I'm here seven years later. Watched as a protestant concerned about my soul and I'm back to comment as a Catholic who is grateful for the continual renewing love and grace of God!
Now I know why James White made a 59 minute "post-debate" video to teach his viewers about "Accurately evaluating debates". Great debate Trent Horn! That was for the greater glory of God!
it was not a debate both he(James White) and Yasir Qadhi said it was not a debate, but a dialogue. Did you listen to both of their intros on both nights of their talks in the church and mosque?
Anyone who is Catholic how are you do blind? How can you be a part of such as The papacy and the Vatican?! Open your eyes seriously investigate. Why does the Vatican display a big Egyptian obelisk? Like Washington DC and The inner city of London. Read your Bible…wake up.
@@jimijames7703 "Read your Bible…wake up." Open your bible to the table of contents. What authority do you defer to, to have decided that your New Testament contains 27 writings, no more, no less, out of 300+ early Christian writings? Read your bible! Do you have a book, chapter and verse that lists these books??
I dislike Trent for this debate wgen i was a protestant. By the grace of God, Trent and many other Catholic apologists helped guide me towards the true church that Jesus Christ set up on earth.
valiant crusader Are you perfect? No. You are being a hypocrite by saying that. You don’t try to convert someone by telling them they’re wrong, you find something in common. Right now whatever religion you’re in I don’t want to be in because that must mean there are people like you. I said this before, and I’ll say it again. Stop it when you aren’t perfect
@valiant crusader First of all, you're acting like an immature 8 year old. God doesn't "choose" anyone. God made ALL OF US. He loves EVERYONE. Do you sin or are you perfect? You have NO RIGHT to say those things about me. You don't know who I am, and you don't know my sins. Don't call me sinful when you yourself is sinning in your comments. Example: Me telling someone to be quiet when I'm being loud... It doesn't make sense, right? Once again, you are being a HYPOCRITE! Please stop calling your brothers and sisters sinful when you have your own soul to worry about. Being mean to people isn't going to make them say, "Wow, I think "valiant crusader" is a really great guy, I think I'm going to join his religion!" NO! They AREN'T going to say that. YOU are being RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL to others. Please stop, you are not perfect. No one is perfect except for God. I don't want to be mean, but you are being horrible to people!!!!!!!!
valiant crusader Oh and also, you didn’t say which book you got this from, so I can’t look into it. Plus stop saying I’m a sinner, because you are too.
@@lionofthecherubim4486might want to do some reading on this. Your information is wrong. Of course Biblical scholars recognize the canon was ratified (for lack of a better word) by the followers of Christ prior to any council. If it were not so then there was a 1500 year period without canonized scripture. Biblical references to other writings is one way the writers and apostles confirmed the canon. OT canon was determined by the prophets themselves such as Moses who put the law as scripture next to the ark of the covenant. Catholic church was a dollar short and a day late on this.
@@ministryoftruth1451 The Canon was first ratified by a council called by Pope St. Damasus I in 382. The first ecumenical council to deal with Scripture was indeed Trent, but various local councils had already been ratifying 73 books for over a thousand years beforehand. Further, I find the accusation that Catholics "cherry-pick" verses telling. Protestants run through their handful of classic "prooftexts" against the Catholic Church, but as soon as the Catholics quote a verse that flatly refutes the Protestant view, it automatically becomes "cherry-picking," without any actual demonstration of that cherry-picking. Please, go ahead. Where is the "cherry-picking"?
Brett RCG have a relook at the rebuttals on the hermeneutics esp the descriptive vis a vis prescriptive aspects of exegesis to be consistent. Mr. Horn does not have this understanding. I would recommend D.A. Carson’s “Exegetical Fallacies” for your reading before you decide who made a biblically informed presentation.
@@Tanjaicholan But, why are we having to construct this method of reading the Bible....? That's going through hoops and doing cartwheels to understand the common sense of the Bible (with the exception of Paul's Epistles, apparently lol).
@@Tanjaicholan The Protestant Reformers are "ministers of righteousness," for they made themselves apostles who divided Christ's Body over the doctrine of righteousness, of justification, claiming to have the light, when in fact they do not. There is no greater evil than to tell people it is not necessary to obey God, take them away from the saving grace of God's Sacraments, then tell them that they are saved. In fact, these "ministers of righteousness" *told everyone they could be their own apostle, interpreting Scripture for themselves* with no regard for the teachings the Church has held since the beginning... It is one thing to read the Scriptures for ourselves. It is another thing to go running around, devising our own "truths" of doctrine from Scripture.
I left the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I then went to aBaptist church. A new “reformed” preacher came in and invited James White to speak on “The Dangers of Catholicism.” Look it up, it’s on RUclips. His conference made me go back Catholic lol! Something didn’t sit right with me. His claims about the Catholic Church did not make any sense. This led me to many weeks researching the Catholic Church. I am so happy God led me back home! Thank you Trent for your videos, they played a big part in my family going back to the church.
Guys stop following denominations. Religion says do, God says come. Why do you think their is so much division? It’s not about what you do, who you follow, how you do it and why. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. It doesn’t matter if you are a catholic or a baptist or so forth. If God is not the final authority in your life and you do not put Gods word over every decision or circumstance and you do not believe that Jesus is God, died and rose again, there is no salvation for any of us. Not all Catholics believe the same things just as not all baptist agree and believe the same things. Don’t stick with a church or denomination, stick with THE CHURCH. The big C, the big B believers. Jesus didn’t preach Catholicism or methodology or Mormonism. He came and demonstrated his love and taught us the truth and then proved it to us. The Bible is written by witnesses. You don’t stand with anyone and you don’t stand apart. We stand together regardless. The Bible tells us all we need to know, it’s the only starting point we have. That’s like saying I’m a catholic so I’m going to heaven because we have it right and so on and so forth. You being a catholic doesn’t save you, Jesus dying and your repentance and belief is what saved you. Guys don’t feel like you have to pick sides because we can do this all day. Just follow Jesus and his truth and you will be ok. It’s not about you or me, there is only one hero of the story and it’s Jesus. Your job, my job, our job, is to tell other the good news, the gospel. Not to tell them which denomination to join because Jesus didn’t point to one and he didn’t create it. He said deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. That’s what a Christian is, a follower of Christ. You are not a catholic or a baptist or whatever, that’s not your identity, your identity is in Christ and with Christ. You are not a white Christian or a black Christian. You are not a male Christian or a female Christian. You are not a wealthy Christian or a poor Christian. You are not a catholic Christian or a baptist Christian. You are a Christian because you follow Christ not because you follow religion. Why do you think there is division? Well this denomination says this and they say this and I believe this. What does the Bible say? We are a body guys of one bigger purpose. You are just a part of one big body as am I. I need a foot, an arm, someone else is the hands another is the eyes. We all have a part to play and regardless where to stand, God will accomplish his will with or without you and regardless of your denomination. If you are wrong, you can still be saved. If you are right, you can still be saved. We all need forgiveness, we all need his saving grace. Come together and build his kingdom, stop trying to build your own. We need to bring others together and it’s ok to have differences, just don’t deny the power of God and who he is. There is only one Christ and we are all trying to point to him. Do what Gods word says and you know you are doing what’s right. I was saved before I found a church. I found God without a church because he came to me as I read his word. It don’t take a specific view, I just chose to believe and I surrendered to him, I was ready and I knew I needed forgiveness for what I have done and he came to me. Put your faith in God, not in man or yourselves. We follow Jesus and his teachings, not religion because religion says different things. It’s not about what you do because works and opinions don’t save you, faith alone does because Jesus paid our debt. That’s ok to have your views, but don’t teach others your views teach them Gods word because we all have an opinion, God states facts. Let’s come together and focus on what we can agree on and settle on our differences and look out for one another. Get back to me and let me know what you think, thank you very much for your time
@@jlouis4407 I got you and I should have been more clear on that. The point I was trying to make is that it’s not so much as finding a group to stand with as much as it is knowing the truth. I listen to James white and some other guys and it was my first time listening to Trent Horn and I think he did have a much better explanation. But just because we share the same views doesn’t mean I have to be a catholic. Maybe James white was the wrong guy to represent the other side for this debate. You don’t have to be something or stand in a certain area because of similar beliefs. As I stated we have the same views but maybe our beliefs differ in areas. I don’t want someone to think they have to pick a side to believe a certain way. I’m with Horn and I think James agrees to a degree but that doesn’t make me a catholic nor does it mean I share a catholic view, I just agree in this area. I’m not saying denominations are not important but really they aren’t. It gives a title and that title is known for overall beliefs, I don’t think it clearly defines me or others. I’ve been asked if I was a lot of things and I just said I believe the Bible for what it says, it didn’t take a label nor did I feel the need to add one. You can be something or believe something without a label or even knowing what it would be called. It’s not important to define ourselves by our denomination but by who we are In Christ if any of this makes any sense. I saw where they felt the need to jump back and forth and it seems important to say someone has it wrong or maybe not completely put together and to say that a representative gave a better explanation so you are now this or this isn’t accurate, it doesn’t make sense. What if Horn debated someone else and that person didn’t agree, would they change denominations again? If hitler was to preach the gospel I would say yes I agree but I wouldn’t say I’m a nazi now. If he said we need to kill the Jews and do this and that, I would say we agree in the one particular area about God but I’m not killing anyone because I disagree with your belief here. I don’t have to become a nazi because we have a similar belief because I might not agree in all areas. Horn could be right in this one area and later he believes some similar beliefs of Mormonism or something. If I have all these mixed beliefs what am I then? I don’t want people to think they have to stand in a certain group to believe something, sometimes we can just say I believe that and some other things because the Bible shows what seems to be clear evidence and until I’m shown otherwise and convinced, my belief won’t change but that doesn’t mean I now have to change denominations.
I'm a Muslim, but I watched this to better understand my 'cousins in faith'. It was very informative. I felt the Catholic gentleman was a better speaker and explained his faith much better than White. White was okay, but I felt he felt flat against a more knowledgeable debater. Thank you, uploader, for sharing this. I wish you all peace.
I am a Protestant on the road to becoming Catholic, and this debate was an important piece to my journey. The thing that stood out most to me was how James White had to do cartwheels to explain Biblical passages, and Trent Horn simply read passages and let them speak for themselves...
but again, the point James was making is that Trent's interpretations can't be right if they contradict the rest of the bible... This was stated numerous times. How do you miss it?
John 6:37-44 proves that those "given to Jesus by the Father" ie the "elect" cannot be lost. Fine, as a Catholic, I can completely affirm that. The problem is that advocates of the eternal security doctrine assume without any proof that they are indeed members of the elect when they have no way of knowing that. Furthermore, the elect are not the only ones who receive grace. As the parable of the sower talked about, there are those who "believe for a while...then fall away." They are not of the elect who were predestined to heaven but they did receive at least some grace (as evidenced by the seed going out to them) but after they accepted it, they fell away. And Galatians 5:4 just does not make any sense if it's impossible to be severed from Christ and fall away from grace. White's interpretation of Hebrews 10:29 is simply abysmal.
MatthewP - excellent analysis. Sadly, the first sin is PRIDE. People are so fixated on proving they're right they forget that the important thing is the LEARN from the debate and, in this case, grow closer to Christ (and to cease offending Him and God). Again, excellent work, I pray you keep defending the faith with patience and courage. God bless.
The arguments made by Trent Horn truly do make the most sense, that is why I am Catholic. The theology of Catholicism is not only ancient and comes from the time of Jesus Christ (as opposed to Dr. White's theology which is less than five hundred years old), but the theology of Catholicism makes the most sense as well. We are all made by God and have the choice here on earth to follow and obey God... or to disobey God, to sin gravely and go to hell. When we sin gravely, God will forgive us if we truly repent of our sin(s) and strive to live in holiness. If we do not repent and die in an unrepentant state, then we will go to Hell. God does not choose who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, rather, He KNOWS who is going to Heaven or Hell based on how they respond to His grace. It is WE who make the decision to come to Jesus and stay with Him, or to walk away and continue in sin. We only have such a decision because Jesus Christ died for our sins. If it wasn't for Jesus' death on the cross, none of us would be worth of God's kingdom. We are all unworthy of Heaven because of sin, but Jesus Christ gives us the opportunity to live in righteousness, to do God's will and hold on to the salvation which was given to us by Christ in baptism. But we are human and we make mistakes, so if we sin gravely, for example, by committing murder, then we are not worthy of Heaven unless we repent. According to Dr. White, someone who commits several cold-blooded murders after having been saved is either A) Never a true Christian to begin with or B) Is a true Christian who will later repent of their sin and thus have been saved all along. But you see, this is really barely different from Catholic theology (which is more accurate and more in line with Scripture). In Catholic theology, God knows if you are going to Heaven or Hell, but He does not choose whether or not you go to Heaven or Hell. We are the ones who choose to listen to God who is our Shepherd and follow Him, or to go astray. When we go astray by committing sins (especially mortal sins), Jesus gladly takes us back if we repent. If we do not repent though, then we will be lost and at the end of our lives go to Hell. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.
Stevin, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
@valiant crusader a house divided against itself cannot stand. Are you really of Christ if you're going to attack people who have a different understanding to salvation than you? Also you don't know Roman Catholicism at all. If you did you wouldn't call it pagan.
Hi! May I ask what was it that brought you to Catholicism? I find jehovah’s witnesses to be the most stubborn and hardest to reach in the fact that they don’t even believe Christ to be God and it’s a high control group that doesn’t allow questioning. What made you question?
@@TruthHasSpoken well I realized that a lot of what JW (my family included) would quote to refute or assert their beliefs were mainly taken out of context. Also the fact that JW are taught to distrust the world and anyone who becomes ex fellowships ur suppose to shun them. So friends u had who no longer are JW are completely ignored by everyone who they use to call friends. And another reason is I really like the traditions of the Catholic Church, and after attending the Latin Mass i saw that the focus was put on god and not some preacher on a stage. I use to be combative and say “what authority does this guy have to teach us?!” And then I learned about apostolic succession and the authority given to the priest from Jesus and the apostles then it started to make more sense to me.
@@vman9347 Vman, all praise to the Holy Spirit for stirring your heart. Many never find their way out of Watchtower. It's a blessing that you have and it the Church!
@valiant crusader Be silent demon.. ..by your fruit (at least by the very little or no knowledge you've displayed so far for all to see) you are known. Ill gladly accept your false retort gracefully.
@valiant crusader There's a good path out of your dilemma. Remember, Satan can appear as an angel of light and wreak havoc on your mind. His lies are painfully cunning and I'm no stranger to being duped by them. May God give you what you need to overcome your difficulties and receive the light of Christ's love for you. Be at peace friend. There's much beauty around you. Consider the beauty of the stars, the oceans, and all of God's good creation. Also, there's an encyclical by Pope John Paul II called, "Fides et ratio." Look it up if you get a chance. It contains this opening line, which as you will be able to tell, is in keeping with the goodness of the creation: "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves." God bless you.
@valiant crusader Is this the type of thinking that following James White produces? You might want to pick another theology. I mean, consider what you're saying with the fact that Jesus instructs us to love our enemies. Doesn't it sound to your introspective self like you are condemning everyone? In any case, have a good one man.
@valiant crusader I didn't say I was insulted. I said you have placed yourself in role of God administering judgements out as if you were. You wouldn't make a fair judge at a traffic violation hearing, how do you think you are fairing as the judge of the world? Peace.
@valiant crusader I'll get back with you later. This whole section is an improvement for you. At least you are trying to make a case for yourself beyond simply derogatory terms. The question is, have you understood what is being said in the Bible verses you have quoted as it petains to the way you have decided to carry it out? I don't think so. But again, at least you have expounded a bit. Ttyl.
@valiant crusader May all confusion be dispelled from your heart and the minds of all people and may the Light of Truth shine in them, find out which church Jesus established, which church compiled the bible, and which church was Jesus was talking about when He said in 'Matthew 28:20"Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Why Jesus did not mention purgatory and limbo? Why Jesus did not promote making stone and worship it? Buddhist worship stone version of Buddha. Catholic worship stone fake version of wooden Jesus Christ version. 12 disciples never worship Mary but the Catholic worship Mary as queen of heaven. The gospel of Catholicism is fake. There is no historical evidence that Jesus came and stablish pagan Catholicism.
The answer lies in what the act "refusing" or "accepting" Christ actually means. It is actually a lot more complex than a simple profession. However, in the end, we could not know if we could be saved, since we are all unworthy. On one end, the Scripture tells us that faith alone can justify us. On the other hand, it tells us that faith should not be passive and be manifested in good works centered in Christ's commandment of love. In any the case, our limited mind can only know that much, and only through God's grace can we be saved. Only He can decide on that, we only follow what was taught.
Calvinists believe human beings *have--no--free--will,* and therefore are *not capable* of refusing *or* accepting Christ. Since this position is not supported in a single verse of scripture, they have to resort to extra-biblical measures to confuse you, or in James White's case, mock and ridicule you into silence.
Yes, but that is refusing Jesus. They were never saved. The point is, you can't lose your salvation (after you are saved), because the God will not allow this to happen.
@@davidfigueroa8188 What about the Holy Spirit? When one is saved, is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit. He will never let us fall away from faith. Sin wilfully or reject Jesus. I can't believe the person filled with The Holy Ghost could turn his back away from Jesus. That is one of the most important task of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in believers and fills them. “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16,).The Holy Spirit is a source of revelation, wisdom, and power. (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to believers. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is a seal in the lives of believers. (Ephesians 1:13).
It's unfortunate that Dr White resorted to attacking Catholic doctrine that were not necessarily relevant to this debate. These jabs were, for the most part, ad hominem attacks at Mr Horn trying to discredit him before their mostly Protestant audience.
According to the Bible, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. John 3:18 says those who don't believe are condemned already. Dr. White gives you the proper diagnosis of your condition, Trent Horn tells you, you only have a cold that can go away in a few days. I'd rather get the real diagnosis.
@@hilairebelloc3368 I don't see how condemnation is favorable. Better tell someone the truth than lie to them by encouraging false hope and false piety.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 I did not say that "condemnation," in the bleak and Calvinistic sense of the term, was the real diagnosis. The real diagnosis is that the image of God remains, albeit tarnished almost beyond recognition, and that grace is well within the grasp of the will, if only it would turn to grasp it.
So glad this is up for all to see! Trent Horn made it so easy to see that James White was preaching a false gospel. Thanks for uploading this Catholic Answers! We love your work of spreading God's Word!
Thank you GGodHand! Catholic Answers played a huge part in helping me to realize that the Catholic Christian Church is the One Church that Christ created, and I'm glad to be a part of a community that helps Christians find Christ's Church. We love seeing your comments! Thank you.
Hi Soldier of Christ 111, Thank you! That is very much appreciated! We loved seeing the great work that Catholic Answers was doing for Christ's Church, so we decided to try to do our part as well. Thanks for being the 200th!
How To Be Christian Not so... The Catholic Church is in many ways demonic, in its institution of false and man made mandates that enslave and subjugate its followers to remain in their vicious cycle.
I appreciate the love! And yes, I love his work and how we respects those he debates. That is awesome! I really like Trent too. This is my first time encountering him, but I love his mind and demeanor. i would love to see another debate between them soon!
Does the possibility exist for former Christians to lose salvation (supposing a protestant framework of understanding salvation itself)? Yes or No? If No, then how do you know with absolute certainty that they were never saved in the first place? If you claim that Scripture tells you so, my question for you is, is your interpretation of scripture fallible or infallible. If you assert “fallible,” then that means that your private interpretation is subject to error, which also means that you can’t be absolutely certain that ALL former Christians were never saved. Now suppose someone claimed that they were morally certain that ALL former Christians were never saved. My question for you is, does the possibility exist for SOME former Christians to have BEEN SAVED? If you responded “no”, then you’re claiming absolute certainty. However, Protestants can’t have this level of certainty regarding their private interpretation of scriptures. Hence, the possibility exists for SOME former Christians to have been saved, but lost their salvation due to apostasy. Hence the Reformed doctrine of Eternal Security is false.
