Therapists Without Empathy
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Bob and Dr Kirk talk about the misunderstandings about psychopathy and antisocial personality.
00:00 Therapists with Antisocial Personality DIsorder
16:19 Treating antisocial & morality
34:19 Cost/benefit of advocating
39:42 Antisocial and sadism
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April 29, 2024
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
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I had a group therapist in Boston who himself had a malignant psychopathic narcissistic personality. He would charm, lie, manipulate and abuse his clients and pass it off as therapy. He would brake down his own psychopathy and teach it to clients as the way to approach life to have relationships! People had no idea, but only said he made them feel worse but couldn’t point their finger how.
How do u actually now he was that type of narcissist and did the things you ve mentioned?
@@byzantineaura long story. First my mom and grandma told me that guy seems to “just come up with recommendations for what to do for you socially without taking responsibility for the quality of his advice”, the my sister said “I see a lot of red flags about this guy and the group/therapist are mean to you and making you feel bad when you come out for there”, my best friend said “you are very gullible and have a tendency toward joining cults and you have Stockholm syndrome”, another friend said that what this guy recommends “tell people how you think openly” is not a successful socially strategy at all, the people started saying “we see you do what you learned in group and it is mean and socially inappropriate”… then years later someone who was in the group before I joined contacted me saying they did research and consulted with other professionals and figured out this guy is a “malignant narcissist and psychopath” who uses standard cult leader tactics. I did the research and what he did matches word for word!
@byzantineaura I imagine the person knows the client did thise things because they were a client in group therapy and they compared notes with the other group members.
As for the diagnosis maybe the therapist stated it. Or maybe there were enough signs a look through the DSM-V was sufficient for the OP to come to that conclusion.
@@miscellaniac3367 you got it mixed up. The THERAPIST was the malignant narcissist, not the client!
That's flippin scary.
That is so interesting. I feel like a therapist with antisocial would have to be very selective about their clients but would be PHENOMENAL for some individuals. I've actually had a difficult time connecting with some therapists who want to over-empathize with me when I don't need it, and instead need objectivity.
My therapist doesn't use any emotional empathy with me, she's cognitive and she knows that is the best approach with me, she's a very good therapist, first one to make progress with me out of 16 (yes 16, most were under the NHS who didn't have a clue how to manage me, I self discharged from NHS mental health services and went private). I have reactive attachment disorder and as a child got diagnosed with callous-unemotional traits but no adult personality disorders after being assessed for them a few times. I can't stand therapists who use emotional empathy with me, it's just so much extra when I just want to focus on practical solutions and learning skills that I can use to better myself and my life. I thanked my therapist for not using emotional empathy on me.
Agree. The therapist I have atm says aww bless you and I find it insulting and patronising.
empathy can be very patronizing. I think it is so much more important to accept differences as a therapist and understand that everyone feels differently. to say that a psychopath does not feel is just wrong. ACTUALLY LISTENING to what patients say and, also, to what they do not say - that is- also questing and engaging with the patient, building a relationship based on interaction and conversation is yes, much more challengeing but also more helpful than trying to make up for a presumed "lack" in the patient by your own emotions, just because you can't bear that some human beings are less inhibited in their destructive tendencies than others (or yourself).
I do not want my therapist to "feel with me" - what is that good for? I want him or her to acknowledge my pain and suffering and not understand and tell me that he feels the same. I want them to point out where I am reproducing it, where I am deflecting it in order to change what I am suffering from. Psychopaths tend to do this towards others, show their pain by making somebody else hurt and they will do that with their therapist too. so if you want to work with psychopaths you will have to be prepared to enter this relationship and know your boundaries always.
I would question a therapist that gets too empathic with their patients. but I am also a psychoanalyst.
I have so many thoughts on this topic. My brother identifies as a sociopath - which I realise is not a clinical label but it's the language he uses to refer to himself so I'll use it too. I know of case studies in which people who scored highly on the Hare psychopath scale were taught how to show empathy and then went on to use those skills to better manipulate people in the future - in other words, become better psychopaths. I'm not sure if that's relevant to people with APD given it was specific to psychopathy - I'll wait for your deep dive to clear up that distinction. But when I think of that in the context of my brother, I'm very glad no-one has ever tried teaching my brother to fake compassion and empathy better. I remember when he would try to appear compassionate and empathetic when we were teenagers it made my skin crawl. I didn't know why at the time, just that it felt off. I was right to feel that way because eventually it became clear that he was trying to abuse me - I won't go into specifics. If someone had taught him how to show empathy and compassion without having to feel it maybe he would have been more successful in his attempts to abuse me. On the other hand, if you were his therapist now you'd feel a tremendous amount of compassion for him. He's been so callous and un-caring to everyone his whole life - and now that our parents have died - he's realised he's all alone and is in a deep pit of depression. It's a conundrum because when I put myself in your shoes, the only path forward is to teach this person how to human with the humans. But when I'm one of the humans he's going to use what you've taught him on I don't think I can thank you for that. I'd prefer to see who he really is so I can have nothing to do with him.
