led to the development of the Deeflexx Systems. There are no harsh frequencies on axis standing in front of a guitar cab - a balanced sound around the amp ... 🎸🔊_/😀
Thank you for this video. I also do live sound and years of doing it, drove me to same conclusions, working method. It feels good, when Dave actually approved, the way I do it. 😀
I think it’s great that you made this video. I wish there was actually guys on RUclips that are live sound engineers that would give demos , have live online talks where questions could be asked etc.
I’m glad someone agrees with me on the painful aspect of that frequency range. I find myself cutting that heavily on 99% of my mixes and was wondering if i was doing something wrong lol. I think the muddy frequency area can change based on the room. I totally agree with not boosting much of anything as well.
Did a lot of live mixing in the 70s and 80s. Always mixed for clarity and avoided any sign of clipping. Was sometimes pretty loud but clear. (I like to hear what the vocalist is singing!) Result, no ringing in the ears after gigs, no tinnitus, and apart from normal top-end roll-off for my age my hearing is fine. I often didnt have graphic EQ available but my individual EQs were often down in that 160-360 range, so Dave's idea makes sense.
Hey Rick, great channel! Dave, What’s The Frequency Kenneth 😂. You two saved me a lot of pain. I have a small studio room but it is acoustically awful for playing guitar along with my studio speakers. The set up is ok for playback and mixing but it gets too shrill aka painful and the bass gets washed out when I play my guitar through the amp in the room. I set up a custom EQ based on your recommendations and the results were amazing. I can get pretty loud and the shrill ice-pick mids are gone and the bass is almost overwhelming where it was barely there. For live playback, your recommendations worked wonders, thank you!
Was told many years ago by a pro FOH/monitor mixing guru that when the mix is too heavy in the ~3k range, it’s likely a sign that the mix engineer has been smoking pot. Apparently the THC relaxes nerves in the inner ear and make you less sensitive to that (annoying) 3K range. I had zero reason to doubt him, as he’s now one of the lead design engineers at Danley Sound Labs. In fact, he lives in the ATL area, and Rick might even know him.
Maybe it's because I'm old but I was told basically to do the same thing when I mixed our cover band. The only weird thing was the 160Hz. But everything above 2Khz was flat. Very cool video!
Oh wow, yes, mixing in mono. One of those things that makes total sense when you start out right at the beginning in sound reinforcement and then you get ‘creative’ after that, which just means the audience misses out. Love this.
"This is not a lesson, it's how I do stuff." lolol I've used a similar phrase many times in a NUMBER of different fields! lol Love the adding of 'if YOU do it...."
After seeing this (on the full length video), I went and tried it. My board now, for the drums group, has 160 turned way down and 2K-4K turned down slightly.
I love mono mixes too until just before studio mastering. One speaker in the studio. Get the mud out get the shrill out. I love multiband compression. But one night I did live sound for Gene Loves Jezebel (LA) in a small club in Alabama. I had to buy a Personal PA from a pawn shop the day before. I had to turn the PA system up all the way and Michael only had one bit of input the whole night all he said was " lots of reverb" I think I turned the reverb all the way up too. He talked a lot between songs and it was pretty funny how much reverb there was during his talking
Mixing mono: THANK YOU! I do the same because it's just common sense that the only person who benefits from stereo is the person who is equidistant from two sound sources. I've long advocated that everyone should be hearing the same thing, regardless of where they're sitting (or standing).
Also in the studio, taming harshness is as fundamental as controlling the low end. Since I've started to make a little smooth dip in that area of the spectrum (mainly on vocals), correctly equalizing the elements with harshness content, I would say that it's what really get me into the "pro" phase of the mixing journey and I began to hear/feel a decent level of "pro" sound in the next mixes. It all started from the concept behind the Fletcher and Munson Curves. I really suggest to study it to anyone who is at the beginning of the journey.
man ive always mixed with certain "pain" freqs that i hated . no one has ever complained, but ive never heard of anyone else doin this... its awesome to hear someone else with this philosophy
I was fortunate enough to be trained by someone who does large tours early in my career. The two most important lessons I learned from him were: knock people off their feet, but don’t hurt their ears, and make it sound like a band instead of individual instruments.
So helpful! Thank you Rick and Dave. My additional question to him would be does he do the same for outside as well as inside? And what is his PA tuning track again?
Excellent advice. A lot depends on the venue of course, so there might already be dampening/enhancement happening - I'd imagine mix engineers are using real-time frequency analysers as a starting point? Gotta also remember, if you go too loud, that in itself will also be painful.
I loved his work ever since I heard him in the late 80s . However in 2024 this is not necessarily the way to go, usually there will be a good system engineer to tune the p.a. and you don’t have to do those drastic moves on a graphic eq. Don’t forget this is meant to enable you to mix loud but on the other hand you are removing a lot of energy so you in the end you might not be able to turn up the system as loud as you want. This comes from someone with over 30 years of experience.
I remember gong to a show in a very nice hall and the PA was CRISPY! I figured whoever was at FOH had mid-high loss and was compensating by kicking similar freqs like Dave is mentioning. Went to another show in an old movie theater and, since I wanted to be close to the stage, ended up sitting nearly directly in front of the stage left stack. I had plugs, but part way into the show I took them out to check and it sounded like I was listening to a very nice home stereo - loud but not uncomfortable. I'm guessing after listening to Dave's approach FOH was doing something similar. (I did put the plugs back in JIC since my proximity to the stack was what it was.) Also, what Dave mentions at the end is not only spot on for the right reasons, it also would take much more power from the amps to make that very wide venue into a 20 ft. wide room (or so I've been told).
