I'm probably old and outdated too, maybe that's why I appreciate simplicity. Things I understand and can work on myself. I don't like all the electronics on everything.
Hi Alf. Your headline ref Harley 's being outdated and irrelevant is a headline that could have been written about Harley 50 years ago when Honda introduced the 750/4. They refuse to divest themselves from the outdated v twin format of so long ago and instead rely on making the design cope with ever larger displacement and ever higher prices, neither of which are appropriate for motorcycles where less weight and cheaper transport are key drivers of a two wheeled machine.
Not everyone wants or need a laptop on their handlebars. Harley is keeping it simple and authentic, it's more like a old school muscle car. Think roaring big block engine like Mustang, Camaro, Trans Am, GTO, Charger, Challenger, Chevelle or Cuda, keep it simple and effin' awesome like a Harley!
Harley-Davidsons are so outdated that when the Pan America was released, BMW scrambled to copy the Pan Am's Electronic Suspension with Automatic Ride Height feature🙄Look, H-D's new baggers are loaded with tech now, which also contributes to the high prices. As a Pan Am owner, if H-D came out with a lighter weight (around 450-480 lbs) 975 "Continental" ADV with a decent suspension (non-electronic), cheap ABS & low-grade traction control (in some places they're required by law, I could live without the TC though), and cruise control I'd trade in my 1250 that day. I don't need 12 axis IMUs, radar, or 1000s of sensors. At this point, I think ALL manufacturers are just tossing needless stuff on bikes to justify their insane pricing schemes.
I agree with that purpose, I own a 2024 RKS after 4 others M8, 1 TC and 2 evo's, and I think techonology and performance have gone too far. Harley Davidson for me is about freedom and sensations, cruising at low revs, I don't need all that stuf, I prefere riding a simple and authentic bike and I think I will go back to a 2002 carb Road King or an evo... Greetings from France...
It would be nice to have the rider safety aids available as a package option. So those who want it can have it and those who don't can choose not to have them. The engine and retro style is the best part of a harley.
Shit engines? They are not throw away bikes like most brands. You can rebuild a Harley almost infinite. I love the Harley motor and part of the reason I own them like of us do. Go buy your throw away motors
I have a low rider s.. I don't want hi tech as loads to go wrong. I also have a bmw R1250GS it's always going back to bmw with bike sos warninglight abs light on all the time, sat nav not working, no tft screen, fuel cap won't open as its keyless... that's all in the last year ... I love lRS117 as it has none of these. I get on and ride 😎
My low rider ST has everything short of the riding modes. Fortunately the softail models were spared the weight (and cost) of the stereo systems and large LCD displays.
@@chrislecouteur2360 2024 Low Rider S here. Similar experience with BMWs, too. Love the simplicity and quality of everything. Some may think it over-priced, but I can see what I’m getting. All the best.
@@chrislecouteur2360 I have a 2020 114 with over 80000km. Been my main vehicle from March to December for 5 years and still enjoy it as much as the first day.
Harley has its issues but being “outdated” ain’t one of them IMO. I think tech is simply overrated these days. If something is not loaded with tech, it’s irrelevant or too expensive, but it’s a bit of bs to some degree. I watched a video a couple of days ago where the dude made some analogies about it and it made perfect sense. Why do people picnic if we have comfortable tables at home? Why do we grill sausages on a bonfire, if we have ovens? Etc.… we still do those things from time to time and nobody wanders why.
@@logangodofcandy Performance? Haha, a great bunch of detractors and haters, who supposedly own "better" and state-of-the-art motorcycles that have gazillions of horses... lack the skills to squeeze each and every horsepower of their galactic two wheeled computers. Performance? Public roads have speed limits for a reason. Performance? The great majority of those like you're breed have NEVER gone to set a foot on a race track. Performance? For daily use on public roads, the estimated enough horsepower is 40. To use those gazillion HP, which in the first place means rolling in full length the throttle (in case you don't know, horsepower is not a fix number; it depends on RPM and torque), which it is certain you and your breed don't have the chance to exploit on public roads, unless you're irresponsible and reckless. Let's talk about performance on an enclosed circuit. For daily use, it is of no use. You've been brainwashed.
@@logangodofcandy… nope, I did say they have some (other) issues, but I’m talking about being “outdated”. But even that it’s not exactly as you say IMO. A Low Rider S, a Sport Chief and an R18 cost roughly the same where I live. The HD is the only one without riding modes, but that’s pretty much it. Everything else is very similar. Tech and performance wise that is.
Its why I love my Harleys. Don't want tech on my Harley. Just wish they would lower the prices. I own other bikes, and they have a purpose. But no other bike makes me feel like I do like my Harley.
Bikes, in general, have been good for the past 50+ years, if you're a discerning buyer. How much more do we need? Lighter this, more powerful that, blah, blah, blah. I get the virtue of ABS brakes, but after that, what else do you need? If the bike's that powerful that you need traction control and wheelie control and fifteen different "rider" modes, buy a bike that doesn't need all of that. Any bike that will get up to 70 or 80 in a reasonable amount of time, cruise at that speed, stop and corner with a reasonable degree of confidence is enough for 99% of riders that I know.
See your point, but last sentence "enough for 99% of riders" yet HD's are among the most expensive. Price should reflect the "enough offerings" IMO. I enjoy my 09 Ultra and 87 FLHS, both over 100k mi. Like tech, but too many videos' of 2024 models left stranded due to new tech.
@@elrumcajs777 If you like to channel your inner Valentino in a "safe" off road environment then fair enough, ignore everything that I stated. But for riding to work, going to get the bread and milk on, going for a blast a few towns over... whatever, get a grip on yourself. I wonder what demands the great man himself would put on a bike to do such a job?
@@larryj8924 Well, this is the other thing, isn't it. "Tech" adds cost, and it reduces reliability. On my planet, it's star date 2024 and cost and reliability are still valued by many of my species. I have a Kawasaki W800. Despite its fuel injection (which I don't mind), its "just" a bike. No bells, no whistles, check the tyre pressure yourself, check the chain, the oil, the fuel, turn the key and press the button.
@@Prometheus1979 … if he can’t afford one, then he can’t afford the competition neither cuz I don’t see a significant price difference that would make or break a deal.
@@Prometheus1979 YES! And that’s not something to be proud of! Younger Americans are having a tougher time affording things like motorcycles and white collar ceos like zeitz making fewer bikes for higher prices will damn the brand in the eyes of the young masses. It may not put them down in the long term but it will bury this notion of Harley’s being for a blue collar audience. Only Dentists and Doctors can afford a Road King.
Harley’s are not a throwback motorcycle because there touring bikes were designed for motor cops that need the lean angle and ability to install equipment on. It’s just most people do not know how to ride them properly to take advantage of how they perform.
The majority of motorcycles I see on the US highways are HD's. I see a lot of younger people riding them too. When I say younger, I don't mean kids on crotch rockets wearing power ranger suits. I see an increasing number of people in their late 20's and 30's riding them. Expensive? hell yeah they're expensive. Ever price a Goldwing, or BMW? They're expensive too. Even Ducati's are expensive. How bout a $60k MV Agusta? or the 2025 Yamaha R1M at $28k ? People like them because they have Soul. Other motorcycle companies try and copy the look and feel, but have no soul.
Some Harley Davidson touring models have so much ( hidden ) technology, even the owners don't now. So many riders haven't even heard of the fact they have a Parade mode on their bike to switch off the rear cylinder, so it works like a airpump to cool down the oil. Once moving the bike again the rear cylinder will fire up again, and your're back on two cylinders. On some models the oil pump spray oil against the underside of the pistons to cool them down. Some Harley riders don't even now they have rear air suspension on their bike.
