Awesome video! You will learn from this video whether you are a greenhorn seeking knowledge or an advanced tuner. The only part to disregard is the fact that LT headers don't cause this issue at all. Yes, cam swap adds to the error, but it "usually" starts with LT headers. No matter, great job on detailing how to tune the most overlooked/ignored part of creating a 'textbook" vehicle tune. Or viewers can skip this video and let KLF do what it does.
very good video, best I've seen on the subject. Even though I had to figure this stuff out on my own I still appreciate stuff like this. It's always good to hear different perspectives/ takes on how it all works. Either way, I'm sure we can all take something away from this. Thank you. BTW, this problem is definitely more noticeable on E38 stuff compared to the older P01/P59 stuff. It's still there on them but not nearly as noticeable. Also, for more mild cams usually taming down the O2 error table and maybe slightly on the proportional table will take care of most if not all of the "surging". EDIT: forgot to mention I also adjust airflow vs mode table for idle. Since a stock car might idle at ~40-50 lbs/hr and a cammed car might idle at ~70-110 lbs/hr, I'll adjust the mode to reflect the factory settings for the new idle airflow. I've found the hardest areas to dial in are the cruise areas. Basically ~150-300 lbs/hr areas. The biggest issue is over correction. Cutting down the Proportional and O2 error tables are usually the key to preventing that. Next you should talk about bucking when letting off the throttle or really light throttle at 1200-1500 rpm with a manual trans. YAY LOL.
OK...my idle video contribution is recorded. The video is rending (takes a long time), and uploading also takes forever too, but hopefully it should upload sometime before midnight!
Thank you for sharing this info really helps to fill in the gaps, left by others. One thing though can barely hear you, had the volume cranked up and when an ad would start really jumped. Had to use the close caption for parts. Maybe try a USB mic they are great, and reasonably priced. Thanks again great job, looking forward to future vids.
Thank you for the feedback. I do have a USB mic. I do check on my videos for sound, editing, counting the "ums" per second etc. Audio seems fine on my laptop, phone, and TV. I will ask others to comment on my next one to see if there is something widespread going on. I will turn up the gain a little bit, but I am concerned about it distorting.
"*insert shop name* is so good he don't have to drive the car to tune it." Can't believe it, but I have heard this recently from someone who was being serious.
Closed Loop Enable Temp - Pretty important when cams are involved. Helps get the proportional and integral close right from the get go. It's misleading the way it's labeled, but it's basically a fueling switch going from colder engine to hotter engine fuel swings. You can minimize the swinging by putting that setting to a maxish position and then fine tune using the others.
Interesting...are you saying the CL enable temp is not a simple on/off switch? But rather the ECM interpolates? So the closer you are to that temp the more pronounced the oscillations are?
@@SilverSurfer77 I would say it's still an on/off switch it's just once it hits that temp it goes from small swings to large swings. You can minimize the swings with cams or headers by raising it above a temp the engine will ever see. It's not an open/closed loop enable temp as worded in the calibration. Setting it to stay in the smaller swing zone just makes the rest of the O2 tuning easier.
@@GHuggins So the car stays in OL the whole time, correct? Are you saying to only do this while tuning, and then re-enable, or leave it disabled completely?
Are you referring to closed loop vs open loop with fuel trimming? Doesn't sound like it but IDK what else you would be talking about. I usually don't allow closed loop until 100-130 degrees. I also set the eq ratio min table to keep the mixture slightly fat until then. Works really well for large cams. I've been meaning to try the ECT proportional multiplier but it's difficult to truly test since you really only get one cold start per day.
@@SilverSurfer77 Pasted from VCM Suite Online Help: The VCM fueling generally operates in one of three modes: 1) Open loop, 2) Open loop STFT or 3) Closed Loop. Open loop is used when the O2 sensors are not warmed up, failed, or when an enrichment mode (such as power enrichment) is active. Open loop STFT is used on some PCM's when the O2 sensors are showing signs of operation (O2 Readiness), however the closed loop enable ECT has not been reached. In this mode the STFT's may function. The final mode is Closed Loop and in this mode the full closed loop fuel controller is operational.
I think what I am struggling with at this moment in time is the order of operations. How can I have confidence in my MAF curve and SD calibration if the O2 sensor switching is causing me to run leaner or richer than desired....but I am supposed to use STFTs for partial throttle tuning. I could understand tuning in OL and relying on the wideband for the MAF and SD but that's not how most people do it. So which comes first? I know you say that you don't think LT headers cause an issue with the O2 sensors but a lot of people find themselves tweaking the P and I after installing them. I don't know why I am struggling with this mental block. I'll be watching it again for sure though. Thanks!