On my summer tour we are flying out fills of K2’s that are a reverse stereo image of the mains so I can mix in full stereo without the worry. The only issue is the reverse of the kit to stage perspective for those on the far outside.
I worked for a sci-fi convention for 25 years. The sound guy worked sound for a studio in LA. I was basically a grunt working setting up everything he told me to do. He would mix the speakers in stereo but would have every other speaker would alternate. So Left right left right around the room.
It is roughly, and I do mean roughly, the scooped mids "smile pattern" we all used in the 80s...minus the excessive boosting of bass and treble we did on those Pioneer and Alpine units.
I once got a 30 minute lesson on psychoacoustics from a guy at Neural Audio who has forgot more on how we perceive sound than most audio people will ever learn. And it’s about perception not what looks like a flat signal on a scope. How we hear goes all the way back to when we were just another animal in the food chain and trying desperately to get to the top and not to be eaten by the apex predators. Once you learn those concepts, you not only mix better, but you learn how we can process sound for different environments and most importantly in a digital environment, how and where you can save bits but keep your sound perception quality high. The frequencies identified here are not only parts that annoy us, their lower and upper harmonics do too. With modern tools you can reduce those frequencies and keep listeners happy while actually dropping bit rates. It’s still a dark art but the science is catching up.
That's actually what I've been doing on those frequencies for years now, I guess I'm not crazy. even helped in monitors with 3 vocalists battling over volume 👍
I tried mixing in stereo one time a long time ago, in a small venue, because I was asked to. I even told them that the ones in the center are the only ones that might get the full mix of musicians, but the ones on the left and right won't. It's great if you're sitting at home, but not for a gig. Mono all the way!
4:10, I stuck watching the EQ graph thinking that it’s familiar to me, I open my digital XR18 and turns out that over the time I ‘ve been approaching that curve without noticing, much smaller gigs ofcourse, and not cutting completely the freqs, but very near to the same freq ranges
I do a similar thing, but not the same way, and not always for the same reason. I don't mix as loud as humanly possible because I'm mixing for a church and the goal isn't a concert, but to support the congregation. So I pull low mids down on almost everything because it's just muddy. It lacks clarity and it's the frequency range that puts people to sleep (during the sermon). There are some minor narrow rises that I do in the pain region on the EQ for the sake of improving clarity, and I often shelf the extreme highs up some at least as far as the LPFs. In turn, however, I compress in such as a way as to bring that whole high range down. I'm working with amateur musicians for the most part and that simply helps control them. But the issue with the pain range is something I've come across. We brought in a former audio tech to run our Christmas concert last year. He stepped down because he was losing his hearing, but said he had gotten these fancy hearing aids that correct those frequencies he can't hear anymore. The highs went through the roof and since it was a concert he cranked it up to 100 dBa. It sounded great to him (and to our integrator who has the same hearing issue - and same solution), but it was hurting everyone's ears. So just a PSA for audio engineers, if you have significant hearing loss, those expensive hearing aids can only go so far to correct your hearing. Don't be fooled into thinking you're hearing as well as you did when you didn't need hearing aids. My hearing is fine for my age, but I have normal hearing loss for my age. I keep young people around for those really high frequencies I can't hear like I used to.
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
"That frequency is a pain. It Hertz"
bad-dum-tish.
Hahahah
@@TheOriginalCoda carve the 160s out of those drums, pal. It hurts grandma
used to be into sound jokes, but it was just a phase
Your comment was more painful
No mud, no pain. Love it. And, even his presentation is analog.
"You can't be hitting Grandma with 2.5K" might just be the greatest statement I've ever heard made on a RUclips video haha!
haha lol !
More of this please. I'm not even a producer or mixer or engineer, it's just another dimention of nerdy interest.
When I was learning live sound, I was taught "Nothing good happens at 160" by an old A1.
Ringing drums ? Kill 150-160. Yes
Personally i hate 250 jajaj
@@robertchavezmoron6868 I do too. I cut 250Hz on pretty much everything. It's the muddy shit region for a lot of things. 150-160Hz too @stevegee218 is right; nothing good happens there.
Hey guys do u have any video how to mix an Eq on guitar that explain the function of every HertZ? When i'm searching on youtube I cant fi d any only presets or samples
Surprisingly, all old Midas Heritage consoles (1K, 3K especially) have a prominent boost in the 160Hz region by default. Possibly why everyone regarded them as being so warm sounding. It sure added up though when you were using 30+ channels.
Great video and Dave pretty much drew the Fletcher Munson curve.😊
Well spotted. Makes perfect sense, now
I mix every element to make it "flat" and to give the proper breathe and space to each (so they're like sitting in their own pocket of eq) following the concept behind the F&M curves, and then I give the color I want to each element depending on taste/needs. While doing this I discovered that a spectrum of each element should end and the extremes in a smooth way to sound as clean as possible and also that most of the times, when you mix, you're basically "scaling" the eq of each element, trying to keep as many frequencies as possible as the original, while carving (or filtering out for the extremes of the spectrum) the frequencies you need to make it "fit and breathe" with the others.
I don't know if it is actually a thing, I'm self taught and I like to learn by logic and intuition before studying.
To give an example on what I mean when I say "scaling" the equalization:
I see 1Khz like a mirror line.
Let's say you HP a snare sample with a considerable amount of unnecessary low end at 250hz. Everything that there's at the other respective side of the mirror line will inevitably become too bright so you start to low pass.
