Having been a devout Catholic my whole life, I became an Evangelical. My former friends view it as abandoning the faith, whereas in my heart, God has called me to understand His Word so much better. In my earlier life, I followed the church, whereas now, God's Word is the final authority.
@barrypatrickius You went through a school of the Vatican II sect, not the Catholic Church. The Vatican II sect is just another Protestant "denomination."
It was quite obvious for me. I was sick and realized through His Spirit that my life was terribly sinful. I broke down and cried out to God. Two days later I felt His presence and then the Holy Spirit pouring through me. I was healed and my entire life is focused on Him. Glory to God
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted. Mark 13:22 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Revelation 3:16 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@greghanson-w3d Conviction from the Holy Spirit creates a sense of guilt about what you have done. You then freely ask God to forgive you, and “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ~ 1 John 1:9 We are not the ones who do the cleansing, we do not bring the conviction, but we DO respond in faith and ask to be healed, and in turn God promises in his word that he will.
@@Over-for-now Cain and Abel were both fallen men, but one responded to God correctly and the other incorrectly. How could Abel respond correctly to God if his nature is fully corrupt as you understand?
Calvinism is the belief that God only chooses a few to be saved and they believe faith is a work of God. Romans 4:5 Faith apart from works. Faith is not a work. Well they say, then faith must be a gift from God. Romans 6:23 For the penalty of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. The GIFT of God is eternal life. Not faith. First Corinthians 1:18 and First Corinthians 1:21 For after that, by the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE. John 6:47. God cannot lie. John 3:18. Believers can never be condemned again. The sin debt is paid in full. First Corinthians 15:1-4. Romans 3:26-28 For He is the just and the justifier of them that BELIEVE on Jesus. Where is boasting then? (You cannot boast in a free gift that we did nothing for.) It is excluded. By what law? By the law of works? Nay, but by the law of FAITH. Therefore we conclude a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the Law. Galatians 2:21 I do not void the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Romans 4:6 As David describeth the blessedness of the man to whom the Lord imputeth righteousness APART FROM WORKS. Blessed is the man whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. John 3:18. Acts 16:31. John 6:40. First John 5:13. These thing have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Gods word. John 6:47. God cannot lie. We are all sinners. Romans 3:23. Romans 3:9-10. There is none righteous, no not one. But we have His imputed Righteousness without which no one will see God.
Second Timothy 2:13. If we believe not, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself. Ephesians 1:13-14. Our guarantee of eternal life when we accepted His free gift. Romans 6:23. Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, (First Corinthians 15:1-4, For it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Ephesians 4:30. And grieve not the Holy Spirit in whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Acts 16:31. The simplicity of the gospel. John 3:18.
A cousin of mine fell away from the faith and ended up joining a sketchy ungodly cult but, he returned to Christ eventually and he said he's never going to leave again. I believe he's saved.
πιστεύω is the key word to understand this issue. Speaking as someone who thought he believed in Christ as a youth and later believed very Antichrist things, I wasn’t actually saved when I was young because I had not committed myself to πιστεύω in Christ yet. This Greek word is generally translated as “believe” like in John 3:16, but what we generally don’t understand before we get saved, you’re not being asked to believe in a way that you yourself see fit. You’re actually being asked to commit yourself to absolute trust in Christ. If you truly πιστεύω in Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit and be sealed unto the day of salvation, the nuance is trusting in the way Jesus actually asked of us which will mean we are willing to die for the gospel truth if necessary. I didn’t understand the difference until I was 33 and received the Holy Spirit. I had true trust in Christ after hearing the gospel of Matthew on audio on that day, when I was young I still had a future where I could break and thusly I had not yet committed myself to πιστεύω in Christ as I was instructed. We need to believe like the Bible asks, after that we are in the father’s hand and no one can remove us. GOD Bless! ❤️
@@Sam-fp8zm The nuance there is he still had to believe in the Christ of the gospels and not of his own reckoning or that of the world. That’s the only nuance Paul gave us in the gospel when he spoke of trusting in a different spirit other than the one he and the other apostles taught. We can still trust a false Christ even when we believe the resurrection occurred, look at Roman Catholics as an example of what I’m saying. GOD Bless! ❤️
@@narrowistheway77 yeh nar as soon as someone believes Jesus died for mans sins and rose from the dead they are saved forever. Judas never believed from the beginning jesus said so he was never saved.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome I didn’t fumble anything, and you’re actually causing division where none is necessary. I only spoke the Biblical truth and perhaps you need more Bible study to understand what I was actually saying because it has no conflict with the gospel you preached but rather clarified it which Paul himself did numerous times. This isn’t about works or leaven, it’s about making sure neither have been added to the salvation found in Christ. The New Testament was written in Greek because GOD wanted you to understand it as it was written Royce. Sometimes translations lose certain nuances and this is why many people fail to truly believe in Christ as intended whilst others believe the way they were asked without any further explanation because they had faith as intended. For instance Roman Catholics believe in the Christ of their own imagination, they get many things right but they’ve added leaven, idolatry, and a different spirit under the name of Christ to their gospel and thusly are not saved by believing Christ died and was raised to life because their Christ is not Christ. This nuance matters a lot Royce and in truth you already know this but possibly needed examples to understand it. Paul clarifies that the spirit behind the name of Christ is extremely important in Galatians 1 and that you better be sure to trust in the Christ that they preached in order to be saved. Your “Faith” and being under “Grace” literally depends on this. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 is a great passage to understand why so many Pastors are steering their flocks to the flames without showing them the true gospel and teaching the true spirit behind the name of Christ. The Bible even in English gives you a lot of elaborate passages to explain exactly what I said above. Faith means you πιστεύω in Christ Royce. Specifically it means you trust in the correct spirit behind the name of Jesus Christ and not a false one. Clarifying the gospel is a healthy thing to do for others because so many trust that a Jesus of their own imagination saved them rather than the Christ that is written in the Bible itself. Explaining this leads many to read their Bible and truly know Jesus Christ for the first time and be saved through that faith in Jesus Christ as his prophets told of him. The only spirit of Christ that saves is the spirit of Christ given by the prophets. Even Jesus clarified that more than once if you read the gospels diligently. If I believe in a Jesus I’m more comfortable with and believe that Jesus of my imagination rose to life and died for my sins rather than the Christ of scripture then I’ve believed wrongly because I did not πιστεύω in Jesus Christ. These are the foolish virgins who do not keep oil in their lamps. Are we trying to plant seeds for the birds to eat Royce? Seeds cast into thorns to be choked? Seeds onto rocky soil so their roots can be choked? No! We want seeds planted in healthy soil and we need to be good gardeners for the LORD to make sure those seeds grow into a healthy harvest without Satan’s deceptions fooling them into a false gospel. You need to recognize that almost every false gospel still includes the 1 Corinthians 15 gospel. The leaven that destroys the gospel is always subtle because the serpent is more subtle than any other beast of the field. I’ll pray for you! GOD Bless! ❤️
Because believing and having faith is a choice we have, one can fall away. However, some fall away because they were never really converted, or regenerated in the first place. Those who were regenerated, but still fall away, it'll be worse for those folks.
@AVB2 Having faith is a choice. God may have predestined some to be born into a Christian upbringing, but we still have the choice to accept or reject. Beyond that God most definitely did not predestine anybody to he saved. That is not biblical. Why send us down to this earth if our fate was already decided? Why then are we here? We're here to experience life, to learn and grow. We're here to be tested wether we will choose right or wrong. Thats why evil exists, because God will not take away ones free agency even to protect the weak an innocent. Free will is essential to the plan of salvation.
@halodisciple8459 Heaven will be great place for everyone who is born again to be with Christ forevermore...Christians who fall from grace fall into grace..it is like walking a tight rope with a net of safety underneath them...the faith if Christ saves a lost person..the lost person repents & believes in Christ, but he is still not saved until he prays & asks Christ to come into their heart forever to stay as their Saviour & Lord..& He responds "yes" & comes into to sit upon the throne there for all eternity.."whatever God does, He does forever ".. Christ tells Christians when they sin & He chastises all of His children..but sometimes He has to shorten their life physically prematurely ..to put them into heaven..to keep them from going to hell.. becausea Christians cannot end up in hellfire.
The Church I grew with which in many ways that helped shape my thinking in soteriology always taught that Armininanism (and) Calvinism are "both" wrong. I do like this though like he said the "semantics", are a bit different. I am a (zero) point Calvinist we always taught that these 3 categories of people are 1. Spiritual (those who are disciples and bear fruit by abiding in the vine and reliance upon the Spirit of God for daily living) 2. Carnal (those who walk by means and power of the fleshly mind and refuse to yield to the convictions of the Spirit - grieve and quench Him) 3. Unsaved. (Don't trust the death burial and resurrection of Christ for an on their behalf - they're either religious or atheist but do not place their trust in Christ "alone") either they don't believe at all or they mix grace and works All I know... is you CANNOT BE UNBORN or "un" indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. "Some" Armininan's believe if you don't persevere you were lost (unbiblical) the Calvinist believes if you don't persevere you never had it (unbiblical) both are wrong... You're either saved... or lost! "If" you are saved? You're either Spiritual or Carnal. Carnality manifests itself in 3 ways. 1. Legalism (is the mental attitude or false belief which seeks to "earn" or "deserve" the blessings of God "by" religious rituals, good works, for "either" salvation or "for the believer" sanctification) 2. Licentiousness (Obviously this belief goes something like this: well, I'm saved no matter what I do so let's sin it up that grace may abound - see Rom 6) 3. Mysticism (usually based totally on feelings, premonitions, or false revelations that are from the carnal mind or directly from the whispers of evil forces) But yes... "once saved always saved" it happens at a point of time with abiding results Eph 2:8-9 is in the PERFECT tense, PASSIVE voice and INDICATIVE mood: Perfect point in the past, passive it was done onto me meaning the gifts are grace and salvation (NOT FAITH) and indicative which means it's a FACT to be reckoned... so yes, once saved "ALWAYS" saved and that happens the "moment",,, you believe Eph 1:13-14
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. Psalms 37:23-24.
There's a difference in falling out of weakness and deliberately walking away from the LORD. God helps those who fall out of weakness. If He didn't, none of us would make it. But the Bible warns us plainly about departing from the living God and against sinning willfully. Hebrews contains many such warnings.
@@user-jy5qm8nc9m falling into sin is not departing from God. You depart from Him when you live after the flesh. For as it says in Titus Professing they know God but by their deeds they deny Him. Believing in Jesus means you follow Him. He is not going to force you to live (key word, live) after the Spirit or after the Flesh. Calvinism makes the commandments of God of no effect for when God's word says Fear God, Love God with all your heart, they would like you to believe it is God who will do it for you else you are "working" for salvation, which is not the case. If that were true, if i am working for my salvation if i confess my sins to God and obey what the Holy Spirit tells me, then there would be no need for Jesus to give us the warning "Let no man take thy crown". You see, Calvinism takes away the incentive to keep God's words thinking that God will keep it for you because of their denial of free will.
The issue I find most Christians have when I state I don't believe in osas, is that they think about a believer randomly loosing their salvation, due to sinning, backsliding etc, when that is not what I mean, for me and I believe many others who do not hold to the osas belief, we mean that one can reject their salvation, choose to walk away from it. Getting their names blotted out. They choose to simply walk away from the faith.
This is exactly how I see it. You cannot lose it as you never earned it, but you can reject it and walk away. Thanks so much for aptly saying what my mind was thinking
Agreed! You cannot lose something you could never earn to begin with. However you can reject a gift after it was given. Apostasy is walking away. But can you walk away from something you never walked with??? Like can you give away something you never recieved 🤔. I love listening to Leighton, but I don't think he did well on this or made anything less confusing.
OSAS adherents always seem to have trouble disassociating themselves from "leaving = losing." I'd like to see Dr. Flowers and Dr. Pritchett debate this topic.
WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST: We are redeemed (Gal 3:13) We are new creatures (2Cor 5:17) We are called to be saints (Rom 1:7) We are accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6) We have the forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7) We are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37) We are Ambassadors for Christ (2Cor 5:20) We are justified freely by his grace (Rom 3:24) We are the temple of the living God (2Cor 6:16) We have redemption through his blood (Eph 1:7) We have now received the atonement (Rom 5:11) We are free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) We are sons and heirs of God through Christ (Gal 4:7) We have been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18) We are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (2Cor 3:3) We are not our own, for we are bought with a price (1Cor 6:19-20) We are not far but now made nigh by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13) We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30) We can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth us (Php 4:13) We are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12) We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28) We are justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9) We are to endure hardness, as a good soldier of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Tim 2:3) We are to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Eph 3:9) We are presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his sight (Col 1:22) We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3) We are justified by his grace, and made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) We are to wait for the Lord Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10) We are confident that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it (Php 1:6) We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8) We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us (Gal 2:20) We are workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim 2:15) We are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God (1Cor 6:11) We are looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13) We are persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:38-39) We are justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Gal 2:16) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1Cor 15:57) And Ye Are Complete in Him (Col 2:10) Those who teach we can loose our Salvation are LIARS!!!!
The Bible says we are sealed until the day of the redemption of our bodies. If a person isn't saved, they're bodies will not be redeemed, so this is clearly teaching osas. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
No one knows for sure whether he is saved or not until the judgment. Because if one fails to persevere until the end (Matt 24:13), he will not be saved. That's why St. Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps, after I have preached to others, I myself should become a reprobate." St. Paul, an Apostle, was concerned about the possibility of losing his salvation, thus proving that 'Once Saved, Always Saved', 'Faith alone", or 'Predestined" is a complete lie from Hell, and that the salvation requires a great efforts on our part to truly live according to Our Lord's Commandments of Love and observing All He commanded as taught by His One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Matt 28:20), so that we may be transformed into the True Image and Likeness of Christ (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18); because, we are judged, not by Faith, but according to our deeds and works (Rev 20:13, 22:12. Matt 25:31-46), as only those who OBSERVE All the teachings and persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) are justified (Rom 2:13).
Seminary school, ( I call it Cemetary school) can sometimes ruin sincere individuals seeking the knowledge of Christ. There they are often taught the philosophy and doctrines of men. They often enroll in order to enter the ministry and sometimes come out unbelievers. God calls and makes preachers not seminary schools.
Don’t paint with too broad a brush. Some of us were called and went to great seminaries with gifted godly professors. Our experience deepened our knowledge of God and deepened our intimacy with Him. I used to say the same thing until God directed me to go deeper using seminary as a means to seek Him more.
Almost everyone has Scriptures that they think supports their stand, but oftentimes in doing so, they sweep under the carpet Scriptures that refute their stand, and actually prove something contradictory to what they're submitting. Flowers has done the same thing. He picks-out only the Scriptures that he thinks are supporting his stand on the subject, while ignoring so many other Scriptures that teach something different. I see this in so many churches - that is why there are so many different denominations as the [entire] Bible is not taken into account.
Gal. 5:4 says that those who depart from grace are severed/separated/cut off from Christ. Shame on anyone that would justify sin and deny the separation of those that do so.
I'm sorry but you're taking that to an extreme Granted there are some people that would use that as an excuse But not sincere Believers we are Absolutely confident in eternal security But Absolutely do not believe we can continue to live in sin and be chastened.
Because believing in it allows people to justify their behaviours doesn’t mean it is a dangerous doctrine. For example, if I use your doctrine as an example, people use the loss of salvation to think their works save them. I respect you and I think you have an authentic faith toward Christ, and I fully understand your point because I myself know a few people justifying their sins that way. And it brakes my heart to see this misconception of His sacrifice. At the end of the day, the message of the Gospel is so clear that if someone justify his flesh, it is a proof of the hardness of his heart. I therefore think that an authentic Christian won’t turn his back to Christ.
@olivierdel9567 that's the problem anytime I try to talk to a calvinist. I never Justified sin the Bible does not condone sin. But according to scripture I was crucified with Christ on the cross my sins were paid for past present and future at that time
Every time the topic of you can't lose your salvation comes up that's immediately what people like you want to swing to, people that believe you cannot lose your salvation never Advocate or condone sin but that seems to be your go-to, by the way none of us have stopped sinning including you, according to scripture I died to sin in Christ on the cross that's my identity spiritually even though I still live in this carnal man, I know how wretched I am to the core that's why I depend on the completed finished work of Christ and Christ alone, but you trust in whatever you decide to trust in
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12 12 ¶ Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END. Hebrews 3:12-14
The key words are any of you with an evil heart,, this means not having a NEW HEART, not being born again , a new heart IS NOT EVIL So if you are born again you do not have an evil heart anymore. It’s a new heart or Spirit , a new creature OSAS
Good word here, Bro Leighton. Just as when I've taken one of my three children, or now my grandson, across a busy street, their safety is never based on their grip on my hand. Though they may have a grip on my hand, their safety has always been based on my grip on their hand. From the moment of truly repenting and receiving Jesus by faith, we are safe in His hands. That is how we can praise Him. Otherwise, we will eventually "praise Him" with the view towards, and the thinking that, if I stop, He will stop. We fall into a "works out of fear" relationship. And I'm speaking of a saved individual. Falling "from grace" back into a "works out of fear" of losing Him. And that is never peace, or love, and no joy in Him. Thanks brother, ain't Jesus good. As He said, "It is finished".☝️
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. (Proverbs 3:10). It’s the whole duty of man, by keeping His commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Jesus said fear Him who can cast body and soul into hell (Luke 12:5). The apostles and even the early church fathers exhorted each other constantly to live in obedience and fear of God, which produces godly repentance, which grants access to unmerited grace for life (2 Corinthians 7:10) for those who love Him. In fact, fearing Him by keeping commandments in Ecclesiastes 12:13 is echoed by Christ in John 14:15 as love. It’s that fear that drives us to Him, and He welcomes us with open arms. It’s that fear of crossing the road that causes us to reach for the hand that He snatches us out of the fire with (Jude 23).
Leighton is not using the King James version..that is me just guessing..because he says that the English language has no perfect tense, but that is not correct..i think..John 3:16.. "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish"..the tense of the verb " believeth" is a future perfect tense..meaning that if a lost person prays asking Christ to come into his heart forever to stay..& if Christ answers.."yes, i will come into your heart forever to stay".. then his prayer & he as an individual has enterered into the ears & heart & blood of Christ forever..so..he has therefore experienced the perfect tense in English as he enters into Christ..& into eternity..a place where things never change..it was the faith of Christ that was perfect & unchangable & irrevocable..& the lost person is now in Christ, too..& is saved forever & has the eternal & everlasting life of Christ in His heart & spirit..Christ having brought his dead spirit to life forever with Himself within...that is why once saved is always saved & is also perfectly true.
YHWH works with convenants, they are agreements between Him and mankind. Like a marriage, there are things that both parties must do. In this case What He does far outweighs what we can ever do and He is perfect, and we are not....however, because of His great love and grace...he requires us to Love Him with our whole heart...He defines this as walking in His commandments, including accepting and putting our faith in his Son, Yeshua our Messiah. Faith without works is DEAD
That’s wonderfully concise. I appreciate you stating you are not a Calvinist. Somehow Calvinists, which I think is the worse of the doctrines, get credit for OSAS. OSAS is not a doctrine it is a person. Jesus! I have no trouble with the term OSAS. I think those against this term are anxious that people will use it as license. Let me break it to them: you are going to continue to sin whether you have a license or not. I don’t know anyone that thinks you can lose salvation like car keys. Why is that even a consideration? As I listen to this presentation I appreciate the calm of the speaker and his carefulness not to take verses out of context. When you are in the family of God in Christ you are eternally saved. Eternal is eternal. God isn’t like us. We throw people away and disown them. I think some Christians have higher standards than God. We are saved because of him. The inner man doesn’t continue to sin. It’s a bit of a mystery that is undone because of the sacrifice of Christ.
Finally! It’s nice to hear someone echo the same thing. We fight and divide over semantics, verbiage, wording., and phrases. I’ve been saying this for quite some time now. Thank you sir!
Jesus said, "Whoever believe in Me shall have rivers of living water bubbling up inside." Do you have that? If not, then you are not saved! Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshilohWhat a dumb statement. Did you read more than one page? You think like a charismatic, and they don't understand the Bible very much at all. Just look at that idiot Copeland.
@@kenshilohChristians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted. Mark 13:22 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Revelation 3:16 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@tomtemple69 John 7.38. Referring to the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, "Whoever believes in Me shall have rivers of living water bubbing up inside of him." Does it shock you, as it does me, that so many Christians seem to shrug their shoulders and say, "Whatever that means!" However, the contrapositive of this saying is, "If you do not have rivers of living water, neither do you believe in Christ." The Holy Spirit, Who is like rivers of living water, is essential to salvation! The sole criteria of whether someone makes it to heaven or not is if they know Christ. He died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
At the 7:18 mark said it all. Yes, one can walk away from Salvation. One can be saved (present tense) and choose to walk away from that salvation. To say that you cannot do so ignores Scriptures and turns the New Covenant into a one sided promise. Christ did not say, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth, at least at one point, in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Eternal Security is neither eternal nor secure until we die.
Finish the race, endurance until the end, unless God shortened the days , name can be blotted out of the book of life, Laodicean Church spewed out of. His mouth ! Sorry didn't agree with your ideas ! Where can I email you? 🙏
Dear Brother, what is the role of Satan then on truely saved Christians? 1 Peter 5:8. Luke 8:13? 1Thimothy6:10? Hebrew 3:12? Jude 1:5? 2 Peter 2:20? 1 Thimorhy 5:8? 1 Thimothy 5:12, 15? When the verses say the words as "faith or believe" in the scripture, why you people add 'genuine' before faith or believe?
Referring to Minute 32 - I just think that when he says "let them be cursed" in Galatians that's not the statement of simply correcting an error, that's a very strong statement of condemnation. He never says anything that strong even to the Corinthians. That sounds like he considered they were truly in danger of forfeiting their salvation and going from a place of being blessed to a place of being cursed. I just feel like those who believe in the perseverance of the saints minimize warning statements in Galatians and Hebrews. They make them less dire and or hypothetical.
We are saved by faith in Christ. So wee need to keep that salvific faith in Christ. Once a person renounces that faith, which is of course not very common, that person has no more salvation. Again, it's not about works; it's about faith, meaning if someone abandons their faith in Christ, then they are abandoning their salvation. But God is so merciful that even they may come back to reconciliation and eventually be saved. God bless.
What about "These things I write unto you so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal Life " If I RECEIVED/HAVE Eternal Life, then, by definition, it CANT end. If it EVER did, it couldn't have been eternal, could it? However, JESUS SAID IT WAS...No argument can be mounted against that.
@@davidhollingsworth864 Eternal life, by definition, is eternal, everlasting; that's not being argued against. So it's not about whether or not eternal life is eternal; it's about whether HAVING that eternal life is eternal or not. We don't have eternal life in and of ourselves. We have eternal life IN Christ. So we are to remain IN Christ by faith until we die in order to keep our salvation. There many verses that teach that life is found only in God, for instance, John 5:26, "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself,”. In conclusion, we see that God the Father and the Son of God have life in Themselves, but we as believers have life, not in ourselves, but in Christ Jesus.
@@VictorFelipe82 Don't use semantics to try to deny the essence of 1 John 5: 13-15...these things I write unto you so that you may KNOW that YOU HAVE eternal life...not that you would know that eternal MEANS eternal - that's LUDICROUS! I HAVE, I POSSESS, I HAVE OBTAINED God's GIFT which, again, by DEFINITION, means that it MUST endure forever; and that, after I have GENUINELY repented (which MUST occur BEFORE I can even TRULY receive salvation...), I have PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE! At that point, my going to Heaven is AUTOMATIC. My VERY REPENTANCE assures I will not go back into PRACTICING sin, the Holy Spirit then SEALS me and is the DOWN PAYMENT until the final Day, with God HIMSELF promising that "He that BEGAN a good work in you will PERFORM IT until the Day of Jesus Christ." The Bible is CLEAR - It is God WHO KEEPS US! The real MOTIVE of those who deny eternal security is ROOTED in our sinful flesh's DEMAND for a YARDSTICK to measure up to, so that Christ ALONE is denied the GLORY of saving them...After all, Lord, you couldn't have done it without my help...Yet, what did Jesus tell us? "Don't be afraid, ONLY believe."
We who believe abide in Christ, but it is also true that Christ also abides in us…. Because his Word abides in us Christ equipped his children with a Faith that will never Fail us
I have to say that I love your videos speaking out against Calvinism. However, I couldn't help but notice you use the same tactics Calvanist do to defend perseverance of the saints. First, take note that at about 7:10 in the video you try to say that you don't believe in perseverance of the saints in the same way as the Calvinist do. Then to justify that claim, you argue about how you do not believe in the other 4 points of Calvinism. It doesn't logically follow that your "perseverance of the saints" is the somehow different simply because you disagree with the other 4 points of Calvinism. In reality, you are a one point Calvinist, even if you don't see it. The only difference is that you reject the other four points, so it isn't that you reject Calvinism's version of the "P" in TULIP, you just believe that salvation is resistible, we are not all totally depraved without any ability to choose salvation, the atonment isn't limited, and election isn't unconditional. Denying the TULI is not evidence that your "P" is somehow different. That's okay if you really believe the "P" is true biblically, but you can't logically say you are not a 1-point Calvinist simply because the group of saints that can persevere is larger in your view. The "P" is not about the amount to saints that are persevering... The amount of saints has to do with the "T", "L" and the "U". The "P" is about how those saints cannot choose to be unsaved. It denies free will too, and I hope you'll see that. I've had the best success pulling people out of Calvinism by focusing on the "P" first. It is so easy to show it. Look at Rev 2:1-7. Was the pastor and church in Ephesus not saved? Then how are they about to lose their "candlestick" unless they repent? I have about dozen more examples to show that perseverance of the saints is unbiblical, but I would encourage you to have the same kind of open mind that allowed you to reject the "TULI" and look again at the "P" with fresh eyes. The second thing that made me cringe a little was your phrase "If saved, then saved eternally". That is 100% Calvinism. When we show biblical evidence that people can fall away, Calvinist come back by questioning their initial salvation... every... single... time. "Well they must have not actually been elect then..."... sound familiar? Again, Look at Rev 2:1-7... can we truly question the salvation experience of the church in Ephesus? It is recorded in Acts 19:1-6. They "WERE" saved, but still needed to repent or risk not having access to the tree of life. Read it and read it and read it until you see it. There is no "if saved", they were most definitely saved and still needed to repent because they left their first love. Again at 11:55, you say "even if they "seemingly" accepted the Gospel earlier in life". The use of the word "seemingly" means you are questioning their salvation experience, like Calvinist dismiss people that leave by saying they were never elect in the first place. So, you don't believe that people can actually leave their salvation once they have it... you simply believe that they never genuinely accepted the gospel in the first place. This is the same as Calvinism. You try to follow up again by arguing that it is somehow different from Calvinism, but you don't compare it to the "P" in Calvinism, you compare it to the "T, U, and L". You need to stop and thoughtfully compare your "if saved, saved eternally" idea to only the "P" in Calvinism's "TULIP" without bringing up the "T, U, L, or I". Just compare apples to apples, and you'll find it is exact the same. Edit: I hope that my tone doesn't sound hateful, or arrogant, or anything negative. I'm truly speaking from my heart. I love what you are doing, and I'm praying you considered these words with an open mind. I'm on your side.