That´s no argument. You have to see that there are 2 Typs of Faith (Clearly shown in the Bible) 1: Saving Faith (True believer/Reborn) 2: False Faith (No true Conversion/Not Reborn) There is not one Clear Passage where it is mentioned that a Born again Beliver can lose his Salvation. For eternal Salvation there are as you heard in the Debate clear verses which are clear for reborn beliver. It was interessant to hear the point of Horn that "God gives the Grace of perseverance to thouse which love to the end"(more grace to some then to other, because they worked more? Thats not what the bible teaches) but don´t seeing that they would not need this grace because God knows that they will love until the end, so why giving the grace. They would and have mantained their own Salvation, but to dont say that, you are saying "no God gives the Grace to those" so that you can say the glory is of God because he gives the Grace of perseverance. Thats not honest . It is grace to say God gives the grace of perservance to thouse which "Humble themselfs and Recognize that they cant earn they own salvation and put their trust in Jesus Christ, thats the one that is reborn of the Holy Spirit by the word and have decided to follow jesus christ after being convicted by the Holy Spirit and died for themselfs and got new life by the SPirit of God" (You can not be UNreborn; like now you cant say i dont want to be Unborn and dont exist/You have no power over that and this is predestined in the way of no one asked you if you want to exist our not, God decided to/. So you are saying i could not save my self, but now i can keep my salvation by myself and even more, i have to earn my salvation and mantain my salvation by works? The big problem of the people are the tradition. As Jesus already said to the Pharisee and Sadducees. And you really think that Jesus will add something to himself? Thats very blinded. Psalm 119:9 John 1:1;14/ John 14:26/ John 15:26/ John 16:13/ 1.Joh 2:27 Repent and belive in the Gospel You only need the bible and the holy spirit and he will Guide you in all truth.
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco My third response because I did not address your tradition comment. Their is no problem with Tradition from God but Tradition of Men is what the problem is. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Also Jesus recognizes The Pharisees Influence 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. Jeremiah 23:4 I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, says the Lord. Multiple Shepherds (plural) Mark 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will all become deserters; for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered. Jesus is the first shepherd Then makes Peter a Shepherd John 21:15-1715 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. A person who feeds lambs, tends sheep, and feeds sheep is only a shepherd. Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it. I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN. Peter got the authority to bind and to loose (Traditions are biblical)
That’s not the way it works. It appears as though you can lose it because we humans cannot determine who is in fact real Christians. Even the biggest Christian apologists have become non Christian. It’s unpredictable. The warnings are from a human perspective. Additionally, a backslider and a non believer can look similar yet one is saved and the other is not. Again we humans cannot determine it so to us, it is 50/50 and hence the warnings are there and also to support the backsliders. So this argument doesn’t make any sense.
I wish he would have asked White directly about this. OK, you could say that Jesus might provide "guidance" to the saved as to how they should live, etc. by why warnings? A warning sayings "be careful of X or otherwise Y will result." But according to White "Y" (loss of salvation) can *never* result, so why warn?
Mr. Horn. I really appreciate what you did here. Good Job. I'm a protestant (I,m not on any journey to turn catholic or anything, by the way) but in this debate I learned so much how to confront calvinism. Thank you. God bless you.
I’m a former anti Catholic Protestant that was very slowly converted to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ. My guardian Angel started my journey in a very startling way that got me shaking from terror because he asked me if what I believe really is the truth. I’d never questioned it before. So, I asked God to guide me to his truth and send someone to teach it to me. And he did.
Thanks Trent your one my top ten Catholic Convert Apologists Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Steve Ray and many more. I love my Catholic faith I was lost and you let me back. God bless everyone who seeks the truth.
Trent Horn converted to Catholicism because: It made the most biblical sense. It is the only faith that brought him to a practice of christianity that mostly resembles that of the members of the early church. His explanation, not mine.
You mean he became religious like a Pharisee? Jesus's harshest words and condemnation was towards the Pharisees! You are deceived! The catholic church is apostate and teaches heresy!
We cannot say Calvinism is Biblical based on a few isolated texts which are more often than not, quoted out of context. Please listen to the debate prayerfully then respond. God bless
Trent: “ Because my opponent’s theology has to be true first, the bible has to fit it. Our theology should come from the bible not the bible from our theology” Great Job! Trent. Dang!!!!
Ultimately Trent won. Because accurate and Orthodox soteriology should presuppose scriptural balance. And Orthodox and Catholic make the best efforts for balance between the Scriptures and Epistles, But Calvinists will always pit Paul against Moses and go through mental gymnastics to cling to their self evidently heretical belief.
This was a major issue for myself and my wife. It was absolutely astonishing to read the Church Fathers and realize, after being raised in evangelicalism my entire life, the errors of protestantism. We were stunned, and coming to the knowledge of the ancient Faith, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, we have been greatly blessed.
The church fathers are an interesting topic, however their written words are not God-breathed. The Spirit says that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we have hope. The Spirit also says that men receive the Word and then it is choked out.
@@ericdelanoy9570 The question that I have for you then is do you have an infallible interpretation of scripture? Or, if you prefer, do you have an infallible systematic theology through which you interpret them?
Gabe no, neither. I have what God has graciously given. The question you ask I have heard before from Catholics and Orthodox, I’m just not sure I see it’s place. Are you suggesting that Church tradition/fathers are infallible? Or the pope? Is it something you have that Protestants (I don’t really call myself that) don’t? Do I need infallible interpretation to be right about the meaning of a text? Doesn’t the Scripture say to “study” and “let each one be convinced in his own mind”, implying by the Reading of the Word and the Holy Spirit helping? Lots of questions, hope they are a coherent response to your question.
@@ericdelanoy9570 You don't see it's place because you don't see the lenses that you're looking at the world, and especially, scripture through. Whatever you've been given, the Scriptures (and I assume you are missing the deutero-cannon), you have because of a faithful transmission of them, from one apostle to the next, as well as a liturgy and interpretation transmitted by what we call Tradition as well.
Gabe that doesn’t answer any of the questions I asked. I, of course, could say the same thing to you. Rather than that if we ask some good questions we might get somewhere near the bottom of this. Also, the Christian has been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness. And, I’m not sure if your saying this or not, but if your arguing that without the apocryphal books that I don’t have the Scripture (let’s assume it is inspired Scripture), I would say the writers of the NT would disagree. Early Christians didn’t have their own Bibles, and their assemblies would typically only have parts but the Scripture with Christ dwelling in them they have everything (again) necessary for life and godliness (words written before the canon was complete).
@ktownbball ktownbball Christ said we will be judged by our work not by our faith so you Protestant heretics must’ve twisted saint Paul’s epistle or misunderstood like you do the bible only the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret the bible
Ephesians 6 verse 12 comes to mind. It is most important to remember that it is the forces of darkness that tempt us every day of our time here on earth. Tempting our own flesh and heart, as they tempt ALL others by way of the flesh and the heart. We must remember the commandment of our father to pray (without ceasing) in the son’s holy name ✝️ We bring our thoughts into the captivity and obedience of Christ, and rebuke all temptation in his holy name so help us God Amen 🙏🏼
And, what was Trent Horn doing? Triggering White by calling out Calvinism, and attacking his theology. James White shut his mouth at, 2:13:00. A lesson for Horn - Don't mess with White!
@@danwilliams349 uhhh the debate was about some of the core doctrines of Calvinism (ever hear of Tulip?) The doctrines that white brought up were not a part of the debate.
Dr. White said at 0:20 that "what we're doing here has more eternal impact", but if God has already predestined everything, then that doesn't make sense.
this is why a lot of their theology cannot support itself. a lot of converted catholics from protestantism was told by other protestant that they will remain sinful, but when they were protestant they already accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, so they cannot tell ex protestant that they remain sinful, because they believe once saved always saved.
Wow! Trent Horn you truly had the upper hand in this and clearly "won" the debate. Especially towards the questions part, he didn't have a direct answer to your questions, kept going around in circles and talking about unnecessary things. It's so hard to listen to him, but with your presentation on the subject, Mr. Horn, I truly feel blessed and I've learned a lot! Thank you.
i’m an ex protestant who is now a revert catholic. i was incredibly anti-catholic before and now i’ve fully come back to my catholic roots. i have read several books on catholicism and i love trent horn’s “Why We’re Catholic” and am soon to read his “The Case for Catholicism”. trent is the man, such a humble genius
@@angelicalee6 That is your own perception in this but really, or you trust in Jesus sacrifice or trust in your own works, through Mary, through purgatory, though money paid in Mass. At the end, you catholics believe you can Not loose your salvation. Did you see it? This is why God is Not God of confusion. Your god is...
@@angelicalee6 l was part of catholic system for many years… until l started reading the Bible. Truth set me free. Purgatory is not in the Bible. The miraculous appearance of Mary who asked that a temple be built to venerate her is foreign to the writings of the apostles. Peter's letter does not talk about her. He only talks about being a servant of Jesus Christ. and you say that Peter is the first pope... all popes are devoted followers of Mary and Peter in his two letters, he never mentioned her. I speak according to the revelation of Christ and the foundation of the apostles. I don't know about you, but if you claim to be from God, you would have to renounce all doctrine of men. In the end you proclaim another way, another message of salvation, another Christ, another means of salvation. If they bring out Mary as a co-intercessor, they lose their business like Diana's followers in the book of acts.
James White was more on theoretical, less on biblical, which was in contrast with Mr. Trent's... No bias, I am a Catholic but I am very satisfied with Mr. Trent's explanation... Proud being Catholic.
System Guy plenty of specific verses were give in the debate, they were heavily dismissed by Mr White. Or were you inquiring on something more specific, verses that speak to something in particular?
Of course you can. Once-saved-always-saved is an un-biblical, non-sensical fantasy. Making "sovereignty" mean a denial of free will and the need for cooperation is a way to have something we aren't supposed to have: the final judgement now.
Thank you Trent Horn! Fantastic job. It took me 8 years of studying to realize I was baptized in the true Church of Christ. I've been on both sides of the Christian world, I can't be on the protestant side anymore. I love my devoted protestant brothers and sisters, but I can't be one. The idea that once saved always saved makes no sense whatsoever. We all know people who do whatever they want, behave in horrific ways in this world, and yet argue they are saved forever and ever. It just sounds so easy peasy in so many denominations. It's not easy to be a devout Catholic, but Jesus didn't promise "easy." I can't live without without the Holy Scriptures, without the authority of the Church, nor without our sacred Tradition, just can't. Thank you Catholic Answers for posting!
The Orthodox Church is the one true Church. The Patriarch of Rome split from the other four Patriarchs in the 11th century, creating Roman Catholicism.
@@davidfigueroa8188 actually you might want to do some proper research. Before the schism Catholics and Orthdoxy weee supersets but still friendly and they still ‘recognised’ the Seat of Peter in Rome. However it wasn’t until the Muslims that started entering the east of Europe and they inevitably forced the orthodox to walk away from Catholicism
Trent Horn was amazing here, for a younger apologist. Just Imagine if he had the age and experience of White. It would have been a no contest. Trent has a bright future ahead of him that's for sure. Thanks for the upload Catholic Answers!
What a fruitful and respectful discussion. Debates have their time and place in the church, and I’m thankful for these scholars taking the time to dig for the truth.
True, one is saved by the grace of GOD and not by works as said by Paul - but if you'll read the synoptic gospels, you'll find that Christ said, "Love GOD with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, *and* love your neighbor as yourself." So how can one can be bestowed or granted the said *grace of salvation* ? It is by truly obeying GOD - that is, by doing *works of love* . Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan - where Christ explicitly commanded the learned person who asked Him how he could inherit eternal life or salvation: "Then *go and do* the same." Peace and GOD bless...
A person that believes in Jesus Christ is Saved Jesus said He who believes in me Has eternal life , then if that person sins or lives the faith his eternal life was not eternal but temporal , please read 1a cor 5: 1-5 this man was in adultery with his fathers wife and Paul say at the end will be saved.
As a protestant i can say that Trent schooled James White. Also i as a protestant can say i believe in Communion of the saints, baptismal regenaration, the holy eucharist and maybe even the virginity of Mary. I was anti Catholic but now i see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ even though i dont agree with everything. God bless
@@aaronquinn6626 I am a biblicist. I accept what the Bible teaches. I also affirm the trinity, does this mean I am a Roman Catholic or a Christian. I affirm many things that Protestants would condemn me for but I don’t care. I accept Catholics, orthodoxs as fellow Christians
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 I didnt say you aren't Christian, you claimed you are protestant and then said you follow some Dogmas. These concepts are at odds, you cannot be both.
@@aaronquinn6626 well I am a Christian biblicist who is always protesting. I don’t have to classify myself as something. Some would say I am a Protestant others would say I am a heretic and others say I am embracing this or that. I read the Bible and follow what it says. Traditions can be true if they match scripture
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 Fine you just agreed with me. I didn't say you have to call yourself anything but you surely are not a Protestant by holding dogmatic beliefs.
@1:55:03 Trent Horn loses the debate and exposes the reason why Roman Catholicism is apostate. He says not all those who are justified are glorified in Romans 8. Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30
@@theamerican4609 Yes I do know, Satan. Romans 8:30 is one of many scriptures that tell me I am. Since I've been justified before God by believing the gospel, I know I'm predestined by God. Catholics can't know because they are never justified ever, in this life or after death. Read the 6th session of the council of Trent Canon 24. Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30 NIV
@@elunico13 You didn't answer my question but instead just repeated scripture. How do you know you are predestined? Many have believed in the gospel as fervently as you and have 'fallen away", therefore you don't KNOW, you just believe it to be true as you should, but you may also fall away as others have because you can't know, you cannot foresee the future. Why would one have to "hope" and to "win the race" or claim to have "fought the good fight" if once you believe you can't fall away? Clearly, you fight for something you can lose; if you don't win, you lose; and if you hope, then it is because it is not a certainty.
I'm a protestant Christian and I feel like Trent is more of a brother in the Lord then Dr White, by how Trent handled the Scripture. Twist not Scripture lest ye be like the devil.
Keviar, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
Don't leave your protestant faith because you do not understand everything as a protestant, Catholicism is anathema and you will see this when the return of our Lord and Saviour, just because you watched this from a Catholic uploader and obviously all the Catholic and Muslim commenting will be one-sided, if you are a true evangelical protestant Christian then watch on an unbiased upload. Don't fall away brother, in fact you can't fall away if you are in the Lord's elect, it is impossible. Catholic and Muslims know not Christ and Christ will profess in that day that He never knew them, I promise you that with my life
@@The1SilverShadow If I recall correctly, James White's ministry has the same video uploaded in their RUclips Channel, as well as other debates, but somehow their comments section are disabled? Maybe that's why he went here.
Brother Trent you are amazing. Thank you brother in Christ. And a huge thank you to Catholic Answers for putting this important and informative video up.
@@mole215 I'll show you :) Trent conceded the argument during his presentation but it specifically stood out in the cross examination. I will do my best the explain what I mean thoroughly so bear with me please. The topic of the debate is "Can a Christian lose their salvation?" In other words, are their Christians who will receive something from God that will guarantee their perseverance in the faith all the way till the end? Guaranteed? Meaning they cannot lose it? We begin at 1:11:28. James white begins his cross examination asking about the gifts of grace to the elect regarding salvation. Trent categorizes the groups in which God supposedly gives grace to. He essentially states that there is a group that is given grace yet this grace they receive is not that which secures unto final salvation (1:13:00) James white asks, "He elects them to be temporary believers?" Trent "yes....they are people who had grace but fell from it" James white (reiterating the question) "So there are elect people not elected to salvation." Trent "yes..." Then there is another category of people who receive grace, but this time these elect receive the grace of perseverance unto final salvation which GUARANTEES eternal security, a quality of grace which the first group did NOT receive. 1:14:46 James white here ask that question of this second group. Will their gift of grace guarantee them their salvation? Trent says "yes." Which is why James White rightly so follows up with the question, "isn't that what I believe?" Trent is saying that in this category of believers, God gives something to them that He does not give to everyone else. That is the gift of perseverance unto final salvation. Meaning these Christians cannot lose their salvation because God has given them a grace that will guarantee the outcome of salvation. By affirming this statement, you have answered the question. These Christians who are given the gift of perseverance unto final salvation cannot lose their salvation therefore answering the question in this debate. I hope that was helpful and clear. Great debate!
@@danielsingh9701 that doesn't concede the debate. The questions was, can A christian lose their salvation, as in, can any individual saved person be unsaved. Trent simply conceded that some cannot. But this does not concede that no individual christian can.
@valiant crusader I understand your passion, but frankly your hatred for "falsehood" seems to include hatred for those you perceive as practicing a false branch of the SAME FAITH
@valiant crusader okay, then why do you accuse Catholics of paganism? You might see certain aspects of RC faith as paganistic, but the issue is you use that as a derogatory insult
I can definitely see how one can read that and say “one group didn’t live in love working through faith so they were never saved, but the other group did and that was a testament to their true faith and salvation”.
@@MarkelBeverley Well, that passage is not an issue if you believe in Ephesians 2:10 along with 1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6. That is also where some believe in the perseverance of the saints and lordship salvation. In no sense does James 2:14-16 indicate losing salvation, but rather it’s talking about a fake, not real faith, the same kind of faith that Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower. But hey, I’m not here to argue or debate. I just think it’s important to accurately understand and represent what your counterpart believes.
@@Migler1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6 and especially Ephesians 2:10 doesn't refute the fact that what God prepared for us is predicated on what he desires for us. That alone does not determine what we, agents of free will, will ultimately do. Also to Phil 1:6, penance has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins and paying off the eternal debt that sin incurs. Christ did that once and for all on the cross and those graces are applied to us when we repent. Penance comes after forgiveness and has to do with repairing the harm that sin causes. James is not speaking on salvation in a temporal sense. He says faith itself is dead. In fact, he makes the point vividly by comparing it to a corpse: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead” But hey, I'm not here to argue or debate either. I just think it's important to accurately understand and represent sacred scripture as well as sacred tradition.
Simple, losing salvation assumes human will ability to cause loss. Christ never once talked like that. Jesus infact said those who love him, who are already saved, WILL obey. They WILL do the will of the father. He and the apostles NEVER say “choose to obey” or “choose to believe”. Jesus says - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. Paul said- Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed. People who believe do not exit practiced sin, by human will. The spirit of God renews them and causes them to exit that life. Paul- And you WERE dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But did we exit??? Or did God cause us to exit??? But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, MADE us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- Watch… and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Now….where is our will in any of that??? Where is our willed cooperation??? Paul tells us what cannot cause loss. Romans 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Dr. James White obviously is looking at this thru Calvanist Glasses. He is so wrong and needs to re-evaluate his stance. Truth is Truth in spite of one's own ignorance or self deception. Great Job Trent Horn!
I think you’re looking through your fallen flesh blinded eyes I think you need to actually study scripture and pray that God opens your eyes to his wisdom and truth🤷♀️
@@eugene3484 never been in Calvinism I just believe scripture that God sovereign he elects people to salvation and he predestined them before the foundation of the world leave the lie of free will the man centered doctrine
@@carolwilliams383 so he chooses people to go to heaven and chooses people to go to hell. What a nice guy. God is good all the time, all the time God is good. So glad he chose me. Lucky me.
@@eugene3484 maybe you if you read Romans nine you’d understand..18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Hopefully, you understand scripture
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!