Putting all the tech in the world on it would only make it worse lol. I used to ride a Road King, there's one good road to ride nearby, or there's endless amounts of dirt roads, jeep trails, singletrack, or just paved roads too potholed to Harley over. Harleys are irrelevant to me because they haven't built a real adventure bike in 100 years and just pump out cookie cutter trailer queens. My driveway is over a mile of steep dirt (or mud or snow), i couldn't even park one at home, i'd have to take my KLR to town to where i'd have to rent storage. They're just incapable, not only of making it up my own driveway, but the only place they can go is to the bar on the 2% of roads that are 'paved' (50-60 years ago lol) and i don't drink. It may as well be a Prius, but even the Prius can handle dirt better. I'd LOVE to own a homegrown all business American dualsport, enduro, or lightweight ADV that holds it's own against the imports, but all they've produced over the last century was expensive "ass jewelry" for narcissists and main character types. America is a country of open spaces and freedom, and their iconic motorcycle brand build the most closed off, restricted, and limiting machines possible, i can't even ride some of the paved roads in town without scraping floorboards and pipes. This is why Harley sucks, they're all hype and chrome, and that's what represents 'America' and 'Freedom'? FFS they can keep building the Dyna-look-at- the-chrome-clown models for these goobers and STILL offer a different model of rugged go anywhere do anything bike like all the imports do. Other companies have lines from cruisers to racing dirt bikes but they got basically one bike with a different tank, bars and fenders and act like the difference in chrome level matters. Their whole business model is built on using psychology to scam people with hype. When the DEI thing happened recently it hit them so hard because all they sell is an image and anyone can get a better bike for half the price from anywhere else. To me they're so entirely useless that it makes them beyond worthless, a liability, it would cost me more money to not be able to ride to any of the places i go to hike or camp, it can't even get me home reliably. I don't want to see them fail, i want to see them build REAL American functional working bikes to be used as rugged transportation tools for the REAL America instead of pandering a stereotype, a fake 'badass' image to coastal elites having a midlife crisis. Maybe if you tell them that freedom is having to have registration, insurance, a second mortgage, and the inability to ride down the sandy, washed out Old Ghost Town Trail Rd. with loud enough pipes they'll believe it. They're wannabe bikes for wannabe badasses while REAL 'badasses' are out riding some forest or desert trail or climbing a mountain entirely unaware that they're 'badass'. They used to be useful, capable, fun bikes. They used to make 50cc commuter bikes and 'dirt' bikes. Let's have that again instead of the one bike they make now. I DARE them to build a 400cc enduro/supermoto or a 600-700cc class tough as nails dualsport/rally machine and see if the silent majority starts ditching the KLR, DR and XTs for 'Murica.
I have a 2021 lowrider S and I love it, to me it seems hi tech, my last bike was a 750 Norton Commando (25 year gap). I think the new water cooled Harleys should be able to solve the low tech argument, but I wouldn't want one, and am afraid to ride one incase I like it. I'm old, stuck in my own old world, and don't like change. I do however think Harleys are too expensive and they should make 1 or 2 smaller cheaper, much lighter, models with the "traditional Harley style". I'm sure there are la lot of younger people out there who are attracted to the image but know it will be totally unaffordable for many years. Happy riding folks, and don't let the blue light shine on you.
They are not throw away bikes like most are. They last forever and can keep rebuilding them almost infinite unlike most other brands with a short shelf life
@@pa6793 … yeah but that has its pros. A friend of mine has an electra from the 70’s with over 500000km thanks to the fact they he can rebuild the engine every 150000 for way less than any new bike would cost. And that’s because they are so basic.
@ yes but the point I’m making is that we are talking new bikes and their crazy prices, I totally get the attraction of a simple to maintain machine and from the 70’s is ideal.
The company, it's culture and the lifestyle image that it tries to sell are outdated. The bikes are OK, not any better or worse than any other manufacturer to be fair.
@browngreen933 motorcycling should have nothing to do with politics. i don't like the road pirate, trailer your bike to Sturgis, 5 star hotel culture. I don't like the culture of the dealers who don't give you the time of day. Let's face it, harley has become a bike for the rich, not an everyday people bike.
@@butidonthaveaname6543 … dude, I agree with most of what you say, but that’s like saying I’d never buy an Audi coz I don’t like tailgating wa**ers (that’s the rep here). I’m not rich and I’ve used a Harley (2 of them) as my everyday vehicle for about 7 years. There’s a whole lot of both really cool people and idiots driving and riding pretty much anything.
@@elrumcajs777 Lots of what you say is true. That's why Zeitz is transforming HD with Woke culture and new technology. He wants to move HD away from its White male blue-collar origins into something new, diverse, high tech and exiting that younger people can identify with, while also tapping the older RUBs who trailer their bikes to Sturgis. HD is at a crossroads. I think we can agree that it's a big mess.
Many think it isn't high tech...until you get into the computer stuff involved on the bikes to get them them tuned and running for peak performance to match any engine upgrades you may have done...definitely not your grandfathers Harley. RDRS, throttle by wire, linked braking, ABS, bank angle sensors, traction control, high end stereo systems, navigation...pretty much everything you find in a new 2025 automobile. VCM, multitude of sensors, BCM...things I can't even remember off the top of my head..
Harley's have been historically primitive and THAT is what made them genuinely desired. Trying to keep up with the Joneses has ruined the product and the "Motor Company".
Agree on many points here, and believe you are wise to bring Triumph and Royal Enfield in the discussion. One area Harley critics seldom appreciate is the back to basics riding experience of many of their models. Simple and straightforward motorcycles seem to be making a comeback, at least for those not seeking a tourer.
Most of the world has known this for years. In my country only posers buy them. Saw a Harley rally once, the clowns had all the gear and the "bikes" arrived on trailers.
Been riding sense '78. Last April I rode the '02 RK fm Hou. to Eureka Springs Ark. and back without all fancy crap just fine. DON'T need all that unnecessary crap on yre handle bars. Hell, if I want to listen to my stereo, I'd stay home and crank it up! That's just my opinion for what's it's worth? Ride safe my brothers and sisters.🇺🇸😎
Harley did what their fans wanted. They kept making the same cruisers year after year. Every time they tried something new their fanboys would scream and whine and threaten to boycott Harley motorcycles. Now, with their customer base aging out of riding, they're stuck.
They’re not stuck, they still doing good as a company. They are coming around to it not thanks to Indian. They are still selling bikes and the young are still buying them. I’m one of them. On my 4th Harley since 2011 at the age of 34.
The young generally are not buying Harley's. They cannot afford a based model $15k otd, let alone $30k. Harley is a shit company coasting on brand recognition.
You are wrong and you comment screams you don’t have one or ever had one. Stupid comment to think there are no young people buying them. It sure isn’t the aging one’s keeping them afloat. I’m only 45 with my 4th new one. Ain’t no 20 something going to buy a new one but there are plenty of young men in their early 30’s and 40’s buying them like me. The next generation always replaces the previous even today. This economy is what is killing sales of everything right now.harley is still the number one selling motorcycle
NO, they lost their identity, tried to be like the rest, now they're lost, never to regain.. WHEN YOU SELL OUT YOUR LEGACY, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.. Basic shit, I've been riding since the 70s, I know wtf I'm talking about
I agree with that statement. I don’t want to much tech. I’ve owned 3 twin cams and they fail in comparison to my M8. My 117 stock is a monster and a hell of a lot of fun to ride compared to my slow twin cams.
I’ve been riding since the 60s and disagree entirely. Harley’s got its problems, many of which are beyond its direct control. American manufacturing is under extreme pressure across the board and Harley has made some missteps, no question, but they are innovating to adapt. Will they make it? I don’t know but sincerely hope so.
This is why I said that the Pan Am is the best bike they’ve ever made. The classic HD is still relevant though, however. I justI think they are really only relevant in three spheres, the wrenching community, the stunting community, and the long haul touring community, although I would say there’s far better premium touring bikes.
@ for sure! 😂 But it’s still the best Harley in terms of features, performance, and price point for what you get. Also, I think it looks FAR more stylish than the typical flagship ADV touring bike
I love my Harley 2008 FLSTC. Sounds great, dependable, a pleasure to ride. I don't care what lables other people put on it, it's my ride and I love it.
No, they're not. Harley doesn't have a "tech" problem. Harley has a price and affordability problem. Also, the buying process at their dealers is very very deceiving. Also, they need to be transparent and post out the door prices on all their bikes on their websites. This isn't complicated.
This all began with the first fairings appearing and selling to the comfort seekers. Comfort seeking on a motorcycle is contradictory to the discomfort required for the full and safe therapeutic purpose and experience of riding a motorcycle regardless if it is a one mile trip to a grocery store or a three thousand mile day and night trip from Seattle to Miami. The lasting joys of riding is in the discomfort. It's what keeps us wanting more. Our brains and neural functions improve in the same way a sumo wrestler learns and adapts to keep from getting knocked out of the ring. The weight and geometry of the Harley Davidson touring chassis without a fairing is the kind of do it all bike for me. But it's hard to top the thrills of a five year old stealing a Vespa for his first ride...
@@jamessouthworth1699 … you’re missing the point mate. You’re basically saying that classic should be cheap coz it’s worse. It might not be your taste. But that doesn’t mean it’s something negative.
@@jamessouthworth1699 … it’s my taste too. But I don’t see the “less”. Classic bikes have more expensive materials. That’s why cruisers with big engines are “expensive” no matter the brand.
That is true. But you definitely have to have both for those who want the latest and greatest. I prefer the older. I’m glad I bought my 23 Roadglide-ST before these new ones came out
@Prometheus1979 Young people aren't buying HD. The Revmax engine is not made in America. New ceo destroyed HD and pissed off the core customer base. HD died in 2018 when they hired the current ceo. I'll stick with my 03. Rip HD 1903-2018.
That’s a stupid comment to say young people aren’t buying them. Every bike sold is not by some old guy. There are young people buying them too. I’m only 45 with a new one and younger then my are buying them. The older people have slowed down on buying and the next generation is replacing them.