@AVB2 God doesn't make mistakes, but we do, and there's no reason to forget any passage. There's a difference between you forsaking God and God forsaking you.
@AVB2 You've created a false dichotomy. We don't need 44 passages that claim that all humans affirmatively chose God. Instead, we can show that God has offered Himself as a choice, and demonstrate how people and even angels have historically not accepted that choice. Lucifer was in Heaven and yet chose to rebel. He was instantly cast out along with 1/3 of the angels. Heaven is as saved as we humans are ever going to get, and yet, Lucifer was there and then cast out. We know that God didn't forsake Lucifer because as you've aptly stated, God does do the forsaking. Therefore, Lucifer forsook God and Heaven by choosing rebellion instead of God. Adam and Eve did the exact same thing in the garden. They were in paradise. There was no evil, and no sin. It was God's will for them to live there forever, and it was God's will for them to not eat the forbidden fruit. However, they did eat that fruit because despite God's will, Adam and Eve wielded their own free will to reject God. They were cast out of Eden. God didn't forsake Adam and Eve, because there are 44 passages that says God doesn't do that, but yet they were separated. So, who did the forsaking? If we didn't have free-will, we couldn't have eaten the forbidden fruit, we couldn't have broken any of Moses's law, and we couldn't sin today. We choose sin with free will, or we choose God by repenting of our sins. If we didn't have free will, Lucifer would still be in Heaven and Adam would still be in Eden. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us what God's will is: 1. That none should perish. 2. That all should repent. Therefore, if anyone perishes, then they defied God's will with their own free will. Likewise, if anyone does not repent, then they defy God's will with their own free will. The only other option is to claim that God forces us to repent, and that no one is going to perish. We know that isn't true. Calvinist don't believe that no one is going to perish. No one does. So, either we have free will or we all go to Heaven according to 2 peter 3:9. Here are some other examples of saved people not choosing God later: Hebrews 6:1-6 Revelation 2:1-7 2 Peter 2:19-22
@AVB2 Foreknowledge does not negate free-will. Just because God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, does not mean that it was His will that they would sin. He told them His will. Do not eat of the fruit. They did. This is a common fallacy that I hear from Calvinist. You claim dead people can’t do things, but: Jesus was dead, and He did something. He rose from the dead by the power of the Spirit (Rom 1:4). And, we can also be raised from the dead by that same Spirit: (Rom 8:11). And how might we receive this Spirit? By repenting and being baptized. (Acts 2:38) You claim that a dead man can’t do anything, but they asked Peter what can we DO in Acts 2:37, and Peter said… repent and be baptized. The analogy is terrible to be honest. Keep creating false dichotomies and non sequiturs. It would be best if you stuck only to scripture… Sola scriptura. 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3-5) There is no glory in repentance. The issue is not glory as your analogy portrays. The issue is responsibility. Salvation is Gods work. God gets all the glory. Repentance is our responsibility, or we will perish. Not my words… that’s what Jesus said.
@31:10, "I don't see those categories of people in scripture." Hebrews 3:14 (and about 50 other verses like it) all warn you must hold your genuine faith until the end or risk being lost. There is simply no reason for Paul to give this warning (over and over and over again) unless he really thought it was possible for believers to walk away from their faith and pay the eternal consequences of it. I'm sticking with Michael Brown (and the apostle Paul) on this one.
If a perfectly created being like Satan can go against God - What more men with their sinful carnal bodies. Once Saved Always Saved is a device created by Satan to deceive the masses. Until you are glorified with a body like Christ, a body higher than of angels, only then you can say you are truly Saved. In the mean time BE ON YOUR GUARD - 1 Pet 5:8
Well I don't find that angels mind you 3rd heaven angels don't have free will. That's a lie from the pit of "Hell" No where in the bible does it say that angels are under the law of sin and death. The word angel can refer to people or actual celestial angels and people conflate the two mostly to support their doctrine of fallen angels
@@a-aron6724 - Hell is created for angels that committed sins. Sin already existed before the Law of sin and death was given to mankind. so, what is sin?
I do not like the phrase once saved always saved the more appropriate would be the Biblical word eternal security and yes we are guaranteed eternal security and scripture
Thank you for sharing this study it has been a blessing for me to hear and receive more clarity on the topic of salvation. It truly means a lot and I appreciate your heart and humility. God bless you!
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted. Mark 13:22 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Revelation 3:16 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I always admire your graciousness and clarity. I’d love to see you chat with Trent Horn one day. You are both bright and irenic and full of the love of Christ. Peace!
You cannot lose salvation. Sound doctrine. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:-1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.-Isaiah 55:3 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.-Isaiah 55:13 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.-Acts 13:34 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.-Acts 13:38-39 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.-John 6:35-40 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.-John 20:29 Believe on Him and love one another. Do unto others as you have them do unto you. As you sow so shall you reap in this life and the next. The law is established by grace and made void by the precepts of men that deny His testimonies of tender mercy. But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.-Mathew 21:28-31 Let your yes be a yes and your no a no. Dead faith is simply cold. They have done what is their duty to do. Hot faith is perfected by works and the lukewarm is the first son who denies Him and His testimony and so He denies them by spitting them out of His mouth. He never knew them. The will of the Father is that He should lose nothing. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-John 3:16 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,-Hebrews 13:20
@@fredarroyo7429 Once God blots you out that’s it. There is no reproving a reprobate mind it is then impossible to for them to be restored to repentance which is to turn from the power of sin to the power of God. Blessed are they who do hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled. And Jesus said I am the bread of life he believes on Me shall never hunger and never thirst. That’s Christ teaching imputed righteousness and that never runs out.
I don't understand this argument that once saved always saved means Calvinism. I reject Calvinism predestination/pre-election, but I embrace the fact of being born again/saved from death by grace through faith. But, unto good works. Faith saves. But faith saves you unto something. Future good works/growth in right living.
OSAS can mean either Calvinism or Free Grace. Calvinism teaches OSAS because God will (supposedly) guarantee that you will never fall away. God keeps you. And if you do fall away, then Calvin would say that you were never saved in the first place. How convenient, huh. Calvinism clings to OSAS by saying that someone who was saved and then fell away was never saved to begin with. Free Grace folks teach OSAS also but not because God forces you to be saved and stay saved. They teach that once you get saved, nothing can ever change the fact that you were declared to have eternal life when you believed on Jesus. They teach you can live in deliberate sin, be a child of the devil, and completely reject God and Jesus after salvation and you will still have eternal life. In other words, they have noodles for brains!
He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard. Col 1:22-23.
Dear Dr. Flowers, For Biblical reference to the third category that you you don't see mentioned in Scripture, let me point you to 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" To say that these people whom the Spirit is expressly talking about as "backslidden" is incorrect as backslidden and "depart from the faith" are two very different things. To say that those whom the Spirit is speaking of were "never saved" is also incorrect as you cannot depart from something that you have never been a part of.
A lot of people like to gloss over this or try to explain it away as meaning something else but when they do that, they are, in effect, calling the Holy Spirit a liar.
The reality is that the audience of the 4 gospels and the book of Hebrews is completely Jewish in nature. The audience of the epistles of Paul is the body of Christ in this present age of grace. The epistles of Paul talk about an assurance of a present salvation that is sealed upon faith that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again on the third day (1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 2:8-9). It talks about assurance of salvation and salvation as a transaction rather than a process in Romans 8:38-39, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30 and other places. The Hebrew epistles speak of salvation as something future, to attain through endurance til the end. We must simply rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15) and divide God's prophecy program from his mystery program. The body of Christ (God's mystery program) is not the nation of Israel (God's prophecy program). The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel. God made clear earthly promises to the nation of Israel that he will keep and fulfill when the times of refreshing have come (yet future).
Fatally mistaken in one respect. This is a very gracious and well-defended presentation as usual by Mr. Flowers. I do Respectfully disagree in one aspect that I think is critical. A true believing Christian can stop believing, but that Christian will not lose his salvation. Ultimately, it is the faithfulness of God that will keep that Christian saved, not the Christian’s faithfulness or continued belief that will keep himself saved. See 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 2:13. This is an important, practical, destiny distinction, because it is only the person who has abandoned ALL faith in himself for his salvation and placed it in Christ that is saved. Romans 4:4-5 NKJV [4] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. [5] But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (emphasis supplied) I am not suggesting antinomianism. A Christian SHOULD always be striving to become more like his Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 6:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-10. But ultimately it is the unbreakable promise of God that we should be relying upon, rather than our continued faithfulness or belief, for our salvation. See John 5:24; 6:35; 6:39-40; 6:47: 10:28-29; 14:27-28; Romans 4:16; 5:8-11; 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 4:30; 1 Peter 1:4-5.
You’re under the impression that we work in order to be saved. OSAS believers are mistaken in this as well. We don’t work to be saved We work because we are saved We work as proof we are saved
@@MarkNOTW OSAS believers are under the impression that those that don’t subscribe to OSAS think that we are able to receive salvation because of our works. That is not at all the case. We are saved through faith in Christ. Christ is first and foremost. You can’t attain salvation through works without faith. But faith and works are both required. As the word says FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
Sad to see Dr. Flowers support such a false idea about salvation. He mentions Paul's address to the Galatians and maintains that the believers in the churches of Galatia could fall from grace and still be saved. So what he is saying is that you can add works of the law to your faith (which is why Paul said they would fall from grace), and still be saved. Paul makes it abundantly clear that no one will be saved by works of the law. Dr. Flowers does not mention the other issue in Gal 5:1-4 that if you go back to keeping the law, you will be alienated from Christ. If you are alienated from Christ, you are no longer IN Christ. In Col 1:21-23, Paul tells the believers in Colosse that they were once alienated from Christ until God reconciled them and will present them holy and blameless before Him if they continue in their faith. So how can the Galatians who were in Christ, become alienated from Christ and yet still be saved when they have returned to the state (alienated) that they were before coming to Christ? There are two separate paths to leaving your faith. One is by going back to the law and trying to be justified by it and the other is by going back to a life of sin. In one single chapter of Galatians (ch 5), Paul shows the end result of doing either of those. We have already looked at verses 1-4 about adding works of the law. The other way is mentioned in verses 19-21. If you go back to living a life of sin (of which Paul mentions a whole host of), you will not inherit the kingdom of God. I think Jesus meant it when he said that if you endure to the end, you will be saved.
The implication here, from what your stating, is that, once saved, one never sins again. I hope that's not what you're saying, because I would postulate the notion that neither you, nor I, make it thru a single day of our lives without sinning somehow, someway.
@@gregpierce9800 Don't know why I didn't get an email notification of your reply, but I just happened to come across it now. I am not at all stating that one never sins again once saved. That is not what Paul is saying either. He states that those who LIVE like this (in acts of the sinful nature) will not see the kingdom. Hebrews makes it crystal clear be referring to those who "deliberately keep on sinning." If you deliberately keep on sinning, you are not repenting or trying to overcome the sin.
You can deny Jesus even when you undoubtedly know the fullness of Jesus as Messiah. Peter witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus in all His glory, and not too long after denied Jesus three times. People all too often underestimate the illogical nature of man. There are times when people just don't make any sense at all. Only God truly knows how to discern any man, and for anyone other than God to say to certain Christians they were never really saved is to speak without any wisdom or understanding, like parrots who think they're Christians
@AVB2 true, and no disagreements to any of the Scripture you given. And it is also true that it is God who chooses us, but that doesn't mean we do not choose God also. Us choosing God does not negate God choosing us, rather the emphasis is on God choosing us. Though God is the one with all the authority, that doesn't mean that we are no longer responsible for what we do, or that we don't have a say so in the matter as a child of God. As much as this would seem improbable, love would cease to be love if love was forced on us. As much as God's love was not forced on Adam and Eve in their choice to sin, God also does not force His love on us. Do you have any rebellious teenage children turning into adults? What happens when you force your love on them? You realize way too quickly that your love that you force on your children is not love anymore
Interesting. I was initially hesitant when I saw this come up because I thought I would disagree more (since I’m more of the free grace view) but I pretty much agree. There are small differences I would have, such as I don’t think people remain justified due to God’s provision, but instead, Gods faithfulness. But I’m not sure the distinction is all that significant. Anyways, good take on this.
Hebrews 6:4-8 states clearly that if someone who has "shared in the Holy Spirit" falls away, not only are they no longer saved, but they can't be brought back to repentance. It seems to me apostasy after being with the Holy Spirit is not only possible, but also permanent. There is a lot of eisegesis concerning that chapter of the Bible, but it clearly states that people indwelt with the Holy Spirit can fall away, and can not again be brought to repentance. So yes, there is a category 3, clearly supported by the Bible.
We have to be careful not to always take English translations at face value, but to investigate the true meaning. Because this one verse can’t possibly undo all the other verses in seemingly contradiction to it. God always forgives those who confess and repent and He always implores us to turn back to Him. The verb in this passage is a present particle. Meaning while it is ongoing. But also, you really have to think about what actually is “falling away”. To some that is drinking one sip of beer, or one sin, or maybe going through a 6 month period of bad decisions. But what would constitute as true falling away. And at any point anyone can change their minds or be brought back to repentance. I know without a doubt if someone prays and asks forgiveness from God with a true repentant heart, He will not cast out. And remember, with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. I would never treat anyone as a lost cause and I don’t think anyone should treat themselves as a lost cause either. It’s His will that none should perish but all come to repentance. My sister has “left church”, but it is God’s will for her to come back to Him- rather than live in unrepentant sin. It couldn’t possibly be that God would turn her away if she came back to Him. That’s just not what the whole counsel of God teaches. I don’t say any of this to argue, but to spread the message of hope for anyone who thinks they are without hope. And if you feel you are without hope please keep digging into this. He is always found by those who seek Him.
@@ericashepherd9777 Hey, I'm just pointing out what Scripture actually says, not what we would like it to say. And you are correct; Scripture must gel, and so while Hebrews 6:4-8 must gel with all the other verses, all the other verses must also gel with this verse. And let's be frank here; the subject of assured salvation is full of eisegisis. Every time I see someone try to support this concept with Scripture I see them string along multiple verses that do not explicitly state that salvation is assured, but rather support that interpretation if one were to come up with the idea outside of Scripture.
@@ericashepherd9777 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”- 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” Mark - 3:28-30 Im sure yall will just say it means something else, but it explains what Edward is saying. So no one verse doesnt undo anything. You just dont understand what falling away is. Backsliding is not the same thing. Falling away is knowing the Holy Spirit and then deciding you dont want to follow Jesus. Its a willful action that you are completely aware of. Its not something you do by accident. You do what satan did when you fall away.
Yea I just read Hebrews 6:4-8 again.... yea for me I think that's pretty hard to argue against. But we don't always know who's really tasted the fruits of the spirit, and who's stll on their way there (except for ourselves... I hope).
@@mastershake4641 Exactly. And we have to be careful not to take the bait and switch here. The verse about tasting the spirit and falling away is not the most important part of that passage. It is the part where it says one cannot be brought back to repentance because Jesus cannot be crucified again. This 100% gels with Jesus' comment about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Luke 12:10, another verse where I hear a lot of pretty interpretations that seem to amount to eisegesis. And to be sure, I'm not suggesting the Catholics and Orthodox are 100% right about this; rather I'm suggesting the Bible says things, and we should not try to make it fit our interpretation, but rather adjust our interpretation to fit what the Bible actually says. Those other individuals are great at guiding us, but they were all flawed human beings as well.
I find the Arminian perspective is much more in line with Apostolic teachings in that salvation is a process not a free meal ticket into the kingdom of God. David Pawson points out that modern theology presents a half baked gospel that does not produce maturity within the believer and that there is a lack of a Holy fear of God to stop sinning. Within the Scriptures, Salvation is seen as Past, Present and Future, all Salvation, God’s Grace and Eternal security passages of Scripture is seen in context with adjectives of conditions that are required for entry to the kingdom of God. There are no short cuts without showing the works of your faith. The Seven Churches in Revelation are judged according to their works not because they asked for a ticket.
This way of looking at it makes a lot more sense to me. The tricky part for anyone who believes that the future is settled form God's perspective is that God would be relating to a person who is on the road to salvation but will ultimately fall away as though he were a child of God even though He knows that in the end that individual will reject Him. If on the other hand you believe that the future is in part open even to God, then there is no conflict.
Cris Jones submission is a word that is not preached about these days and the lack of fear of God’s wrath on those who rebel against His commandments is something we need to be reminded of. The Early Christians recited the Lord’s Prayer to remind us to keep in step with God’s will.
I believe that being backslidden is the same as one who was once saved and now lost. Paul himself warned about being a castaway. He talked about those who had made shipwreck of their faith. Demas departed having loved this present world. There are so many places in the scriptures that describe those who have once walked with Christ and went away. Here in the area that we live in there are those who believe that all you have to do to be saved is make a one time profession of faith and then you can just carry on with life living basically like an unbeliever but you will of course ultimately be saved. I just can’t see this. I’m afraid that there will be many people who are eternally lost because they believed that they could not be lost 😢
Even Calvinists own T.U.L.I.P. contradicts itself - IF Faith cannot come before regeneration or it is considered a WORK then how can Persevering not also be a WORK? All their complications to try to explain things, their twisting the meaning of simply clear scripture verses - redefining the meanings of specific words like 'elect' & 'predestination' & who is elect or predestined for what . . . makes my brain hurt to try to think that hard. God bless your ministry, Leighton!!!
With the utmost respect, those of you making the argument that people “leave the faith” and “fall away” while quoting verses which reflect these things aren’t contending with my conclusions. I’m not denying that there are people who once claimed to believe in Jesus who stop claiming to believe in Jesus, or who deny Him altogether (ie leave the faith/fall away, etc). I’m explaining that all those people must fit into one of 3 categories and not one of us know which of the three they are in. I have concluded that 2 of the categories sufficiently reconcile the biblical passages regarding “apostates.” Others theologians conclude that there are 3 categories, which is understandable. But for all practical purposes adding the third is irrelevant when it comes to how we treat the person in their unbelief. It’s purely speculative. The ONLY difference is semantical within the back room talk of theologians in how we define justification (forensically from the divine eternal perspective, or temporally from our perspective...ie the fruit vs the root). So...If Derek abandons the faith he is either lost or backslidden, and we can’t know which. Those are the only 2 options. Whether or not he was really once justified in the eyes of God or not is pure speculation on our part and makes no difference in how we should approach Derek in his rebellion. The difference is semantical (ie how you define your terms).
Fair enough. Since your conclusions were on the practical side of things, it's true that most christians will treat Derek the same regardless of whether or not they're Calvinists, Arminians (OSAS or not), Provisionists (OSAS or not). But just like you focus on the theological side of things when it comes to Calvinism (You often deplore the fact that Calvinists only see 2 options where there may be more), so too, some people here are simply having a backroom talk on the theological side of this issue (deploring that OSAS only see 2 options where there may be more), but I don't think anybody here disagree with your conclusions on the practical side. That's why nobody is contending with them.
Dear Dr Flowers, The point is that even if we define justification forensically from the divine eternal perspective, still God provides warnings for His people; and warnings are given when there is a potential risk (not from the side of God, but the believer’s). We know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8.1). They are the “potential” ones who “can” abandon their faith, because their ability to depart from faith is not removed by God’s justifying declaration. My problem with your view is: how can false Christians or unsaved people apostatize if they don’t have true faith, they are not in Christ? With Love in Christ.
@@ht5869 I honestly think it boils down to God's foreknowledge. Yes, I think it's our responsibility to keep the faith but I also think that genuine faith is not fleeting and that God knows if it's genuine and if it's genuine the Holy Spirit seals us and Jesus will never lose any of his sheep. So I think the key to understanding this is the foreknowledge of God which is from the end to the beginning and out of time, He is in the past and the future at the same time. He knows our heart and He knows what we will do because He has already lived with us in eternity future and He knows our thoughts and intentions. He seals and predestines those He foreknows and those He predestines he also calls, justifies and will glorify. At the end of the day, we need to live out our faith and persevere in the face of trials because that is what we are called to do. And of course, foreknowledge is not causation. He pursues us before salvation and he sustains us with His Spirit when we are saved but He doesn't cause us to believe or to keep the faith because that's up to us. But, again, genuine faith endures and He knows our hearts.
@@Franci0242 Thank you my brother. I understand your point of view. However, if God's foreknowledge does not cause - as I also believe it, then it means a true believer has an actual possibility of departing from faith. (When I say true believer I mean a wholehearted person who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit.) From God's perspective, it seems natural that God provides warnings on a potential risk a true believer may have still on earth, even if that risk is minimal. Then, those warnings are, in fact, one of the ways how God cares about His children, as God warned Adam and Eve in Garden of Eden... understanding it otherwise, it seems totally inconsistent. It would be like adopting the Calvinistic view of unconditional election, bit instead of having it before the foundation of the world, we would locate it at the time of justification. Love in Christ.
Way to many warnings of falling away and blotted out disqualified, to many about being found unworthy or broken off and cast into Fire... I can’t turn more than a couple pages without warnings to remain in Christ
Dr. Flowers mentions the three categories: 1) once saved, now lost 2) backslidden and 3) never saved. He then states that he believes that only categories 2 and 3 can a person be an apostate. I think he has it exactly backwards. You can only be an apostate if you once believed but no longer do (once saved, now lost). You cannot apostatize from a faith you never had (never saved). Merriam Webster defines apostasy as: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION That cannot apply to an unbeliever (one who was never saved). Nor can apostasy apply to one who is merely backslidden. Though he may be producing wood, hay, and straw, his works will be burned up but he will still be saved (1 Cor 3:15). Such a one has not apostatized but is a carnal Christian. Only the person who is saved and then defects from the faith and is then lost can be considered apostate. He has abandoned his faith.
@@Robert-xp4bn My guess is that you have a very superficial understanding of scripture. OSAS is a completely unscriptural doctrine created by man. I guess I could say that you are living proof of that. You claim to have been a believer but are no more! You say, "Your beliefs, your will, your thoughts , your religion determines exactly ZERO about eternity." Even a cursory reading of the bible will reveal that God holds man accountable for his beliefs and actions. Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct when you refer to man's mind as "unintelligent, emotional, fickle, feeble, frightened, (and) fleshly." Even if all of that were true, God has provided us with everything we need to come to faith in Christ and to live a life pleasing to him. He does not leave us incapable of responding to him. He draws us to himself, provides for the forgiveness of sins through Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross, requires no works of the law to be fulfilled but only faith in what Christ has done for us, and has placed the Holy Spirit within us to empower us to live for him. He has made it very simple. As the writer to the Hebrews puts it: "how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?" You seem to have a fatalistic view of scripture. I find scripture as profoundly inspiring, comforting, and encouraging.
Interesting. Robert, then, is apostate. Very interesting analysis. Robert is glad he chose to rebel. One has to ask, how genuine, was his professed belief. To know something for a certainty, then say, well that's not true, how certain was he?
I really appreciate your videos - they have helped me to have an intellectual response to Calvinism. Thank you so much! I know it was just an illustration, but have you ever considered investigating flat earth ? True science and the Scriptures actually reveal through sound evidence a planar non rotating earth with a dome covering above. There seems to be an awakening to this, and other truths. We need to be people of truth and love.
So if a guy gets on a plane and flies straight east long enough, he gets back to his starting point after going around the whole globe. How does that work on a flat surface with a dome covering?
I used to be a once saved always saved girl myself. Until the Lord convicted me and washed me from a lifestyle of sin. A once Born Again child of God gloriously filled with the spirit I fell back into sin and for 5 years was blindly living a life of sin all the while thinking that I was a child of God. I even went to church in this condition and once convicted it took me a YEAR for my eyes to fully be open to the height that I had fallen from. The spirit of God began to minister to me and I began to see just exactly what had happened and why. This once saved always saved Doctrine was nothing more than a license to sin and live in it without conviction because the light had been removed and the spirit was absent! I was blinded once again in sin just as if I had never been saved... but I thought I was saved. as the spirit of God began to minister more and more I went to him in prayer and I said you have shown me the truth now show me what I can do. so here I am. John 15 1-10Jesus clearly states that if a man remains in him bearing fruit then shall he be my disciples. He States every branch in me that bears no fruit is taken away and burned. He did not say once connected always connected there's a contingency based upon remaining in him. Remaining in the Vine. The problem that occurs is that folks do not remain in the Vine. When they don't remain in the Vine they do not produce fruits unto repentance scripture is clear that father God will cut it down and it is to be burned. This is parallel to what Paul spoke of in Hebrews chapter 6 and verse 8 in that which Bears thorns and Briars is rejected near to cursing whose end is to be burned. 2 Peter 2 amplifies this ..vs 20 for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled and overcome the latter end is worse for them than the beginning for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness then after they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them but this is happened unto them according to the true proverb the dog is turned again to his own vomit and the sow has returned to her wallowing in the mud. Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die" Folks have been bamboozled by the once saved always saved lie. It's the same lie that Satan presented to Eve in the Garden of Eden. It's the same old tactic with a different label. Genesis 3:4 and the serpent said to the woman YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE for God does know that in the day that you eat thereof then your eyes shall be opened and you shall be as Gods knowing Good and Evil. In the same way this false Doctrine teaches sins are forgiven past present and future...it teaches no need for repentance or self-examination why, you are above sinning...past present and future sin is abolished. You've already received your crown!! Live as you like..when scripture is very clear from Isaiah 59 that sin is the number one thing that SEPARATES us from God. it neglects the fact that we need to have a clean conscience before God. It denies that we have to be ready waiting and watching for the Master's return. Ready waiting and watching requires self-examination and a repentant heart before the throne of grace. if you're once saved always saved you have no need to walk in holiness and without it the Bible says None will see the Lord. Once saved always saved is a cloak for sin when the Bible says to submit ourselves and humble ourselves and to crucify our flesh. Once once saved always saved is quite possibly one of the largest deceptions and contributors to the great Falling Away spoken of in second Thessalonians 2 and 1st Timothy chapter 4. While it promises comfort and eternal security it is a false security and a very deceptive slippery slope AWAY from Christ and OUTSIDE of the vine to those who wrap themselves in it. You have no need of Him any longer! You've believed the lie! Jude explained this deseptive doctrine to perfection..For certain people have crept in unnoticed [just as if they were sneaking in by a side door]. They are ungodly persons whose condemnation was predicted long ago, for they distort the grace of our God into decadence and immoral freedom [viewing it as an opportunity to do whatever they want], and deny and disown our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you are fully informed once for all, that [e]the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe [who refused to trust and obey and rely on Him This Doctrine portrays only the love of God and it neglects the Holiness of God. God has not nor will he ever change for he has said I am the Lord I change not. One is either born again or they are not. They either have the spirit of God or they do not. if they are born again then they will not remain in their sin or continue in a lifestyle of sin and still have the Holy Spirit for the scriptures are very clear that it is sin that separates us from God. A child of God will not run around and Tout that they are above falling, they fear God, humble themselves understanding that he REQUIRES abiding in him, faithful service and a commited life to overcoming the World the Flesh and the devil just as Christ did but also knowing and Remembering The Words of Christ that any man putting his hand to the plow and then turn back is not fit for the kingdom of God. They begin to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling just as Paul said. They walk in daily communion and obedience to the savior. it's my prayer that anyone reading this would carefully consider through the lens of scripture where they stand. That they would examine the scriptures for themselves and let the spirit of God teach them and direct them and guide them into all truth. Jesus says straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few are found therein. once saved always saved is a very welcomed and famously preached Doctrine by many respected pastors but if you could have a bird's eye view into the throne room where they stand and give an account for what they have taught in error I'm sure one would shutter in fear... Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.. 1 Peter 5:8
Hello i dont have any side of this argument because I'm still questioning it . I'm here to ask questions only . So for me both exist in the bible like osas has theirs and those who dont believe in osas has theirs . So basically from what i understand you can never lose your salvation but can forfeit it . I want to know your opinion on this statement sis. I once have a question on an osas believer and what he's been saying is making me confused . He said yes we have a choice but you cannot lose your salvation either you never had it because you lose your faith .