So let me get this straight... a Sola Scriptura Christian like Mr. White said at 1:27:49 that the average person can't grasp Hebrews 10: 29 if he didn't understand the book of Leviticus... Are you kidding me? it's a good thing this was not a Sola Scriptura debate because in the next sentence Mr. White makes a reference to "church history"... smh
Great job Trent. God bless you, and your 10 closing statement was fantastic. I am a practicing cradled Catholic. I have always known I am in the right faith, but at my age of 60, I want to be able to defend and explain it better to others. I have learn so much from you Trent. I love how you keep your cool, also. Thank you so much.
@@markmeyer4532 Trent is one of my favorites to listen to when explaining our Catholic Faith. I also love Brant Pitre. Our faith is so enriched with the Scriptures. Praise you Lord Jesus Christ.
Why does the Catholic Church call themselves “Christians”? From my experience they don’t read scripture for themselves. We are to be Good BAREANS ❤‼️ why do you listen to doctrines of men who add to and take away from the “Word of Truth”⁉️ according to scripture any one who does this should be ACCURSED ‼️💯
@1:59:14 - 1:59:38, James White says (as part of the audience applauses): "No one can know whether they have fulfilled all the conditions necessary for achieving justification, and the dividing line between us this evening is; One fulfilled all those conditions for justification, his name was Jesus Christ, and if I am in Him by faith, then that’s why I have peace with God.” Nowhere does Scripture even allude, implicitly or unambiguously, that Jesus Christ vicariously “fulfilled all the conditions necessary for achieving justification” solely on our behalf in the sense that we do not have to. In fact, Scripture alone explicitly and clearly states how the righteous requirement of the law, or, namely, that the righteous requirement of justification will be fulfilled IN US: “that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled IN US who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” - Romans 8:4 (NKJV) When you are cut off and severed from the fulness of grace, the very grace that gets infused into your soul by the working of the Holy Spirit, particularly in the Holy Communion of Our Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, partaking in the Divine Nature that enables and empowers you to “fulfill the righteous requirement of the law”, then yes, it makes sense that you are driven to succumbing to a doctrine of faith alone in an external righteousness that never even touches your supposedly “depraved soul”.
As a cradle Catholic I can say when I was a teenager I heard the the protestant version of the gospel and was drawn in by the easy grace they proposed and the longer I listened the more I realized that they all believed different versions of truth. The more I juggled all these different versions the more I realized that the holy spirit would not give us a divided Christianity that Martin Luther gave. So thankful I realized the true church that I was baptized in.
Islam, Mormons, and JW's are also united in their belief. We aren't confused about how to receive salvation, and that's what matters since we all intend to endure to the end either way.
@barelyillegal As a cradle Catholic the Church NEEDED Reformation during the 1500's. But what Luther did is WRONG, he BROKE AWAY and SPLINTERED Christianity.
@@Barefootseal_66 many protestants believe once saved always saved. Which means you can sin all you want... all the murder, rape, etc. and you'll still go to heaven if you were baptized or you simply believe in Jesus Christ died for our sins. That is a real teaching a hundreds of churches in this country. I've been to many, spoken to many people personally and watched many "pastor/preachers" online via text as well as RUclips videos teach this " "once saved always saved and go to heaven" false Gospel. I'm not making this up, nobody in Christian history believed this or taught this until Martin Luther taught this. He literally said people should kill thou. This is the same man that many people who new him thought he was mad and had a real mental problem. He said he sometimes hated God. And he was a known anti Semite and was quoted saying he wanted to murder Jews and hang them from the gallows. Jesus was Jewish by the way so this is wild to think an anti Semite teaching about Jesus. This is the man protestants get there teachings from. It's quite sad really. Most have no idea the history of who gave them there false protestant teachings. "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" -Martin Luther
I feel sorry for Dr. James White for he is a smart man and have learned so much about the truth of God through many debates with Catholic apologists but still remain in his own believe. Will continue to pray for Dr. James Whites conversion..
Amanda, we feel sorry for you. If you're relying on your own works in any way or part as a means of salvation, then Christ is of no effect to you. You are lost if you believe in faith + works. Period. Please read God's Word without looking through the corrupted lens of Catholicism. It's clear as can be.
Hi Rick Stark. How are you doing? I think you are an intelligent Christian. Your love for Christ is very strong and open. That's why you're willing to spend time to defend and explain about your belief to all our brothers and sisters in this youtube. To be honest, my knowledge is limited. Therefor, I challenge you to call our brother in Christ Dr. David Anders is a convert who will answer to all your questions about Jesus's true teaching. I promise you he will answer you to your satisfaction. His show is "Called to Communion" start at 2pm ET, 1800-585-9396 or 205-271-2985. God bless..
Rick Stark have you read revelation 2:2-5 take the concept of it to define faith + work mean...no human work can be good enough infront of God but can faith alone be good enough too ?? One Killer can have faith on what jesus did for our salvation but if he is not showing work for what christ did for salvation can this killer be saved ???
It comes down to 1 truth. From what do you derive faith in your hope of heaven, your life that you live currently or the life JESUS lived for you. PERIOD there's ONE work Jesus asked for and that was to BELIEVE IN THE ONE SENT.
White's positions were based on NEWLY INVENTED biblical interpretations. He couldn't find any early Church Father from the first 1500 years of christianity that supports the Calvinist position. It's a MANMADE INVENTION.
@valiant crusader Dear fellow Christian, The fact is division is instigated by the devil, whose name means "the divider". It is factual that protestantism today is divided into possibly as many as 68,000 churches and sects around the world; all in an effort to follow Martin Luther's invented doctrine called: "Sola Scriptura", a theory absent in the Bible. However, what does exist is UNITY around the ever prominent authority of an Apostolic Magisterium formed by Jesus Christ around His Twelve Apostles and their successors. LET US REFLECT ON THE UNDENIABLE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE. FIRST, Jesus founded ONE CHURCH: MATTHEW 16:18-19 18. And I tell YOU, YOU are PETER, and on THIS ROCK I will BUILD MY CHURCH, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. . 19. I will GIVE YOU the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you BIND on earth shall be BOUND in HEAVEN, and whatever you LOOSE on earth shall be LOOSED in HEAVEN.” SECOND, A mission was given by Jesus to His ONE CHURCH, promising to never leave Her alone; even to the end of the world: MATTHEW 28:19-20 19. Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, to the close of the age.” ("With you" is a singular reference to HIS one Church) THIRD, Truth is guaranteed constantly and forever to the ONE CHURCH founded by Jesus. JOHN 17: 18-19 18. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. 19. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be CONSECRATED IN TRUTH. JOHN 16: 12-15 12. “I HAVE yet MANY THINGS TO SAY TO YOU, but you cannot bear them now. 13. When the SPIRIT of TRUTH comes, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that HE WILL TAKE WHAT IS MINE and DECLARE IT TO YOU. FOURTH, Constant UNITY will always be the main identifier of the Church founded by Jesus, as he clearly promised in: JOHN 17: 20-23 20. “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21. so that THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may BE IN US, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 1 CORINTHIANS 10:16-17 16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17. Because there is one bread, WE who are many ARE ONE BODY, for we all partake of the ONE BREAD. FIFTH, Obedience to Jesus' established Apostolic Magisterium, is what fulfills the plan of UNITY for His ONE and ONLY CHURCH: ●LUKE 10:16 16. 'Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.' ("YOU" is His singular Church). MATTHEW 18:17 17. If he refuses to listen to them, tell THE CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to THE CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. ("The Church" is singular, it doesn't mean a plurality of churches). May God bless your discernment.
This debate actually made me come to Catholicism. I wasn't sure of all the other Catholic Doctrines, but I began to listen to Brant Pitre, Scott Hahn, and other Catholic Answer speakers, including Trent Horn. As nice as life could be not needing to confess my sins to a priest and what not, logic and truth can only take you the the Catholic Church. I was born into a Catholic family, but when I really came to Christ at 20 years old, I was anti Catholic because I was listening to Protestants only and had a lot of protestant friends and was a few weeks from joining their church so I would say I was very unbiased. They cherry pick. Catholics really look at the hole picture and make sense.
Where’s the Mary adoration come from? 😳 be careful. Mass gives more focus to her than our Savior Himself! Rome has fell away from pure doctrine and pursuit of Jesus.
@@Amencore that is false! You are lying and you clearly have never been to Mass. Mary is only ever mentioned once in the entire mass and only during the recitation of the Creed where she's referenced as having given birth to our Lord Jesus, and even then it's in the context of her relationship to Our Lord. The entire mass is dedicated to worshipping God, our Father, Lord and Saviour. No one else. You clearly have never been to mass, otherwise you'd know this, which only makes it clear how your goal is not to inform but just to calumniate Catholics.
It's very easy to fall into protestantism. It's literally everywhere, especially in the USA. In inner city areas theres always at least 5 or 6 protestant churches of competing denominations where there is only 1 Catholic church if you're lucky. We are constantly bombarded by protestant influenced media that pushes, whether consciously or unconsciously, its protestant view of the world on us. Catholics are always being singled out, made fun of, or criticized by most protestant sects constantly as being wrong when they can't even agree on basic theology. To them we are always the bad guys, that is until they need an exorcism (I wonder why?). If you're a nominal catholic that doesn't fully know his own faith, it's easy to cave to the protestant accusations and believe their lies or worse their heresies. Thats why it's important to read the Bible but also the Church Fathers and the Catechism to know why we believe what we believe. Because our beliefs don't come from nowhere, they come from the written word of the Bible and the unwritten word of the Apostolic Tradition that St. Paul asked us to hold on to and which our protestant brothers have forsaken. The Bishop of Rome sits on the seat of St. Peter, as the Patriarch of Constantinople sits on the seat of St. Andrew and the Bishop of Alexandria once sat on the seat of St. Mark. Let no one tell you that Catholics are not Christians for we, together with the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Churches, are the original Christians. We are the early church to whom protestant sects love to compare themselves to ironically. Stay strong in your faith brother.
1:47:00 to 1:48:12 James White dismantles his own argument...perfect response by Horn, "how do you fall from grace if you never had it in the first place" lol 😆
The same way that the sun moves from east to west even though it stands still and the earth revolves. Both frames of reference are valid. Choose one and stick with it, and you'll describe the interaction between the sun and earth correctly. Switch midstream and you'll confuse the scenario. *. God forekows, predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies. * Man hears the gospel, believes, confesses, calls on the Lord, stays faithful till the end and is saved on Judgment Day. Both perspectives are valid. Hearing the gospel is a grace. Believing truly is a different kind of grace. Trent is conflating the two when he asks your question.
Interesting when Trent started his cross examination, he tried to find some common ground with James by connecting with him over which city he lives in, and James writes him off with a cheeky response about how many others also live in this city.
@@gregcooper3773 but according to James white he is not prideful, lol. you will know them by their denomination. If you take that into effect notice how this kind of people treat anyone else. Why be nice, why do anything if I am saved. Biggest question is how do you know if you are chosen. How do you measure.
@@Knildragon it’s far more complex than Arminius or Calvin bud. You keep bending scripture to stay within your doctrine and keep telling everyone else their way is “man centered”. You Calvinists are modern day Pharisee
By what authority does James White proclaim the “correct” way to interpret the Bible? He uses the words of the Church Fathers to justify his position - however he does not accept the authority of those same fathers???
How do you conclude they are the words of the 'church fathers'? Because they said so? Seems to me you are standing on circular reasoning rather than on what is God-breathed.
@@cassandragarcia5548 You sound awfully sure of your salvation. You even seem to boast about it; even mocking another believer in Christ. In fact, you seem far more assured and confidant than the Apostle Paul in his earlier life, who said: 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
read the context they were fighting over who was better/being baptized and or taught by a specific apostle. So he tells them to focus on christ not the servants of Christ because you cant see there true intents when they preach/teach @@yes_senpai8880
Do you not realise that White is actually correct and logical to draw this inference from Trents statement. This is what Trent declared. And by the way he was correct to do so. Sola Scriptura is so grounded and rooted all through Scripture, that it's simply astonishing that anyone seriously debates it. None other than Saint Peter holds us to this principle and He will allow nothing other than God's word to be uttered in the church: "If ANYONE speak, let him speak AS THE ORACLE'S of GOD" (1 Peter 4:11) But this idea is not merely Apostolic... Already false teachers were uttering the traditions of men in the church of the Old Testament days. Now God had already commanded that we must use the principle of Sola Scriptura in all our teaching, by the hand of his servant Moses. And the Lord attached the penalty of death to all who violate this. "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak A WORD IN MY NAME, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." (Deuteronomy 18:20) And disobedience to Sola Scriptura had become such a problem during the apostasy of the Old Testament Jewish church in the days of Jeremiah, that God warned: "Behold, I am AGAINST the PROPHETS, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, 'HE SAITH'. " (Jeremiah 23:31) And of these the Lord complained: "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied... Yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart". (Jeremiah 23:21, 26) And so God held the church to the principle of Sola Scriptura also then as now: 'He that hath MY WORD, let him SPEAK MY WORD FAITHFULLY. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 23:28) And Isaiah states it like this: "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20) Trent still speaks like a Christian inasmuch as he holds to Scripture Alone and confesses true Christian doctrine. The Calvinist White, however, comes across as truly arrogant in this debate. And in fact, it ought to be made very clear that Calvinists do not follow Sola Scriptura, not by a country mile! Since the days of Ulrich Zwingli and his successors, they have replaced the pope in Rome along with his private interpretations, with an army of Calvinistic and reformed popes. Instead of one great pope, they have an army of little popes, all giving their own interpretations! Such is the state of reformed Christianity, whether Calvinist, semi-Calvinist or Armenian. So while in fact White was right to point out the principle of Sola Scriptura, his arguments were riddled with error and Calvinist reasonings. Whereas Trent was right to point out that a true Christian can indeed fall away and be finally lost if he or she dies in unrepented sin... For it stands written: "When I shall say to THE RIGHTEOUS, that HE SHALL SURELY LIVE ..... IF he trust to his own righteousness, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but FOR HIS INIQUITY that he hath committed, HE SHALL DIE for it." (Ezekiel 33:13) And again: "IF ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YE SHALL LIVE." (Romans 8:13)
@@mathete9968Your statement is demonstratively false! Sola scriptura is found NOWHERE in scripture, and none of the texts you present do anything to show otherwise. Tradition is also infallible according to scripture! See 1 thes 2:13 "And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from HEARING us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe." And 1 Peter 1:24-25 "for: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; but the word of the Lord remains forever.” This is the word that has been PROCLAIMED to you." 2 thes 2:15 "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." 2 thes 3:6 "We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us." No passage in scripture EVER teaches that true doctrine should be drawn from scripture alone! Sacred Scripture AND sacred tradition is the word of God! And when trent stated "we should get our theology from the bible" he is correct! But notice he did not say "ONLY from the bible!" And james white proceeded to twist his words in a way that Trent clearly did not intend to imply!
@@Eric-1776 He will never do so. He has explicitly said that it is sinful and will never bind the Church to an error like that. Sixth ecumenical council "For this is the rule of the true faith, which this spiritual mother of your most tranquil empire, the Apostolic Church of Christ (The Roman Church), has both in prosperity and in adversity always held and defended with energy; which, it will be proved, by the grace of Almighty God, has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations, but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ (Peter and Paul), and remains undefiled unto the end, according to the divine promise of the Lord and Saviour himself, which he uttered in the holy Gospels to the prince of his disciples: saying, Peter, Peter, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for you, that (your) faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren."
@@Eric-1776 is this what you’re banking on? Because if so as it stands, there are protestant pastors and denominations today that bless and marry same sexes. So yea….
much respect to Mr.Horn and Dr.White :D both were calm and have their arguments said explicitly. I am reformed and I respect Trent, very articulate! :)
Trent Horn thanks you cleared away all confusion, you dispelled it from the hearts and minds of all people listening to you. May the Light of Truth shine on all our separated brethren.
@@silveriorebelo8045 Don't use that phrasing "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." 1 Peter 3 15:16 GENTLENESS AND RESPECT
@@christopherneedham9584 Anathema or not, they are separated brethren we are obligated to bring back, but DO NOT use inflammatory language. That's unchristian. See my other comment.
@@crusaderACR as per the counsel of Trent, they are not separated brethren. They are anathematized heretics. All Catholics who argue against this are opposition to the dogmatic teachings in that counsel.
I think watching this debate with all Mr White statements really prove me that I am less patient than I thought. I don't know how Trent did to remain calm. Great job Trent, you exposed your point with so many grace, charity and clarity. Keep on the good work, and God bless you for what you're doing for his church.
I would say white won this, but just barely. I agree with whites position, but from a neutral standpoint, I would say, Trent did an awesome job explaining himself. The reason I agree with white is because white reads text exegetically and Trent reads plainly. White reads hermeneutically through an exegetical contextual point of view and Trent reads from an “open book read as you see it” kind of approach. The scripture themselves say that you can’t just read scripture plainly because if you’re reading it from the point of view of unregenerate unbeliever, you won’t understand it. Scripture is a spiritually discerned text.
@@explodingrubberducky797 put another way, would you agree the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to them , and they are not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned?
@@HillbillyBlack You're taking that from 1 Corinthians 2:14. However, that's not necessarily talking strictly about unbelievers. Because in the next chapter 3. Paul tells the Corinthians this: 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; *for until now you were not able to receive it *, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and [a]behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? ☝He tells the Corinthian believers that they are carnal and could not receive solid and had to be fed milk as babes
I was raised mormon and still technically am but I want to be Catholic. I remember I once had to do a research project of the early history of the church and it’s impossible even through all the flaws of men that this isn’t the church that Christ spoke of in Matthew 5:14
Luma, think about this. Jesus started just one church, not churches. Ephesians 4 says there is one faith, one baptism one God and Father of all. Jesus in John 17 prayed we would all be one just as he and the father on one. Look up on RUclips, "The Veil Removed" to see what happens at a Mass.
@@lumanate1493 There have been six saints who saw the Mass with Angeles and Jesus on the Cross and all the saints. Padre Pio said the same. check out the short movie called The Veil Removed to see what they saw.
It's amazing to me how much someone will twist and reinterpret scripture solely on a preconceived notion. I was a protestant for 30+ yrs until the absolute incoherence of the solas and the mental gymnastics I had to perform to try and comprehend scripture became too exhausting & contradictory. Praise Jesus for giving me the grace and humility to see my false pride, ego and arrogance. I came into full communion with the body of Christ (Catholic Church) 5 years ago. Scripture absolutely leaps off the page now and I don't have to explain verses away out of context anymore. I now understand the treasure in the field. The peace & comfort of being in the bosom of the Church is indescribable.
One of the most ludicrous claims by White is his interpretation of Hebrews 10:29, that the one sanctified is Jesus as opposed to it being the apostate (see 1:26:57).
Trent Horn is a great debater, so is Dr. James White. I came out of Roman Catholicism over 20 years ago and fall on the Reformed side now, but man, these are two very sharp men.
Watched this many years ago as a Protestant, now I am watching as someone who is one week away from becoming a Catechumen. I can’t wait to be in full communion with the Catholic Church in April 2025.
@ exactly! Protestants can’t agree on basically any essential Christian doctrine (salvation, baptism, Eucharist etc.) because of the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. It’s truly a maze and vast array of confusion, chaos and disorder.
@@amnnn1991 I mean to be fair, disparity in scriptural interpretation exists between every sect of Christianity. Unfortunately Catholicism still doesn’t resolve that issue. It’s not like the RCC offers an infallible interpretation of the objective meanings of every Bible verse.
