The argument for vintage cymbals is that we've grown up listening to music and they are on the recordings.. The classic records are masterpieces for good reason which is why they get revisited. So when you hear a vintage cymbal or even a Ludwig supraphonic it hits you in the gut and there is just an intangible feeling. It can be instant when you find a good old cymbal. It's a familiarity thing. What's familiar can obviously change but we aren't there yet. This why vintage cymbals or similar still reign supreme
Incredible job on the tributes. The consistency between the first few especially is super impressive! I’m in the camp of liking the sound, but maybe only if I had other colors to choose from too. You are really honing your craft, dude. Loving your new Prism series too!
Interesting project, Timothy. I liked the 20" 1757g, and the 20" 1776g. However, I also liked that the 21" had a 'ceiling' in regards to sustain, to me stick definition, and tones being washed away by the rides sustain is a real downer. Again, really good work, and thanks for sharing.
Those hums and barks in the context of music and other musicians can be what’s needed to make complex music work. So in a pop world nobody’s riding with any conviction or pushing the band with dynamics etc. You often want one consistent tone. But I’d say you nailed it! I wouldn’t return to take that or even it out more. I at least believe that is what differentiates you.
Weirdly enough, I still like the original the best. I love a lot of the ones you made, especially the fact that the bells don’t activate as much of the rest of cymbal as you said. Great video, your excitement and passion for this project came through very clearly and that’s really fun to watch!
Such an amazing project! I appreciate you sharing this stuff with us, and so interesting to learn what makes that old K sound like it does. I would more likely use one of the 20s you made for a gig, the had a little more sparkle and life. The K seems like a real “blend” kind of cymbal, your 20s had blend but also some “cut” for a band mix. The flat top bit and hum, overtones reminds me of a 20 Dream Vintage Bliss I have, where you also have to be careful where you hit it, some areas sound wonderful and some add so much hum you lose all definition and drown out 1/2 the band. Again, amazing video series, better than a Netflix drama series. Thank you!
As far as Vintage cymbals, i do not like old Ks. In general. Im sure there are some id like, butnim general i dont dog old Ks. However, i do love Old As and Old Paistes. Tim, you are an absolute artist with cymbals! I can not wait to hear your heavier cymbals you jabe coming out!!! O sure hope Tim Metz loves these and appreciates your craft!!! Id love to hear him play and go off woth that 21! Like i said, its super similar to some rides ive heard on some MM&W albums that Billy Martin plays.
I think I'm in the same boat as you that I typically don't love old Ks (with exceptions). I actually think Tim's is a pretty good one, but I dig yours quite a bit, especially the first one. I think it captures the essence of Tim's but cleans it up a bit.
Great series Tim, I spent so long and so much money chasing that old K magic like a junkie. I fetishized that elusive tone and was disappointed every single time FedEx showed up with one. I’d think I’d finally hear what I was looking for on a reverb listening only to have it show up and be the cymbal equivalent of a 72 pinto with 2 bad cylinders. In the end a lot of the old Ks sound like dog shit. I wound up getting a set of Nicky’s cymbals (sorry Tim, it’s before I discovered you) and have been exceptionally happy. Sure I get the bug once in a while, But it’s mostly a closed issue and I don’t feel like a crackhead. Additionally I like mixing bright and dark cymbals, I feel it really expands your palette and options. You’re asking the tough questions Tim, thanks for doing Gods work. (Yes God plays drums…..obviously)
great work ! l like the original and yours ! l like a tiny bit of clangyness, just a touch.... reminds me of the old records and Tony... Seems the thing hardest to capture or recreate to my ears and eyes are the old K bells.
The bells are not too hard to capture if you let loose and choose to create a wild shape. With these, I wanted to keep things a touch cleaner (even though I did design in some irregularities)
i like that 22”,the what i call icy stick sound followed by the dark wash is my fav charcteristics of some old k’s that i played. all these old k tributes or copies always have these dark wash,trash but they miss this icy stick sound. i wonder why.
Those sounded killer with the rivets!!! Loved the sounds of all of them.... As far as the 19.5" you didn't like, what if you reversed the edge, and made it similar to a swish knocker kind of cymbal? I mean what do you do with your "rejects" (which still sound better than a lot of others I've heard) You said it's thinner, so... Thanks for posting these!