When i first hear of this doctrine i have thought the same things. This could be a dangerous thing if didnt explained in a deeper way and this person im talking about just say to people that once save always save nothing else just that . And in my mind it could be dangerous .
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Eternal security of the born again believer is not an "opinion", it's called.... wait for it... The Gospel.
@Felix Mitchell forgive me but may have come off a little like a smart-ass I did not mean anything personally but Calvinism and Lordship Salvation almost ruined my life... and I'm very passionate about the free Grace position.. I interpret Matthew 7 as speaking to false prophets who are presenting their works to God.. notice none of them said that we believed on you for eternal life they just we're giving there resume of works and it goes on to say that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit Nor that good tree can produce bad fruit so if to think that the fruits they're referring to are the fruits of the spirit then they wouldn't be wolves in sheep's clothing they would look fine on the outside and it would be teaching sinless perfection.... the fruit is the message they speak if they speak a false message as a prophet ,they are a bad tree .. Joseph Smith Taze Russell...etc Once I understood it as that.. it made it so simple...Much Love ,Andy
@Felix Mitchell John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.... all of the other passages are referring to Eternal Rewards, salvation from temporal judgment, or taking part in the millennial Kingdom,, I don't understand it all but I believe that Jesus Christ paid it all and when I stand before him nothing I will bring only to the cross I will cling
*Felix* Is your mom still alive? If not, when she *WAS* living, would it have been possible to get *UNBORN* from her regardless how you may have treated her? Clearly, if a person loves his/her mother as they should, there would be no *DESIRE* to mistreat her, correct? Well Jesus said "Ye must be born again", not again & again & again. In the same way you can't get *UNBORN* from God is the same as to your mother.
The Parable of the Sower strongly implies that it is possible to lose salvation by falling away, as do passages in Hebrews and 2 Peter. That said, it is definitely possible to return to faith and have salvation restored. C.S. Lewis is a prime example of this: he was a believer until his teens, then became an atheist for almost two decades before returning first to theism and ultimately to Christianity. Had Lewis died while he was an atheist (which nearly happened when he fought in World War 1), it's unlikely he would have been saved.
I have a friendly challenge for you if you haven't already read this book it's called Must Faith Endure for Salvation to Be Sure? by Thomas L. Stegall, it's kinda long but it's an enjoyable read or just get an audio book of it, highly recommend to at the least understand the other sides arguments, God bless.
If you can have salvation where Christ knows you and you know Christ, and then you lose that salvation…. How then can Christ Declare to those people “I NEVER Knew You” His Love can Never Fail, and the Faith he gave us will also never Fail
@@malcolm716 That's not what's happening there at all. You're mistakenly assuming that there is only one kind of lost people when there are actually two kinds. The first, those Christ is declaring that He "never knew" are those who were faking their beliefs the entire time. The second are apostates, who genuinely knew Christ at some point in their lives but chose to turn away from Him and stop believing. The first group is what is represented by the first soil in the Parable of the Sower. The second group is represented by the second and third soils. God doesn't "gr@pe" people spiritually, either for their entire existence as Calvinists believe or after they believe, as OSAS-ers believe. While He will never end the relationship on His end, He respects the free choice of the sinner to remain in Him and be saved or to abandon Him and be condemned.
@@DamonNomad82 I understand your thoughts on the Two Groups…. One Group never really Believed they faked it, and the other group did have Faith but abandoned it My Question is referring to the group you claim knew Christ at one point and Christ knew them at one point. If that group at one point had Faith, but abandoned their Faith down the line, how can Christ say to them “I NEVER knew you”?
@@malcolm716 I answered your question in my first reply. Jesus WASN'T saying "I never knew you" to those who once believed and had fallen away. He WAS saying that to those who had never believed in Him to begin with.
There are scriptures that seem to truly and clearly state both positions...after 51 years of considering this issue I can only state that I'm 90% sure salvation can be lost and 10% hopeful that it can't be lost.... everyone it seems would be hopeful that osas is the truth....yet I think not is more likely that salvation can be lost through not ensuring to the end ... Hebrews 12:12-17 is a compelling
I appreciate the non-divisive tone. I commend how Dr. Leighton approaches this topic. Regarding whether all Scriptures fit into the last two categories (vs. the first), the apostle Paul believed it was quite possible that someone who is truly standing by faith could nevertheless leave the faith and consequently be cut off for leaving the faith (just as someone without faith could later come into faith and be grafted in). One clear example of this is Romans 11:17-24. It helps to read it in context in an older translation that uses thou/thee for singular-you vs. you/ye for plural-you (e.g. ASV or KJV). Elsewhere in the chapter he is talking to his audience in the plural as a group, but here he is choosing to shift to addressing people as individuals who individually stand by faith currently and yet who would be cut off, if an individual does not continue in (or remain upon, epimeno) the faith. He isn't saying their faith is not real or they are not truly grafted in. It is authentic -- provided only that they continue. He also is clearly not saying they will still be saved even if they leave the faith. It is the first circle category in Dr. Leighton's three categories. That epimeno (meno = abide/stay/remain/continue, epi = upon) term by Paul is related to the meno (abide, stay, remain) term used in John 15:1-10 about those who do or do not remain in the vine of Christ. Same implications. The concern is not over those who never were connected to the vine. They just need to remain there. Nor is this about being saved, though as through fire, even if you don't remain. You see the same concern in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. He has no fear that they are not truly believers. He has a real fear that the persecution they faced might have caused them to leave the faith. He is clearly not saying they would be saved anyway, and he is not saying their acceptance of the message wasn't real, genuine, authentic. It is only if they left the faith that Paul's missionary work there would have been rendered in vain. His fear is that they would become as the seed sown in the rocky soil in the parable by Jesus of the four soils. Jesus doesn't assume that real faith always includes perseverance. On the contrary, all three synoptic Gospels indicate their faith was real for a time and it did really grow, but it was temporary. They later fell away. The account in Luke 8 explicitly distinguishes the fourth soil as having endurance or perseverance. The apostle Peter, who heard the teaching of Jesus, writes in 2 Peter 1 about how our faith needs to have other qualities added to it, including adding endurance/perseverance as a distinct quality alongside other distinct qualities that all need to be added to one's faith (eg 1:5-7). Notice that he commands his audience to make every effort to add these qualities to faith. It is the same Greek word for perseverance/endurance as is used in Luke's account of the fourth soil in the parable of the soils. So Jesus and Peter did not suppose that faith and endurance/perseverance are automatically the same thing. Neither did Paul. Paul's Galatians letter as a whole is another example. Read the whole letter to see his consistent tone. He never suggests that their faith was not authentic, not genuinely of the Spirit, not the kind of real faith through which grace comes. They were running well. They need to stand firm in what they have. At the same time, he gives them no reason to think that if they leave the gospel of salvation by grace through faith and seek circumcision and salvation through works that they will be saved anyway. If the true believers did that, that would sever them from Christ. Christ would then be of no benefit to them. They will have fallen from grace. As with Romans 11 and 1 Thessalonians, notice the choice of his words that indicate the danger of a loss of a former good state (e.g. Gal. 5:1-4). His concern is about the possibility of desertion, of being turncoats (Gal 1:6, "3. passive or (more commonly) middle, to transfer oneself or suffer oneself to be transferred, i. e. to go or pass over ... to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another, Galatians 1:6 (cf. 2 Macc. 7:24; Polybius 5, 111, 8; 26, 2, 6; Diodorus 11, 4; (ὁ μεταθεμενος, turncoat, (Diogenes Laërtius 7, 166 cf. 37; Athen. 7, 281 d.)). Once a person sees Paul's repeated concern about believers possibly leaving the faith, one finds other examples in more of his letters about how salvation is conditional on remaining in the faith, holding on to the faith, and so on (e.g. 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Col. 1:21-23). He never assumes that starting in a real faith automatically means perseverance. Nor does he assume that falling away indicates that someone's beginning in faith was not genuine. If it were not genuine, then merely holding on to something that was ineffectual would not save. It would be false hope. Even when concerned, Paul urged people to hold on to the faith they already had as a valid means for grace -- provided they were not moved away from it by deception, persecution, or tribulation as some rocky-soil believers would be. It is because the apostle Paul does not believe that P (as in TULIP) is guaranteed in all who have faith that I knew early on that I could not reconcile Paul with Calvinism. Now, I'm also very appreciative of the work of Dr. Leighton and others to more fully explain how Calvinism (following late-stage Augustine) departs from the earliest three centuries of Christian belief. Thank you very much!
@@rosstemple7617 Look him up. He's a well known jewish christian scholar. He rejects Calvinism, but he's a personal friend of James White. And on this specific issue, he doesn't believe in OSAS.
History of OSAS beliefs is as follows... 1st/2nd century Gnostics develop a doctrine in which the predetermined "elect" are unconditionally elected to salvation. Gnostics believed that man's salvation is based on knowledge apart from any moral code by which he ascends; therefore under no circumstances can one of the elect be lost. The early church writings are replete with warnings refuting the false doctrines of the Gnostics. Fast forward and it is Augustine the "ex" Manichean who develops what would become the TULIP of Calvinism while writing against the Pelagians (check out Ken Wilson also featured on Soteriology 101). This is where a form of OSAS found its way into the church but was not embraced by the Catholic church. Finally the Reformers brought back Augustinianism in a big way and OSAS was back on the map. I find it curious that non-Calvinists would be so eager to embrace a doctrine that was built on the denial of freewill. Moreover it ignores Christ's teachings on the matter while adhering to a doctrine that originated with heretics.
@@abideintheWord I love your channel man! I watched your video about this video. Dr. Flowers is such a great man and he destroy so good calvinism, but It is so sad that he accepts the "P". It is really bothering to see the comment section full with the free-grace dispensationalists. If Flower rebuked OSAS they wouldn't be able to effectively spread their lies, but now they are able to deceive some babe in Christ.
I don't understand this argument that once saved always saved means Calvinism or ancient Gnosticism influence regarding predestination and pre-election. I reject the Calvinism/Gnosticism concepts of predestination/pre-election, but I embrace the fact of being born again/saved from death by grace through faith. But, unto good works. Faith saves. But faith saves you unto something. Future good works/growth in right living. The origin of my belief in once saved always saved is not in some ancient Gnostic invention, but rather directly from the scriptures that predate those beliefs where it says that we are to believe upon the name of the Son of God in order to be saved, and that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. But that we are saved unto good works.
Brother Leighton, thank you for your kind and Christ like approach to this topic. I have immense respect for both you and Brown, but I find it difficult to to find those who will present the topic with grace. I personally had an experience that led me to search this subject out, and am compelled to avoid apostasy with every fiber of my being.
30:56 You don't see in Scripture the people who once had a relationship with God that later rejected Him? (read until the end) 1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will Abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Tim 6:20 Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have Departed from the faith. 1 Cor 15:2 Here is a trustworthy saying: 2 By this gospel you are saved, 'If you hold firmly' to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 2 Tim 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 IF we ENDURE, we will also reign with him. IF we DISOWN him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. 2 Peter 2:20 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by 'Knowing' our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. Heb 10:28 28 Anyone who 'rejected' the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished 'who has trampled the Son of God underfoot', who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant 'that sanctified them', and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
@@sukka4pain I was thinking of saying the same thing brother. When I was first saved back in 1987, I was so proud of myself that I could use a Strongs Concordance and look up Bible verses. I was a king a proof texting and didn't know what in the world I was talking about. Paul tells Timothy to study to show thyself approved unto God a Workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth. It's very obvious that a person can wrongly divide the word of Truth. I'm with the good old Apostle Paul who said, I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I committed unto him against that day. He does the keeping. Praise God. I would also be interested to know what Bible version the proof-texter is using. A lot of peculiar translations compared to the versions of the Bible that I use.
Brother Luke, you forgot... "Well said. Because of unbelief, they were broken off, and YOU STAND BY FAITH. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. OTHERWISE, you also will be cut off" Rom 11 20-22 To my other two brothers in this thread.....please explain why you think all of these verses are taken out of context and please exegete them properly for us
Oh, let's not forget... "Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" Gal 5 2-4 Paul was afraid for the Galatians who were reverting to the law. He was afraid that they were "estranged from Christ"...."falling from grace" where "Christ would profit them nothing". Fall from grace = lose your salvation
@@sukka4pain A very simple concept going on here. Either you can, or you can't reject God. I'm not sure if you have eyes.... but Paul he entertains the notion! I've heard all the Calvinist rebuttals for these verses and they typically state these people who reject God, weren't Christian to begin with or they change the word "Faith" to a mere acknowledgment of God. These passages iv'e included are only some of a countless number...
James 5:19-20 English Standard Version 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
I want my kids and dad to be saved, and at one point in their lives they did believe, but the world tainted their beliefs and they all walked away. God is full of mercy and grace and I hope and pray daily that they turn back to Him one day.
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted. Mark 13:22 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Revelation 3:16 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!
@AVB2 Galatians 5:1-6 - The Apostle Paul clearly states that Christ has set us free. He has saved us! And yet he goes on to say to believers that if they follow another gospel (Galatians 1:6-10 cf. II John 1:7-11) they are “cut off from Christ” and “they have fallen from grace.” See Galatians 5:4. You cannot fall from somewhere you have never been! In other words the argument that “Anyone who is lost was never saved in the first place” or “Anyone who is lost was never really a believer” is nonsense. While that may be true of some it is not true of all. Christians can fall from grace! Paul said so. A saved believer can fall from grace. And it is a lying heresy to say that they can’t.
@@Yeshua_Is_King777 Once saved always saved? Has a person born again lost their freewill? Have they put on incorruption? Have temptations been removed from them? No! “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: *but* he that *shall endure unto the end* the same shall be saved.” {Mark 13:13} Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, *in departing* from the living God. But exhort one another *daily* while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, *if* we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. {Hebrews 3:12-14} I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: *but let them not turn again to folly* {Psalm 85:8} “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he [the unclean spirit] walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house [a man] from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.” {Matthew 12:43-45} Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man *draw back* my soul shall have no pleasure in him. {Hebrews 10:38} And he said to them all, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross *daily* and follow me.” {Luke 9:23} ^ Sanctification.
@@larrybedouin2921 Also just fun fact- your last name references one of the most ancient Arab tribes to date- Bedouin Tribe. If you'd like, you can do research on them and see how they correlate with the Bible (specifically the Old Testament and one of the Kingdoms near - one of the closest ones North of - the Arabian Peninsula ✝️
You are not far from the True Faith, for no one knows for sure whether he is saved or not until the judgment. Because if one fails to persevere until the end (Matt 24:13), he will not be saved. That's why St. Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps, after I have preached to others, I myself should become a reprobate." St. Paul, an Apostle, was concerned about the possibility of losing his salvation, thus proving that 'Once Saved, Always Saved', 'Faith alone", or 'Predestined" is a complete lie from Hell, and that the salvation requires a great efforts on our part to truly live according to Our Lord's Commandments of Love and observing All He commanded as taught by His One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Matt 28:20), so that we may be transformed into the True Image and Likeness of Christ (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18); because, we are judged, not by Faith, but according to our deeds and works (Rev 20:13, 22:12. Matt 25:31-46), as only those who OBSERVE All the teachings and persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) are justified (Rom 2:13).
The Early Church writers did not believe in Once saved always saved: We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. Barnabas (c. 70-130, E), 1.138. The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. . . . Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. . . . And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that even after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the “many who are called,” but not the “few who are chosen.” Barnabas (c. 70-130, E), 1.139. Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.522. Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.523. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day. . . . For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.11. There is but one repentance to the servants of God. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.21. If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house will lose all hope of salvation. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.23. Put away doubting from you, and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, “How can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?” Do not reason with yourself in this manner. Instead, with all your heart turn to the Lord, and ask of Him without doubting. For then you will know the multitude of His tender mercies and that He will never leave you, but will fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.26.
No one includes you or me! John 10:27-30 is quite possibly my favorite verse, as it lets me know that now that I belong to Christ, not even I can mess it up. Those who leave the faith never had saving faith, but were false converts.
No! I would say the seal of his blood and the corresponding promise of eternal life is unbreakable over the “whosoever believes" part of that and Jesus will get us across the finish line . It's the "working that out in fear and trembling" and "daily taking up our crosses" part I'm not sure of. The order of our salvation is Spirit, soul and body, just as in the fall in the garden; if you eat of the wrong tree in the midst of the garden ye shall surely die didn't begin with a bodily death, it began with the image of God in man dying in us which corrupted the soul and led to premature death of the body. But Jesus as the second Adam, restored what only he could do (apart from the works of man) and was resurrected and restored the image of God in man, removing the barrier of separation and the Angel who stood between us and the tree of life and sealing us for eternity with the blood over the door post of our hearts. Now we are in that portion which is the salvation of our souls and we all who have believed have the continuing choice to believe and obey all of those "works" created for us to do in Christ Jesus long before amd receive greater and greater rewards and “suffer" loss. I think of 1 cor 3, which is clearly talking about those who have believed and HAVE the security of eternal life but one of those big buts of the bible is there and some who have built with wood hay and stubble, on the right foundation , yet suffer loss with nothing to show for it except with nothing to show for it BUT the blood of Jesus that maybe they believed upon at bible camp some decades ago. So, if our “salvation “ is a daily process what does that look like? How about the wedding supper of the lamb where the angels let a man in presumably because he was sealed by the blood or had his invitation but did not have wedding clothes on? It was the Father who kicked him out, but he also doesn’t refer to him as an enemy but a friend…. A friend who just didn’t have wedding clothes on and couldn’t be at that particular event, nevertheless , he was kicked out to a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. It’s easy to assume that means he was kicked out of heaven but I think he was “saved", but the wedding banquet is for those who were clothed in wedding arraignment which I believe are the righteous acts of the saints of eph 2:10. So there are those who are saved with a confession and those who are SAVED through faith AND obedience. We’re all “IN" but I don’t believe that just because you say a prayer to go to heaven gets you into the wedding feast let alone the bridal chamber as a bride. Some are just friends in the outer court looking in, some ate door keepers , some are attendees with the right clothes, some are in the wedding party and then I think there are the “few" who become the bride of Christ. I mean if someone without the right clothes can’t even get into the wedding how about who is allowed into the most intimate place as His Bride? I hold all of this very loosely and with humility and keep myself open to correction but I believe I can back it all up scriptural but am interested in hearing other views from believers.
The only time “faith alone” is said in scripture is to say that faith is dead if it is alone, without works, in the book of James. Alone is Luther, not Biblical, and if people can’t allow the Bible to teach them and buck up against scripture, it is a fellowship issue to me. The only people asking if they can lose their salvation are people who are withholding something from the Lord, and are trying to find a way to keep on living their old life. If they read the Bible they will know that they will be cast into outer darkness, which is away from the Lord, if they choose not to follow Him. If a person doesn’t want to be in fellowship with God and walking in the light, He gives them what they want.
Recently I asked the question to some people "When someone is saved , what is saved?" The idea was to help realize the transformation they experience as they follow Jesus. Then I asked them the question, "What is not saved?"
You are saved from the wrath of God against sin. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Romans 5:9 NIV
@@elunico13 Of course. My question to you is how do you understand what Paul states concerning God's wrath in Romans chap. 1? Reading Scripture is one thing-reasoning out what it says is another.
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; The Godly will Be Delivered 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: Profane and Blasphemous Seducers 10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. KJV
The Lord’s Prayer teaches us that we have a daily battle with the devil and we need to ask God to deliver us from temptations of the devil. “Lead us not into temptation.” This means, do not allow us to be led into it by him who tempts. For far be the thought that the Lord should seem to tempt us-as if He either were ignorant of the faith of someone, or else were eager to overthrow it. Tertullian (c. 198, W), 3.684. When we ask that we may not come into temptation, we are reminded of our infirmity and weakness, in that we need to ask this. Otherwise, someone may insolently vaunt himself or proudly and arrogantly assume anything to himself. Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.454.
I think we should avoid sin because it was bad before we were a Christian and it is still bad now . But you cannot change your salvation once your saved .
@@s.a3099 yes the Scriptures says that if we confess our sins, the Lord will forgive our sins, but if we continue to violate that sin, the Lord will let you go and have you removed from the main branch. There are about 80 passages of Scripture that says that our salvation is conditional and many of them are directives from Christ in the kingdom passages. Matthew 25:30 ESV [30] And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Jesus gives many of these examples, another central doctrine on salvation and the rapture and second coming a firms the judgement seat of Christ is during the tribulation period and that the Church will purified as to those who are faithful and those who are weeds and tares. Jesus states very clearly here that the weeds and tares are removed first before the rapture of the Church, this passage and many others that the judgement seat of Christ is during the tribulation period. Daniel 7:21-22 ESV [21] As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. This passage is mirrored in Revelation Revelation 20:4 ESV [4] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Take note of when the thrones are set up.
WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST: We are redeemed (Gal 3:13) We are new creatures (2Cor 5:17) We are called to be saints (Rom 1:7) We are accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6) We have the forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7) We are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37) We are Ambassadors for Christ (2Cor 5:20) We are justified freely by his grace (Rom 3:24) We are the temple of the living God (2Cor 6:16) We have redemption through his blood (Eph 1:7) We have now received the atonement (Rom 5:11) We are free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) We are sons and heirs of God through Christ (Gal 4:7) We have been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18) We are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (2Cor 3:3) We are not our own, for we are bought with a price (1Cor 6:19-20) We are not far but now made nigh by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13) We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30) We can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth us (Php 4:13) We are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12) We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28) We are justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9) We are to endure hardness, as a good soldier of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Tim 2:3) We are to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Eph 3:9) We are presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his sight (Col 1:22) We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3) We are justified by his grace, and made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) We are to wait for the Lord Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10) We are confident that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it (Php 1:6) We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8) We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us (Gal 2:20) We are workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim 2:15) We are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God (1Cor 6:11) We are looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13) We are persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:38-39) We are justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Gal 2:16) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1Cor 15:57) And Ye Are Complete in Him (Col 2:10)
I believe in Eternal Security but not once saved always saved. Once saved always saved seems to say, I am saved there for I can live anyway I want and sin with reckless abandon. Two different things.
@@robertfridley280 antinomianism: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. Jude soundly refutes this idea in verse 4 of his book: For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
What about king Saul? Filled by the Holy Spirit, became a new person, used by the Holy Spirit, then rejected the LORD and died (1 Chronicles 10:13)? Wouldn’t he be one who was saved yet chose to walk away?
Turn away from sins and have faith IN JESUS CHRIST TO BE SAVED AND THE LORD WILL CHANGE YOUR HEART TO LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS! AND BELIEVE JESUS DIED AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD TO SAVE YOU!
I’m not sure I follow. You’re soteriology sounds more like the Freewill Baptist. They believe that you can forfeit your salvation. But if that’s the case then show me one verse where we can leave our salvation and God kills the spirit he both raised and sealed unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit would have to unseal us and break God’s promise. We’re saved because of God’s promises, not our works or experiences. If we genuinely believe and receive Christ and are born again, then the Christian can leave yet still be redeemed in his/her apostasy because God promised that the moment one receives Christ that he would make their dead spirit alive, then gives them the Holy Spirit as a dowry that guarantees marriage. And it’s not dependent upon what we might do later on. You also misinterpreted Matt. 7. The reason why he doesn’t know them is because they never entered through the narrow gate.
25:05 For anyone in an abusive relationship, please do NOT stay in it to prove that your love is a real (agape) love. Protect yourself first, then sort it out.
How do we lose the eternal LIFE that God gives us when we ARE saved? It's ALL about HIM --- NOT us. It's HIS salvation that HE gives as a gift I cannot walk away from HIS work that HE says it's FINISHED. Thank you Jesus
That sounds nice. Not true though. If it were why would everyone not subscribe. Read hebrews 6. Hebrews 9 and 10. 1 john 5. Etc. Bible clearly does not teach this comforting but false teaching.
@@ddff5242 the reason no one "subscribes" is because the Bible clearly says THAT NONE seek after God. HE MUST choose some to be SAVED because none will come and we cannot come. John 6 clearly says THAT. JUST accept God's decree that we ARE ONLY evil continually. He loves sinners and He ONLY SAVES sinners. People do NOT like the ways of God because it's "unfair". God WILL DO everything to HIS GLORY alone. If we choose to reply against HIM ---- that's PURE rebellion
@@ddff5242 the Bible says THAT Paul's gospel given to him by Jesus himself ---- is incoherent to the lost. I pray you will find peace in Paul's gospel --- The FINISHED work Jesus accomplished for salvation
@Over-for-now that's right. I'm incapable of understanding because I'm not apart of the special selected ones. Got it. Have fun in the cultish echo chamber you live in.
Answer: what about your will is free? Maybe you're confusing having the FREEDOM to choose, with having FREEWILL. Only The Almighty God has FREEWILL and since the Satan rebelled he has A WILL (not free but still) and humans are FREELY choosing to obey one or the other. Them "doing their own will" is actually fulfilling the will of Satan. That's the whole point. No FREEWILL!