@@anne.ominous Of course it doesn’t offer an infallible interpretation of every verse. That would be overwhelming. It does, however, offer a complete understanding of all essential doctrines (Eucharist, Salvation, Baptism etc.). Nobody is expecting an interpretation of every verse.
when trent referenced the prodigal son, I shed a tear and felt His Spirit fill my heart.. very well said, and like God said He was well pleased with St thomas, I believe He is very well pleased with what trent said
I don't think calvinists really think through their doctrine. A man is standing at his judgment, and God is condemning him to hell because he did not believe in Christ. Not because he rejected God's call, but because he was *never* called! Meaning God didn't even give him the chance to believe in him, but chose him for hell from the beginning if his existence. Can anyone really believe that?
Theology Matters Oh , i must have not been watching the same debate 😜 Cuz i heard that no one could come to the Father unless he draws them, but he doesn't draw everyone. hmm
Gerard wrote: >>Oh , i must have not been watching the same debate 😜 Cuz i heard that no one could come to the Father unless he draws them, but he doesn't draw everyone. hmm
The great problem for Reformed theology is that even people who are justified and produce fruit of the Spirit (repentance, good works etc.) nevertheless sometimes commit sins, including adultery, fornication etc. - the very sins that St. Paul says will keep people from Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21). But, according to the Reformed position, if such a person is a true and justified Christian they will inherit the kingdom of God and sins listed by St. Paul in Galatins 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 cannot impact their standing before God. That contradicts what St. Paul says - he says that whoever does these things will not be saved (unless he repents of course), Reformed Protestant is forced to say that there are some people who can do these things without losing justification, which is impossible in light of Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthias 6. You commit adultery, fornication etc. - you lose justification, period.
This is not a problem for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has to be emphasized that this is not a general problem for reformed theology, as within that framework there are many interpretations of salvation. With that clarified, a person who is indwelt by the spirit is maintained such that he would not sin egregiously. And further the interpretation that people who have committed these sins will not "inherit the kingdom of God" has to be understood within Paul's ministry, rather than independent of it. Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified. Once we acknowledge his general stance on the power of the atonement and the work of the holy spirit, there are many ways to understand these verses. The person who says that the one who is genuinely saved and indwelt by the spirit can go on sinning just as the unbeliever does probably hasn't experienced the work of the holy spirit in his life. There is no other way to understand cynicism as in regards to the ability of the spirit to maintain a believer. If our becoming the children of God could just be unwritten, what kind of children are we? I don't know many children who stop becoming their parents' offspring when they disobey them. With that said, catholicism is still irredeemably damnable and glaringly heretical. That salvation can be lost does not validate the unbiblical, ungodly, man-made doctrines of Rome, which turn man into God, and Christ into an impotent mediator unable to save.
@@@RagingBlast2Fan "a person who is indwelt by the spirit is maintained such that he would not sin egregiously" That would necessarily mean that people indwelt by the spirit will not commit sins which St. Paul says will keep people away from God. Obviously, that is not true - justified Christians are not immune to commiting fornication, adultery, etc., so they can't be immune from losing salvation either. "And further the interpretation that people who have committed these sins will not "inherit the kingdom of God" has to be understood within Paul's ministry, rather than independent of it." St. Paul is very clear - "*I warn you, as I did before*, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:21). St. Paul directs this warning about not inheriting the kingdom of God as a result of sinning to everyone in the Galatian congregation, which includes those who are justified. "Once we acknowledge his general stance on the power of the atonement and the work of the holy spirit, there are many ways to understand these verses." That is a classical example of begging the question fallacy - first you assume that St. Paul took a Reformed stance on the atonement and work of the Holy Spirit, and then proceed reinterpret clear warning passages directed to justified believers about a very real possibility of losing their salvation if they return to sin and fail to repent, in order to fit them int your preconceived theological system. This is what Dr White has been doing throughout this debate - Hebrews 10:26-29, 2 Timothy 2:11-13, Romans 8:12-13, Galatians 5:19-21 and many other passages clearly warn against losing salvation, but since he is Reformed he can't have that, so he calls these passages "descriptive", even though nothing in their context indicates that. His theology forces his interpretation. "The person who says that the one who is genuinely saved and indwelt by the spirit can go on sinning just as the unbeliever does probably hasn't experienced the work of the holy spirit in his life." If somebody goes back to commiting serious sin he is no longer indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches it is a real possibility - Hebrews 10:26 says *we* (first person) can go back to sinning willingly and what terrible punishment awaits for that if we remain in that state. "If our becoming the children of God could just be unwritten, what kind of children are we? I don't know many children who stop becoming their parents' offspring when they disobey them." Father-children relationship between God and us is not the same as between biological parents and their children, so it is fallacious to use this comparison as if the two are the same. And even in the case of biological parents a parent can permanently disinherit his children for grave reasons. "and Christ into an impotent mediator unable to save." It is interesting how Protestants, who claim to believe in Scripture alone, bring up this sort of objection, which does not come from Scripture at all. They object that if people for whom Christ died are not saved, then Christ failed. But that is their human understanding of what success and failure means, which makes it a philosophical rather than a Biblical objection. God gets to define what is failure and what is not, and if He does not see people losing salvation (as He revealed in the Bible is possible) as failure, then it is not - period.
@@danielvega442 Jesus did not condemn tradition. That is a fundamentalist argument. Jesus's last supper (which is a Jewish passover) is scared tradition. How did he condemn it if he participated in scared tradition? Lastly, if Jesus spoke against tradition, please explain Matthew 5:17
@@MarkelBeverley as in washing of the hands remember the pharsiess were calling out Jesus then he told them you speak God's words with your mouth but your heart's are far from him. As in being religious. By the way Jesus never said he's Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah witnesses he never claimed the title of a church.
@@danielvega442 Well, lets be clear that unlike Mormon, Baptist, C.O.G.I.C., Pentecostal, etc, The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Followers of Christ originally known as "The Way" were first called Christians in the city of Antioch. Under St John was a disciple named Ignatius who later became "Ignatius of Antioch" when he was ordained by Paul and appointed by Peter as the Bishop of Antioch . When the time came that he was called to Rome to be martyred, in one of his letters (to Christians in Smyrna), he wrote, “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” This is the earliest known written record of the term “Catholic Church” (written around A.D. 107),The term “Catholic Church” (Gk. katholike ekklesia) broadly means “universal assembly,” and Ignatius used it in the writing as a term of unity. He exhorted these Christians to follow their bishop just as the broader universal assembly of Christians follows Christ. He clearly uses the terms “Christian” and “Catholic Church” distinctly: disciples of Christ are Christians; the *universal assembly of Christians is the Catholic Church .
hahaha, I like to call him the spin-doctor, he will talk so much, red-herring, straw-maning...you will lose track what's he talking about ! He IS the master, I will have to admit after listening to him for awhile
Once saved, always saved could include someone who signed a card or made a profession of faith in Christ while continuing in all his sins and having absolutely no change in his life. This is why James White distinguishes himself from it.
I don't think James White has any problem with the strict literal meaning of the words "Once saved, always saved", but when used as a slogan, it's associated with a particular teaching that goes beyond the literal meaning of the words.
@@leahunverferth8247 Yes I think by once saved always saved he means a person who made a profession, never has a change, doesn't want to do good works, never progresses in santification, but said a prayer or was baptized or something and is supposedyl justified from it
@1:55:03 Trent Horn loses the debate and exposes the reason why Roman Catholicism is apostate. He says not all those who are justified are glorified in Romans 8. Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30
@@gabequinn9796 Haha you gotta be kidding me. Believing in a Jesus like the JWs, Mormons and Catholics doesn't save you. Is it OK to believe that Jesus is an angel, brother of satan, or didn't die for all sin and needs his virgen mom to intercede in his place. You're nuts dude.
@@elunico13 I appreciate the ad hominem. You need to study more church history. Go into any Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Catholic church and you'll find the same answer on salvation- it can be lost. And the Bible backs my claim. Consider the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:1-23). I'll give you the part that shows how Christians can fall away: "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful." (Matthew 13:20-22 KJV) Also, Catholics formed the canon. Any argument you wanna base off Scripture, I want you to consider the fact that you're using a canon that was formed by theoretical apostates.
@@elunico13 All Christians affirm that Jesus is the One Mediator between God and man. When Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:46-47 KJV), she knew that she was saved from sin too, through the Son that she bore.
I know this post is 4 years old and I only watched a snippet of it but the haunting words of Jesus in Mathew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'..... this speaks for itself
God bless trent horn for enduring the debate.... So many souls are being saved.... And in the least are led to doubting the heresy that once saved,go party..no trembling to work your way to salvation
You don’t have to work your way to salvation what you say is foolish, We who are in christ and remain do have salvation. We are sealed untill the day of redemption. The Bible clearly states that it’s not by world that we’d are saved but by grace. So that no man can boast Ephesians 2:8-9
Thankyou Trent, you are a great inspiration to me as a Catholic....both on these issues, and on that of abortion....I very much to learn from you, God bless you and Mr White!
I am also a reformed Christian, and I love catholics (many members of my extended family are catholic). The closing statements by Dr. White really hit home with me. I know full well that if my salvation was dependent in any way on what I do, have done, or have not done, then there would be no hope for me. I am a wretched sinner who has been saved by the grace of God. The righteousness of Christ is my only righteousness. He is the perfect savior. All that the Father gives to the Son, come to Him. No one comes to Father unless the Father draws him. None of His sheep will be lost. He will raise me up on the last day.
@@dennis1662 Roman Catholicism isnt biblical christianity, but a pagan Greco Roman babylonian system. The whole mary worship thing as essentials to faith amongst other things has no biblical basis, please show me 1 biblical text of mary being venerated or prayed to/through. I dont know if the professing Catholics here would vouch for this but it's a core belief of upholding mary as co redemptrix which is u scriptural.on this factor alone to be saved and then lose it is irrelevant to a catholic and heresy why.because if you dont focus your faith in mary aswell then you cannot be saved (this is a belief held officially by the catholic church). Its a MASSIVE factor. Now, I'm not a calvinist, protestant or catholic so I have a perfect standing point here being a christian but no subscribing to the above. Yes, extreme calvinism does teach that a man is irresistibly saved even if he doesnt want to be, so the idea that you cannot lose your salvation has to follow the theology, it's truly false. On the other side Catholicism seems to be more correct in some of the discussion displayed but as stated above the core factor of Catholics is umbilical so because he presents a stronger case on some arguments here doesnt mean Catholicism is true, it isnt. Catholicism is a cross plus works base for its salvation and it isnt what jesus taught. If you check all the pointers trent discloses to indicate someone is in a 'saved' state do please notice something that's not mentioned but fundermemtal. You can be sincerely walking in christ being obedient to God even for years, yet the moment you wake up and say 'mary isnt co redeemer' then in strict Catholicism your immediately become unsaved. It really is a hooded salvation issue that 1 needs to recognise.if Christ paid for all your sin, or you atone in purgatory for your own, which gospel do you want to believe? You cannot have both..
@@LB_die_Kaapie bring them on ! the end result is they will deny clear scripture and claim scripture has no authority then turn around and use scripture as there proof and authority. Titus3:5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. Romans1:17 For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “ The righteous will live by faith.” Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Romans 4:6 And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him… Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Debate Format, hopefully helpful for viewing
--White Opening Statement, 20 Minutes (0:00)
--Horn Opening Statement, 20 Minutes (20:37)
--White Rebuttal, 15 Minutes (40:22)
--Horn Rebuttal, 15 minutes (56:19)
--White Cross-Examine 1, (1:11:27)
--Horn Cross-Examine 1, (1:22:19)
--White Cross-Examine 2, (1:32:36)
--Horn Cross-Examine 2, (1:43:23)
--White and Horn, Selected Audience Questions (1:54:06)
--White Closing, 10 Minutes (2:13:32)
--Horn Closing, 10 Minutes (2:24:13)
Thank you so much!!!
A scholar for doing this
Thank you!
1:46:40 James white blunder :)
Helps😊
I'm here seven years later. Watched as a protestant concerned about my soul and I'm back to comment as a Catholic who is grateful for the continual renewing love and grace of God!
@@lukethomas1092 Welcome home!
Even though catholics when JESUS SAID OT IS FINISHED. They don't believe. THEY ARE calling JESUS a liar.
Love to hear it. Not always easy being Catholic, but I truly believe the sacraments are pivotal to our faith.
@@stevemarks9820 I'm not a Catholic, but Jesus was stating that He had completed the will of the Father. How are they calling Him a liar?
@@asherstribe5695 Bible over men everytime.
Now I know why James White made a 59 minute "post-debate" video to teach his viewers about "Accurately evaluating debates". Great debate Trent Horn! That was for the greater glory of God!
That's what I thought...
Mak Matix, How does one become a "sore loser" by stating a fact?
Jimmy G I think Mark Matix meant that James was a "sore loser", otherwise his comment does not make sense.
Santa Escritura & Mak Matix, I apologise for my miss understanding
it was not a debate both he(James White) and Yasir Qadhi said it was not a debate, but a dialogue. Did you listen to both of their intros on both nights of their talks in the church and mosque?
"There were two crucified with Christ. One was saved , we must not despair! The other was not, we must not presume!" •Saint Augustine•
Beautiful.
"There are many rooms in my Father's house." So the thief on the cross would hardly expect the same rewards as St Paul. Matt 16:27
Gerry De naro at least the thief got to Heaven and he wasn’t late to be counted among God’s friends
@valiant crusader
So I shouldn't listen to anyone at all? Including you?
@valiant crusader
You said, "Better to listen to THE LORD JESUS" to someone quoting St Augustine in reference to a Catholic-Calvinist debate.
Watched this roughly 2 years ago as a Protestant who loved James White…. Now I’m back to watch it as a Catholic who loves Trent Horn. 😅 life is wild.
Same lol
Anyone who is Catholic how are you do blind?
How can you be a part of such as The papacy and the Vatican?!
Open your eyes seriously investigate.
Why does the Vatican display a big Egyptian obelisk? Like Washington DC and The inner city of London.
Read your Bible…wake up.
@@jimijames7703 "Read your Bible…wake up."
Open your bible to the table of contents. What authority do you defer to, to have decided that your New Testament contains 27 writings, no more, no less, out of 300+ early Christian writings?
Read your bible! Do you have a book, chapter and verse that lists these books??
@@TruthHasSpokenI'm Catholic because God and scripture lead me to the Catholic church
@@andreeattieh2963 Wonderful! Was there a doctrine or belief in particular that convinced you to convert?
I dislike Trent for this debate wgen i was a protestant.
By the grace of God, Trent and many other Catholic apologists helped guide me towards the true church that Jesus Christ set up on earth.
Cloud Strife Welcome home!
valiant crusader Are you perfect? No. You are being a hypocrite by saying that. You don’t try to convert someone by telling them they’re wrong, you find something in common. Right now whatever religion you’re in I don’t want to be in because that must mean there are people like you. I said this before, and I’ll say it again. Stop it when you aren’t perfect
@valiant crusader First of all, you're acting like an immature 8 year old. God doesn't "choose" anyone. God made ALL OF US. He loves EVERYONE. Do you sin or are you perfect? You have NO RIGHT to say those things about me. You don't know who I am, and you don't know my sins. Don't call me sinful when you yourself is sinning in your comments. Example: Me telling someone to be quiet when I'm being loud... It doesn't make sense, right? Once again, you are being a HYPOCRITE! Please stop calling your brothers and sisters sinful when you have your own soul to worry about. Being mean to people isn't going to make them say, "Wow, I think "valiant crusader" is a really great guy, I think I'm going to join his religion!" NO! They AREN'T going to say that. YOU are being RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL to others. Please stop, you are not perfect. No one is perfect except for God. I don't want to be mean, but you are being horrible to people!!!!!!!!
valiant crusader And who is He talking to?
valiant crusader Oh and also, you didn’t say which book you got this from, so I can’t look into it. Plus stop saying I’m a sinner, because you are too.
"The one who states his case first (James) seems right,
until the other (Trent) comes and examines him" Proverbs 18:17
Santa Escritura I liked how Patrick Madrid applied this verse to White on another debate.
Cherry picking verses is the catholic way.
@@ministryoftruth1451 the biblical way is the Catholic way. The Church set the canon as you know it.
@@lionofthecherubim4486might want to do some reading on this. Your information is wrong. Of course Biblical scholars recognize the canon was ratified (for lack of a better word) by the followers of Christ prior to any council. If it were not so then there was a 1500 year period without canonized scripture. Biblical references to other writings is one way the writers and apostles confirmed the canon. OT canon was determined by the prophets themselves such as Moses who put the law as scripture next to the ark of the covenant. Catholic church was a dollar short and a day late on this.
@@ministryoftruth1451 The Canon was first ratified by a council called by Pope St. Damasus I in 382. The first ecumenical council to deal with Scripture was indeed Trent, but various local councils had already been ratifying 73 books for over a thousand years beforehand.
Further, I find the accusation that Catholics "cherry-pick" verses telling. Protestants run through their handful of classic "prooftexts" against the Catholic Church, but as soon as the Catholics quote a verse that flatly refutes the Protestant view, it automatically becomes "cherry-picking," without any actual demonstration of that cherry-picking. Please, go ahead. Where is the "cherry-picking"?
I believe Mr Horn presented a better argument. I converted to Catholicism 10 years ago and this was a pivotal issue.
Brett RCG have a relook at the rebuttals on the hermeneutics esp the descriptive vis a vis prescriptive aspects of exegesis to be consistent. Mr. Horn does not have this understanding. I would recommend D.A. Carson’s “Exegetical Fallacies” for your reading before you decide who made a biblically informed presentation.
@@Tanjaicholan so D.A. Carson is the final authority on exegetical fallacies and who presents biblical arguments? That's weird.
@@Tanjaicholan But, why are we having to construct this method of reading the Bible....? That's going through hoops and doing cartwheels to understand the common sense of the Bible (with the exception of Paul's Epistles, apparently lol).
@@Tanjaicholan The Protestant Reformers are "ministers of righteousness," for they made themselves apostles who divided Christ's Body over the doctrine of righteousness, of justification, claiming to have the light, when in fact they do not. There is no greater evil than to tell people it is not necessary to obey God, take them away from the saving grace of God's Sacraments, then tell them that they are saved. In fact, these "ministers of righteousness" *told everyone they could be their own apostle, interpreting Scripture for themselves* with no regard for the teachings the Church has held since the beginning... It is one thing to read the Scriptures for ourselves. It is another thing to go running around, devising our own "truths" of doctrine from Scripture.
Zach Lee Did I say he was the final authority? You read that into my rebuttal and made a false and incoherent case for yourself.
I left the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I then went to aBaptist church. A new “reformed” preacher came in and invited James White to speak on “The Dangers of Catholicism.” Look it up, it’s on RUclips. His conference made me go back Catholic lol! Something didn’t sit right with me. His claims about the Catholic Church did not make any sense. This led me to many weeks researching the Catholic Church. I am so happy God led me back home! Thank you Trent for your videos, they played a big part in my family going back to the church.
Yay!
