It isnt for me, but thats the beauty of cymbals! There are so many options and people can really seek out the sounds that they love. Great video as always Timothy!!!
Billy Drummond's K's by far were one of the best I've ever played hands down.Timothy Roberts cymbals are by far the best when it comes to hand made cymbals , he knows his craft 👏
That cymbal is crazy! I love how when you're riding in that middle section between the bell and the inner rivet holes, that you can hear those swish washes coming out! I'd love to hear it with rivets just for the giggles of it!
Very funky! One of the first old K's I have heard that is worth the hype. 15 rivet holes is excessive, but I think that it would sound great with a couple steel rivets. Great video.
I love this cymbal, and had the chance to play it myself at Tim's house. If you manage to actually copy it, I'd be interested! Closest I've heard to Blakey's "Free For All" ride.
Love hearing that everyone hates the sound hahaha. Probably one of the top 3 cymbals I have ever heard. Just beautifully nasty. Man more for me I guess
Istarted playing in 63 and after some cheap Meinl and Paiste trash I found Zildjians with a stamp you'll not find on US or Canadian made. Mine had purely turkish letters with the exeption of Istanbul, a rather rough hammering and never even sizes. My HH was abt. 13.5", crashes 16.? and 18.5 my ride was abt. 21".I later found a 17.5 and sold it to a guy in Paris who was really happy with ist. Later on I use K's on my stage sets and was never ever disappointed.
I cannot understand why a hole would be drilled so far up the cymbal. I don't think a rivet can be installed so far up the body. Why 15 holes makes no sense to me. I liked the cymbal. Reminded me of a 402. Timothy, do you have any info on the Sabian SR2's. I picked up a 20" medium, and it is definitely a ride, but for sound... cannot match it to any Sabian ride sound.
Holes drilled up farther on the cymbal have the effect of dampening sustain, and/or weird hums. Especially when you account for how many there are, I would imagine this was the reason on this cymbal. It was surely much more wild when it was made in the 50s. Yeah, the SR2 series is refurbished b20 sabian from all their various series, classified into weight and distinguished by that finish that's done with a grinding wheel to remove the surface. I've heard they can be anything from the cheaper B20 lines all the way up to the HH and HHX lines (maybe even the artisan too?). That's all I know about them.
LOL, at 5:07 you say it's "controlled" then immediately say it's "chaotic". That's about the biggest contradiction I've ever heard. 😆 😛 Beauty is definitely in the ears of the beholder. But this would be the last ride I'd ever choose...like my last resort rather than my "desert island" ride cymbal. The fact that someone tried to "fix" it by adding up to FIFTEEN Rivets...where you would normally just need 3 or 4...should tell you something. 😛 The underlying harmonics are primarily all Odd-Order which are the most offensive. It needs at least a few thin strips or patches of gaffer tape applied to the underside in select areas to tame those harmonics, the build-up, and offensive wash, but I think even doing that will probably bring out even more of its poor fundamental tones and offensive underlying character. Of course, this is all My Personal Opinion, so there's that. ;-) And TBF, you have absolutely NO IDEA How or IF the sound of this cymbal was different when it was new. That's just pure speculation. The actual response of our own EARS over time due to age and hearing loss (especially for drummers!) will differ FAR MORE over time than any minute change in the cymbal's character! ...I'm an old enough drummer to know :) as I have owned many of my cymbals for over 45 years which were purchased both brand new as well as already old "classics". My father had a great story about our memory and perception of past experiences of "fond" memories...sights, sounds, smells, etc. He was in the Army in the Korean War as a comms/radio operator on the front lines at several of the major battles...Bloody Ridge, Kapyong, Chosin Reservoir, etc. Any of the decent food/clothing/boots/gear were all "filtered" and taken by the officers and higher-ups well before the bulk of the scraps made it to the front lines. But my grandmother would send him care packages every so often, and in one of those care packages were two tins of premium canned sardines. He said that eating those sardines was like candy and manna from heaven...so amazingly good! Skip ahead...While grocery shopping one day a year or so after having returned home to the States from the war, he saw that same brand and tin of anchovies on the shelves at the supermarket and was immediately excited to get them home and relish in their exquisite flavor once again. But upon getting home and opening the first