We can lose our salvation, we can fall from the faith. I like Dr. Flowers so much but he just agreed with the P from the TULIP. The TULI are obviously wrong, that means that the P cannot stand either.
The parable of the Sower and the seeds (Matt 13: 1-23) clearly shows the Word can be heard and accepted, with joy even, (is this not "saved?") and yet the hearer can "fall away" ....it seems that this parable clearly teaches that one can fall away after hearing and accepting the Word with joy and yet be lost or unfruitful ...remember according to Matt 7:19 that unfruitful branches are tossed into the flames? To believe in eternal salvation is akin to believing in the Calvinist position that God saves you against your will (irresistible grace) ..it infers that because a person is now "saved" their free-will shall no longer have anything to do with their salvation.. this is to say God will "save" you regardless of your beliefs, life-style and outright rejection of Jesus ...to assert it is my free-will that is engaged when accepting salvation and then to deny my free-will in rejecting salvation afterwards is contradictory ..... Mathew 24:10 states that "..many will fall away.." and follow false teachers and prophets......but ask yourself---fall away from what? ...
They believed the truth and had faith. Here is the measure I used for them but I measured by His will in John 6. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.-John 12:23-24 The measure you use is measured unto you so there it is. They were pruned and the fruit remains. Unfruitful is not fruitless. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.-Mathew 7:21 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.-John 6:35-40 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.-John 20:29 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-John 3:16
If we believe in free will (which I do) we do not surrender our will after salvation. If we choose to walk away, I believe we can, just as I believe in our free will to accept Jesus’ free gift of salvation. I am not dogmatic about this, believe eternal security could possibly be true. But for me there are enough Scriptures to make me still hold to the position you can walk away.
Felix Mitchell - Salvation has ALWAYS been a FREE GIFT. Abraham and David were saved because they believed, not because of their works under the law. Scripture is very clear on this. Romans 4:3-8 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
@@johngodsey5327 God is not an "Indian Giver". A believer receives "everlasting" @ their conversion. The "everlasting" is the *SAME* word used to describe the "everlasting" fires of hell. So if a person can s/how, in s/way lose his "everlasting" life, that would mean that a person has a chance to get out of hell somehow, at some time & in some way. Ye must be born *AGAIN* , singular...not again & again should you transgress to what...just how many sins, what type of sin, etc is it that s/body can even commit for God to use his eraser and erase the name from the Lamb's Book of Life? Is it a mere choice to say they no longer believe? *SMH*
I think that, just NT Wright points out, in second temple Judaism justification has a present and a future dimension, so I don’t think you can say that it is only forensic. There is a covenantal and escathological aspect to it. So, I’ll question the validity of the assertion from the perspective of modern scholarship. But also please bear in mind that this idea is nowhere to be found in the early Fathers. So, if you claim that Augustine went against the consensus of the early Fathers regarding predestination you need to be consistent intellectually and reject forensic justification on the same grounds. Below some excerpts from Aleister McGrath, which knows probably better than anyone else the history of the doctrine of justification. “The essential distinguishing feature of the reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between justification and regeneration...the essential point is that a notional distinction is made where none had been acknowledged before in the history of Christian doctrine. A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed, or even been contemplated, before. The reformation understanding of the nature of justification -as opposed to its mode- must be regarded as a genuine theological novum”
psalms 89 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; note 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. note note 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. note 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Love what you said, its not "Once saved always saved," but rather "If saved always saved." Your analogy about the flat earth was great. Regarding Hebrews 6, Dr. Tony Evans explained it best for me. It's clear they are true Christians and it is clear they fell away from something. Note it never says salvation. What did they fall away from? It says enlightenment, heavenly gift, partaking in the Holy Spirit, the good word of God, and the power of the world to come. In other words in their backslid state they can't enjoy all the benefits of being a child of God. Their fellowship cannot be renewed as long as they are crucifying Christ afresh. In other words acting like Peter before the rooster crowed. It doesn't say they can't latter get alone with God and weep bitterly and repent and renew their fellowship. The passage goes on to describe their state like a farmer's field grown over with thorns. A field in such a state would have to be burned off to clear all the thorns so he could once again grow good crops. It has nothing to do with God casting them into hell, but rather using fiery trials to bring them back to a place of bearing fruit. I've personally experienced this in my life.
… can’t enjoy all the benefits of being a child of God? How many types of children of God are there? At least 2 from what you are saying: 1 with benefits and 2 without benefits. Any Scripture for that? What would you make of Hebrews 5:9 then?
If saved always saved? That's a word game. It's means the same thing as once saved always saved. They are saying the same thing. It's just worded different. Just like Leighton is wording it different. The only difference worded different. The analogy regarding flat earth. Is a false analogy based out of ignorance on what most Christian flat earthers believe. They do not believe the earth is a floating disk with edges one can fall off of. They believe the earth has pillars along with the sky and that the sky is a solid dome. The Sky is fastened at the edges . The edges cannot be fallen off of according to most Christian geocentrist. so there are no edges that one falls off. This notion that geocentric Christians believe in a disk that floats with edges one can fall off of. Is misinformation Leighton has not taken the time to research what Christians geocentrist believe. He he had he would not make this statement. Now someone can reply using a statement like. Flat earth is not biblical. Ok you can say this but that's not the point. The point is flat earth ledge thing is misrepresented. Leighton is still reaffirming once saved. Using words like genuinely saved. Is the same thing Calvin's say. This is using word games. If you cannot out sin God's grace. Then the verses about apostasy would not be sever and damage. Loose leave same thing. Calvinist are not saying a person can loose there salvation like loosing keys. He is taking there wording out of context. I also get the inconsistencies from calvinistic worldview but to put if off that Calvinist are saying lose in the context like keys thats dishonest. The inconsistencies of calvinistic logic is erelavent to the point of what calvinist mean by loosing there salvation. Them saying a person lost there salvation is in the context of they chose willingly to leave. This is not relevant to there inconsistency.
@@patcode8261 So, we have "Christian flat earthers" today who believe we live under a sky dome? Like a much bigger version of what Jim Carrey's movie character experienced?
@@patcode8261 these guys like leighton don't want to know the real truth of the earth and God's creation. he may have been able to swallow his pride and admit he was wrong when he believed the calvinist nonsense but it's going to take some really big dose of ego deflation for him to admit the earth is flat.
The danger with term 'OSAS' is that it can lead people to believe they can behave in any way they choose, walking in wilfull sin, and still be saved. This is neither logical nor coherent given the character of God and the instructions for us to lead a Godly life in Christ. I agree that we can sin (backslide)and repent (if it's true repentance, which is more than just feeling sorry, and is rather to turn around and walk in the opposite direction) and be forgiven (Peter), but to sin wilfully and uncaringly is different. It mocks God and spits on what Jesus did for our salvation. If we are saved no matter what we do, we can rape, murder, molest, torture and just because we once believed, we're okay, only these fruits will be burned, well be okay and rewarded with an eternity of bliss... WOW! This is worse than determinism! And a terrible message to atheists. God gave us scripture so we would know what kind of life we should live. We all need the Holy Spirit to enable us to live it and even then we will all rebel at times to this guidance. But if we do not care, if we do not surrender to this, do not repent, we cannot be saved. I have know church going people who live sinful lives saying it doesn't matter, because they are saved. So dangerous. We cannot have Jesus as Saviour, if we do not also have him as Lord.
Dr Flowers, love your channel and watch a ton of your content and appreciate all you’re doing to fight the false doctrine of Calvinism. Question for you, are you defining a concept of “being saved” is equal to sanctification?
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted. Mark 13:22 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Revelation 3:16 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Matthew 25:41-46 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The scriptures are pretty clear on this subject. The scriptures teach that Christians have the assurance of salvation, you cannot accidentally burp out your salvation, God will discipline his children sometimes with severe consequences to get them back on track, but we don't lose our free will after being saved and God will never force people onto himself or into heaven. Note: speaking to Christians: James 1:15 ESV: "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." This truth doesn't disappear when you become truly saved. Also speaking to Christians: 1 Tim 4:1 ESV: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking to Christians and the author spoke in a manner that there would be no confusion and yet here we are. This is not a dividing matter and I like how you articulate the problems of calvinistic doctrine.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome If what you mean by "dividing matter" is not submitting to the leadership that teaches this, then I would agree with you and it has been my experience that these leaders also normally teach other false doctrines.
The problem with viewing warning passages in Hebrews as only referring to chastisement or loss of rewards is that one must believe that it isn't necessary to continue believing in Christ as a savior. If a person chooses to completely reject Jesus, why would God allow them into Heaven? All relationships in life must consist of both parties committed to one another. If someone no longer loves God, no longer trusts Him, no longer wants to be with Him, then why would He force them to stay? That would be an illogical, unproductive, and pointless relationship where neither party benefits.
Well said. Calvinists don't believe in free will before and after salvation. So called "free gracers" believe in free will before salvation but you lose free will after salvation. What I sometimes tell people is that you can't accidentally drop your salvation and God will discipline his children even with great consequences to get them back on track - but God will never force anyone onto himself. There are lots of verses; warnings to Christians which associate salvation with continuing in the faith, not getting cut off, persisting, forgiving others, enduring, etc.
Though I believe in OSAS I still love your teachings. We have been adopted into his family. I don’t like using marriage because divorce isn’t sinful in certain events. But adoption is something you can’t separate from you. If he is our Father, what Father will abandon his child? Our Father who is in heaven... and the prodigal son parable as well. When he talks about us he talks about us as his children. Also the verse where it says that no one can snatch us away from his love not any kind of power. We aren’t powerful enough to separate us from him.
The adoption has not been finalized yet and will not be until we receive glorified bodies: 23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? (Romans 8:23-24) God does not abandon His children but sometimes His children abandon Him and the only way he has provided to save us: 1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will ABANDON THE FAITH to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons (1 Timothy 4:1)
@@JimiSurvivor You can’t lose what you never had to begin with. If you were never truly saved to begin with, then there’s nothing there to worry about losing because you aren’t saved. You also can’t lose something you don’t leave. As long as you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved, & you are eternally secure. I’m this way, believers’ salvation is eternally secure.
@@RUT812 a. "You can’t lose what you never had to begin with" I agree. Unbelievers, cannot lose a salvation they never possessed. This does not prove believers cannot depart from their faith. Paul warned: Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will DEPART from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1) DEPART is the translation of the Greek word aphistemi. Other translations include: "fall away" or "abandon" Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines this word as: "to desert, withdraw from...to fall away, BECOME FAITHLESS. This suggests a transition from one state (believing) to the opposite state (not believing). The people Paul was describing had faith but subsequently abandoned or departed from it. There is no room in the verse to insert that they NEVER believed. That is pure eisegesis. ................................................. b. "If you were never truly saved to begin with, then there’s nothing there to worry about losing because you aren’t saved." I would say there is a great deal for anyone who is not saved to "worry about" 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36) ................................................. c. "You also can’t lose something you don’t leave." Yes and if Christians DO NOT LEAVE Christ they will not lose anything else either ................................................. d. "As long as you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved, & you are eternally secure." As long as you CONTINUE TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus you are saved and secure. Some believers will not fulfill that condition. This is the focus of most of the warnings given in the NT: 21 Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence - (Colossians 1:21-22) This scripture shows the final end God has prepared for us. However reaching this end has conditions attached to it: 23 IF indeed you CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved NOT MOVED from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature (Colossians 1:23) We will only realize our eternal inheritance, IF we CONTINUE in TO BELIEVE and do not allow ourselves to be moved away into a lifestyle of disobedience or into false teaching that contradicts the gospel of the Lord Jesus.
@@JimiSurvivor not that I'm disagreeing with you, and no I'm not a Calvinist (that's such a scary horrid teaching), more on a regular christian that does not claim to denominations, , but then my rhetorical question to you is then even though there are people misled by false teaching but still have faith in Jesus, and even though doubt races in my mind about my salvation at times, along with many others, because of the difficulties life brings or even working out salvation, but still have faith, that still counts ofcourse, right? Because there are days when we fall short and that is an active moment when we sin, mess up, get tired, cannot keep a performance base, and have a bad day with bad news and really difficult scenarios, where we feel so exhausted we fass short even by crying and wanting to give up, But our faith, meaning belief, though small as an mustard, meaning we still have our faith in God, even if it feels like life is falling apart, THAT is STILL an example of faith, which still clearly shows that person is saved given their faith, right? And if someone went bitter but turned back to the Lord, with a heart of Goldy sorrow, we still cannot tell them they "lost the gift" even through those moments right? because here's the thing, we live in a broken world and we do have the choices to have faith or not. But you got to take into account that It's not by our own works, but by faith which we all agree on, which then God's grace becomes more abound. So yes truly things do matter. I'm NOT for a denomination, I'm just a follower of Christ, but that being said, we also cannot conclude that x+y=z for sure. I got away from bad teaching and still have to look out for it, but in that current time you wouldn't be able to concluded that I'd be in hell or am going to hell because at that time, which was then current, now past was a solid conclusion of me not being saved, even when I was in error of defending error, which FF to now I am not at all supporting or endorsing the intentions or errors of flase teaching, but reading the Gospel for myself. And I know you're not literally concluding X+Y=Z to the extent of basing works out to be an "%80 accurate of the time" conclusion of determining someone's salvation. I only say these things because I can relate to some of these examples in some degree, and I'm no means perfect and I fall short and sometimes get so overwhelmed by how much fighting the church does sometimes we can bare it. There's times I fell short MANY times, and thought "well, I failed this time for sure and I've failed being faithful in this moment so clearly I'm in danger of losing salvation". YET I'm still here by God's grace. and To an extend this can add to your point, but to add to it is the fact of NOT limiting what GRACE uniquely looks like in everyone's life. Can't box God up. Even people in the BATTLE of addiction. They hurt but who says they didn't believe or they don't? Because they struggle, which can easily imply that ups AND downs will exist and can exist most of their life. NO ONE can live a sinless life. So, to conclude, I think that OSAS can present issues regarding the hypotheticals which are usually anticipated as an argue against it. Idk all the answers. I'm more so" If you confess with your mouth and heart and genuinely (honestly) believe, you will be saved". The moment you do seals you in Heaven. Relationship is important. But I also think that what we need to do is help and address doubt of salvation, and NOT preach a work based faith by mistake, because it doesn't matter what part of the spectrum you're on, I feel that The full coherency of the Bible teaches that we are all fallen, through Jesus we are redeemed, yes Jesus even says to remain in Him, but I think the problem we face is that we forget how SIMPLE remaining in Him can be, and how our fruits are a result of our salvation, but not a direct determination by "amount or type of fruits" that could come up with a determined that we "maintain" salvation by works rather than believing the finished work was enough. Christ's faithfulness, or in other words,finished work on the cross. again my fellow brother, not disagreeing with you that we take faith actively seriously, but at the same time cannot support and will not support anything that can imply works based salvation since it can fall ultimately lead to doubt in Jesus work on the cross.
@@RandyEscalanteGarcia a. "...even though there are people misled by false teaching but STILL HAVE FAITH in Jesus, and even though DOUBT races in my mind about my salvation at times, along with many others, because of the difficulties life brings or even working out salvation, but still have faith, that still counts of course, right?" Our faith vacillates because we are temporal and do not yet see God directly. I myself have gone through dark times where my faith was almost completely extinguished. However, merely having doubt alone is not equivalent to completely ABANDONING of the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). It is possible to believe and doubt at the same time (e.g., Mark 9:24) b. The dichotomy between FAITH vs WORKS comes from the Reformers misunderstanding of Paul. When the Apostle opposed WORKS he did not mean any action whatsoever but meritorious good deeds of the LAW. No amount of that class of actions saves us. He did not mean that no action at all is required for salvation. We are commanded to REPENT and BELIEVE. These are actions but not ones we choose apart from the influence of the Spirit. However, we are capable of resisting, refusing, and quenching the Spirit. Besides that Paul always CONTRASTED repentance and faith with meritorious works. Personally I never imagined that something good I did would grant me forgiveness nor establish me in right standing with God. c. The idea of "maintaining" salvation strikes me as a peculiar notion. What the scripture tells us to do is keep believing THE GOSPEL. If we continue doing that then we will continue to abide in the Father and Son. This process of continuing in Him IS the definition of eternal life: 24 As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning [the gospel] remain in you. IF it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.…(1 John 2:24-25) Continuing in Him would be impossible without the indwelling Holy Spirit who assists us by giving us the power to live. d. God will give us grace and help in times of need. Nevertheless the Bible says WE must continue in the faith all the way to the throne room 22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence - 23 if indeed you CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, NOT MOVED from the HOPE OF THE GOSPEL you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.… (Colossians 1:21-22) If we are MOVED AWAY from our hope we will never complete our journey, e. Believing is not a meritorious good work of the Law. Neither does it mean to hold to a doctrinal opinion. Rather it means to trust in, have confidence in, rely on and depend upon Him. Hebrews 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith comes across to the natural man as a perilous risk: 23 Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.… (Luke 9:21-24)
The problem I have with the “once saved, now lost “ is found in John 10:28 where Jesus said NO MAN can snatch anyone from His hand… that ‘no man’ includes the self… if I were to walk away, denying the faith, I John 2:19 would describe me… I never was…
Jesus is saying in John 10:28 if you remain in Jesus, in His path, in His fold, He won't leave you. It does not mean you do not have free will to walk away. In Matthew it mentions sheeps are able to get lost and there is no guarantee Jesus may find them.
But then the circular argument with OSAS folks begins.... Because then they will say that one who walks away was never REALLY saved to begin with.... Okay. They are impossible to have any kind of discussion with.... Generally.
@@joeydaniel3053 “But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:32 “who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:8 “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” 1 John 5:18 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 “being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” Philippians 1:6 “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:7-9 “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1 John 2:4 Someone who has been truly born again will not depart from the faith.. some will depart from the faith of being religious and fulfilling religious duties who is not regenerate. But as I’ve shared, He that has been born of God (born again) overcomes the world… and people that say “I know him” and don’t make a practice of keeping is commandments are liars. “And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” Ezekiel 36:27 “and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.” Jeremiah 32:40 God uses his Word to put fear in the hearts of those that are born again.. and will cause them by His Spirit to remain in him.
Love Dr. Flowers and his ministry! Here I think he misses the mark. Romans 11 makes it clear that one can be cutoff due to unbelief and grafted in AGAIN if they repent and believe. Notice, they are grafted BACK INTO the very root they were cutoff from. This means if they weren't saved before, they aren't saved now because they are simply back where they started. If they ARE now saved, then they were saved BEFORE because again, they are back where they started. If by faith they were/are/will be saved, then by turning away from that faith, they forfeit their salvation. Much love, Leighton! May God continue to bless all you do for the Kingdom!
Yes however that doesn’t mean “losing salvation” but is a matter of “favor”. You can be cut off (out of favor) but not in danger of hell. In the same sense, you can be grafted back in (back in favor) with God but it has nothing to do with salvation. Because works can not depend on that.
Sage of Synergism the prodigal son is a picture of a kingdom relationship , not necessarily salvation. If you read it , you will notice there is an established relationship. But with the lost, they have no relationship with God prior to salvation. So it Is a picture of repentance and coming back into favor, but the father never stopped being the prodigals father.
@Sage of Synergism "Dead" and "alive" is indicative of the two natures a born again believer has. Those who walk according to the flesh are considered "dead" in the sense of having already been "crucified with Christ". By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Jesus saves your soul, not your flesh. Those who walk according to the Spirit shall reap life eternal which is to say a born again believer has access to what Christ already secured for them eternally in this life. God bless!! :)
Eric Rogers I'd like to show you where you missed the mark :) Romans 11 is speaking about God's elect nation Israel who were IN the vine because God chose them to be in the vine first. They were cut off because they didn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They REJECTED Jesus, therefore they NEVER believed. They turned away from God by turning their backs on their Messiah. They forfeited their salvation by rejecting Jesus. The warning is to the nations as a whole not to follow Israel's example of unbelief and to not boast against Israel because they can be grafted back in even though they have been cut off if they humble themselves and believe the record that the Father gave of his Son. It's good news because we BELONG to Jesus and thank God HE keeps us because God knows we would "lose" our salvation as many times as we lose our keys! ;)
That (grafted verses) is about Israel, the Holy Nation, chosen to serve. Salvation verses are found in the gospel of John, a person is born again by receiving seed (the word, the gospel) and Jesus says they will never perish.
“The seeds on the rocky soil represent those who hear the message and receive it with joy. But since they don’t have deep roots, they believe for a while, then they fall away when they face temptation.” ~ Luke 8:13, NLT If they believe for a while or for a season, how would we know except by their fruits? Apostates cannot be unbelievers. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (NASB), “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.” Falling away from the faith or departing from the faith cannot be anything else but faith in Christ. I cannot depart from faith in Christ if I was never in it. What we have done with salvation is that we have, in my opinion, merged being saved with inheriting the Kingdom. Being saved (justification) is God forgiving your sins and placing you in a new path that you must walk (sanctification) in obedience to get to the inheritance of the Kingdom (glorification or the resurrection of our bodies). We have isolated Philippians 1:6 to read that God, no matter what and against my will, will finish what He started in me but Paul reveals his confidence in his conclusion that God will finish what He started based on verse 5. Philippians 1:4-6 (NLT) reads, “Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy, for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV), “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time, their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.” Notice that Peter says that the Lord bought them which is the same figure of speech Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 1 Corinthians 7:23. Can we truly say that these false prophets were never justified? PS. If you disagree with me, please be kind; insulting others who disagree with you is unchristian. I appreciate greatly that Dr. Leighton Flowers stated that he could be wrong; that’s humility.
Having been a devout Catholic my whole life, I became an Evangelical. My former friends view it as abandoning the faith, whereas in my heart, God has called me to understand His Word so much better. In my earlier life, I followed the church, whereas now, God's Word is the final authority.
I went through twelve God forsaken years of Catholic school, they are devil.
@barrypatrickius You went through a school of the Vatican II sect, not the Catholic Church. The Vatican II sect is just another Protestant "denomination."
@@j.knight9335 pre Vatican ll Catholic church is even more satanic than post Vatican ll Catholic church which is very evil.
@@barrypatrickiusWhere was your protestant religion in say, a.d. 500? Answer the question. Try not to deflect.
Only now? His word wasn't the ultimate authority before? Sounds as if you might be stupid.
It was quite obvious for me. I was sick and realized through His Spirit that my life was terribly sinful. I broke down and cried out to God. Two days later I felt His presence and then the Holy Spirit pouring through me. I was healed and my entire life is focused on Him. Glory to God
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted.
Mark 13:22
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Revelation 3:16
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
But why. Was it your free will?
@@greghanson-w3d Conviction from the Holy Spirit creates a sense of guilt about what you have done. You then freely ask God to forgive you, and “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ~ 1 John 1:9
We are not the ones who do the cleansing, we do not bring the conviction, but we DO respond in faith and ask to be healed, and in turn God promises in his word that he will.
@@greghanson-w3d NO NOT at ALL.
Our free will is CORRUPT
@@Over-for-now Cain and Abel were both fallen men, but one responded to God correctly and the other incorrectly. How could Abel respond correctly to God if his nature is fully corrupt as you understand?
I Wish Paul would've wrote a book of, "Frequently Asked Questions" 😊
Its called most of the new testament. Our confusion doesnt come from a lack of source material.
It's called The Passion Translation. (Ducks.. jk!)
Calvinism is the belief that God only chooses a few to be saved and they believe faith is a work of God. Romans 4:5 Faith apart from works. Faith is not a work. Well they say, then faith must be a gift from God. Romans 6:23 For the penalty of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. The GIFT of God is eternal life. Not faith. First Corinthians 1:18 and First Corinthians 1:21 For after that, by the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE. John 6:47. God cannot lie. John 3:18. Believers can never be condemned again. The sin debt is paid in full. First Corinthians 15:1-4.
Romans 3:26-28 For He is the just and the justifier of them that BELIEVE on Jesus. Where is boasting then? (You cannot boast in a free gift that we did nothing for.) It is excluded. By what law? By the law of works? Nay, but by the law of FAITH. Therefore we conclude a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the Law.
Galatians 2:21 I do not void the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 4:6 As David describeth the blessedness of the man to whom the Lord imputeth righteousness APART FROM WORKS. Blessed is the man whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. John 3:18. Acts 16:31. John 6:40. First John 5:13. These thing have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Gods word. John 6:47. God cannot lie. We are all sinners. Romans 3:23. Romans 3:9-10. There is none righteous, no not one. But we have His imputed Righteousness without which no one will see God.
@@jimkraft9445 so how do they live day to day if they don't have FAITH in God?
Second Timothy 2:13. If we believe not, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself. Ephesians 1:13-14. Our guarantee of eternal life when we accepted His free gift. Romans 6:23. Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, (First Corinthians 15:1-4, For it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Ephesians 4:30. And grieve not the Holy Spirit in whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Acts 16:31. The simplicity of the gospel. John 3:18.
A cousin of mine fell away from the faith and ended up joining a sketchy ungodly cult but, he returned to Christ eventually and he said he's never going to leave again. I believe he's saved.
Ask him if he actually believed Jesus raised from the dead originally? if no then he was never saved originally.
πιστεύω is the key word to understand this issue. Speaking as someone who thought he believed in Christ as a youth and later believed very Antichrist things, I wasn’t actually saved when I was young because I had not committed myself to πιστεύω in Christ yet. This Greek word is generally translated as “believe” like in John 3:16, but what we generally don’t understand before we get saved, you’re not being asked to believe in a way that you yourself see fit. You’re actually being asked to commit yourself to absolute trust in Christ. If you truly πιστεύω in Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit and be sealed unto the day of salvation, the nuance is trusting in the way Jesus actually asked of us which will mean we are willing to die for the gospel truth if necessary. I didn’t understand the difference until I was 33 and received the Holy Spirit. I had true trust in Christ after hearing the gospel of Matthew on audio on that day, when I was young I still had a future where I could break and thusly I had not yet committed myself to πιστεύω in Christ as I was instructed. We need to believe like the Bible asks, after that we are in the father’s hand and no one can remove us.
GOD Bless! ❤️
@@Sam-fp8zm The nuance there is he still had to believe in the Christ of the gospels and not of his own reckoning or that of the world. That’s the only nuance Paul gave us in the gospel when he spoke of trusting in a different spirit other than the one he and the other apostles taught. We can still trust a false Christ even when we believe the resurrection occurred, look at Roman Catholics as an example of what I’m saying.
GOD Bless! ❤️
@@narrowistheway77 yeh nar as soon as someone believes Jesus died for mans sins and rose from the dead they are saved forever. Judas never believed from the beginning jesus said so he was never saved.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome I didn’t fumble anything, and you’re actually causing division where none is necessary. I only spoke the Biblical truth and perhaps you need more Bible study to understand what I was actually saying because it has no conflict with the gospel you preached but rather clarified it which Paul himself did numerous times. This isn’t about works or leaven, it’s about making sure neither have been added to the salvation found in Christ. The New Testament was written in Greek because GOD wanted you to understand it as it was written Royce. Sometimes translations lose certain nuances and this is why many people fail to truly believe in Christ as intended whilst others believe the way they were asked without any further explanation because they had faith as intended.
