12:51 well, the logo of Monster hunter 4 Ultimate show Gore magala on the left, and Shagaru magala on the right, or at least thats what i thought from the beginning and what i had heard in other videos
A great way to bring back water monsters without underwater combat would be boat fights. Similar to Jhen Morah, but in actual water. That could make it possible to bring monsters like Ceadeus or Miralis back.
Imagine hunting Lagiacrus on a ship with a whaling harpoon. Tire out the monster by having it drag the boat around until it's forced to surface and fight the hunters onboard.
idk, I think that would be cool for a cinematic fight, but they can only do that once or twice with different monsters and it would always be a gimmick fight with cannons. Can't imagine a Lagiacrus jumping on a cartoony, comedic large boat and do land combat there lmao. Would, in the end, be a bit of a weird workaround
I think underwatercombat should be somewhat clunky or slow since your out of your element. Instead I would prefer if the Monster has times that force it on land were you have the advantage, because the Monster gets slower or trips easier. That you could keep the original Zug of war between you and the monster shifting in acordens to the turf.
Tri was my first MH and damn it was incredible ,underwater its absolutly not hard just need to use the free roam to master it and take time to understand how to swim properly.There are even some monster like plesioth who was create before tri who are easier to deal in the water than on land once you learned how to move .if people want monster like Lagiacrus Ect...Return there need to have water otherwise these monster are a joke to deal with.Lagiacrus from Generation since its out of water should be a Beginner monster because how nerfed it was ...They gived new attacks to balance the lack of mobility out of water but its not enough these monster has become complete garbage giving you good weapon with no effort.
With a couple exceptions, that's exactly how it worked. All swimming monsters except for Ceadeus and Abyssal would get on land when tired and/or weak, and both Gobul and Plesioth could be fished out of the water with frogs. That being said, I think they could have played with the water mechanics more. Other ways to get monsters out of the water would allow players who still don't like it to tolerate it better, and Olympic Swimmer was the only armor skill associated with the water system at all. I think the game would have benefitted greatly from more ways to prepare for an underwater hunt ahead of time.
Can't really say I agree with the proposed changes for underwater combat. Underwater combat should feel like you are at a disadvantage, but more than anything else, it was those disadvantages that players didn't like. Even if it wasn't your intention, your proposal sounded like it was just removing a bunch of those disadvantages. So here's my proposal: more elements of preparation to alleviate those disadvantages. This can be more items and armor skills specifically included to make the player stronger underwater, and I think that World's mantles are particularly well suited for this. One important note is that the underwater armor skills, mantle-esque tools, or something else entirely should be kept separate from whatever the player has access to on land. If all of these buffs have an opportunity cost that makes the player have to choose to forego options on land, then players will either choose not to use them or resent the underwater for making them choose. Of course, to justify having water buffs with no opportunity cost, water should be even more omnipresent than it was in Tri, but it would be strange to force underwater combat into too much of the game, so I propose that these buffs are usable in waist-high water and have that fill in the remainder.
A possible way would be to implement underwater dashed and dodges to not only use stamina but also oxygen ! That way the player would have to manage two precious ressources (because, let’s get it straight, oxygen in mh3 and mh3u are toooooo easy to deal with, you can go for almost an entire hunt without any oxygen managing problem) What do think about that idea ?
I'd rework oxygen so that any action increases the drain rate when performing that action. O2 is 100 by default. Being underwater drains O2 by a fixed amount. 0.1 O2 per second. Swimming would be 0.3/sec "Sprint" swimming would be 0.5/sec. And dodging and attacking would be 1/sec. This means you can constantly attack for only 1 minute and 40 seconds while underwater. I'd also move the O2 meter to be parallel and right underneath the stamina meter for better UI. Running out of O2 wouldn't make your hunter faint immediately. Instead, HP will slowly drain as if poisoned, and the game forces them to surface to breathe again and be completely vulnerable to attack during the entirety of the animation.
