I was an atheist for 28 years and I used to believe the same thing that morality was relative not objective. Then I had children and slowly the Lord opened my eyes until June of this year when I had a super natural experience with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Now that Lord Jesus has opened my eyes, I now see that morality is in fact objective and it is given to us by God. Your conscience is God's way of showing you, in your heart and mind what is evil and what is good.
That is the 1st time that I have seen anyone not willing to shake hands. I sense a lot of anger in him. There's no reason why people who disagree cannot shake hands and walk away friendly.
Not surprising. We live in a society where shaking hands is scary now. I was always raised to shake a man’s hand out of respect NO MATTER the argument or debate or views. Shake hands and walk away. Even in sports. You can beat each other down but always shake hands after.
Notice how it's ALWAYS anger when it comes to God? They get mad because they know inside that there are consequences to their actions and they hate it. They want to do whatever they want with no repercussions. That''s why you see a lot of these not even debate or even talk to you. Cliff is a better man than me. I say F this guy and anyone else like him.
I just watched the first 4 mins ... it's mindblowing for me that folks would say " It's okay to harm people because everything is relative" just to avoid saying that God exists.
@@mirandahotspring4019 tell me how it’s a straw man??? it’s funny how you’re just telling him it’s all fallacy, but you’re not giving any insight on why it isn’t so in your comment it’s invalid and you’re an idiot.
@@mirandahotspring4019you gonna defend someone who won’t shake a hand. That’s not being a man. But in terms of what you were specifically complaining about… I don’t see the straw man’s? I see the points being made. If you’re an atheist that means relativity morally is all over the place.
Lol God isn’t real, it’s a fictional mythology character about an evil sorcerer, who talks to snakes & turtles, summons giant insect hordes to attack the townspeople’s crops, casts evil spirits who feast on the souls of the 1st born, and has an undead zombie apprentice who rose from the grave & rides a magical donkey into town to declare his glory😂
@@LordOfThePancakes You probably believe in the big bang, which means you believe in many more miracles than I do. You believe something came from nothing. That is just insane, you need some meds.
By him not wanting to shake Cliffs hand, shows he hates Cliff based on his beliefs. But would he want someone else to hate him for his? No, he wouldn't. You can't explain logic to a person like that. Because they refuse to accept it.
Lol God isn’t real, it’s a fictional mythology character about an evil sorcerer, who talks to snakes & turtles, summons giant insect hordes to attack the townspeople’s crops, casts evil spirits who feast on the souls of the 1st born, and has an undead zombie apprentice who rose from the grave & rides a magical donkey into town to declare his glory😂
@LordOfThePancakes one day you will stand before Jesus and face his judgement. And he will tell you to depart from him because he does not know you. And you will be cast into eternal death instead of life. You still have the opportunity to get to know him and surrender your heart to him. He made you. Gave you life. You owe everything to him. Just because you don't believe in him doesn't make him not real. The time will come when you will beg him for another chance to know him and it will be to late. Don't waste your opportunity you have now. Don't have that regret to face later. Jesus loves you and he wants to know you. He went through unimaginable pain and suffering for you. He doesn't want you to throw away what he did for you. No one on this earth could ever love you like he does. And you have a chance to have that love for eternity. Please don't throw it all away.
there's something so genuinely disturbing about the word choice of "planting the seed". The idea of sowing an idea into the back of someone's mind so they eventually think the way you want them to is very akin to indoctrination and is largely the reason a lot of religious practices give me such a bad taste in my mouth (keyword most btw, not all).
@@spookytimejunctionI think that if you consider it from a different perspective, you might find it rather comforting. Planting the seed is simply an act of preparation. If there is no God, then on the basis of what they’ve said, no one will water it. However, if the God being referred to is real, he can tend to that seed that was planted to open someone’s mind to his existence and potential eternal salvation. If he isn’t real, no harm done, no watering, not much of anything really- but if he is, it is a chance for him to work in powerful ways. I personally believe, but I think this sort of perspective can calm the minds of even those who do not
@spookytimejunction Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. Then you better not look up marketing science, it's all about using human psychology to get you to buy whatever they want you to. Not to mention social media using our own psychology to get us addicted to thier apps. The world is filthy and corrupt. Jesus is pure, trust worthy and loving. To each their own I guess 🤷
Yes and morality is subjective not objective What is or is not immoral has changed through the years as human beings have gotten more civilized The problem of morality being subjective doesn't change if God exists, it just shifts whose opinion on morality you're talking about
@@Azyo62 Not so. I've listened to a lot of Cliffes ranting. He preaches a false gospel. He is also psychotic and combative and lives for punching down at youngsters. He is not calm and reasonable like preachers are supposed to be. He also preaches work salvation instead of faith. He even blasphemes the Spirit by saying that babies can't be baptized. Good luck.
Ive always loved the, "oh you believe that humans have value, and you beliece its not ok to do things that harm others, so im not gonna shake your hand.'
Christian here- but props to the girl at the end who actually LISTENED to them talk instead of just talking through them. And also de-escalating the situation.
LOL that was the best part imo. Is like 1500 years ago, ppl didnt know quantum, gravity law or thermodinamics, or bacteria, but they were there and they were true... Since when the masses are smart?
The point that Stewart and Cliffe should have hit home with the student is to say that because morality is all relative, if you try to enforce morality on another person, then logically you are violating moral relativism because you are automatically assuming that your morals are superior to theirs. That's not more relativism. That's moral objectivism. Relativism is where you treat all moral viewpoints as equally valid, and therefore no laws should be enforced. But the reason why we have laws in the first place is because if morality can be totally subjectivized or relativized then you'll end up with anarchy.
@vladtheemailer3223 how about it instead you present a rebuttal? If moral relativism is defined as the view that all moral view points are equally valid, what do you think the necessary logical entailment is that follows from that? That courts of law should still be implemented? On what grounds should courts of law still be enforced if morality is relative?
@@josephthomasmusic "On what grounds should courts of law still be enforced if morality is relative?" Power and violence. Morality doesn't exist either. Morality is just fear of other people.
@@Jake-mv7yothen you've just proven that power and violence are not bad things. They're just things that happen and we should just accept them. But the minute that you implement courts of law and enforcement of certain values over others, you're automatically violating your own claim that morality doesn't exist. Do you see where you just refuted your own argument? This is precisely why subjective moral reasoning and "morality doesn't exist" are poor positions to maintain, because they are systemically contradictory.
Good afternoon on this Magnificent Monday; Sacramento's weather For today is 63° ⛅ Today's Daily Scriptures are: ~ 1 John 2:15,16 15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Bonus Scriptures: ~1 John 2:1-14;17-29 -All Glory goes to the Most High, The Great "I Am" Yahweh, Our Rock, The Alpha & Omega. - God Bless you My Friend & family. Amen
The best argument against a relativist is "I disagree, thus you're wrong". They're literally unable to come out of that without contradicting themselves.
Metaethical relativism is a position about the truth of first-order moral claims. It is not a position about whether the truth of all claims is relative.
@@lanceindependent just more word games. It muddies the water to make it seem deep, but really you are just purposely misunderstanding simple logical inferences in order to substitute in something that you can agree with, and without having any of your suppositions challenged.
@@itaxevasixn8808 It's hilarious when some rando on the internet claims something about another person they have literally zero knowledge of, and does so for no reason but to be insulting. LOL The reference is from the Bible, of course. What makes you think this was "not understood"? The Bible is still required to provide verifiable evidence. Run along, sport. Bother someone else.