@@Prometheus1979 … you’re half right mate. They do like them, but it’s never been so hard for them to get a roof on their heads, so not many have the cash. Way less than let’s say 10-20 years ago. But you have a good point, contrary to what many people repeat like parrots, a whole lot of young people love Harleys and classics bikes.
I’ve recently bought a new sport glide here in uk and love it , (Harley rider for 20 years), but H/D has sat back and are now paying the price as the competition has caught up with good quality and reliable bikes. Interesting times ahead.
No one complains about the tech until it breaks. They know most of that tech will save them from a crash or make day to day riding much easier. If you want little to no tech, I think Royal Enfield probably has the most low tech bikes.
Growing up, all I ever heard about Harley is that they leak oil and are unreliable. Today all I hear is that they have serious mechanical issues and the dealers treat their customers like dirt. Perhaps instead of stock buy-backs and bonuses for Harley executives, some of that money should be invested in improving the customer experience? As of now, I will NEVER buy a Harley.
I think one of the main things people mention, is Indian’s v twin that’s the same size as the Harley engine, makes about 40% more power. Harley has a lot of tech, but you have to spend a lot in the aftermarket to usually get the bike you want. A lot of Indians are a bit more expensive, but come stock with a lot of that stuff. I like both, I’ve ridden both. But it’s not just the “tech” they’re saying is outdated. The style, design, and engines is what they usually are talking about. And any time Harley makes an update to try and keep up with other manufacturers, Harley owners scream and howl that the new bikes aren’t like the Harleys from 1930 anymore. It’s a lose lose for them.
I just bought a new stage 4 low rider s with a bassani road rage exhaust, it’s a fucken amazing bike and sounds incredible. I almost can’t believe the sound that comes out of it, sounds like the most badass hotrod I’ve ever heard. It sure cost a lot but I’m bloody happy with it!
The chassis isn't really high tech. The brakes are perfectly fine but not state of the art. The forks are again fine but not Showa's best. The engines have seen a lot of development. Not everyone likes that though.
Harley Davidsons are irrelevant these days because no-one can afford them until they retire, so young people have forgotton what the Harley brand is all about. Guess what, those youngsters are riding Hondas, Triumphs or whatever. Anything but a Harley-Davidson! When the youngsters of today are finally able to afford a new Harley, they probably just won't because Harley have not cultivated their brand to attract new customers. That's also assuming that Harley don't go bankrupt. (Yet again). When will Harley wake up? It's nothing to with 'tech' or pointless 'riding modes'. My riding mode is in my brain. It's about making bikes to appeal to potential future customers, something cool and sporty. Just like, guess what? The Sportster! Then people graduate onto the bigger bikes. That's business. It's so frustrating. Harley, import the Indian-made X440 to the UK, you'll sell loads! Even though it's a bit crap, people might just go for the name! Harley-Davidson, please something cheaper and more appealing made in Thailand alongside your other manufacturing facilities over there! I don't know, but carrying on like nothing's changed in forty years, is not an option. Look at what Triumph, Honda, Royal Enfield, CF Moto, Benelli and the rest of the industry are doing. Do Harley want to make bikes and make money or is this persistence in making such a narrowly focussed product just a bit of 'all-American' pride and bravado? I'm not sure. I might buy a Tee shirt. At least that would be affordable. And useful. Love and peace.
Hello from Texas. I would like to own a Heritage Classic but my Rocket 3 GT has spoiled me. I like all the tech, hill break, quick shifter, heated grips, ABS and cornering ABS, cruise control, etc. And the bike has character unlike the Valkyrie I used to have. If I bought the Harley I would probably not ride it much.
I have Traction control, rider modes Rain, Street, and sport, and ABS on my Triumph. The TC saved my a$$$ last year early season. I don’t think this is too much tech for a street bike. Been riding since 1982. I think Harley’s main problems are Price, weight, and leadership of the Brand. I would also say entry level motorcycles. I have been very disappointed in the non production of the highly anticipated Bronx and a smaller (975) Pan America.
The whole point of a Harley Davidson is to be "Outdated" . . . Some call it "Classic" or "Retro" . . Without those characteristics they don't exist . . or will need to put "Honda" on the gas tanks . . .
It belongs in America... Worldwide Harleys are not relevant, but in the USA, nothing is as relevant to motorcycling as a Harley Davidson. That means nationalism still exists. Inherently
All of Harleys history they out source more than in house R&D back in the 70's they tried a go at an inline 4 but ended up scrapping the project. When dirt bikes were the buzz they slapped their logo on Aermacchi's . Not to long ago history repeated itself with the next generation Italian bikes. Time for Willie G. to sell to India and China in a way he already has.
People who say these things don't understand why there are some cars that are old-fashioned, unreliable, and uncomfortable, but people LOVE them anyway. Even some of the people who love such anachronistic cars, may make such a statement about motorcycles, but in my experience they're less likely to. Affection for any vehicle, motorcycle or car, is a subjective thing most of the time. What the hell does 'relevant' mean anyway? Anyone who asks this question with the word relevant in it is just weird. A bike or a car is a means of transport. They perform that function. Some do it better than others, some may be absolutely hopeless at it, but the word relevant is out of place here. In a conversation about bikes or cars, it's; IRRELEVANT.
I just had a long conversation with a long-term H-D owner in a bar last night, about this very question. He claims that, with proper suspension set-ups, he can really make his Bagger handle. I have seen this occasionally, (got smoked once by one on a twisty road, he was crazy). But my man says H-D's biggest problem is TOO MANY CLEAN BIKES ON THE USED MARKET. A Bazillion middle-life-crisis duffers (in the US, anyway), bought Harleys in the past 10-20 years.. hardly rode them, and now you can get them for a song. HE just bought a 2021 bagger for cheap, Mint condition.
Gday Rev, another good vid. There not outdated but just appeal to a specific genre of riders. The riders that want to join outlaw clubs or cruiser mandated clubs will still ride and buy them. They are just becoming more niche. The tech is fine. For many years people claimed HD weren’t moving with the times, now they say they’ve gone too far. If you want old school, get a evo or twin cam, if you want tech, get an M8. There will always be a market for them, even if the numbers are reducing.
Harleys are not for me. I don't particularly care for them, nor do I want to own one. I love my old Japanese bikes. But I love that you can go out and buy a classic, stripped down machine is a blessing. Just like Honda still blessing us with carbs on the XR650 for the time being. I'll take something stripped down and easy to work on over an overcomplicated mess any day. People get too caught up in wanting new shit for no reason. If you do, there are other bikes out there. No need to ruin a good thing.
Not Motor Company specific: I ask if the tech fits the bike's reason for being in the stable, or what is the bike's mission? If I need a sensor to tell me my front tire is about to do a "tuck-n-flop," then, at least for this pleasure rider, I'm riding too close to 10/10ths. . In the garage, I do like having a chance at my own services when I don't need special tools (electronic, or other) to keep things running. The choice of adequate tech is part of "riding your own ride."
Nice bit of clickbait there Alf. My 2023 Sport Glide is a huge advancement over the old softails in both handling and performance but even the older twin cams using the Delphi ecu offer so much more access to tuning constants than almost any other brand available. That is useful Tech that even an old boomer like me can use.
Stupid? Thanks for the civil conversation. Fact: MOST young people aren't buying HD, sales are down drastically in the US. Try and play nice with others, like you're mother taught you. Riding over 50 years and still going strong.
Harley Davidsons suffer from being too techy and too old all at the same time. There are many Harley’s with more tech than my 2020 Suzuki has, I mean you can get Harley’s with an infotainment system on it, but that’s not what I’m asking for from Harley. I don’t want a 40000 dollar road sofa with an engine that’s still pumping push rods around. We’re not saying the V twin is outdated, just that certain Harley power plants are. I can’t pin this blame to Harley either, I have to pin it to the Harley rider. Harley had a big bore liquid cooled engine in a cruiser 20 years ago in the V-rod but it was largely ostracized by the Harley community because it was a liquid cooled engine. So Harley listened to its audience and it took them almost 15 more years and significant financial trouble before they flew in the face of the Harley bros and built a modern V twin. And now Harley is damaging itself even more with Johan Zeitz strategy of selling less Harley’s for more money. My generation needs cheaper motorcycles, yet Harley has forsaken us. They have actively axed the cheaper bikes and are now charging more for bikes that aren’t offering more. Harley has forsaken their blue collar roots to try and become a white collar brand. It would seem that Harley Davidson and their baby boomer buyers have forgotten where they came from and damned the next generation of riders. But that’s just a 27 yr old motorcycle enthusiasts opinion.
I've ridden a Hartley, but would never buy one. Just not my style. They should reach out more, Ducati used to be known for sports bikes but they expanded their catalogue. Harley should do something similar. I like bikes without all the tech, my next bike will be much simpler.