Guys stop following denominations. Religion says do, God says come. Why do you think their is so much division? It’s not about what you do, who you follow, how you do it and why. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. It doesn’t matter if you are a catholic or a baptist or so forth. If God is not the final authority in your life and you do not put Gods word over every decision or circumstance and you do not believe that Jesus is God, died and rose again, there is no salvation for any of us. Not all Catholics believe the same things just as not all baptist agree and believe the same things. Don’t stick with a church or denomination, stick with THE CHURCH. The big C, the big B believers. Jesus didn’t preach Catholicism or methodology or Mormonism. He came and demonstrated his love and taught us the truth and then proved it to us. The Bible is written by witnesses. You don’t stand with anyone and you don’t stand apart. We stand together regardless. The Bible tells us all we need to know, it’s the only starting point we have. That’s like saying I’m a catholic so I’m going to heaven because we have it right and so on and so forth. You being a catholic doesn’t save you, Jesus dying and your repentance and belief is what saved you. Guys don’t feel like you have to pick sides because we can do this all day. Just follow Jesus and his truth and you will be ok. It’s not about you or me, there is only one hero of the story and it’s Jesus. Your job, my job, our job, is to tell other the good news, the gospel. Not to tell them which denomination to join because Jesus didn’t point to one and he didn’t create it. He said deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. That’s what a Christian is, a follower of Christ. You are not a catholic or a baptist or whatever, that’s not your identity, your identity is in Christ and with Christ. You are not a white Christian or a black Christian. You are not a male Christian or a female Christian. You are not a wealthy Christian or a poor Christian. You are not a catholic Christian or a baptist Christian. You are a Christian because you follow Christ not because you follow religion. Why do you think there is division? Well this denomination says this and they say this and I believe this. What does the Bible say? We are a body guys of one bigger purpose. You are just a part of one big body as am I. I need a foot, an arm, someone else is the hands another is the eyes. We all have a part to play and regardless where to stand, God will accomplish his will with or without you and regardless of your denomination. If you are wrong, you can still be saved. If you are right, you can still be saved. We all need forgiveness, we all need his saving grace. Come together and build his kingdom, stop trying to build your own. We need to bring others together and it’s ok to have differences, just don’t deny the power of God and who he is. There is only one Christ and we are all trying to point to him. Do what Gods word says and you know you are doing what’s right. I was saved before I found a church. I found God without a church because he came to me as I read his word. It don’t take a specific view, I just chose to believe and I surrendered to him, I was ready and I knew I needed forgiveness for what I have done and he came to me. Put your faith in God, not in man or yourselves. We follow Jesus and his teachings, not religion because religion says different things. It’s not about what you do because works and opinions don’t save you, faith alone does because Jesus paid our debt. That’s ok to have your views, but don’t teach others your views teach them Gods word because we all have an opinion, God states facts. Let’s come together and focus on what we can agree on and settle on our differences and look out for one another. Get back to me and let me know what you think, thank you very much for your time
@@sethl7858 Non-denominationalism is still Protestantism
@@jlouis4407 I got you and I should have been more clear on that. The point I was trying to make is that it’s not so much as finding a group to stand with as much as it is knowing the truth. I listen to James white and some other guys and it was my first time listening to Trent Horn and I think he did have a much better explanation. But just because we share the same views doesn’t mean I have to be a catholic. Maybe James white was the wrong guy to represent the other side for this debate. You don’t have to be something or stand in a certain area because of similar beliefs. As I stated we have the same views but maybe our beliefs differ in areas. I don’t want someone to think they have to pick a side to believe a certain way. I’m with Horn and I think James agrees to a degree but that doesn’t make me a catholic nor does it mean I share a catholic view, I just agree in this area. I’m not saying denominations are not important but really they aren’t. It gives a title and that title is known for overall beliefs, I don’t think it clearly defines me or others. I’ve been asked if I was a lot of things and I just said I believe the Bible for what it says, it didn’t take a label nor did I feel the need to add one. You can be something or believe something without a label or even knowing what it would be called. It’s not important to define ourselves by our denomination but by who we are In Christ if any of this makes any sense. I saw where they felt the need to jump back and forth and it seems important to say someone has it wrong or maybe not completely put together and to say that a representative gave a better explanation so you are now this or this isn’t accurate, it doesn’t make sense. What if Horn debated someone else and that person didn’t agree, would they change denominations again? If hitler was to preach the gospel I would say yes I agree but I wouldn’t say I’m a nazi now. If he said we need to kill the Jews and do this and that, I would say we agree in the one particular area about God but I’m not killing anyone because I disagree with your belief here. I don’t have to become a nazi because we have a similar belief because I might not agree in all areas. Horn could be right in this one area and later he believes some similar beliefs of Mormonism or something. If I have all these mixed beliefs what am I then? I don’t want people to think they have to stand in a certain group to believe something, sometimes we can just say I believe that and some other things because the Bible shows what seems to be clear evidence and until I’m shown otherwise and convinced, my belief won’t change but that doesn’t mean I now have to change denominations.
God have blessed you trully, welcome back to the one holy and apostolic Catholic Church!
I'm a Muslim, but I watched this to better understand my 'cousins in faith'. It was very informative. I felt the Catholic gentleman was a better speaker and explained his faith much better than White. White was okay, but I felt he felt flat against a more knowledgeable debater.
Thank you, uploader, for sharing this. I wish you all peace.
I pray you accept jesus as the true messiah into your heart.
Thank you for your openness. May the one true God bring us all to Himself.
True
God bless you, Sonny! :)
Thank you Sonny, May God bless you and keep you.
I am a Protestant on the road to becoming Catholic, and this debate was an important piece to my journey. The thing that stood out most to me was how James White had to do cartwheels to explain Biblical passages, and Trent Horn simply read passages and let them speak for themselves...
Sharon Plascencia yes. Agreed.
Thank you, I noticed that as well. It was painfully awkward.
but again, the point James was making is that Trent's interpretations can't be right if they contradict the rest of the bible... This was stated numerous times. How do you miss it?
John 6:37-44 proves that those "given to Jesus by the Father" ie the "elect" cannot be lost. Fine, as a Catholic, I can completely affirm that. The problem is that advocates of the eternal security doctrine assume without any proof that they are indeed members of the elect when they have no way of knowing that. Furthermore, the elect are not the only ones who receive grace. As the parable of the sower talked about, there are those who "believe for a while...then fall away." They are not of the elect who were predestined to heaven but they did receive at least some grace (as evidenced by the seed going out to them) but after they accepted it, they fell away. And Galatians 5:4 just does not make any sense if it's impossible to be severed from Christ and fall away from grace. White's interpretation of Hebrews 10:29 is simply abysmal.
MatthewP - excellent analysis.
Sadly, the first sin is PRIDE. People are so fixated on proving they're right they forget that the important thing is the LEARN from the debate and, in this case, grow closer to Christ (and to cease offending Him and God).
Again, excellent work, I pray you keep defending the faith with patience and courage. God bless.
The arguments made by Trent Horn truly do make the most sense, that is why I am Catholic. The theology of Catholicism is not only ancient and comes from the time of Jesus Christ (as opposed to Dr. White's theology which is less than five hundred years old), but the theology of Catholicism makes the most sense as well. We are all made by God and have the choice here on earth to follow and obey God... or to disobey God, to sin gravely and go to hell. When we sin gravely, God will forgive us if we truly repent of our sin(s) and strive to live in holiness. If we do not repent and die in an unrepentant state, then we will go to Hell. God does not choose who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, rather, He KNOWS who is going to Heaven or Hell based on how they respond to His grace. It is WE who make the decision to come to Jesus and stay with Him, or to walk away and continue in sin. We only have such a decision because Jesus Christ died for our sins. If it wasn't for Jesus' death on the cross, none of us would be worth of God's kingdom. We are all unworthy of Heaven because of sin, but Jesus Christ gives us the opportunity to live in righteousness, to do God's will and hold on to the salvation which was given to us by Christ in baptism. But we are human and we make mistakes, so if we sin gravely, for example, by committing murder, then we are not worthy of Heaven unless we repent. According to Dr. White, someone who commits several cold-blooded murders after having been saved is either A) Never a true Christian to begin with or B) Is a true Christian who will later repent of their sin and thus have been saved all along. But you see, this is really barely different from Catholic theology (which is more accurate and more in line with Scripture). In Catholic theology, God knows if you are going to Heaven or Hell, but He does not choose whether or not you go to Heaven or Hell. We are the ones who choose to listen to God who is our Shepherd and follow Him, or to go astray. When we go astray by committing sins (especially mortal sins), Jesus gladly takes us back if we repent. If we do not repent though, then we will be lost and at the end of our lives go to Hell. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.
Stevin, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
@valiant crusader Wow! That's not a very Christian response!
It doesn't matter what your denomination. "You must be born again".
@valiant crusader a house divided against itself cannot stand. Are you really of Christ if you're going to attack people who have a different understanding to salvation than you? Also you don't know Roman Catholicism at all. If you did you wouldn't call it pagan.
@valiant crusader you apparently
I was a Jehovas Withness but my wife brought me to Catholicism 🙏🏽 📿
Hi! May I ask what was it that brought you to Catholicism? I find jehovah’s witnesses to be the most stubborn and hardest to reach in the fact that they don’t even believe Christ to be God and it’s a high control group that doesn’t allow questioning. What made you question?
Vman, what is that you saw as true in Catholicism that you did not see as a Witness?
@@TruthHasSpoken well I realized that a lot of what JW (my family included) would quote to refute or assert their beliefs were mainly taken out of context.
Also the fact that JW are taught to distrust the world and anyone who becomes ex fellowships ur suppose to shun them. So friends u had who no longer are JW are completely ignored by everyone who they use to call friends.
And another reason is I really like the traditions of the Catholic Church, and after attending the Latin Mass i saw that the focus was put on god and not some preacher on a stage.
I use to be combative and say “what authority does this guy have to teach us?!” And then I learned about apostolic succession and the authority given to the priest from Jesus and the apostles then it started to make more sense to me.
@@vman9347 Vman, all praise to the Holy Spirit for stirring your heart. Many never find their way out of Watchtower. It's a blessing that you have and it the Church!
You left one cult for another.
May God bless Dr. White. He carries the cross of Protestantism to help show how great Catholicism is.
@valiant crusader Be silent demon.. ..by your fruit (at least by the very little or no knowledge you've displayed so far for all to see) you are known.
Ill gladly accept your false retort gracefully.
@valiant crusader There's a good path out of your dilemma. Remember, Satan can appear as an angel of light and wreak havoc on your mind. His lies are painfully cunning and I'm no stranger to being duped by them. May God give you what you need to overcome your difficulties and receive the light of Christ's love for you. Be at peace friend. There's much beauty around you. Consider the beauty of the stars, the oceans, and all of God's good creation. Also, there's an encyclical by Pope John Paul II called, "Fides et ratio." Look it up if you get a chance. It contains this opening line, which as you will be able to tell, is in keeping with the goodness of the creation:
"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves." God bless you.
@valiant crusader Is this the type of thinking that following James White produces? You might want to pick another theology. I mean, consider what you're saying with the fact that Jesus instructs us to love our enemies. Doesn't it sound to your introspective self like you are condemning everyone? In any case, have a good one man.
@valiant crusader I didn't say I was insulted. I said you have placed yourself in role of God administering judgements out as if you were. You wouldn't make a fair judge at a traffic violation hearing, how do you think you are fairing as the judge of the world? Peace.
@valiant crusader I'll get back with you later. This whole section is an improvement for you. At least you are trying to make a case for yourself beyond simply derogatory terms. The question is, have you understood what is being said in the Bible verses you have quoted as it petains to the way you have decided to carry it out? I don't think so. But again, at least you have expounded a bit. Ttyl.
proud catholic from Philippines and i will defend my Catholic faith.
God bless brothers and sisters.
Please join us in Catholic Faith Defender
@valiant crusader May all confusion be dispelled from your heart and the minds of all people and may the Light of Truth shine in them, find out which church Jesus established, which church compiled the bible, and which church was Jesus was talking about when He said in 'Matthew 28:20"Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
haha robot jesus for sale. catholic bili kana ha? black Nazareth is demonic! itim na christo galing africa hehehehe.
Amen!
Why Jesus did not mention purgatory and limbo? Why Jesus did not promote making stone and worship it? Buddhist worship stone version of Buddha. Catholic worship stone fake version of wooden Jesus Christ version. 12 disciples never worship Mary but the Catholic worship Mary as queen of heaven. The gospel of Catholicism is fake. There is no historical evidence that Jesus came and stablish pagan Catholicism.
Why is it so difficult to understand that if a person refuses Christ, s/he cannot be saved?
The answer lies in what the act "refusing" or "accepting" Christ actually means. It is actually a lot more complex than a simple profession. However, in the end, we could not know if we could be saved, since we are all unworthy. On one end, the Scripture tells us that faith alone can justify us. On the other hand, it tells us that faith should not be passive and be manifested in good works centered in Christ's commandment of love. In any the case, our limited mind can only know that much, and only through God's grace can we be saved. Only He can decide on that, we only follow what was taught.
Calvinists believe human beings *have--no--free--will,* and therefore are *not capable* of refusing *or* accepting Christ. Since this position is not supported in a single verse of scripture, they have to resort to extra-biblical measures to confuse you, or in James White's case, mock and ridicule you into silence.
Yes, but that is refusing Jesus. They were never saved. The point is, you can't lose your salvation (after you are saved), because the God will not allow this to happen.
SanSebastian Show me one scripture verse that teaches this.
@@davidfigueroa8188 What about the Holy Spirit? When one is saved, is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit. He will never let us fall away from faith. Sin wilfully or reject Jesus. I can't believe the person filled with The Holy Ghost could turn his back away from Jesus. That is one of the most important task of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in believers and fills them. “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16,).The Holy Spirit is a source of revelation, wisdom, and power. (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to believers. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is a seal in the lives of believers. (Ephesians 1:13).
It's unfortunate that Dr White resorted to attacking Catholic doctrine that were not necessarily relevant to this debate. These jabs were, for the most part, ad hominem attacks at Mr Horn trying to discredit him before their mostly Protestant audience.
It’s totally necessary to attack Catholic doctrine because it’s the devil, Paul did the same thing he attacked false doctrine
@@carolwilliams383 boo I’m a Protestant, James white isn’t a good debater
@@adamduarte895 He is better than most
It's nothing more than a fit of chicanery to advance his heretical views.
Cry about it!
According to Dr. James R. White, I am condemned.
According to Trent Horn, I have hope
Hallelujah
According to the Bible, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. John 3:18 says those who don't believe are condemned already. Dr. White gives you the proper diagnosis of your condition, Trent Horn tells you, you only have a cold that can go away in a few days. I'd rather get the real diagnosis.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Or perhaps the "real diagnosis" as you put it, is actually more favorable than you think.
@@hilairebelloc3368 I don't see how condemnation is favorable. Better tell someone the truth than lie to them by encouraging false hope and false piety.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 I did not say that "condemnation," in the bleak and Calvinistic sense of the term, was the real diagnosis. The real diagnosis is that the image of God remains, albeit tarnished almost beyond recognition, and that grace is well within the grasp of the will, if only it would turn to grasp it.
So glad this is up for all to see! Trent Horn made it so easy to see that James White was preaching a false gospel. Thanks for uploading this Catholic Answers! We love your work of spreading God's Word!
GGodHand I'll take your advice! What a great debate am I right? :D
How To Be Christian I am now your 200th subscriber good sir! Thanks for all the informative videos you post! :)
Thank you GGodHand! Catholic Answers played a huge part in helping me to realize that the Catholic Christian Church is the One Church that Christ created, and I'm glad to be a part of a community that helps Christians find Christ's Church.
We love seeing your comments! Thank you.
Hi Soldier of Christ 111,
Thank you! That is very much appreciated! We loved seeing the great work that Catholic Answers was doing for Christ's Church, so we decided to try to do our part as well. Thanks for being the 200th!
How To Be Christian Not so... The Catholic Church is in many ways demonic, in its institution of false and man made mandates that enslave and subjugate its followers to remain in their vicious cycle.
Just want to say that I am a reformed christian and that I love catholics.
Blake Jones we love you too!
Thanks, matthew! That is awesome!
Blake Jones no problem. I'm actually of fan of Dr. White. His work helped me talk to muslims I work with.
I appreciate the love! And yes, I love his work and how we respects those he debates. That is awesome! I really like Trent too. This is my first time encountering him, but I love his mind and demeanor. i would love to see another debate between them soon!
he
I was raised baptist my whole life and am now converting to Catholicism
I gotta say, the Catholic really went to work.
Swept the floor.
Does the possibility exist for former Christians to lose salvation (supposing a protestant framework of understanding salvation itself)?
Yes or No?
If No, then how do you know with absolute certainty that they were never saved in the first place?
If you claim that Scripture tells you so, my question for you is, is your interpretation of scripture fallible or infallible. If you assert “fallible,” then that means that your private interpretation is subject to error, which also means that you can’t be absolutely certain that ALL former Christians were never saved.
Now suppose someone claimed that they were morally certain that ALL former Christians were never saved. My question for you is, does the possibility exist for SOME former Christians to have BEEN SAVED? If you responded “no”, then you’re claiming absolute certainty. However, Protestants can’t have this level of certainty regarding their private interpretation of scriptures.
Hence, the possibility exists for SOME former Christians to have been saved, but lost their salvation due to apostasy. Hence the Reformed doctrine of Eternal Security is false.
Really? Did you listen to the debate? Have you read your Bible?
@@ministryoftruth1451 We might ask the same thing of you.
@@Volmire1 there's no defense for the catholic view in the Bible. Idols, praying to "saints", etc. In fact it says the opposite. Study.
I am born and raise as a Catholic, nd I thankful for this post.
“If salvation can’t be lost these warnings are nonsensical”
Trent Horn
Yes , trent nailed it
That´s no argument. You have to see that there are 2 Typs of Faith (Clearly shown in the Bible) 1: Saving Faith (True believer/Reborn) 2: False Faith (No true Conversion/Not Reborn) There is not one Clear Passage where it is mentioned that a Born again Beliver can lose his Salvation. For eternal Salvation there are as you heard in the Debate clear verses which are clear for reborn beliver.
It was interessant to hear the point of Horn that "God gives the Grace
of perseverance to thouse which love to the end"(more grace to some then to other, because they worked more? Thats not what the bible teaches) but don´t seeing that they would not need this grace because God knows that they will love until the end, so why giving the grace. They would and have mantained their own Salvation, but to dont say that, you are saying "no God gives the Grace to those" so that you can say the glory is of God because he gives the Grace of perseverance. Thats not honest .
It is grace to say God gives the grace of perservance to thouse which "Humble themselfs and Recognize that they cant earn they own salvation and put their trust in Jesus Christ, thats the one that is reborn of the Holy Spirit by the word and have decided to follow jesus christ after being convicted by the Holy Spirit and died for themselfs and got new life by the SPirit of God" (You can not be UNreborn; like now you cant say i dont want to be Unborn and dont exist/You have no power over that and this is predestined in the way of no one asked you if you want to exist our not, God decided to/.
So you are saying i could not save my self, but now i can keep my salvation by myself and even more, i have to earn my salvation and mantain my salvation by works?
The big problem of the people are the tradition. As Jesus already said to the Pharisee and
Sadducees. And you really think that Jesus will add something to himself? Thats very blinded.
Psalm 119:9 John 1:1;14/ John 14:26/ John 15:26/ John 16:13/ 1.Joh 2:27
Repent and belive in the Gospel
You only need the bible and the holy spirit and he will Guide you in all truth.
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco My third response because I did not address your tradition comment. Their is no problem with Tradition from God but Tradition of Men is what the problem is.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Also Jesus recognizes The Pharisees Influence 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
Jeremiah 23:4 I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, says the Lord.
Multiple Shepherds (plural)
Mark 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will all become deserters; for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.
Jesus is the first shepherd Then makes Peter a Shepherd John 21:15-1715 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
A person who feeds lambs, tends sheep, and feeds sheep is only a shepherd.
Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it. I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN. Peter got the authority to bind and to loose (Traditions are biblical)
That’s not the way it works.
It appears as though you can lose it because we humans cannot determine who is in fact real Christians. Even the biggest Christian apologists have become non Christian. It’s unpredictable. The warnings are from a human perspective.
Additionally, a backslider and a non believer can look similar yet one is saved and the other is not. Again we humans cannot determine it so to us, it is 50/50 and hence the warnings are there and also to support the backsliders.
So this argument doesn’t make any sense.
I wish he would have asked White directly about this. OK, you could say that Jesus might provide "guidance" to the saved as to how they should live, etc. by why warnings? A warning sayings "be careful of X or otherwise Y will result." But according to White "Y" (loss of salvation) can *never* result, so why warn?