Now The extremes are good but the "center" of the sound has become boxy and harsh because you've "narrowed" it and the original information of the original sample's "body" is like squeezed by the narrowed extremes.
At this point you make every necessary little or drastic eq move to balance the sound and perceive it as close as possible to the original when it's in solo while it perfectly fits in the big picture.
(A hypothetical eq move could be making a dip on a specific frequency after 250 to restore the perception of the low end BEFORE 250 or taming the harshness zone to make it peak always under the max amount of a vocal's high frequencies so they don't mask or/and hurt your ears when they overlap).
Now you have a flat clean element which you can color and enrich, and fine-equalize according to your tastes and needs.
When I say flat I mean it in a "Fletcher and Munson ear-wise way" , and not "visually" on the spectrum. For example I've learnt that a clean and "flat" vocal's fixed spectrum, at the end of the entire song, should ideally have like a "turtle" shape with an asymmetrical shell. The highest and loudest frequency of the "shell" must never exceed 1,5khz (+or -) and it should always be around the same level of the Loudest frequency of the highs range (so the loudest "S"). From 1,5 ahead the shell goes smoothly down making a gentle dip and smoothly going up again at 5k to form the "head" of the turtle with another slightly flatted-top little shell, smoothly curving down again towards the "air" frequency extreme (this may vary always depending on taste and need).
🤝
That is not the same as the fletcher Munson curve
Exactly. I’ve been seeing this for 30 years about the Fletcher Munson curve and how people build PAs and how your ears work and how they hear and how they listen. This whole thing is completely spot on and anybody disagreeing what it is a fool. PAs are built to attenuate all these frequencies that Dave’s cutting and your ears are built to do the same thing
I had the pleasure of working with Dave last night in Nashville. One of the best band mixes I’ve heard in a while
It's important to take into account that Dave is mixing in venues the size of which most of our PA systems wouldn't be adequate as side fills for the stage. As a young man (many years ago :-), an agency-hire band came to play at a local venue where the band I was doing sound for played on a regular basis. The sound quality just blew me away, it sounded soooo good compared to the typical band mix, including my own. Not long after that we did some kind of showcase put on by the agency where multiple bands basically auditioned for local club managers. The band with that great sound was the PA provider on one of the stages, and watching the sound guy ("Pat") set up for his band, the most frequently heard phrase coming out of his mouth was "too loud". His stage volume was as low as he could possibly get it without starting a mutiny. He would even face Marshall cabs into blanket-filled drum cases so the guitar players could crank it up to 3 and still have a very low stage volume. Everything was in the monitors, which was unheard of at the time for "pro" garage bands (monitors were for vocals), and amazingly, without a separate monitor console. All the front-of-house volume came from the mains, and it just sounded great! The moral of the story is that you're really not mixing if your main focus is just to get the levels up to match the loudest thing coming off the stage. Pat was also running a stereo mix, and after going stereo I never went back to mono again except for outdoor venues, but of course most of the rooms we worked were 20 steps side-to-side.
That’s nice to hear that
my last band that went for about seven years the guitar player used a 15 Watt amp at three.
Everything came through the monitors on stage and foh
@@Triple3hot Yep. It's a lot easier to do today with digital consoles and in-ear monitors with separate iPhone-controlled mixes for everyone on the stage. Some bands don't have much of a backline at all. And PAs are lots easier to manage with powered speaker systems. When we went to a stereo mix we had to buy another 3-stack of amps (one stack for each side of the stage), and of course a 3-way stereo crossover plus a snake that had enough sends. I also had a Rane 27 band stereo EQ with the left/right faders for each frequency side-by-side instead of in separate sections so you didn't have to count the marks in the dark to duplicate the EQ on both sides. It was genius.
I don't expect bands to natively understand that a clean stage is going to give a cleaner sound (talking live sound, obviously), but when they are unwilling to try it, well, that's where the ignorance & stupidity goes on full display. And of course this often goes hand in hand with the "It's all about me" attitude that prevents musicians from growing and being or becoming professional. Public shows need to be all about the audience, not about turning up your amp to 11 because there are no neighbors to complain 🤣🤣🤣. There are just 2 simple rules: 1) Quality is more important than quantity (volume), and 2) don't be an A-hole (don't play louder than the situation dictates)
I have my own systems, but I also work as the SE2 at the most famous rock bar in my country. This bar has an ancient (circa 2002) Meyer point source system, an old Avid DShow Profile (circa 2008), and a stage full of amps & floor monitors for musicians to use. One thing that often surprises people is when during sound checks I mute the FoH... and the volume barely drops off. Yes, we lose vocal clarity, and we lose some or a lot of drums, depending on the drummer, and some chest thump from the subs, but there is still what most people find to be a shocking amount of volume. Of course, this translates to mud, or a lack of clarity because the sound is coming from all over the place on stage, as opposed to coherent sound from the FoH boxes. None the less, very few bands can be talked into going clean at this venue, even though we have Shure wireless in-ears packs, and tons of DI boxes. I did a Latin jazz show there where the musicians all wanted to go clean, and it was literally mind bending how much better it sounded.
On my own system, I just tell people I don't own any floor monitors (I do, and provide them under rare special circumstances), and I don't allow stage amps (I do, for a few rare exceptions where there is a legitimate need), and if that doesn't sound good, then I'm not your guy. Bands that know me know that their show is going to sound amazing, and bands that aren't willing to go clean, well, I'm just as happy if they find a different supplier / engineer for their shows. Everybody is happy.