I really, really tried to love Harley. I’m into the history, the culture, the simple, very mechanical machines… I love everything about the idea of them. I’ve also owned three different brand new Harleys in the past three years, trying to find one I can live with. Compared to my other motorcycles, all of them had low build quality, poor handling and brakes, absurdly low power, were far more expensive, and were uncomfortable despite me trying lots of aftermarket seats, bars, risers etc. I now think Harleys are pieces of crap trading on nostalgia - that’s all they got. It’s great if you love Harleys - I’m all for it and I hope you have a great time in the road. But for me after putting over 20k miles on three new ones, I think they’re awful.
Harleys hard core customers have slowly strangled the very company they claim to love by demanding Harley keep on producing the same old bikes year after year. The sight of owners destroying their own bikes simply because Harley “dare” introduce diversity training just illustrates how difficult a company it will be to turn around.
The same old bikes? If Harley decided to look like everything else then what’s the point of buying an expensive Harley? DEI is not properly implemented by companies. It’s a form of racism that excludes white people. That has been proven numerous times.
I own a 1974 XLCH 1000 Sportster rigid frame kick start only chopper, a 1979 FLH stripped of all the bagger garbage, and a 1993 FXD-WG all bare bones no tech or windshields if I want that I'll get in my truck. I've been riding since i was 15 I am now 60. I thought the whole point of a bike is simplicity, it is for me at least. Everyone has different tastes, and it would be a boring world if we were all the same, for me there is nothing like the sound if a Harley just as the sound of all the 60's/70's muscle cars I own/owned plus the ability to work on them myself.
Re: TOO MUCH TECH. As with cars, the Mfrs. are forcing excessive BLING into the machines. I own a high-tuned 1999 Bandit 1200S; it has four carbs (easy to clean and set) and ONE ECU. Zero sensors. When something goes wrong (rarely), I immediately know what it is.. and can FIX it. PS- it RIPS.
They are not outdated, and are still relevant. The problem is the Harley Tax. Is the bike worth the extra price? I feel they are getting to a place were then need to justify why choose a Harley.
Anyone who states, with a straight fsce, that Harleys are irrelevant aught to say that in front of the several million loyal Harley riders. Truly misinformed statement. Every vehicle these days is a computer on wheels, and many of them have severely unreliable electronics and engines. While the sad propogandanists attempt to sway the ignorant from Harley-Davidson, the MoCo will still outlive us all. Personally I have ridden over a million miles on Harleys over the past six decades, never owned a new one, mostly choppers with a few stockers in the play, my '08 Heritage works hard every day here in South Africa, all she ever needs is tyres, spark plugs, filters, oil and occasionally a new battery at just under 100,000.
Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices. That is how we like it. Stop with the navigation systems, audio systems, Anti lock Braking is all gadgetry we do not want ,,or need .
I don't want modern tech on a motorcycle. Well, I don't want a Harley Davidson either. They are too heavy, too expensive and too clumsy for my liking. The only Harley I would find somewhat acceptable are the Sportster Iron 883, but I don't think it is current any more. I ride a 25 year old V-twin Suzuki 800 with a bare minimum of tech. Should I buy a new bike I would certainly look for something with as little "modern" crap as possible, but still no Harley Davidson.
You nail it good missing in this mix the bikes have issue's in most of the time are left for customer to find out and the dance One does to get it all sorted out ! After all the basic Harley been around for well over 60 years that said we cannot believe Harley doesn't know how to kick the shit out their bikes on there own lot to sort the crap not done ? And why is that ? No growth in market for Harleys if no parts and installation not coming around.yup not bad racket for 30 thousand +++++. Sad as it is isn't it.just saying the sad.
F the technology. By the sound of your recent vids, I can tell you're not too thrilled with your HD. I have a '23 Low Rider S and a new gsxs1000gt sitting next to one another in the garage. I love looking at and riding the LRS. The verdict still isn't in on the Suzuki. A plain jane Z900 sits in the house and a 3rd gen DL650 is in here too. None of them are considered hi tech and that's why I bought them. Had a GS1200 loaded with BS tech that left me stranded more than once. Don't need 6 axis imu and all the rest of it. I'll say it once more, dig the HD and it will be one of the last that I sell.
Harley’s are in the unique position of having Hollywood term motorbike as being a Harley … plain n simple .. say to anyone who doesn’t have a clue about bikes ‘I ride a Harley ‘ and they seethe image ( not the reality of an overweight American who couldn’t even get on a sportsbike never mind ride it 😂😂😂😂) But this image has kept them going forever , far from being ‘the best bike’ they demand high prices with the American dream ( but we will overlook them sourcing abroad) and now people are starting to question many things , the younger generation aren’t interested in bikes … a whole slew of issues but then what business today doesn’t face problems , governments make people poorer and therefore less cash in the household to waste on toys … and Harley are possibly the most expensive toy of all
@elrumcajs777 Nothing. Problem HD has is not all of us want an 800 pound bike. The old Evo Sporties were great town bikes with a great look. HD got rid of these and replaced them with models that don't sell.
@@garyshoaf5699 In 1995 I had a Shadow 750. Great bike did everything I needed. Even a Scout is a lightweight with decent specs. But each to their own. I'd never spend $39 or $40 K on a bike. In my case I'd help the kids and still happy with a used bikes.
@@garyshoaf5699 In 1995 I had a Shadow 750. Great bike did everything I needed. Even a Scout is a lightweight with decent specs. But each to their own. I'd never spend $39 or $40 K on a bike. In my case I'd help the kids and still happy with a used bike. And these days just a commuter so an used Evo sporty will do fine.
On the contrary. Newer Harley Davidsons are nothing but ipads on wheels. Computerized GARBAGE. They need to go back about 30 years in technology to be relevant. I have a 1989 FXRS Low Rider and a 2002 Sportster 1200C and love them. I would NEVER consider buying a Harley Davidson newer than 2006, when computers took over.
never been a harley fan but rode the new sporster s ,wow,no intension to buy $7000 off new price last years model irresistible ,dealer told me harley clearing all stock for new models the sporster s ,almost identical to my agusta brutale 800 same lineal power same sound ,did not buy for the tech,I think the sporster s and nighster they lightweight powerfully different from traditional harleys are far superior to competitors,also own a late model t100
Ducati has terrible reliability issues, cost a lot more than a Harley. Ducati dealers are far and few between. Service, parts and repairs are EXPENSIVE. Service and repairs are also expensive on Jap and other European bikes.
I'm probably old and outdated too, maybe that's why I appreciate simplicity. Things I understand and can work on myself. I don't like all the electronics on everything.
Hi Alf. Your headline ref Harley 's being outdated and irrelevant is a headline that could have been written about Harley 50 years ago when Honda introduced the 750/4. They refuse to divest themselves from the outdated v twin format of so long ago and instead rely on making the design cope with ever larger displacement and ever higher prices, neither of which are appropriate for motorcycles where less weight and cheaper transport are key drivers of a two wheeled machine.
Not everyone wants or need a laptop on their handlebars. Harley is keeping it simple and authentic, it's more like a old school muscle car. Think roaring big block engine like Mustang, Camaro, Trans Am, GTO, Charger, Challenger, Chevelle or Cuda, keep it simple and effin' awesome like a Harley!
If it was "simple and authentic", they would cost $5000.
@ premium products comes with a price tag if you can't afford it buy a chinese bike.
@@niallk9336 great point! I'd love a HD. My bank account says: NO
@@Nils_Martin Nothing "premium" about Harley Davidson. New ones are absolute TRASH.
Keep saving dude and soon you'll have ya self a HD, live the dream man @@jamesdspaderf2883
Harley-Davidsons are so outdated that when the Pan America was released, BMW scrambled to copy the Pan Am's Electronic Suspension with Automatic Ride Height feature🙄Look, H-D's new baggers are loaded with tech now, which also contributes to the high prices. As a Pan Am owner, if H-D came out with a lighter weight (around 450-480 lbs) 975 "Continental" ADV with a decent suspension (non-electronic), cheap ABS & low-grade traction control (in some places they're required by law, I could live without the TC though), and cruise control I'd trade in my 1250 that day. I don't need 12 axis IMUs, radar, or 1000s of sensors.
At this point, I think ALL manufacturers are just tossing needless stuff on bikes to justify their insane pricing schemes.
I don't need all the tech i love my 2 harleys
I agree with that purpose, I own a 2024 RKS after 4 others M8, 1 TC and 2 evo's, and I think techonology and performance have gone too far.
Harley Davidson for me is about freedom and sensations, cruising at low revs, I don't need all that stuf, I prefere riding a simple and authentic bike and I think I will go back to a 2002 carb Road King or an evo...
Greetings from France...
It would be nice to have the rider safety aids available as a package option. So those who want it can have it and those who don't can choose not to have them.
The engine and retro style is the best part of a harley.
Call them outdated, but the lack of electronic junk is a positive for me. I just want a big engine and 2 wheels.
Definitely a positive. All the electronics on the bikes are just distractions.