I've worked that one too much to change it into something like a swish. If I worked it any further, I'd probably strengthen the upper section so it was a touch taller. I don't really have any rejects these days. The mantra "there's a drummer for every cymbal" somewhat applies.
Tim. Every cymbal you made sounds better than the old k. I have some 2007 14 K con hi hats that are too heavy and chunky i think i’m going to send to ya. Hopefully you can make them more suited for my taste.
20" 1757g for me any ole day. Man, your ears must get fatigued. maybe not though. My old 19.5" K has a 6mm keyhole. Doesn't look like Tim's does. Correct?
Every day my ears get fatigued. I've learned not to trust myself too much if I've worked a full day hammering. I rarely ever finalize a cymbal after 4pm for that reason. Tim's K has the bigger keyhole. Probably routed out at some point.
21" seemed the most logical. But these are all too thin for survival. Nyc or on the road. Not sure what is happening in other cities. Thin hammered cymbals are great for broken time, modern pretty jazz gigs. But for a straight ahead drummer that is playing in many different rooms with different size groups the thin beautiful sounding cymbals don't cut it. Need to sacrifice some beauty for an all around-er. This is why you still see old k 22"s or A's, some 20", paiste 602"s, and for better or worse modern zildjian. I'm talking as main rides in nyc for working drummers. You don't see agops, or even Spizzichino. You see the new cymbal smith cymbals with modern guys that don't play a lot of straight ahead. I'm biased but would love to see a larger percentage of useful main rides that people like Louis Hayes, Billy Higgins, Ben Riley, Jimmy Cobb, Mel Lewis would play. They didn't play thin cymbals but had no trouble controlling a cymbal in a small room. Main reason is stick sound as a function. It's like it's a couple decibels higher or separate on a good old K. Old stamp k's can suffer from being too mellow fit back this claim. I gen mean later k's starting with intermediate stamp. There's obv more to this, but that's all now.
While I really agree with you in principle about most indie cymbals being too thin for the gigging drummer, I wouldn't say at all that these are too thin for survival. This project was about capturing the sound of Tim's old stamp K that (as far as I know) he's gigged with a bunch. He uses nylon tips which helps, but that original cymbal is by no means unusable on the gig. As for my recreations, I guess it's up for debate. That being said, you're 100% right that beauty has to be sacrificed for a cymbal that you'll be able to depend on regardless of the gig. I've been making a bunch more cymbals that are heavier for that reason. While my personal preference for a 22" would be the 2400g range, there's nothing like a well made, balanced 22" at 2700g - 2800g. Another element that has to be factored in is how the handmade cymbal is balanced from a tension/stiffness standpoint. I've played many indie cymbals that are thin but also out of balance so they feel messy and muddy. I've also played ones that are even thinner, but sound way more focused and clear. Thanks for the comment and for watching!
The argument for vintage cymbals is that we've grown up listening to music and they are on the recordings.. The classic records are masterpieces for good reason which is why they get revisited. So when you hear a vintage cymbal or even a Ludwig supraphonic it hits you in the gut and there is just an intangible feeling. It can be instant when you find a good old cymbal. It's a familiarity thing. What's familiar can obviously change but we aren't there yet. This why vintage cymbals or similar still reign supreme
I don't particularly gravitate to this particular sound, but I prefer *all* of your tribute versions to the original! Amazing work.
Cool, thanks!
Incredible job on the tributes. The consistency between the first few especially is super impressive! I’m in the camp of liking the sound, but maybe only if I had other colors to choose from too. You are really honing your craft, dude. Loving your new Prism series too!
Thanks! It's always a process!
The 21” sounds the most pleasing to my ears. Nice touch! I’ll be on the lookout for your cymbals at the drum shops in my area. Cheers
Thanks!
I like the tim metz intro lick😅😅
It's the best intro on a YT ever... haha
Interesting project, Timothy. I liked the 20" 1757g, and the 20" 1776g. However, I also liked that the 21" had a 'ceiling' in regards to sustain, to me stick definition, and tones being washed away by the rides sustain is a real downer. Again, really good work, and thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Great stuff, Tim. As always.