This was, IMO, a very thoughtful comment and I’m glad you posted it. I’ve seen with my own eyes how therapy can equip emotionally dangerous people with more sophisticated weaponry. And then they use it… and the therapist thinks it’s a success story because they don’t usually end up talking to the targets. They don’t know the knowledge they’ve passed to their client has been used in this manner. All they know is that the client is now saying that they’ve changed, due to the therapist’s help and their own difficult inner work.
This was a great episode. Years ago I asked myself if people with antisocial personality disorder can have moral agency and accountability. The descriptions I had heard gave me the idea that they would never have any sense of right and wrong. But I watched some videos of a woman who said she had it, and she learned ways to avoid hurting other people. It strikes me that if someone’s brain doesn’t compel them to care for other people, but they choose to care anyway, that is a higher moral action than simply following a natural impulse to fit social expectations. I have great respect for anyone who makes that decision, and I appreciate your willingness to give people with difficult diagnoses a chance to improve.
There are some parallels to the way people describe antisocial and autism. It’s said that autistic people can’t understand other’s emotions, which isn’t true. There’s difficulty identifying and predicting those emotions, but they are fully capable of caring. When Bob pointed out the failure of empathy toward antisocial people, I thought of the “double empathy problem” describes how non-autistic people fail to understand the emotions of autistic people, and fail to understand when they are trying to show compassion. It goes both ways.
I appreciated the description of “cringing” as a connection between fear and morality. I was taught as a Christian that the “fear of God” should not be a trembling in fear of punishment, but more like respect, and placing importance on God’s approval, much like we can fear to disappoint other people. But a fear of punishment could also be a starting point for developing good habits, and with stages of morality in mind, “fear of God” could develop in stages until one can grasp the ethical laws that govern heaven and earth. That said, I know I have made some decisions in terms of stage 5 and 6, but many of my everyday decisions could fall into the “earlier” stages as well. There’s probably some flexibility in those levels.
She just learned to cover her actions better that's all because she knows Kamra is b and even autistic ppl responsible to their moral choice
I was watching a true crime show and a 18yo girl was described as having borderline personality disorder and BPD described as people who are "like vampires, sucking all energy from therapists and moving on to the next' and while I was never officially diagnosed by my prior (wonderful) therapist as having BPD, I was still like, well fk you too.
It's fascinating that people say psychopaths won't go to therapy, but then throw people out for the traits they say won't come in... confirmation bias much? Wouldn't surprise me that a lot of people can logically learn that destrying your relationships is maybe... not ideal?
What about when you have loads of empathy for others, to the point that if I see someone fall and get hurt? Others laugh, I actually experience pain or a physical sensation. However, the older I have become the more disdain I have for others.
I wonder how many are out there like me. It should be noted I have severe PTSD. I’m on two medications for it.
It’s extremely confusing
Being constantly abused throughout your whole life makes you fear getting involved because you have been hurted by people using your empathy against you.
It's not that you have lost your empathy, you just surrendered to the fact that you can't make a difference so you just give up in order to protect yourself.
I have cptsd and I'm tired of people and how most systems derived in hypocrecy and psicopathy.
I want to live out of drama but most people bring drama in my life. I have not found empathetic people but people who fake empathy and they keep proyecting their trash on others.
I wouldn't worry. It's a common and sane reaction to the insanity in the world.
I get tired of watching how mean people thrive by stepping on other's rights.
New ending music, thank you, thank you, thank you! I was adapted to wake up every time the old one started playing
Ha!
So much of this discussion could be applied to the neurodivergent experience as well.
I am a therapist who specializes in DV treatment. I have a captive audience, a disproportionate number of whom signal for cluster b personality types. They strike me as social nomads following a food supply. They feed off one area until the food supply recognizes them for what they are (which they hate) and so they go start all over again somewhere else with new prey.
And they hate being called monsters. That's what most serial killers in jail are most obsessed about; trying to convince others that they are not monsters. It's so dellusional.
My abnormal professor didn’t say they’re monsters but she did say they are basically untreatable. Also so did some of the case studies 🤷🏽♀️
Just because they are untreatable though, doesn’t mean they will be immoral or aren’t needed.
People without empathy are extremely important in society.
We need people who are just logical without emotion.
Surgeons
ER workers
Scientists
Lawyers
There’s so many fields that get hampered with emotional confirmation bias. It’s one of the truest reasons we don’t progress.
And is why the world is being taken over by computers and algorithms. The people in society KNOW emotions should not be weighed in complex societal issues or solutions.
of you practice psychoanalysis... empathy and understanding means that you are projecting your morals into the patients which become and obstacle.