tin he said that he nearly gagged and couldn't bring himself to eat them, LOL. All to say that our perceptions of things in our past often change once they are normalized with new, everyday experiences, such as with comparing cymbals. Our Expectation and Confirmation Bias also heavily skew our perceptions of reality as well. i.e. It's an old, classic "K" so it's got to have some magic pixie dust, "I just need to play it properly". One of my absolute best ride cymbals ever (IMO) is a modern ~3 year old 20" Zildjian K Constantinople Medium Ride. The other is one particular Sabian 18" AAX OMNI Ride that a local music shop employee suggested I should hear and try. He was right! But NONE of the other many previous AAX & HHX OMNI cymbals I had tried had impressed me AT ALL, and I wrote them off as being a gimmick. BUT, this ONE is special...just as you think this particular old Zildjian K is special, ha! When you perform recordings of all of your cymbals both solo and playing with the band you begin to realize which ones ACTUALLY sound great when recorded and really compliment the kit and the song itself. /END OF RANT
Haha I take your point that it sounds ridiculous to say “controlled” and “chaotic” near the same sentence, but for me there is a very interesting mixture of those qualities in this cymbal (“reigned in chaos” would be a better term). I’ll certainly stand by my points about the age effecting the alloy. It’s scientifically proven that the process of metal separation and hardening is taking place, and from a makers perspective (and knowing the different variants of bronze alloy) anytime you have additional brittleness/hardness/stiffness/compression you have a correlating sound change (ie. Better stick definition, contained spread, changes in the various frequency responses). I make my original cymbals in the same manner these old Ks were made (more or less), and I cannot get the same sound characteristics that these 70+ year old cymbals have. New cymbals sound open, resonant, and “wide”. Vintage cymbals tend to be controlled, sharp, brittle feeling, and smokey. Knowing all that, plus playing literally thousands of cymbals that have come through my shop over the years gives me a pretty good idea of how age is affective the sound. I’ll certainly stand by your points about perspective. That’s maybe the biggest factor drummer’s rarely account for when speaking about cymbal and drum sounds. I deal with that on a daily basis. I’ll make a cymbal, play it, hate the sound, and put it away; only to come back a week later to play it and find that I now love it. Lastly, I should qualify that I tend to dislike old Ks, personally. I’ve never gravitated towards those sounds and (shhh don’t tell anyone) I think I can make a way better sounding cymbal than just about any old k, including this one. However, I try to stay open about sounds so I can learn a thing or two. I’m learning a bunch working on making some tributes to this cymbal. Thanks for taking the time to write (or rant… haha) and for checking this video out!
@@ReverieDrumCo Yes, it's scientifically proven that metals and metal alloys change "over time" as with any other natural minerals and elements. But not in the short timeframes of our lifespans, unless subjected to/exposed to extreme environmental conditions, such as extreme heat, cold, pressure, or corrosive elements. When you are 80 years old, you need to use the exact same microphone & recording equipment, and the same unchanged room to record this cymbal (or any other one) and compare it to your original recording in 2024 to hear exactly how much it may have changed. Unfortunately, that will be nearly impossible to accurately and identically replicate, and obviously your hearing capabilities will have significantly diminished by that time as well. Even the diaphragm and/or electronics in the microphone you used are likely to deteriorate and change more than the ratio and properties of the bronze alloy. :p It's also been scientifically proven that our aural memory is incredibly poor unless we have a direct and immediate comparison for reference.
@@ReverieDrumCo And I'll add that your admittance that you tend to "dislike old Ks" is just another form of Expectation or Confirmation Bias that will skew your perception and determinations regarding the sound characteristics or properties of any given cymbal. The effects and results are analogous to the following scientific listening/hearing experiment that will take less than 5 minutes to read... Search for: "Audio Musings by Sean Olive - The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests" Dr. Sean Olive is a PhD researcher at JBL/Harman who worked alongside colleagues such as Dr. Floyd Toole, who's book I also highly recommend for anyone who records and/or listens to recorded music... "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" (latest edition).