Harley's are covered in electronic junk. They just have shit engines and shit suspension for 2* the price.
Shit engines? They are not throw away bikes like most brands. You can rebuild a Harley almost infinite. I love the Harley motor and part of the reason I own them like of us do. Go buy your throw away motors
@@logangodofcandy Spoken like one of those guys that likely never sat on, let alone rode a harley.
They're full of tech unless you mean a 20 year old one.
Bike moves forward the lights work what more tech do you need
I have a low rider s..
I don't want hi tech as loads to go wrong. I also have a bmw R1250GS it's always going back to bmw with bike sos warninglight abs light on all the time, sat nav not working, no tft screen, fuel cap won't open as its keyless... that's all in the last year ... I love lRS117 as it has none of these. I get on and ride 😎
My low rider ST has everything short of the riding modes.
Fortunately the softail models were spared the weight (and cost) of the stereo systems and large LCD displays.
Hear, hear.
@@chrislecouteur2360 2024 Low Rider S here. Similar experience with BMWs, too. Love the simplicity and quality of everything. Some may think it over-priced, but I can see what I’m getting. All the best.
@@chrislecouteur2360 I have a 2020 114 with over 80000km. Been my main vehicle from March to December for 5 years and still enjoy it as much as the first day.
Harley has its issues but being “outdated” ain’t one of them IMO. I think tech is simply overrated these days. If something is not loaded with tech, it’s irrelevant or too expensive, but it’s a bit of bs to some degree. I watched a video a couple of days ago where the dude made some analogies about it and it made perfect sense. Why do people picnic if we have comfortable tables at home? Why do we grill sausages on a bonfire, if we have ovens? Etc.… we still do those things from time to time and nobody wanders why.
They cost twice the price for the same performance. You're clearly missing that
@@logangodofcandy Performance?
Haha, a great bunch of detractors and haters, who supposedly own "better" and state-of-the-art motorcycles that have gazillions of horses... lack the skills to squeeze each and every horsepower of their galactic two wheeled computers.
Performance?
Public roads have speed limits for a reason.
Performance?
The great majority of those like you're breed have NEVER gone to set a foot on a race track.
Performance?
For daily use on public roads, the estimated enough horsepower is 40. To use those gazillion HP, which in the first place means rolling in full length the throttle (in case you don't know, horsepower is not a fix number; it depends on RPM and torque), which it is certain you and your breed don't have the chance to exploit on public roads, unless you're irresponsible and reckless.
Let's talk about performance on an enclosed circuit. For daily use, it is of no use. You've been brainwashed.
@@logangodofcandy… nope, I did say they have some (other) issues, but I’m talking about being “outdated”. But even that it’s not exactly as you say IMO. A Low Rider S, a Sport Chief and an R18 cost roughly the same where I live. The HD is the only one without riding modes, but that’s pretty much it. Everything else is very similar. Tech and performance wise that is.
Its why I love my Harleys. Don't want tech on my Harley. Just wish they would lower the prices. I own other bikes, and they have a purpose. But no other bike makes me feel like I do like my Harley.
Bikes, in general, have been good for the past 50+ years, if you're a discerning buyer. How much more do we need? Lighter this, more powerful that, blah, blah, blah. I get the virtue of ABS brakes, but after that, what else do you need? If the bike's that powerful that you need traction control and wheelie control and fifteen different "rider" modes, buy a bike that doesn't need all of that. Any bike that will get up to 70 or 80 in a reasonable amount of time, cruise at that speed, stop and corner with a reasonable degree of confidence is enough for 99% of riders that I know.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 … totally right! Too many people talking about performance like if they were Rossi 😂
See your point, but last sentence "enough for 99% of riders" yet HD's are among the most expensive. Price should reflect the "enough offerings" IMO. I enjoy my 09 Ultra and 87 FLHS, both over 100k mi. Like tech, but too many videos' of 2024 models left stranded due to new tech.
@@elrumcajs777 If you like to channel your inner Valentino in a "safe" off road environment then fair enough, ignore everything that I stated. But for riding to work, going to get the bread and milk on, going for a blast a few towns over... whatever, get a grip on yourself. I wonder what demands the great man himself would put on a bike to do such a job?
@@larryj8924 Well, this is the other thing, isn't it. "Tech" adds cost, and it reduces reliability. On my planet, it's star date 2024 and cost and reliability are still valued by many of my species. I have a Kawasaki W800. Despite its fuel injection (which I don't mind), its "just" a bike. No bells, no whistles, check the tyre pressure yourself, check the chain, the oil, the fuel, turn the key and press the button.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 … exactly
I have owned many bikes. I have a 23' fltrxst 117 and enjoy the simple durable aircooled engine.
The lack of innovation in harleys is a feature, not a bug.
They are objectively the worst bikes in their class and cost more than the competition
You comment sounds like you can’t afford one
@@logangodofcandy I've had 28 motorcycles... my 1200 sportster is my favorite.
@@Prometheus1979 … if he can’t afford one, then he can’t afford the competition neither cuz I don’t see a significant price difference that would make or break a deal.
@@Prometheus1979 YES! And that’s not something to be proud of! Younger Americans are having a tougher time affording things like motorcycles and white collar ceos like zeitz making fewer bikes for higher prices will damn the brand in the eyes of the young masses. It may not put them down in the long term but it will bury this notion of Harley’s being for a blue collar audience. Only Dentists and Doctors can afford a Road King.
Harley’s are not a throwback motorcycle because there touring bikes were designed for motor cops that need the lean angle and ability to install equipment on. It’s just most people do not know how to ride them properly to take advantage of how they perform.
The majority of motorcycles I see on the US highways are HD's. I see a lot of younger people riding them too. When I say younger, I don't mean kids on crotch rockets wearing power ranger suits. I see an increasing number of people in their late 20's and 30's riding them. Expensive? hell yeah they're expensive. Ever price a Goldwing, or BMW? They're expensive too. Even Ducati's are expensive. How bout a $60k MV Agusta? or the 2025 Yamaha R1M at $28k ?
People like them because they have Soul. Other motorcycle companies try and copy the look and feel, but have no soul.
@@CaptainRon1913 … nailed it man! 👍🏻
Some Harley Davidson touring models have so much ( hidden ) technology, even the owners don't now. So many riders haven't even heard of the fact they have a Parade mode on their bike to switch off the rear cylinder, so it works like a airpump to cool down the oil. Once moving the bike again the rear cylinder will fire up again, and your're back on two cylinders.
On some models the oil pump spray oil against the underside of the pistons to cool them down.
Some Harley riders don't even now they have rear air suspension on their bike.
F Parade participation.
Putting all the tech in the world on it would only make it worse lol.
I used to ride a Road King, there's one good road to ride nearby, or there's endless amounts of dirt roads, jeep trails, singletrack, or just paved roads too potholed to Harley over.
Harleys are irrelevant to me because they haven't built a real adventure bike in 100 years and just pump out cookie cutter trailer queens. My driveway is over a mile of steep dirt (or mud or snow), i couldn't even park one at home, i'd have to take my KLR to town to where i'd have to rent storage. They're just incapable, not only of making it up my own driveway, but the only place they can go is to the bar on the 2% of roads that are 'paved' (50-60 years ago lol) and i don't drink. It may as well be a Prius, but even the Prius can handle dirt better.
I'd LOVE to own a homegrown all business American dualsport, enduro, or lightweight ADV that holds it's own against the imports, but all they've produced over the last century was expensive "ass jewelry" for narcissists and main character types. America is a country of open spaces and freedom, and their iconic motorcycle brand build the most closed off, restricted, and limiting machines possible, i can't even ride some of the paved roads in town without scraping floorboards and pipes. This is why Harley sucks, they're all hype and chrome, and that's what represents 'America' and 'Freedom'? FFS they can keep building the Dyna-look-at- the-chrome-clown models for these goobers and STILL offer a different model of rugged go anywhere do anything bike like all the imports do. Other companies have lines from cruisers to racing dirt bikes but they got basically one bike with a different tank, bars and fenders and act like the difference in chrome level matters. Their whole business model is built on using psychology to scam people with hype. When the DEI thing happened recently it hit them so hard because all they sell is an image and anyone can get a better bike for half the price from anywhere else.
To me they're so entirely useless that it makes them beyond worthless, a liability, it would cost me more money to not be able to ride to any of the places i go to hike or camp, it can't even get me home reliably.
I don't want to see them fail, i want to see them build REAL American functional working bikes to be used as rugged transportation tools for the REAL America instead of pandering a stereotype, a fake 'badass' image to coastal elites having a midlife crisis. Maybe if you tell them that freedom is having to have registration, insurance, a second mortgage, and the inability to ride down the sandy, washed out Old Ghost Town Trail Rd. with loud enough pipes they'll believe it. They're wannabe bikes for wannabe badasses while REAL 'badasses' are out riding some forest or desert trail or climbing a mountain entirely unaware that they're 'badass'.