I would LOVE Underwater Combat to return. I've never played it but I think the Team can pull it off great now with their increased experience and skills. I think they can modify the Clutch Claw to allow us to attach to walls and rocks or the seabed which would then allow us to zip towards it thereby giving us a good amount of mobility Underwater
I've been marathoning through all of your content, the Isle-Monster Hunter. I love hearing people's thoughts on game design, please keep up the good work!
Nah underwater was great, those that complain didn't bother to learn the new styles and aproach of the combat mostly relying in evasion windows, instead of a preventive style.
It depends on what weapon you main. If your a Lance or Dual Blades main you probably like Underwater Combat, but if you a Sword and Shield main you probably won't like it that much.
Underwater combat is something we can't really afford to never bring back if we want to continue building the lore and ecology of this world and have more new monsters, it has huge potential but I have 2 big questions, how would mounting work underwater? And how would the insect glaive work underwater?
I have a feeling mounting would kinda be akin to the clutch claw, where instead of dropping your opponent to the floor you ram them into objects until they're in a downed state As for insect glaive maybe you can like give it extreme forward mobility with the "vault" idrk
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey yeah I've heard that about the insect glaive before I assume the kinsect would function exactly like on lad but swimming, which would be weird looking
@stormerjc9493 I mean if you give it a swimming animation set but keep it statistically the same it'd be fine. Arthropods have whacky as fuck swim methods
Playing 3U now and I absolutely love the under water combat. Under water combat must return!!! With a few improved dodging mechanics and gap closing would be nice.
I'm 3 minutes in at the moment (I'll finish the video, I promise), but I had to stop and say that underwater combat is clunky by design. As I know has been talked about on this channel before, the older games had a stronger emphasis on immersive gameplay elements. Humans don't swim as well as they move on land. Almost every monster that you could hunt underwater also spent a significant amount of the hunt on land, and the clunkiness of underwater combat was a deliberate and realistic design choice intended to reinforce the idea that going underwater to hunt these monsters meant fighting them on their own turf. You're supposed to dread going underwater during the hunt, and you're supposed to be relieved and invigorated when the monster gets back on land, and this dichotomy adds a great deal of depth to 3 and 3U's hunts.
-Hi there ! First of all, I like your video and appreciate the effort you put into highlighting this mechanic and how it could be enhanced. I was gonna talk about my personal thoughts on how that could happen in the first 5 minutes but then thought I'd hear all of what you had to say first to avoid mentioning things you spoke of already. I honestly hope the devs will somehow see this message and give it a thought, as I remember mentioning that I wanted alatreon to be an addition to MHWI back in the days, as I believed he was such a unique multi-elemental elder dragon... only to realize they actually added him later on. - As you said, I doubt wilds will have underwater combat as the emphasis was put in the desert vibe and there was not even an ounce of water on sight so... And I'm almost certain they won't change it for the Wilds "ultimate" that will spawn afterwards, as they prefer to remain within the same gameplay mechanic they used for the prototype title in that Gen. Maybe next title ? *Shrug* - I have been through the good and the bad of underwater combat since Tri was my first title. I believe underwater combat should be backed up with some gimmicks similar to the ones they added in world and rise, but exclusive to underwater. The clutch claw and wirebug might've been fun but they should have remained optional tricks since the core fight mechanics were already perfectly functional as they were and the most fancy manoeuver should have remained the I-frame dodge. - Here are the ways I think would benefit hunters in the game, most of these will be gimmicky and I'm aware of it, but HEAR ME OUT lol. 1- Introducing a palamute type of creature which could be used underwater, as well as on land (same as the wilds palamute who can fly, walk and stride) or perhaps relying on the ambiant fauna like in world. This will mostly be used as a mean of transport rather than for fights. 