Man ppl who debate or put up with conversations like the blond headed dude who cnt fathom to be wrong at something is hard for them to understand just shows how humble cliff n stuart are n filled with the holy spirit
I used to be an atheist. I was a believer and I slid off. More than not finding an explanation for reality, what led me down that path was the ability to define anything in reality. Was living all the freedom and pleasure, defining anything by my liking only to feel exhausted of doing everything without a purpose. Atheism, despite the belief of the non-existence of a God, made me hunger for meaning. There was no inherent value, objective truth, absolute perfection, moral law and principles. Indeed, meaningless does not come from being weary of pain, it comes from being weary of pleasure. Christ, only Him, only Jesus, can fill that void, that dark abyss, that longing for meaning and purpose, that guidance. He is the only one that actually cares. Give your life to Him. And watch how he can take your life and turn it around. He is worth every sacrifice because He loved me first.
For me, the 'Jesus' story, and my sincere attempt to find 'the Jesus god entity' was far more empty, void, dark abyssal, meaningless, and purposeless. Today, I live my life in honesty, no longer trying to be what others expected of me.
I love Cliffe and Stuart, however I feel like there could have been a better response. This guy needed someone to better explain the fault in his thinking by his definition of Objective vs subjective vs relative. Even I get confused sometimes with the difference.
The boy was debating practice while cliff was debating principle. Practice vs principle is always the issue. Just because someone practices some form of relative belief, does not make it correct. The earth is round, yet some say it's flat... the fact of the matter is, while one of those is a subjective opinion, the other is objectively true. This is the best way to explain morality to people.
If someone is at a university and doesn’t understand Objective vs subjective vs relative, then I really don’t know how you could teach them anything. Basic English is the reason he can’t grasp morality? A terrifying thought, to be sure.
@@eking3469 "It's the same that you failed to understand this." This sentence is poorly constructed, idk if you typo'd or just are ESL (sentence structure in English is the opposite of most other languages) but I should clarify my point is: If someone is at University, and is trying to grasp complex ideas, they should already understand basic meanings of words. I would never assume anyone who finished high school to not understand these terms. If you think that is a common occurrence, I shudder to think what the future holds - where the 'brightest minds' don't have a firm grasp of their mother tongue.
@ I don’t think you understand what I said. Individuals don’t survive on their own. They only survive in societies for the large part. Thus a society full of people who are selfless will survive longer and pass on those traits to more offspring than a society of selfish people. Does that make more sense? If the society has fewer people willing to sacrifice their lives, paradoxically that means LESS people survive, not more.
I have a biblical worldview, saw the video from it's start to finish (but not the actual debate from start to finish). Cliff does a great job explaining the faith and witnessing in previous videos I've watched. This is a tough video to watch for me because it feels like there's a touch of gentleness missing in this conversation which could have created a bit of hesitancy, stumbling block or a mindset of "digging their heels in" for this student actually being won over. I love Cliff, appreciate his stern demeanor and boldness, but hope that this conversation was followed up with a gentle encounter once emotions simmered down. Great argument, think it was just clouded by a bit of understandable emotion. Grace and peace to both
The young man is full of pride and arrogance. He probably thought Cliff has a script that he goes by when answering questions. This is what he should have learned , he really doesn’t know what relative morality is verses objective morality.
I don't think the object here is trying to win the young man over. The object is to debate and in essence to argue him into circles. This conversation will work on him for years. God will use it. Not everything always needs to be so gentle. Sometimes you need a big force. This conversation is perfect for this kids intellect and age right now. These are men calling him into maturity and into mature reasoning.
9:20, the guy has a point there. Until we judge every deed in the perspective of pursuing self realisation, everything, every single thing is a kick in the dark, a bad thing. Now it moves up and down the spectrum but still, it's within a material designation. Not transcendental.
The key word missing is "absolute moral values", better than objective moral values. The kid missed that there were NO SPACE at yhr beginning, NO TIME. They keep quoting science wrong
No one in the science community says "came from nothing". This is a Strawman fallacy from apologists attempting to make others "appear foolish", but have only managed to fool themselves and anyone else who thinks it is factual.
The only people saying that anything comes from nothing is theists who don't understand what other people believe. The information is easily accessible, go educate yourself....
@Woke_Invaders Theyll say I dont know and then say but we know it is not God 💀 they also dont realize that you dont have to put the same stipulations on matter as you do with God who is spirit. God is outside of the confines of space time and matter. So asking "where did God come from" doesnt even have to apply. God is eternal
@@Woke_Invaders Don't listen to FollowJesus777-KING. That isn't what "they'll say". No one knows how the universe is as it is. It is the accepted Theory that it started in an expansion, but what was before that point in time is an unknown.
At the 17 minute mark, you can see this kid recording this on his phone and every time Cliffe says "baloney" the kid recording his the biggest smile on his face.
Respect to the guy for debating and explaining his perspective but it was clear to see a lot of his points were difficult to understand because he was trying to avoid certain explanations that would have destroyed his own argument
Cliffe can't talk to people like this. Like an irate customer who just wants to argue and not fix the issue - just go around in circles because they refuse to take in what others say. Anyone who agrees with how the other guy behaved needs to be prayed for.
I agree. Apologists like Cliffe are a lost cause. Even if they could actually listen to the opposing view, they would never change their mind because their whole life is built on being an apologist.
@somerandom3247 it's not about changing minds, it's about listening and knowing you won't agree. Cliffe isn't forcing his belief or views on someone, he's explaining where he stands and why he stands there - it's those that try to debate him that cannot further back up their explanation so decide to go in circles like this guy.
@@BlahBlahBlah-rf2so // "happy for you to point out the hypocrisy" // Certainly dear let me do so by asking a question, is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept
Its easy, subjectivly choose what the goal of moral right and moral wrong is, then one can objectivly judge, given their information at hand, what is right and wrong
I'm a Christian and Cliffe and Stuart are 100% right but they were very obviously overly aggressive in this debate from the get go. Wish they showed more of Jesus' love and told him about the gospel.
Cliffe are debating an athiest who doesn't believe in God. Cliffe did the right thing to put some seed in his mind without mentioning the Bible but bringing upt the idea that before the Beginning there was a Creator who creates creation. Creations is not by Accident. It does not create order, Accident creates chaos.
Cliffe doesn't come off as a likeable person, he just likes to debate. He could be debating vacuum cleaners. I wouldn't be surprised to even find out that he's not a Christian but he knows how to argue for the existence of the biblical God. The same way the devil "knew" God was real.
9:23 watch this black man just dip after the blonde kid said that society agreed that slavery was generally a good thing--literally left the whole circle and went on with his day
I actually love this kids argument and learned a lot from his questions. We need to use this as a learning moment for everyone listening not a moment to hate on a single person questioning the most important thing in his life.
The kid is just focusing on society. Sometimes we just block ourselves at the point where we don't want to see the truth. To have any kind of debate we have to be open minded and respect others opinions. Good debate 🎉❤
An atheist believes in the impossible. Chance, luck, and randomness = LIFE! What a coincidence! It actually takes MORE faith to believe in atheism then God.
Definitely not. The video in question is selectively chosen by smug apologists as propaganda to falsely suggest that atheists lack strong arguments. However, if you watch serious debates between Cliffe and experienced atheists, you'll find that his arguments are quickly dismantled.
His argument is, because bad things occur on different scales at different times, God cannot exist. He is using the scale of ultimate ‘bad’ to determine nothing good can exist. He’s got half of it down, he just needs to assign a three-letter “S” word to the state, then he will understand humanity & our relationship with God.
@@DrVarner you're going to expect that from a random student, but you don't expect Cliff to open a philosophy book once in a while so he can't stop making all of these nonsense claims?
@ I expect anyone who is willing to publicly enter an open dialogue to at a minimum be familiar with the basic arguments. As for Cliffe, he is well educated and a graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. I can assure you he has had the philosophy education and read numerous academic text on the subject and its various positions.