Mr. Horn. I really appreciate what you did here. Good Job. I'm a protestant (I,m not on any journey to turn catholic or anything, by the way) but in this debate I learned so much how to confront calvinism. Thank you. God bless you.
Same ! I am a Protestant and Trent did a great exposure of the Calvinist flaws !
I’m a former anti Catholic Protestant that was very slowly converted to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ. My guardian Angel started my journey in a very startling way that got me shaking from terror because he asked me if what I believe really is the truth. I’d never questioned it before. So, I asked God to guide me to his truth and send someone to teach it to me. And he did.
@@Aryalanae … that was the devil …
@@lauromartinez8948
Humble yourself and repent
Biblical Christianity is hard to confront, I hope you succeed.
Thanks Trent your one my top ten Catholic Convert Apologists Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Steve Ray and many more. I love my Catholic faith I was lost and you let me back. God bless everyone who seeks the truth.
@@joemen3332 catholicism is a false corrupt doctrine
@@backtonature3464 That's not called an evidenced statement. You know what really is a "false corrupt doctrine"? Protestantism.
@valiant crusader Then I do not know which "Christ" you serve. I serve the King.
And Gary Michuta. The Catholic faith is wonderful and I’m glad you feel the same way I do :)
@@backtonature3464 Prove it.
Trent Horn converted to Catholicism because:
It made the most biblical sense.
It is the only faith that brought him to a practice of christianity that mostly resembles that of the members of the early church.
His explanation, not mine.
Such a odd take on this part
@@argollothe catholic church is the mother of the Bible as well!!!
@@davido3026 LOL hilarious.
What about Orthodox church?
You mean he became religious like a Pharisee? Jesus's harshest words and condemnation was towards the Pharisees! You are deceived! The catholic church is apostate and teaches heresy!
In light of Biblical evidence presented by Trent Horn, Calvinism cannot stand as truth. Great job Brother Horn
We cannot say Calvinism is Biblical based on a few isolated texts which are more often than not, quoted out of context. Please listen to the debate prayerfully then respond. God bless
Roman Catholicism is not biblical lol 😂
Trent: “ Because my opponent’s theology has to be true first, the bible has to fit it. Our theology should come from the bible not the bible from our theology”
Great Job! Trent. Dang!!!!
Ultimately Trent won. Because accurate and Orthodox soteriology should presuppose scriptural balance. And Orthodox and Catholic make the best efforts for balance between the Scriptures and Epistles, But Calvinists will always pit Paul against Moses and go through mental gymnastics to cling to their self evidently heretical belief.
It’s an amazing statement coming from a Catholic. Honestly, what a lack of self awareness.
This was a major issue for myself and my wife. It was absolutely astonishing to read the Church Fathers and realize, after being raised in evangelicalism my entire life, the errors of protestantism. We were stunned, and coming to the knowledge of the ancient Faith, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, we have been greatly blessed.
The church fathers are an interesting topic, however their written words are not God-breathed.
The Spirit says that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we have hope.
The Spirit also says that men receive the Word and then it is choked out.
@@ericdelanoy9570 The question that I have for you then is do you have an infallible interpretation of scripture? Or, if you prefer, do you have an infallible systematic theology through which you interpret them?
Gabe no, neither. I have what God has graciously given. The question you ask I have heard before from Catholics and Orthodox, I’m just not sure I see it’s place. Are you suggesting that Church tradition/fathers are infallible? Or the pope? Is it something you have that Protestants (I don’t really call myself that) don’t? Do I need infallible interpretation to be right about the meaning of a text? Doesn’t the Scripture say to “study” and “let each one be convinced in his own mind”, implying by the Reading of the Word and the Holy Spirit helping? Lots of questions, hope they are a coherent response to your question.
@@ericdelanoy9570 You don't see it's place because you don't see the lenses that you're looking at the world, and especially, scripture through. Whatever you've been given, the Scriptures (and I assume you are missing the deutero-cannon), you have because of a faithful transmission of them, from one apostle to the next, as well as a liturgy and interpretation transmitted by what we call Tradition as well.
Gabe that doesn’t answer any of the questions I asked. I, of course, could say the same thing to you. Rather than that if we ask some good questions we might get somewhere near the bottom of this. Also, the Christian has been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness. And, I’m not sure if your saying this or not, but if your arguing that without the apocryphal books that I don’t have the Scripture (let’s assume it is inspired Scripture), I would say the writers of the NT would disagree. Early Christians didn’t have their own Bibles, and their assemblies would typically only have parts but the Scripture with Christ dwelling in them they have everything (again) necessary for life and godliness (words written before the canon was complete).
The problem is with the word "saved." All are redeemed. Not all are saved. We have free will, and we constantly have to fight the "flesh."
@ktownbball ktownbball Christ said we will be judged by our work not by our faith so you Protestant heretics must’ve twisted saint Paul’s epistle or misunderstood like you do the bible only the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret the bible
@ktownbball ktownbball is anyone making the argument that the OT laws saves us like Romans 3:28 refers to?
@@tonysaad3072 Wow such Christ Like love your showing him.
So what is the definition of “redeemed” and “saved” ?
Ephesians 6 verse 12 comes to mind. It is most important to remember that it is the forces of darkness that tempt us every day of our time here on earth. Tempting our own flesh and heart, as they tempt ALL others by way of the flesh and the heart. We must remember the commandment of our father to pray (without ceasing) in the son’s holy name ✝️
We bring our thoughts into the captivity and obedience of Christ, and rebuke all temptation in his holy name so help us God
Amen 🙏🏼
James White lost me when he brought up other Roman Catholic Doctrines. The Debate was about Eternal Security, not the Roman Catholic Church.
And, what was Trent Horn doing? Triggering White by calling out Calvinism, and attacking his theology. James White shut his mouth at, 2:13:00. A lesson for Horn - Don't mess with White!
@@danwilliams349 uuh, no.
@@danwilliams349 uhhh the debate was about some of the core doctrines of Calvinism (ever hear of Tulip?) The doctrines that white brought up were not a part of the debate.
@@gustavusadolphus4344 They are relevant. He is rejecting those ideas which gives more insight to his stance.
@@danwilliams349 bro that is the core doctrine of Calvinism
Dr. White said at 0:20 that "what we're doing here has more eternal impact", but if God has already predestined everything, then that doesn't make sense.
this is why a lot of their theology cannot support itself.
a lot of converted catholics from protestantism was told by other protestant that they will remain sinful, but when they were protestant they already accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, so they cannot tell ex protestant that they remain sinful, because they believe once saved always saved.
Never thought Bryan Cranston and Shia LeBouf would debate
LOL
Just say "I don't understand Calvinism".
"if God has already predestined everything, then that doesn't make sense."
Sigh. Only lightweights in theology say such things.
Wow! Trent Horn you truly had the upper hand in this and clearly "won" the debate. Especially towards the questions part, he didn't have a direct answer to your questions, kept going around in circles and talking about unnecessary things. It's so hard to listen to him, but with your presentation on the subject, Mr. Horn, I truly feel blessed and I've learned a lot! Thank you.
Faye Cooks I sense you didn't understand what the main issues of the debate were ie. monergism and synergism.
Faye Cooks great observation!
Chama cooks are you on drugs or are you Catholic? Or both?
i’m an ex protestant who is now a revert catholic. i was incredibly anti-catholic before and now i’ve fully come back to my catholic roots. i have read several
books on catholicism and i love trent horn’s “Why We’re Catholic” and am soon to read his “The Case for Catholicism”. trent is the man, such a humble genius
I admire Trent Horn because he is able to share information without anger.
No disrespect but anyone who has a bit of self control can deliver information without anger. The matter here is whether it's true or false.
Absolutely! Clearing the lies or misconceptions about our faith is no easy task. The Lord is with Trent.
@@angelicalee6 That is your own perception in this but really, or you trust in Jesus sacrifice or trust in your own works, through Mary, through purgatory, though money paid in Mass. At the end, you catholics believe you can Not loose your salvation. Did you see it? This is why God is Not God of confusion. Your god is...
@@1.3m.7 You are outside looking in, ignorant of our faith and theology. Having your own perceptions.
@@angelicalee6 l was part of catholic system for many years… until l started reading the Bible. Truth set me free. Purgatory is not in the Bible. The miraculous appearance of Mary who asked that a temple be built to venerate her is foreign to the writings of the apostles. Peter's letter does not talk about her. He only talks about being a servant of Jesus Christ. and you say that Peter is the first pope... all popes are devoted followers of Mary and Peter in his two letters, he never mentioned her. I speak according to the revelation of Christ and the foundation of the apostles. I don't know about you, but if you claim to be from God, you would have to renounce all doctrine of men. In the end you proclaim another way, another message of salvation, another Christ, another means of salvation. If they bring out Mary as a co-intercessor, they lose their business like Diana's followers in the book of acts.
Me before the debate: no
Me after the debate: yes
James White was more on theoretical, less on biblical, which was in contrast with Mr. Trent's...
No bias, I am a Catholic but I am very satisfied with Mr. Trent's explanation...
Proud being Catholic.
Can you please show me exact verses? Please explain as well?
System Guy plenty of specific verses were give in the debate, they were heavily dismissed by Mr White.
Or were you inquiring on something more specific, verses that speak to something in particular?
No actual Christians can lose their faith...makes sense.
Of course you can. Once-saved-always-saved is an un-biblical, non-sensical fantasy. Making "sovereignty" mean a denial of free will and the need for cooperation is a way to have something we aren't supposed to have: the final judgement now.
Thank you Trent Horn! Fantastic job. It took me 8 years of studying to realize I was baptized in the true Church of Christ. I've been on both sides of the Christian world, I can't be on the protestant side anymore. I love my devoted protestant brothers and sisters, but I can't be one. The idea that once saved always saved makes no sense whatsoever. We all know people who do whatever they want, behave in horrific ways in this world, and yet argue they are saved forever and ever. It just sounds so easy peasy in so many denominations. It's not easy to be a devout Catholic, but Jesus didn't promise "easy." I can't live without without the Holy Scriptures, without the authority of the Church, nor without our sacred Tradition, just can't.
Thank you Catholic Answers for posting!
The Orthodox Church is the one true Church. The Patriarch of Rome split from the other four Patriarchs in the 11th century, creating Roman Catholicism.
@@davidfigueroa8188 actually you might want to do some proper research.
Before the schism Catholics and Orthdoxy weee supersets but still friendly and they still ‘recognised’ the Seat of Peter in Rome.
However it wasn’t until the Muslims that started entering the east of Europe and they inevitably forced the orthodox to walk away from Catholicism
@@davidfigueroa8188 The Orthodox Church BROKE AWAY from the Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054 AD.
Neither debater here was defending a "Once Saved, Always Saved" idea. White's opening statement said as such outright.
@@davidfigueroa8188 I think that is backwards
Trent Horn was amazing here, for a younger apologist. Just Imagine if he had the age and experience of White. It would have been a no contest. Trent has a bright future ahead of him that's for sure. Thanks for the upload Catholic Answers!
Ivan, there was a no contest. It's just that some people get it and other people don't. Yet.
There was no contest because Trent believed in the truth, and White didn't have that advantage.
@valiant crusader is the valiant crusader betraying his church with a meaningless insult?
@valiant crusader Christ's Church and the claim that Trent Horn is void of truth.
@valiant crusader that makes your ideas sound very powerful, a shame the church fathers disagree.
What a fruitful and respectful discussion. Debates have their time and place in the church, and I’m thankful for these scholars taking the time to dig for the truth.
Trent wins ! Coming from a Protestant who’s inquiring Orthodoxy
@Matt Blaise really? I never thought of that. I would like to chat to you more about that.
Orthodoxy is the Gospel. Read Paul’s writings were saved by Grace, not by works.
Read ALL of the early church fathers writings. They themselves argued if there was a Chair. Augustine of Hippo stated Christ is the rock not Peter.
True, one is saved by the grace of GOD and not by works as said by Paul - but if you'll read the synoptic gospels, you'll find that Christ said, "Love GOD with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, *and* love your neighbor as yourself." So how can one can be bestowed or granted the said *grace of salvation* ? It is by truly obeying GOD - that is, by doing *works of love* . Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan - where Christ explicitly commanded the learned person who asked Him how he could inherit eternal life or salvation: "Then *go and do* the same."
Peace and GOD bless...
I was there, such an awesome experience to meet Mr. Horn
A person that believes in Jesus Christ is Saved Jesus said He who believes in me Has eternal life , then if that person sins or lives the faith his eternal life was not eternal but temporal , please read 1a cor 5: 1-5 this man was in adultery with his fathers wife and Paul say at the end will be saved.
As a protestant i can say that Trent schooled James White.
Also i as a protestant can say i believe in Communion of the saints, baptismal regenaration, the holy eucharist and maybe even the virginity of Mary.
I was anti Catholic but now i see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ even though i dont agree with everything.
God bless
Brother how are you protestant when you accept the dogma of the Catholic church?
@@aaronquinn6626 I am a biblicist. I accept what the Bible teaches. I also affirm the trinity, does this mean I am a Roman Catholic or a Christian. I affirm many things that Protestants would condemn me for but I don’t care. I accept Catholics, orthodoxs as fellow Christians
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 I didnt say you aren't Christian, you claimed you are protestant and then said you follow some Dogmas. These concepts are at odds, you cannot be both.
@@aaronquinn6626 well I am a Christian biblicist who is always protesting. I don’t have to classify myself as something. Some would say I am a Protestant others would say I am a heretic and others say I am embracing this or that. I read the Bible and follow what it says. Traditions can be true if they match scripture
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 Fine you just agreed with me. I didn't say you have to call yourself anything but you surely are not a Protestant by holding dogmatic beliefs.
I am so amazed how humble Trent during this debate. He definitely radiate God's love throughout. Thank you Trent and God bless! 🕊️
Yes! Well said!
@1:55:03 Trent Horn loses the debate and exposes the reason why Roman Catholicism is apostate.
He says not all those who are justified are glorified in Romans 8.
Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30
@@elunico13 Yes, but how do you know YOU are one whom God predestined? You don't KNOW, ergo you do not have eternally security.
@@theamerican4609 Yes I do know, Satan. Romans 8:30 is one of many scriptures that tell me I am. Since I've been justified before God by believing the gospel, I know I'm predestined by God. Catholics can't know because they are never justified ever, in this life or after death. Read the 6th session of the council of Trent Canon 24.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:30 NIV
@@elunico13 You didn't answer my question but instead just repeated scripture. How do you know you are predestined? Many have believed in the gospel as fervently as you and have 'fallen away", therefore you don't KNOW, you just believe it to be true as you should, but you may also fall away as others have because you can't know, you cannot foresee the future. Why would one have to "hope" and to "win the race" or claim to have "fought the good fight" if once you believe you can't fall away? Clearly, you fight for something you can lose; if you don't win, you lose; and if you hope, then it is because it is not a certainty.
Mr. Trent has been quite good beyond my initial expectation of the debate turnout.
I'm a protestant Christian and I feel like Trent is more of a brother in the Lord then Dr White, by how Trent handled the Scripture. Twist not Scripture lest ye be like the devil.
kevlar kevin horn is a bit more humble
kevlar kevin
Can't wait until you come home to the Church :)
Keviar, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
Don't leave your protestant faith because you do not understand everything as a protestant, Catholicism is anathema and you will see this when the return of our Lord and Saviour, just because you watched this from a Catholic uploader and obviously all the Catholic and Muslim commenting will be one-sided, if you are a true evangelical protestant Christian then watch on an unbiased upload. Don't fall away brother, in fact you can't fall away if you are in the Lord's elect, it is impossible. Catholic and Muslims know not Christ and Christ will profess in that day that He never knew them, I promise you that with my life
@@The1SilverShadow If I recall correctly, James White's ministry has the same video uploaded in their RUclips Channel, as well as other debates, but somehow their comments section are disabled? Maybe that's why he went here.
Brother Trent you are amazing.
Thank you brother in Christ.
And a huge thank you to Catholic Answers for putting this important and informative video up.
1:42:39 - Faith as a gift
1:43:25 , 1:46:33 , 1:47:50 , 1:48:45 - Galatians 5 and falling from grace
Usually White is really good But on this topic of debate Trent got this. He’s right whether Catholic or not
To each his own I guess
I disagree. Trent essentially confirmed JW point in the cross examination and conceded the debate.
Unfortunately i agree with you because i consider tge catholic church as apostate
@@mole215 I'll show you :) Trent conceded the argument during his presentation but it specifically stood out in the cross examination. I will do my best the explain what I mean thoroughly so bear with me please. The topic of the debate is "Can a Christian lose their salvation?" In other words, are their Christians who will receive something from God that will guarantee their perseverance in the faith all the way till the end? Guaranteed? Meaning they cannot lose it? We begin at 1:11:28. James white begins his cross examination asking about the gifts of grace to the elect regarding salvation. Trent categorizes the groups in which God supposedly gives grace to. He essentially states that there is a group that is given grace yet this grace they receive is not that which secures unto final salvation (1:13:00) James white asks, "He elects them to be temporary believers?" Trent "yes....they are people who had grace but fell from it" James white (reiterating the question) "So there are elect people not elected to salvation." Trent "yes..." Then there is another category of people who receive grace, but this time these elect receive the grace of perseverance unto final salvation which GUARANTEES eternal security, a quality of grace which the first group did NOT receive. 1:14:46 James white here ask that question of this second group. Will their gift of grace guarantee them their salvation? Trent says "yes." Which is why James White rightly so follows up with the question, "isn't that what I believe?" Trent is saying that in this category of believers, God gives something to them that He does not give to everyone else. That is the gift of perseverance unto final salvation. Meaning these Christians cannot lose their salvation because God has given them a grace that will guarantee the outcome of salvation. By affirming this statement, you have answered the question. These Christians who are given the gift of perseverance unto final salvation cannot lose their salvation therefore answering the question in this debate. I hope that was helpful and clear. Great debate!
@@danielsingh9701 that doesn't concede the debate. The questions was, can A christian lose their salvation, as in, can any individual saved person be unsaved. Trent simply conceded that some cannot. But this does not concede that no individual christian can.
Bravo Trent Horn! Absolutely magnificence display of knowledge on the subject! That closing statement was so on point!
great job. Trent Horn. Very calm. full of wisdom and knowledge . I'm so proud being a faithful Catholic.
@valiant crusader why are anti Catholics always so hostile?
@valiant crusader I understand your passion, but frankly your hatred for "falsehood" seems to include hatred for those you perceive as practicing a false branch of the SAME FAITH
@valiant crusader okay, then why do you accuse Catholics of paganism? You might see certain aspects of RC faith as paganistic, but the issue is you use that as a derogatory insult
@valiant crusader so things which are true should just be naturally apparent to everyone who is not foolish, without guidance or explanation?
@valiant crusader and what is the truth that the rest of us Christians are missing out on exactly?
I don’t know how anyone can read Matthew 25: 31-46 and not understand that you can lose your salvation.
I can definitely see how one can read that and say “one group didn’t live in love working through faith so they were never saved, but the other group did and that was a testament to their true faith and salvation”.
@@Migler1 But after you read James 14-26, you can not.
@@MarkelBeverley Well, that passage is not an issue if you believe in Ephesians 2:10 along with 1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6.
That is also where some believe in the perseverance of the saints and lordship salvation. In no sense does James 2:14-16 indicate losing salvation, but rather it’s talking about a fake, not real faith, the same kind of faith that Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower.
But hey, I’m not here to argue or debate. I just think it’s important to accurately understand and represent what your counterpart believes.
@@Migler1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6 and especially Ephesians 2:10 doesn't refute the fact that what God prepared for us is predicated on what he desires for us. That alone does not determine what we, agents of free will, will ultimately do. Also to Phil 1:6, penance has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins and paying off the eternal debt that sin incurs. Christ did that once and for all on the cross and those graces are applied to us when we repent.