2- some tool like the wystones or the mantles, which would be temporarily available and would greatly enhance the user's mobility and abilities underwater. It could be different iterations of the same type of item, each granting specific bonuses. One for moving faster overall, another for making your evades send you even further or turning into double evades that send you farther. It could be some sort of underwater potions, or hunter arts as well. 3- some tool like the clutch claw or the wire bug, which would be permanently available instead, but again completely under water. For this one I thought maybe adding some extra parts to the armor itself just like the clutch claw and the fireflies became part of the armor design in world. So as an exemple, maybe add a water jetpack to the back or propulsors on the limbs or anything like that. It could also not be available right away but instead it could be used like a 7th part of your set, just like when the talismans became a thing. And you'd be able to upgrade it as you progress through the game, altering its stats to suit your needs. A cool concept I just thought of would be that this tool's appearance would alter the appearance of your armor as well, similar to how adding or removing parts to your bowgun would give it a longer barrel, a shield, etc... - Conclusion : these concepts should be exclusive to underwater, to further put an emphasis on underwater combat to make it more fun, rather than implementing it to the game as a whole, and making it seem clunkier the moment you step foot in water and realize it's not as efficient as it was on land 5 mins ago before that lagiacrus decided to go take a bath. Overall, having such a cool set of mechanics reserved for underwater would make players more excited to try it out and venture more often into the aquatic areas of the map. Make it cool, make it rewarding. - As a final note, bring back underwater elder dragons. Ceadeus and Dire miralis are a must. Make the final monster of the series an underwater monster, they say Alatreons spend a period of their life in the ocean depths, GIVE IT A TRY ? ALATREON UNDERWATER ANYONE ? Also a really cool addition would be a sea Mohran, so instead of fighting on sand, you fight it in the sea. The first part would be a fight on the ship, but the second part would require you to dive underwater to finish it off after you've injured it enough or exhausted it to the point where it can't keep swimming in a straight line and has to face you. - That was all. I hope anyone who's read this far appreciates the ideas I had in mind. Maybe by some miraculous chance someone from Capcom will read this and go bonkers on the dev team to make it a real thing. I don't care, take my ideas and make money off of it, I just want the series to keep getting better. :)
Never played Tri, but I feel like Wilds will be the best embodiement of what the team always wanted to do with MH. I doubt this would be open world, and it is unlikely underwater combat will come back. Though we will have an amazing world building, and a game focused around the feeling of being part of the MH world, more than ever!
Honestly I always like the underwater combat. I feel like it felt janky is because you would be playing it on a 3DS. With MH on main line consoles, I feel like it would work pretty well.
I’ve got to disagree with you on that one. For starters, monster hunter is known for having large variety of ecosystems in each game, this way they will have a larger roster of monsters to choose from. Also, underwater combat was annoying because of tech limitations, and can be improved on greatly with a couple of changes.
@@Soul_evacuated_Ian Can you elaborate on this? I keep seeing people say "tech limitations" is what ruined underwater combat but I never see anyone giving examples
@@jackstack2136 The lack of smooth and fast movement would be what they are pointing towards. Older monster hunter movement was already a bit clanky and funky, but the combination of the underwater camera and different movement made it almost impossible to dodge well.
@@Soul_evacuated_Ianbiggest issue is camera controls. Prior to World, the camera was locked to a certain speed, and X and Y axis controls didn't like to be operated simultaneously. 2nd is weapon movesets. Around 40% of weapon movesets were removed while underwater for no good reason.
![Cody Johnson - I'm Gonna Love You (with Carrie Underwood) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yy9PuYMU29g/mqdefault.jpg)
12:51 well, the logo of Monster hunter 4 Ultimate show Gore magala on the left, and Shagaru magala on the right, or at least thats what i thought from the beginning and what i had heard in other videos
A great way to bring back water monsters without underwater combat would be boat fights. Similar to Jhen Morah, but in actual water. That could make it possible to bring monsters like Ceadeus or Miralis back.
Imagine hunting Lagiacrus on a ship with a whaling harpoon. Tire out the monster by having it drag the boat around until it's forced to surface and fight the hunters onboard.
Or they could use some kind of submarine like the one from the Argosy from mh rise.