@DrVarner I don't think his theological knowledge is a problem, but he has absolutely no business talking philosophy beyond that. An easy example from the video - a error he's continued to make for years - is the claim that without god, we just matter and energy. That, like most of the things he claims are entailments of atheism, just doesn't follow.
@ Theology and Philosophy are two sides of the same coin. Theologian/Philosophers have been tackling this topic for a long time. In fact, as a teacher of Ethics, Philosophy, and Theology, I can assure you he is well with in the realm of Philosophy. It is called the Moral Argument and it is in fact an argument for the existence of God using reason, laws of logic, and established philosophy. You don’t have to be convinced by it and you can certainly claim Cliffe could present it more clearly (though given the situation and location he does quite well). Incidentally, if we are the product of chance mutation over time, how would you establish objective morality?
After a certain stage, we often continue debating to protect our ego, even though we lost our point or didn't achieve anything. This student seems like an example of that.
That dude is lost he doesn’t even know the loopholes, if someone were to say I don’t believe in gravity does it make gravity false? Objective morality doesn’t care about your subjective thoughts he just doesn’t get that.
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept
@@trumpbellend6717 You are doing the same thing as the kid in the video. I would base my arguments of which God grounds objective morality off what has the best evidence, I could be wrong though. Objective morality if true is grounded in the God that exists, it has nothing to do with what god we determined to be true. All of us experience the existencial questions and wrestle with the explination of reality and basing it in the God with significantly more evidence than any other god is hardly vacuous.
@@cadestekly6410 Lol and which if any has _"the best evidence"_ is an entirely subjective determination dear 🤭😅🤣 But hey here is your big opportunity to present the evidence that our moral status is the result of a talking snake convincing a rib woman and mud figurine man to eat a magic fruit against the wishes of an invisible God called Yahweh. Go ahead I'll wait....
@@cadestekly6410 Let's compare our moral standards dear, mine tells me that *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"* Is not nor ever was a "moral" instruction and certainly not a moral reference standard that anyone should adhere or aspire to. Do you agree *YES or NO* ?? 🤔
@@cadestekly6410 // "objective morality if true is grounded in the god that exists" // Lol a "taughtology" is all you offer and even then it's flawed. Let me give you a scenario to demonstrate that moral "good" does NOT depend on any "God" 👇 let's say the there is indeed a "creator god and let's say we all become aware of this one true "creator God" and understand implicitly and precisely how he wants us to live our lives and the rules that govern this but .................. We also learn that following said rules would infact lead to humanity suffering an eternity of torture and suffering. 😱😱 Would it still be a "GOOD" thing to follow said rules ??? Would we be "justified" in following them ?? 🤔 *I would emphatically say NO to both questions* Indeed the total opposite would be the case following the rules would be a "BAD" thing and we would be entirely justified in NOT following them. This is because the words "Good" and "Bad" in actuality refer to our desires with regard to "WELLBEING" and the actualization of a situation that conforms with said desires, regarding wellbeing and the values it incorporates not the perceived desires or nature of a "creator" Now let's change our "God" to the Christian one, now we recognise that *EVEN IF* he exists and the things he tells us ( his laws ) would lead to an eternal paradise, it would only be "GOOD" to follow said laws because of their conforming with *"OUR"* perception of "WELLBEING" Now call me fussy but I don't think its "Good" to kill children for making fun of baldness ( as the biblical God did ) Nor to own people as "PROPERTY" for forced labour. For the life of me I can't see how the execution of people who gather sticks on a sabbath could ever be said to be "Good" 🤔 I could go on and on and on .....
@@vladtheemailer3223 By using the word ethical do you mean honorable, standards of social or professional behavior, or a code or theory of behavior. By using the word subjectivism do you mean knowledge and value are dependent on your subjective experience? Reads like a word salad to me. Relative morality : this works for me and I don’t care if it doesn’t work for you. Objective morality: it doesn’t work for me, but I will make sure it works for my neighbors. God ‘s is the objective morality that says “ love your enemies “
"You're just a professional debater" I've watched great atheists try to make sense of where the universe comes from. And it's not that Cliffe is a good debater. It's simply Atheists cannot answer the question without relying on the divine
No one knows how this universe became as it is, or even if "became" is factual. Your accusation of "atheists" here is not at all true. But an "I don't know" answer is more honest than "uhUHuh?...therefore god".
@@DRayL_because we cannot prove anything. We can have strong evidence pointing to something and come to a consensus that this must be it but we cannot prove without the benefit of the doubt anything in life, in the universe, in anything. The evidence that we do have is that the universe had a beginning, therefore, the universe has not always been around and there had to be an uncaused cause that created the universe.
@@joosuee.p This current universe appears to have had "a beginning", but what was before that point in time is an unknown. And nothing at all indicates it as "a creation". "Creation" indicates intent. That cannot be found anywhere. It is a faith claim only.
@@DRayL_ when you say “appears to have a beginning”, are you saying that it didn’t actually have a beginning or are you saying that just because you don’t want to accept it as a fact? You’re right that we don’t KNOW what was before that time, and we likely won’t ever until our deaths or the end of ages if you subscribe to my belief but according to your beliefs we’ll probably never know. What we do know and have evidence for is that the universe did begin through the “big bang” event that sparked everything into existence. And if you understand science and the study of the universe, you should know that everything needs an origin. Something cannot come from nothing, there needs to be an existing something to be able to create a new something because from all science fields this remains as a universal truth if you will it. So you can continue to reject the idea of a Creator if you like but if you can just accept the strong evidence and statistical reasoning for there having been intelligent design and creation then you can truly start grounding your beliefs on a strong foundation rather than one that I personally believe takes a lot more faith to stand on.
@@DRayL_the universe doesnt just appear to have a begining it has a begining. If the universe didnt have a begining that would mean it is eternal and an eternal universe is impossible
Only the Holy Spirit can change a person. You can try to give valid arguments and they will find a way to oppose it. That's devil's influence, desires of the flesh, but by sowing to please the Spirit reaps eternal life. Only God can change a person, so my brothers and sisters, if you want your loved ones to be a disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ, pray for them ❤️ Then be still, and know that the LORD is God 🙏
They come from a society of people wanting to exist in as healthy of society as possible. How that takes place comes from many sources, including people who devise a 'deity with rules'.
There was more atheists in that crowd than just him... Did you forget the girl also? The worst thing was the atheist putting words in Cliffe's mouth that he has never said
I get that however I was apart of the crowd and I feel like Cliffe and Stuart usually have a good way of balancing each other and not talking over one another
They should probly relax a little lol. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” 1 Pet 3:15 Not really gentle or respectful. And I totally agree with their Christian worldview
The only argument you have for this being disrespectful is when Cliff’ son started to antagonize the guy by copying his hand motions, but even then he followed up by saying “honestly, what is this”? Being stern in how you use language is not disrespectful. They came at this with grace and truth.
@@Twmporter read Peter’s first sermon after Pentecost. He blames the people for crucifying Jesus and the people are cut to the heart and believe. That’s extremely harsh but it’s reality. I do think Cliff interrupted the guy but I think it is more loving to cut off mindless arguments so the crowd doesn’t get confused and restore order in the debate. Cliff more than the college student kept emotions down and tried to shake his hand and show appreciation for raising his issues.
@@Twmporter Just so I am where you are at 5 years from now, what would you have said or done differently? How have you matured in your faith that causes your heart to be cautious with their approach?
Cliffe didn't address the kid's arguments, unfortunately. He did okay addressing the problem of morality, but the kid is sharper than given credit, and Cliff didn't address his complaints. The girl at the end of the video was extremely insightful. Cliff didn't cite Romans 1:18-20 when he should have to answer her.
If the person is an atheist, Romans 1 is irrelevant. It isn't meant for them. But what Cliffe responded with was just more irrelevant word play that didn't really even make sense.
