@@atlproductions216 History. The ridiculousness of the papacy, papal forgeries, filioque being added to the creed, absolute divine simplicity, Trinity doctrine, created grace, Vatican 1 vs Vatican 2, doctrinal development, etc. Rome has defected from the Church Christ started.
@@St.MosestheBlack how is the papacy ridiculous? Why can’t you accept the Filioque addition to the creed, when it is consistent with the faith? How is Vatican 1 against Vatican 2? How is Rome defected from the church Christ started when the Roman See is without error? As stated in the Letter of Pope Agatho at the third council of Constantinople, “the Apostolic Church of Christ, has both in prosperity and in adversity always held and defended with energy; which, it will be proved, by the grace of Almighty God, has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations, but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ, and remains undefiled unto the end, according to the divine promise of the Lord and Saviour himself, which he uttered in the holy Gospels to the prince of his disciples: saying, Peter, Peter, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for you, that (your) faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren”.
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8ppoh yeah what about the arc of the covenant in the old testament which had two angelic beeings above it ? Are you saying all the prophets were wrong about that ? Did they not know what you are quoting right now. It's exactly this problem of human beeings like you who don't understand the holy scriptures and interpret everything wrong. Your sola Scriptura is heretical and it leads you to huge fallacies.
One important concept to consider is the economy of images(oikonomia) that is set up even during the early Israelite history where the Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple had a wealth of images to depict not God, at least at the time, but the Edenic image and the divine reality of heaven(cherubim on the Ark of the covenant). The Incarnation of God in Christ meant that this new economy of images can be created because Christ in His human nature allows God to be depicted in images because humans are made in the image of God. The fact that most people in the ancient times were illiterate also meant that images of the happenings in the Word of God and the lives of the saints does really help people to understand how to live the Christian life better.
Well yes, it's what the icons represent that's important. Prothestents don't even get that pride flags are actually idolatry because of what they represent. So the real idolators are protestants. In fact they are never done blaming Catholic and Orthodox for their own heresies.
@@John-qr9po if you were British, you would probably have heard of the infamous Baptist Aleister Crowley. He was brought up in a family of strict Baptists. Nearly everyone in UK have heard of that man.
The real heretics are the zeus worshippers actually and they know it. Odin will come some day and sort it all out. Until then I will warm myself in the knowledge that I am completely right about all of this.
Peace be unto you. That was a commandment given by God, but besides that he has said... Exodus 20:4-6 Complete Jewish Bible 4 You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline. 5 You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love me and obey my mitzvot. Does God contradict himself?... Isaiah 55:8-9 Complete Jewish Bible 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Adonai. 9 “As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
@@Pedro-of4tn Peace of Jesus Christ be with you friend! I am Catholic so I will be looking at some commentaries on this subject than self interpretation and fall into Protestant Heresy. As Gamaliels principal and 4 Marks of True Church still holds in place as Catholic Church to be the true Faith. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. - Exodus 20:4 A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing All such images or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary, so far from being forbidden are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Exodus xxv. 15; chap. xxxviii. 7; Numbers xxi. 8, 9; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 18, 19; 2 Chronicles iii. 10. (Challoner) Protestants insidiously translate "any graven image "though pesel, eidolon, glupton, and sculptile, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, denote a graven thing or idol. They will, however, hardly condemn his majesty for having his representation stamped upon the coin of the nation, nor so many of our wealthy noblemen, who adorn their rooms with the choicest efforts of painting and of sculpture. They know that the object of prohibition is the making and adoring of idols. But they probably wish to keep the ignorant under the stupid delusion of supposing, that Catholics are idolaters, because they have images, and that they themselves are not, though they have them likewise at home; and even in their churches admit the absurd figures of the lion and the unicorn, stretching their paws over the tables of the law, instead of the pious representations of Jesus expiring on the cross, which were set up by their Catholic ancestors. Let them read, and adopt herein just weights and measures, proposed to them by Thorndike, one of their most discerning and moderate teachers. In the mean time, we will assure them, that we abhor all idols; both those made with hands, and those which are formed by the head of heretics, who set up their own fancies and delusions, to be adored instead of the true God. Our general councils of Nice and of Trent define what we ought to believe on this head; and the matter is so fully explained in our catechisms and books of instruction, as well as from our pulpits, that no person can well remain in ignorance. If we perform various actions of respect before pictures, which are also done in honour of God, can any man of sense infer, that we look upon both with equal respect? Do we not read of the people falling down to show respect to the king, and supreme worship to God, by the same act of the body? (Haydock) Altars and sacrifice we reserve solely for God, as St. Augustine (contra Faust. xx. 21,) well observes. Other indifferent practices must be determined by the intention. Latria, or supreme worship, can be given to none but the Deity. But we show our respect and veneration for his servants in glory, by an inferior service called Dulia, giving honour to whom honour is due. How profane and impious must the words of the first reformers appear, who, after saying most falsely, that "papists make the Virgin Mary a god, (Luther. postil.) and worship images in heathenish manner "(Melanct. Loc. com.) attribute various fictitious crimes to the blessed Virgin and other saints! (Centuriators of Magdeburg; Calvin) They knew that all the saints abhorred their impiety; and therefore, in revenge, they vilify the saints, and condemn all the doctors and fathers of the Church, since the death of the apostles, as guilty of superstition and idolatry. (Haydock) "By this occasion, dead creatures, and bloodless half worm-eaten bones, began to be honoured, invocated, and worshipped with divine honour. All which the doctors of the Church not only winked at, but also set forward. "(Centuriators of Magdeburg, C. vi.) What is then become of the promises of God, to teach all the truth by the mouths of his pastors? (Matthew xxviii) Let others judge, whether we ought to pay greater deference to Saints Jerome, Augustine, Gregory, or to Luther, Calvin, and the Centuriators of Magdeburg. But some will even admit that images were commanded by God, chap. xxv. 18 Hence they lay great stress upon the words to thyself; as if all images were forbidden that man should make, without the express sanction of God. So Parkhurst Lexic. But those who are conversant in Hebrew, know that these words have no such import; and if things were inseparable from idolatry, they could not be sanctioned by God. (Haydock) No creature must be represented as a deity. But sovereign worship, both internal and external, must be given to the great Author of all good, while we abstain from every superstitious act, and from all dealings with the devil and false religions. (Calmet) Protestants, therefore, who only forbid images, diminish God's law. Were not the idols of Chanaan, Chamos, which represented nothing in nature, also condemned? - George Leo Haydock 1849
@@Pedro-of4tn Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. - Exodus 20:4 A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing: All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10. - Richard Challoner 1781
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@hellohellohellohello127 Hello. There is an essence-energy/power distinction in God:,,For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'' (Romans 1:20). Here His eternal power refers to His energy and the Godhead refers to the essence. God has appeared to men according to His uncreated energy only and in the forms His energy appeared to men. But He has never appeared to men according to His invisible essence. Jesus said:,,It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.'' (John 6:45-46). He was the only one who has seen the Father:,,And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.'' (John 5:37, KJV). God had appeared to holy men befire the Incarnation but Jesus is the only Who has seen Him. That is because God has appeared to men and was seen by men only according to His uncreated energy in the form in which it appeared to men but not according to His essence. Jesus is the only One Who has seen the Father because He is the only One Who has seen the essence of the Father which is due to the fact that they bear a common divine essence. That is why the apostle says that the Only-Begotten Son is in the bossom of the Father (John 1:18) which is, in relation with John 6:45-46 and John 5:37, also an argument against the islamic claim that Jesus never said directly or indirectly that He was God. A creature is able to observe only the uncreated energy of God but not the essence because the essence is beyond and above the energies. Analogically, althouth that analogy is not perfect of course, we see the light that the sun emits but we do not see its nucleaus. Between us and the nucleaus is the outer layer of the sun. The angels and saints in heaven see the divine energy but not the essence which is behind, beyond and above the uncreated divine energy. His power appeared as light at the Transfiguration, so it is visible:,,And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen *the* *kingdom* *of* *God* *come* *with* *power* . 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: *and* *he* *was* *transfigured* *before* *them* . 3 *And* *his* *raiment* *became* *shining* , *exceeding* *white* *as* *snow* ; so as no fuller on earth can white them . 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.“ (Mark 9:1-4, KJV). Whem St.Daniel saw God the Father (Daniel 7:9), he did not see the essence but the uncreated energy in the form it appeared and it was in the same form as it appeared at Jesus' trasfiguration:,,I beheld till the thrones were cast down, *and* *the* *Ancient* *of* *days* *did* *sit* , *whose* *garment* *was* *white* *as* *snow* , and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.'' (Daniel 7:9). His garment was white as snow - just like the raiment of Jesus became white as snow. Therefore, the depiction of God the Father as an old man is a depiction of the form that His uncreated energy appeared in to the holy prophet. It is not a depiction of the essence that no man is or will be able to observe.
Not praying to the picture, but what it represents, being a saint (who has regained the likeness of God, and therefor is graced with holiness) or Christ Himself.
@@haronsmith8974 Except for the people who do, as well as leaving offerings. I feel like I'm being gaslit every time a Catholic or Orthodox tells me it doesn't happen.
@@EmberBright2077 I doesn't matter what you feel, it's not the Catholic Doctrine so no. If you want to criticize Catholicism, criticize it's Official teachings, not the stuff individual Catholics do.
Former protestant academic, who read St. Gregory of Nyssa and began rejecting Dr. James White, and others. I will likely work on my Ph.D. using apophatic philosophy in my dissertation.
Give what is due to God the Father and of his Son Jesus the Christ for paying with his life for your sins. O precious blood of Jesus Christ save us and the whole world.
Especially because of pope saint Gregory III condemning iconoclasm as a heresy, which is indeed up to him as the pope, making this a victory for orthodoxy as found within Catholicism ;)
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp You are cherry picking scriptures to fit your belief (You’re also quoting from the inaccurate KJV Bible btw). In Exodus 20, God commands not to create graven images of anything in heaven or on earth. However, just a few chapters later in Exodus 25:18, God instructs Moses to make two golden cherubim statues for the Ark of the Covenant. Similarly, in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands the creation of a brazen serpent on a pole for the healing of the Israelites. The key to understanding this apparent contradiction lies in God's use of physical objects as instruments of His grace and power. While there are no images of God Himself in the Old Testament, God employs physical representations, like the cherubim and the brazen serpent, as sources of blessing and healing for His people. In the New Testament, with the Incarnation of Christ, God takes on a physical form. Colossians 1:14-15 emphasizes this by stating: “Christ is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation.” The Greek word for "image" here is "eikon" or "icon." Christ is the ultimate icon because of the Incarnation. In the Incarnation, God becomes physical, establishing a profound and intimate connection between the physical world and God's presence. Therefore, the condemnation in the Old Testament is directed toward idolatry-the worship of false gods through images-not the mere creation of statues or images. This interpretation highlights the shift from the limited use of images in the Old Testament to a fuller expression of God's physical presence in the New Testament, especially through the Incarnation of Christ. This is why Catholics and Orthodox use images of God, Mary, and Saints, among others. For Catholics and Orthodox, these images are not objects of worship but serve as reminders of the divine and as aids to prayer and meditation. They are considered to be a part of the rich tradition of the Church, a tradition that emphasizes the incarnation of Christ and the tangible ways in which God's grace is conveyed through physical means. Thus, using images in Catholic and Orthodox worship is seen as a way to deepen one's faith and connection to God and the saints, and it is not considered un-biblical or against God's commandments when understood in this context.
I never understood this because most other religions say they don't worship their idols either, and they are just representations of their God... so what's the difference between idols and icons really?