@@radioflyer2030 Ya, I hear ya! I once did sound for a stage at a "battle of the bands" type event. Some of the bands were so loud that I couldn't even match their volume level, let alone do a mix. The last band that played was a bunch of old guys who had been working the area for a decade or maybe two. They were almost laughed at by the new, young bands. But guess who won? Yep. Because they knew how to set their stage for live shows. This was in a city Gym (basketball court), and we all know there's no worse venue as far as sound goes. You can't understand someone yelling from across the room even when it's quiet because of all the echo. But the old guys sounded great. Everything else was mud.
"The moral of the story is that you're really not mixing if your main focus is just to get the levels up to match the loudest thing coming off the stage."
Then I need better musicians because where I mix we always have to mix to compensate for a guitar player or two or three if an open jam are always way too loud.
Subtractive EQ is one of the most important things I learned while working the studios in Nashville. It's just like the space between the notes in songs...just as important and so overlooked. Excellent tips!
This is why I just cut on the louder element instead of boosting on the quieter 80% of the times.
As a pro live FOH engineer for 25 years I would have to agree with Dave when he clearly states "Don't do this".
@@teddyhouseosound9469 maybe on a virtual soundcheck. See what happens.
But this is legit and I've seen most live mix engineers cut the mids
Why not? He does it. Look at his resume. And he is right. 💯
I followed this tip in my recent gigs and it made a world of difference to me and there is no going back now...
Same, mixed a little festival in a pub garden. It worked so well and got loads of compliments. It was loud but no one complained.
After watching this video I decided to give this a try. First gig it worked great. Second gig, I struggled a bit. The difference was two entirely different PA systems setup by two different individuals. What Dave didn't mention and maybe it should be common knowledge is that he gets to mix on the best of the best stuff. Rolling Stones.... who gets to do that? I'm sure they use the same PA, same system tech to get the system in the best starting position day in and day out. All Dave has to do is find out what the room did to the system and correct that. Not taking anything away from him at all....the guy is brilliant. Just pointing out that there is a lot more behind the scenes to this to get you the same results.
The system I mixed on last night was not setup correctly so I spent way too much time trying to EQ it using the reference track. I decided to fire up my Smaart rig and see if anything stuck out and sure enough there were some high frequencies (8-12.5k) and low mid that were boosted a ridiculous amount. I guess the owner of the PA thought it sounded better that way. The Tops and subs were out of alignment by a lot. I had very little time to address these issues when the system owner is hovering over my head saying, "What are you doing? I already have this DIALED in?" OMG!!! No you DO NOT.... So I had to resort to some combat audio and get the show going. I made it work and it was certainly better than where it was when I started but it is what it is.
With that said, the system has to be setup correctly first to have the best success with any EQing. Dave's method is in fact a combat audio technique developed because of Tina Turner's management wanting it to be so loud. I would have expected this out of an AC/DC FOH guy for sure but Tina? In any case, I do like this a lot and will continue to work with it.
That's basically how I was taught to EQ the house by the touring engineers I encountered on the reggae circuit. The other important component of a heavy bottom loud mix is the controlling the kick attack. Start by maxing out the ratio and the threshold on the compressor, then slow down the attack to let the proper amount of kick come through. Then adjust ratios and threshold if necessary. You'll get thunderous, tight kick sounds. Not so good for more subtle artists but great for rock and roots reggae.
Important to remember this is for LIVE sound. Mixing recorded music like this would be insane.
To this extent i agree, but you still carve out low mids to reduce mud between the kick and base, and take away from 2.5k-4k because it hurts. not by the amount in the vid, but its still a good visual for which frequencies you dont want, live OR recorded.
how so?
@@nenntmichbond you usually want to create space between the kick and bass to remove muddiness via eq. you also want to dip around 3-4k to remove the painful frequencies. For a live show you would do this more than a recording since you’ll be playing so much louder, but you still want to dip these frequencies in the mixing process for a recorded track.
@@jjrod66 thank you, but my question was how applying a super common frequency response is "insane"
@@nenntmichbond my b thought you were responding to me lol
Rick, a 1,000 thanx for this! This is absolutely amazing! Hats off to you and Dave!
That 2.1-3k is well known to be the pain area. Our ears are sensitive there because that is the frequency of baby cries. It's built-in. Dave and Rick should explain this as the "baby cry" region. Hating 160 is a bit new to me but I'm mixing something right now and will see how that area affects the song.
I learned ~160 as the "mud" region. If you want an anthropological reason, my guess would be that it's not as supernaturally bass-y as 40 or 80 but as an overtone ends up conflicting with and masking them.
I.e., it might not be so much that 160 is "bad" as it is relatively commonplace in acoustic settings and therefore boring. Loud, musically coherent 40s and 80s are perhaps harder to come by in random noise-scapes. Therefore, they'd almost always be preferred if you're going to undertake the effort to create an artificial/controlled soundscape. You get those big woofy kicks and rumbly, thunderous thoomps down there.
John McV - *disclaimer, this video is about mixing live sound only…NOT mixing/engineering a recording.
@@deaterk It should translate somewhat. I also adjusted 160 a bit live this past Sunday to see if there was any value there. Perhaps some - maybe more in a reverberant live setting in an arena show.
Spot on Dave, appreciate you sharing you approach.
Just common sense combined with experience.
I started wearing ear plugs to concerts when I turned 30. I probably should have always been doing that, but I was young and dumb once too.
Everyone should be wearing plugs. We’re there because we love music, yet the volumes used will destroy the sense that allows us to love it to begin with.