What does their conversation have to do with who he voted for? Cliff said multiple times it is not the Democratic party or Republican party that will save America. It's Jesus.
There's no such thing as an atheist. An athiest is a christian who doesnt like being told "No. You can't do that." Converse long enough and youll find that every single time, theres somthing the bible says no to that they really want to continue doing
It’s fruitless to share the gospel with someone that doesn’t believe in God. You are wasting your time. The boy was much ruder. Get out of your feelings and listen to the arguments. If he can get him to believe in God then he can share the gospel and show him the love of God.
If a fisherman sees a school of fish he doesn't say "oh, I can't fish that, that is not a fish, it's a school" He says "oh, more fish". Just like society is not something above humans, it's just a group of individuals. So determining right and wrong based on a society's beliefs is not different from basing it in a single individual's belief.
As Jordan Peterson has said, and something that has stuck with me for a couple of years now since I started listening to him - is that you are morally always aiming for the highest good. That is and is always the goal in any given situation under the power of god. To listen to the good choices god shows you and to pick the morally HIGHEST good decision for the well being of - well good as its own entity. You have to treat it as a new element in your life because there are now differences between choosing a decision when you know the outcome of your decision. Why choose to hurt? To lie? To be selfish to the fullest extent? Of course we have to look out for ourselves, BUT to be AWARE of how your decisions affect the community around you and the well being of everyone in it. Enter in the variables in any given situation and it changes of course, but its sad to see that he doesn't understand innately there are differences in what is good and bad relatively and objectively. I hope he's able to figure out the differences some day.
Abusing innocent children is wrong because we as a society have decided it's wrong. It's not that difficult Cliff. No it is not absolutely objectively wrong but it doesn't need to be.
I've said before that some actions are so heinous that some would see it as "objectively wrong", but it is still people making that conclusion because we know the harm some things can cause. We don't need "an absolute moral authority figure to tell us it is wrong".
Morality is a social construction. Morality results from rational choices. Morality results from a complex interaction of genes, neural processes, and social interactions. Hence the origins of morality are both neural and social.
@@pabloscobar958 The problem is they just randomly ascribe a moral objectivity to a "god." Kind of feels like they're begging the question. Just because something/someone is created doesn't mean there's suddenly a moral objectivity. Even if we assume there is a creator, a god, why can't that entity change its views on morality?
When Cliff puts his hands on his knees it's over for these kids. 😅
Lol
That's true😂😂
So then what about when Cliff puts his hands on his 🐓 and touches himself, breaking the rules of the bible
FR
14:10 the man got a little curious with the horse statue
I was an atheist for 28 years and I used to believe the same thing that morality was relative not objective. Then I had children and slowly the Lord opened my eyes until June of this year when I had a super natural experience with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Now that Lord Jesus has opened my eyes, I now see that morality is in fact objective and it is given to us by God. Your conscience is God's way of showing you, in your heart and mind what is evil and what is good.
Awesome.
❤ The impact of objective reality starting with God lets us live freely
Thank you for sharing! ❤ may I ask what the supernatural experience was? I understand if not
what was your experience and how do you know it was not natural
It is relative. All you have to do is take some time to learn.
That is the 1st time that I have seen anyone not willing to shake hands. I sense a lot of anger in him. There's no reason why people who disagree cannot shake hands and walk away friendly.
It does show all who has the personal issues within him compared to the other
It’s all about ego death. Denying himself and realizing his life is wrong would put him in a quarter life crisis. He fears that Jesus is the truth
Not surprising. We live in a society where shaking hands is scary now. I was always raised to shake a man’s hand out of respect NO MATTER the argument or debate or views. Shake hands and walk away. Even in sports. You can beat each other down but always shake hands after.
Well he's a "professional fing debater" lol. He was just upset that Cliffe was making sense and tore down one by one all his questions.
Notice how it's ALWAYS anger when it comes to God? They get mad because they know inside that there are consequences to their actions and they hate it. They want to do whatever they want with no repercussions. That''s why you see a lot of these not even debate or even talk to you.
Cliff is a better man than me. I say F this guy and anyone else like him.
I just watched the first 4 mins ... it's mindblowing for me that folks would say " It's okay to harm people because everything is relative" just to avoid saying that God exists.
It is okay to harm people under specific circumstances, or do you disagree?
@@arohk4415this looks so much like bait 🗿
@@cauan-ex2phit is relative. You just need to spend more than five minutes thinking about it.
just to be clear, i'll add ** innocent people **
@@oscardeza7030 who decides who is innocent, you?
Someone might think cliffe was being hard on this kid but hearing this kid’s arguments, he’s lucky cliffe wasn’t harder on him.
Yeah, like all Cliffe did was yell louder, straw man him, and equivocate as usual.
@@mirandahotspring4019strawman? In what way? Please point it on timestamp
@@mirandahotspring4019 tell me how it’s a straw man??? it’s funny how you’re just telling him it’s all fallacy, but you’re not giving any insight on why it isn’t so in your comment it’s invalid and you’re an idiot.
@@mirandahotspring4019you gonna defend someone who won’t shake a hand. That’s not being a man. But in terms of what you were specifically complaining about… I don’t see the straw man’s? I see the points being made. If you’re an atheist that means relativity morally is all over the place.
@@SolidPain6624 bro she's an wicked atheist, I have seen all her comments in cliff debate videos!!
Debating students like that blonde dude, is why Cliffe has so many grey hairs. God Bless Cliffe and Stuart
You're spot on there
Lol God isn’t real, it’s a fictional mythology character about an evil sorcerer, who talks to snakes & turtles, summons giant insect hordes to attack the townspeople’s crops, casts evil spirits who feast on the souls of the 1st born, and has an undead zombie apprentice who rose from the grave & rides a magical donkey into town to declare his glory😂
@@henrymonroy9533 yeah jesus is pretty cool
@@LordOfThePancakes You probably believe in the big bang, which means you believe in many more miracles than I do. You believe something came from nothing. That is just insane, you need some meds.
Doesn’t mean Cliffe is right!!
By him not wanting to shake Cliffs hand, shows he hates Cliff based on his beliefs. But would he want someone else to hate him for his? No, he wouldn't. You can't explain logic to a person like that. Because they refuse to accept it.
To me that's insanity
Emotions do override logic and critical thinking...
Lol God isn’t real, it’s a fictional mythology character about an evil sorcerer, who talks to snakes & turtles, summons giant insect hordes to attack the townspeople’s crops, casts evil spirits who feast on the souls of the 1st born, and has an undead zombie apprentice who rose from the grave & rides a magical donkey into town to declare his glory😂
@LordOfThePancakes one day you will stand before Jesus and face his judgement. And he will tell you to depart from him because he does not know you. And you will be cast into eternal death instead of life. You still have the opportunity to get to know him and surrender your heart to him. He made you. Gave you life. You owe everything to him. Just because you don't believe in him doesn't make him not real. The time will come when you will beg him for another chance to know him and it will be to late. Don't waste your opportunity you have now. Don't have that regret to face later. Jesus loves you and he wants to know you. He went through unimaginable pain and suffering for you. He doesn't want you to throw away what he did for you. No one on this earth could ever love you like he does. And you have a chance to have that love for eternity. Please don't throw it all away.
Spirit of Pride very evident in that student
Keep planting the seed and let God to do the watering. The first step is they all are listening.
Truth!
there's something so genuinely disturbing about the word choice of "planting the seed". The idea of sowing an idea into the back of someone's mind so they eventually think the way you want them to is very akin to indoctrination and is largely the reason a lot of religious practices give me such a bad taste in my mouth (keyword most btw, not all).