For instance Roman Catholics believe in the Christ of their own imagination, they get many things right but they’ve added leaven, idolatry, and a different spirit under the name of Christ to their gospel and thusly are not saved by believing Christ died and was raised to life because their Christ is not Christ. This nuance matters a lot Royce and in truth you already know this but possibly needed examples to understand it.
Paul clarifies that the spirit behind the name of Christ is extremely important in Galatians 1 and that you better be sure to trust in the Christ that they preached in order to be saved. Your “Faith” and being under “Grace” literally depends on this. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 is a great passage to understand why so many Pastors are steering their flocks to the flames without showing them the true gospel and teaching the true spirit behind the name of Christ. The Bible even in English gives you a lot of elaborate passages to explain exactly what I said above.
Faith means you πιστεύω in Christ Royce. Specifically it means you trust in the correct spirit behind the name of Jesus Christ and not a false one. Clarifying the gospel is a healthy thing to do for others because so many trust that a Jesus of their own imagination saved them rather than the Christ that is written in the Bible itself. Explaining this leads many to read their Bible and truly know Jesus Christ for the first time and be saved through that faith in Jesus Christ as his prophets told of him.
The only spirit of Christ that saves is the spirit of Christ given by the prophets. Even Jesus clarified that more than once if you read the gospels diligently. If I believe in a Jesus I’m more comfortable with and believe that Jesus of my imagination rose to life and died for my sins rather than the Christ of scripture then I’ve believed wrongly because I did not πιστεύω in Jesus Christ. These are the foolish virgins who do not keep oil in their lamps. Are we trying to plant seeds for the birds to eat Royce? Seeds cast into thorns to be choked? Seeds onto rocky soil so their roots can be choked? No! We want seeds planted in healthy soil and we need to be good gardeners for the LORD to make sure those seeds grow into a healthy harvest without Satan’s deceptions fooling them into a false gospel. You need to recognize that almost every false gospel still includes the 1 Corinthians 15 gospel. The leaven that destroys the gospel is always subtle because the serpent is more subtle than any other beast of the field.
I’ll pray for you! GOD Bless! ❤️
Jesus did all the work, we must believe this to be saved.
Amen!
amen
humans forcing themselves oin God on youtube... not a good source for accuracy!
1 Corinthians 15 : 1 - 4 KJV bible ......AMEN........m c
@@uncasunga1800 ?
What does that mean you don’t pick up your cross? That Jesus will pick up that cross for you? Cause that’s not how that verse goes
Because believing and having faith is a choice we have, one can fall away. However, some fall away because they were never really converted, or regenerated in the first place. Those who were regenerated, but still fall away, it'll be worse for those folks.
@AVB2 Having faith is a choice. God may have predestined some to be born into a Christian upbringing, but we still have the choice to accept or reject. Beyond that God most definitely did not predestine anybody to he saved. That is not biblical. Why send us down to this earth if our fate was already decided? Why then are we here? We're here to experience life, to learn and grow. We're here to be tested wether we will choose right or wrong. Thats why evil exists, because God will not take away ones free agency even to protect the weak an innocent. Free will is essential to the plan of salvation.
@halodisciple8459 Heaven will be great place for everyone who is born again to be with Christ
forevermore...Christians who fall from grace fall
into grace..it is like walking a tight rope
with a net of safety underneath them...the faith if Christ saves a lost person..the lost person
repents & believes in Christ, but he is still not saved until he prays & asks Christ to come into their
heart forever to stay as
their Saviour & Lord..&
He responds "yes" &
comes into to sit upon
the throne there for
all eternity.."whatever God does, He does forever "..
Christ tells Christians
when they sin & He chastises all of His children..but sometimes
He has to shorten their
life physically prematurely ..to put
them into heaven..to keep them from going to hell..
becausea Christians cannot end up in hellfire.
The Church I grew with which in many ways that helped shape my thinking in soteriology always taught that Armininanism (and) Calvinism are "both" wrong. I do like this though like he said the "semantics", are a bit different. I am a (zero) point Calvinist we always taught that these 3 categories of people are 1. Spiritual (those who are disciples and bear fruit by abiding in the vine and reliance upon the Spirit of God for daily living) 2. Carnal (those who walk by means and power of the fleshly mind and refuse to yield to the convictions of the Spirit - grieve and quench Him) 3. Unsaved. (Don't trust the death burial and resurrection of Christ for an on their behalf - they're either religious or atheist but do not place their trust in Christ "alone") either they don't believe at all or they mix grace and works
All I know... is you CANNOT BE UNBORN or "un" indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. "Some" Armininan's believe if you don't persevere you were lost (unbiblical) the Calvinist believes if you don't persevere you never had it (unbiblical) both are wrong...
You're either saved... or lost! "If" you are saved? You're either Spiritual or Carnal.
Carnality manifests itself in 3 ways. 1. Legalism (is the mental attitude or false belief which seeks to "earn" or "deserve" the blessings of God "by" religious rituals, good works, for "either" salvation or "for the believer" sanctification) 2. Licentiousness (Obviously this belief goes something like this: well, I'm saved no matter what I do so let's sin it up that grace may abound - see Rom 6) 3. Mysticism (usually based totally on feelings, premonitions, or false revelations that are from the carnal mind or directly from the whispers of evil forces)
But yes... "once saved always saved" it happens at a point of time with abiding results Eph 2:8-9 is in the PERFECT tense, PASSIVE voice and INDICATIVE mood: Perfect point in the past, passive it was done onto me meaning the gifts are grace and salvation (NOT FAITH) and indicative which means it's a FACT to be reckoned... so yes, once saved "ALWAYS" saved and that happens the "moment",,, you believe Eph 1:13-14
Eternal life in John 3:16 means ETERNAL
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. Psalms 37:23-24.
There's a difference in falling out of weakness and deliberately walking away from the LORD. God helps those who fall out of weakness. If He didn't, none of us would make it. But the Bible warns us plainly about departing from the living God and against sinning willfully. Hebrews contains many such warnings.
@@bobbyadkins6983 have you ever told a lie after your conversion ?
@@user-jy5qm8nc9m falling into sin is not departing from God. You depart from Him when you live after the flesh. For as it says in Titus Professing they know God but by their deeds they deny Him. Believing in Jesus means you follow Him. He is not going to force you to live (key word, live) after the Spirit or after the Flesh. Calvinism makes the commandments of God of no effect for when God's word says Fear God, Love God with all your heart, they would like you to believe it is God who will do it for you else you are "working" for salvation, which is not the case.
If that were true, if i am working for my salvation if i confess my sins to God and obey what the Holy Spirit tells me, then there would be no need for Jesus to give us the warning "Let no man take thy crown". You see, Calvinism takes away the incentive to keep God's words thinking that God will keep it for you because of their denial of free will.
Are the steps of the wicked man equally ordained by God?
Only God knows what a good man is. The man described in this psalm falls in the 2 categories mentioned in the vídeo.
The issue I find most Christians have when I state I don't believe in osas, is that they think about a believer randomly loosing their salvation, due to sinning, backsliding etc, when that is not what I mean, for me and I believe many others who do not hold to the osas belief, we mean that one can reject their salvation, choose to walk away from it. Getting their names blotted out. They choose to simply walk away from the faith.
This is exactly how I see it. You cannot lose it as you never earned it, but you can reject it and walk away. Thanks so much for aptly saying what my mind was thinking
@@DonieleEdwards you are welcome :)
Agreed! You cannot lose something you could never earn to begin with. However you can reject a gift after it was given. Apostasy is walking away. But can you walk away from something you never walked with??? Like can you give away something you never recieved 🤔. I love listening to Leighton, but I don't think he did well on this or made anything less confusing.
OSAS adherents always seem to have trouble disassociating themselves from "leaving = losing." I'd like to see Dr. Flowers and Dr. Pritchett debate this topic.
WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST:
We are redeemed (Gal 3:13)
We are new creatures (2Cor 5:17)
We are called to be saints (Rom 1:7)
We are accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6)
We have the forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7)
We are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37)
We are Ambassadors for Christ (2Cor 5:20)
We are justified freely by his grace (Rom 3:24)
We are the temple of the living God (2Cor 6:16)
We have redemption through his blood (Eph 1:7)
We have now received the atonement (Rom 5:11)
We are free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2)
We are sons and heirs of God through Christ (Gal 4:7)
We have been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18)
We are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (2Cor 3:3)
We are not our own, for we are bought with a price
(1Cor 6:19-20)
We are not far but now made nigh by the blood of Christ
(Eph 2:13)
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)
We can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth us
(Php 4:13)
We are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12)
We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law
(Rom 3:28)
We are justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9)
We are to endure hardness, as a good soldier of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Tim 2:3)
We are to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Eph 3:9)
We are presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his sight (Col 1:22)
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3)
We are justified by his grace, and made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7)
We are to wait for the Lord Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10)
We are confident that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it (Php 1:6)
We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8)
We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us (Gal 2:20)
We are workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim 2:15)
We are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God (1Cor 6:11)
We are looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
We are persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:38-39)
We are justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(Gal 2:16)
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1Cor 15:57)
And Ye Are Complete in Him (Col 2:10)
Those who teach we can loose our Salvation are LIARS!!!!
I cannot leave the gift of God. I cannot lose the wonderful finished and COMPLETED work for me of Jesus
Where does the bible say you can't leave the gift?
The Bible says we are sealed until the day of the redemption of our bodies. If a person isn't saved, they're bodies will not be redeemed, so this is clearly teaching osas.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
@@carstontoedter1333 THE FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ shows THAT we CANNOT lose it. HE completely paid my entire sin debt
No one knows for sure whether he is saved or not until the judgment. Because if one fails to persevere until the end (Matt 24:13), he will not be saved. That's why St. Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps, after I have preached to others, I myself should become a reprobate." St. Paul, an Apostle, was concerned about the possibility of losing his salvation, thus proving that 'Once Saved, Always Saved', 'Faith alone", or 'Predestined" is a complete lie from Hell, and that the salvation requires a great efforts on our part to truly live according to Our Lord's Commandments of Love and observing All He commanded as taught by His One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Matt 28:20), so that we may be transformed into the True Image and Likeness of Christ (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18); because, we are judged, not by Faith, but according to our deeds and works (Rev 20:13, 22:12. Matt 25:31-46), as only those who OBSERVE All the teachings and persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) are justified (Rom 2:13).
@@carstontoedter1333Ephesians 1, Ephesians 4, the Holy Spirit seals us to the last day
Seminary school, ( I call it Cemetary school) can sometimes ruin sincere individuals seeking the knowledge of Christ. There they are often taught the philosophy and doctrines of men. They often enroll in order to enter the ministry and sometimes come out unbelievers. God calls and makes preachers not seminary schools.
This is true yes
true esp wackjob bob jones
What does "disciple" mean? You can't be a good teacher without being a student first and foremost. :)
Don’t paint with too broad a brush. Some of us were called and went to great seminaries with gifted godly professors. Our experience deepened our knowledge of God and deepened our intimacy with Him. I used to say the same thing until God directed me to go deeper using seminary as a means to seek Him more.
best Bible college is BED SIDE Bible college
Almost everyone has Scriptures that they think supports their stand, but oftentimes in doing so, they sweep under the carpet Scriptures that refute their stand, and actually prove something contradictory to what they're submitting. Flowers has done the same thing. He picks-out only the Scriptures that he thinks are supporting his stand on the subject, while ignoring so many other Scriptures that teach something different. I see this in so many churches - that is why there are so many different denominations as the [entire] Bible is not taken into account.
Amen Paul said work out our Salvation with Fear and Trembling!!!
Yep and amen.
The wisest pastor I've ever listened to is pastor poomen from India. Incredible man of God.
Zac Poonen is his full name, i think.
Gal. 5:4 says that those who depart from grace are severed/separated/cut off from Christ. Shame on anyone that would justify sin and deny the separation of those that do so.
Nonsense. Believing that there is no way you can lose your salvation is dangerous doctrine because people use it yo justify their bad behavior.
I'm sorry but you're taking that to an extreme Granted there are some people that would use that as an excuse But not sincere Believers we are Absolutely confident in eternal security But Absolutely do not believe we can continue to live in sin and be chastened.
@@my1vice Romans 6
Because believing in it allows people to justify their behaviours doesn’t mean it is a dangerous doctrine. For example, if I use your doctrine as an example, people use the loss of salvation to think their works save them.
I respect you and I think you have an authentic faith toward Christ, and I fully understand your point because I myself know a few people justifying their sins that way. And it brakes my heart to see this misconception of His sacrifice.
At the end of the day, the message of the Gospel is so clear that if someone justify his flesh, it is a proof of the hardness of his heart.
I therefore think that an authentic Christian won’t turn his back to Christ.
@olivierdel9567 that's the problem anytime I try to talk to a calvinist. I never Justified sin the Bible does not condone sin. But according to scripture I was crucified with Christ on the cross my sins were paid for past present and future at that time
Every time the topic of you can't lose your salvation comes up that's immediately what people like you want to swing to, people that believe you cannot lose your salvation never Advocate or condone sin but that seems to be your go-to, by the way none of us have stopped sinning including you, according to scripture I died to sin in Christ on the cross that's my identity spiritually even though I still live in this carnal man, I know how wretched I am to the core that's why I depend on the completed finished work of Christ and Christ alone, but you trust in whatever you decide to trust in
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
James 1:12
12 ¶ Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END. Hebrews 3:12-14
Sounds crystal clear to me.
the crown of life is a reward not salvation
The key words are any of you with an evil heart,, this means not having a NEW HEART, not being born again , a new heart IS NOT EVIL So if you are born again you do not have an evil heart anymore. It’s a new heart or Spirit , a new creature OSAS
Good word here, Bro Leighton. Just as when I've taken one of my three children, or now my grandson, across a busy street, their safety is never based on their grip on my hand. Though they may have a grip on my hand, their safety has always been based on my grip on their hand.
From the moment of truly repenting and receiving Jesus by faith, we are safe in His hands. That is how we can praise Him. Otherwise, we will eventually "praise Him" with the view towards, and the thinking that, if I stop, He will stop. We fall into a "works out of fear" relationship. And I'm speaking of a saved individual. Falling "from grace" back into a "works out of fear" of losing Him. And that is never peace, or love, and no joy in Him.
Thanks brother, ain't Jesus good. As He said, "It is finished".☝️
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. (Proverbs 3:10). It’s the whole duty of man, by keeping His commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Jesus said fear Him who can cast body and soul into hell (Luke 12:5). The apostles and even the early church fathers exhorted each other constantly to live in obedience and fear of God, which produces godly repentance, which grants access to unmerited grace for life (2 Corinthians 7:10) for those who love Him. In fact, fearing Him by keeping commandments in Ecclesiastes 12:13 is echoed by Christ in John 14:15 as love. It’s that fear that drives us to Him, and He welcomes us with open arms. It’s that fear of crossing the road that causes us to reach for the hand that He snatches us out of the fire with (Jude 23).
Leighton is not using the King James version..that is me just guessing..because he says that the English language has no perfect tense, but that is not correct..i think..John 3:16..
"whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish"..the tense of the verb " believeth" is a future
perfect tense..meaning that
if a lost person prays asking Christ to come into his heart
forever to stay..& if Christ answers.."yes, i will come into your heart forever to stay"..
then his prayer & he as an individual has enterered into the ears & heart & blood of Christ forever..so..he has
therefore experienced the perfect tense in English as
he enters into Christ..& into eternity..a place where
things never change..it was the faith of Christ that was perfect & unchangable & irrevocable..& the lost person is now in Christ, too..& is saved forever & has the eternal & everlasting
life of Christ in His heart &
spirit..Christ having brought his dead spirit to life forever with Himself within...that is
why once saved is always saved & is also perfectly true.
If you think can lose your salvation, it is because you think your salvation depends on you.
I am not a Calvinist for the record.
YHWH works with convenants, they are agreements between Him and mankind. Like a marriage, there are things that both parties must do. In this case What He does far outweighs what we can ever do and He is perfect, and we are not....however, because of His great love and grace...he requires us to Love Him with our whole heart...He defines this as walking in His commandments, including accepting and putting our faith in his Son, Yeshua our Messiah.
Faith without works is DEAD
@SG-jv5zi You are saved unto good works. You are not saved by your good works. Faith makes you saved. Works show that you are saved.
That’s wonderfully concise.
I appreciate you stating you are not a Calvinist. Somehow Calvinists, which I think is the worse of the doctrines, get credit for OSAS.
OSAS is not a doctrine it is a person. Jesus! I have no trouble with the term OSAS. I think those against this term are anxious that people will use it as license.
Let me break it to them: you are going to continue to sin whether you have a license or not.
I don’t know anyone that thinks you can lose salvation like car keys. Why is that even a consideration?
As I listen to this presentation I appreciate the calm of the speaker and his carefulness not to take verses out of context.
When you are in the family of God in Christ you are eternally saved. Eternal is eternal. God isn’t like us. We throw people away and disown them.
I think some Christians have higher standards than God.
We are saved because of him. The inner man doesn’t continue to sin. It’s a bit of a mystery that is undone because of the sacrifice of Christ.
@@SG-jv5ziso you depend on your work?
Jesus taught eternal life was from him by being born again. John 3:3, John 3:15,16 John 6:40,47. He is the author
What is eternal life?
Finally! It’s nice to hear someone echo the same thing. We fight and divide over semantics, verbiage, wording., and phrases. I’ve been saying this for quite some time now. Thank you sir!
Finally! Great BIBLICAL teaching on Soteriology. Thanks so much Dr. Flowers.
Jesus said, "Whoever believe in Me shall have rivers of living water bubbling up inside." Do you have that? If not, then you are not saved! Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshilohWhat a dumb statement. Did you read more than one page? You think like a charismatic, and they don't understand the Bible very much at all. Just look at that idiot Copeland.
@@kenshilohChristians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted.
Mark 13:22
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Revelation 3:16
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@kenshilohwhere did Jesus say that
@@tomtemple69 John 7.38. Referring to the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, "Whoever believes in Me shall have rivers of living water bubbing up inside of him." Does it shock you, as it does me, that so many Christians seem to shrug their shoulders and say, "Whatever that means!" However, the contrapositive of this saying is, "If you do not have rivers of living water, neither do you believe in Christ." The Holy Spirit, Who is like rivers of living water, is essential to salvation!
The sole criteria of whether someone makes it to heaven or not is if they know Christ. He died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Easily the BEST commentary I've ever heard on this topic. Thanks again Dr Flowers!
At the 7:18 mark said it all. Yes, one can walk away from Salvation. One can be saved (present tense) and choose to walk away from that salvation. To say that you cannot do so ignores Scriptures and turns the New Covenant into a one sided promise. Christ did not say, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth, at least at one point, in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Eternal Security is neither eternal nor secure until we die.
Finish the race, endurance until the end, unless God shortened the days , name can be blotted out of the book of life, Laodicean Church spewed out of. His mouth ! Sorry didn't agree with your ideas ! Where can I email you? 🙏
Dear Brother, what is the role of Satan then on truely saved Christians? 1 Peter 5:8.
Luke 8:13?
1Thimothy6:10?
Hebrew 3:12?
Jude 1:5?
2 Peter 2:20?
1 Thimorhy 5:8?
1 Thimothy 5:12, 15?
When the verses say the words as "faith or believe" in the scripture, why you people add 'genuine' before faith or believe?
Referring to Minute 32 - I just think that when he says "let them be cursed" in Galatians that's not the statement of simply correcting an error, that's a very strong statement of condemnation. He never says anything that strong even to the Corinthians. That sounds like he considered they were truly in danger of forfeiting their salvation and going from a place of being blessed to a place of being cursed. I just feel like those who believe in the perseverance of the saints minimize warning statements in Galatians and Hebrews. They make them less dire and or hypothetical.
We are saved by faith in Christ. So wee need to keep that salvific faith in Christ. Once a person renounces that faith, which is of course not very common, that person has no more salvation. Again, it's not about works; it's about faith, meaning if someone abandons their faith in Christ, then they are abandoning their salvation. But God is so merciful that even they may come back to reconciliation and eventually be saved. God bless.
What about "These things I write unto you so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal Life " If I RECEIVED/HAVE Eternal Life, then, by definition, it CANT end. If it EVER did, it couldn't have been eternal, could it? However, JESUS SAID IT WAS...No argument can be mounted against that.
@@davidhollingsworth864 Eternal life, by definition, is eternal, everlasting; that's not being argued against. So it's not about whether or not eternal life is eternal; it's about whether HAVING that eternal life is eternal or not.
We don't have eternal life in and of ourselves. We have eternal life IN Christ. So we are to remain IN Christ by faith until we die in order to keep our salvation. There many verses that teach that life is found only in God, for instance, John 5:26, "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself,”.
In conclusion, we see that God the Father and the Son of God have life in Themselves, but we as believers have life, not in ourselves, but in Christ Jesus.
@@VictorFelipe82 Don't use semantics to try to deny the essence of 1 John 5: 13-15...these things I write unto you so that you may KNOW that YOU HAVE eternal life...not that you would know that eternal MEANS eternal - that's LUDICROUS! I HAVE, I POSSESS, I HAVE OBTAINED God's GIFT which, again, by DEFINITION, means that it MUST endure forever; and that, after I have GENUINELY repented (which MUST occur BEFORE I can even TRULY receive salvation...), I have PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE! At that point, my going to Heaven is AUTOMATIC. My VERY REPENTANCE assures I will not go back into PRACTICING sin, the Holy Spirit then SEALS me and is the DOWN PAYMENT until the final Day, with God HIMSELF promising that "He that BEGAN a good work in you will PERFORM IT until the Day of Jesus Christ." The Bible is CLEAR - It is God WHO KEEPS US! The real MOTIVE of those who deny eternal security is ROOTED in our sinful flesh's DEMAND for a YARDSTICK to measure up to, so that Christ ALONE is denied the GLORY of saving them...After all, Lord, you couldn't have done it without my help...Yet, what did Jesus tell us? "Don't be afraid, ONLY believe."
We who believe abide in Christ, but it is also true that Christ also abides in us…. Because his Word abides in us
Christ equipped his children with a Faith that will never Fail us
Thanks Brother, you have clarified many issues that I have been struggling with for years!
I have to say that I love your videos speaking out against Calvinism. However, I couldn't help but notice you use the same tactics Calvanist do to defend perseverance of the saints. First, take note that at about 7:10 in the video you try to say that you don't believe in perseverance of the saints in the same way as the Calvinist do. Then to justify that claim, you argue about how you do not believe in the other 4 points of Calvinism. It doesn't logically follow that your "perseverance of the saints" is the somehow different simply because you disagree with the other 4 points of Calvinism. In reality, you are a one point Calvinist, even if you don't see it. The only difference is that you reject the other four points, so it isn't that you reject Calvinism's version of the "P" in TULIP, you just believe that salvation is resistible, we are not all totally depraved without any ability to choose salvation, the atonment isn't limited, and election isn't unconditional. Denying the TULI is not evidence that your "P" is somehow different. That's okay if you really believe the "P" is true biblically, but you can't logically say you are not a 1-point Calvinist simply because the group of saints that can persevere is larger in your view. The "P" is not about the amount to saints that are persevering... The amount of saints has to do with the "T", "L" and the "U". The "P" is about how those saints cannot choose to be unsaved. It denies free will too, and I hope you'll see that.
I've had the best success pulling people out of Calvinism by focusing on the "P" first. It is so easy to show it. Look at Rev 2:1-7. Was the pastor and church in Ephesus not saved? Then how are they about to lose their "candlestick" unless they repent? I have about dozen more examples to show that perseverance of the saints is unbiblical, but I would encourage you to have the same kind of open mind that allowed you to reject the "TULI" and look again at the "P" with fresh eyes.
The second thing that made me cringe a little was your phrase "If saved, then saved eternally". That is 100% Calvinism. When we show biblical evidence that people can fall away, Calvinist come back by questioning their initial salvation... every... single... time. "Well they must have not actually been elect then..."... sound familiar? Again, Look at Rev 2:1-7... can we truly question the salvation experience of the church in Ephesus? It is recorded in Acts 19:1-6. They "WERE" saved, but still needed to repent or risk not having access to the tree of life. Read it and read it and read it until you see it. There is no "if saved", they were most definitely saved and still needed to repent because they left their first love.
Again at 11:55, you say "even if they "seemingly" accepted the Gospel earlier in life". The use of the word "seemingly" means you are questioning their salvation experience, like Calvinist dismiss people that leave by saying they were never elect in the first place. So, you don't believe that people can actually leave their salvation once they have it... you simply believe that they never genuinely accepted the gospel in the first place. This is the same as Calvinism. You try to follow up again by arguing that it is somehow different from Calvinism, but you don't compare it to the "P" in Calvinism, you compare it to the "T, U, and L". You need to stop and thoughtfully compare your "if saved, saved eternally" idea to only the "P" in Calvinism's "TULIP" without bringing up the "T, U, L, or I". Just compare apples to apples, and you'll find it is exact the same.
Edit:
I hope that my tone doesn't sound hateful, or arrogant, or anything negative. I'm truly speaking from my heart. I love what you are doing, and I'm praying you considered these words with an open mind. I'm on your side.
@AVB2 God doesn't make mistakes, but we do, and there's no reason to forget any passage. There's a difference between you forsaking God and God forsaking you.
@AVB2 You've created a false dichotomy. We don't need 44 passages that claim that all humans affirmatively chose God. Instead, we can show that God has offered Himself as a choice, and demonstrate how people and even angels have historically not accepted that choice.
Lucifer was in Heaven and yet chose to rebel. He was instantly cast out along with 1/3 of the angels. Heaven is as saved as we humans are ever going to get, and yet, Lucifer was there and then cast out. We know that God didn't forsake Lucifer because as you've aptly stated, God does do the forsaking. Therefore, Lucifer forsook God and Heaven by choosing rebellion instead of God.
Adam and Eve did the exact same thing in the garden. They were in paradise. There was no evil, and no sin. It was God's will for them to live there forever, and it was God's will for them to not eat the forbidden fruit. However, they did eat that fruit because despite God's will, Adam and Eve wielded their own free will to reject God. They were cast out of Eden. God didn't forsake Adam and Eve, because there are 44 passages that says God doesn't do that, but yet they were separated. So, who did the forsaking?
If we didn't have free-will, we couldn't have eaten the forbidden fruit, we couldn't have broken any of Moses's law, and we couldn't sin today. We choose sin with free will, or we choose God by repenting of our sins. If we didn't have free will, Lucifer would still be in Heaven and Adam would still be in Eden.