@@bbfoto7248 oh, trust me, it’s fully impossible for me to replicate this cymbal. That’s not the point though. It’s more about the process of trying that I find interesting. All the hypothesizing and theorizing I do about cymbals is the fun part to me. Technically speaking, you’re correct. Mics, rooms, hearing loss or lack thereof are all things that change how we perceive sound. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth exploring the topic! There are theories out there that if a cymbal was left for a couple hundred thousand years, it would have enough time to fully separate into copper and tin. We can agree to disagree that decades is plenty of time for the sound of a cymbal to change though. I’ve had enough firsthand experience to know that.
Yeah… it certainly isn’t for everyone. I like it so much because it’s a perfect example of how age can take a garbage sounding cymbal and turn it into something I would call musical and interesting.
Oh I agree with you there… that flat area is a mess. I should probably specify that I rarely like the old Ks that come into my shop. I’ll be interested to hear people’s thoughts on my tributes cause they wil not be nearly this gnarly and ugly.
It isnt for me, but thats the beauty of cymbals! There are so many options and people can really seek out the sounds that they love. Great video as always Timothy!!!
Well said!
Billy Drummond's K's by far were one of the best I've ever played hands down.Timothy Roberts cymbals are by far the best when it comes to hand made cymbals , he knows his craft 👏
Thanks!
Love love it! Will be interested to see what you come up with!
That cymbal is crazy! I love how when you're riding in that middle section between the bell and the inner rivet holes, that you can hear those swish washes coming out! I'd love to hear it with rivets just for the giggles of it!
The new video I just posted has the cymbal with the rivets in!
ruclips.net/video/XskFGIelqGM/видео.html
Very funky! One of the first old K's I have heard that is worth the hype. 15 rivet holes is excessive, but I think that it would sound great with a couple steel rivets. Great video.
When you said 19.5" cymbal size, I was reminded of my vintage 50cm Ufip cymbal, which is between 19 and 20 inches
I found a 70 year old ceramic jug of muscat not long ago at a thrift shop. This cymbal sounds like that cymbal tasted. .
haha!
mellow warm stick attack ..beautiful
I love this cymbal, and had the chance to play it myself at Tim's house. If you manage to actually copy it, I'd be interested! Closest I've heard to Blakey's "Free For All" ride.
Very cool! Yeah, I'll certainly be making a good amount of these type tributes.
Sooo sweet!
Love hearing that everyone hates the sound hahaha. Probably one of the top 3 cymbals I have ever heard. Just beautifully nasty. Man more for me I guess
Istarted playing in 63 and after some cheap Meinl and Paiste trash I found Zildjians with a stamp you'll not find on US or Canadian made. Mine had purely turkish letters with the exeption of Istanbul, a rather rough hammering and never even sizes. My HH was abt. 13.5", crashes 16.? and 18.5
my ride was abt. 21".I later found a 17.5 and sold it to a guy in Paris who was really happy with ist.
Later on I use K's on my stage sets and was never ever disappointed.
That's awesome!
Cool and informative as always! It's interesting that the keyhole is 8MM or are my eyes deceiving me? My old K has a 6MM keyhole and is also a 19.5".
Yeah this hole was probably widened at some point.
What’s the 2nd stick you use? At 4:08
@aaroneasley1548
ProMark Finesse 5B wood round tip.
The Nylon Tip was the Vic Firth Terra 7AN (7A + N = nylon tip)
Yep!
I cannot understand why a hole would be drilled so far up the cymbal. I don't think a rivet can be installed so far up the body. Why 15 holes makes no sense to me.
I liked the cymbal. Reminded me of a 402.
Timothy, do you have any info on the Sabian SR2's. I picked up a 20" medium, and it is definitely a ride, but for sound... cannot match it to any Sabian ride sound.