@@spookytimejunctionI think that if you consider it from a different perspective, you might find it rather comforting. Planting the seed is simply an act of preparation. If there is no God, then on the basis of what they’ve said, no one will water it. However, if the God being referred to is real, he can tend to that seed that was planted to open someone’s mind to his existence and potential eternal salvation. If he isn’t real, no harm done, no watering, not much of anything really- but if he is, it is a chance for him to work in powerful ways. I personally believe, but I think this sort of perspective can calm the minds of even those who do not
Indoctrination is great if the doctrine is true
@spookytimejunction Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Then you better not look up marketing science, it's all about using human psychology to get you to buy whatever they want you to. Not to mention social media using our own psychology to get us addicted to thier apps. The world is filthy and corrupt. Jesus is pure, trust worthy and loving. To each their own I guess 🤷
“How is it objective?”
Objective means its true regardless of whether we believe it to be true or not.
It's their buzz word that causes them to think they're morally superior.
Yes and morality is subjective not objective
What is or is not immoral has changed through the years as human beings have gotten more civilized
The problem of morality being subjective doesn't change if God exists, it just shifts whose opinion on morality you're talking about
Except good isn't just God's belief. It flows out of his character
@@georgewagner7787
Sorry but cannot claim God has good character when he has murdered children
@@georgewagner7787 that still doesn't meet the definition of objective used in metaethics.
Guy wasn't even listening
Standard 🙄 😂
it really is hard to listen to so much nonsense, and it is even harder when the person speaks fast so you cant respond to the nonsense.
@@arohk4415 Right, that is why it is so hard to debate atheists. Because that is all they do.
@@arohk4415and im not letting you talk if you can't even understand simple thing 🫵🤣
@@arohk4415Being an idiot is okay, but being an idiot in your whole life, bro, you're funny asf 🫵🤣
3:35 I love how Cliffe and Stuart get into the most main character stances when they debate 🤣🤣
They have never Gotten into a main character Stances they are answering questions from people who want to start stuff
@@paperman910 Cliffe wants to start stuff. He is quarrelsome and goes out looking for trouble. He is a heretic and a blasphemer.
@@br.m
How so? He’s preaching the true gospel. Blasphemer? How can you make something like that up?
@@Azyo62 Not so. I've listened to a lot of Cliffes ranting. He preaches a false gospel. He is also psychotic and combative and lives for punching down at youngsters.
He is not calm and reasonable like preachers are supposed to be. He also preaches work salvation instead of faith. He even blasphemes the Spirit by saying that babies can't be baptized. Good luck.
@@br.myou’re schizo
Ive always loved the, "oh you believe that humans have value, and you beliece its not ok to do things that harm others, so im not gonna shake your hand.'
😂 so true.
Christian here- but props to the girl at the end who actually LISTENED to them talk instead of just talking through them. And also de-escalating the situation.
"How is it objective if not everyone agrees with it?" ....spoken like a true individual who cannot think for themselves.
Lots of people thought heliocentrism wasn't objectively true, did that make it any less so?
LOL that was the best part imo. Is like 1500 years ago, ppl didnt know quantum, gravity law or thermodinamics, or bacteria, but they were there and they were true... Since when the masses are smart?
The guy is not interested to understand. He is there to attack the intellectuality and not even interested to agree to disagree.
The point that Stewart and Cliffe should have hit home with the student is to say that because morality is all relative, if you try to enforce morality on another person, then logically you are violating moral relativism because you are automatically assuming that your morals are superior to theirs. That's not more relativism. That's moral objectivism. Relativism is where you treat all moral viewpoints as equally valid, and therefore no laws should be enforced. But the reason why we have laws in the first place is because if morality can be totally subjectivized or relativized then you'll end up with anarchy.
He kinda hit on what you're saying at the 7 min mark. But I liked the way you worded it and I will be using this lol.
You really should learn what these words mean.
@vladtheemailer3223 how about it instead you present a rebuttal?
If moral relativism is defined as the view that all moral view points are equally valid, what do you think the necessary logical entailment is that follows from that? That courts of law should still be implemented? On what grounds should courts of law still be enforced if morality is relative?
@@josephthomasmusic "On what grounds should courts of law still be enforced if morality is relative?" Power and violence. Morality doesn't exist either. Morality is just fear of other people.
@@Jake-mv7yothen you've just proven that power and violence are not bad things. They're just things that happen and we should just accept them. But the minute that you implement courts of law and enforcement of certain values over others, you're automatically violating your own claim that morality doesn't exist. Do you see where you just refuted your own argument?
This is precisely why subjective moral reasoning and "morality doesn't exist" are poor positions to maintain, because they are systemically contradictory.
Anyone else hear the “Bruh” at 7:06? LOL!
lol same
Good afternoon on this
Magnificent Monday;
Sacramento's weather
For today is 63° ⛅
Today's Daily
Scriptures are:
~ 1 John 2:15,16
15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Bonus Scriptures:
~1 John 2:1-14;17-29
-All Glory goes to the Most High, The Great "I Am" Yahweh, Our Rock,
The Alpha & Omega.
- God Bless you My
Friend & family.
Amen
No, it's Tuesday afternoon here!
Amen 🙏🏼
Cliffe be cooking 😂 I love him & Stuart. God bless them!
If you're bias toward that message, I guess you would think him "cooking".
The best argument against a relativist is "I disagree, thus you're wrong". They're literally unable to come out of that without contradicting themselves.
Metaethical relativism is a position about the truth of first-order moral claims. It is not a position about whether the truth of all claims is relative.
@lanceindependent I disagree, thus you're wrong.
@@lanceindependent just more word games. It muddies the water to make it seem deep, but really you are just purposely misunderstanding simple logical inferences in order to substitute in something that you can agree with, and without having any of your suppositions challenged.
@@bklan9899Please provide the simple logical inference you have in mind that demonstrates a problem for moral relativism.
@@bklan9899 What specifically do you believe I am purposelessly misunderstanding?
One of the best debates I’ve heard in a while
This debate, literally, proved: darkness cannot comprehend the light.
You would have to provide verifiable evidence of this "darkness" and this "light" before you could "literally prove" anything.
@@DRayL_you dont even understand the reference do you? What an amateur.
@@itaxevasixn8808 It's hilarious when some rando on the internet claims something about another person they have literally zero knowledge of, and does so for no reason but to be insulting. LOL The reference is from the Bible, of course. What makes you think this was "not understood"? The Bible is still required to provide verifiable evidence. Run along, sport. Bother someone else.
Amen!
Man ppl who debate or put up with conversations like the blond headed dude who cnt fathom to be wrong at something is hard for them to understand just shows how humble cliff n stuart are n filled with the holy spirit
I used to be an atheist. I was a believer and I slid off. More than not finding an explanation for reality, what led me down that path was the ability to define anything in reality. Was living all the freedom and pleasure, defining anything by my liking only to feel exhausted of doing everything without a purpose. Atheism, despite the belief of the non-existence of a God, made me hunger for meaning. There was no inherent value, objective truth, absolute perfection, moral law and principles. Indeed, meaningless does not come from being weary of pain, it comes from being weary of pleasure. Christ, only Him, only Jesus, can fill that void, that dark abyss, that longing for meaning and purpose, that guidance. He is the only one that actually cares. Give your life to Him. And watch how he can take your life and turn it around. He is worth every sacrifice because He loved me first.
For me, the 'Jesus' story, and my sincere attempt to find 'the Jesus god entity' was far more empty, void, dark abyssal, meaningless, and purposeless. Today, I live my life in honesty, no longer trying to be what others expected of me.
I love Cliffe and Stuart, however I feel like there could have been a better response. This guy needed someone to better explain the fault in his thinking by his definition of Objective vs subjective vs relative. Even I get confused sometimes with the difference.