2 Peter 3:9 tells us what God's will is:
1. That none should perish.
2. That all should repent.
Therefore, if anyone perishes, then they defied God's will with their own free will.
Likewise, if anyone does not repent, then they defy God's will with their own free will.
The only other option is to claim that God forces us to repent, and that no one is going to perish. We know that isn't true. Calvinist don't believe that no one is going to perish. No one does. So, either we have free will or we all go to Heaven according to 2 peter 3:9.
Here are some other examples of saved people not choosing God later:
Hebrews 6:1-6
Revelation 2:1-7
2 Peter 2:19-22
@AVB2
Foreknowledge does not negate free-will. Just because God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, does not mean that it was His will that they would sin. He told them His will. Do not eat of the fruit. They did. This is a common fallacy that I hear from Calvinist.
You claim dead people can’t do things, but:
Jesus was dead, and He did something. He rose from the dead by the power of the Spirit (Rom 1:4). And, we can also be raised from the dead by that same Spirit: (Rom 8:11). And how might we receive this Spirit? By repenting and being baptized. (Acts 2:38)
You claim that a dead man can’t do anything, but they asked Peter what can we DO in Acts 2:37, and Peter said… repent and be baptized.
The analogy is terrible to be honest. Keep creating false dichotomies and non sequiturs. It would be best if you stuck only to scripture… Sola scriptura.
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3-5)
There is no glory in repentance. The issue is not glory as your analogy portrays. The issue is responsibility. Salvation is Gods work. God gets all the glory. Repentance is our responsibility, or we will perish. Not my words… that’s what Jesus said.
@31:10, "I don't see those categories of people in scripture." Hebrews 3:14 (and about 50 other verses like it) all warn you must hold your genuine faith until the end or risk being lost. There is simply no reason for Paul to give this warning (over and over and over again) unless he really thought it was possible for believers to walk away from their faith and pay the eternal consequences of it. I'm sticking with Michael Brown (and the apostle Paul) on this one.
If a perfectly created being like Satan can go against God - What more men with their sinful carnal bodies.
Once Saved Always Saved is a device created by Satan to deceive the masses.
Until you are glorified with a body like Christ, a body higher than of angels, only then you can say you are truly Saved.
In the mean time BE ON YOUR GUARD - 1 Pet 5:8
Amen
Well I don't find that angels mind you 3rd heaven angels don't have free will. That's a lie from the pit of "Hell"
No where in the bible does it say that angels are under the law of sin and death. The word angel can refer to people or actual celestial angels and people conflate the two mostly to support their doctrine of fallen angels
@@a-aron6724 - Hell is created for angels that committed sins.
Sin already existed before the Law of sin and death was given to mankind.
so, what is sin?
What’s the blood of Jesus to you? Powerless, chopped liver?
I do not like the phrase once saved always saved the more appropriate would be the Biblical word eternal security and yes we are guaranteed eternal security and scripture
Thank you for sharing this study it has been a blessing for me to hear and receive more clarity on the topic of salvation. It truly means a lot and I appreciate your heart and humility. God bless you!
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted.
Mark 13:22
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Revelation 3:16
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I always admire your graciousness and clarity. I’d love to see you chat with Trent Horn one day. You are both bright and irenic and full of the love of Christ. Peace!
You cannot lose salvation. Sound doctrine.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:-1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.-Isaiah 55:3
Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.-Isaiah 55:13
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.-Acts 13:34
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.-Acts 13:38-39
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.-John 6:35-40
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.-John 20:29
Believe on Him and love one another. Do unto others as you have them do unto you. As you sow so shall you reap in this life and the next. The law is established by grace and made void by the precepts of men that deny His testimonies of tender mercy.
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.-Mathew 21:28-31
Let your yes be a yes and your no a no. Dead faith is simply cold. They have done what is their duty to do. Hot faith is perfected by works and the lukewarm is the first son who denies Him and His testimony and so He denies them by spitting them out of His mouth. He never knew them. The will of the Father is that He should lose nothing.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-John 3:16
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,-Hebrews 13:20
I think if he had a conversation with Trent Horn it would be worth watching!
Even Trent Horn is a heretic , i do think it would be a good convo.
@@JR-yj8ig none of those show you cant lose your salvation
@@fredarroyo7429 Once God blots you out that’s it. There is no reproving a reprobate mind it is then impossible to for them to be restored to repentance which is to turn from the power of sin to the power of God. Blessed are they who do hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled. And Jesus said I am the bread of life he believes on Me shall never hunger and never thirst. That’s Christ teaching imputed righteousness and that never runs out.
I don't understand this argument that once saved always saved means Calvinism. I reject Calvinism predestination/pre-election, but I embrace the fact of being born again/saved from death by grace through faith. But, unto good works. Faith saves. But faith saves you unto something. Future good works/growth in right living.
OSAS can mean either Calvinism or Free Grace. Calvinism teaches OSAS because God will (supposedly) guarantee that you will never fall away. God keeps you. And if you do fall away, then Calvin would say that you were never saved in the first place. How convenient, huh. Calvinism clings to OSAS by saying that someone who was saved and then fell away was never saved to begin with.
Free Grace folks teach OSAS also but not because God forces you to be saved and stay saved. They teach that once you get saved, nothing can ever change the fact that you were declared to have eternal life when you believed on Jesus. They teach you can live in deliberate sin, be a child of the devil, and completely reject God and Jesus after salvation and you will still have eternal life. In other words, they have noodles for brains!
He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard. Col 1:22-23.
No mere mortal has eternal security until they are securely in Eternity - Ben Witherington.
And why would they have it there?
Satan didn't.
@@georgechristiansen6785 satan didn't have what it takes. You didn't know that?
@@gavinhurlimann2910 And humans do?
@@georgechristiansen6785 Satan was never promised eternal life by the Father, we are.
@@TheScriptureTruth And........
Christians allegedly have eternal life NOW and still sin.
Dear Dr. Flowers, For Biblical reference to the third category that you you don't see mentioned in Scripture, let me point you to 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" To say that these people whom the Spirit is expressly talking about as "backslidden" is incorrect as backslidden and "depart from the faith" are two very different things. To say that those whom the Spirit is speaking of were "never saved" is also incorrect as you cannot depart from something that you have never been a part of.
A lot of people like to gloss over this or try to explain it away as meaning something else but when they do that, they are, in effect, calling the Holy Spirit a liar.
The reality is that the audience of the 4 gospels and the book of Hebrews is completely Jewish in nature. The audience of the epistles of Paul is the body of Christ in this present age of grace. The epistles of Paul talk about an assurance of a present salvation that is sealed upon faith that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again on the third day (1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 2:8-9). It talks about assurance of salvation and salvation as a transaction rather than a process in Romans 8:38-39, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30 and other places. The Hebrew epistles speak of salvation as something future, to attain through endurance til the end. We must simply rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15) and divide God's prophecy program from his mystery program. The body of Christ (God's mystery program) is not the nation of Israel (God's prophecy program). The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel. God made clear earthly promises to the nation of Israel that he will keep and fulfill when the times of refreshing have come (yet future).
Fatally mistaken in one respect. This is a very gracious and well-defended presentation as usual by Mr. Flowers. I do Respectfully disagree in one aspect that I think is critical. A true believing Christian can stop believing, but that Christian will not lose his salvation. Ultimately, it is the faithfulness of God that will keep that Christian saved, not the Christian’s faithfulness or continued belief that will keep himself saved. See 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 2:13. This is an important, practical, destiny distinction, because it is only the person who has abandoned ALL faith in himself for his salvation and placed it in Christ that is saved.
Romans 4:4-5 NKJV
[4] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. [5] But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (emphasis supplied)
I am not suggesting antinomianism. A Christian SHOULD always be striving to become more like his Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 6:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-10. But ultimately it is the unbreakable promise of God that we should be relying upon, rather than our continued faithfulness or belief, for our salvation. See John 5:24; 6:35; 6:39-40; 6:47: 10:28-29; 14:27-28; Romans 4:16; 5:8-11; 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 4:30; 1 Peter 1:4-5.
That's not what St. Paul thought. Why do you think he kept re-visiting and writing to his prior congregations?
@@bazzy8376 Did Paul claim he was writing and visiting to ensure they didnt lose their salvation?
You’re under the impression that we work in order to be saved. OSAS believers are mistaken in this as well.
We don’t work to be saved
We work because we are saved
We work as proof we are saved
@@joshcordon7114 how are osas believers mistaken given your statements?
@@MarkNOTW OSAS believers are under the impression that those that don’t subscribe to OSAS think that we are able to receive salvation because of our works.
That is not at all the case.
We are saved through faith in Christ. Christ is first and foremost. You can’t attain salvation through works without faith.
But faith and works are both required.
As the word says
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
Sad to see Dr. Flowers support such a false idea about salvation. He mentions Paul's address to the Galatians and maintains that the believers in the churches of Galatia could fall from grace and still be saved. So what he is saying is that you can add works of the law to your faith (which is why Paul said they would fall from grace), and still be saved. Paul makes it abundantly clear that no one will be saved by works of the law. Dr. Flowers does not mention the other issue in Gal 5:1-4 that if you go back to keeping the law, you will be alienated from Christ. If you are alienated from Christ, you are no longer IN Christ. In Col 1:21-23, Paul tells the believers in Colosse that they were once alienated from Christ until God reconciled them and will present them holy and blameless before Him if they continue in their faith. So how can the Galatians who were in Christ, become alienated from Christ and yet still be saved when they have returned to the state (alienated) that they were before coming to Christ?
There are two separate paths to leaving your faith. One is by going back to the law and trying to be justified by it and the other is by going back to a life of sin. In one single chapter of Galatians (ch 5), Paul shows the end result of doing either of those. We have already looked at verses 1-4 about adding works of the law. The other way is mentioned in verses 19-21. If you go back to living a life of sin (of which Paul mentions a whole host of), you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I think Jesus meant it when he said that if you endure to the end, you will be saved.
The implication here, from what your stating, is that, once saved, one never sins again. I hope that's not what you're saying, because I would postulate the notion that neither you, nor I, make it thru a single day of our lives without sinning somehow, someway.
@@gregpierce9800 Don't know why I didn't get an email notification of your reply, but I just happened to come across it now. I am not at all stating that one never sins again once saved. That is not what Paul is saying either. He states that those who LIVE like this (in acts of the sinful nature) will not see the kingdom. Hebrews makes it crystal clear be referring to those who "deliberately keep on sinning." If you deliberately keep on sinning, you are not repenting or trying to overcome the sin.
You can deny Jesus even when you undoubtedly know the fullness of Jesus as Messiah. Peter witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus in all His glory, and not too long after denied Jesus three times. People all too often underestimate the illogical nature of man. There are times when people just don't make any sense at all. Only God truly knows how to discern any man, and for anyone other than God to say to certain Christians they were never really saved is to speak without any wisdom or understanding, like parrots who think they're Christians
@AVB2 true, and no disagreements to any of the Scripture you given. And it is also true that it is God who chooses us, but that doesn't mean we do not choose God also. Us choosing God does not negate God choosing us, rather the emphasis is on God choosing us. Though God is the one with all the authority, that doesn't mean that we are no longer responsible for what we do, or that we don't have a say so in the matter as a child of God. As much as this would seem improbable, love would cease to be love if love was forced on us. As much as God's love was not forced on Adam and Eve in their choice to sin, God also does not force His love on us. Do you have any rebellious teenage children turning into adults? What happens when you force your love on them? You realize way too quickly that your love that you force on your children is not love anymore
Interesting. I was initially hesitant when I saw this come up because I thought I would disagree more (since I’m more of the free grace view) but I pretty much agree. There are small differences I would have, such as I don’t think people remain justified due to God’s provision, but instead, Gods faithfulness. But I’m not sure the distinction is all that significant. Anyways, good take on this.
wadda you meeeme?!
So you dont believe that repentance is required for salvation?
Vocab needs to watch some Leighton 😊
@@Tatiana-cp1fc Whaddo you meme, approves this message ;)
@@whaddoyoumeme Hey man! This is how I've been trying to explain this on your live streams last couple days.
Hebrews 6:4-8 states clearly that if someone who has "shared in the Holy Spirit" falls away, not only are they no longer saved, but they can't be brought back to repentance. It seems to me apostasy after being with the Holy Spirit is not only possible, but also permanent. There is a lot of eisegesis concerning that chapter of the Bible, but it clearly states that people indwelt with the Holy Spirit can fall away, and can not again be brought to repentance. So yes, there is a category 3, clearly supported by the Bible.
We have to be careful not to always take English translations at face value, but to investigate the true meaning. Because this one verse can’t possibly undo all the other verses in seemingly contradiction to it. God always forgives those who confess and repent and He always implores us to turn back to Him. The verb in this passage is a present particle. Meaning while it is ongoing. But also, you really have to think about what actually is “falling away”. To some that is drinking one sip of beer, or one sin, or maybe going through a 6 month period of bad decisions. But what would constitute as true falling away. And at any point anyone can change their minds or be brought back to repentance. I know without a doubt if someone prays and asks forgiveness from God with a true repentant heart, He will not cast out. And remember, with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. I would never treat anyone as a lost cause and I don’t think anyone should treat themselves as a lost cause either. It’s His will that none should perish but all come to repentance. My sister has “left church”, but it is God’s will for her to come back to Him- rather than live in unrepentant sin. It couldn’t possibly be that God would turn her away if she came back to Him. That’s just not what the whole counsel of God teaches. I don’t say any of this to argue, but to spread the message of hope for anyone who thinks they are without hope. And if you feel you are without hope please keep digging into this. He is always found by those who seek Him.
@@ericashepherd9777 Hey, I'm just pointing out what Scripture actually says, not what we would like it to say. And you are correct; Scripture must gel, and so while Hebrews 6:4-8 must gel with all the other verses, all the other verses must also gel with this verse. And let's be frank here; the subject of assured salvation is full of eisegisis. Every time I see someone try to support this concept with Scripture I see them string along multiple verses that do not explicitly state that salvation is assured, but rather support that interpretation if one were to come up with the idea outside of Scripture.
@@ericashepherd9777 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”- 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” Mark - 3:28-30
Im sure yall will just say it means something else, but it explains what Edward is saying. So no one verse doesnt undo anything.
You just dont understand what falling away is. Backsliding is not the same thing. Falling away is knowing the Holy Spirit and then deciding you dont want to follow Jesus. Its a willful action that you are completely aware of. Its not something you do by accident. You do what satan did when you fall away.
Yea I just read Hebrews 6:4-8 again.... yea for me I think that's pretty hard to argue against. But we don't always know who's really tasted the fruits of the spirit, and who's stll on their way there (except for ourselves... I hope).
@@mastershake4641 Exactly. And we have to be careful not to take the bait and switch here. The verse about tasting the spirit and falling away is not the most important part of that passage. It is the part where it says one cannot be brought back to repentance because Jesus cannot be crucified again. This 100% gels with Jesus' comment about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Luke 12:10, another verse where I hear a lot of pretty interpretations that seem to amount to eisegesis. And to be sure, I'm not suggesting the Catholics and Orthodox are 100% right about this; rather I'm suggesting the Bible says things, and we should not try to make it fit our interpretation, but rather adjust our interpretation to fit what the Bible actually says. Those other individuals are great at guiding us, but they were all flawed human beings as well.
I find the Arminian perspective is much more in line with Apostolic teachings in that salvation is a process not a free meal ticket into the kingdom of God. David Pawson points out that modern theology presents a half baked gospel that does not produce maturity within the believer and that there is a lack of a Holy fear of God to stop sinning. Within the Scriptures, Salvation is seen as Past, Present and Future, all Salvation, God’s Grace and Eternal security passages of Scripture is seen in context with adjectives of conditions that are required for entry to the kingdom of God. There are no short cuts without showing the works of your faith. The Seven Churches in Revelation are judged according to their works not because they asked for a ticket.
This way of looking at it makes a lot more sense to me. The tricky part for anyone who believes that the future is settled form God's perspective is that God would be relating to a person who is on the road to salvation but will ultimately fall away as though he were a child of God even though He knows that in the end that individual will reject Him. If on the other hand you believe that the future is in part open even to God, then there is no conflict.
Cris Jones submission is a word that is not preached about these days and the lack of fear of God’s wrath on those who rebel against His commandments is something we need to be reminded of. The Early Christians recited the Lord’s Prayer to remind us to keep in step with God’s will.
I believe that being backslidden is the same as one who was once saved and now lost. Paul himself warned about being a castaway. He talked about those who had made shipwreck of their faith. Demas departed having loved this present world. There are so many places in the scriptures that describe those who have once walked with Christ and went away. Here in the area that we live in there are those who believe that all you have to do to be saved is make a one time profession of faith and then you can just carry on with life living basically like an unbeliever but you will of course ultimately be saved. I just can’t see this. I’m afraid that there will be many people who are eternally lost because they believed that they could not be lost 😢
Even Calvinists own T.U.L.I.P. contradicts itself - IF Faith cannot come before regeneration or it is considered a WORK then how can Persevering not also be a WORK?
All their complications to try to explain things, their twisting the meaning of simply clear scripture verses - redefining the meanings of specific words like 'elect' & 'predestination' & who is elect or predestined for what . . . makes my brain hurt to try to think that hard.
God bless your ministry, Leighton!!!
With the utmost respect, those of you making the argument that people “leave the faith” and “fall away” while quoting verses which reflect these things aren’t contending with my conclusions.
I’m not denying that there are people who once claimed to believe in Jesus who stop claiming to believe in Jesus, or who deny Him altogether (ie leave the faith/fall away, etc).
I’m explaining that all those people must fit into one of 3 categories and not one of us know which of the three they are in. I have concluded that 2 of the categories sufficiently reconcile the biblical passages regarding “apostates.” Others theologians conclude that there are 3 categories, which is understandable. But for all practical purposes adding the third is irrelevant when it comes to how we treat the person in their unbelief. It’s purely speculative.
The ONLY difference is semantical within the back room talk of theologians in how we define justification (forensically from the divine eternal perspective, or temporally from our perspective...ie the fruit vs the root).
So...If Derek abandons the faith he is either lost or backslidden, and we can’t know which. Those are the only 2 options. Whether or not he was really once justified in the eyes of God or not is pure speculation on our part and makes no difference in how we should approach Derek in his rebellion. The difference is semantical (ie how you define your terms).
Makes sense yes 👍
Fair enough. Since your conclusions were on the practical side of things, it's true that most christians will treat Derek the same regardless of whether or not they're Calvinists, Arminians (OSAS or not), Provisionists (OSAS or not).
But just like you focus on the theological side of things when it comes to Calvinism (You often deplore the fact that Calvinists only see 2 options where there may be more), so too, some people here are simply having a backroom talk on the theological side of this issue (deploring that OSAS only see 2 options where there may be more), but I don't think anybody here disagree with your conclusions on the practical side. That's why nobody is contending with them.
Dear Dr Flowers,
The point is that even if we define justification forensically from the divine eternal perspective, still God provides warnings for His people; and warnings are given when there is a potential risk (not from the side of God, but the believer’s). We know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8.1). They are the “potential” ones who “can” abandon their faith, because their ability to depart from faith is not removed by God’s justifying declaration. My problem with your view is: how can false Christians or unsaved people apostatize if they don’t have true faith, they are not in Christ?
With Love in Christ.
@@ht5869 I honestly think it boils down to God's foreknowledge. Yes, I think it's our responsibility to keep the faith but I also think that genuine faith is not fleeting and that God knows if it's genuine and if it's genuine the Holy Spirit seals us and Jesus will never lose any of his sheep. So I think the key to understanding this is the foreknowledge of God which is from the end to the beginning and out of time, He is in the past and the future at the same time. He knows our heart and He knows what we will do because He has already lived with us in eternity future and He knows our thoughts and intentions. He seals and predestines those He foreknows and those He predestines he also calls, justifies and will glorify. At the end of the day, we need to live out our faith and persevere in the face of trials because that is what we are called to do. And of course, foreknowledge is not causation. He pursues us before salvation and he sustains us with His Spirit when we are saved but He doesn't cause us to believe or to keep the faith because that's up to us. But, again, genuine faith endures and He knows our hearts.
@@Franci0242 Thank you my brother. I understand your point of view. However, if God's foreknowledge does not cause - as I also believe it, then it means a true believer has an actual possibility of departing from faith. (When I say true believer I mean a wholehearted person who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit.) From God's perspective, it seems natural that God provides warnings on a potential risk a true believer may have still on earth, even if that risk is minimal. Then, those warnings are, in fact, one of the ways how God cares about His children, as God warned Adam and Eve in Garden of Eden... understanding it otherwise, it seems totally inconsistent. It would be like adopting the Calvinistic view of unconditional election, bit instead of having it before the foundation of the world, we would locate it at the time of justification. Love in Christ.
Way to many warnings of falling away and blotted out disqualified, to many about being found unworthy or broken off and cast into Fire... I can’t turn more than a couple pages without warnings to remain in Christ
Amen
Once saved always saved from the moment you believe
Exactly, for it's impossible to UNdo something you had nothing to do with in the 1st place.
Exactly 💯 , for a channel that's called Soteriology 101 this isn't very sound , it's sounds like he's got a lot of Calvinism in him still
Dr. Flowers mentions the three categories: 1) once saved, now lost 2) backslidden and 3) never saved. He then states that he believes that only categories 2 and 3 can a person be an apostate. I think he has it exactly backwards. You can only be an apostate if you once believed but no longer do (once saved, now lost). You cannot apostatize from a faith you never had (never saved). Merriam Webster defines apostasy as: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION
That cannot apply to an unbeliever (one who was never saved).
Nor can apostasy apply to one who is merely backslidden. Though he may be producing wood, hay, and straw, his works will be burned up but he will still be saved (1 Cor 3:15). Such a one has not apostatized but is a carnal Christian.
Only the person who is saved and then defects from the faith and is then lost can be considered apostate. He has abandoned his faith.
@@Robert-xp4bn My guess is that you have a very superficial understanding of scripture. OSAS is a completely unscriptural doctrine created by man. I guess I could say that you are living proof of that. You claim to have been a believer but are no more!
You say, "Your beliefs, your will, your thoughts , your religion determines exactly ZERO about eternity." Even a cursory reading of the bible will reveal that God holds man accountable for his beliefs and actions. Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct when you refer to man's mind as "unintelligent, emotional, fickle, feeble, frightened, (and) fleshly." Even if all of that were true, God has provided us with everything we need to come to faith in Christ and to live a life pleasing to him. He does not leave us incapable of responding to him. He draws us to himself, provides for the forgiveness of sins through Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross, requires no works of the law to be fulfilled but only faith in what Christ has done for us, and has placed the Holy Spirit within us to empower us to live for him. He has made it very simple. As the writer to the Hebrews puts it: "how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?"
You seem to have a fatalistic view of scripture.
I find scripture as profoundly inspiring, comforting, and encouraging.
Interesting. Robert, then, is apostate. Very interesting analysis. Robert is glad he chose to rebel. One has to ask, how genuine, was his professed belief. To know something for a certainty, then say, well that's not true, how certain was he?
@@Robert-xp4bn Tell it to God at the Judgement. I'll wave as a big angel drags you to the fire
Stand tall then, we all find out in the end
@@Robert-xp4bn Oh, I hear you, you say there is no such thing as sin
I really appreciate your videos - they have helped me to have an intellectual response to Calvinism. Thank you so much! I know it was just an illustration, but have you ever considered investigating flat earth ? True science and the Scriptures actually reveal through sound evidence a planar non rotating earth with a dome covering above. There seems to be an awakening to this, and other truths. We need to be people of truth and love.
So if a guy gets on a plane and flies straight east long enough, he gets back to his starting point after going around the whole globe. How does that work on a flat surface with a dome covering?
I used to be a once saved always saved girl myself. Until the Lord convicted me and washed me from a lifestyle of sin. A once Born Again child of God gloriously filled with the spirit I fell back into sin and for 5 years was blindly living a life of sin all the while thinking that I was a child of God. I even went to church in this condition and once convicted it took me a YEAR for my eyes to fully be open to the height that I had fallen from.
The spirit of God began to minister to me and I began to see just exactly what had happened and why. This once saved always saved Doctrine was nothing more than a license to sin and live in it without conviction because the light had been removed and the spirit was absent! I was blinded once again in sin just as if I had never been saved... but I thought I was saved. as the spirit of God began to minister more and more I went to him in prayer and I said you have shown me the truth now show me what I can do. so here I am.
John 15 1-10Jesus clearly states that if a man remains in him bearing fruit then shall he be my disciples. He States every branch in me that bears no fruit is taken away and burned. He did not say once connected always connected there's a contingency based upon remaining in him. Remaining in the Vine. The problem that occurs is that folks do not remain in the Vine. When they don't remain in the Vine they do not produce fruits unto repentance scripture is clear that father God will cut it down and it is to be burned. This is parallel to what Paul spoke of in Hebrews chapter 6 and verse 8 in that which Bears thorns and Briars is rejected near to cursing whose end is to be burned.
2 Peter 2 amplifies this ..vs 20 for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled and overcome the latter end is worse for them than the beginning for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness then after they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them but this is happened unto them according to the true proverb the dog is turned again to his own vomit and the sow has returned to her wallowing in the mud.
Ezekiel 18:24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die"
Folks have been bamboozled by the once saved always saved lie. It's the same lie that Satan presented to Eve in the Garden of Eden. It's the same old tactic with a different label. Genesis 3:4 and the serpent said to the woman YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE for God does know that in the day that you eat thereof then your eyes shall be opened and you shall be as Gods knowing Good and Evil. In the same way this false Doctrine teaches sins are forgiven past present and future...it teaches no need for repentance or self-examination why, you are above sinning...past present and future sin is abolished. You've already received your crown!! Live as you like..when scripture is very clear from Isaiah 59 that sin is the number one thing that SEPARATES us from God. it neglects the fact that we need to have a clean conscience before God. It denies that we have to be ready waiting and watching for the Master's return. Ready waiting and watching requires self-examination and a repentant heart before the throne of grace. if you're once saved always saved you have no need to walk in holiness and without it the Bible says None will see the Lord. Once saved always saved is a cloak for sin when the Bible says to submit ourselves and humble ourselves and to crucify our flesh.