Or how about actually bring it back as how it was in 3u and polished up instead of trying to replace it with a 'better" mechanic
idk, I think that would be cool for a cinematic fight, but they can only do that once or twice with different monsters and it would always be a gimmick fight with cannons. Can't imagine a Lagiacrus jumping on a cartoony, comedic large boat and do land combat there lmao. Would, in the end, be a bit of a weird workaround
I think underwatercombat should be somewhat clunky or slow since your out of your element. Instead I would prefer if the Monster has times that force it on land were you have the advantage, because the Monster gets slower or trips easier. That you could keep the original Zug of war between you and the monster shifting in acordens to the turf.
Tri was my first MH and damn it was incredible ,underwater its absolutly not hard just need to use the free roam to master it and take time to understand how to swim properly.There are even some monster like plesioth who was create before tri who are easier to deal in the water than on land once you learned how to move .if people want monster like Lagiacrus Ect...Return there need to have water otherwise these monster are a joke to deal with.Lagiacrus from Generation since its out of water should be a Beginner monster because how nerfed it was ...They gived new attacks to balance the lack of mobility out of water but its not enough these monster has become complete garbage giving you good weapon with no effort.
With a couple exceptions, that's exactly how it worked. All swimming monsters except for Ceadeus and Abyssal would get on land when tired and/or weak, and both Gobul and Plesioth could be fished out of the water with frogs.
That being said, I think they could have played with the water mechanics more. Other ways to get monsters out of the water would allow players who still don't like it to tolerate it better, and Olympic Swimmer was the only armor skill associated with the water system at all. I think the game would have benefitted greatly from more ways to prepare for an underwater hunt ahead of time.
I never experienced underwater combat so would he really cool and like you said we can have more monster types
Can't really say I agree with the proposed changes for underwater combat. Underwater combat should feel like you are at a disadvantage, but more than anything else, it was those disadvantages that players didn't like. Even if it wasn't your intention, your proposal sounded like it was just removing a bunch of those disadvantages.
So here's my proposal: more elements of preparation to alleviate those disadvantages. This can be more items and armor skills specifically included to make the player stronger underwater, and I think that World's mantles are particularly well suited for this. One important note is that the underwater armor skills, mantle-esque tools, or something else entirely should be kept separate from whatever the player has access to on land. If all of these buffs have an opportunity cost that makes the player have to choose to forego options on land, then players will either choose not to use them or resent the underwater for making them choose. Of course, to justify having water buffs with no opportunity cost, water should be even more omnipresent than it was in Tri, but it would be strange to force underwater combat into too much of the game, so I propose that these buffs are usable in waist-high water and have that fill in the remainder.
A possible way would be to implement underwater dashed and dodges to not only use stamina but also oxygen !
That way the player would have to manage two precious ressources (because, let’s get it straight, oxygen in mh3 and mh3u are toooooo easy to deal with, you can go for almost an entire hunt without any oxygen managing problem)
What do think about that idea ?
I'd rework oxygen so that any action increases the drain rate when performing that action.
O2 is 100 by default.
Being underwater drains O2 by a fixed amount. 0.1 O2 per second.
Swimming would be 0.3/sec "Sprint" swimming would be 0.5/sec.
And dodging and attacking would be 1/sec. This means you can constantly attack for only 1 minute and 40 seconds while underwater.
I'd also move the O2 meter to be parallel and right underneath the stamina meter for better UI.
Running out of O2 wouldn't make your hunter faint immediately.
Instead, HP will slowly drain as if poisoned, and the game forces them to surface to breathe again and be completely vulnerable to attack during the entirety of the animation.
They could also add a mechanic similar to Silkbind attacks thats attached to the Oxygen bar, this would also add another level of Oxygen management.
I would LOVE Underwater Combat to return. I've never played it but I think the Team can pull it off great now with their increased experience and skills.
I think they can modify the Clutch Claw to allow us to attach to walls and rocks or the seabed which would then allow us to zip towards it thereby giving us a good amount of mobility Underwater
I've been marathoning through all of your content, the Isle-Monster Hunter. I love hearing people's thoughts on game design, please keep up the good work!