The boy was debating practice while cliff was debating principle.
Practice vs principle is always the issue. Just because someone practices some form of relative belief, does not make it correct.
The earth is round, yet some say it's flat... the fact of the matter is, while one of those is a subjective opinion, the other is objectively true.
This is the best way to explain morality to people.
The sun is going to burn your skin off if you get close enough regardless of what society believes. Thats objective.
If someone is at a university and doesn’t understand Objective vs subjective vs relative, then I really don’t know how you could teach them anything. Basic English is the reason he can’t grasp morality? A terrifying thought, to be sure.
@@Kyryyn_Lyyh Not all undergraduates and even postgraduates can understand these. It's the same that you failed to understand this.
@@eking3469 "It's the same that you failed to understand this."
This sentence is poorly constructed, idk if you typo'd or just are ESL (sentence structure in English is the opposite of most other languages) but I should clarify my point is:
If someone is at University, and is trying to grasp complex ideas, they should already understand basic meanings of words. I would never assume anyone who finished high school to not understand these terms. If you think that is a common occurrence, I shudder to think what the future holds - where the 'brightest minds' don't have a firm grasp of their mother tongue.
“How do you get sacrificing for others from evolution?”
Oh because a society that had those types of traits would survive longer than ones that don’t.
But I don't care about society if it means I don't survive. Not that magnanomous sorry
@ I don’t think you understand what I said.
Individuals don’t survive on their own. They only survive in societies for the large part. Thus a society full of people who are selfless will survive longer and pass on those traits to more offspring than a society of selfish people.
Does that make more sense? If the society has fewer people willing to sacrifice their lives, paradoxically that means LESS people survive, not more.
@@faxonboywhy have sharks been around so long? They eat their own babies and they eat each other. Yet they’ve been here for a longgggg time.
@ wat
Edit: I’d have to research shark evolution to tel ya
🤣
Bro, how have we come to a point where our youth has absolutely zero concept of basic philosophy
I have a biblical worldview, saw the video from it's start to finish (but not the actual debate from start to finish). Cliff does a great job explaining the faith and witnessing in previous videos I've watched. This is a tough video to watch for me because it feels like there's a touch of gentleness missing in this conversation which could have created a bit of hesitancy, stumbling block or a mindset of "digging their heels in" for this student actually being won over. I love Cliff, appreciate his stern demeanor and boldness, but hope that this conversation was followed up with a gentle encounter once emotions simmered down. Great argument, think it was just clouded by a bit of understandable emotion. Grace and peace to both
Yeah its a bit aggressive on both sides
@@zepeda201 agreed, these conversations are good and can be tough at times. I trust that the conversation was fruitful to both at the end of day.
The young man is full of pride and arrogance. He probably thought Cliff has a script that he goes by when answering questions. This is what he should have learned , he really doesn’t know what relative morality is verses objective morality.
I don't think the object here is trying to win the young man over. The object is to debate and in essence to argue him into circles. This conversation will work on him for years. God will use it. Not everything always needs to be so gentle. Sometimes you need a big force. This conversation is perfect for this kids intellect and age right now. These are men calling him into maturity and into mature reasoning.
9:20, the guy has a point there. Until we judge every deed in the perspective of pursuing self realisation, everything, every single thing is a kick in the dark, a bad thing. Now it moves up and down the spectrum but still, it's within a material designation. Not transcendental.
He knows but he wont tell.Jesus is Lord. Amen.
Who is the 'he', what does 'he know and won't tell'?
The key word missing is "absolute moral values", better than objective moral values. The kid missed that there were NO SPACE at yhr beginning, NO TIME. They keep quoting science wrong
When it comes to abstract concepts Objective by definition means absolute just saying
@@RoyCyberPunk no, it doesn't. Absolute and objective are completely distinct concepts.
It's better to believe that something CAME FROM EVERYTHING than something came from nothing
No one in the science community says "came from nothing". This is a Strawman fallacy from apologists attempting to make others "appear foolish", but have only managed to fool themselves and anyone else who thinks it is factual.
The only people saying that anything comes from nothing is theists who don't understand what other people believe.
The information is easily accessible, go educate yourself....
@@DRayL_Then, where does the Universe come from?
@Woke_Invaders
Theyll say I dont know and then say but we know it is not God 💀 they also dont realize that you dont have to put the same stipulations on matter as you do with God who is spirit. God is outside of the confines of space time and matter. So asking "where did God come from" doesnt even have to apply. God is eternal
@@Woke_Invaders Don't listen to FollowJesus777-KING. That isn't what "they'll say". No one knows how the universe is as it is. It is the accepted Theory that it started in an expansion, but what was before that point in time is an unknown.
At the 17 minute mark, you can see this kid recording this on his phone and every time Cliffe says "baloney" the kid recording his the biggest smile on his face.
Respect to the guy for debating and explaining his perspective but it was clear to see a lot of his points were difficult to understand because he was trying to avoid certain explanations that would have destroyed his own argument
This kid is not only hard headed but a hardened heart it seems like. Lets pray for him. 🙏❤
that kid just tried to win the argument, I hope he really learn something
I think he was just having a hard time understanding not necessarily trying to “win the argument” I’m in the same boat still trying to understand
Awesome video
Cliffe can't talk to people like this. Like an irate customer who just wants to argue and not fix the issue - just go around in circles because they refuse to take in what others say. Anyone who agrees with how the other guy behaved needs to be prayed for.
Cliffe fail to see his own hypocrisy
I agree. Apologists like Cliffe are a lost cause. Even if they could actually listen to the opposing view, they would never change their mind because their whole life is built on being an apologist.
@@trumpbellend6717 happy for you to point out the hypocrisy
@somerandom3247 it's not about changing minds, it's about listening and knowing you won't agree. Cliffe isn't forcing his belief or views on someone, he's explaining where he stands and why he stands there - it's those that try to debate him that cannot further back up their explanation so decide to go in circles like this guy.
@@BlahBlahBlah-rf2so
// "happy for you to point out the hypocrisy" //
Certainly dear let me do so by asking a question, is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ??
If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept
Some people just like to argue no matter if they are right or wrong
Its easy, subjectivly choose what the goal of moral right and moral wrong is, then one can objectivly judge, given their information at hand, what is right and wrong
I'm a Christian and Cliffe and Stuart are 100% right but they were very obviously overly aggressive in this debate from the get go. Wish they showed more of Jesus' love and told him about the gospel.
It's called being passionate.
The tone police see otherwise.🙄
Cliffe are debating an athiest who doesn't believe in God. Cliffe did the right thing to put some seed in his mind without mentioning the Bible but bringing upt the idea that before the Beginning there was a Creator who creates creation. Creations is not by Accident. It does not create order, Accident creates chaos.
Cliffe doesn't come off as a likeable person, he just likes to debate. He could be debating vacuum cleaners. I wouldn't be surprised to even find out that he's not a Christian but he knows how to argue for the existence of the biblical God. The same way the devil "knew" God was real.
19:42 that's a prick response
9:23 watch this black man just dip after the blonde kid said that society agreed that slavery was generally a good thing--literally left the whole circle and went on with his day
9:13 bro was gone 💀
I actually love this kids argument and learned a lot from his questions. We need to use this as a learning moment for everyone listening not a moment to hate on a single person questioning the most important thing in his life.
I learned something new love is a free decision and a will to care for someone thanks cliff
The kid is just focusing on society. Sometimes we just block ourselves at the point where we don't want to see the truth. To have any kind of debate we have to be open minded and respect others opinions. Good debate 🎉❤
Ah the skeptic that is skeptical about everything but his own skepticism. Did someone see a Merry-go-round?
An atheist believes in the impossible. Chance, luck, and randomness = LIFE! What a coincidence! It actually takes MORE faith to believe in atheism then God.