Some really beautiful pieces of artwork you have created
Those hums and barks in the context of music and other musicians can be what’s needed to make complex music work. So in a pop world nobody’s riding with any conviction or pushing the band with dynamics etc. You often want one consistent tone. But I’d say you nailed it! I wouldn’t return to take that or even it out more. I at least believe that is what differentiates you.
Thanks Lou! I agree totally with your assessment!
The 1776 20 is my favorite "smaller" cymbal, the 21 is screaming Billy Martin to me. Thats my favorite of the bunch. Killer job Tim!!
Sweet! Billy Martin is the bees knees
Weirdly enough, I still like the original the best. I love a lot of the ones you made, especially the fact that the bells don’t activate as much of the rest of cymbal as you said. Great video, your excitement and passion for this project came through very clearly and that’s really fun to watch!
The original is a killer cymbal! Thanks for watching!
Such an amazing project! I appreciate you sharing this stuff with us, and so interesting to learn what makes that old K sound like it does. I would more likely use one of the 20s you made for a gig, the had a little more sparkle and life. The K seems like a real “blend” kind of cymbal, your 20s had blend but also some “cut” for a band mix. The flat top bit and hum, overtones reminds me of a 20 Dream Vintage Bliss I have, where you also have to be careful where you hit it, some areas sound wonderful and some add so much hum you lose all definition and drown out 1/2 the band. Again, amazing video series, better than a Netflix drama series. Thank you!
Thanks for watching! Yeah, those hummy areas have to be approached with care. They can be really interesting if utilized properly.
Sounds really good.
20's were my favorites too. Nice work, Tim!
Not even part of the conversation in this video, but;
The Prism series is sooo nice.
haha thank you!
21" 1995g best for me, rides beautifully and crash-wooshes just right❤
Nice! Thanks!
Amazing work. Badass for sure.
As far as Vintage cymbals, i do not like old Ks. In general. Im sure there are some id like, butnim general i dont dog old Ks. However, i do love Old As and Old Paistes. Tim, you are an absolute artist with cymbals! I can not wait to hear your heavier cymbals you jabe coming out!!! O sure hope Tim Metz loves these and appreciates your craft!!! Id love to hear him play and go off woth that 21! Like i said, its super similar to some rides ive heard on some MM&W albums that Billy Martin plays.
Thanks Brent! I'm feeling really excited about working towards the brighter vintage sounds. I've got a BUNCH coming...
I think I'm in the same boat as you that I typically don't love old Ks (with exceptions). I actually think Tim's is a pretty good one, but I dig yours quite a bit, especially the first one. I think it captures the essence of Tim's but cleans it up a bit.
Thanks!
The origibnal one has a quiet shadow to it's sound that the others just dont have... it plays under its self.
Love that way of describing it!
Great series Tim, I spent so long and so much money chasing that old K magic like a junkie. I fetishized that elusive tone and was disappointed every single time FedEx showed up with one. I’d think I’d finally hear what I was looking for on a reverb listening only to have it show up and be the cymbal equivalent of a 72 pinto with 2 bad cylinders. In the end a lot of the old Ks sound like dog shit. I wound up getting a set of Nicky’s cymbals (sorry Tim, it’s before I discovered you) and have been exceptionally happy. Sure I get the bug once in a while, But it’s mostly a closed issue and I don’t feel like a crackhead. Additionally I like mixing bright and dark cymbals, I feel it really expands your palette and options. You’re asking the tough questions Tim, thanks for doing Gods work. (Yes God plays drums…..obviously)
Yes he does! haha. Also, Nick is legit one of my favorite smiths. One of the modern greats.
To my ears, you got the closest with the 1608g one. Although I still slightly prefer the original. Great video, very informative!
Thanks for watching!
great work !
l like the original and yours !
l like a tiny bit of clangyness, just a touch.... reminds me of the old records and Tony...
Seems the thing hardest to capture or recreate to my ears and eyes are the old K bells.
The bells are not too hard to capture if you let loose and choose to create a wild shape. With these, I wanted to keep things a touch cleaner (even though I did design in some irregularities)
@@ReverieDrumCo aha.. makes more sense now. Thank you ; )
i like that 22”,the what i call icy stick sound followed by the dark wash is my fav charcteristics of some old k’s that i played. all these old k tributes or copies always have these dark wash,trash but they miss this icy stick sound. i wonder why.