Icons and idols are the same if icons are worshipped. They worship an image of something or a saint. Worshipping Jesus and worshipping an image of Jesus are 2 different things, respectively. 🙏
@loosestroodle Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says: ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV). Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state: ,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV). They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ. That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17). The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17). The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“ In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
@@florentinaehceru5731 yet you do not provide counter proof of why it is a violation of the second commandment, you should read about the Synagogue in Duras-Europos, it's filled with icons of angels and passages from the Pentateuh.
The biggest argument pro icons is right after the ten commandments God demanded that Moses put angels on the ark of the covenant. So unless you want to call god a hypocrite statues are fine.
@proudamerican4345 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says: ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV). Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state: ,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV). They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ. That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17). The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17). The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“ In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
@@user-gv9my3jy4b Hello. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as a god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent. The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to vow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") which is used towards God (e.g. in John 4.24) is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church.
@@user-gv9my3jy4b Really? Did God not command Moses to make a bronze snake on a staff to heal the Israelites in the desert as they where being bit by snakes? It sounds like you have been miss informed, and your counter argument is weak.
@@proudamerican4345 I think the keyword here is "command". God commanded Moses/Israelites to make the churubims SPECIFICALLY for the ark. God commanded Moses to make a bronze snake staff for a SPECIFIC purpose. It doesn't mean everyone should now make anything and bow or kiss to it.
I dont think that icons are necessarily the problem Protestants have. The issue begins when they are "Venerated" that turns the image into an idol so yes its true that the old testament does instruct the building of images of cherbium but never is it stated to then venarate the cheribums. The 2nd commandment does specify that we should not "bow" to these images, and that's exactly what is done during veneration.
@elnathan2930 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says: ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV). Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state: ,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV). They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ. That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17). The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17). The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“ In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
Except you dont know them, except they are venerated, except they are in churches, except they are required to be kissed, except they cause schism in believers, except they are painted and may not represent reality like a photo, except they are asked to intercede for us, except some pray to them, except they are not simply pictures but windows to those whom have passed on which people believe they are present through, they are quite different.
@@YourStylesGeneric321so I used to think similarly when thinking of praying to saints. My question to you: is God the God of the living or the God of the dead? The saints are not dead. Christ is not dead. Christians never die. I’ve never met the saints. Are they not in Christ the same as I? Are we not a part of the same body?
You forgot to mention the most important part. Anyone who rejects to have icons is anathema, making it an essential doctrine, necessary for salvation, and hence part of the Gospel the apostles taught.
I Know, I was orthodox 28 yrs. they kiss and bow down to the icons. If this is not idolatry then what is? 😅 And many other pagan customs that they practices in the church to make money
@@sailorbelle2265Christianity and all religions as a whole adopted some part of paganism. this includes catholicism and protestantism. not just Orthodoxy. so dont use this trash excuse as a way to slander and throw shit at my Church. if you think its idolatry then read the Bible first. God Himself has an image, and we are made in His image. ur not only opposing the human race, but God Himself.
@@sailorbelle2265Hello. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent. The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to vow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") which is used towards God (e.g. in John 4.24) is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church, but not in the meaning of to givie divine honour. Leaving the Church by a member of hers puts the one leaving in the state to the unforgivable sin (Hebrews 10.28-29 in relation with Matthew 12.32).
@Leodosius I am curious as to what passage in Genesis you are expecting me to relate back to this topic that would justify your point of view, when it comes to venerating man and making graven images. Please enlighten me. And for honoring my mother and my father I honor them by obeying them, by not living in open defiance to them and honoring their teaching as an adult. I don’t burn firewood, but my parents do. So even though I’m married and live with my wife I go over and help my dad get his firewood. I do not, however, set pictures of them around my house to venerate them as part of my worship of God.
@@calebstevens4658 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says: ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV). Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state: ,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV). They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ. That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17). The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17). The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“ In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
@@calebstevens4658veneration is just showing respect, you’re not worshipping the icon. That is much different than having a wooden or metal idol and worshiping that thing. The apostle Luke made icons, he was the first to do it. One of the other apostles was buried with icons. Don’t you think those who lived with Jesus for years would know if it’s idolatry or not. This matter had been settled for nearly 1000 years did all those Christian’s before Protestantism who had icons committing idolatry and weren’t saved?
does anyone know anything about iconoduls who scraped wood of the icon of Christ to add it in chalice of Eucharist? i heard they were considered heretics
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
I don't know about that. I see Catholics kissing, bowing, offering food/anything, etc. to icons/statues of Mary and/or the saints. Worse, some would even go to a specific place (provinces, miles away) just to get a glimpse or touch of the icon/statue of a specific "version" of Jesus or Mary parading through town. Doesn't looked like just "veneration" or respect to me. Very concerning...
@@player1playforfun That's good to hear. I wouldn't say still that Catholics in general do this but maybe it's just in my country. It looks like a case of not knowing what actually their church teaches.
@@player1playforfunyou are a fool, orthodox do the same thing. 99% of the time when eastern orthodox are bashing Catholics they don’t realize they do the same things
Many early christians from the 1st and 2nd century greatly discouraged icon usage and religious imagery in general. Examples could be Tertullian and Origen, but there are others. The common argument of these early iconoclasts was that we worship a God of Spirit, but the pagans worship gods of image and statue. Many early christians did not use images, and many church fathers rejected images, and those that didn't specify that images were only for teaching purposes, never to be used in worship. The earliest recorded church opinions are against images and image veneration.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded There are 'images' that can be dated around the 1st century. This does not imply they were venerated, nor specifies any particular use of the images. It is all speculation and I think it is reading the doctrine into history rather than being historically honest. Read the early church fathers, the earliest attestations are against image "veneration" but not particularly against images, or they are against images in worship entirely.
@@yannibelousov3204 No early Church Father was against images. Early Church Fathers didnt support a specific Church, There was no schism at the time. So wether you like it or not, Icons are a Christian practice. Even The Bible itself says Christ has an Image and that He made us in His image, Therefor by denying icons, You are denying God. If all images are bad, that means a picture of you is idolatrous as well. Churches, And Crosses are also Icons. Educate yourself, You protestant.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Clement was against images stating that works of art are to never be sacred or divine. Tertullian was seriously aniconic as I stated. Augustine said that no one knows what Jesus nor his mother looked like. And Hypolitus was against the appearance of "sacred images" which he called idols, though he did not forbid images or scupltures entirely. Gregory promoted the use of images in teaching but against their use in liturgical practices. And the whole Luke made the first icon, its a complete rumor that appeared in the 6th century at the earliest. Like augustine said, no one knew what Jesus or Mary looked like. And with the rhetoric, its uncouth, I do not attack you nor insult you, I state my claims with respect and evidence. I don't claim you uneducated nor ignorant, it is not of the Spirit to be so vilifying in your response.
As a Protestant I used to see icons as bad. But icons are just symbols that represent the person but it’s understood that it’s not the actual person. We Protestants love the cross we understand that the cross is not God but sometimes we hold the cross in prayer or put up the cross in our homes as symbol of our faith or wear a chain with the cross. The Icons of Jesus and saints are just symbols that represent them. That’s reasonable to me.
Hey I got omitted a sin by christ where he told me not to make that mistake again with a vision of the person. A year later I was in between jobs and was singing and praising and praying while under spiritual attack when the lord of hosts came and asked me," my friend what do you need." And after received a mark on my forehead and have seen angelic hosts as well as disembodied lights that have both spoken to me and through me would anyone here know anything on that subject bc I'm a Lil confused
Sorry if i may not be much of a help, but, i believe there is a passage in revelation that talks about an "mark". I'm sure you know by now rev 13-14, specifically the passage 16-17 and 18. 16: "The second beast made it so that all, big and small, rich and poor, free and slaves, received an mark on the right hand or the forehead." 17: "And nobody can buy nor sell if it doesn't have the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of it's name." 18: "Here it's required to understand: whom is smart, count the number of the beast; it is an number of men; the number is six hundred and sixty six." Again, sorry if i cannot be much of a help, but, i think that mark could've been the mark of the beast. Unless i could be wrong.
Dpeictions seem alright and no church would look half as good without them, but my prayers are reserved for CHRIST. Gonna cite the warnings against trying to contact the dead, and yes the saints are alive, but that whole witch or Endor event would seem to favor my position
I think I see a little bit of misconception here. Yes as an Orthodox our prayers are reserved for God Intercession means asking for prayers not praying. I think the conflict is due to the understanding of what prayer is but my above statements are understandable to u also.
i am very interested to learn of catholic and other orthodox theology's. im more of a charismatic protestant myself i think, and i just finished a year at bible college im just confused why alot of these things are accepted like weird outfits and ceremonies like having a pope alot of normal orthodox things seem like there going directly against gods word
This is one thing that holds me back to join Catholicism/ orthodoxy. The icons and the statues . It’s probably because the way I grew up , but it seems to me to be idolatry . I understand the arguments , I just need to study more .
@@GrammarPaladin yes it seems like it’s obviously idolatry but they argue it’s not . Like having statues , then asking them to pray for us to God . I understand they say it’s veneration and intercession but this combined can be easily idolatry . I do need to study more , for this is the oldest Christian church , although a lot of traditions were adopted throughout the early centuries
@@fredericorodriguez808 Im Orthodox and Ive never prayed to intercessors, to God alone always I pray As for icons, theyre useful as an artpiece and expression, but u dont use em to worship When I pray, theres no icons or statues or anything like that
What I don't understand is why did this all happen in the 8 or 9th century? Did Jesus say that we should use imagery of him or any prophet or apostles in prayer or worshipping? Or to disregard the commandment because he came to us in the flesh? Again, why did the issue take 800+ years to be addressed? Huge issue...
The issue I have against icons is that people take them too seriously. I have no issues with art and depicting the messiah, but it’s important to know that having icons can easily lead to idolatry, which, unfortunately, I see all to often in Catholic and orthodox churches
Humans are the living images of God. We don’t need figurines and paintings to depict God, and we’ve been told not to make images (molded/engraved idols) of God. Respectfully, An unapologetic iconoclast.
@@proteinpapi7595 That’s not a good argument. Icons of God _aren’t_ helpful, they detract. YOU are the image of God. When you live as the _living_ God intended, you fulfill your intended function as a _living_ display of the glory of the _living_ God. When we - the images of God - make un-living images of God, we are simply making shoddy counterfeits of ourselves.
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
I believe this is a good argument for representing christ in images, but i think its incomplete in terms of defending image veneration. May you provide any extra arguments for image veneration?
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8ppfunny how Solomon's temple is filled with images of Cheribums and Seraphims When Exodus states thou shalt not make images from heaven above 🤣
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp what you need to understand is what was the purpose of idolatry in the surrounding nations? If the "ye shall have no others God's before me" is part of he same commandment..it's worships like the other nations
So God went against His own commandment and commanded graven images in the ark of the covenant & also in the curtains/veil of the Holy Place in the Old Testament? The Scriptures say you ought to obey the tradition passed down from the Apostles not just by writting but also by word. It also speaks of authority in the Church, bishops, and deacons etc. what Bishop do you have? Is your Bishop from the Line of the Apostles? Jesus said you must eat His Body and Blood or you have no life in you, you dont have this either. Protestanism is a mess full of division and heresies. I say this as an ex-Protestant of 10 years. Thank God for His Church! ☦️
@@lauramatos1181 Wow. You sure there wasn't anything else you wanted to squeeze into one comment? Since the video, and my original comment, had to do with images, I'll stick to that. No. God did not go against His own commandment in regard to the ark of the covenant. I'd encourage you to go back and re-read the commandment. It specifically says, "You shall not make "for yourself" an idol, or any likeness..." That phrase, "for yourself" is pretty important, don't you think? When the Israelites obeyed God's command in the construction of the ark, they were not making an image for themselves, they were making an image in obedience to the command of God. And those commands are few and far between, perhaps having only to do with the tabernacle and the temple. the point of my original comment is that those who venerate images make the second commandment meaningless. Every defense of images must, of necessity, begin with a discourse concerning why the second commandment doesn't really mean what it clearly says, it doesn't mean what the Jews clearly thought it meant, and it doesn't mean what the early church believed it to mean, at least up to Eusebius in the 4th century. Given the fact that it was a point of controversy for many centuries after that, I hope you won't reply with any silliness about the universal understanding of the church. But I'd be happy to hear further about why the 2nd commandment doesn't really mean what it says.