😮💨🔥👌wouldn’t have said any differently
A magic Jew man with a magic wand whipping up a cosmos in 6 days, that's the possible?
@@larrycarter3765 Art can’t create itself there’s an artist 💯
@@OGflare201 Amazing! I agree! Artists are mandatory for Order and Design to exist!
@@OGflare201who said it was created? What if it's evolved?
26:28 baby don't hurt me no more
This was a great debate 😊
Definitely not. The video in question is selectively chosen by smug apologists as propaganda to falsely suggest that atheists lack strong arguments. However, if you watch serious debates between Cliffe and experienced atheists, you'll find that his arguments are quickly dismantled.
“You keep using that word, I don’t think it means what you think it means” -Inigo Montoya
His argument is, because bad things occur on different scales at different times, God cannot exist. He is using the scale of ultimate ‘bad’ to determine nothing good can exist. He’s got half of it down, he just needs to assign a three-letter “S” word to the state, then he will understand humanity & our relationship with God.
Bravo Cliffe and Stewart!
The students simply has not done enough reading to properly deal with this. He should understand the Christian position prior to challenging it.
Christians shouldn't debate morality.
@@DrVarner you're going to expect that from a random student, but you don't expect Cliff to open a philosophy book once in a while so he can't stop making all of these nonsense claims?
@ I expect anyone who is willing to publicly enter an open dialogue to at a minimum be familiar with the basic arguments. As for Cliffe, he is well educated and a graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. I can assure you he has had the philosophy education and read numerous academic text on the subject and its various positions.
@DrVarner I don't think his theological knowledge is a problem, but he has absolutely no business talking philosophy beyond that. An easy example from the video - a error he's continued to make for years - is the claim that without god, we just matter and energy. That, like most of the things he claims are entailments of atheism, just doesn't follow.
@ Theology and Philosophy are two sides of the same coin. Theologian/Philosophers have been tackling this topic for a long time. In fact, as a teacher of Ethics, Philosophy, and Theology, I can assure you he is well with in the realm of Philosophy. It is called the Moral Argument and it is in fact an argument for the existence of God using reason, laws of logic, and established philosophy.
You don’t have to be convinced by it and you can certainly claim Cliffe could present it more clearly (though given the situation and location he does quite well).
Incidentally, if we are the product of chance mutation over time, how would you establish objective morality?
After a certain stage, we often continue debating to protect our ego, even though we lost our point or didn't achieve anything. This student seems like an example of that.
God bless Cliffe and Stuart. ❤
25 minutes of talking in circles!
That's what happens with people who don't want to admit they're wrong. Cliffe is patient.
Love Cliff....but I did not witness very much patience in this debate. They interrupted him way too much.
@@KING_STRONGTH patient, but still wrong.
@@arohk4415 how can you have objective morals without something prior to the human mind that creates and defines morality, meaning, purpose?
@@TheCowabungaBrosMorality is not objective.
That dude is lost he doesn’t even know the loopholes, if someone were to say I don’t believe in gravity does it make gravity false? Objective morality doesn’t care about your subjective thoughts he just doesn’t get that.
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ??
If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept
@@trumpbellend6717 You are doing the same thing as the kid in the video. I would base my arguments of which God grounds objective morality off what has the best evidence, I could be wrong though. Objective morality if true is grounded in the God that exists, it has nothing to do with what god we determined to be true. All of us experience the existencial questions and wrestle with the explination of reality and basing it in the God with significantly more evidence than any other god is hardly vacuous.
@@cadestekly6410
Lol and which if any has _"the best evidence"_ is an entirely subjective determination dear 🤭😅🤣 But hey here is your big opportunity to present the evidence that our moral status is the result of a talking snake convincing a rib woman and mud figurine man to eat a magic fruit against the wishes of an invisible God called Yahweh. Go ahead I'll wait....
@@cadestekly6410
Let's compare our moral standards dear, mine tells me that *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"* Is not nor ever was a "moral" instruction and certainly not a moral reference standard that anyone should adhere or aspire to. Do you agree *YES or NO* ?? 🤔
@@cadestekly6410
// "objective morality if true is grounded in the god that exists" //
Lol a "taughtology" is all you offer and even then it's flawed. Let me give you a scenario to demonstrate that moral "good" does NOT depend on any "God" 👇
let's say the there is indeed a "creator god and let's say we all become aware of this one true "creator God" and understand implicitly and precisely how he wants us to live our lives and the rules that govern this but ..................
We also learn that following said rules would infact lead to humanity suffering an eternity of torture and suffering. 😱😱 Would it still be a "GOOD" thing to follow said rules ??? Would we be "justified" in following them ?? 🤔
*I would emphatically say NO to both questions* Indeed the total opposite would be the case following the rules would be a "BAD" thing and we would be entirely justified in NOT following them.
This is because the words "Good" and "Bad" in actuality refer to our desires with regard to "WELLBEING" and the actualization of a situation that conforms with said desires, regarding wellbeing and the values it incorporates not the perceived desires or nature of a "creator"
Now let's change our "God" to the Christian one, now we recognise that *EVEN IF* he exists and the things he tells us ( his laws ) would lead to an eternal paradise, it would only be "GOOD" to follow said laws because of their conforming with *"OUR"* perception of "WELLBEING"
Now call me fussy but I don't think its "Good" to kill children for making fun of baldness ( as the biblical God did ) Nor to own people as "PROPERTY" for forced labour. For the life of me I can't see how the execution of people who gather sticks on a sabbath could ever be said to be "Good" 🤔
I could go on and on and on .....
Amazing.
Cliffe almost said ‘Away from me, satan!’
Great video!!
That kid doesn't realize that all things come from God even morality
There is a good reason he doesn't realize that nonsense.
That makes it ethical subjectivism.
@@vladtheemailer3223 By using the word ethical do you mean honorable, standards of social or professional behavior, or a code or theory of behavior. By using the word subjectivism do you mean knowledge and value are dependent on your subjective experience? Reads like a word salad to me. Relative morality : this works for me and I don’t care if it doesn’t work for you. Objective morality: it doesn’t work for me, but I will make sure it works for my neighbors. God ‘s is the objective morality that says “ love your enemies “
"You're just a professional debater"
I've watched great atheists try to make sense of where the universe comes from. And it's not that Cliffe is a good debater. It's simply Atheists cannot answer the question without relying on the divine
No one knows how this universe became as it is, or even if "became" is factual. Your accusation of "atheists" here is not at all true. But an "I don't know" answer is more honest than "uhUHuh?...therefore god".
@@DRayL_because we cannot prove anything. We can have strong evidence pointing to something and come to a consensus that this must be it but we cannot prove without the benefit of the doubt anything in life, in the universe, in anything. The evidence that we do have is that the universe had a beginning, therefore, the universe has not always been around and there had to be an uncaused cause that created the universe.
@@joosuee.p This current universe appears to have had "a beginning", but what was before that point in time is an unknown. And nothing at all indicates it as "a creation". "Creation" indicates intent. That cannot be found anywhere. It is a faith claim only.
@@DRayL_ when you say “appears to have a beginning”, are you saying that it didn’t actually have a beginning or are you saying that just because you don’t want to accept it as a fact? You’re right that we don’t KNOW what was before that time, and we likely won’t ever until our deaths or the end of ages if you subscribe to my belief but according to your beliefs we’ll probably never know. What we do know and have evidence for is that the universe did begin through the “big bang” event that sparked everything into existence. And if you understand science and the study of the universe, you should know that everything needs an origin. Something cannot come from nothing, there needs to be an existing something to be able to create a new something because from all science fields this remains as a universal truth if you will it. So you can continue to reject the idea of a Creator if you like but if you can just accept the strong evidence and statistical reasoning for there having been intelligent design and creation then you can truly start grounding your beliefs on a strong foundation rather than one that I personally believe takes a lot more faith to stand on.