Nah underwater was great, those that complain didn't bother to learn the new styles and aproach of the combat mostly relying in evasion windows, instead of a preventive style.
It depends on what weapon you main. If your a Lance or Dual Blades main you probably like Underwater Combat, but if you a Sword and Shield main you probably won't like it that much.
Underwater combat is something we can't really afford to never bring back if we want to continue building the lore and ecology of this world and have more new monsters, it has huge potential but I have 2 big questions, how would mounting work underwater? And how would the insect glaive work underwater?
I have a feeling mounting would kinda be akin to the clutch claw, where instead of dropping your opponent to the floor you ram them into objects until they're in a downed state
As for insect glaive maybe you can like give it extreme forward mobility with the "vault" idrk
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey yeah I've heard that about the insect glaive before I assume the kinsect would function exactly like on lad but swimming, which would be weird looking
@stormerjc9493 I mean if you give it a swimming animation set but keep it statistically the same it'd be fine. Arthropods have whacky as fuck swim methods
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey yeah your totally right on that, idk why I didn't think if that lol I just had a very goofy visual in my head for it
PErsonally I do hold out hope for underwater combat, but I won't be disappointed when it doesn't return
Pretty clear it won’t be in the initial release but once the ground work is laid I’m really hoping it pops up in the expansion!
unpopular opinion: the controls underwater was clunky because poor programming AND the limiting Wii/U!
Playing 3U now and I absolutely love the under water combat. Under water combat must return!!! With a few improved dodging mechanics and gap closing would be nice.
Make the chicken that the hunter ride swim
How does that help with Underwater combats problems?
I'm 3 minutes in at the moment (I'll finish the video, I promise), but I had to stop and say that underwater combat is clunky by design. As I know has been talked about on this channel before, the older games had a stronger emphasis on immersive gameplay elements. Humans don't swim as well as they move on land. Almost every monster that you could hunt underwater also spent a significant amount of the hunt on land, and the clunkiness of underwater combat was a deliberate and realistic design choice intended to reinforce the idea that going underwater to hunt these monsters meant fighting them on their own turf. You're supposed to dread going underwater during the hunt, and you're supposed to be relieved and invigorated when the monster gets back on land, and this dichotomy adds a great deal of depth to 3 and 3U's hunts.
I think the best option would be to incorporate swimming as an evasive or luring option
No combat
Oh and if they don’t have time to implement it at release they can always add it in with dlc.
Imagine using Ig underwater like a spear
-Hi there ! First of all, I like your video and appreciate the effort you put into highlighting this mechanic and how it could be enhanced. I was gonna talk about my personal thoughts on how that could happen in the first 5 minutes but then thought I'd hear all of what you had to say first to avoid mentioning things you spoke of already. I honestly hope the devs will somehow see this message and give it a thought, as I remember mentioning that I wanted alatreon to be an addition to MHWI back in the days, as I believed he was such a unique multi-elemental elder dragon... only to realize they actually added him later on.
- As you said, I doubt wilds will have underwater combat as the emphasis was put in the desert vibe and there was not even an ounce of water on sight so... And I'm almost certain they won't change it for the Wilds "ultimate" that will spawn afterwards, as they prefer to remain within the same gameplay mechanic they used for the prototype title in that Gen. Maybe next title ? *Shrug*
- I have been through the good and the bad of underwater combat since Tri was my first title. I believe underwater combat should be backed up with some gimmicks similar to the ones they added in world and rise, but exclusive to underwater. The clutch claw and wirebug might've been fun but they should have remained optional tricks since the core fight mechanics were already perfectly functional as they were and the most fancy manoeuver should have remained the I-frame dodge.
- Here are the ways I think would benefit hunters in the game, most of these will be gimmicky and I'm aware of it, but HEAR ME OUT lol.