It's definitely the age... "icy stick" is a great way to describe how the brittleness of really old bronze affects the sound.
I love how explosive and trashy the crash sound is. beautiful cymbals
Thanks!
Those sounded killer with the rivets!!! Loved the sounds of all of them.... As far as the 19.5" you didn't like, what if you reversed the edge, and made it similar to a swish knocker kind of cymbal? I mean what do you do with your "rejects" (which still sound better than a lot of others I've heard) You said it's thinner, so... Thanks for posting these!
I've worked that one too much to change it into something like a swish. If I worked it any further, I'd probably strengthen the upper section so it was a touch taller. I don't really have any rejects these days. The mantra "there's a drummer for every cymbal" somewhat applies.
@@ReverieDrumCo Yeah, I'm sure things get way too worked, and just lose it... Good stuff otherwise!! Thanks for posting these!!
The old K sounds a lot like the now discontinued Jack DeJohnette Signature Encore ride by Sabian. This isn’t a bad cymbal, it’s just very specific.😊
Intro fill!!
The 1757 sounds great
Tim. Every cymbal you made sounds better than the old k. I have some 2007 14 K con hi hats that are too heavy and chunky i think i’m going to send to ya. Hopefully you can make them more suited for my taste.
Wow! Thanks!
I'll be happy to work on those hats too. Cheers!
I like the tributes (particularly the 21 & 22) better than the original ¯\_(ツ)_/¯....warmer sound to my ears.
Thanks!
But why sizzles in - EVERYTHING... Geez... Enough already lol
haha yes it can get excessive
20" 1757g for me any ole day. Man, your ears must get fatigued. maybe not though. My old 19.5" K has a 6mm keyhole. Doesn't look like Tim's does. Correct?
Every day my ears get fatigued. I've learned not to trust myself too much if I've worked a full day hammering. I rarely ever finalize a cymbal after 4pm for that reason.
Tim's K has the bigger keyhole. Probably routed out at some point.
It's funny I actually think you were least favorite was my very favorite 😂
You’re not the first to say that!
21" seemed the most logical. But these are all too thin for survival. Nyc or on the road. Not sure what is happening in other cities. Thin hammered cymbals are great for broken time, modern pretty jazz gigs. But for a straight ahead drummer that is playing in many different rooms with different size groups the thin beautiful sounding cymbals don't cut it. Need to sacrifice some beauty for an all around-er. This is why you still see old k 22"s or A's, some 20", paiste 602"s, and for better or worse modern zildjian. I'm talking as main rides in nyc for working drummers. You don't see agops, or even Spizzichino. You see the new cymbal smith cymbals with modern guys that don't play a lot of straight ahead. I'm biased but would love to see a larger percentage of useful main rides that people like Louis Hayes, Billy Higgins, Ben Riley, Jimmy Cobb, Mel Lewis would play. They didn't play thin cymbals but had no trouble controlling a cymbal in a small room. Main reason is stick sound as a function. It's like it's a couple decibels higher or separate on a good old K. Old stamp k's can suffer from being too mellow fit back this claim. I gen mean later k's starting with intermediate stamp. There's obv more to this, but that's all now.
While I really agree with you in principle about most indie cymbals being too thin for the gigging drummer, I wouldn't say at all that these are too thin for survival. This project was about capturing the sound of Tim's old stamp K that (as far as I know) he's gigged with a bunch. He uses nylon tips which helps, but that original cymbal is by no means unusable on the gig. As for my recreations, I guess it's up for debate.
That being said, you're 100% right that beauty has to be sacrificed for a cymbal that you'll be able to depend on regardless of the gig. I've been making a bunch more cymbals that are heavier for that reason. While my personal preference for a 22" would be the 2400g range, there's nothing like a well made, balanced 22" at 2700g - 2800g. Another element that has to be factored in is how the handmade cymbal is balanced from a tension/stiffness standpoint. I've played many indie cymbals that are thin but also out of balance so they feel messy and muddy. I've also played ones that are even thinner, but sound way more focused and clear. Thanks for the comment and for watching!