They used to be useful, capable, fun bikes. They used to make 50cc commuter bikes and 'dirt' bikes. Let's have that again instead of the one bike they make now. I DARE them to build a 400cc enduro/supermoto or a 600-700cc class tough as nails dualsport/rally machine and see if the silent majority starts ditching the KLR, DR and XTs for 'Murica.
I have a 2021 lowrider S and I love it, to me it seems hi tech, my last bike was a 750 Norton Commando (25 year gap). I think the new water cooled Harleys should be able to solve the low tech argument, but I wouldn't want one, and am afraid to ride one incase I like it. I'm old, stuck in my own old world, and don't like change. I do however think Harleys are too expensive and they should make 1 or 2 smaller cheaper, much lighter, models with the "traditional Harley style". I'm sure there are la lot of younger people out there who are attracted to the image but know it will be totally unaffordable for many years.
Happy riding folks, and don't let the blue light shine on you.
The air cooled pushrod engine will be an attraction for some but you are paying a hell of a price for basic engine, frame and suspension tech.
They are not throw away bikes like most are. They last forever and can keep rebuilding them almost infinite unlike most other brands with a short shelf life
@@pa6793 … yeah but that has its pros. A friend of mine has an electra from the 70’s with over 500000km thanks to the fact they he can rebuild the engine every 150000 for way less than any new bike would cost. And that’s because they are so basic.
@ yes but the point I’m making is that we are talking new bikes and their crazy prices, I totally get the attraction of a simple to maintain machine and from the 70’s is ideal.
The company, it's culture and the lifestyle image that it tries to sell are outdated. The bikes are OK, not any better or worse than any other manufacturer to be fair.
You don't like Woke culture? 😅
@browngreen933 motorcycling should have nothing to do with politics. i don't like the road pirate, trailer your bike to Sturgis, 5 star hotel culture. I don't like the culture of the dealers who don't give you the time of day. Let's face it, harley has become a bike for the rich, not an everyday people bike.
@@butidonthaveaname6543 … dude, I agree with most of what you say, but that’s like saying I’d never buy an Audi coz I don’t like tailgating wa**ers (that’s the rep here). I’m not rich and I’ve used a Harley (2 of them) as my everyday vehicle for about 7 years. There’s a whole lot of both really cool people and idiots driving and riding pretty much anything.
@@browngreen933 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@elrumcajs777 Lots of what you say is true. That's why Zeitz is transforming HD with Woke culture and new technology. He wants to move HD away from its White male blue-collar origins into something new, diverse, high tech and exiting that younger people can identify with, while also tapping the older RUBs who trailer their bikes to Sturgis. HD is at a crossroads. I think we can agree that it's a big mess.
Many think it isn't high tech...until you get into the computer stuff involved on the bikes to get them them tuned and running for peak performance to match any engine upgrades you may have done...definitely not your grandfathers Harley. RDRS, throttle by wire, linked braking, ABS, bank angle sensors, traction control, high end stereo systems, navigation...pretty much everything you find in a new 2025 automobile. VCM, multitude of sensors, BCM...things I can't even remember off the top of my head..
Harley's have been historically primitive and THAT is what made them genuinely desired. Trying to keep up with the Joneses has ruined the product and the "Motor Company".
Agree on many points here, and believe you are wise to bring Triumph and Royal Enfield in the discussion. One area Harley critics seldom appreciate is the back to basics riding experience of many of their models. Simple and straightforward motorcycles seem to be making a comeback, at least for those not seeking a tourer.
Most of the world has known this for years. In my country only posers buy them. Saw a Harley rally once, the clowns had all the gear and the "bikes" arrived on trailers.
Been riding sense '78. Last April I rode the '02 RK fm Hou. to Eureka Springs Ark. and back without all fancy crap just fine. DON'T need all that unnecessary crap on yre handle bars. Hell, if I want to listen to my stereo, I'd stay home and crank it up! That's just my opinion for what's it's worth? Ride safe my brothers and sisters.🇺🇸😎
Harley did what their fans wanted. They kept making the same cruisers year after year. Every time they tried something new their fanboys would scream and whine and threaten to boycott Harley motorcycles. Now, with their customer base aging out of riding, they're stuck.
They’re not stuck, they still doing good as a company. They are coming around to it not thanks to Indian. They are still selling bikes and the young are still buying them. I’m one of them. On my 4th Harley since 2011 at the age of 34.
The young generally are not buying Harley's. They cannot afford a based model $15k otd, let alone $30k. Harley is a shit company coasting on brand recognition.
You are wrong and you comment screams you don’t have one or ever had one. Stupid comment to think there are no young people buying them. It sure isn’t the aging one’s keeping them afloat. I’m only 45 with my 4th new one. Ain’t no 20 something going to buy a new one but there are plenty of young men in their early 30’s and 40’s buying them like me. The next generation always replaces the previous even today. This economy is what is killing sales of everything right now.harley is still the number one selling motorcycle
NO, they lost their identity, tried to be like the rest, now they're lost, never to regain..
WHEN YOU SELL OUT YOUR LEGACY, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS..
Basic shit, I've been riding since the 70s, I know wtf I'm talking about
I agree with that statement. I don’t want to much tech. I’ve owned 3 twin cams and they fail in comparison to my M8. My 117 stock is a monster and a hell of a lot of fun to ride compared to my slow twin cams.
100% agreed. F Jochen.
I’ve been riding since the 60s and disagree entirely. Harley’s got its problems, many of which are beyond its direct control. American manufacturing is under extreme pressure across the board and Harley has made some missteps, no question, but they are innovating to adapt. Will they make it? I don’t know but sincerely hope so.
Harley is clothing company that sells motorcycles as accessories.
This is why I said that the Pan Am is the best bike they’ve ever made.
The classic HD is still relevant though, however. I justI think they are really only relevant in three spheres, the wrenching community, the stunting community, and the long haul touring community, although I would say there’s far better premium touring bikes.
Pan Am. 😅
Compared to any other ADV, it's a turd.
@ for sure! 😂 But it’s still the best Harley in terms of features, performance, and price point for what you get. Also, I think it looks FAR more stylish than the typical flagship ADV touring bike
The Pan Am... A Road Glide and a Buell Ulysses had a very ugly baby. It'll be extinct like the Buell soon.
@@markjacobs3956to each his own. Ride safe on whatever bike you like homie
I love my Harley 2008 FLSTC. Sounds great, dependable, a pleasure to ride. I don't care what lables other people put on it, it's my ride and I love it.
"Why buy a brand new HD when it's the same as a 15 years old second hand one ?"
I think that's most people means when they said HD is outdated.
@@artvertex4152 … nope. It’s not the same.
No, they're not. Harley doesn't have a "tech" problem. Harley has a price and affordability problem. Also, the buying process at their dealers is very very deceiving. Also, they need to be transparent and post out the door prices on all their bikes on their websites. This isn't complicated.
This all began with the first fairings appearing and selling to the comfort seekers. Comfort seeking on a motorcycle is contradictory to the discomfort required for the full and safe therapeutic purpose and experience of riding a motorcycle regardless if it is a one mile trip to a grocery store or a three thousand mile day and night trip from Seattle to Miami. The lasting joys of riding is in the discomfort. It's what keeps us wanting more. Our brains and neural functions improve in the same way a sumo wrestler learns and adapts to keep from getting knocked out of the ring. The weight and geometry of the Harley Davidson touring chassis without a fairing is the kind of do it all bike for me. But it's hard to top the thrills of a five year old stealing a Vespa for his first ride...
I don’t think it’s the tec or style, it’s the size & weight!
Have you checked out the size, weight and price of a Honda Goldwing lately?
I'm okay with a classic design as long as they're not pricing it like it's the latest and greatest.
@@jamessouthworth1699 … you’re missing the point mate. You’re basically saying that classic should be cheap coz it’s worse. It might not be your taste. But that doesn’t mean it’s something negative.
@elrumcajs777 Classic IS my taste. Paying more for less is not.
@@jamessouthworth1699 … it’s my taste too. But I don’t see the “less”. Classic bikes have more expensive materials. That’s why cruisers with big engines are “expensive” no matter the brand.
Total bs. New Harleys suck. Lots of plastic and cheap parts. Keep Harleys old school. No computers or modes needed.
That is true. But you definitely have to have both for those who want the latest and greatest. I prefer the older. I’m glad I bought my 23 Roadglide-ST before these new ones came out
@Prometheus1979 Young people aren't buying HD. The Revmax engine is not made in America. New ceo destroyed HD and pissed off the core customer base. HD died in 2018 when they hired the current ceo. I'll stick with my 03. Rip HD 1903-2018.
That’s a stupid comment to say young people aren’t buying them. Every bike sold is not by some old guy. There are young people buying them too. I’m only 45 with a new one and younger then my are buying them. The older people have slowed down on buying and the next generation is replacing them.