@@jim6690 God doesn't command us to do what he tells us is sin. And no icons are not just for ourselves but they are gir and honor God since they honor the person he represents along with his best followers ❤
@@robertkolinsky1286 Again, go back and read the text. The command was not "Don't make images". The command was, "Don't make images 'for yourselves'." As for icons not just being for ourselves...you don't get to make that decision. When the Lord says, "Don't make images for yourselves", it's not a matter of who it is made for, but rather, it is a matter of who determines whether or not it is made. You're thinking of the phrase, "for yourself" in the wrong way. God says, "Create them when and how and where I tell you, but don't just go off and do it for yourselves, in your own agency, according to your own decisive will." And apart from those things having to do with the tabernacle and the temple, God has nowhere commanded anyone to make "sacred" images. The prohibition of the second commandment is specifically in the context of worship. I would think one would at least be given a moment of pause when one reads, on the one hand, the very words of God prohibiting images, and then, on the other hand, reads the anathemas declared at Nicaea II pronounced upon those who refuse to venerate images. I wonder. Do those anathemas include the believing, Old Covenant remnant? Does it include the early church at least to the 4th century? Are do they only kick in in the 8th century, when a council was necessary because after 800 years this was now an issue of disagreement?
@jim6690 Excellent, my way of reasoning as well. The second commandment is clear enough and should be taken at face value. The first commandment is worshipping the right God, the second commandment is worshipping God the right way.
When Emperor Leo III condemned the veneration of images in 726 AD, the defenders of the cult of images in the East found their only support in the papacy. On pain of deposition and even death, Pope Gregory publicly condemned the step made by the emperor (Dvornik 93-94). The seventh ecumenical council (787 AD) was summoned to solve this issue and Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople defended its validity by invoking the office the Pope held, “Without them [the Romans], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned in a preliminary fashion by the canons and ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved, or abrogated; for they are the ones, in fact, who possess the principate of the priesthood and who owe this distinction to the leader of the Apostles” (Nicephorus, Apologeticus Pro Sacris Imaginibus, 25). For the eastern theologians at this time, the Church could not assert or develop universal doctrine or call an ecumenical council without the Bishop of Rome to preside over it.
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp All is well, AND you also need to take this in its TIME and to WHOM GOD said it - similar misunderstanding and tactics Muslim use to confuse people and weekend the faith, by taking words from one book and another words from another book and say "here you go how can you believe such contradictions." the time and the place make all the difference. +++
So it was not God's command to make idols about him but a group of humans who agreed? How can we trust this group of humans who can just make their own laws and implement them?
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
All glory to God, not to saints… I have a hard time understanding how this is not idolatry. To God be all Glory so why give glory to saints? Maybe this isn’t the point of venerating saints but it is a thin line to venerate a saints and giving glory to something that is not God. When we give glory to something other than God is that not idolatry? I’m just trying to understand
Amén, all glory to God. And venerating saints help us to have a deeply and stronger understanding of how God loves his sons. to me at least it has helped me. Every time I have a question about theology or about the church there is always a saint that explains and answers my questions in such deeply manner. And having a statue of saints helps me remember their love for God and encourages me
@@kike0260 This I can understand, thank you for answering! And so I have another question about praying to the saints why is this a thing? When we have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father who are omnipotent and can answer all prayers?
@@ZealousEZRA Saints are "prayed to" so that we may ask them for intercessory prayer. It is an opportunity for the Saint to continue to glorify God by praying to Him for our intercession. We ask the Saints to pray for us because they have displayed the properties and characters in alignment with the Holy Spirit and thus embodying the guidance Christ gave to us. Recall the psalm in which we are told "a broken and humble heart, God will not despise." Truly the prayers of the righteous are most pleasant to our Triune God. A Saint in the Church of Heaven, by their nature, is one with the Holy Spirit and humble heart.
@@ZealousEZRAby "our intercession" I meant intercession on our behalf by Christ the Living God. Christ is the one interceding into our lives on our behalf in part by our own request and that of the Saints.
@@SeraphimVolker this all sounds very beautiful but where is the basis for this in scripture? In scripture I can find that the Holy Spirit can intercede for us in prayer but nowhere yet have I found that anyone is praying to saints or any of the old prophets for example Moses or King David. So when and why did people start praying to saints instead of letting the Holy Spirit intercede as it is written? God be with you!
I haven't examine texts yet but from reading the bible myself and reading online explanations and from pastors when I was still a Pentecostal. Regarding the old testament, the Jews were destroying images of the Hebrew God and/or had wiped out other factions that claim to worship him because of the said usage of idols... Now, I don't think I remember any depictions of the Jews worshipping God in a way as God commanded while bowing into his images. If anything, that time when Moses broke the tablets those Jews were claiming they're worshiping God yet the image is in a different form and maybe the practice of that worship style deviates from the way God had commanded so (because it could be Hathor or really Baal, take note both God and Baal has same hero story of being like storm/thunder deities that defeated a great chaos depicted as the sea or dragon that lurks in the sea yet, if you read the bible and the history of worship of both you'd see the difference). Now my argument regarding the icons is that who would have any idea how the saints and the Lord would've looked like? in their ancient times paper was still very expensive and sculptures requires some legal procedures and some money, so it would make sense to have an icon since who knows people might say they're worshiping Jesus yet whom they're portraying is the image of Mithras
Christianity does not retain everything Jewish. The Jewish requirement for male circumcision was done away with in the very beginning when the apostles were still living.
Much murder, exactly what Jesus warned would happen. "THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THOSE WHO PUT YOU TO DEATH, WILL BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING A SERVICE TO GOD."
@@adude849 meaning, they exalt the images of the saints. The saints, including Mary, and including the angels of God, are not to be exalted. God is the only one to be worshipped.
Yeah you needed to express Jesus and His life in art to remember him throughout history and culture. But it’s still quite out of hand. But so is the spread of islam.
Out of hand how so? I guess people don’t use images and icons correctly but that’s on the individual. And islams spread is not out of hand lol. It’s just that Christianity doesn’t actively try to spread as much as they do. Islam if full of holes and silliness
@@suppaman12 You’re sort of right, but Basis of my claims on muslim spreading out of hand: Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population over the next two decades - an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims, compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion. - pew research center. Basis of out of hand icons for Christians being out of hand: I live in the Philippines. Come here during the procession of the nazarene, I’ll show you.
@@TheVineOfChristLives at least they are only growing because of birth rate, not because they are convinced by that religion. Many Ex Muslims are in the closet, because they fear persecution. Especially in Iran. According to Iran 99% of their population is Muslim, but it is estimated that 70% don't identify as Muslim. Leaving Islam is punishable by death under Sharia Law.
@@TheVineOfChristLivesjust gotta say the "growth" of Islam isn't from conversion but rather reproduction. They have a lot of children. However I heard an Imam state that 95% of converts leave within 5-10 years approximately. So it's not really a religion that's growing in the sense of "truth" but rather by reproduction. Even so, appeal to majority is a fallacy and not really a valid argument to truth.
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
I've been attending an orthodox church out of curiosity, having been embroiled in his debate online for 2 years. I am a thorough objective thinker. I decided to see if all the accounts of 'i went to an orthodox church and wow!! I felt so in touch with..." Ect were valid. I attend in good faith, twice a week, vespers and liturgy. Each time i go, i feel more and more separated from God than before. As someone who was truly born again, at 35, after thinking i was a Christian my entire life.. i need absolutely nothing to feel God right here beside me every moment of every day. Prayer, reading the Bible, sitting before God, listening to the Discovering the Jewishs jesus ministry..they are all ways to experience God.. the stuff ppl do in an orthodox church just seems ridiculous to me, i stand there and ppl incessantly cross themselves like 100 times in 1 hour, little children with no concept of what is what kiss icons at the behest of their parents.. and i wont even get into the things I've heard, by larping anglo saxon Converts, which is 98% of the church I've attended.. the whole scene from my personal experience feels devoid, not 'full'. These, primarily neophyte converts will straw man protestantism by using ppl like joel orsteen, or a church that affirms homosexuality, as if it represents true reformed Christianity. When you are trying to defend a position where dogmas have painted you into a corner, your arguments won't be coherent. This is the position of several tenants of orthodoxy.
Ya. Jesus never said anything about. Jesus says, i did not come here to abolish the law, but to fulfill. Means. No grave images of heaven above, anything on earth, or anything under the earth. Nothing... Oh ye of little faith! When sre you going to put your trust in the Lord Jesus instead of your idols, the way you kiss them. Shame on you. Be careful. Jesus is always with us. And lo, I am with you always. God bless
As it is written: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
@hannahgetaneh000 bowing down to images is an abomination to the Lord. I wouldn't smash or destroy any religious artwork that's not what I am saying. But bowing down to images is an abomination. It's one of the commandments God repeated the most throughout His Word, and it the most common sin of the Israelites which they kept falling back into. Bow down to the Lord our God alone. You shall not bow down to images.
@CatholicChristSaves938 very good! I agree, and "picture story" is an appropriate use of images. But bowing down to images is strictly forbidden by the Lord.
Exodus 25:18- [God commands to Moses], “Make two cherubim of gold(graven images of angels), .. at the two ends of the mercy seat “. The ban on graven images is for pagans who can’t tell the difference ( and of course, neither can Protestants).
So it wasn’t something that the apostles taught them. It was brought in the 4th century and normalized in the 8th century, well after the apostles died. Jesus is everything guys!! We don’t need to pray to dead saints or venerate icons. He alone is the One who is worthy of our worship.
First of all, decorations and forms of artistic expression should not be condemned because they are records of human civilization And second, intercession prayers are actually not mandatory because even the most devout Saints did not depend on intercession And if you don't respect the Saints then you hate Jesus too (John 15:18)
Humans will always try to justify their sin to ease their conscience, but the Word of God could not he any clearer, Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
@@WARLORDDOMIf you refuse to venerate the Icons of Jesus then you reject Jesus indirectly Whoever does not venerate Images shall be rejected on the Day of Resurrection when Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you"
Deuteronomy 4: Beware of Idolatry 15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. Moses had to say that to the people because God knows them. Look at all the images they made for themselves although none of them saw our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ or His mother, Mary. So to the people kneeling and praying to icons: Who are you praying to?
It seems a textbook violation of the 2nd Commandment -- not to create the images (I am an artist, myself!) but to then venerate the images... that is where it becomes a violation.
@sketchbook1 Hello. The Second Commandment in Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship which is given by people who do not know the Triune God, substitutes the worship that must be given only to Him. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says: ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV). Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. By true Church I am referring to the Orthodox Church but that is a different topic. That the saints intercede for us before God when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they have become omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, *that* *he* *may* *abide* *with* *you* *for* *ever* ; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
Hello. The veneration is given to the prototype, not to its image. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent but their intercession in the sense of praying for us before God is possible due to that that the Holy Spirit abides with them forever (John 14.16-17). Only Christ isn intercesoor as a Redeemer (2 Timorhy 1.5-6). The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to bow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church, but not in the meaning of to give divine honour. ,,Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.'' (Revelation 3.9).
@@Yasen.Dobrev If the veneration is given to the prototype and not to the image, then the images are unnecessary. Also, if they are not needed for true veneration of God and Jesus Christ, they can only serve to tempt towards idolatry. The early church had NO images, and talked about the absence of them in our churches to be the great sign of our difference between us and the pagans.