Holes drilled up farther on the cymbal have the effect of dampening sustain, and/or weird hums. Especially when you account for how many there are, I would imagine this was the reason on this cymbal. It was surely much more wild when it was made in the 50s.
Yeah, the SR2 series is refurbished b20 sabian from all their various series, classified into weight and distinguished by that finish that's done with a grinding wheel to remove the surface. I've heard they can be anything from the cheaper B20 lines all the way up to the HH and HHX lines (maybe even the artisan too?). That's all I know about them.
TY
is this the cymbal that funch copied? he did a great job with it. can’t wait to hear what you gonna come wit it
Yep! It’s the same one.
K Mart?
haha thankfully no.
LOL, at 5:07 you say it's "controlled" then immediately say it's "chaotic". That's about the biggest contradiction I've ever heard. 😆 😛
Beauty is definitely in the ears of the beholder. But this would be the last ride I'd ever choose...like my last resort rather than my "desert island" ride cymbal.
The fact that someone tried to "fix" it by adding up to FIFTEEN Rivets...where you would normally just need 3 or 4...should tell you something. 😛
The underlying harmonics are primarily all Odd-Order which are the most offensive. It needs at least a few thin strips or patches of gaffer tape applied to the underside in select areas to tame those harmonics, the build-up, and offensive wash, but I think even doing that will probably bring out even more of its poor fundamental tones and offensive underlying character. Of course, this is all My Personal Opinion, so there's that. ;-)
And TBF, you have absolutely NO IDEA How or IF the sound of this cymbal was different when it was new. That's just pure speculation.
The actual response of our own EARS over time due to age and hearing loss (especially for drummers!) will differ FAR MORE over time than any minute change in the cymbal's character! ...I'm an old enough drummer to know :) as I have owned many of my cymbals for over 45 years which were purchased both brand new as well as already old "classics".
My father had a great story about our memory and perception of past experiences of "fond" memories...sights, sounds, smells, etc. He was in the Army in the Korean War as a comms/radio operator on the front lines at several of the major battles...Bloody Ridge, Kapyong, Chosin Reservoir, etc.
Any of the decent food/clothing/boots/gear were all "filtered" and taken by the officers and higher-ups well before the bulk of the scraps made it to the front lines. But my grandmother would send him care packages every so often, and in one of those care packages were two tins of premium canned sardines. He said that eating those sardines was like candy and manna from heaven...so amazingly good!
Skip ahead...While grocery shopping one day a year or so after having returned home to the States from the war, he saw that same brand and tin of anchovies on the shelves at the supermarket and was immediately excited to get them home and relish in their exquisite flavor once again.
But upon getting home and opening the first tin he said that he nearly gagged and couldn't bring himself to eat them, LOL. All to say that our perceptions of things in our past often change once they are normalized with new, everyday experiences, such as with comparing cymbals.
Our Expectation and Confirmation Bias also heavily skew our perceptions of reality as well. i.e. It's an old, classic "K" so it's got to have some magic pixie dust, "I just need to play it properly".
One of my absolute best ride cymbals ever (IMO) is a modern ~3 year old 20" Zildjian K Constantinople Medium Ride. The other is one particular Sabian 18" AAX OMNI Ride that a local music shop employee suggested I should hear and try. He was right! But NONE of the other many previous AAX & HHX OMNI cymbals I had tried had impressed me AT ALL, and I wrote them off as being a gimmick. BUT, this ONE is special...just as you think this particular old Zildjian K is special, ha!
When you perform recordings of all of your cymbals both solo and playing with the band you begin to realize which ones ACTUALLY sound great when recorded and really compliment the kit and the song itself.
/END OF RANT
Haha I take your point that it sounds ridiculous to say “controlled” and “chaotic” near the same sentence, but for me there is a very interesting mixture of those qualities in this cymbal (“reigned in chaos” would be a better term).