@@Prometheus1979 … you’re half right mate. They do like them, but it’s never been so hard for them to get a roof on their heads, so not many have the cash. Way less than let’s say 10-20 years ago. But you have a good point, contrary to what many people repeat like parrots, a whole lot of young people love Harleys and classics bikes.
You can't charge these insane prices for 80 year old technology. Cosplay is all it is.
You don't know what you're talking about. Harley has become too high-tec.
I’ve recently bought a new sport glide here in uk and love it , (Harley rider for 20 years), but H/D has sat back and are now paying the price as the competition has caught up with good quality and reliable bikes. Interesting times ahead.
No one complains about the tech until it breaks. They know most of that tech will save them from a crash or make day to day riding much easier.
If you want little to no tech, I think Royal Enfield probably has the most low tech bikes.
The only people who say that have no clue what they are talking about and have not ridden a modern Harley. Their ignorance is showing.
Not outdated but maybe overpriced
Growing up, all I ever heard about Harley is that they leak oil and are unreliable. Today all I hear is that they have serious mechanical issues and the dealers treat their customers like dirt. Perhaps instead of stock buy-backs and bonuses for Harley executives, some of that money should be invested in improving the customer experience? As of now, I will NEVER buy a Harley.
Nothing nostalgic about the PRICE that’s bang up to date 😂
I think one of the main things people mention, is Indian’s v twin that’s the same size as the Harley engine, makes about 40% more power. Harley has a lot of tech, but you have to spend a lot in the aftermarket to usually get the bike you want. A lot of Indians are a bit more expensive, but come stock with a lot of that stuff. I like both, I’ve ridden both. But it’s not just the “tech” they’re saying is outdated. The style, design, and engines is what they usually are talking about. And any time Harley makes an update to try and keep up with other manufacturers, Harley owners scream and howl that the new bikes aren’t like the Harleys from 1930 anymore. It’s a lose lose for them.
I just bought a new stage 4 low rider s with a bassani road rage exhaust, it’s a fucken amazing bike and sounds incredible. I almost can’t believe the sound that comes out of it, sounds like the most badass hotrod I’ve ever heard. It sure cost a lot but I’m bloody happy with it!
The chassis isn't really high tech. The brakes are perfectly fine but not state of the art. The forks are again fine but not Showa's best. The engines have seen a lot of development. Not everyone likes that though.
Harley Davidsons are irrelevant these days because no-one can afford them until they retire, so young people have forgotton what the Harley brand is all about.
Guess what, those youngsters are riding Hondas, Triumphs or whatever. Anything but a Harley-Davidson!
When the youngsters of today are finally able to afford a new Harley, they probably just won't because Harley have not cultivated their brand to attract new customers.
That's also assuming that Harley don't go bankrupt. (Yet again).
When will Harley wake up? It's nothing to with 'tech' or pointless 'riding modes'. My riding mode is in my brain. It's about making bikes to appeal to potential future customers, something cool and sporty. Just like, guess what? The Sportster! Then people graduate onto the bigger bikes. That's business.
It's so frustrating. Harley, import the Indian-made X440 to the UK, you'll sell loads! Even though it's a bit crap, people might just go for the name!
Harley-Davidson, please something cheaper and more appealing made in Thailand alongside your other manufacturing facilities over there! I don't know, but carrying on like nothing's changed in forty years, is not an option.
Look at what Triumph, Honda, Royal Enfield, CF Moto, Benelli and the rest of the industry are doing. Do Harley want to make bikes and make money or is this persistence in making such a narrowly focussed product just a bit of 'all-American' pride and bravado? I'm not sure.
I might buy a Tee shirt. At least that would be affordable. And useful.
Love and peace.
Surely everyone has their own opinion on this. But at the end of the day, only customers will decide whether HD is going the right way or not.
Hello from Texas. I would like to own a Heritage Classic but my Rocket 3 GT has spoiled me. I like all the tech, hill break, quick shifter, heated grips, ABS and cornering ABS, cruise control, etc. And the bike has character unlike the Valkyrie I used to have. If I bought the Harley I would probably not ride it much.
@@Bybert-9ky … you can get most of that on the Heritage too. Btw, what’s hill break? 🤔
Maybe you should just drive a Toyota.
I have Traction control, rider modes Rain, Street, and sport, and ABS on my Triumph. The TC saved my a$$$ last year early season. I don’t think this is too much tech for a street bike. Been riding since 1982.
I think Harley’s main problems are Price, weight, and leadership of the Brand. I would also say entry level motorcycles.
I have been very disappointed in the non production of the highly anticipated Bronx and a smaller (975) Pan America.
The whole point of a Harley Davidson is to be "Outdated" . . . Some call it "Classic" or "Retro" . . Without those characteristics they don't exist . . or will need to put "Honda" on the gas tanks . . .
HD tried to become 'relevant' with the V-Rod, failed...the Buel line, failed...the Mount Rushmore, failed...
It belongs in America... Worldwide Harleys are not relevant, but in the USA, nothing is as relevant to motorcycling as a Harley Davidson. That means nationalism still exists. Inherently
All of Harleys history they out source more than in house R&D back in the 70's they tried a go at an inline 4 but ended up scrapping the project. When dirt bikes were the buzz they slapped their logo on Aermacchi's . Not to long ago history repeated itself with the next generation Italian bikes. Time for Willie G. to sell to India and China in a way he already has.
People who say these things don't understand why there are some cars that are old-fashioned, unreliable, and uncomfortable, but people LOVE them anyway. Even some of the people who love such anachronistic cars, may make such a statement about motorcycles, but in my experience they're less likely to. Affection for any vehicle, motorcycle or car, is a subjective thing most of the time. What the hell does 'relevant' mean anyway? Anyone who asks this question with the word relevant in it is just weird. A bike or a car is a means of transport. They perform that function. Some do it better than others, some may be absolutely hopeless at it, but the word relevant is out of place here. In a conversation about bikes or cars, it's; IRRELEVANT.
People still desire them, but cannot afford price gouging.
I just had a long conversation with a long-term H-D owner in a bar last night, about this very question. He claims that, with proper suspension set-ups, he can really make his Bagger handle. I have seen this occasionally, (got smoked once by one on a twisty road, he was crazy). But my man says H-D's biggest problem is TOO MANY CLEAN BIKES ON THE USED MARKET. A Bazillion middle-life-crisis duffers (in the US, anyway), bought Harleys in the past 10-20 years.. hardly rode them, and now you can get them for a song. HE just bought a 2021 bagger for cheap, Mint condition.
Old tech simplicity was HD's appeal. 😮
Gday Rev, another good vid. There not outdated but just appeal to a specific genre of riders. The riders that want to join outlaw clubs or cruiser mandated clubs will still ride and buy them. They are just becoming more niche. The tech is fine. For many years people claimed HD weren’t moving with the times, now they say they’ve gone too far. If you want old school, get a evo or twin cam, if you want tech, get an M8. There will always be a market for them, even if the numbers are reducing.
Harleys are not for me. I don't particularly care for them, nor do I want to own one. I love my old Japanese bikes. But I love that you can go out and buy a classic, stripped down machine is a blessing. Just like Honda still blessing us with carbs on the XR650 for the time being. I'll take something stripped down and easy to work on over an overcomplicated mess any day. People get too caught up in wanting new shit for no reason. If you do, there are other bikes out there. No need to ruin a good thing.
Not Motor Company specific:
I ask if the tech fits the bike's reason for being in the stable, or what is the bike's mission? If I need a sensor to tell me my front tire is about to do a "tuck-n-flop," then, at least for this pleasure rider, I'm riding too close to 10/10ths. .
In the garage, I do like having a chance at my own services when I don't need special tools (electronic, or other) to keep things running.
The choice of adequate tech is part of "riding your own ride."
If I wanted a computer on 2 wheels I'd buy one. But I ride a Harley because...it's a HARLEY!!!! It has character and soul!
Nice bit of clickbait there Alf. My 2023 Sport Glide is a huge advancement over the old softails in both handling and performance but even the older twin cams using the Delphi ecu offer so much more access to tuning constants than almost any other brand available. That is useful Tech that even an old boomer like me can use.
Stupid? Thanks for the civil conversation. Fact: MOST young people aren't buying HD, sales are down drastically in the US. Try and play nice with others, like you're mother taught you. Riding over 50 years and still going strong.