@@sketchbook1 Thank you for the reply. There are images in the early Church yet in the catacombs. That they are not needed for veneration, is a subjective conclusion. In Origen’s Contra Celsum which is used in defense of iconoclasm, he rejects the images and says that our souls are altars. But he rejects only the pagan images because otherwise altars must be rejected, too. But St.Paul refers to the Christian altar in Hebrews 13.10. There is a distinction of power (energy) and Godhead (the nature) in God (Romans 1.20)). We receive power (Acts 1.8, 2 Peter 1.3). As there cannot be new sacrifices after Christ's (Hebrews 9.24-26), the partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1.4) which is not literal because noone can become God by essence (Isaiah 43.10), refers to the partaking of the Holy Eucharist as His True Body and Blood because only the True human nature of our Lord Jesus Christ is hypostatically united with the divine nature. So the metousiosis (transubstantiation) which is a mystery is true and its rejection shows that the Spirit of Truth is not outside the Church (I mean the Orthodox Church which is a different topic) but is received by the prayer of the priesthood (Acts 8.14-17), hence the priesthood with an apostolic succession is necessary for salvation.
@@Yasen.Dobrev I would agree that narrative images have always been around-- I myself am an artist and find them valuable and spiritually edifying. You lost me, however, when you defend any priesthood besides the Priesthood of all believers, which is what Peter talked about in Scripture. You've gotten yourself so wrapped in human wisdom and tradition, there seems no way to show you how unbiblical your positions are. Unspiritual, too. "Partake in the divine nature and escape the corruption of the world caused by evil desires" is biblical, but Peter said it comes through the "great and precious promises..."
That sounds like a total non-sequitur. Just because the incarnation happened with God the Son does not follow that we have whole sale devotion to icons of finite beings.
What would you expect from wicked heretics such as the “Orthodox” Church. God allowed them to fall into heresy after they split from the true church, heresies such as Palamas and his Palamite heresy.
There is no such thing as ,,Byzantine" empire.... thats a nickname. Its called Eastern Rome Empire guys.... Byzantine is a BULGARIAN NICKNAME from 16th century, later adopted by science, to make difference between Western and Eastern rome.
@@goshu7009 well let me answer heres an example. you have a cool restaurant named “phil’s clams” phil used to sell fries, now he sells clams. in this case, he sells both. so using either words is fine.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Anyway... Eastern Rome will continue to be Rome...... btw, do you know who represents modern day ,,Eastern Rome" - thats Russia :)
This breaks the second commandment. Full stop. Honestly, it shouldn't be this difficult to just stop. Why is it so difficult to let go of the pictures and statues? Shouldn't you rather argue that since it seems to break the 2nd Commandment, that it's better to just let go? What is binding you to those things so hard that you will fight tooth and nail to keep it?
After the death of Adam and Sheath People began to make small icons of great people to venerate and remember them but the same icons was later turned into idol worship and during the period of Noah God sent the floods to destroy the ultimate sin idolatry. If the Orthodox Christians can't see that truth and learn from the history of prophets plz carry on
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" The Most High makes it clear. Anything that is not a perfect representation of Yeshua is not worthy of worship, and only Yeshua Himself is a perfect representation. John 4:24: "God is spirit, and the ones who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." Jesus Himself commanded this. Listen to Him
You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
Revelation 3.6-10 - ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works - behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it - for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
The explicitly says no graven idole or images. The orthodox church is wicked. I left the this because i didnt know any better. I read the BIBLE KJV and the truth shall make you free.
And at the end ... We see Catholics worshiping statues and portraits of saints. Placing flowers, incense, ... candles ... praying to it, bowing down to them, kissing its feet, carrying those statues around in a procession. Drink or using water in wells where these broken statues are thrown into ... and so on ... WE WORSHIP THE ALMIGHTY ONE *IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH!!!* FOR THE ALMIGHTY ONE *IS SPIRIT AND TRUTH!!!* Evil prevails again, just as it did Adam. The story doesn't change ... does it?!!!
@@filida ... You guys are blind sheep being lead astray ... to be slaughtered. Satan already deceived Adam ... who was a perfect creation and man. Who are you Christians ... the fallen and imperfect fallen creatures sinners; understand this is Satan's kingdom. And he stills influence mankind with sound deception. He even used that tactic on the Messiah, but failed. This is a spiritual battle ... but you are all carnal fixed in the physical world. The spiritual controls the physical. And the church is under Satan's deception. Because most of all Christians are under Satan's delusion and deception ... ignorant about the scriptural laws!!! Here is what the Messiah said about himself ... *John 10:34-36* Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Sons or son, of the Almighty One is not the Almighty One Himself!!! You are NOT your Father!!! Why are they sons??? Adam and the Messiah qualify this only. *Psalm 82:6-7* I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Only two qualified ... Adam before the fall and the Messiah ... both created in the image of their Father, the Almighty One!!! ... Is Adam your God too? How about Satan??? The Spirit Who is the Word came into the world by becoming flesh through His temple of flesh ... His Messiah and son. He came in Person, becoming one with His son to complete His will. He is the authority in His Messiah... who is also His high priest. All this took place during baptism!!! The Messiah was BORN flesh. The only story changed is in the minds of men misinterpreting the scriptures and gospels, which remains the same.
3Moses 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.... Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
Do you understand the difference between and icon or image between an idol? To venerate vs to worship? Becareful than to whom you call as idiot lest it be thrown back at you 3 fold. What is the Quran if not and icon of HIS Word that which is above. Are you trying to refer to exodus? I feel sorry for you Muslims lead astray by a “prophet” that came like 500years AD.
Former Oneness Pentecostal that renounced the heresy of Protestantism. Now a catechumen in the Orthodox Church.
What lead you to Eastern Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism?
Glory to God!
@@atlproductions216 History. The ridiculousness of the papacy, papal forgeries, filioque being added to the creed, absolute divine simplicity, Trinity doctrine, created grace, Vatican 1 vs Vatican 2, doctrinal development, etc. Rome has defected from the Church Christ started.
Glory to God! Welcome home friend!
@@St.MosestheBlack how is the papacy ridiculous? Why can’t you accept the Filioque addition to the creed, when it is consistent with the faith? How is Vatican 1 against Vatican 2?
How is Rome defected from the church Christ started when the Roman See is without error? As stated in the Letter of Pope Agatho at the third council of Constantinople, “the Apostolic Church of Christ, has both in prosperity and in adversity always held and defended with energy; which, it will be proved, by the grace of Almighty God, has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations, but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ, and remains undefiled unto the end, according to the divine promise of the Lord and Saviour himself, which he uttered in the holy Gospels to the prince of his disciples: saying, Peter, Peter, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for you, that (your) faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren”.
Love this channel. Long live Orthodoxy 🙏🏼✝️🇬🇷
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp Muhammad going to hell then for kissing black stone
An icon isn’t an idol
@@User-fc8ppoh yeah what about the arc of the covenant in the old testament which had two angelic beeings above it ? Are you saying all the prophets were wrong about that ? Did they not know what you are quoting right now. It's exactly this problem of human beeings like you who don't understand the holy scriptures and interpret everything wrong. Your sola Scriptura is heretical and it leads you to huge fallacies.
go away heretic@@User-fc8pp
So how is the homosexuality thing working out for the Catholics and Protestants? What makes the Western heresies pursue perversion?@@User-fc8pp
One important concept to consider is the economy of images(oikonomia) that is set up even during the early Israelite history where the Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple had a wealth of images to depict not God, at least at the time, but the Edenic image and the divine reality of heaven(cherubim on the Ark of the covenant).
The Incarnation of God in Christ meant that this new economy of images can be created because Christ in His human nature allows God to be depicted in images because humans are made in the image of God. The fact that most people in the ancient times were illiterate also meant that images of the happenings in the Word of God and the lives of the saints does really help people to understand how to live the Christian life better.
Well yes, it's what the icons represent that's important. Prothestents don't even get that pride flags are actually idolatry because of what they represent. So the real idolators are protestants. In fact they are never done blaming Catholic and Orthodox for their own heresies.
You think all protestants have pride flags? What are you on?😂
@@John-qr9po if you were British, you would probably have heard of the infamous Baptist Aleister Crowley. He was brought up in a family of strict Baptists. Nearly everyone in UK have heard of that man.
another heretic@@John-qr9po
I think it's disingenuous to say protestant the entire time. Because Lutherans tend to be closer to Orthodoxy than say, Baptists.
The real heretics are the zeus worshippers actually and they know it. Odin will come some day and sort it all out. Until then I will warm myself in the knowledge that I am completely right about all of this.
In Catholic Church we speak of the Cherubs(Angels) on Ark of the Covenant as example the Religious use of Icons even in the Old Testament.
Peace be unto you. That was a commandment given by God, but besides that he has said...
Exodus 20:4-6
Complete Jewish Bible
4 You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline. 5 You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love me and obey my mitzvot.
Does God contradict himself?...
Isaiah 55:8-9
Complete Jewish Bible
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not my ways,” says Adonai.
9 “As high as the sky is above the earth
are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
@@Pedro-of4tn Peace of Jesus Christ be with you friend!
I am Catholic so I will be looking at some commentaries on this subject than self interpretation and fall into Protestant Heresy. As Gamaliels principal and 4 Marks of True Church still holds in place as Catholic Church to be the true Faith.
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. - Exodus 20:4
A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing All such images or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary, so far from being forbidden are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Exodus xxv. 15; chap. xxxviii. 7; Numbers xxi. 8, 9; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 18, 19; 2 Chronicles iii. 10. (Challoner)
Protestants insidiously translate "any graven image "though pesel, eidolon, glupton, and sculptile, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, denote a graven thing or idol. They will, however, hardly condemn his majesty for having his representation stamped upon the coin of the nation, nor so many of our wealthy noblemen, who adorn their rooms with the choicest efforts of painting and of sculpture. They know that the object of prohibition is the making and adoring of idols. But they probably wish to keep the ignorant under the stupid delusion of supposing, that Catholics are idolaters, because they have images, and that they themselves are not, though they have them likewise at home; and even in their churches admit the absurd figures of the lion and the unicorn, stretching their paws over the tables of the law, instead of the pious representations of Jesus expiring on the cross, which were set up by their Catholic ancestors. Let them read, and adopt herein just weights and measures, proposed to them by Thorndike, one of their most discerning and moderate teachers. In the mean time, we will assure them, that we abhor all idols; both those made with hands, and those which are formed by the head of heretics, who set up their own fancies and delusions, to be adored instead of the true God. Our general councils of Nice and of Trent define what we ought to believe on this head; and the matter is so fully explained in our catechisms and books of instruction, as well as from our pulpits, that no person can well remain in ignorance. If we perform various actions of respect before pictures, which are also done in honour of God, can any man of sense infer, that we look upon both with equal respect? Do we not read of the people falling down to show respect to the king, and supreme worship to God, by the same act of the body? (Haydock)
Altars and sacrifice we reserve solely for God, as St. Augustine (contra Faust. xx. 21,) well observes. Other indifferent practices must be determined by the intention.