@@cadriver2570 I was at a show about 7 years ago where Hell Yeah was the opener and they were so loud, my 30dB earplugs began to distort and I couldn't tell anything apart in the noise... it blew my mind, almost literally
Not too far off from the way I like my mastering EQ, now it makes sense why. Thank you guys so much!
I stumbled upon this mixing at my church. Was getting “too loud “ complaints. Using dynamic EQ on 2k to 4K and now I mix louder and actually get compliments from the same people who used to complain.
Edit: completely agree on mixing mono. I learned that the hard way. FOH is directly in line with the Left hang. The lead singer is usually on the left (hence panned just a bit left). I would listen to board mixes and be frustrated that I buried the lead with the background vocals (typically panned a bit right). Once my mistake dawned on me and I started mixing the vocals with little to no panning, it is MUCH better. I really think we need an honest discussion about stereo (or immersive) in live sound.
Same. I took a stab at the board because everyone at church complained it was too loud. It was, and it sounded muddy as well. Through some trial and error came to similar setup, with a mono mix. The next best thing I did was get them to buy in-ears and then eliminated almost all of the monitors (left a couple). Half of the sound problems were related to everyone wanting something turned up louder in the floor wedges. Here, put these in your ear and control your mix.
You have a nice board if you have the option of dynamic eq
@@spookie3000 Yamaha CL3 plus 16 channels of Waves. I consider myself fortunate.
@@stephenstange4194 that's very nice for a church! Most seem to work with either A&H SQ series or Behringer X32/Wing.
A&H SQ console has the option of a bought dynamic EQ add-on. In the SQ, I can only use 4 dynamic EQs at a time, since the other 4 rack FX are dedicated reverbs.
this thing works beato always giving us the best guests knowledge.
Amazing how great people at their job are so interesting to listen to.
That was the funniest clip ever for a long time!!! And every word was true! 😂😂
This concept I have used for 30 years. People could not figure out how my system could be so pleasantly loud, and they could still talk, because I dropped those frequencies from the instruments , but left some of them in the vocals .
One thing I've constantly wrestled with as a FOH engineer at my church is how to make the house have energy without it being loud/painful. Run the system too low and everything sounds dead, but run it too hot and people complain it's too loud. I like how he identifies the specific frequency range that causes pain because now I have something to work with. And I agree that it's often better to cut than to boost.
Yes, I do similar EQ for open space. Simply, I want people to feel "comfortable".
Great that you shared this with us.
The reason to mix insanely loud is for the visceral impact. I was at a Silversun Pickups show recently and I believe they nailed it. My sense was that the mix wasn't overly loud BUT I think they were using a sub bass/octave processor (don't know the exact term for this) to overwhelm your entire being. It was by far the most visceral concert I've ever experienced (I grew up in the 70's and I've been to a lot of shows). The mix was clear as light and ear pain never entered the equation. When they hit the first notes, I thought to myself "Dorothy, we aren't in Kansas anymore". What a performance!
Saw a show back in the 90s - American Rejects. They actually mixed pretty quietly in the place we were at. Took my kids, they wanted to see it. Surprisingly quiet for me.
Maybe using Dave Rat's subs -- belly wobblers!
@@keithsquawk Just today I bought tickets to see Silversun Pickups again! This time, I'm gonna talk to the mixing engineer and see if I can learn about his sub-bass processor and other secret sauces.
It’s called subharmonic synthesis. There are great and easy-to-use rackmount units that do it and of course plugins galore. A common trick used by the pros in both live and recording.
@@the1version422
It's great, but be mindful of masking ... you can add so much bottom octave energy that it can neuter a punchy mix due to our hearing mechanism.
Spot on - been mixing now for 15+ years and these patterns almost always show up even in the studio. Great vid.
Love the approach. Have always started with everything flat and then started cutting.
It makes so much sense to start with all frequencies cut except for the lows and then start adding until it sounds good.
Great stuff! I love the pain band. I can't agree on the mono mix unless you have a single point source PA. Comb filtering from multiple correlated sources will cancel/add frequencies as you move around the venue. Your favorite guitarist will only be heard about every third seat.
Interesting clip! I used to mix lots of shows in stereo, but I approached most of the mix in mono. He's absolutely correct that you're trying to provide maximum room coverage, not mixing a record; but having everything dead-center can also load up the sound field, making some instruments fight each other. However, if you pan competing sounds just slightly off-center you can clean up loading in a way that doesn't rob one side or the other. Also, if you're working with stereo keyboards the sounds might not collapse into mono well - in those cases I pan L/R to 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock, more or less, to give a bit of spread and open up that sound again. You can leverage subtle panning without ruining the experience - just make sure you walk around the room a lot and listen!
And that’s why most of us have tinnitus. 😩😁😁😁
We love music a little bit too much. 😍😍😍
Dave Natale is one of my favorite guests ever.
"I play the James Newton Howard and Friends CD". Very good advice!
I respect those who’ve done bigger gigs than I ever will for longer than I’ve been alive… but I have to say, with the tools available to us today if you’re doing system correction by several steep cuts on a graphic EQ you are under estimating the amount of phase shift induced by that. And further, with the PA’s and FIR DSP’s available to deploy for a given room, there are less destructive ways to achieve the response curve you’re after. Just my thoughts, and to anyone new to live sound finding this thinking a 31 band graphic is your magic bullet, please reconsider and do a deep dive into target curves for live sound system deployment. Most manufacturers today include a fletcher-Munson inspired target curve in their design
Put a simpler way, someone once said every EQ you put on your mains is one you put on EVERY input. Choose wisely.