I’ll certainly stand by my points about the age effecting the alloy. It’s scientifically proven that the process of metal separation and hardening is taking place, and from a makers perspective (and knowing the different variants of bronze alloy) anytime you have additional brittleness/hardness/stiffness/compression you have a correlating sound change (ie. Better stick definition, contained spread, changes in the various frequency responses). I make my original cymbals in the same manner these old Ks were made (more or less), and I cannot get the same sound characteristics that these 70+ year old cymbals have. New cymbals sound open, resonant, and “wide”. Vintage cymbals tend to be controlled, sharp, brittle feeling, and smokey. Knowing all that, plus playing literally thousands of cymbals that have come through my shop over the years gives me a pretty good idea of how age is affective the sound.
I’ll certainly stand by your points about perspective. That’s maybe the biggest factor drummer’s rarely account for when speaking about cymbal and drum sounds. I deal with that on a daily basis. I’ll make a cymbal, play it, hate the sound, and put it away; only to come back a week later to play it and find that I now love it.
Lastly, I should qualify that I tend to dislike old Ks, personally. I’ve never gravitated towards those sounds and (shhh don’t tell anyone) I think I can make a way better sounding cymbal than just about any old k, including this one. However, I try to stay open about sounds so I can learn a thing or two. I’m learning a bunch working on making some tributes to this cymbal.
Thanks for taking the time to write (or rant… haha) and for checking this video out!
@@ReverieDrumCo
Yes, it's scientifically proven that metals and metal alloys change "over time" as with any other natural minerals and elements.
But not in the short timeframes of our lifespans, unless subjected to/exposed to extreme environmental conditions, such as extreme heat, cold, pressure, or corrosive elements.
When you are 80 years old, you need to use the exact same microphone & recording equipment, and the same unchanged room to record this cymbal (or any other one) and compare it to your original recording in 2024 to hear exactly how much it may have changed.
Unfortunately, that will be nearly impossible to accurately and identically replicate, and obviously your hearing capabilities will have significantly diminished by that time as well. Even the diaphragm and/or electronics in the microphone you used are likely to deteriorate and change more than the ratio and properties of the bronze alloy. :p
It's also been scientifically proven that our aural memory is incredibly poor unless we have a direct and immediate comparison for reference.
@@ReverieDrumCo
And I'll add that your admittance that you tend to "dislike old Ks" is just another form of Expectation or Confirmation Bias that will skew your perception and determinations regarding the sound characteristics or properties of any given cymbal.
The effects and results are analogous to the following scientific listening/hearing experiment that will take less than 5 minutes to read...
Search for:
"Audio Musings by Sean Olive - The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests"
Dr. Sean Olive is a PhD researcher at JBL/Harman who worked alongside colleagues such as Dr. Floyd Toole, who's book I also highly recommend for anyone who records and/or listens to recorded music...
"Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" (latest edition).
@@bbfoto7248 oh, trust me, it’s fully impossible for me to replicate this cymbal. That’s not the point though. It’s more about the process of trying that I find interesting. All the hypothesizing and theorizing I do about cymbals is the fun part to me. Technically speaking, you’re correct. Mics, rooms, hearing loss or lack thereof are all things that change how we perceive sound. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth exploring the topic!
There are theories out there that if a cymbal was left for a couple hundred thousand years, it would have enough time to fully separate into copper and tin. We can agree to disagree that decades is plenty of time for the sound of a cymbal to change though. I’ve had enough firsthand experience to know that.
Hmmm. Don’t like it
Yeah… it certainly isn’t for everyone. I like it so much because it’s a perfect example of how age can take a garbage sounding cymbal and turn it into something I would call musical and interesting.
@@ReverieDrumCo interesting for sure. Still a little dry and trashy/clangy for my tastes.
I usually agree with your taste, but not here. The flat area is just yuck - to my ear. Love your vids though.
Oh I agree with you there… that flat area is a mess. I should probably specify that I rarely like the old Ks that come into my shop. I’ll be interested to hear people’s thoughts on my tributes cause they wil not be nearly this gnarly and ugly.