Latria, or supreme worship, can be given to none but the Deity. But we show our respect and veneration for his servants in glory, by an inferior service called Dulia, giving honour to whom honour is due. How profane and impious must the words of the first reformers appear, who, after saying most falsely, that "papists make the Virgin Mary a god, (Luther. postil.) and worship images in heathenish manner "(Melanct. Loc. com.) attribute various fictitious crimes to the blessed Virgin and other saints! (Centuriators of Magdeburg; Calvin) They knew that all the saints abhorred their impiety; and therefore, in revenge, they vilify the saints, and condemn all the doctors and fathers of the Church, since the death of the apostles, as guilty of superstition and idolatry. (Haydock)
"By this occasion, dead creatures, and bloodless half worm-eaten bones, began to be honoured, invocated, and worshipped with divine honour. All which the doctors of the Church not only winked at, but also set forward. "(Centuriators of Magdeburg, C. vi.) What is then become of the promises of God, to teach all the truth by the mouths of his pastors? (Matthew xxviii) Let others judge, whether we ought to pay greater deference to Saints Jerome, Augustine, Gregory, or to Luther, Calvin, and the Centuriators of Magdeburg. But some will even admit that images were commanded by God, chap. xxv. 18 Hence they lay great stress upon the words to thyself; as if all images were forbidden that man should make, without the express sanction of God. So Parkhurst Lexic. But those who are conversant in Hebrew, know that these words have no such import; and if things were inseparable from idolatry, they could not be sanctioned by God. (Haydock)
No creature must be represented as a deity. But sovereign worship, both internal and external, must be given to the great Author of all good, while we abstain from every superstitious act, and from all dealings with the devil and false religions. (Calmet)
Protestants, therefore, who only forbid images, diminish God's law. Were not the idols of Chanaan, Chamos, which represented nothing in nature, also condemned?
- George Leo Haydock 1849
@@Pedro-of4tn Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. - Exodus 20:4
A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing: All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10.
- Richard Challoner 1781
@@Pedro-of4tn I don't see Contradiction in Holy Scriptures.
Peace be with you friend ☺️🙏🏼
Have a Good Day!
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
Icon haters be like "lemme smash this icon of Jesus".
that's not Jesus that's a false image
@@davedave2472 That is Jesus. Are you Protestant or Muslim.
@@balkansportsfanandgamer So Jesus is white?
@@balkansportsfanandgamer All images of Jesus are not him
@@davedave2472 They are just depictions. What religion are you?
Great work!! You know your stuff!!
Greetings from Greece!!🇬🇷☦️
Amen 🙏 🙌 👏 ❤️ ✨️ 🙏. God bless you all.
Jesus may have revealed himself to humanity, but we don’t know exactly what the Father looks like, which some use icons of
@hellohellohellohello127 Hello. There is an essence-energy/power distinction in God:,,For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'' (Romans 1:20). Here His eternal power refers to His energy and the Godhead refers to the essence. God has appeared to men according to His uncreated energy only and in the forms His energy appeared to men. But He has never appeared to men according to His invisible essence.
Jesus said:,,It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.'' (John 6:45-46). He was the only one who has seen the Father:,,And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.'' (John 5:37, KJV).
God had appeared to holy men befire the Incarnation but Jesus is the only Who has seen Him. That is because God has appeared to men and was seen by men only according to His uncreated energy in the form in which it appeared to men but not according to His essence. Jesus is the only One Who has seen the Father because He is the only One Who has seen the essence of the Father which is due to the fact that they bear a common divine essence. That is why the apostle says that the Only-Begotten Son is in the bossom of the Father (John 1:18) which is, in relation with John 6:45-46 and John 5:37, also an argument against the islamic claim that Jesus never said directly or indirectly that He was God.
A creature is able to observe only the uncreated energy of God but not the essence because the essence is beyond and above the energies. Analogically, althouth that analogy is not perfect of course, we see the light that the sun emits but we do not see its nucleaus. Between us and the nucleaus is the outer layer of the sun. The angels and saints in heaven see the divine energy but not the essence which is behind, beyond and above the uncreated divine energy.
His power appeared as light at the Transfiguration, so it is visible:,,And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen *the* *kingdom* *of* *God* *come* *with* *power* . 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: *and* *he* *was* *transfigured* *before* *them* . 3 *And* *his* *raiment* *became* *shining* , *exceeding* *white* *as* *snow* ; so as no fuller on earth can white them . 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.“ (Mark 9:1-4, KJV).
Whem St.Daniel saw God the Father (Daniel 7:9), he did not see the essence but the uncreated energy in the form it appeared and it was in the same form as it appeared at Jesus' trasfiguration:,,I beheld till the thrones were cast down, *and* *the* *Ancient* *of* *days* *did* *sit* , *whose* *garment* *was* *white* *as* *snow* , and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.'' (Daniel 7:9).
His garment was white as snow - just like the raiment of Jesus became white as snow. Therefore, the depiction of God the Father as an old man is a depiction of the form that His uncreated energy appeared in to the holy prophet. It is not a depiction of the essence that no man is or will be able to observe.
I feel like there's a bit of a jump between having a picture and praying to it.
Not praying to the picture, but what it represents, being a saint (who has regained the likeness of God, and therefor is graced with holiness) or Christ Himself.
@@r4ngerr4ge32 Even if I grant that, the logical jump still exists.
@@EmberBright2077 He just told you no one prays to a picture and then you claim the logical jump still exists even though no one prays to pictures.
@@haronsmith8974 Except for the people who do, as well as leaving offerings. I feel like I'm being gaslit every time a Catholic or Orthodox tells me it doesn't happen.
@@EmberBright2077 I doesn't matter what you feel, it's not the Catholic Doctrine so no. If you want to criticize Catholicism, criticize it's Official teachings, not the stuff individual Catholics do.
Former protestant academic, who read St. Gregory of Nyssa and began rejecting Dr. James White, and others. I will likely work on my Ph.D. using apophatic philosophy in my dissertation.
Give what is due to God the Father and of his Son Jesus the Christ for paying with his life for your sins. O precious blood of Jesus Christ save us and the whole world.
Especially because of pope saint Gregory III condemning iconoclasm as a heresy, which is indeed up to him as the pope, making this a victory for orthodoxy as found within Catholicism ;)
There is no Orthodoxy left in Rome
@@hmldjr thats because we use it without a capital O to signify that we are really orthodox, not just the naming convention
you package these mini lessons so well and I love the graphics too
LOVE when your videos show up on my feed! 😊
precisely.
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp You are cherry picking scriptures to fit your belief (You’re also quoting from the inaccurate KJV Bible btw). In Exodus 20, God commands not to create graven images of anything in heaven or on earth. However, just a few chapters later in Exodus 25:18, God instructs Moses to make two golden cherubim statues for the Ark of the Covenant. Similarly, in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands the creation of a brazen serpent on a pole for the healing of the Israelites.
The key to understanding this apparent contradiction lies in God's use of physical objects as instruments of His grace and power. While there are no images of God Himself in the Old Testament, God employs physical representations, like the cherubim and the brazen serpent, as sources of blessing and healing for His people.
In the New Testament, with the Incarnation of Christ, God takes on a physical form. Colossians 1:14-15 emphasizes this by stating: “Christ is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation.” The Greek word for "image" here is "eikon" or "icon." Christ is the ultimate icon because of the Incarnation. In the Incarnation, God becomes physical, establishing a profound and intimate connection between the physical world and God's presence.
Therefore, the condemnation in the Old Testament is directed toward idolatry-the worship of false gods through images-not the mere creation of statues or images. This interpretation highlights the shift from the limited use of images in the Old Testament to a fuller expression of God's physical presence in the New Testament, especially through the Incarnation of Christ.
This is why Catholics and Orthodox use images of God, Mary, and Saints, among others. For Catholics and Orthodox, these images are not objects of worship but serve as reminders of the divine and as aids to prayer and meditation. They are considered to be a part of the rich tradition of the Church, a tradition that emphasizes the incarnation of Christ and the tangible ways in which God's grace is conveyed through physical means. Thus, using images in Catholic and Orthodox worship is seen as a way to deepen one's faith and connection to God and the saints, and it is not considered un-biblical or against God's commandments when understood in this context.
I never understood this because most other religions say they don't worship their idols either, and they are just representations of their God... so what's the difference between idols and icons really?
Icons and idols are the same if icons are worshipped. They worship an image of something or a saint. Worshipping Jesus and worshipping an image of Jesus are 2 different things, respectively. 🙏
None, this is idol worship and clear violation of the 2nd commandment .
@loosestroodle Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says:
,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church.
The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state:
,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV).
They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ.
That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17).
The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“
In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
We "venerate" icons, we do not "worship" icons.
@@florentinaehceru5731 yet you do not provide counter proof of why it is a violation of the second commandment, you should read about the Synagogue in Duras-Europos, it's filled with icons of angels and passages from the Pentateuh.
Orthodoxy is the truth ☝️☦️
All the way! ☦️
The biggest argument pro icons is right after the ten commandments God demanded that Moses put angels on the ark of the covenant. So unless you want to call god a hypocrite statues are fine.
@proudamerican4345 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says:
,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church.
The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state:
,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV).
They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ.
That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17).
The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“
In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
Weak, patently weak. But when you're tied by dogma to a losing position, grasping at straws is the result.
@@user-gv9my3jy4b Hello. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as a god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent. The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to vow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") which is used towards God (e.g. in John 4.24) is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church.
@@user-gv9my3jy4b Really? Did God not command Moses to make a bronze snake on a staff to heal the Israelites in the desert as they where being bit by snakes? It sounds like you have been miss informed, and your counter argument is weak.
@@proudamerican4345 I think the keyword here is "command". God commanded Moses/Israelites to make the churubims SPECIFICALLY for the ark. God commanded Moses to make a bronze snake staff for a SPECIFIC purpose. It doesn't mean everyone should now make anything and bow or kiss to it.
I love your cross necklace 👌 💯
Yup!!! ... A symbol of anti Christ itself!!! ... ignorance is bliss.
Same here. I was wondering of possessing one.🙄
do you know where his is from by any chance brother
Kind of a vague reason to still have icons I think this argument wasn’t good.
I dont think that icons are necessarily the problem Protestants have. The issue begins when they are "Venerated" that turns the image into an idol so yes its true that the old testament does instruct the building of images of cherbium but never is it stated to then venarate the cheribums. The 2nd commandment does specify that we should not "bow" to these images, and that's exactly what is done during veneration.
@elnathan2930 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says:
,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church.
The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state:
,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV).
They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ.
That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17).
The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“
In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
you are confusing veneration with worship, we cannot worship cherubims as gods, but we can venerate cherubims as angels of God.
your necklace is beautiful brother, can you link where you got it ❤️
Icons are so comforting and special ✝️✝️✝️
I have an icon corner in every room of my domicile
Anyone keep a photo of someone they love? It's the same thing.
Except you dont know them, except they are venerated, except they are in churches, except they are required to be kissed, except they cause schism in believers, except they are painted and may not represent reality like a photo, except they are asked to intercede for us, except some pray to them, except they are not simply pictures but windows to those whom have passed on which people believe they are present through, they are quite different.
@@YourStylesGeneric321 No idea what you are trying to say
@@catholicarrows Photos of loved ones do not equal religious iconography. It is not the same thing.
@@YourStylesGeneric321 It's the exact same thing.
@@YourStylesGeneric321so I used to think similarly when thinking of praying to saints. My question to you: is God the God of the living or the God of the dead? The saints are not dead. Christ is not dead. Christians never die. I’ve never met the saints. Are they not in Christ the same as I? Are we not a part of the same body?
You forgot to mention the most important part. Anyone who rejects to have icons is anathema, making it an essential doctrine, necessary for salvation, and hence part of the Gospel the apostles taught.
where does this write in the bible? 😅
Idolators will always defend their idolatry and will always do so with lies, if they believed the truth they wouldnt need the idols.
I Know, I was orthodox 28 yrs. they kiss and bow down to the icons. If this is not idolatry then what is? 😅 And many other pagan customs that they practices in the church to make money
@@sailorbelle2265Christianity and all religions as a whole adopted some part of paganism. this includes catholicism and protestantism. not just Orthodoxy. so dont use this trash excuse as a way to slander and throw shit at my Church.
if you think its idolatry then read the Bible first. God Himself has an image, and we are made in His image.
ur not only opposing the human race, but God Himself.
@@sailorbelle2265Hello. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent. The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to vow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") which is used towards God (e.g. in John 4.24) is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church, but not in the meaning of to givie divine honour.