I'm a software developer, and have been for approximately 40 years (yikes). This video is a perfect example of 'experience'. This illustrates exactly why experience can often top knowledge, and it consists of stuff you can't read a book about. Same concept applies to software development. Great video, loved it.
100% agreed - Software architect here, and musician 🤘😎
It applies to life as a whole. Experience is equivalent to knowledge. You can only learn by experience, and even if you "read" or "study" to gain your knowledge, whatever you read came about from the EXPERIENCE of whoever wrote it and the experience of those before them... which is why science has to be "empirical", to be put to work
Eloquently put. I have always called this type of eq'ing a natural eq. Ear plugs go in when I see engineers tune to pink noise without voicing the system because I know its going to hurt and fatigue me. Great vid!
Best explanation of "scooped" I've ever heard.
Such a nice and cool clip, very informative too... would love to hang with Dave for a day, he seems like a nice dude 😎
"Not painful."
Every live show I've ever been to has been at least 30% too loud, outside of classical concerts. I have to bring earplugs.
Exactly. If a concert is like 120db it doesn't matter how it's EQed, it's going to be painful.
@@Knight_Boxx exactly, if zero is 120db, the painful frequencies are still 105db at minus 15
I agree you need to protect your ears but don't you lose the highs with earplugs?
That has changed over the last 5 years or so. At least in Europe. I think they have gotten better at generating an even sound pressure level throughout the venue - or maybe due to new legislation.
@@mattfoley6082 Since at least 20 years ago there are earplugs used by musicians that have a filter, instead of just being some blocking material between your ear and the sound source. They act like a more or less even dB drop across the whole spectrum, so you don't really lose frequencies, you just perceive a volume drop (like a pad).
I like Alpine Hearing Protection stuff, because I have a small ear canal and I can use their products for kids, but there are many more earplug manufacturers out there.
Hello, i finished a school of sound engineers in 1997, worked for many years in the field and still working. I have to say that if my teachers were giving me this info when i was at the school my life would have been different. It took me many many years to understand what Dave explains in few minutes. Seriously, do that and you wont get fired. You just need to know exactly what youre doing.
I have been a freelance mixer for years and have often pushed the limits of what is possible. Since I've seen this, many things have become easier and it's so obvious
I've been struggling with my in ear monitor mix for some time now fighting cymbal bleed in my vocal mic combined with overall harshness and lack of clarity. I've spent the past couple of days applying these principles to the eq curve on my iem mix and it's really brought out the clarity and removed the brash / harshness out. My ears are comfortable and I can now hear what I need to hear. Dare I say it's even pleasant now. This 6 min "anti-tutorial" has really cleaned up my iems. I highly recommend trying this if you're running in ear monitors.
If you are not constantly singing, try a optogate.
It mutes the mic, if there is nothing in front of it
Superb video, thank you! Tried a little bit of this tonight and notching those low end numbers really helped clean up the overall mix.
I just tested this eq pattern and I don't know how but it actually works like magic! Thank you for this gem. ❤💎
It's not weird! It makes complete sense. Making our band's tones with a quad cortex, we're running it hot in the studio and cutting all the painful frequencies. Means the live engineers at DIY level who don't care about the pain range don't have to think about it. I wish I could pre-mix the drums too! This is awesome to watch. Hopefully more engineers see this and reduce the need for ear plugs!
totally agree 👍👍🔥
One night in a glass atrium called MY Apartment in Halifax Nova Scotia I ended up with an eq Similar to this situation and It was so extreme that I covered the rack lol
Listen to the PA in the venue. Identify problem areas or areas outside of the window of your preferred curve. Look at the response in SMAART to both help confirm and more precisely target what you're hearing (which you can do against a trace). Dial it in without going overboard on the EQ...
Soundcheck.
I have huge respect for both these guys. This video, and the main interview are so insightful and it just shows what great people there are in this industry. My question though, is does he REALLY make such savage cuts to a system's main eq?? I mean it's beyond radical. Surely taking out 15dB at 160 and some at 320, and 640 is gonna take a lot of the "body" out of vocals and a whole bunch of other instruments. I just wish I could go to one of the great Rolling Stones gigs to hear this for myself. I'm certainly going to give it a try at the weekend.
even 40 years ago I EQ'd this way without the 160Hz harmonics. Pulled down the vocal range frequencies and brightened the 10K-20K range. cool. yeah that 1K-3K can hurt your ears.
Dude has the same philosophy as me... just further reinforces the things i've learned over the years of mixing live sound. Either by someone teaching me or discovery.
I learned how to EQ like this from some pros in Atlanta GA from a Company call Seriously Sound inc back in the early 90’s. “White” and Ashley eq’s were preferred. Some of the engineers previously worked with Clair Brothers. Similar methods can also be used with parametrics.
I did this too for years & call this `The Power Mix` - loud, moving & clear
I used to mix with similar graphic settings and my old boss once saw it and called me up on it saying it would sound like shit, but I always had people come up to me saying it sounded great and that it was the loudest gig they'd at that venue, and crucially that it didn't hurt their ears - there was a hard limiter on the system so it wasn't any louder, just perceived loudness. And whenever my boss was engineering it sounded harsh and I had to put ear plugs in after 10mins. I agree with Dave 100%
This makes sense to me, and I've been doing something similar for decades. I mix in gentle stereo. I move things outward just enough to make kik-snare-vox more apparent in the "center channel".