Penance comes after forgiveness and has to do with repairing the harm that sin causes.
James is not speaking on salvation in a temporal sense. He says faith itself is dead. In fact, he makes the point vividly by comparing it to a corpse: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
But hey, I'm not here to argue or debate either. I just think it's important to accurately understand and represent sacred scripture as well as sacred tradition.
Simple, losing salvation assumes human will ability to cause loss. Christ never once talked like that. Jesus infact said those who love him, who are already saved, WILL obey. They WILL do the will of the father. He and the apostles NEVER say “choose to obey” or “choose to believe”.
Jesus says - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Paul said- Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed.
People who believe do not exit practiced sin, by human will. The spirit of God renews them and causes them to exit that life.
Paul-
And you WERE dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But did we exit??? Or did God cause us to exit???
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, MADE us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
Watch…
and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Now….where is our will in any of that??? Where is our willed cooperation???
Paul tells us what cannot cause loss.
Romans 8:38-39 ESV
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Props to Trent. Dr. White has lots of knowledge, but knowledge and wisdom are not synonymous.
And you think, you do tim?
tim spangler, "made you think I was claiming immunity from that universal reality" How did you conjure up that idea?
tim spangler, If what you said to Mike Stapleton is untrue, you use logic to show otherwise. You have ZERO chance of doing so.
tim spangler, What did Mike Stapleton say that made you think he was claiming immunity from that universal reality?
tim, Humility is the only human quality....whereby when you think you have it.....you dont
Dr. James White obviously is looking at this thru Calvanist Glasses. He is so wrong and needs to re-evaluate his stance. Truth is Truth in spite of one's own ignorance or self deception. Great Job Trent Horn!
I think you’re looking through your fallen flesh blinded eyes I think you need to actually study scripture and pray that God opens your eyes to his wisdom and truth🤷♀️
@@carolwilliams383 leave calvanism
@@eugene3484 never been in Calvinism I just believe scripture that God sovereign he elects people to salvation and he predestined them before the foundation of the world leave the lie of free will the man centered doctrine
@@carolwilliams383 so he chooses people to go to heaven and chooses people to go to hell. What a nice guy. God is good all the time, all the time God is good. So glad he chose me.
Lucky me.
@@eugene3484 maybe you if you read Romans nine you’d understand..18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Hopefully, you understand scripture
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!
I am a Protestant who agrees with the Catholic on this issue.
So let me get this straight...
a Sola Scriptura Christian like Mr. White said at 1:27:49 that the average person can't grasp Hebrews 10: 29 if he didn't understand the book of Leviticus...
Are you kidding me? it's a good thing this was not a Sola Scriptura debate because in the next sentence Mr. White makes a reference to "church history"...
smh
Steven Irizarry Church dogma never contradicts the scriptures. When it seems to, all it means is that your interpretation of the scriptures is wrong.
Great job Trent. God bless you, and your 10 closing statement was fantastic. I am a practicing cradled Catholic. I have always known I am in the right faith, but at my age of 60, I want to be able to defend and explain it better to others. I have learn so much from you Trent. I love how you keep your cool, also. Thank you so much.
You should really pay better attention, my friend.
@@markmeyer4532 Trent is one of my favorites to listen to when explaining our Catholic Faith. I also love Brant Pitre. Our faith is so enriched with the Scriptures. Praise you Lord Jesus Christ.
@@markmeyer4532paying attention is what brings people here..
Why does the Catholic Church call themselves “Christians”? From my experience they don’t read scripture for themselves. We are to be Good BAREANS ❤‼️ why do you listen to doctrines of men who add to and take away from the “Word of Truth”⁉️ according to scripture any one who does this should be ACCURSED ‼️💯
Look at Romans 11:6! The idea of having to merit and increase grace is by definition a contradiction.
@1:59:14 - 1:59:38, James White says (as part of the audience applauses):
"No one can know whether they have fulfilled all the conditions necessary for achieving justification, and the dividing line between us this evening is; One fulfilled all those conditions for justification, his name was Jesus Christ, and if I am in Him by faith, then that’s why I have peace with God.”
Nowhere does Scripture even allude, implicitly or unambiguously, that Jesus Christ vicariously “fulfilled all the conditions necessary for achieving justification” solely on our behalf in the sense that we do not have to. In fact, Scripture alone explicitly and clearly states how the righteous requirement of the law, or, namely, that the righteous requirement of justification will be fulfilled IN US:
“that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled IN US who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” - Romans 8:4 (NKJV)
When you are cut off and severed from the fulness of grace, the very grace that gets infused into your soul by the working of the Holy Spirit, particularly in the Holy Communion of Our Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, partaking in the Divine Nature that enables and empowers you to “fulfill the righteous requirement of the law”, then
yes, it makes sense that you are driven to succumbing to a doctrine of faith alone in an external righteousness that never even touches your supposedly “depraved soul”.
As a cradle Catholic I can say when I was a teenager I heard the the protestant version of the gospel and was drawn in by the easy grace they proposed and the longer I listened the more I realized that they all believed different versions of truth. The more I juggled all these different versions the more I realized that the holy spirit would not give us a divided Christianity that Martin Luther gave. So thankful I realized the true church that I was baptized in.
@@JesusChurchBible Correct. If one believes that it’s impossible to obey they won’t obey, what we believe influences what we do, always.
Islam, Mormons, and JW's are also united in their belief. We aren't confused about how to receive salvation, and that's what matters since we all intend to endure to the end either way.
@barelyillegal As a cradle Catholic the Church NEEDED Reformation during the 1500's. But what Luther did is WRONG, he BROKE AWAY and SPLINTERED Christianity.
@@JesusChurchBible this is a really bad take. No Protestant teaches this. Romans 6: 1 and 2
@@Barefootseal_66 many protestants believe once saved always saved. Which means you can sin all you want... all the murder, rape, etc. and you'll still go to heaven if you were baptized or you simply believe in Jesus Christ died for our sins. That is a real teaching a hundreds of churches in this country. I've been to many, spoken to many people personally and watched many "pastor/preachers" online via text as well as RUclips videos teach this " "once saved always saved and go to heaven" false Gospel. I'm not making this up, nobody in Christian history believed this or taught this until Martin Luther taught this. He literally said people should kill thou. This is the same man that many people who new him thought he was mad and had a real mental problem. He said he sometimes hated God. And he was a known anti Semite and was quoted saying he wanted to murder Jews and hang them from the gallows. Jesus was Jewish by the way so this is wild to think an anti Semite teaching about Jesus. This is the man protestants get there teachings from. It's quite sad really. Most have no idea the history of who gave them there false protestant teachings.
"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" -Martin Luther
I feel sorry for Dr. James White for he is a smart man and have learned so much about the truth of God through many debates with Catholic apologists but still remain in his own believe. Will continue to pray for Dr. James Whites conversion..
God made the world without a plan?
Amanda, we feel sorry for you. If you're relying on your own works in any way or part as a means of salvation, then Christ is of no effect to you. You are lost if you believe in faith + works. Period. Please read God's Word without looking through the corrupted lens of Catholicism. It's clear as can be.
Hi Rick Stark. How are you doing? I think you are an intelligent Christian. Your love for Christ is very strong and open. That's why you're willing to spend time to defend and explain about your belief to all our brothers and sisters in this youtube. To be honest, my knowledge is limited. Therefor, I challenge you to call our brother in Christ Dr. David Anders is a convert who will answer to all your questions about Jesus's true teaching. I promise you he will answer you to your satisfaction. His show is "Called to Communion" start at 2pm ET, 1800-585-9396 or 205-271-2985. God bless..
Rick Stark have you read revelation 2:2-5 take the concept of it to define faith + work mean...no human work can be good enough infront of God but can faith alone be good enough too ?? One Killer can have faith on what jesus did for our salvation but if he is not showing work for what christ did for salvation can this killer be saved ???
It comes down to 1 truth. From what do you derive faith in your hope of heaven, your life that you live currently or the life JESUS lived for you. PERIOD there's ONE work Jesus asked for and that was to BELIEVE IN THE ONE SENT.
White's positions were based on NEWLY INVENTED biblical interpretations. He couldn't find any early Church Father from the first 1500 years of christianity that supports the Calvinist position. It's a MANMADE INVENTION.
@valiant crusader Really? Guess you're even more ignorant than I thought.
@valiant crusader All Calvinists are idolators their Idol is Calvinism
The whole Protestant tradition is man-made.
@valiant crusader
Dear fellow Christian,
The fact is division is instigated by the devil, whose name means "the divider". It is factual that protestantism today is divided into possibly as many as 68,000 churches and sects around the world; all in an effort to follow Martin Luther's invented doctrine called: "Sola Scriptura", a theory absent in the Bible. However, what does exist is UNITY around the ever prominent authority of an Apostolic Magisterium formed by Jesus Christ around His Twelve Apostles and their successors.
LET US REFLECT ON THE UNDENIABLE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE.
FIRST, Jesus founded ONE CHURCH:
MATTHEW 16:18-19
18. And I tell YOU, YOU are PETER, and on THIS ROCK I will BUILD MY CHURCH, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. .
19. I will GIVE YOU the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you BIND on earth shall be BOUND in HEAVEN, and whatever you LOOSE on earth shall be LOOSED in HEAVEN.”
SECOND, A mission was given by Jesus to His ONE CHURCH, promising to never leave Her alone; even to the end of the world:
MATTHEW 28:19-20
19. Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20. teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, to the close of the age.”
("With you" is a singular reference to HIS one Church)
THIRD, Truth is guaranteed constantly and forever to the ONE CHURCH founded by Jesus.
JOHN 17: 18-19
18. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
19. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be CONSECRATED IN TRUTH.
JOHN 16: 12-15
12. “I HAVE yet MANY THINGS TO SAY TO YOU, but you cannot bear them now.
13. When the SPIRIT of TRUTH comes, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
14. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
15. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that HE WILL TAKE WHAT IS MINE and DECLARE IT TO YOU.
FOURTH, Constant UNITY will always be the main identifier of the Church founded by Jesus, as he clearly promised in:
JOHN 17: 20-23
20. “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21. so that THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may BE IN US, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE,
23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
1 CORINTHIANS 10:16-17
16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17. Because there is one bread, WE who are many ARE ONE BODY, for we all partake of the ONE BREAD.
FIFTH, Obedience to Jesus' established Apostolic Magisterium, is what fulfills the plan of UNITY for His ONE and ONLY CHURCH:
●LUKE 10:16
16. 'Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.'
("YOU" is His singular Church).
MATTHEW 18:17
17. If he refuses to listen to them, tell THE CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to THE CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
18. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
("The Church" is singular, it doesn't mean a plurality of churches).
May God bless your discernment.
Without church history, Catholics have nothing to go on!
This debate actually made me come to Catholicism. I wasn't sure of all the other Catholic Doctrines, but I began to listen to Brant Pitre, Scott Hahn, and other Catholic Answer speakers, including Trent Horn. As nice as life could be not needing to confess my sins to a priest and what not, logic and truth can only take you the the Catholic Church. I was born into a Catholic family, but when I really came to Christ at 20 years old, I was anti Catholic because I was listening to Protestants only and had a lot of protestant friends and was a few weeks from joining their church so I would say I was very unbiased. They cherry pick. Catholics really look at the hole picture and make sense.
The entire dogmatic tradition of the Catholic church is cherry picked. Development of doctrine is advocated for, for a reason.
Where’s the Mary adoration come from? 😳 be careful. Mass gives more focus to her than our Savior Himself!
Rome has fell away from pure doctrine and pursuit of Jesus.
@@Amencore that is false! You are lying and you clearly have never been to Mass. Mary is only ever mentioned once in the entire mass and only during the recitation of the Creed where she's referenced as having given birth to our Lord Jesus, and even then it's in the context of her relationship to Our Lord. The entire mass is dedicated to worshipping God, our Father, Lord and Saviour. No one else.
You clearly have never been to mass, otherwise you'd know this, which only makes it clear how your goal is not to inform but just to calumniate Catholics.
@@gilbertotoledo1421 I’m not lying. I’m basing off what I’ve heard and seen from mass.
It's very easy to fall into protestantism. It's literally everywhere, especially in the USA. In inner city areas theres always at least 5 or 6 protestant churches of competing denominations where there is only 1 Catholic church if you're lucky.
We are constantly bombarded by protestant influenced media that pushes, whether consciously or unconsciously, its protestant view of the world on us. Catholics are always being singled out, made fun of, or criticized by most protestant sects constantly as being wrong when they can't even agree on basic theology. To them we are always the bad guys, that is until they need an exorcism (I wonder why?).
If you're a nominal catholic that doesn't fully know his own faith, it's easy to cave to the protestant accusations and believe their lies or worse their heresies.
Thats why it's important to read the Bible but also the Church Fathers and the Catechism to know why we believe what we believe. Because our beliefs don't come from nowhere, they come from the written word of the Bible and the unwritten word of the Apostolic Tradition that St. Paul asked us to hold on to and which our protestant brothers have forsaken.
The Bishop of Rome sits on the seat of St. Peter, as the Patriarch of Constantinople sits on the seat of St. Andrew and the Bishop of Alexandria once sat on the seat of St. Mark. Let no one tell you that Catholics are not Christians for we, together with the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Churches, are the original Christians. We are the early church to whom protestant sects love to compare themselves to ironically. Stay strong in your faith brother.
1:47:00 to 1:48:12 James White dismantles his own argument...perfect response by Horn, "how do you fall from grace if you never had it in the first place" lol 😆
The same way that the sun moves from east to west even though it stands still and the earth revolves.
Both frames of reference are valid. Choose one and stick with it, and you'll describe the interaction between the sun and earth correctly. Switch midstream and you'll confuse the scenario.
*. God forekows, predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies.
* Man hears the gospel, believes, confesses, calls on the Lord, stays faithful till the end and is saved on Judgment Day.
Both perspectives are valid.
Hearing the gospel is a grace.
Believing truly is a different kind of grace.
Trent is conflating the two when he asks your question.
Interesting when Trent started his cross examination, he tried to find some common ground with James by connecting with him over which city he lives in, and James writes him off with a cheeky response about how many others also live in this city.
I noticed this as well. It's pretty typical of James White, and pretty low. I wonder if he realises how much it puts people off.
@@gregcooper3773 but according to James white he is not prideful, lol.
you will know them by their denomination.
If you take that into effect notice how this kind of people treat anyone else. Why be nice, why do anything if I am saved.
Biggest question is how do you know if you are chosen. How do you measure.
@@maxrice6990 that’s why no one like him lol
I could never believe like Calvin ever again as he ultimately makes God the author of sin.
Precisely!
Your belief is man centered if you think you can choose to reject God's Grace.
@@Knildragon No it is not.
@@Knildragon it’s far more complex than Arminius or Calvin bud. You keep bending scripture to stay within your doctrine and keep telling everyone else their way is “man centered”. You Calvinists are modern day Pharisee
I’m afraid you are mistaken. Calvin never made such assertion.
By what authority does James White proclaim the “correct” way to interpret the Bible? He uses the words of the Church Fathers to justify his position - however he does not accept the authority of those same fathers???
How do you conclude they are the words of the 'church fathers'? Because they said so?
Seems to me you are standing on circular reasoning rather than on what is God-breathed.
I’m Lutheran, but I will stand in support with my Roman Catholic friends here
Of course because Lutheran's are Not Saved by GRACE Alone!
Btw..did you lose your Salvation yet...since you watched the debate?
@@cassandragarcia5548 You sound awfully sure of your salvation. You even seem to boast about it; even mocking another believer in Christ. In fact, you seem far more assured and confidant than the Apostle Paul in his earlier life, who said:
1 Corinthians 4:1-5
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
read the context they were fighting over who was better/being baptized and or taught by a specific apostle. So he tells them to focus on christ not the servants of Christ because you cant see there true intents when they preach/teach
@@yes_senpai8880
@@cassandragarcia5548 you don’t speak like someone who was saved.
@@cassandragarcia5548 you sound prideful here. Are you sure YOU are saved ?
I will forever love this debate because of Trent's statement at 2:12:53, followed by James' sputtering indignation at 2:13:36. Great job Trent!
Do you not realise that White is actually correct and logical to draw this inference from Trents statement. This is what Trent declared. And by the way he was correct to do so.
Sola Scriptura is so grounded and rooted all through Scripture, that it's simply astonishing that anyone seriously debates it. None other than Saint Peter holds us to this principle and He will allow nothing other than God's word to be uttered in the church:
"If ANYONE speak, let him speak
AS THE ORACLE'S of GOD"
(1 Peter 4:11)
But this idea is not merely Apostolic... Already false teachers were uttering the traditions of men in the church of the Old Testament days. Now God had already commanded that we must use the principle of Sola Scriptura in all our teaching, by the hand of his servant Moses. And the Lord attached the penalty of death to all who violate this.
"But the prophet, which shall presume
to speak A WORD IN MY NAME,
which I have not commanded him to
speak, or that shall speak in the name
of other gods, even that prophet shall
die." (Deuteronomy 18:20)
And disobedience to Sola Scriptura had become such a problem during the apostasy of the Old Testament Jewish church in the days of Jeremiah, that God warned:
"Behold, I am AGAINST the
PROPHETS, saith the LORD,
that use their tongues, and say,
'HE SAITH'. " (Jeremiah 23:31)
And of these the Lord complained:
"I have not sent these prophets, yet
they ran: I have not spoken to them,
yet they prophesied... Yea, they are
prophets of the deceit of their own
heart". (Jeremiah 23:21, 26)
And so God held the church to the principle of Sola Scriptura also then as now:
'He that hath MY WORD, let him SPEAK
MY WORD FAITHFULLY. What is the
chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD."
(Jeremiah 23:28)
And Isaiah states it like this:
"To the Law and to the Testimony: if
they speak not according to THIS
WORD, it is because there is no light
in them. (Isaiah 8:20)
Trent still speaks like a Christian inasmuch as he holds to Scripture Alone and confesses true Christian doctrine.
The Calvinist White, however, comes across as truly arrogant in this debate. And in fact, it ought to be made very clear that Calvinists do not follow Sola Scriptura, not by a country mile! Since the days of Ulrich Zwingli and his successors, they have replaced the pope in Rome along with his private interpretations, with an army of Calvinistic and reformed popes. Instead of one great pope, they have an army of little popes, all giving their own interpretations! Such is the state of reformed Christianity, whether Calvinist, semi-Calvinist or Armenian.
So while in fact White was right to point out the principle of Sola Scriptura, his arguments were riddled with error and Calvinist reasonings. Whereas Trent was right to point out that a true Christian can indeed fall away and be finally lost if he or she dies in unrepented sin...
For it stands written:
"When I shall say to THE RIGHTEOUS, that HE SHALL SURELY LIVE .....
IF he trust to his own righteousness, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but FOR HIS INIQUITY that he hath committed, HE SHALL DIE for it."
(Ezekiel 33:13)
And again:
"IF ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YE SHALL LIVE."
(Romans 8:13)
@@mathete9968Your statement is demonstratively false! Sola scriptura is found NOWHERE in scripture, and none of the texts you present do anything to show otherwise.
Tradition is also infallible according to scripture! See 1 thes 2:13
"And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from HEARING us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe."
And 1 Peter 1:24-25
"for:
“All flesh is like grass,
and all its glory like the flower of the field;
the grass withers,
and the flower wilts;
but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
This is the word that has been PROCLAIMED to you."
2 thes 2:15
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours."
2 thes 3:6
"We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us."