Leaving the Church by a member of hers puts the one leaving in the state to the unforgivable sin (Hebrews 10.28-29 in relation with Matthew 12.32).
By and large, the issue that iconoclasts had and still have was/is not depicting Jesus, but the veneration of those images.
Venerating anyone but God or any image at all is in clear violation of the 2nd commandment. If this is doesn’t violate that commandment what does?
so you dont respect ur mother or ur father?
what about God’s image? have you not read genesis?
@Leodosius
I am curious as to what passage in Genesis you are expecting me to relate back to this topic that would justify your point of view, when it comes to venerating man and making graven images. Please enlighten me.
And for honoring my mother and my father I honor them by obeying them, by not living in open defiance to them and honoring their teaching as an adult. I don’t burn firewood, but my parents do. So even though I’m married and live with my wife I go over and help my dad get his firewood. I do not, however, set pictures of them around my house to venerate them as part of my worship of God.
@@calebstevens4658 Hello. Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship substitutes theworship that must be given only to the true God. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says:
,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church.
The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state:
,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , *not* *having* *received* *the* *promises* , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 *But* *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : *wherefore* *God* *is* *not* *ashamed* *to* *be* *called* *their* *God* : for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV).
They died in faith but now they desire a better, heavenly country, i.e. they in a conscious state now. They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not mean that they are not in heaven now (Hebrews 12:22-23 in relation with Luke 23:43 says their spirits are in heaven) but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are not yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ.
That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
The prohibition in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 has a different meaning and is not absolute because if it was, the prophecy in Revelation 3:9 would not be fulfilled. The intercession of the saints does not mean that they have acquited divine attributes but it is possible due to the Holy Spirit Who continues to abide with them forever, i.e. after their death, too (John 14:16-17).
The Holy Virgin Mary is referred to as a Queen that would stand at the right hand of God in Psalm 45:,,Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: *upon* *thy* *right* *hand* *did* *stand* *the* *queen* *in* *gold* *of* *Ophir* . 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: *the* *virgins* *her* *companions* *that* *follow* *her* *shall* *be* *brought* *unto* *thee* .“
In relation with Hebrews 12:22-23 and Luke 23:43, that prophecy is already fulfilled.
@@calebstevens4658veneration is just showing respect, you’re not worshipping the icon. That is much different than having a wooden or metal idol and worshiping that thing. The apostle Luke made icons, he was the first to do it. One of the other apostles was buried with icons. Don’t you think those who lived with Jesus for years would know if it’s idolatry or not. This matter had been settled for nearly 1000 years did all those Christian’s before Protestantism who had icons committing idolatry and weren’t saved?
@@calebstevens4658Your entire argument just got debunked
does anyone know anything about iconoduls who scraped wood of the icon of Christ to add it in chalice of Eucharist? i heard they were considered heretics
Lol, even the Ottomans, Safavids, Moghuls and pretty much every other Islamic Turco-Persianate dynasty used and venerated icons as well.
about the nature of the Christ plzzzzzzz🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Wasn’t the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787?
@@telosbound Ah, interesting
How does this not show the church fathers all agreed? You had various councils condemning and accepting
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
Background music pls!
city of the fallen - light from darkness
@@stephenn8 thx!
I don't know about that. I see Catholics kissing, bowing, offering food/anything, etc. to icons/statues of Mary and/or the saints. Worse, some would even go to a specific place (provinces, miles away) just to get a glimpse or touch of the icon/statue of a specific "version" of Jesus or Mary parading through town.
Doesn't looked like just "veneration" or respect to me. Very concerning...
we are Orthodox, not Catholics. Catholics have ended up worshipping Icons, while we merely respect icons.
@@player1playforfun That's good to hear. I wouldn't say still that Catholics in general do this but maybe it's just in my country. It looks like a case of not knowing what actually their church teaches.
@@player1playforfunyou are a fool, orthodox do the same thing. 99% of the time when eastern orthodox are bashing Catholics they don’t realize they do the same things
what is the song playing in the background ?
Many early christians from the 1st and 2nd century greatly discouraged icon usage and religious imagery in general. Examples could be Tertullian and Origen, but there are others. The common argument of these early iconoclasts was that we worship a God of Spirit, but the pagans worship gods of image and statue. Many early christians did not use images, and many church fathers rejected images, and those that didn't specify that images were only for teaching purposes, never to be used in worship. The earliest recorded church opinions are against images and image veneration.
you are a liar and do not know the theology of the true church. these men were western teachers and blasphemous
No they didnt, theres literally icons dating to the 1st century.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded There are 'images' that can be dated around the 1st century. This does not imply they were venerated, nor specifies any particular use of the images. It is all speculation and I think it is reading the doctrine into history rather than being historically honest. Read the early church fathers, the earliest attestations are against image "veneration" but not particularly against images, or they are against images in worship entirely.
@@yannibelousov3204 No early Church Father was against images. Early Church Fathers didnt support a specific Church, There was no schism at the time. So wether you like it or not, Icons are a Christian practice.
Even The Bible itself says Christ has an Image and that He made us in His image, Therefor by denying icons, You are denying God.
If all images are bad, that means a picture of you is idolatrous as well.
Churches, And Crosses are also Icons. Educate yourself, You protestant.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Clement was against images stating that works of art are to never be sacred or divine. Tertullian was seriously aniconic as I stated. Augustine said that no one knows what Jesus nor his mother looked like. And Hypolitus was against the appearance of "sacred images" which he called idols, though he did not forbid images or scupltures entirely. Gregory promoted the use of images in teaching but against their use in liturgical practices. And the whole Luke made the first icon, its a complete rumor that appeared in the 6th century at the earliest. Like augustine said, no one knew what Jesus or Mary looked like. And with the rhetoric, its uncouth, I do not attack you nor insult you, I state my claims with respect and evidence. I don't claim you uneducated nor ignorant, it is not of the Spirit to be so vilifying in your response.
As protestant, I don't think iconography is idolatry but catholics use of statues really make me uncomfortable
Man, your editing has really improved.
As a Protestant I used to see icons as bad. But icons are just symbols that represent the person but it’s understood that it’s not the actual person. We Protestants love the cross we understand that the cross is not God but sometimes we hold the cross in prayer or put up the cross in our homes as symbol of our faith or wear a chain with the cross. The Icons of Jesus and saints are just symbols that represent them. That’s reasonable to me.
Hey I got omitted a sin by christ where he told me not to make that mistake again with a vision of the person. A year later I was in between jobs and was singing and praising and praying while under spiritual attack when the lord of hosts came and asked me," my friend what do you need." And after received a mark on my forehead and have seen angelic hosts as well as disembodied lights that have both spoken to me and through me would anyone here know anything on that subject bc I'm a Lil confused
Sorry if i may not be much of a help, but, i believe there is a passage in revelation that talks about an "mark".
I'm sure you know by now rev 13-14, specifically the passage 16-17 and 18.
16: "The second beast made it so that all, big and small, rich and poor, free and slaves, received an mark on the right hand or the forehead."
17: "And nobody can buy nor sell if it doesn't have the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of it's name."
18: "Here it's required to understand: whom is smart, count the number of the beast; it is an number of men; the number is six hundred and sixty six."
Again, sorry if i cannot be much of a help, but, i think that mark could've been the mark of the beast. Unless i could be wrong.
Dpeictions seem alright and no church would look half as good without them, but my prayers are reserved for CHRIST.
Gonna cite the warnings against trying to contact the dead, and yes the saints are alive, but that whole witch or Endor event would seem to favor my position
I think I see a little bit of misconception here.
Yes as an Orthodox our prayers are reserved for God
Intercession means asking for prayers not praying.
I think the conflict is due to the understanding of what prayer is but my above statements are understandable to u also.
@@ionictheist349why cant the protestards understand this?
i am very interested to learn of catholic and other orthodox theology's. im more of a charismatic protestant myself i think, and i just finished a year at bible college
im just confused why alot of these things are accepted like weird outfits and ceremonies like having a pope alot of normal orthodox things seem like there going directly against gods word
This is one thing that holds me back to join Catholicism/ orthodoxy. The icons and the statues . It’s probably because the way I grew up , but it seems to me to be idolatry . I understand the arguments , I just need to study more .
Yeah that's my beef too. Especially in Mexico with the Virgin of Guadalupe
@@GrammarPaladin yes it seems like it’s obviously idolatry but they argue it’s not . Like having statues , then asking them to pray for us to God . I understand they say it’s veneration and intercession but this combined can be easily idolatry . I do need to study more , for this is the oldest Christian church , although a lot of traditions were adopted throughout the early centuries
@@fredericorodriguez808 Im Orthodox and Ive never prayed to intercessors, to God alone always I pray
As for icons, theyre useful as an artpiece and expression, but u dont use em to worship
When I pray, theres no icons or statues or anything like that
What I don't understand is why did this all happen in the 8 or 9th century? Did Jesus say that we should use imagery of him or any prophet or apostles in prayer or worshipping? Or to disregard the commandment because he came to us in the flesh? Again, why did the issue take 800+ years to be addressed? Huge issue...
The issue I have against icons is that people take them too seriously. I have no issues with art and depicting the messiah, but it’s important to know that having icons can easily lead to idolatry, which, unfortunately, I see all to often in Catholic and orthodox churches
explain how
The icons and the statues are not worshiped as God. What they represent is venerated.
where's the pinned comments?
Humans are the living images of God. We don’t need figurines and paintings to depict God, and we’ve been told not to make images (molded/engraved idols) of God.
Respectfully,
An unapologetic iconoclast.
Sure there are many things that humans don’t essentally “need” but they can help. I can live with no arms but trust me it does help!
@@proteinpapi7595 That’s not a good argument. Icons of God _aren’t_ helpful, they detract. YOU are the image of God. When you live as the _living_ God intended, you fulfill your intended function as a _living_ display of the glory of the _living_ God. When we - the images of God - make un-living images of God, we are simply making shoddy counterfeits of ourselves.
God has an image, therefor ur opposing His, and to oppose His image is to oppose Him.
whered u get the necklace,
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp okay we gonna do this lol. What was the ark of the covenant in the OT?
@@User-fc8pp was idolatry the images of the cherubim on the ark
I believe this is a good argument for representing christ in images, but i think its incomplete in terms of defending image veneration. May you provide any extra arguments for image veneration?
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8ppfunny how Solomon's temple is filled with images of Cheribums and Seraphims
When Exodus states thou shalt not make images from heaven above 🤣
Comes down to how the 10 commandments are numbered.
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp what you need to understand is what was the purpose of idolatry in the surrounding nations? If the "ye shall have no others God's before me" is part of he same commandment..it's worships like the other nations
@@User-fc8pp is making the images of the cherubim on the ark idolatry
"Yeah, I know that Scripture says we're to have no graven images, but we've come up with a really good reason for ignoring that."
So God went against His own commandment and commanded graven images in the ark of the covenant & also in the curtains/veil of the Holy Place in the Old Testament?
The Scriptures say you ought to obey the tradition passed down from the Apostles not just by writting but also by word.
It also speaks of authority in the Church, bishops, and deacons etc. what Bishop do you have? Is your Bishop from the Line of the Apostles?
Jesus said you must eat His Body and Blood or you have no life in you, you dont have this either.
Protestanism is a mess full of division and heresies. I say this as an ex-Protestant of 10 years. Thank God for His Church! ☦️
@@lauramatos1181 Wow. You sure there wasn't anything else you wanted to squeeze into one comment? Since the video, and my original comment, had to do with images, I'll stick to that.