Happy to see that a pro like Dave does/did and thinks the same I did. 🙏🧡
I even pulled back the 3 - 4k area when the band got louder during the concert.
This effect illustrated by the Fletcher-Munson curves finally led to the development of the Deeflexx Systems.
There are no harsh frequencies on axis standing in front of a guitar cab - a balanced sound around the amp ...
🎸🔊_/😀
Bingo!!! If its mixed and eq'd perfectly, no matter how loud or soft the sound is, is like butter.
Rick, do more this videos. As a sound tech as I am, this is very interesting. You know, FOH setup to monitors. Thank you and all the best.
I quit foing foh about 10 years ago but i pretty much did the same thing. Sound guy for the band i was in in the 80s taught me
Wooow! That's exactly how I'be approached this over the last 25 years.
Thank you for this video. I also do live sound and years of doing it, drove me to same conclusions, working method. It feels good, when Dave actually approved, the way I do it. 😀
I think it’s great that you made this video. I wish there was actually guys on RUclips that are live sound engineers that would give demos , have live online talks where questions could be asked etc.
That man’s name is Dave Rat. And there are several others.
There's actually a plethora of these videos. Some have put on gopros and will show their entire setup, show mix, and breakdown.
I highly recommend Rattling Bones Club!
As usual, great content Rick. I went searching for a video on mixing my drums, and seen "Rick Beato 2" Subbed straight away.
I’m glad someone agrees with me on the painful aspect of that frequency range. I find myself cutting that heavily on 99% of my mixes and was wondering if i was doing something wrong lol. I think the muddy frequency area can change based on the room. I totally agree with not boosting much of anything as well.
Did a lot of live mixing in the 70s and 80s. Always mixed for clarity and avoided any sign of clipping. Was sometimes pretty loud but clear. (I like to hear what the vocalist is singing!) Result, no ringing in the ears after gigs, no tinnitus, and apart from normal top-end roll-off for my age my hearing is fine. I often didnt have graphic EQ available but my individual EQs were often down in that 160-360 range, so Dave's idea makes sense.
LMAO.. this guy is a riot.
In 70s we used a HP freq analyzer to tune for each room (mostly big lounges).
Hey Rick, great channel! Dave, What’s The Frequency Kenneth 😂. You two saved me a lot of pain. I have a small studio room but it is acoustically awful for playing guitar along with my studio speakers. The set up is ok for playback and mixing but it gets too shrill aka painful and the bass gets washed out when I play my guitar through the amp in the room. I set up a custom EQ based on your recommendations and the results were amazing. I can get pretty loud and the shrill ice-pick mids are gone and the bass is almost overwhelming where it was barely there. For live playback, your recommendations worked wonders, thank you!
Was told many years ago by a pro FOH/monitor mixing guru that when the mix is too heavy in the ~3k range, it’s likely a sign that the mix engineer has been smoking pot. Apparently the THC relaxes nerves in the inner ear and make you less sensitive to that (annoying) 3K range. I had zero reason to doubt him, as he’s now one of the lead design engineers at Danley Sound Labs. In fact, he lives in the ATL area, and Rick might even know him.
I can't smoke enough to rid of it, I'm trying 😑
It also makes the ability to judge volume much harder. I was never sure if I had my speakers super quiet or deafeningly loud 😆😆
Haha man this be confusing as hell when it happens
Maybe it's because I'm old but I was told basically to do the same thing when I mixed our cover band. The only weird thing was the 160Hz. But everything above 2Khz was flat. Very cool video!
Words of wisdom gained FROM DOING IT!!!!
Oh wow, yes, mixing in mono. One of those things that makes total sense when you start out right at the beginning in sound reinforcement and then you get ‘creative’ after that, which just means the audience misses out. Love this.
"This is not a lesson, it's how I do stuff." lolol I've used a similar phrase many times in a NUMBER of different fields! lol Love the adding of 'if YOU do it...."
After seeing this (on the full length video), I went and tried it. My board now, for the drums group, has 160 turned way down and 2K-4K turned down slightly.
I love mono mixes too until just before studio mastering. One speaker in the studio. Get the mud out get the shrill out. I love multiband compression.
But one night I did live sound for Gene Loves Jezebel (LA) in a small club in Alabama. I had to buy a Personal PA from a pawn shop the day before. I had to turn the PA system up all the way and Michael only had one bit of input the whole night all he said was " lots of reverb" I think I turned the reverb all the way up too. He talked a lot between songs and it was pretty funny how much reverb there was during his talking
It all hertz - I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to EQ this way.
Great lesson. I find the PA of my workplace has harshness at 2.5k and 5.5kHz as well and have been cutting those frequencies for everything 🤔
Lot of simple wisdom there for live. Cut, never boost above zero if possible, run mono, cut the harsh stuff so you can crank it more.
Mixing mono: THANK YOU! I do the same because it's just common sense that the only person who benefits from stereo is the person who is equidistant from two sound sources. I've long advocated that everyone should be hearing the same thing, regardless of where they're sitting (or standing).
Wow, this was an instant fix to my mix. And I really like that mono mentality
Also in the studio, taming harshness is as fundamental as controlling the low end. Since I've started to make a little smooth dip in that area of the spectrum (mainly on vocals), correctly equalizing the elements with harshness content, I would say that it's what really get me into the "pro" phase of the mixing journey and I began to hear/feel a decent level of "pro" sound in the next mixes. It all started from the concept behind the Fletcher and Munson Curves. I really suggest to study it to anyone who is at the beginning of the journey.