@@DRayL_the universe doesnt just appear to have a begining it has a begining. If the universe didnt have a begining that would mean it is eternal and an eternal universe is impossible
Only the Holy Spirit can change a person. You can try to give valid arguments and they will find a way to oppose it. That's devil's influence, desires of the flesh, but by sowing to please the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Only God can change a person, so my brothers and sisters, if you want your loved ones to be a disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ, pray for them ❤️ Then be still, and know that the LORD is God 🙏
The atheist doesn't realize where he got his morals and values of wrong or right from.
They come from a society of people wanting to exist in as healthy of society as possible. How that takes place comes from many sources, including people who devise a 'deity with rules'.
@DRayL_ deity ...exactly. tell the kid that 😄 God bless
@@orfatron I'm not sure what is supposed to be funny.
Old and new tastement all says slavery is not wrong.
Kid needs Relatives.
And Common sense.
hmm I like these debates, but 2v1 is not the best look and tends to escalate things
I've seen 3v1 before 🙄
There was more atheists in that crowd than just him... Did you forget the girl also?
The worst thing was the atheist putting words in Cliffe's mouth that he has never said
No, issue is that the athiest wan't being honest during the entire debate. His ego would not allow him to think, rationally.
It can come off as an attack especially when you are losing ground in the debate
I get that however I was apart of the crowd and I feel like Cliffe and Stuart usually have a good way of balancing each other and not talking over one another
5:00 take notes ppl🙏🏽
It's brave to be Christian. It takes a real man or woman to stand in Jesus path. Hallelujah 🙏. Love to all
The fact they keep going in loops is hurting my head
They should probly relax a little lol. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” 1 Pet 3:15
Not really gentle or respectful. And I totally agree with their Christian worldview
This was both gentle and respectful. They engaged with him, held to truth and were not insulting. Jesus was much harder in the Scriptures.
The only argument you have for this being disrespectful is when Cliff’ son started to antagonize the guy by copying his hand motions, but even then he followed up by saying “honestly, what is this”? Being stern in how you use language is not disrespectful. They came at this with grace and truth.
Thanks, it’s okay to not agree. And I don’t agree, but I probably would’ve said exactly what you said 5 years ago.
@@Twmporter read Peter’s first sermon after Pentecost. He blames the people for crucifying Jesus and the people are cut to the heart and believe. That’s extremely harsh but it’s reality. I do think Cliff interrupted the guy but I think it is more loving to cut off mindless arguments so the crowd doesn’t get confused and restore order in the debate. Cliff more than the college student kept emotions down and tried to shake his hand and show appreciation for raising his issues.
@@Twmporter Just so I am where you are at 5 years from now, what would you have said or done differently? How have you matured in your faith that causes your heart to be cautious with their approach?
Cliffe didn't address the kid's arguments, unfortunately. He did okay addressing the problem of morality, but the kid is sharper than given credit, and Cliff didn't address his complaints.
The girl at the end of the video was extremely insightful. Cliff didn't cite Romans 1:18-20 when he should have to answer her.
If the person is an atheist, Romans 1 is irrelevant. It isn't meant for them.
But what Cliffe responded with was just more irrelevant word play that didn't really even make sense.
It looks like debating for a career really makes a difference in a debate .
You’re good at debating Cliffe
Tells you a lot about a person when they refuse to shake hands after a debate
"Religion to the wise is false, to the common is true, to the leaders it's useful.!"
I guarantee he voted for Kamala
Sounds like you're proud to vote for a lying, narcissistic, convicted criminal and adjudicated rapist. Very Christian choice.
100%. Glad she lost.
You all should have.
@@larrycarter3765 No we shouldn't have. Glad she lost.
What does their conversation have to do with who he voted for? Cliff said multiple times it is not the Democratic party or Republican party that will save America. It's Jesus.
There's no such thing as an atheist. An athiest is a christian who doesnt like being told "No. You can't do that." Converse long enough and youll find that every single time, theres somthing the bible says no to that they really want to continue doing
Atheist don't believe in God. Your opinion is irrelevant.
No such thing as a Christian just a grown up who believes in fairy tales
You are wrong.
I think Cliffe is a bit harsh in his comments towards this kid. These debates do not favour providing truth in the Gospel.
It’s fruitless to share the gospel with someone that doesn’t believe in God. You are wasting your time. The boy was much ruder. Get out of your feelings and listen to the arguments. If he can get him to believe in God then he can share the gospel and show him the love of God.
Really enjoyed this.
This is what arguing for the sake of arguing looks like to portray you haven’t folded.
He is a bad debater
And Cliffe is a master debater! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Most of these kids in university don't know to properly debate.
@@mirandahotspring4019you’re such a loser
I like this debate 👍
Good discussion
That last part is really what makes sense and should make sense to any athiest
Which part, exactly? He said many things at the end.
If a fisherman sees a school of fish he doesn't say "oh, I can't fish that, that is not a fish, it's a school" He says "oh, more fish". Just like society is not something above humans, it's just a group of individuals. So determining right and wrong based on a society's beliefs is not different from basing it in a single individual's belief.
As Jordan Peterson has said, and something that has stuck with me for a couple of years now since I started listening to him - is that you are morally always aiming for the highest good. That is and is always the goal in any given situation under the power of god. To listen to the good choices god shows you and to pick the morally HIGHEST good decision for the well being of - well good as its own entity. You have to treat it as a new element in your life because there are now differences between choosing a decision when you know the outcome of your decision. Why choose to hurt? To lie? To be selfish to the fullest extent?
Of course we have to look out for ourselves, BUT to be AWARE of how your decisions affect the community around you and the well being of everyone in it.
Enter in the variables in any given situation and it changes of course, but its sad to see that he doesn't understand innately there are differences in what is good and bad relatively and objectively.
I hope he's able to figure out the differences some day.
Amen
"cliffe khen-nectle" i cant with this ai voices bruh 😭😭😭
Faith is seeing what isn't there. It takes faith to believe in a creator
God bless you, brother Cliffe!!!
I love how Cliffe called out the guy's disrespect to his face
9:06 The “bruh” in the background was great!
The most strongest debate yet cliffe saying you jump first we jump second. Gangsta. Us Christian’s ain’t no punks.
Abusing innocent children is wrong because we as a society have decided it's wrong. It's not that difficult Cliff. No it is not absolutely objectively wrong but it doesn't need to be.
I've said before that some actions are so heinous that some would see it as "objectively wrong", but it is still people making that conclusion because we know the harm some things can cause. We don't need "an absolute moral authority figure to tell us it is wrong".
Some actions are so heinous meaning wicked so how do you know it's wicked and which are the actions? How do you think the conclusions are made?
@@demsineedjamboya7175 ...because we know the harm things can cause.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic/divinity”.
- Arthur C. Clarke
Morality is a social construction. Morality results from rational choices. Morality results from a complex interaction of genes, neural processes, and social interactions. Hence the origins of morality are both neural and social.
I want to off you. I am not wrong. Try to tell me i am wrong.
I'm not really sure how the presence of a "god" would make morality any more objective than if a "god" didn't exist.
maybe you should watch the video again
@@pabloscobar958 The problem is they just randomly ascribe a moral objectivity to a "god." Kind of feels like they're begging the question. Just because something/someone is created doesn't mean there's suddenly a moral objectivity. Even if we assume there is a creator, a god, why can't that entity change its views on morality?
@@nomercy4521 YOu didnt watch the video, he clearly answers this in the video
WWE style camera work. Is awesome haha
Picks the worst atheist to debate with and calls it a win
so heartwarming listening to cliffe speak