No. God did not go against His own commandment in regard to the ark of the covenant. I'd encourage you to go back and re-read the commandment. It specifically says, "You shall not make "for yourself" an idol, or any likeness..." That phrase, "for yourself" is pretty important, don't you think? When the Israelites obeyed God's command in the construction of the ark, they were not making an image for themselves, they were making an image in obedience to the command of God. And those commands are few and far between, perhaps having only to do with the tabernacle and the temple. the point of my original comment is that those who venerate images make the second commandment meaningless. Every defense of images must, of necessity, begin with a discourse concerning why the second commandment doesn't really mean what it clearly says, it doesn't mean what the Jews clearly thought it meant, and it doesn't mean what the early church believed it to mean, at least up to Eusebius in the 4th century. Given the fact that it was a point of controversy for many centuries after that, I hope you won't reply with any silliness about the universal understanding of the church.
But I'd be happy to hear further about why the 2nd commandment doesn't really mean what it says.
@@jim6690 God doesn't command us to do what he tells us is sin. And no icons are not just for ourselves but they are gir and honor God since they honor the person he represents along with his best followers ❤
@@robertkolinsky1286 Again, go back and read the text. The command was not "Don't make images". The command was, "Don't make images 'for yourselves'." As for icons not just being for ourselves...you don't get to make that decision. When the Lord says, "Don't make images for yourselves", it's not a matter of who it is made for, but rather, it is a matter of who determines whether or not it is made. You're thinking of the phrase, "for yourself" in the wrong way. God says, "Create them when and how and where I tell you, but don't just go off and do it for yourselves, in your own agency, according to your own decisive will." And apart from those things having to do with the tabernacle and the temple, God has nowhere commanded anyone to make "sacred" images.
The prohibition of the second commandment is specifically in the context of worship. I would think one would at least be given a moment of pause when one reads, on the one hand, the very words of God prohibiting images, and then, on the other hand, reads the anathemas declared at Nicaea II pronounced upon those who refuse to venerate images. I wonder. Do those anathemas include the believing, Old Covenant remnant? Does it include the early church at least to the 4th century? Are do they only kick in in the 8th century, when a council was necessary because after 800 years this was now an issue of disagreement?
@jim6690 Excellent, my way of reasoning as well.
The second commandment is clear enough and should be taken at face value.
The first commandment is worshipping the right God, the second commandment is worshipping God the right way.
I disagree. Idolatry by another name is still idolatry.
how are icons idolatry?
Become muslim if you hate icons so much
@@Forty-JuanI was bout to say the same thing
Iconoclasts hate art
They also hate music
may God warm your heart up, it seems cold as stone.
Icons are not idolatry
When Emperor Leo III condemned the veneration of images in 726 AD, the defenders of the cult of images in the East found their only support in the papacy. On pain of deposition and even death, Pope Gregory publicly condemned the step made by the emperor (Dvornik 93-94). The seventh ecumenical council (787 AD) was summoned to solve this issue and Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople defended its validity by invoking the office the Pope held,
“Without them [the Romans], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned in a preliminary fashion by the canons and ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved, or abrogated; for they are the ones, in fact, who possess the principate of the priesthood and who owe this distinction to the leader of the Apostles” (Nicephorus, Apologeticus Pro Sacris Imaginibus, 25).
For the eastern theologians at this time, the Church could not assert or develop universal doctrine or call an ecumenical council without the Bishop of Rome to preside over it.
rome isnt the true church, never was never will be.
THANK YOU - and I hope you keep these clips coming to educate people... more power to you...+++
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
@@User-fc8pp All is well, AND you also need to take this in its TIME and to WHOM GOD said it - similar misunderstanding and tactics Muslim use to confuse people and weekend the faith, by taking words from one book and another words from another book and say "here you go how can you believe such contradictions." the time and the place make all the difference. +++
@@User-fc8pp we have no idols. Lol
We have icons
U should learn to differenciate between idols and icons
So it was not God's command to make idols about him but a group of humans who agreed? How can we trust this group of humans who can just make their own laws and implement them?
Glory to God ❤
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
All glory to God, not to saints… I have a hard time understanding how this is not idolatry. To God be all Glory so why give glory to saints? Maybe this isn’t the point of venerating saints but it is a thin line to venerate a saints and giving glory to something that is not God.
When we give glory to something other than God is that not idolatry? I’m just trying to understand
Amén, all glory to God. And venerating saints help us to have a deeply and stronger understanding of how God loves his sons. to me at least it has helped me. Every time I have a question about theology or about the church there is always a saint that explains and answers my questions in such deeply manner. And having a statue of saints helps me remember their love for God and encourages me
@@kike0260 This I can understand, thank you for answering!
And so I have another question about praying to the saints why is this a thing? When we have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father who are omnipotent and can answer all prayers?
@@ZealousEZRA
Saints are "prayed to" so that we may ask them for intercessory prayer. It is an opportunity for the Saint to continue to glorify God by praying to Him for our intercession. We ask the Saints to pray for us because they have displayed the properties and characters in alignment with the Holy Spirit and thus embodying the guidance Christ gave to us. Recall the psalm in which we are told "a broken and humble heart, God will not despise." Truly the prayers of the righteous are most pleasant to our Triune God. A Saint in the Church of Heaven, by their nature, is one with the Holy Spirit and humble heart.
@@ZealousEZRAby "our intercession" I meant intercession on our behalf by Christ the Living God. Christ is the one interceding into our lives on our behalf in part by our own request and that of the Saints.
@@SeraphimVolker this all sounds very beautiful but where is the basis for this in scripture? In scripture I can find that the Holy Spirit can intercede for us in prayer but nowhere yet have I found that anyone is praying to saints or any of the old prophets for example Moses or King David. So when and why did people start praying to saints instead of letting the Holy Spirit intercede as it is written? God be with you!
I haven't examine texts yet but from reading the bible myself and reading online explanations and from pastors when I was still a Pentecostal. Regarding the old testament, the Jews were destroying images of the Hebrew God and/or had wiped out other factions that claim to worship him because of the said usage of idols...
Now, I don't think I remember any depictions of the Jews worshipping God in a way as God commanded while bowing into his images. If anything, that time when Moses broke the tablets those Jews were claiming they're worshiping God yet the image is in a different form and maybe the practice of that worship style deviates from the way God had commanded so (because it could be Hathor or really Baal, take note both God and Baal has same hero story of being like storm/thunder deities that defeated a great chaos depicted as the sea or dragon that lurks in the sea yet, if you read the bible and the history of worship of both you'd see the difference).
Now my argument regarding the icons is that who would have any idea how the saints and the Lord would've looked like? in their ancient times paper was still very expensive and sculptures requires some legal procedures and some money, so it would make sense to have an icon since who knows people might say they're worshiping Jesus yet whom they're portraying is the image of Mithras
the holy supper is an icon too. right?
Wdym???
It has not it is
But is there Scripture that supports using icons
Jesus Christ is not only the Word of God but also Icon of God scriptures says Eικων it says in the original language
Yes learn Greek and not use a hillbilly language
TGSNT music???????
Orthodoxy must mean something else if it doesn't mean holding to the traditions and teachings of Judaism.
judaism and Christianity arent the same thing lmao
icons have dated back to the 1st century.
Christianity does not retain everything Jewish. The Jewish requirement for male circumcision was done away with in the very beginning when the apostles were still living.
🙏🙏🙏👏👏👏👏👏🇪🇹🙏🙏
There were actually several plagues and lost battles that triggered Iconoclastic behavior. Islam was just one of them.
Cmon tell us how it was resolved?? 😌😌
Much murder, exactly what Jesus warned would happen. "THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THOSE WHO PUT YOU TO DEATH, WILL BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING A SERVICE TO GOD."
@@wojo9732 it was not by murder dummy. At least learn historyy
Icons are idolatrous if they are worshipped. If they are treated as simple paintings, it's all good.
Nobody even worships icons
@@adude849 meaning, they exalt the images of the saints. The saints, including Mary, and including the angels of God, are not to be exalted. God is the only one to be worshipped.
@@tsvetip Yes we agree, so whats ur point then. And how did u think that we worship them in first place???🤔
Yeah you needed to express Jesus and His life in art to remember him throughout history and culture. But it’s still quite out of hand. But so is the spread of islam.
Out of hand how so? I guess people don’t use images and icons correctly but that’s on the individual. And islams spread is not out of hand lol. It’s just that Christianity doesn’t actively try to spread as much as they do. Islam if full of holes and silliness
@@suppaman12
You’re sort of right, but Basis of my claims on muslim spreading out of hand:
Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population over the next two decades - an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims, compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion. - pew research center.
Basis of out of hand icons for Christians being out of hand: I live in the Philippines. Come here during the procession of the nazarene, I’ll show you.
@@TheVineOfChristLives at least they are only growing because of birth rate, not because they are convinced by that religion. Many Ex Muslims are in the closet, because they fear persecution. Especially in Iran. According to Iran 99% of their population is Muslim, but it is estimated that 70% don't identify as Muslim. Leaving Islam is punishable by death under Sharia Law.
@@TheVineOfChristLivesjust gotta say the "growth" of Islam isn't from conversion but rather reproduction. They have a lot of children. However I heard an Imam state that 95% of converts leave within 5-10 years approximately. So it's not really a religion that's growing in the sense of "truth" but rather by reproduction.
Even so, appeal to majority is a fallacy and not really a valid argument to truth.
@@dustins382 where? what is his numbers coming from? he a data scientist?
Iconoclasts: Don't worship a picture! That's idolatry!
Jews: *Let's take this one step further* :troll:
Amen. I can picture that!😅
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
So they decided that what some bald guys say is more important than what God said?
God told Moses to put icons on the ark of the covenant
@@uchennanwogu2142 yes, God told moses
If God says to do that then it's not a sin
@@koxbalon ok, icons arent sin
@@uchennanwogu2142 it is
@@koxbalon God allowed icons, search up the Soloman temple interior, full of icons
Pinned comment is missing
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
why the cherubim where made on the ark
You don't know what that means because you use a heretical trnslation of the Bible
“So God created mankind in His own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of God He created them; male and female He created them.”
I've been attending an orthodox church out of curiosity, having been embroiled in his debate online for 2 years. I am a thorough objective thinker. I decided to see if all the accounts of 'i went to an orthodox church and wow!! I felt so in touch with..." Ect were valid. I attend in good faith, twice a week, vespers and liturgy. Each time i go, i feel more and more separated from God than before. As someone who was truly born again, at 35, after thinking i was a Christian my entire life.. i need absolutely nothing to feel God right here beside me every moment of every day. Prayer, reading the Bible, sitting before God, listening to the Discovering the Jewishs jesus ministry..they are all ways to experience God.. the stuff ppl do in an orthodox church just seems ridiculous to me, i stand there and ppl incessantly cross themselves like 100 times in 1 hour, little children with no concept of what is what kiss icons at the behest of their parents.. and i wont even get into the things I've heard, by larping anglo saxon Converts, which is 98% of the church I've attended.. the whole scene from my personal experience feels devoid, not 'full'. These, primarily neophyte converts will straw man protestantism by using ppl like joel orsteen, or a church that affirms homosexuality, as if it represents true reformed Christianity. When you are trying to defend a position where dogmas have painted you into a corner, your arguments won't be coherent. This is the position of several tenants of orthodoxy.
So being orthodox means departing from Jewish traditions? 😢
And when do you keep Jewish traditions?
Veneration is not the same as Latria.
Ya. Jesus never said anything about. Jesus says, i did not come here to abolish the law, but to fulfill. Means. No grave images of heaven above, anything on earth, or anything under the earth. Nothing... Oh ye of little faith! When sre you going to put your trust in the Lord Jesus instead of your idols, the way you kiss them. Shame on you. Be careful. Jesus is always with us. And lo, I am with you always. God bless
there were images in the temple, there was no problem
thanks for all the support yall.
As it is written:
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
So what's your conclusion? Is it a sin
@hannahgetaneh000 bowing down to images is an abomination to the Lord.