This graph has some similarities to the equal loudness curve, super interesting!
man ive always mixed with certain "pain" freqs that i hated . no one has ever complained, but ive never heard of anyone else doin this... its awesome to hear someone else with this philosophy
I was fortunate enough to be trained by someone who does large tours early in my career. The two most important lessons I learned from him were: knock people off their feet, but don’t hurt their ears, and make it sound like a band instead of individual instruments.
So helpful! Thank you Rick and Dave. My additional question to him would be does he do the same for outside as well as inside? And what is his PA tuning track again?
Excellent advice. A lot depends on the venue of course, so there might already be dampening/enhancement happening - I'd imagine mix engineers are using real-time frequency analysers as a starting point? Gotta also remember, if you go too loud, that in itself will also be painful.
Thank you! for giving it a name we can all use.Hate 2k freq, am always flooring it....Pain frequencies!
I loved his work ever since I heard him in the late 80s . However in 2024 this is not necessarily the way to go, usually there will be a good system engineer to tune the p.a. and you don’t have to do those drastic moves on a graphic eq. Don’t forget this is meant to enable you to mix loud but on the other hand you are removing a lot of energy so you in the end you might not be able to turn up the system as loud as you want. This comes from someone with over 30 years of experience.
I remember gong to a show in a very nice hall and the PA was CRISPY! I figured whoever was at FOH had mid-high loss and was compensating by kicking similar freqs like Dave is mentioning. Went to another show in an old movie theater and, since I wanted to be close to the stage, ended up sitting nearly directly in front of the stage left stack. I had plugs, but part way into the show I took them out to check and it sounded like I was listening to a very nice home stereo - loud but not uncomfortable. I'm guessing after listening to Dave's approach FOH was doing something similar. (I did put the plugs back in JIC since my proximity to the stack was what it was.) Also, what Dave mentions at the end is not only spot on for the right reasons, it also would take much more power from the amps to make that very wide venue into a 20 ft. wide room (or so I've been told).
Great interview going to have to watch this a few times
Great stuff, and simple. Thank you both!
On my summer tour we are flying out fills of K2’s that are a reverse stereo image of the mains so I can mix in full stereo without the worry. The only issue is the reverse of the kit to stage perspective for those on the far outside.
One of the reasons I never go anywhere in life without earplugs.
Ear buds with active noise cancelling also work very well.
@@generalgrafx Indeed! Even better.
I worked for a sci-fi convention for 25 years. The sound guy worked sound for a studio in LA. I was basically a grunt working setting up everything he told me to do. He would mix the speakers in stereo but would have every other speaker would alternate. So Left right left right around the room.
It is roughly, and I do mean roughly, the scooped mids "smile pattern" we all used in the 80s...minus the excessive boosting of bass and treble we did on those Pioneer and Alpine units.
I once got a 30 minute lesson on psychoacoustics from a guy at Neural Audio who has forgot more on how we perceive sound than most audio people will ever learn. And it’s about perception not what looks like a flat signal on a scope. How we hear goes all the way back to when we were just another animal in the food chain and trying desperately to get to the top and not to be eaten by the apex predators. Once you learn those concepts, you not only mix better, but you learn how we can process sound for different environments and most importantly in a digital environment, how and where you can save bits but keep your sound perception quality high. The frequencies identified here are not only parts that annoy us, their lower and upper harmonics do too. With modern tools you can reduce those frequencies and keep listeners happy while actually dropping bit rates. It’s still a dark art but the science is catching up.
That's actually what I've been doing on those frequencies for years now, I guess I'm not crazy. even helped in monitors with 3 vocalists battling over volume 👍
I tried mixing in stereo one time a long time ago, in a small venue, because I was asked to. I even told them that the ones in the center are the only ones that might get the full mix of musicians, but the ones on the left and right won't. It's great if you're sitting at home, but not for a gig. Mono all the way!
4:10, I stuck watching the EQ graph thinking that it’s familiar to me, I open my digital XR18 and turns out that over the time I ‘ve been approaching that curve without noticing, much smaller gigs ofcourse, and not cutting completely the freqs, but very near to the same freq ranges
That’s funny! I did this kind of FOH PA Tuning for almost 30 years and felt every single time guilty, but it always worked ☝️😉😂
I do a similar thing, but not the same way, and not always for the same reason. I don't mix as loud as humanly possible because I'm mixing for a church and the goal isn't a concert, but to support the congregation. So I pull low mids down on almost everything because it's just muddy. It lacks clarity and it's the frequency range that puts people to sleep (during the sermon). There are some minor narrow rises that I do in the pain region on the EQ for the sake of improving clarity, and I often shelf the extreme highs up some at least as far as the LPFs. In turn, however, I compress in such as a way as to bring that whole high range down. I'm working with amateur musicians for the most part and that simply helps control them.
But the issue with the pain range is something I've come across. We brought in a former audio tech to run our Christmas concert last year. He stepped down because he was losing his hearing, but said he had gotten these fancy hearing aids that correct those frequencies he can't hear anymore. The highs went through the roof and since it was a concert he cranked it up to 100 dBa. It sounded great to him (and to our integrator who has the same hearing issue - and same solution), but it was hurting everyone's ears.
So just a PSA for audio engineers, if you have significant hearing loss, those expensive hearing aids can only go so far to correct your hearing. Don't be fooled into thinking you're hearing as well as you did when you didn't need hearing aids. My hearing is fine for my age, but I have normal hearing loss for my age. I keep young people around for those really high frequencies I can't hear like I used to.
I started with the bottom too. Best and cleanest bottom, everything else fits in there.