Harley Davidsons suffer from being too techy and too old all at the same time. There are many Harley’s with more tech than my 2020 Suzuki has, I mean you can get Harley’s with an infotainment system on it, but that’s not what I’m asking for from Harley. I don’t want a 40000 dollar road sofa with an engine that’s still pumping push rods around. We’re not saying the V twin is outdated, just that certain Harley power plants are. I can’t pin this blame to Harley either, I have to pin it to the Harley rider. Harley had a big bore liquid cooled engine in a cruiser 20 years ago in the V-rod but it was largely ostracized by the Harley community because it was a liquid cooled engine. So Harley listened to its audience and it took them almost 15 more years and significant financial trouble before they flew in the face of the Harley bros and built a modern V twin. And now Harley is damaging itself even more with Johan Zeitz strategy of selling less Harley’s for more money. My generation needs cheaper motorcycles, yet Harley has forsaken us. They have actively axed the cheaper bikes and are now charging more for bikes that aren’t offering more. Harley has forsaken their blue collar roots to try and become a white collar brand. It would seem that Harley Davidson and their baby boomer buyers have forgotten where they came from and damned the next generation of riders. But that’s just a 27 yr old motorcycle enthusiasts opinion.
I've ridden a Hartley, but would never buy one. Just not my style. They should reach out more, Ducati used to be known for sports bikes but they expanded their catalogue. Harley should do something similar.
I like bikes without all the tech, my next bike will be much simpler.
Harley could do better
With alloy chassis would lighten the bikes heaps
I really, really tried to love Harley. I’m into the history, the culture, the simple, very mechanical machines… I love everything about the idea of them.
I’ve also owned three different brand new Harleys in the past three years, trying to find one I can live with. Compared to my other motorcycles, all of them had low build quality, poor handling and brakes, absurdly low power, were far more expensive, and were uncomfortable despite me trying lots of aftermarket seats, bars, risers etc.
I now think Harleys are pieces of crap trading on nostalgia - that’s all they got. It’s great if you love Harleys - I’m all for it and I hope you have a great time in the road. But for me after putting over 20k miles on three new ones, I think they’re awful.
If Harley is so irrelevant, why are Japanese manufacturers still cranking out V twin cruiser want-a be Harleys?
Harleys hard core customers have slowly strangled the very company they claim to love by demanding Harley keep on producing the same old bikes year after year. The sight of owners destroying their own bikes simply because Harley “dare” introduce diversity training just illustrates how difficult a company it will be to turn around.
The same old bikes? If Harley decided to look like everything else then what’s the point of buying an expensive Harley? DEI is not properly implemented by companies. It’s a form of racism that excludes white people. That has been proven numerous times.
I own a 1974 XLCH 1000 Sportster rigid frame kick start only chopper, a 1979 FLH stripped of all the bagger garbage, and a 1993 FXD-WG all bare bones no tech or windshields if I want that I'll get in my truck. I've been riding since i was 15 I am now 60. I thought the whole point of a bike is simplicity, it is for me at least. Everyone has different tastes, and it would be a boring world if we were all the same, for me there is nothing like the sound if a Harley just as the sound of all the 60's/70's muscle cars I own/owned plus the ability to work on them myself.
I wonder the age of the commenters that are crapping on having tech on their motorcycles?
Not everyone wants tons of electronics. Motorcycles aside, I'd much rather have a 1971 'cuda as opposed to a $100,000 2024 Tesla Cybertruck.
Re: TOO MUCH TECH. As with cars, the Mfrs. are forcing excessive BLING into the machines. I own a high-tuned 1999 Bandit 1200S; it has four carbs (easy to clean and set) and ONE ECU. Zero sensors. When something goes wrong (rarely), I immediately know what it is.. and can FIX it. PS- it RIPS.
They need to be developing their revmax for more bikes and start putting gas suspension systems as standard
They are not outdated, and are still relevant. The problem is the Harley Tax. Is the bike worth the extra price? I feel they are getting to a place were then need to justify why choose a Harley.
Anyone who states, with a straight fsce, that Harleys are irrelevant aught to say that in front of the several million loyal Harley riders.
Truly misinformed statement.
Every vehicle these days is a computer on wheels, and many of them have severely unreliable electronics and engines.
While the sad propogandanists attempt to sway the ignorant from Harley-Davidson, the MoCo will still outlive us all.
Personally I have ridden over a million miles on Harleys over the past six decades, never owned a new one, mostly choppers with a few stockers in the play, my '08 Heritage works hard every day here in South Africa, all she ever needs is tyres, spark plugs, filters, oil and occasionally a new battery at just under 100,000.
Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices. That is how we like it. Stop with the navigation systems, audio systems, Anti lock Braking is all gadgetry we do not want ,,or need .
I dont want tech, I'm looking for a panhead
I don't want modern tech on a motorcycle. Well, I don't want a Harley Davidson either. They are too heavy, too expensive and too clumsy for my liking. The only Harley I would find somewhat acceptable are the Sportster Iron 883, but I don't think it is current any more. I ride a 25 year old V-twin Suzuki 800 with a bare minimum of tech. Should I buy a new bike I would certainly look for something with as little "modern" crap as possible, but still no Harley Davidson.
Nobody need a harley.i have enough other O
PROBLEMS😅
Whoever thinks a Harley is "outdated" dont buy them, there are other brands like Honda
The Harley panamera is actually very heavily loaded with technology... So choice, is still up to the individual.
You nail it good missing in this mix the bikes have issue's in most of the time are left for customer to find out and the dance
One does to get it all sorted out ! After all the basic Harley been around for well over 60 years that said we cannot believe Harley doesn't know how to kick the shit out their bikes on there own lot to sort the crap not done ? And why is that ? No growth in market for Harleys if no parts and installation not coming around.yup not bad racket for 30 thousand +++++. Sad as it is isn't it.just saying the sad.
They are too expensive
Not everyone wants an 800 pound bike
Modern electronics are boring. I prefer outdated stuff.
F the technology. By the sound of your recent vids, I can tell you're not too thrilled with your HD. I have a '23 Low Rider S and a new gsxs1000gt sitting next to one another in the garage. I love looking at and riding the LRS. The verdict still isn't in on the Suzuki. A plain jane Z900 sits in the house and a 3rd gen DL650 is in here too. None of them are considered hi tech and that's why I bought them. Had a GS1200 loaded with BS tech that left me stranded more than once. Don't need 6 axis imu and all the rest of it. I'll say it once more, dig the HD and it will be one of the last that I sell.
Harley's added tech takes away from the ride . A radio and cruise control are good but all that infotainment is too much .
Harley’s are in the unique position of having Hollywood term motorbike as being a Harley … plain n simple .. say to anyone who doesn’t have a clue about bikes ‘I ride a Harley ‘ and they seethe image ( not the reality of an overweight American who couldn’t even get on a sportsbike never mind ride it 😂😂😂😂)
But this image has kept them going forever , far from being ‘the best bike’ they demand high prices with the American dream ( but we will overlook them sourcing abroad) and now people are starting to question many things , the younger generation aren’t interested in bikes … a whole slew of issues but then what business today doesn’t face problems , governments make people poorer and therefore less cash in the household to waste on toys … and Harley are possibly the most expensive toy of all
Large, heavy, pricey...apart from that fine.
@@metcruza5536 … what’s wrong with large and heavy? Honest question. Really. I’ve never understood that.
@elrumcajs777 Nothing. Problem HD has is not all of us want an 800 pound bike.
The old Evo Sporties were great town bikes with a great look. HD got rid of these and replaced them with models that don't sell.
@metcruza5536 Have you checked the weight and price of comparable Hondas?
@@garyshoaf5699 In 1995 I had a Shadow 750. Great bike did everything I needed.
Even a Scout is a lightweight with decent specs.
But each to their own. I'd never spend $39 or $40 K on a bike.
In my case I'd help the kids and still happy with a used bikes.
@@garyshoaf5699 In 1995 I had a Shadow 750. Great bike did everything I needed.
Even a Scout is a lightweight with decent specs.
But each to their own. I'd never spend $39 or $40 K on a bike.
In my case I'd help the kids and still happy with a used bike.
And these days just a commuter so an used Evo sporty will do fine.
Harley made the V-Rod and the Harley faithful hated it.
I can ride any bike I choose and have had 30+road bikes. I choose Ultra limited. Hands down..
Spend some time on a 2024 touring bike or CVO and then try to say that. You probably won't.
Harley's have always been rubbish to me, ...🙃😂
On the contrary. Newer Harley Davidsons are nothing but ipads on wheels. Computerized GARBAGE. They need to go back about 30 years in technology to be relevant. I have a 1989 FXRS Low Rider and a 2002 Sportster 1200C and love them. I would NEVER consider buying a Harley Davidson newer than 2006, when computers took over.
never been a harley fan but rode the new sporster s ,wow,no intension to buy $7000 off new price last years model irresistible ,dealer told me harley clearing all stock for new models the sporster s ,almost identical to my agusta brutale 800 same lineal power same sound ,did not buy for the tech,I think the sporster s and nighster they lightweight powerfully different from traditional harleys are far superior to competitors,also own a late model t100
If someone is looking for sophistication, it is better to buy a Honda or a Ducati.
Ducati has terrible reliability issues, cost a lot more than a Harley. Ducati dealers are far and few between. Service, parts and repairs are EXPENSIVE.
Service and repairs are also expensive on Jap and other European bikes.
Go ride a new CVO ST and let us know if you like it.