Once once saved always saved is quite possibly one of the largest deceptions and contributors to the great Falling Away spoken of in second Thessalonians 2 and 1st Timothy chapter 4. While it promises comfort and eternal security it is a false security and a very deceptive slippery slope AWAY from Christ and OUTSIDE of the vine to those who wrap themselves in it. You have no need of Him any longer! You've believed the lie! Jude explained this deseptive doctrine to perfection..For certain people have crept in unnoticed [just as if they were sneaking in by a side door]. They are ungodly persons whose condemnation was predicted long ago, for they distort the grace of our God into decadence and immoral freedom [viewing it as an opportunity to do whatever they want], and deny and disown our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you are fully informed once for all, that [e]the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe [who refused to trust and obey and rely on Him
This Doctrine portrays only the love of God and it neglects the Holiness of God. God has not nor will he ever change for he has said I am the Lord I change not. One is either born again or they are not. They either have the spirit of God or they do not. if they are born again then they will not remain in their sin or continue in a lifestyle of sin and still have the Holy Spirit for the scriptures are very clear that it is sin that separates us from God.
A child of God will not run around and Tout that they are above falling, they fear God, humble themselves understanding that he REQUIRES abiding in him, faithful service and a commited life to overcoming the World the Flesh and the devil just as Christ did but also knowing and Remembering The Words of Christ that any man putting his hand to the plow and then turn back is not fit for the kingdom of God. They begin to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling just as Paul said. They walk in daily communion and obedience to the savior.
it's my prayer that anyone reading this would carefully consider through the lens of scripture where they stand. That they would examine the scriptures for themselves and let the spirit of God teach them and direct them and guide them into all truth. Jesus says straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few are found therein. once saved always saved is a very welcomed and famously preached Doctrine by many respected pastors but if you could have a bird's eye view into the throne room where they stand and give an account for what they have taught in error I'm sure one would shutter in fear...
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour..
1 Peter 5:8
Hello i dont have any side of this argument because I'm still questioning it . I'm here to ask questions only . So for me both exist in the bible like osas has theirs and those who dont believe in osas has theirs . So basically from what i understand you can never lose your salvation but can forfeit it . I want to know your opinion on this statement sis. I once have a question on an osas believer and what he's been saying is making me confused . He said yes we have a choice but you cannot lose your salvation either you never had it because you lose your faith .
When i first hear of this doctrine i have thought the same things. This could be a dangerous thing if didnt explained in a deeper way and this person im talking about just say to people that once save always save nothing else just that . And in my mind it could be dangerous .
So are you saying you were born again , lost your salvation then born a 3rd time? Sounds as if you were backsliding rather
Thanks so much for sharing this!!!!
Awesome points!
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Eternal security of the born again believer is not an "opinion", it's called.... wait for it... The Gospel.
Lordship salvation advocates need to drop their self righteous attitude and believe the Gospel
@Felix Mitchell forgive me but may have come off a little like a smart-ass I did not mean anything personally but Calvinism and Lordship Salvation almost ruined my life... and I'm very passionate about the free Grace position.. I interpret Matthew 7 as speaking to false prophets who are presenting their works to God.. notice none of them said that we believed on you for eternal life they just we're giving there resume of works and it goes on to say that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit Nor
that good tree can produce bad fruit so if to think that the fruits they're referring to are the fruits of the spirit then they wouldn't be wolves in sheep's clothing they would look fine on the outside and it would be teaching sinless perfection.... the fruit is the message they speak if they speak a false message as a prophet ,they are a bad tree .. Joseph Smith Taze Russell...etc Once I understood it as that.. it made it so simple...Much Love ,Andy
@Felix Mitchell John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.... all of the other passages are referring to Eternal Rewards, salvation from temporal judgment, or taking part in the millennial Kingdom,, I don't understand it all but I believe that Jesus Christ paid it all and when I stand before him nothing I will bring only to the cross I will cling
Felix Mitchell I doubt that you’re saved unfortunately. Stop trusting on yourself and trust 100% on Jesus.
*Felix* Is your mom still alive? If not, when she *WAS* living, would it have been possible to get *UNBORN* from her regardless how you may have treated her? Clearly, if a person loves his/her mother as they should, there would be no *DESIRE* to mistreat her, correct? Well Jesus said "Ye must be born again", not again & again & again. In the same way you can't get *UNBORN* from God is the same as to your mother.
The Parable of the Sower strongly implies that it is possible to lose salvation by falling away, as do passages in Hebrews and 2 Peter. That said, it is definitely possible to return to faith and have salvation restored. C.S. Lewis is a prime example of this: he was a believer until his teens, then became an atheist for almost two decades before returning first to theism and ultimately to Christianity. Had Lewis died while he was an atheist (which nearly happened when he fought in World War 1), it's unlikely he would have been saved.
I have a friendly challenge for you if you haven't already read this book it's called Must Faith Endure for Salvation to Be Sure? by Thomas L. Stegall, it's kinda long but it's an enjoyable read or just get an audio book of it, highly recommend to at the least understand the other sides arguments, God bless.
If you can have salvation where Christ knows you and you know Christ, and then you lose that salvation…. How then can Christ Declare to those people “I NEVER Knew You”
His Love can Never Fail, and the Faith he gave us will also never Fail
@@malcolm716 That's not what's happening there at all. You're mistakenly assuming that there is only one kind of lost people when there are actually two kinds. The first, those Christ is declaring that He "never knew" are those who were faking their beliefs the entire time. The second are apostates, who genuinely knew Christ at some point in their lives but chose to turn away from Him and stop believing. The first group is what is represented by the first soil in the Parable of the Sower. The second group is represented by the second and third soils.
God doesn't "gr@pe" people spiritually, either for their entire existence as Calvinists believe or after they believe, as OSAS-ers believe. While He will never end the relationship on His end, He respects the free choice of the sinner to remain in Him and be saved or to abandon Him and be condemned.
@@DamonNomad82
I understand your thoughts on the Two Groups…. One Group never really Believed they faked it, and the other group did have Faith but abandoned it
My Question is referring to the group you claim knew Christ at one point and Christ knew them at one point. If that group at one point had Faith, but abandoned their Faith down the line, how can Christ say to them “I NEVER knew you”?
@@malcolm716 I answered your question in my first reply. Jesus WASN'T saying "I never knew you" to those who once believed and had fallen away. He WAS saying that to those who had never believed in Him to begin with.
There are scriptures that seem to truly and clearly state both positions...after 51 years of considering this issue I can only state that I'm 90% sure salvation can be lost and 10% hopeful that it can't be lost.... everyone it seems would be hopeful that osas is the truth....yet I think not is more likely that salvation can be lost through not ensuring to the end ... Hebrews 12:12-17 is a compelling
I appreciate the non-divisive tone. I commend how Dr. Leighton approaches this topic.
Regarding whether all Scriptures fit into the last two categories (vs. the first), the apostle Paul believed it was quite possible that someone who is truly standing by faith could nevertheless leave the faith and consequently be cut off for leaving the faith (just as someone without faith could later come into faith and be grafted in). One clear example of this is Romans 11:17-24. It helps to read it in context in an older translation that uses thou/thee for singular-you vs. you/ye for plural-you (e.g. ASV or KJV). Elsewhere in the chapter he is talking to his audience in the plural as a group, but here he is choosing to shift to addressing people as individuals who individually stand by faith currently and yet who would be cut off, if an individual does not continue in (or remain upon, epimeno) the faith. He isn't saying their faith is not real or they are not truly grafted in. It is authentic -- provided only that they continue. He also is clearly not saying they will still be saved even if they leave the faith. It is the first circle category in Dr. Leighton's three categories.
That epimeno (meno = abide/stay/remain/continue, epi = upon) term by Paul is related to the meno (abide, stay, remain) term used in John 15:1-10 about those who do or do not remain in the vine of Christ. Same implications. The concern is not over those who never were connected to the vine. They just need to remain there. Nor is this about being saved, though as through fire, even if you don't remain.
You see the same concern in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. He has no fear that they are not truly believers. He has a real fear that the persecution they faced might have caused them to leave the faith. He is clearly not saying they would be saved anyway, and he is not saying their acceptance of the message wasn't real, genuine, authentic. It is only if they left the faith that Paul's missionary work there would have been rendered in vain.
His fear is that they would become as the seed sown in the rocky soil in the parable by Jesus of the four soils. Jesus doesn't assume that real faith always includes perseverance. On the contrary, all three synoptic Gospels indicate their faith was real for a time and it did really grow, but it was temporary. They later fell away. The account in Luke 8 explicitly distinguishes the fourth soil as having endurance or perseverance. The apostle Peter, who heard the teaching of Jesus, writes in 2 Peter 1 about how our faith needs to have other qualities added to it, including adding endurance/perseverance as a distinct quality alongside other distinct qualities that all need to be added to one's faith (eg 1:5-7). Notice that he commands his audience to make every effort to add these qualities to faith. It is the same Greek word for perseverance/endurance as is used in Luke's account of the fourth soil in the parable of the soils. So Jesus and Peter did not suppose that faith and endurance/perseverance are automatically the same thing. Neither did Paul.
Paul's Galatians letter as a whole is another example. Read the whole letter to see his consistent tone. He never suggests that their faith was not authentic, not genuinely of the Spirit, not the kind of real faith through which grace comes. They were running well. They need to stand firm in what they have. At the same time, he gives them no reason to think that if they leave the gospel of salvation by grace through faith and seek circumcision and salvation through works that they will be saved anyway. If the true believers did that, that would sever them from Christ. Christ would then be of no benefit to them. They will have fallen from grace. As with Romans 11 and 1 Thessalonians, notice the choice of his words that indicate the danger of a loss of a former good state (e.g. Gal. 5:1-4). His concern is about the possibility of desertion, of being turncoats (Gal 1:6, "3. passive or (more commonly) middle, to transfer oneself or suffer oneself to be transferred, i. e. to go or pass over ... to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another, Galatians 1:6 (cf. 2 Macc. 7:24; Polybius 5, 111, 8; 26, 2, 6; Diodorus 11, 4; (ὁ μεταθεμενος, turncoat, (Diogenes Laërtius 7, 166 cf. 37; Athen. 7, 281 d.)).
Once a person sees Paul's repeated concern about believers possibly leaving the faith, one finds other examples in more of his letters about how salvation is conditional on remaining in the faith, holding on to the faith, and so on (e.g. 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Col. 1:21-23). He never assumes that starting in a real faith automatically means perseverance. Nor does he assume that falling away indicates that someone's beginning in faith was not genuine. If it were not genuine, then merely holding on to something that was ineffectual would not save. It would be false hope. Even when concerned, Paul urged people to hold on to the faith they already had as a valid means for grace -- provided they were not moved away from it by deception, persecution, or tribulation as some rocky-soil believers would be.
It is because the apostle Paul does not believe that P (as in TULIP) is guaranteed in all who have faith that I knew early on that I could not reconcile Paul with Calvinism. Now, I'm also very appreciative of the work of Dr. Leighton and others to more fully explain how Calvinism (following late-stage Augustine) departs from the earliest three centuries of Christian belief. Thank you very much!
I was reading Hebrews 6: 4-6 and I have to ask; can a nonbeliever partake of the Holy Spirit?
you can not think though, boy
@@allentomas3417 I hope "though" was intended to be "that" or "that thought though", otherwise you are insulting my intelligence.
@@isaiahkerstetter3142 OSAS people are just as obnoxious as Calvinists.
@@gk.4102 That's not been my experience and Mr. Tomas hasn't responded as of yet so his poor grammar and punctuation is still unintelligible.
@@gk.4102 Maybe, but at least they're saved forever.
Leighton, just like you invited Dr Allen, can you now also invite Dr Brown for the sake of fairness and to avoid misrepresentations?
G K. Who is Dr Brown? I don’t know who people are talking about
@@rosstemple7617 Look him up. He's a well known jewish christian scholar. He rejects Calvinism, but he's a personal friend of James White. And on this specific issue, he doesn't believe in OSAS.
I would also suggest Dr. Jordan Cooper, Lutheran scholar. He has two hours worth of podcasts dealing with apostasy and does a great job.
ye can not learn that way, folks, these burps is muck-brained and full of controversy.
History of OSAS beliefs is as follows...
1st/2nd century Gnostics develop a doctrine in which the predetermined "elect" are unconditionally elected to salvation. Gnostics believed that man's salvation is based on knowledge apart from any moral code by which he ascends; therefore under no circumstances can one of the elect be lost. The early church writings are replete with warnings refuting the false doctrines of the Gnostics. Fast forward and it is Augustine the "ex" Manichean who develops what would become the TULIP of Calvinism while writing against the Pelagians (check out Ken Wilson also featured on Soteriology 101). This is where a form of OSAS found its way into the church but was not embraced by the Catholic church. Finally the Reformers brought back Augustinianism in a big way and OSAS was back on the map.
I find it curious that non-Calvinists would be so eager to embrace a doctrine that was built on the denial of freewill. Moreover it ignores Christ's teachings on the matter while adhering to a doctrine that originated with heretics.
@@abideintheWord I love your channel man! I watched your video about this video. Dr. Flowers is such a great man and he destroy so good calvinism, but It is so sad that he accepts the "P".
It is really bothering to see the comment section full with the free-grace dispensationalists. If Flower rebuked OSAS they wouldn't be able to effectively spread their lies, but now they are able to deceive some babe in Christ.
@@dimitartodorov4826 Is there a difference between his Provisionism and Free grace?
I don't understand this argument that once saved always saved means Calvinism or ancient Gnosticism influence regarding predestination and pre-election. I reject the Calvinism/Gnosticism concepts of predestination/pre-election, but I embrace the fact of being born again/saved from death by grace through faith. But, unto good works. Faith saves. But faith saves you unto something. Future good works/growth in right living.
The origin of my belief in once saved always saved is not in some ancient Gnostic invention, but rather directly from the scriptures that predate those beliefs where it says that we are to believe upon the name of the Son of God in order to be saved, and that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. But that we are saved unto good works.
departure from the faith as per1 Peter. In order to do depart from something you had to be a part of it first.
Brother Leighton, thank you for your kind and Christ like approach to this topic.
I have immense respect for both you and Brown, but I find it difficult to to find those who will present the topic with grace.
I personally had an experience that led me to search this subject out, and am compelled to avoid apostasy with every fiber of my being.
30:56 You don't see in Scripture the people who once had a relationship with God that later rejected Him?
(read until the end)
1 Tim 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will Abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
1 Tim 6:20
Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have Departed from the faith.
1 Cor 15:2
Here is a trustworthy saying:
2 By this gospel you are saved, 'If you hold firmly' to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
2 Tim 2:11
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 IF we ENDURE,
we will also reign with him.
IF we DISOWN him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Heb 6:4
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.
2 Peter 2:20
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by 'Knowing' our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Heb 10:28
28 Anyone who 'rejected' the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished 'who has trampled the Son of God underfoot', who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant 'that sanctified them', and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Lovely prooftexting. Now, can you exegete these?
@@sukka4pain I was thinking of saying the same thing brother. When I was first saved back in 1987, I was so proud of myself that I could use a Strongs Concordance and look up Bible verses. I was a king a proof texting and didn't know what in the world I was talking about. Paul tells Timothy to study to show thyself approved unto God a Workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth. It's very obvious that a person can wrongly divide the word of Truth. I'm with the good old Apostle Paul who said, I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I committed unto him against that day. He does the keeping. Praise God. I would also be interested to know what Bible version the proof-texter is using. A lot of peculiar translations compared to the versions of the Bible that I use.
Brother Luke, you forgot...
"Well said. Because of unbelief, they were broken off, and YOU STAND BY FAITH. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. OTHERWISE, you also will be cut off" Rom 11 20-22
To my other two brothers in this thread.....please explain why you think all of these verses are taken out of context and please exegete them properly for us
Oh, let's not forget...
"Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" Gal 5 2-4
Paul was afraid for the Galatians who were reverting to the law. He was afraid that they were "estranged from Christ"...."falling from grace" where "Christ would profit them nothing". Fall from grace = lose your salvation
@@sukka4pain A very simple concept going on here. Either you can, or you can't reject God. I'm not sure if you have eyes.... but Paul he entertains the notion! I've heard all the Calvinist rebuttals for these verses and they typically state these people who reject God, weren't Christian to begin with or they change the word "Faith" to a mere acknowledgment of God. These passages iv'e included are only some of a countless number...
@Soteriology101 The problem is that Jesus considers apostates as believers until that time...
you most likely do not know Jesus and should not speak for Him
typical self righteous humanist fake
lost soul have Lots of aggressive words
No, that's ridiculous. Jesus knows who belong to Him, and He will never let them go. God is Sovereign.
@@robroy4058
God is not a God of determinism
@@FishersofTheRemnant Are you saying He's not sovereign?
James 5:19-20
English Standard Version
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
I want my kids and dad to be saved, and at one point in their lives they did believe, but the world tainted their beliefs and they all walked away. God is full of mercy and grace and I hope and pray daily that they turn back to Him one day.
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted.
Mark 13:22
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Revelation 3:16
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!
@AVB2 Galatians 5:1-6 - The Apostle Paul clearly states that Christ has set us free. He has saved us! And yet he goes on to say to believers that if they follow another gospel (Galatians 1:6-10 cf. II John 1:7-11) they are “cut off from Christ” and “they have fallen from grace.” See Galatians 5:4. You cannot fall from somewhere you have never been! In other words the argument that “Anyone who is lost was never saved in the first place” or “Anyone who is lost was never really a believer” is nonsense. While that may be true of some it is not true of all. Christians can fall from grace! Paul said so. A saved believer can fall from grace. And it is a lying heresy to say that they can’t.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
{Hebrews 10:38}
Are you concurring with losing one's Salvation?
@@Yeshua_Is_King777
Once saved always saved?
Has a person born again lost their freewill? Have they put on incorruption? Have temptations been removed from them?
No!
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: *but* he that *shall endure unto the end* the same shall be saved.”
{Mark 13:13}
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, *in departing* from the living God.
But exhort one another *daily* while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, *if* we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
{Hebrews 3:12-14}
I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: *but let them not turn again to folly*
{Psalm 85:8}
“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he [the unclean spirit] walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house [a man] from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”
{Matthew 12:43-45}
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man *draw back* my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
{Hebrews 10:38}
And he said to them all, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross *daily* and follow me.”
{Luke 9:23}
^
Sanctification.
@@larrybedouin2921 Also just fun fact- your last name references one of the most ancient Arab tribes to date- Bedouin Tribe. If you'd like, you can do research on them and see how they correlate with the Bible (specifically the Old Testament and one of the Kingdoms near - one of the closest ones North of - the Arabian Peninsula ✝️
You are not far from the True Faith, for no one knows for sure whether he is saved or not until the judgment. Because if one fails to persevere until the end (Matt 24:13), he will not be saved. That's why St. Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps, after I have preached to others, I myself should become a reprobate." St. Paul, an Apostle, was concerned about the possibility of losing his salvation, thus proving that 'Once Saved, Always Saved', 'Faith alone", or 'Predestined" is a complete lie from Hell, and that the salvation requires a great efforts on our part to truly live according to Our Lord's Commandments of Love and observing All He commanded as taught by His One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Matt 28:20), so that we may be transformed into the True Image and Likeness of Christ (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18); because, we are judged, not by Faith, but according to our deeds and works (Rev 20:13, 22:12. Matt 25:31-46), as only those who OBSERVE All the teachings and persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) are justified (Rom 2:13).
The Early Church writers did not believe in Once saved always saved:
We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. Barnabas (c. 70-130, E), 1.138. The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. . . . Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. . . . And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that even after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the “many who are called,” but not the “few who are chosen.” Barnabas (c. 70-130, E), 1.139.
Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.522. Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.523. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day. . . . For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.11. There is but one repentance to the servants of God. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.21. If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house will lose all hope of salvation. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.23. Put away doubting from you, and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, “How can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?” Do not reason with yourself in this manner. Instead, with all your heart turn to the Lord, and ask of Him without doubting. For then you will know the multitude of His tender mercies and that He will never leave you, but will fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.26.
No one can snatch you from my Father's hand says nothing about us jumping out of that hand...
No one includes you or me! John 10:27-30 is quite possibly my favorite verse, as it lets me know that now that I belong to Christ, not even I can mess it up. Those who leave the faith never had saving faith, but were false converts.
When you are in his hands you are eternally his.
no one would mean you
CAN THE HOLY SPIRIT SEAL ON THE PERSON HE REDEEMED BE BROKEN? YES OR NO
No! I would say the seal of his blood and the corresponding promise of eternal life is unbreakable over the “whosoever believes" part of that and Jesus will get us across the finish line . It's the "working that out in fear and trembling" and "daily taking up our crosses" part I'm not sure of. The order of our salvation is Spirit, soul and body, just as in the fall in the garden; if you eat of the wrong tree in the midst of the garden ye shall surely die didn't begin with a bodily death, it began with the image of God in man dying in us which corrupted the soul and led to premature death of the body. But Jesus as the second Adam, restored what only he could do (apart from the works of man) and was resurrected and restored the image of God in man, removing the barrier of separation and the Angel who stood between us and the tree of life and sealing us for eternity with the blood over the door post of our hearts. Now we are in that portion which is the salvation of our souls and we all who have believed have the continuing choice to believe and obey all of those "works" created for us to do in Christ Jesus long before amd receive greater and greater rewards and “suffer" loss. I think of 1 cor 3, which is clearly talking about those who have believed and HAVE the security of eternal life but one of those big buts of the bible is there and some who have built with wood hay and stubble, on the right foundation , yet suffer loss with nothing to show for it except with nothing to show for it BUT the blood of Jesus that maybe they believed upon at bible camp some decades ago. So, if our “salvation “ is a daily process what does that look like? How about the wedding supper of the lamb where the angels let a man in presumably because he was sealed by the blood or had his invitation but did not have wedding clothes on? It was the Father who kicked him out, but he also doesn’t refer to him as an enemy but a friend…. A friend who just didn’t have wedding clothes on and couldn’t be at that particular event, nevertheless , he was kicked out to a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. It’s easy to assume that means he was kicked out of heaven but I think he was “saved", but the wedding banquet is for those who were clothed in wedding arraignment which I believe are the righteous acts of the saints of eph 2:10. So there are those who are saved with a confession and those who are SAVED through faith AND obedience. We’re all “IN" but I don’t believe that just because you say a prayer to go to heaven gets you into the wedding feast let alone the bridal chamber as a bride. Some are just friends in the outer court looking in, some ate door keepers , some are attendees with the right clothes, some are in the wedding party and then I think there are the “few" who become the bride of Christ. I mean if someone without the right clothes can’t even get into the wedding how about who is allowed into the most intimate place as His Bride? I hold all of this very loosely and with humility and keep myself open to correction but I believe I can back it all up scriptural but am interested in hearing other views from believers.
One Savior Alone Saves
The only time “faith alone” is said in scripture is to say that faith is dead if it is alone, without works, in the book of James.
Alone is Luther, not Biblical, and if people can’t allow the Bible to teach them and buck up against scripture, it is a fellowship issue to me. The only people asking if they can lose their salvation are people who are withholding something from the Lord, and are trying to find a way to keep on living their old life. If they read the Bible they will know that they will be cast into outer darkness, which is away from the Lord, if they choose not to follow Him. If a person doesn’t want to be in fellowship with God and walking in the light, He gives them what they want.
Recently I asked the question to some people "When someone is saved , what is saved?" The idea was to help realize the transformation they experience as they follow Jesus. Then I asked them the question, "What is not saved?"
You are saved from the wrath of God against sin.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Romans 5:9 NIV
@@elunico13 By question to you is how do you understand God's wrath?
@@caleschnell I try to stick to the scriptures to understand it. How about you my friend?
@@elunico13 Of course. My question to you is how do you understand what Paul states concerning God's wrath in Romans chap. 1?
Reading Scripture is one thing-reasoning out what it says is another.
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The Godly will Be Delivered
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Profane and Blasphemous Seducers
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
KJV
The Lord’s Prayer teaches us that we have a daily battle with the devil and we need to ask God to deliver us from temptations of the devil.
“Lead us not into temptation.” This means, do not allow us to be led into it by him who tempts. For far be the thought that the Lord should seem to tempt us-as if He either were ignorant of the faith of someone, or else were eager to overthrow it. Tertullian (c. 198, W), 3.684.
When we ask that we may not come into temptation, we are reminded of our infirmity and weakness, in that we need to ask this. Otherwise, someone may insolently vaunt himself or proudly and arrogantly assume anything to himself. Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.454.
I think we should avoid sin because it was bad before we were a Christian and it is still bad now . But you cannot change your salvation once your saved .
Yeah, we have a spiritual battle. Of course. That does not mean you can lose your salvation. You can lose rewards, but you are still eternally secure.
@@s.a3099 yes the Scriptures says that if we confess our sins, the Lord will forgive our sins, but if we continue to violate that sin, the Lord will let you go and have you removed from the main branch. There are about 80 passages of Scripture that says that our salvation is conditional and many of them are directives from Christ in the kingdom passages. Matthew 25:30 ESV
[30] And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Jesus gives many of these examples, another central doctrine on salvation and the rapture and second coming a firms the judgement seat of Christ is during the tribulation period and that the Church will purified as to those who are faithful and those who are weeds and tares. Jesus states very clearly here that the weeds and tares are removed first before the rapture of the Church, this passage and many others that the judgement seat of Christ is during the tribulation period. Daniel 7:21-22 ESV
[21] As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.
This passage is mirrored in Revelation Revelation 20:4 ESV
[4] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Take note of when the thrones are set up.
WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST:
We are redeemed (Gal 3:13)
We are new creatures (2Cor 5:17)
We are called to be saints (Rom 1:7)
We are accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6)
We have the forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7)
We are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37)
We are Ambassadors for Christ (2Cor 5:20)
We are justified freely by his grace (Rom 3:24)
We are the temple of the living God (2Cor 6:16)
We have redemption through his blood (Eph 1:7)
We have now received the atonement (Rom 5:11)
We are free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2)
We are sons and heirs of God through Christ (Gal 4:7)
We have been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor 5:18)
We are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (2Cor 3:3)
We are not our own, for we are bought with a price
(1Cor 6:19-20)
We are not far but now made nigh by the blood of Christ
(Eph 2:13)
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)
We can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth us
(Php 4:13)
We are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12)
We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law
(Rom 3:28)
We are justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9)
We are to endure hardness, as a good soldier of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Tim 2:3)
We are to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Eph 3:9)
We are presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his sight (Col 1:22)
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3)
We are justified by his grace, and made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7)
We are to wait for the Lord Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10)
We are confident that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it (Php 1:6)
We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8)
We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us (Gal 2:20)
We are workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim 2:15)
We are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God (1Cor 6:11)
We are looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
We are persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:38-39)
We are justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(Gal 2:16)
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1Cor 15:57)
And Ye Are Complete in Him (Col 2:10)
I believe in Eternal Security but not once saved always saved. Once saved always saved seems to say, I am saved there for I can live anyway I want and sin with reckless abandon. Two different things.
Amen! OSAS is simply antinomianism.
@ Im just a country boy. Whats the definition if antinomianism. If it ends in (ism) Im pretty sure Im not a fan.
Never mind, I got. We said the same thing two different ways.