What was that scale Doc and Bob were discussing early into the episode? That matches a model of a particular social group I've observed, and I'm curious to see how much that researcher said on the subject
Probably morality- some of it was Kohlberg
I wonder if I have autism or antisocial personality disorder? Cuz it's one or the other for me at least, but I don't have the money for a diagnosis
Its become a big problem when more of them becoming social workers, therapists, attorneys,judges, teachers and medical staff in position of districtive influence about others life like power abuse against DV victims, remove kids from parents, force guardian over disabilities and elderly
I had an SNL Celebrity Jeopardy moment while reading that thumbnail text
Therapist is so unbelievably defensive about the concept of being antisocial.
Completely unrelated to anything meaningful in this wonderful podcast - I hear "seduced" so infrequently, that when I do, my mind still to this day conjures Darkness' father from Legend saying "Seduce her. Woo her." Maybe it's also because that movie is just forever imprinted in my mind. It's so good
I think they would be good with people who were like them, but not regular people.
Cognitive empathy
49:17 nah, that's not okay. Imagine your kid had something horrible happen to them, only for you to find out that someone uploaded the aftermath, without their consent, and now it's being traded around the internet by a bunch of people who get pleasure from watching it
Hear me out…………I think the justice system would benefit tremendously from employing officials with APD. Those who are committed to equity and compassion. And also have APD.
I strongly believe we need sociopaths or people without empathy in life. They make excellent surgeons, thinkers, ER workers etc. even defense lawyers. Who else will stab a tube in your neck? When you need to breathe or something? Or defend you when they know you’re guilty. We still need the system of justice. Etc. Even grandiose narcissists. People need an inordinate amount of belief in themselves to do great things.
I think we are far too hard on these people. We need these people.
Being overtly emotional and empathetic is not always better.
I don’t know about therapy though interesting concepts he was bringing up.
Narcissists do not have a strong belief in themselves. This is why they are always telling everyone how great they are, or complaining about how underappreciated they are.
Grandiose narcissists would be capable of doing great things- for themselves. And ruin everyone around them who would let them. I agree to a certain point but there are documented cases of surgeons who would purposely kill patients just for the thrill. A minimum amount of empathy is absolutely necessary in order to not be harmful to society.
I can’t speak for lawyers, as it’s not my field, but having empathy is completely compatible with being a surgeon and working at the ER. You may not want someone who is overly neurotic and emotional, but they don’t need to completely lack empathy either. People get trained to be in those places and make those decisions. Fortunately or unfortunately, it’s also surprisingly easy for normal people to significantly lower their empathy and to detach from suffering when working in places like hospitals
I’m called a psycho it’s kind of lame
This is grotesque, good riddance therapists!
Dr Kirk Honda, Podcasts is very nice window into the world of pyschology.
The way you talk about the stigma around ASPD, NPD and BPD re: being discussed in dehumanizing ways that rejects current research literature and yet professors still teach it that way… I really wish you’d realize and communicate that it’s the same way for autistic folks as well. You seem to have a very flexible, nuanced and supportive view of personality disorder diagnoses and I really wish that tolerance for ambiguity and complexity was extended to your conceptualization of the autistic and ADHD experience. The body of research supporting the idea of different neurotypes exist is increasing rapidly and I don’t quite understand why you have so much resistance to the idea that different neurotypes exist? What’s the potential harm of thinking that way? Where does your resistance come from? What social institutions benefit from the idea that there are no neurotypes? How do deficit based descriptions of any DSM diagnosis benefit patients and clinicians in and outside of a clinical setting? My sister has BPD and I’ve gained so much wisdom from your content that I support her better now than I ever did before finding your content. I wish you could see me and my community with the same compassion and drive to challenge stereotypes and help us think critically about the ways ableism informs our perceptions. Maybe one day you will. I will remain hopeful.
Where did Dr. Honda ever say that he didn't believe different neutotypes exist?
Yeah I don't think Dr Honda has ever indicated that he doesn't think different neurotypes exist. I do think Dr Honda has a great deal to learn when it comes to talking about autism respectfully, however.
@@NellieWindmillArt I'm still curious, though, as to what are some examples of him not talking about autism as respectfully as he should? I've only heard him really talk at length about autism in two separate episodes, both of which were with guests, but I didn't notice anything awry about the way he talked about it.
Dr h said simply that certain activity of the brain doesn't free Sameone from responsible to the results of their words and actions that's all
Fellow person with asd here. I remember there being what I interpreted as dismissive remarks about autism diagnoses in some of Dr. Honda’s older videos but I can’t remember which ones so I relate to what you’re saying. The content on this channel about BPD and NPD has been so enlightening and has helped me understand and support my loved ones better. I appreciate that Dr. Honda is good at educating about his special interests. It’s okay with me that he’s not very interested in asd. There are so many other mental health practitioners who specialize in asd and have helpful content. I go to different sources for different information needs. ASD is not Dr. Honda’s area of expertise. Have you found other helpful sources? I’ll share some of mine if you’re interested. ❤