No passage in scripture EVER teaches that true doctrine should be drawn from scripture alone! Sacred Scripture AND sacred tradition is the word of God! And when trent stated "we should get our theology from the bible" he is correct! But notice he did not say "ONLY from the bible!" And james white proceeded to twist his words in a way that Trent clearly did not intend to imply!
@@matthewoburke7202so when francis approves sodomy, in stark contrast to scripture, what then?
@@Eric-1776 He will never do so. He has explicitly said that it is sinful and will never bind the Church to an error like that.
Sixth ecumenical council
"For this is the rule of the true faith, which this spiritual mother of your most tranquil empire, the Apostolic Church of Christ (The Roman Church), has both in prosperity and in adversity always held and defended with energy; which, it will be proved, by the grace of Almighty God, has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations, but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ (Peter and Paul), and remains undefiled unto the end, according to the divine promise of the Lord and Saviour himself, which he uttered in the holy Gospels to the prince of his disciples: saying, Peter, Peter, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for you, that (your) faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren."
@@Eric-1776 is this what you’re banking on? Because if so as it stands, there are protestant pastors and denominations today that bless and marry same sexes. So yea….
much respect to Mr.Horn and Dr.White :D both were calm and have their arguments said explicitly.
I am reformed and I respect Trent, very articulate! :)
Trent Horn thanks you cleared away all confusion, you dispelled it from the hearts and minds of all people listening to you. May the Light of Truth shine on all our separated brethren.
they are not true brothers: they are reckless heretics...
You would of course mean those that are anathema? To be cursed? As per the counsel of Trent?
@@silveriorebelo8045
Don't use that phrasing
"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."
1 Peter 3 15:16
GENTLENESS AND RESPECT
@@christopherneedham9584 Anathema or not, they are separated brethren we are obligated to bring back, but DO NOT use inflammatory language. That's unchristian.
See my other comment.
@@crusaderACR as per the counsel of Trent, they are not separated brethren. They are anathematized heretics. All Catholics who argue against this are opposition to the dogmatic teachings in that counsel.
I think watching this debate with all Mr White statements really prove me that I am less patient than I thought. I don't know how Trent did to remain calm. Great job Trent, you exposed your point with so many grace, charity and clarity. Keep on the good work, and God bless you for what you're doing for his church.
I would say white won this, but just barely. I agree with whites position, but from a neutral standpoint, I would say, Trent did an awesome job explaining himself. The reason I agree with white is because white reads text exegetically and Trent reads plainly. White reads hermeneutically through an exegetical contextual point of view and Trent reads from an “open book read as you see it” kind of approach.
The scripture themselves say that you can’t just read scripture plainly because if you’re reading it from the point of view of unregenerate unbeliever, you won’t understand it. Scripture is a spiritually discerned text.
@@HillbillyBlack Your second statement is abjectly false
@@explodingrubberducky797 would you say reading scripture is a spiritually discerned action?
@@explodingrubberducky797 put another way, would you agree the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to them , and they are not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned?
@@HillbillyBlack You're taking that from 1 Corinthians 2:14. However, that's not necessarily talking strictly about unbelievers. Because in the next chapter 3. Paul tells the Corinthians this:
1 Corinthians 3:1-4
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; *for until now you were not able to receive it *, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and [a]behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
☝He tells the Corinthian believers that they are carnal and could not receive solid and had to be fed milk as babes
I was raised mormon and still technically am but I want to be Catholic. I remember I once had to do a research project of the early history of the church and it’s impossible even through all the flaws of men that this isn’t the church that Christ spoke of in Matthew 5:14
You need to leave Mormonism now. This isn't something that you can dilly-dally about.
Luma, think about this. Jesus started just one church, not churches. Ephesians 4 says there is one faith, one baptism one God and Father of all. Jesus in John 17 prayed we would all be one just as he and the father on one. Look up on RUclips, "The Veil Removed" to see what happens at a Mass.
@@EdwardGraveline facts. Its either Catholicism or you’re justifying faith to meet your own lifestyle not Christ’s
@@lumanate1493 There have been six saints who saw the Mass with Angeles and Jesus on the Cross and all the saints. Padre Pio said the same. check out the short movie called The Veil Removed to see what they saw.
Are you home in the Catholic Church? Praying for you
thanks for the upload, I got 7 hours of train ahead of me...this will help me through a part of it :)
This was a great debate to listen, thank you catholic answers for uploading this video
It's amazing to me how much someone will twist and reinterpret scripture solely on a preconceived notion. I was a protestant for 30+ yrs until the absolute incoherence of the solas and the mental gymnastics I had to perform to try and comprehend scripture became too exhausting & contradictory. Praise Jesus for giving me the grace and humility to see my false pride, ego and arrogance. I came into full communion with the body of Christ (Catholic Church) 5 years ago. Scripture absolutely leaps off the page now and I don't have to explain verses away out of context anymore. I now understand the treasure in the field. The peace & comfort of being in the bosom of the Church is indescribable.
One of the most ludicrous claims by White is his interpretation of Hebrews 10:29, that the one sanctified is Jesus as opposed to it being the apostate (see 1:26:57).
Trent Horn is a great debater, so is Dr. James White. I came out of Roman Catholicism over 20 years ago and fall on the Reformed side now, but man, these are two very sharp men.
That's a real shame.
Come back home.
I'm Catholic and I'm proud to be a Catholic.
Should I switch to catholicism
If you also want to boast in yourself, just as is demonstrated here.
@@alexjoneschannel Yes, God Wills it
@@thewatcher611 You should be proud of Christ, and His church
@@kyrptonite1825 I have converted thanks to the letters in response to the donatist schism
Watched this many years ago as a Protestant, now I am watching as someone who is one week away from becoming a Catechumen. I can’t wait to be in full communion with the Catholic Church in April 2025.
Worth noting that not all Protestants believe in this 😅
@ exactly! Protestants can’t agree on basically any essential Christian doctrine (salvation, baptism, Eucharist etc.) because of the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. It’s truly a maze and vast array of confusion, chaos and disorder.
@@amnnn1991 I mean to be fair, disparity in scriptural interpretation exists between every sect of Christianity. Unfortunately Catholicism still doesn’t resolve that issue. It’s not like the RCC offers an infallible interpretation of the objective meanings of every Bible verse.
@@anne.ominous Of course it doesn’t offer an infallible interpretation of every verse. That would be overwhelming. It does, however, offer a complete understanding of all essential doctrines (Eucharist, Salvation, Baptism etc.). Nobody is expecting an interpretation of every verse.
@@amnnn1991 So is there an infallible list of essential doctrines then?
Great job by Trent Horn! Very impressive performance!
when trent referenced the prodigal son, I shed a tear and felt His Spirit fill my heart.. very well said, and like God said He was well pleased with St thomas, I believe He is very well pleased with what trent said
I don't think calvinists really think through their doctrine. A man is standing at his judgment, and God is condemning him to hell because he did not believe in Christ. Not because he rejected God's call, but because he was *never* called! Meaning God didn't even give him the chance to believe in him, but chose him for hell from the beginning if his existence. Can anyone really believe that?
Gerard no one because that's not what Calvinism teaches
Theology Matters
Oh , i must have not been watching the same debate 😜
Cuz i heard that no one could come to the Father unless he draws them, but he doesn't draw everyone. hmm
Gerard wrote: >>Oh , i must have not been watching the same debate 😜 Cuz i heard that no one could come to the Father unless he draws them, but he doesn't draw everyone. hmm
Miria Reuther
Yes you're right, and how many people does he draw exactly?
How serious is this question? Or are you just being sacrastic?
The great problem for Reformed theology is that even people who are justified and produce fruit of the Spirit (repentance, good works etc.) nevertheless sometimes commit sins, including adultery, fornication etc. - the very sins that St. Paul says will keep people from Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21). But, according to the Reformed position, if such a person is a true and justified Christian they will inherit the kingdom of God and sins listed by St. Paul in Galatins 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 cannot impact their standing before God. That contradicts what St. Paul says - he says that whoever does these things will not be saved (unless he repents of course), Reformed Protestant is forced to say that there are some people who can do these things without losing justification, which is impossible in light of Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthias 6. You commit
adultery, fornication etc. - you lose justification, period.
This is not a problem for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has to be emphasized that this is not a general problem for reformed theology, as within that framework there are many interpretations of salvation. With that clarified, a person who is indwelt by the spirit is maintained such that he would not sin egregiously. And further the interpretation that people who have committed these sins will not "inherit the kingdom of God" has to be understood within Paul's ministry, rather than independent of it. Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified. Once we acknowledge his general stance on the power of the atonement and the work of the holy spirit, there are many ways to understand these verses. The person who says that the one who is genuinely saved and indwelt by the spirit can go on sinning just as the unbeliever does probably hasn't experienced the work of the holy spirit in his life. There is no other way to understand cynicism as in regards to the ability of the spirit to maintain a believer. If our becoming the children of God could just be unwritten, what kind of children are we? I don't know many children who stop becoming their parents' offspring when they disobey them. With that said, catholicism is still irredeemably damnable and glaringly heretical. That salvation can be lost does not validate the unbiblical, ungodly, man-made doctrines of Rome, which turn man into God, and Christ into an impotent mediator unable to save.
@@@RagingBlast2Fan
"a person who is indwelt by the spirit is maintained such that he would not sin egregiously"
That would necessarily mean that people indwelt by the spirit will not commit sins which St. Paul says will keep people away from God. Obviously, that is not true - justified Christians are not immune to commiting fornication, adultery, etc., so they can't be immune from losing salvation either.
"And further the interpretation that people who have committed these sins will not "inherit the kingdom of God" has to be understood within Paul's ministry, rather than independent of it."
St. Paul is very clear - "*I warn you, as I did before*, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:21). St. Paul directs this warning about not inheriting the kingdom of God as a result of sinning to everyone in the Galatian congregation, which includes those who are justified.
"Once we acknowledge his general stance on the power of the atonement and the work of the holy spirit, there are many ways to understand these verses."
That is a classical example of begging the question fallacy - first you assume that St. Paul took a Reformed stance on the atonement and work of the Holy Spirit, and then proceed reinterpret clear warning passages directed to justified believers about a very real possibility of losing their salvation if they return to sin and fail to repent, in order to fit them int your preconceived theological system. This is what Dr White has been doing throughout this debate - Hebrews 10:26-29, 2 Timothy 2:11-13, Romans 8:12-13, Galatians 5:19-21 and many other passages clearly warn against losing salvation, but since he is Reformed he can't have that, so he calls these passages "descriptive", even though nothing in their context indicates that. His theology forces his interpretation.
"The person who says that the one who is genuinely saved and indwelt by the spirit can go on sinning just as the unbeliever does probably hasn't experienced the work of the holy spirit in his life."
If somebody goes back to commiting serious sin he is no longer indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches it is a real possibility - Hebrews 10:26 says *we* (first person) can go back to sinning willingly and what terrible punishment awaits for that if we remain in that state.
"If our becoming the children of God could just be unwritten, what kind of children are we? I don't know many children who stop becoming their parents' offspring when they disobey them."
Father-children relationship between God and us is not the same as between biological parents and their children, so it is fallacious to use this comparison as if the two are the same. And even in the case of biological parents a parent can permanently disinherit his children for grave reasons.
"and Christ into an impotent mediator unable to save."
It is interesting how Protestants, who claim to believe in Scripture alone, bring up this sort of objection, which does not come from Scripture at all. They object that if people for whom Christ died are not saved, then Christ failed. But that is their human understanding of what success and failure means, which makes it a philosophical rather than a Biblical objection. God gets to define what is failure and what is not, and if He does not see people losing salvation (as He revealed in the Bible is possible) as failure, then it is not - period.
Glory to The Holy Trinity! Thank you Mr Trent Horn. We have you in our daily praying.
@Michael Trn May the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have mercy on your soul.
I'm so thankful to Jesus Christ for leading me to His Catholic Church! I pray He will soften James White's heart and bring him to the Truth.
Amen. ✝️
Jesus never said he would lead us to a religion with traditions of man. Jesus spoke against religion and traditions.
@@danielvega442 Jesus did not condemn tradition. That is a fundamentalist argument. Jesus's last supper (which is a Jewish passover) is scared tradition. How did he condemn it if he participated in scared tradition? Lastly, if Jesus spoke against tradition, please explain Matthew 5:17
@@MarkelBeverley as in washing of the hands remember the pharsiess were calling out Jesus then he told them you speak God's words with your mouth but your heart's are far from him. As in being religious. By the way Jesus never said he's Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah witnesses he never claimed the title of a church.
@@danielvega442 Well, lets be clear that unlike Mormon, Baptist, C.O.G.I.C., Pentecostal, etc, The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Followers of Christ originally known as "The Way" were first called Christians in the city of Antioch. Under St John was a disciple named Ignatius who later became "Ignatius of Antioch" when he was ordained by Paul and appointed by Peter as the Bishop of Antioch . When the time came that he was called to Rome to be martyred, in one of his letters (to Christians in Smyrna), he wrote, “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” This is the earliest known written record of the term “Catholic Church” (written around A.D. 107),The term “Catholic Church” (Gk. katholike ekklesia) broadly means “universal assembly,” and Ignatius used it in the writing as a term of unity. He exhorted these Christians to follow their bishop just as the broader universal assembly of Christians follows Christ. He clearly uses the terms “Christian” and “Catholic Church” distinctly: disciples of Christ are Christians; the *universal assembly of Christians is the Catholic Church .
How is James White gonna say his argument isn't "Once saved, always saved" when that sounds exactly like what he's arguing.
hahaha, I like to call him the spin-doctor, he will talk so much, red-herring, straw-maning...you will lose track what's he talking about ! He IS the master, I will have to admit after listening to him for awhile
Once saved, always saved could include someone who signed a card or made a profession of faith in Christ while continuing in all his sins and having absolutely no change in his life. This is why James White distinguishes himself from it.
I don't think James White has any problem with the strict literal meaning of the words "Once saved, always saved", but when used as a slogan, it's associated with a particular teaching that goes beyond the literal meaning of the words.
Yeah, there seems to be some confusion on his part.
@@leahunverferth8247 Yes I think by once saved always saved he means a person who made a profession, never has a change, doesn't want to do good works, never progresses in santification, but said a prayer or was baptized or something and is supposedyl justified from it
"I wish Jesus would just carry my laptop like He carries my sins"
-Trent Horn
Wait did he actually say that
He did....when he got nervous and his mind fumbled for a minute
21:54 "I guess for most of you that was foreordained"
As a Calvinist convert to Catholicism, that was HILARIOUS
@1:55:03 Trent Horn loses the debate and exposes the reason why Roman Catholicism is apostate.
He says not all those who are justified are glorified in Romans 8.
Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30
@@elunico13 by calling Roman Catholics apostate you acknowledge that groups of Christians can lose salvation.
@@gabequinn9796 Haha you gotta be kidding me. Believing in a Jesus like the JWs, Mormons and Catholics doesn't save you.
Is it OK to believe that Jesus is an angel, brother of satan, or didn't die for all sin and needs his virgen mom to intercede in his place.
You're nuts dude.
@@elunico13 I appreciate the ad hominem. You need to study more church history. Go into any Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Catholic church and you'll find the same answer on salvation- it can be lost. And the Bible backs my claim.
Consider the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:1-23). I'll give you the part that shows how Christians can fall away: "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."
(Matthew 13:20-22 KJV)
Also, Catholics formed the canon. Any argument you wanna base off Scripture, I want you to consider the fact that you're using a canon that was formed by theoretical apostates.
@@elunico13 All Christians affirm that Jesus is the One Mediator between God and man. When Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:46-47 KJV), she knew that she was saved from sin too, through the Son that she bore.
Really good debate. I always appreciate Catholic and Calvinist perspectives on these issues.
I know this post is 4 years old and I only watched a snippet of it but the haunting words of Jesus in Mathew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'..... this speaks for itself
God bless trent horn for enduring the debate.... So many souls are being saved.... And in the least are led to doubting the heresy that once saved,go party..no trembling to work your way to salvation
You don’t have to work your way to salvation what you say is foolish, We who are in christ and remain do have salvation. We are sealed untill the day of redemption. The Bible clearly states that it’s not by world that we’d are saved but by grace. So that no man can boast Ephesians 2:8-9
Thankyou Trent, you are a great inspiration to me as a Catholic....both on these issues, and on that of abortion....I very much to learn from you, God bless you and Mr White!
Truly a great debate, Trent horn so inspirational with that closing.
The devil comes as the angel of light
Watched this twice. First time Baptist. Second time Catholic. This video started my journey into the rabbit hole.
I am also a reformed Christian, and I love catholics (many members of my extended family are catholic). The closing statements by Dr. White really hit home with me. I know full well that if my salvation was dependent in any way on what I do, have done, or have not done, then there would be no hope for me. I am a wretched sinner who has been saved by the grace of God. The righteousness of Christ is my only righteousness. He is the perfect savior. All that the Father gives to the Son, come to Him. No one comes to Father unless the Father draws him. None of His sheep will be lost. He will raise me up on the last day.
Jesus says in John 15 "Abide in my Love"
He also said "Abide in me and I in you"
What about John 6? Jesus commands us to eat His flesh & drink His Blood? Then He will raise us up on the Last Day.
DavidAsaphProject Amen 🙏
Congratulations to Trent Horn!!!
Yea congratulations to Trent, he's a blind man leading all of you into a ditch
@oldcorps76 I’m not in a ditch at all. Unlike you, a ditch that was dug out by Leo the ninth
Go Trent!!! That was a fun debate!
James White sister converted to Catholicism. Great job James 👍
@ReyWhocheck out journey home with patty bonds as guest
That his sister
Rubbish
Not his fault his sister has bad theology
@@jordangarvin9282 Despite the bad influence of her brother, she managed to make it to the actual Church, so that is commendable.
@ReyWho also her conversion story is in the book surprised by truth 3.
As reformed Baptist, I thought Trent did a great job! If I hadn’t known he was Catholic, I would have thought it was 2 Protestants debating the issue.
Why do you say that?! We could get any priest ad they'd defeat a protestant. They're literally doctors in Christian theology and history..
@@dennis1662 Roman Catholicism isnt biblical christianity, but a pagan Greco Roman babylonian system. The whole mary worship thing as essentials to faith amongst other things has no biblical basis, please show me 1 biblical text of mary being venerated or prayed to/through. I dont know if the professing Catholics here would vouch for this but it's a core belief of upholding mary as co redemptrix which is u scriptural.on this factor alone to be saved and then lose it is irrelevant to a catholic and heresy why.because if you dont focus your faith in mary aswell then you cannot be saved (this is a belief held officially by the catholic church). Its a MASSIVE factor.
Now, I'm not a calvinist, protestant or catholic so I have a perfect standing point here being a christian but no subscribing to the above.
Yes, extreme calvinism does teach that a man is irresistibly saved even if he doesnt want to be, so the idea that you cannot lose your salvation has to follow the theology, it's truly false.
On the other side Catholicism seems to be more correct in some of the discussion displayed but as stated above the core factor of Catholics is umbilical so because he presents a stronger case on some arguments here doesnt mean Catholicism is true, it isnt.
Catholicism is a cross plus works base for its salvation and it isnt what jesus taught.
If you check all the pointers trent discloses to indicate someone is in a 'saved' state do please notice something that's not mentioned but fundermemtal.
You can be sincerely walking in christ being obedient to God even for years, yet the moment you wake up and say 'mary isnt co redeemer' then in strict Catholicism your immediately become unsaved. It really is a hooded salvation issue that 1 needs to recognise.if Christ paid for all your sin, or you atone in purgatory for your own, which gospel do you want to believe? You cannot have both..
@@LB_die_Kaapie bring them on ! the end result is they will deny clear scripture and claim scripture has no authority then turn around and use scripture as there proof and authority.
Titus3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Romans1:17
For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “ The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:6
And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him…
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:39
nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.