@@robertfridley280 antinomianism: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation.
Jude soundly refutes this idea in verse 4 of his book: For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
@@robertfridley280 Oops, didn't see your 2nd reply until I responded to the first!
What about king Saul? Filled by the Holy Spirit, became a new person, used by the Holy Spirit, then rejected the LORD and died (1 Chronicles 10:13)? Wouldn’t he be one who was saved yet chose to walk away?
We're all wretched sinners, for if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:19
Turn away from sins and have faith IN JESUS CHRIST TO BE SAVED AND THE LORD WILL CHANGE YOUR HEART TO LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS! AND BELIEVE JESUS DIED AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD TO SAVE YOU!
So we suppose to listen to a pastor who is telling me that if I commit suicide I will go to heaven? Please.
The belief that committing suicide means you go to hell is a man-made Doctrine it is not biblical
I’m not sure I follow. You’re soteriology sounds more like the Freewill Baptist. They believe that you can forfeit your salvation. But if that’s the case then show me one verse where we can leave our salvation and God kills the spirit he both raised and sealed unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit would have to unseal us and break God’s promise. We’re saved because of God’s promises, not our works or experiences. If we genuinely believe and receive Christ and are born again, then the Christian can leave yet still be redeemed in his/her apostasy because God promised that the moment one receives Christ that he would make their dead spirit alive, then gives them the Holy Spirit as a dowry that guarantees marriage. And it’s not dependent upon what we might do later on.
You also misinterpreted Matt. 7. The reason why he doesn’t know them is because they never entered through the narrow gate.
25:05 For anyone in an abusive relationship, please do NOT stay in it to prove that your love is a real (agape) love. Protect yourself first, then sort it out.
All those years banging on the door of predestination, and you cleared it up in 3 minutes thanks
How do we lose the eternal LIFE that God gives us when we ARE saved?
It's ALL about HIM --- NOT us.
It's HIS salvation that HE gives as a gift
I cannot walk away from HIS work that HE says it's FINISHED. Thank you Jesus
That sounds nice. Not true though. If it were why would everyone not subscribe. Read hebrews 6. Hebrews 9 and 10. 1 john 5. Etc. Bible clearly does not teach this comforting but false teaching.
@@ddff5242 the reason no one "subscribes" is because the Bible clearly says THAT NONE seek after God. HE MUST choose some to be SAVED because none will come and we cannot come. John 6 clearly says THAT. JUST accept God's decree that we ARE ONLY evil continually. He loves sinners and He ONLY SAVES sinners. People do NOT like the ways of God because it's "unfair". God WILL DO everything to HIS GLORY alone. If we choose to reply against HIM ---- that's PURE rebellion
Try again and actually make coherent sense.
@@ddff5242 the Bible says THAT Paul's gospel given to him by Jesus himself ---- is incoherent to the lost.
I pray you will find peace in Paul's gospel --- The FINISHED work Jesus accomplished for salvation
@Over-for-now that's right. I'm incapable of understanding because I'm not apart of the special selected ones. Got it. Have fun in the cultish echo chamber you live in.
Honest question: If we have free will before we are saved, do we lose free will after we are saved?
Answer: what about your will is free? Maybe you're confusing having the FREEDOM to choose, with having FREEWILL. Only The Almighty God has FREEWILL and since the Satan rebelled he has A WILL (not free but still) and humans are FREELY choosing to obey one or the other. Them "doing their own will" is actually fulfilling the will of Satan. That's the whole point. No FREEWILL!
@@tiwanstrong1413 ok, so do we loose free choice after we are saved?
@@ess2000 no, we always have free choice. Calvinism is unbiblical.
We can lose our salvation, we can fall from the faith. I like Dr. Flowers so much but he just agreed with the P from the TULIP. The TULI are obviously wrong, that means that the P cannot stand either.
Yes, because you were Born into Christ. Can you be not born of your mother again?
The parable of the Sower and the seeds (Matt 13: 1-23) clearly shows the Word can be heard and accepted, with joy even, (is this not "saved?") and yet the hearer can "fall away" ....it seems that this parable clearly teaches that one can fall away after hearing and accepting the Word with joy and yet be lost or unfruitful ...remember according to Matt 7:19 that unfruitful branches are tossed into the flames?
To believe in eternal salvation is akin to believing in the Calvinist position that God saves you against your will (irresistible grace) ..it infers that because a person is now "saved" their free-will shall no longer have anything to do with their salvation.. this is to say God will "save" you regardless of your beliefs, life-style and outright rejection of Jesus ...to assert it is my free-will that is engaged when accepting salvation and then to deny my free-will in rejecting salvation afterwards is contradictory .....
Mathew 24:10 states that "..many will fall away.." and follow false teachers and prophets......but ask yourself---fall away from what? ...
They believed the truth and had faith. Here is the measure I used for them but I measured by His will in John 6.
And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.-John 12:23-24
The measure you use is measured unto you so there it is. They were pruned and the fruit remains. Unfruitful is not fruitless.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.-Mathew 7:21
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.-John 6:35-40
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.-John 20:29
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.-John 3:16
If we believe in free will (which I do) we do not surrender our will after salvation. If we choose to walk away, I believe we can, just as I believe in our free will to accept Jesus’ free gift of salvation. I am not dogmatic about this, believe eternal security could possibly be true. But for me there are enough Scriptures to make me still hold to the position you can walk away.
Though I disagree with OSAS, I still love Leighton. ☺
You disagree with the Lord Jesus Himself. It is the ONLY gospel. Anything you add to this gospel is false and accursed.
@@look2christ777 OSAS isn't biblical. One can both freely choose Christ and also freely reject Him afterwards. Scripture warns believers to not do so.
Felix Mitchell god never says he will blot names out
That’s not a biblically true statement
Felix Mitchell - Salvation has ALWAYS been a FREE GIFT. Abraham and David were saved because they believed, not because of their works under the law. Scripture is very clear on this.
Romans 4:3-8
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
@@johngodsey5327 God is not an "Indian Giver". A believer receives "everlasting" @ their conversion. The "everlasting" is the *SAME* word used to describe the "everlasting" fires of hell. So if a person can s/how, in s/way lose his "everlasting" life, that would mean that a person has a chance to get out of hell somehow, at some time & in some way. Ye must be born *AGAIN* , singular...not again & again should you transgress to what...just how many sins, what type of sin, etc is it that s/body can even commit for God to use his eraser and erase the name from the Lamb's Book of Life? Is it a mere choice to say they no longer believe? *SMH*
I think that, just NT Wright points out, in second temple Judaism justification has a present and a future dimension, so I don’t think you can say that it is only forensic. There is a covenantal and escathological aspect to it.
So, I’ll question the validity of the assertion from the perspective of modern scholarship.
But also please bear in mind that this idea is nowhere to be found in the early Fathers. So, if you claim that Augustine went against the consensus of the early Fathers regarding predestination you need to be consistent intellectually and reject forensic justification on the same grounds.
Below some excerpts from Aleister McGrath, which knows probably better than anyone else the history of the doctrine of justification.
“The essential distinguishing feature of the reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between justification and regeneration...the essential point is that a notional distinction is made where none had been acknowledged before in the history of Christian doctrine. A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed, or even been contemplated, before. The reformation understanding of the nature of justification -as opposed to its mode- must be regarded as a genuine theological novum”
psalms 89
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; note
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. note note
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. note
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Love what you said, its not "Once saved always saved," but rather "If saved always saved." Your analogy about the flat earth was great. Regarding Hebrews 6, Dr. Tony Evans explained it best for me. It's clear they are true Christians and it is clear they fell away from something. Note it never says salvation. What did they fall away from? It says enlightenment, heavenly gift, partaking in the Holy Spirit, the good word of God, and the power of the world to come. In other words in their backslid state they can't enjoy all the benefits of being a child of God. Their fellowship cannot be renewed as long as they are crucifying Christ afresh. In other words acting like Peter before the rooster crowed. It doesn't say they can't latter get alone with God and weep bitterly and repent and renew their fellowship. The passage goes on to describe their state like a farmer's field grown over with thorns. A field in such a state would have to be burned off to clear all the thorns so he could once again grow good crops. It has nothing to do with God casting them into hell, but rather using fiery trials to bring them back to a place of bearing fruit. I've personally experienced this in my life.
… can’t enjoy all the benefits of being a child of God? How many types of children of God are there? At least 2 from what you are saying: 1 with benefits and 2 without benefits. Any Scripture for that?
What would you make of Hebrews 5:9 then?
If saved always saved? That's a word game. It's means the same thing as once saved always saved. They are saying the same thing. It's just worded different. Just like Leighton is wording it different. The only difference worded different. The analogy regarding flat earth. Is a false analogy based out of ignorance on what most Christian flat earthers believe. They do not believe the earth is a floating disk with edges one can fall off of. They believe the earth has pillars along with the sky and that the sky is a solid dome. The Sky is fastened at the edges . The edges cannot be fallen off of according to most Christian geocentrist. so there are no edges that one falls off. This notion that geocentric Christians believe in a disk that floats with edges one can fall off of. Is misinformation Leighton has not taken the time to research what Christians geocentrist believe. He he had he would not make this statement. Now someone can reply using a statement like. Flat earth is not biblical. Ok you can say this but that's not the point. The point is flat earth ledge thing is misrepresented. Leighton is still reaffirming once saved. Using words like genuinely saved. Is the same thing Calvin's say. This is using word games. If you cannot out sin God's grace. Then the verses about apostasy would not be sever and damage. Loose leave same thing. Calvinist are not saying a person can loose there salvation like loosing keys. He is taking there wording out of context. I also get the inconsistencies from calvinistic worldview but to put if off that Calvinist are saying lose in the context like keys thats dishonest. The inconsistencies of calvinistic logic is erelavent to the point of what calvinist mean by loosing there salvation. Them saying a person lost there salvation is in the context of they chose willingly to leave. This is not relevant to there inconsistency.
@@patcode8261 So, we have "Christian flat earthers" today who believe we live under a sky dome? Like a much bigger version of what Jim Carrey's movie character experienced?
@@chaddonal4331 because that is the truth and its simple to prove and its even easier to prove the globe earth is all a lie.
@@patcode8261 these guys like leighton don't want to know the real truth of the earth and God's creation. he may have been able to swallow his pride and admit he was wrong when he believed the calvinist nonsense but it's going to take some really big dose of ego deflation for him to admit the earth is flat.
The danger with term 'OSAS' is that it can lead people to believe they can behave in any way they choose, walking in wilfull sin, and still be saved. This is neither logical nor coherent given the character of God and the instructions for us to lead a Godly life in Christ. I agree that we can sin (backslide)and repent (if it's true repentance, which is more than just feeling sorry, and is rather to turn around and walk in the opposite direction) and be forgiven (Peter), but to sin wilfully and uncaringly is different. It mocks God and spits on what Jesus did for our salvation.
If we are saved no matter what we do, we can rape, murder, molest, torture and just because we once believed, we're okay, only these fruits will be burned, well be okay and rewarded with an eternity of bliss... WOW! This is worse than determinism! And a terrible message to atheists.
God gave us scripture so we would know what kind of life we should live. We all need the Holy Spirit to enable us to live it and even then we will all rebel at times to this guidance. But if we do not care, if we do not surrender to this, do not repent, we cannot be saved.
I have know church going people who live sinful lives saying it doesn't matter, because they are saved. So dangerous.
We cannot have Jesus as Saviour, if we do not also have him as Lord.
Dr Flowers, love your channel and watch a ton of your content and appreciate all you’re doing to fight the false doctrine of Calvinism. Question for you, are you defining a concept of “being saved” is equal to sanctification?
Not "If saved, eternally saved"
Eternity includes eternal past. Use "everlasting" only, except for God.
When GOD chose King Saul did he remained Saved ? When Jesus chose Judas as a Christian, did he remained Saved ?
@@josephessilfie7777 where does the Bible claim the soteriological state of those two? Do not conflate every choice God makes as one "unto salvation."
@@jdjohnson2131
Please read 1st. Corinthians 3:16 and 17. This show us that there's no One Saved always Saved.
Let God be the Judge amen
He already is/was/AM
As always, so full of grace and love. Thank you brother Leighton.
Christians can lose their Salvation. Once saved always saved refuted.
Mark 13:22
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Revelation 3:16
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The scriptures are pretty clear on this subject. The scriptures teach that Christians have the assurance of salvation, you cannot accidentally burp out your salvation, God will discipline his children sometimes with severe consequences to get them back on track, but we don't lose our free will after being saved and God will never force people onto himself or into heaven.
Note: speaking to Christians: James 1:15 ESV: "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." This truth doesn't disappear when you become truly saved.
Also speaking to Christians: 1 Tim 4:1 ESV: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"
Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking to Christians and the author spoke in a manner that there would be no confusion and yet here we are.
This is not a dividing matter and I like how you articulate the problems of calvinistic doctrine.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome If what you mean by "dividing matter" is not submitting to the leadership that teaches this, then I would agree with you and it has been my experience that these leaders also normally teach other false doctrines.
The problem with viewing warning passages in Hebrews as only referring to chastisement or loss of rewards is that one must believe that it isn't necessary to continue believing in Christ as a savior. If a person chooses to completely reject Jesus, why would God allow them into Heaven?
All relationships in life must consist of both parties committed to one another. If someone no longer loves God, no longer trusts Him, no longer wants to be with Him, then why would He force them to stay? That would be an illogical, unproductive, and pointless relationship where neither party benefits.
Well said. Calvinists don't believe in free will before and after salvation. So called "free gracers" believe in free will before salvation but you lose free will after salvation. What I sometimes tell people is that you can't accidentally drop your salvation and God will discipline his children even with great consequences to get them back on track - but God will never force anyone onto himself. There are lots of verses; warnings to Christians which associate salvation with continuing in the faith, not getting cut off, persisting, forgiving others, enduring, etc.
Though I believe in OSAS I still love your teachings. We have been adopted into his family. I don’t like using marriage because divorce isn’t sinful in certain events. But adoption is something you can’t separate from you. If he is our Father, what Father will abandon his child? Our Father who is in heaven... and the prodigal son parable as well. When he talks about us he talks about us as his children. Also the verse where it says that no one can snatch us away from his love not any kind of power. We aren’t powerful enough to separate us from him.
The adoption has not been finalized yet and will not be until we receive glorified bodies:
23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?
(Romans 8:23-24)
God does not abandon His children but sometimes His children abandon Him and the only way he has provided to save us:
1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will ABANDON THE FAITH to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
(1 Timothy 4:1)
@@JimiSurvivor You can’t lose what you never had to begin with. If you were never truly saved to begin with, then there’s nothing there to worry about losing because you aren’t saved. You also can’t lose something you don’t leave. As long as you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved, & you are eternally secure. I’m this way, believers’ salvation is eternally secure.
@@RUT812
a. "You can’t lose what you never had to begin with"
I agree. Unbelievers, cannot lose a salvation they never possessed. This does not prove believers cannot depart from their faith. Paul warned:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will DEPART from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
(1 Timothy 4:1)
DEPART is the translation of the Greek word aphistemi. Other translations include: "fall away" or "abandon" Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines this word as:
"to desert, withdraw from...to fall away, BECOME FAITHLESS.
This suggests a transition from one state (believing) to the opposite state (not believing). The people Paul was describing had faith but subsequently abandoned or departed from it. There is no room in the verse to insert that they NEVER believed. That is pure eisegesis.
.................................................
b. "If you were never truly saved to begin with, then there’s nothing there to worry about losing because you aren’t saved."
I would say there is a great deal for anyone who is not saved to "worry about"
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
.................................................
c. "You also can’t lose something you don’t leave."
Yes and if Christians DO NOT LEAVE Christ they will not lose anything else either
.................................................
d. "As long as you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved, & you are eternally secure."
As long as you CONTINUE TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus you are saved and secure. Some believers will not fulfill that condition. This is the focus of most of the warnings given in the NT:
21 Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence -
(Colossians 1:21-22)
This scripture shows the final end God has prepared for us. However reaching this end has conditions attached to it:
23 IF indeed you CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved NOT MOVED from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature
(Colossians 1:23)
We will only realize our eternal inheritance, IF we CONTINUE in TO BELIEVE and do not allow ourselves to be moved away into a lifestyle of disobedience or into false teaching that contradicts the gospel of the Lord Jesus.
@@JimiSurvivor not that I'm disagreeing with you, and no I'm not a Calvinist (that's such a scary horrid teaching), more on a regular christian that does not claim to denominations, , but then my rhetorical question to you is then even though there are people misled by false teaching but still have faith in Jesus, and even though doubt races in my mind about my salvation at times, along with many others, because of the difficulties life brings or even working out salvation, but still have faith, that still counts ofcourse, right? Because there are days when we fall short and that is an active moment when we sin, mess up, get tired, cannot keep a performance base, and have a bad day with bad news and really difficult scenarios, where we feel so exhausted we fass short even by crying and wanting to give up, But our faith, meaning belief, though small as an mustard, meaning we still have our faith in God, even if it feels like life is falling apart, THAT is STILL an example of faith, which still clearly shows that person is saved given their faith, right? And if someone went bitter but turned back to the Lord, with a heart of Goldy sorrow, we still cannot tell them they "lost the gift" even through those moments right? because here's the thing, we live in a broken world and we do have the choices to have faith or not. But you got to take into account that It's not by our own works, but by faith which we all agree on, which then God's grace becomes more abound. So yes truly things do matter. I'm NOT for a denomination, I'm just a follower of Christ, but that being said, we also cannot conclude that x+y=z for sure. I got away from bad teaching and still have to look out for it, but in that current time you wouldn't be able to concluded that I'd be in hell or am going to hell because at that time, which was then current, now past was a solid conclusion of me not being saved, even when I was in error of defending error, which FF to now I am not at all supporting or endorsing the intentions or errors of flase teaching, but reading the Gospel for myself. And I know you're not literally concluding X+Y=Z to the extent of basing works out to be an "%80 accurate of the time" conclusion of determining someone's salvation. I only say these things because I can relate to some of these examples in some degree, and I'm no means perfect and I fall short and sometimes get so overwhelmed by how much fighting the church does sometimes we can bare it. There's times I fell short MANY times, and thought "well, I failed this time for sure and I've failed being faithful in this moment so clearly I'm in danger of losing salvation". YET I'm still here by God's grace. and To an extend this can add to your point, but to add to it is the fact of NOT limiting what GRACE uniquely looks like in everyone's life. Can't box God up. Even people in the BATTLE of addiction. They hurt but who says they didn't believe or they don't? Because they struggle, which can easily imply that ups AND downs will exist and can exist most of their life. NO ONE can live a sinless life. So, to conclude, I think that OSAS can present issues regarding the hypotheticals which are usually anticipated as an argue against it. Idk all the answers. I'm more so" If you confess with your mouth and heart and genuinely (honestly) believe, you will be saved". The moment you do seals you in Heaven. Relationship is important. But I also think that what we need to do is help and address doubt of salvation, and NOT preach a work based faith by mistake, because it doesn't matter what part of the spectrum you're on, I feel that The full coherency of the Bible teaches that we are all fallen, through Jesus we are redeemed, yes Jesus even says to remain in Him, but I think the problem we face is that we forget how SIMPLE remaining in Him can be, and how our fruits are a result of our salvation, but not a direct determination by "amount or type of fruits" that could come up with a determined that we "maintain" salvation by works rather than believing the finished work was enough. Christ's faithfulness, or in other words,finished work on the cross. again my fellow brother, not disagreeing with you that we take faith actively seriously, but at the same time cannot support and will not support anything that can imply works based salvation since it can fall ultimately lead to doubt in Jesus work on the cross.
@@RandyEscalanteGarcia
a. "...even though there are people misled by false teaching but STILL HAVE FAITH in Jesus, and even though DOUBT races in my mind about my salvation at times, along with many others, because of the difficulties life brings or even working out salvation, but still have faith, that still counts of course, right?"
Our faith vacillates because we are temporal and do not yet see God directly. I myself have gone through dark times where my faith was almost completely extinguished. However, merely having doubt alone is not equivalent to completely ABANDONING of the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). It is possible to believe and doubt at the same time (e.g., Mark 9:24)
b. The dichotomy between FAITH vs WORKS comes from the Reformers misunderstanding of Paul. When the Apostle opposed WORKS he did not mean any action whatsoever but meritorious good deeds of the LAW. No amount of that class of actions saves us. He did not mean that no action at all is required for salvation. We are commanded to REPENT and BELIEVE. These are actions but not ones we choose apart from the influence of the Spirit. However, we are capable of resisting, refusing, and quenching the Spirit. Besides that Paul always CONTRASTED repentance and faith with meritorious works. Personally I never imagined that something good I did would grant me forgiveness nor establish me in right standing with God.
c. The idea of "maintaining" salvation strikes me as a peculiar notion. What the scripture tells us to do is keep believing THE GOSPEL. If we continue doing that then we will continue to abide in the Father and Son. This process of continuing in Him IS the definition of eternal life:
24 As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning [the gospel] remain in you. IF it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.…(1 John 2:24-25)
Continuing in Him would be impossible without the indwelling Holy Spirit who assists us by giving us the power to live.
d. God will give us grace and help in times of need. Nevertheless the Bible says WE must continue in the faith all the way to the throne room
22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence - 23 if indeed you CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, NOT MOVED from the HOPE OF THE GOSPEL you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.…
(Colossians 1:21-22)
If we are MOVED AWAY from our hope we will never complete our journey,
e. Believing is not a meritorious good work of the Law. Neither does it mean to hold to a doctrinal opinion. Rather it means to trust in, have confidence in, rely on and depend upon Him.
Hebrews 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith comes across to the natural man as a perilous risk:
23 Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.…
(Luke 9:21-24)
The problem I have with the “once saved, now lost “ is found in John 10:28 where Jesus said NO MAN can snatch anyone from His hand… that ‘no man’ includes the self… if I were to walk away, denying the faith,
I John 2:19 would describe me… I never was…
Jesus is saying in John 10:28 if you remain in Jesus, in His path, in His fold, He won't leave you. It does not mean you do not have free will to walk away. In Matthew it mentions sheeps are able to get lost and there is no guarantee Jesus may find them.
WRONG. I HAVE HEARD THIS FOR 30 YEARS. IS THAT ALL YOU HAVE?
@@nicolep7241 are you referring to OSAS or Once Saved now Lost?
But then the circular argument with OSAS folks begins.... Because then they will say that one who walks away was never REALLY saved to begin with....
Okay. They are impossible to have any kind of discussion with.... Generally.
@@joeydaniel3053 “But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
1 Corinthians 11:32
“who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Corinthians 1:8
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”
1 John 5:4
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
1 John 5:18
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
“being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
Philippians 1:6
“so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”
1 Corinthians 1:7-9
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
1 John 2:4
Someone who has been truly born again will not depart from the faith.. some will depart from the faith of being religious and fulfilling religious duties who is not regenerate. But as I’ve shared, He that has been born of God (born again) overcomes the world… and people that say “I know him” and don’t make a practice of keeping is commandments are liars.
“And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
Ezekiel 36:27
“and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”
Jeremiah 32:40
God uses his Word to put fear in the hearts of those that are born again.. and will cause them by His Spirit to remain in him.
Love Dr. Flowers and his ministry!
Here I think he misses the mark. Romans 11 makes it clear that one can be cutoff due to unbelief and grafted in AGAIN if they repent and believe.
Notice, they are grafted BACK INTO the very root they were cutoff from. This means if they weren't saved before, they aren't saved now because they are simply back where they started. If they ARE now saved, then they were saved BEFORE because again, they are back where they started.
If by faith they were/are/will be saved, then by turning away from that faith, they forfeit their salvation.
Much love, Leighton! May God continue to bless all you do for the Kingdom!
Yes however that doesn’t mean “losing salvation” but is a matter of “favor”. You can be cut off (out of favor) but not in danger of hell. In the same sense, you can be grafted back in (back in favor) with God but it has nothing to do with salvation.
Because works can not depend on that.
Sage of Synergism the prodigal son is a picture of a kingdom relationship , not necessarily salvation.
If you read it , you will notice there is an established relationship. But with the lost, they have no relationship with God prior to salvation.
So it Is a picture of repentance and coming back into favor, but the father never stopped being the prodigals father.
@Sage of Synergism "Dead" and "alive" is indicative of the two natures a born again believer has. Those who walk according to the flesh are considered "dead" in the sense of having already been "crucified with Christ". By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Jesus saves your soul, not your flesh. Those who walk according to the Spirit shall reap life eternal which is to say a born again believer has access to what Christ already secured for them eternally in this life. God bless!! :)
Eric Rogers
I'd like to show you where you missed the mark :)
Romans 11 is speaking about God's elect nation Israel who were IN the vine because God chose them to be in the vine first.
They were cut off because they didn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
They REJECTED Jesus, therefore they NEVER believed.
They turned away from God by turning their backs on their Messiah.
They forfeited their salvation by rejecting Jesus.
The warning is to the nations as a whole not to follow Israel's example of unbelief and to not boast against Israel because they can be grafted back in even though they have been cut off if they humble themselves and believe the record that the Father gave of his Son.
It's good news because we BELONG to Jesus and thank God HE keeps us because God knows we would "lose" our salvation as many times as we lose our keys! ;)
That (grafted verses) is about Israel, the Holy Nation, chosen to serve. Salvation verses are found in the gospel of John, a person is born again by receiving seed (the word, the gospel) and Jesus says they will never perish.
“The seeds on the rocky soil represent those who hear the message and receive it with joy. But since they don’t have deep roots, they believe for a while, then they fall away when they face temptation.” ~ Luke 8:13, NLT
If they believe for a while or for a season, how would we know except by their fruits? Apostates cannot be unbelievers.
Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (NASB), “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.”
Falling away from the faith or departing from the faith cannot be anything else but faith in Christ. I cannot depart from faith in Christ if I was never in it.
What we have done with salvation is that we have, in my opinion, merged being saved with inheriting the Kingdom. Being saved (justification) is God forgiving your sins and placing you in a new path that you must walk (sanctification) in obedience to get to the inheritance of the Kingdom (glorification or the resurrection of our bodies).
We have isolated Philippians 1:6 to read that God, no matter what and against my will, will finish what He started in me but Paul reveals his confidence in his conclusion that God will finish what He started based on verse 5.
Philippians 1:4-6 (NLT) reads, “Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy, for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.”
Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV), “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time, their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”
Notice that Peter says that the Lord bought them which is the same figure of speech Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 1 Corinthians 7:23. Can we truly say that these false prophets were never justified?
PS. If you disagree with me, please be kind; insulting others who disagree with you is unchristian.
I appreciate greatly that Dr. Leighton Flowers stated that he could be wrong; that’s humility.
Thanks Leighton such a simple articulation of what we believe and how it doesn’t mean we have to be Calvinistic