I wouldn't smash or destroy any religious artwork that's not what I am saying. But bowing down to images is an abomination. It's one of the commandments God repeated the most throughout His Word, and it the most common sin of the Israelites which they kept falling back into.
Bow down to the Lord our God alone. You shall not bow down to images.
@CatholicChristSaves938 very good! I agree, and "picture story" is an appropriate use of images.
But bowing down to images is strictly forbidden by the Lord.
Exodus 25:18- [God commands to Moses],
“Make two cherubim of gold(graven images of angels), .. at the two ends of the mercy seat “. The ban on graven images is for pagans who can’t tell the difference ( and of course, neither can Protestants).
@@xrendezv0usx-. Men actually bow to their fiancé on their knees when proposing marriage. I suppose Protestantism would call your wife an idol ?
So it wasn’t something that the apostles taught them. It was brought in the 4th century and normalized in the 8th century, well after the apostles died. Jesus is everything guys!! We don’t need to pray to dead saints or venerate icons. He alone is the One who is worthy of our worship.
read about the ark of the covenant design and the design of the temple, this is all ancient
@@uchennanwogu2142Yeah it was commanded By God himself and it had 0 icons or graven images of prophets or Christ the messiah
@@rsns776 look up the temple and arc
@@rsns776both the Ark and the Temple had statues in them...
First of all, decorations and forms of artistic expression should not be condemned because they are records of human civilization
And second, intercession prayers are actually not mandatory because even the most devout Saints did not depend on intercession
And if you don't respect the Saints then you hate Jesus too (John 15:18)
Humans will always try to justify their sin to ease their conscience, but the Word of God could not he any clearer, Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exactly
Bunch of heretics trying to justify their falsehood
Judaizer and Islamizers will also make excuses to justify their heresies
Don't eat pork and practice Circumcision then
Ok@@NoQuestionsAskedd
@@WARLORDDOMIf you refuse to venerate the Icons of Jesus then you reject Jesus indirectly
Whoever does not venerate Images shall be rejected on the Day of Resurrection when Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you"
@@NoQuestionsAskedd we've see about that.
The trinitarians will give muslims the world in a silver platter
Still don't understand this
Deuteronomy 4:
Beware of Idolatry
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth.
Moses had to say that to the people because God knows them. Look at all the images they made for themselves although none of them saw our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ or His mother, Mary.
So to the people kneeling and praying to icons: Who are you praying to?
you dont pray to the icons
It seems a textbook violation of the 2nd Commandment -- not to create the images (I am an artist, myself!) but to then venerate the images... that is where it becomes a violation.
@sketchbook1 Hello. The Second Commandment in Exodus 20:4-6 refers to the prohibition of bowing down to images of idols, i.e. objects of veneration who receive divine worship, i.e. their worship which is given by people who do not know the Triune God, substitutes the worship that must be given only to Him. But the veneration of the saints is different because it is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 which says:
,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,προσκυνήσουσιν“ (inf. proskuneo) (verse 9) which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship'' whose original meaning is ,,to bow down“. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning of to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church. Hence the depiction of the saints in the Church. So, if a church rejects the veneration of the saints, it cannot be the true Church. By true Church I am referring to the Orthodox Church but that is a different topic.
That the saints intercede for us before God when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they have become omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, *that* *he* *may* *abide* *with* *you* *for* *ever* ; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
Hello. The veneration is given to the prototype, not to its image. Idolatry means giving divine honour to the object of honour instead of giving it to the True God, i.e. the one is honoured as god instead of the True God. Nobody considers the saints to be gods, let alone instead of God. They are not omnipresent but their intercession in the sense of praying for us before God is possible due to that that the Holy Spirit abides with them forever (John 14.16-17). Only Christ isn intercesoor as a Redeemer (2 Timorhy 1.5-6). The veneration of saints is referred to in Revelation 3.9 where the verb ,,proskuneo" - to bow down, to worship (the literal meaning of worship was ,,to bow down") is used towards the Church., i.e. to the saints who are members of the Church, but not in the meaning of to give divine honour. ,,Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.'' (Revelation 3.9).
@@Yasen.Dobrev If the veneration is given to the prototype and not to the image, then the images are unnecessary.
Also, if they are not needed for true veneration of God and Jesus Christ, they can only serve to tempt towards idolatry.
The early church had NO images, and talked about the absence of them in our churches to be the great sign of our difference between us and the pagans.
@@sketchbook1 Thank you for the reply. There are images in the early Church yet in the catacombs. That they are not needed for veneration, is a subjective conclusion. In Origen’s Contra Celsum which is used in defense of iconoclasm, he rejects the images and says that our souls are altars. But he rejects only the pagan images because otherwise altars must be rejected, too. But St.Paul refers to the Christian altar in Hebrews 13.10. There is a distinction of power (energy) and Godhead (the nature) in God (Romans 1.20)). We receive power (Acts 1.8, 2 Peter 1.3). As there cannot be new sacrifices after Christ's (Hebrews 9.24-26), the partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1.4) which is not literal because noone can become God by essence (Isaiah 43.10), refers to the partaking of the Holy Eucharist as His True Body and Blood because only the True human nature of our Lord Jesus Christ is hypostatically united with the divine nature. So the metousiosis (transubstantiation) which is a mystery is true and its rejection shows that the Spirit of Truth is not outside the Church (I mean the Orthodox Church which is a different topic) but is received by the prayer of the priesthood (Acts 8.14-17), hence the priesthood with an apostolic succession is necessary for salvation.
@@Yasen.Dobrev I would agree that narrative images have always been around-- I myself am an artist and find them valuable and spiritually edifying.
You lost me, however, when you defend any priesthood besides the Priesthood of all believers, which is what Peter talked about in Scripture.
You've gotten yourself so wrapped in human wisdom and tradition, there seems no way to show you how unbiblical your positions are. Unspiritual, too.
"Partake in the divine nature and escape the corruption of the world caused by evil desires" is biblical, but Peter said it comes through the "great and precious promises..."
Icons are idolatry. Get over it.
Nope.
Yep@@misterauctor7353
The Jews also had icons…
Pinned comment?
Just like Statues
Well it's still idolatry.....
Jesus Christ is the Icon of God says scripture Εικών
false.
That sounds like a total non-sequitur. Just because the incarnation happened with God the Son does not follow that we have whole sale devotion to icons of finite beings.
Temple had icons
@@ShaharIshog-lx7pi which icons were those?
@@jasons5904 of cherubim
@@ShaharIshog-lx7pi and they didn’t venerate them…
What would you expect from wicked heretics such as the “Orthodox” Church. God allowed them to fall into heresy after they split from the true church, heresies such as Palamas and his Palamite heresy.
There is no such thing as ,,Byzantine" empire.... thats a nickname.
Its called Eastern Rome Empire guys....
Byzantine is a BULGARIAN NICKNAME from 16th century, later adopted by science, to make difference between Western and Eastern rome.
..so? means the same thing. why do you care?
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Why would you use a nickname and not the original? Thats the question here.
@@goshu7009 well let me answer
heres an example.
you have a cool restaurant named “phil’s clams”
phil used to sell fries, now he sells clams.
in this case, he sells both.
so using either words is fine.
@@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Anyway... Eastern Rome will continue to be Rome...... btw, do you know who represents modern day ,,Eastern Rome" - thats Russia :)
@@goshu7009 so how come “eastern rome” spoke greek?
This breaks the second commandment. Full stop.
Honestly, it shouldn't be this difficult to just stop. Why is it so difficult to let go of the pictures and statues? Shouldn't you rather argue that since it seems to break the 2nd Commandment, that it's better to just let go? What is binding you to those things so hard that you will fight tooth and nail to keep it?
does the cherubim on the ark goes against that ?
Is that what they teach you in Billy Bob's bible college?
After the death of Adam and Sheath People began to make small icons of great people to venerate and remember them but the same icons was later turned into idol worship and during the period of Noah God sent the floods to destroy the ultimate sin idolatry. If the Orthodox Christians can't see that truth and learn from the history of prophets plz carry on
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
The Most High makes it clear. Anything that is not a perfect representation of Yeshua is not worthy of worship, and only Yeshua Himself is a perfect representation.
John 4:24: "God is spirit, and the ones who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." Jesus Himself commanded this.
Listen to Him
so why cherubim where order to be made on the ark
You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
Refute the counter arguments provided in the Second Council of Nicaea instead against this heresy of Islam and Judaism that states Image making is Sin
icons are not carved images- they are painted images.
very different.
@@player1playforfun nope
@@AncientElderit is though, look into different translations, it's implied carving objects
It's appropriate to depict him yes but you never explained why it's appropriate to venerate them
Revelation 3.6-10 - ,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works - behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it - for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; *behold* , *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , *and* *to* *know* *that* *I* *have* *loved* *thee* . 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
The explicitly says no graven idole or images. The orthodox church is wicked. I left the this because i didnt know any better. I read the BIBLE KJV and the truth shall make you free.
To bad there was no KJV till 1600🤣🤣
And you are a heretic and blasphemer. Your religion only dates to 1600
KJV is literally protestard slop. ur church is just a branch of catholicism.
And at the end ... We see Catholics worshiping statues and portraits of saints. Placing flowers, incense, ... candles ... praying to it, bowing down to them, kissing its feet, carrying those statues around in a procession. Drink or using water in wells where these broken statues are thrown into ... and so on ...
WE WORSHIP THE ALMIGHTY ONE *IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH!!!*
FOR THE ALMIGHTY ONE *IS SPIRIT AND TRUTH!!!*
Evil prevails again, just as it did Adam. The story doesn't change ... does it?!!!
History changed when the Son of God took human flesh and entered his creation.
@@filida ... You guys are blind sheep being lead astray ... to be slaughtered.
Satan already deceived Adam ... who was a perfect creation and man.
Who are you Christians ... the fallen and imperfect fallen creatures sinners; understand this is Satan's kingdom. And he stills influence mankind with sound deception.
He even used that tactic on the Messiah, but failed.
This is a spiritual battle ... but you are all carnal fixed in the physical world. The spiritual controls the physical. And the church is under Satan's deception.
Because most of all Christians are under Satan's delusion and deception ... ignorant about the scriptural laws!!!
Here is what the Messiah said about himself ...
*John 10:34-36*
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Sons or son, of the Almighty One is not the Almighty One Himself!!!
You are NOT your Father!!!
Why are they sons??? Adam and the Messiah qualify this only.
*Psalm 82:6-7*
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Only two qualified ... Adam before the fall and the Messiah ... both created in the image of their Father, the Almighty One!!! ... Is Adam your God too? How about Satan???
The Spirit Who is the Word came into the world by becoming flesh through His temple of flesh ... His Messiah and son. He came in Person, becoming one with His son to complete His will. He is the authority in His Messiah... who is also His high priest. All this took place during baptism!!! The Messiah was BORN flesh.
The only story changed is in the minds of men misinterpreting the scriptures and gospels, which remains the same.
Some protestants insist on saying stupid and untrue things Its a pity to be actually literate yet unable to learn anything.
3Moses 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:4,5,23 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be anyone who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination of the LORD, a work of the hands of master craftsmen, and sets it up in secret. And all the people shall answer and say: Amen
Psalm 97:7 All who serve images and boast in idols are to be ashamed
Do you understand the difference between and icon or image between an idol? To venerate vs to worship? Becareful than to whom you call as idiot lest it be thrown back at you 3 fold. What is the Quran if not and icon of HIS Word that which is above. Are you trying to refer to exodus? I feel sorry for you Muslims lead astray by a “prophet” that came like 500years AD.
843 was before the Great Schism . Its misleading to use the word Orrhodxy in this context. The Church was the Catholic Church.
Where do Orthodox get icons? You like buy them at church? 😅 I am dumb. I have dumber questions.