1- Introducing a palamute type of creature which could be used underwater, as well as on land (same as the wilds palamute who can fly, walk and stride) or perhaps relying on the ambiant fauna like in world. This will mostly be used as a mean of transport rather than for fights.
2- some tool like the wystones or the mantles, which would be temporarily available and would greatly enhance the user's mobility and abilities underwater. It could be different iterations of the same type of item, each granting specific bonuses. One for moving faster overall, another for making your evades send you even further or turning into double evades that send you farther. It could be some sort of underwater potions, or hunter arts as well.
3- some tool like the clutch claw or the wire bug, which would be permanently available instead, but again completely under water. For this one I thought maybe adding some extra parts to the armor itself just like the clutch claw and the fireflies became part of the armor design in world. So as an exemple, maybe add a water jetpack to the back or propulsors on the limbs or anything like that. It could also not be available right away but instead it could be used like a 7th part of your set, just like when the talismans became a thing. And you'd be able to upgrade it as you progress through the game, altering its stats to suit your needs. A cool concept I just thought of would be that this tool's appearance would alter the appearance of your armor as well, similar to how adding or removing parts to your bowgun would give it a longer barrel, a shield, etc...
- Conclusion : these concepts should be exclusive to underwater, to further put an emphasis on underwater combat to make it more fun, rather than implementing it to the game as a whole, and making it seem clunkier the moment you step foot in water and realize it's not as efficient as it was on land 5 mins ago before that lagiacrus decided to go take a bath. Overall, having such a cool set of mechanics reserved for underwater would make players more excited to try it out and venture more often into the aquatic areas of the map. Make it cool, make it rewarding.
- As a final note, bring back underwater elder dragons. Ceadeus and Dire miralis are a must. Make the final monster of the series an underwater monster, they say Alatreons spend a period of their life in the ocean depths, GIVE IT A TRY ? ALATREON UNDERWATER ANYONE ? Also a really cool addition would be a sea Mohran, so instead of fighting on sand, you fight it in the sea. The first part would be a fight on the ship, but the second part would require you to dive underwater to finish it off after you've injured it enough or exhausted it to the point where it can't keep swimming in a straight line and has to face you.
- That was all. I hope anyone who's read this far appreciates the ideas I had in mind. Maybe by some miraculous chance someone from Capcom will read this and go bonkers on the dev team to make it a real thing. I don't care, take my ideas and make money off of it, I just want the series to keep getting better. :)
Never played Tri, but I feel like Wilds will be the best embodiement of what the team always wanted to do with MH. I doubt this would be open world, and it is unlikely underwater combat will come back. Though we will have an amazing world building, and a game focused around the feeling of being part of the MH world, more than ever!
5:40 No it didn't. It's like underwater combat except you're forced to use it for every monster instead of like 8 out of 52. It's a terrible system
Well. It would work well =3.
Bring back Laggi
Honestly I always like the underwater combat. I feel like it felt janky is because you would be playing it on a 3DS. With MH on main line consoles, I feel like it would work pretty well.
Hopefully it won't, underwater combat was annoying and doesnt make sense in a dry enviorment
I’ve got to disagree with you on that one. For starters, monster hunter is known for having large variety of ecosystems in each game, this way they will have a larger roster of monsters to choose from. Also, underwater combat was annoying because of tech limitations, and can be improved on greatly with a couple of changes.
Plesioth literally lives in deserts
@@Soul_evacuated_Ian Can you elaborate on this? I keep seeing people say "tech limitations" is what ruined underwater combat but I never see anyone giving examples
@@jackstack2136 The lack of smooth and fast movement would be what they are pointing towards. Older monster hunter movement was already a bit clanky and funky, but the combination of the underwater camera and different movement made it almost impossible to dodge well.
@@Soul_evacuated_Ianbiggest issue is camera controls.
Prior to World, the camera was locked to a certain speed, and X and Y axis controls didn't like to be operated simultaneously.
2nd is weapon movesets. Around 40% of weapon movesets were removed while underwater for no good reason.
no please dont