I would use STFT only for tuning this stuff. As far as the switching voltages, you can start messing with that during the MAF and VVE tuning (prior to the P&I) now that you know how it impacts the tuning process. And when done correctly, the P&I shouldn't impact the fuel trims when you circle back to those later. I don't know that I have ever heard of someone complaining about the surging when LT only. It seems to only happen after a cam is installed (and most people who know engines will also install LT's at the time of a cam install if they haven't already done so). But either way, I do believe it is the whole parts stack messing with the engine's sensitivity to torque at that airflow, timing, RPM, and fueling conditions. Have you seen my other videos on dynamic air and the tools for dialing in VVE and MAF? Check those out if you haven't already. Using the dynamic air one is amazing IMHO since you can tune both MAF and VVE at the same time without having to go into SD or OL. Then you can plug in the data into the MAF and VVE tools I wrote and it will make like much easier. If you have any questions just ask!
Awesome 👌 video. Im new to tuning and i have been noticing that i get a o2 code that comes and goes. I rebuilt the motor and have a stage 3 cam and im trying to get that drivability.
They do exist in the OS, however, unfortunately HPTuners did not map that parameter for your particular OS ID. Your options are: 1) Log a request and beg HPTuners to add it for your OS 2) Create a user defined parameter to access it 3) Swap the ECM itself to a supported OS 4) Flash/segment swap a new OS to your existing ECM (which might not be possible depending on years and hardware compatibility)
great video its helped me out tremendously to understand and solve a few tuning issues on my gen 3-5.3 but! i have a question i am trying to use your math parameters that you supplied for the graphs in vcm scanner and i just cant seem to get them to work each graph is reading the same how do i solve this problem? any help would be appreciated thanks
Going from Gen4 to Gen3...your actual PID numbers will probably be different. However, you must ensure that you are logging each of the correct PIDs in your channel list. That should solve it. The other option would be that perhaps there are some filters in place that are preventing the graphs from populating.
Ok I’m wondering what pids should I have in my channels for each histogram to log properly? I solved the o-6 proportional or I at least think I have as it looks good but would like to solve this issue so I can check my work. Thanks
You were correct sir the math you provided would not work for me on a gen 3 . I did figure it out and it’s working awesome for me I now have information I can use. Now if I can just figure out how to add a filter function to remove throttle transitions it will be even better.
@@HughBanks-w7o here is the first part of the filters I use...the first section filters out torque management and the second one filters out throttle. Then I usually add on to it to filter for Open or Closed Loop. [2517.161.avg(1500)]=0 and [2517.161.avg(-200)]=0 and (abs([50090.156.slope(1500)])+abs([50090.156.slope(-500)]))
With scanner 5.0.4. Do you use the prolink+ for your wideband? When transformiing it for the aem 30-0300 the transform doesnt give me an option for units (volts or afr) so cant graph wb. Any insight? Ive submitted a ticket to hpt but havent heard back yet
I have a few questions.. I'm on the greener side of tuning but I follow most of what you're doing here. When I open the document it looks like it's in raw text and some of the characters in the filter data don't appear to correlate in HP Tuners. Should I use something different to open the documents? I'm doing this on a Gen3 so it looks like some of the Parameter ID's might be different. In the first set of histograms are you just looking at raw data from the WB and plotting along that along the column axis? The second group of histograms looks like O2 sensor data plotted along mV? And lastly WB data plotted along MAF? Is that correct?
The XML files are to be opened in HP Tuners Scanner (unless you understand XML files). The PIDs referenced will be for Gen 4 (E38 specifically), some of them may correlate to a Gen 3...idk though, I have never touched a Gen 3. First set plots lambda vs MAF g/s for each airflow mode Second set does the same, except it plots narrowband voltages The third set does the same as the first, but instead of a real histogram it uses the old traditional table/chart/graph.
Hello mate, I hope you're doing well. At What point should I stop increasing proportional?. I just started the process with prop base at 0.0012 and both bank switch from lean to reach but the distance between switch point is high 2-3 seconds rich, 2-3 seconds lean?. Should I touch integrator delay? or keep increasing prop base?
Do you have a wideband to watch how far rich/lean the swings are? Without seeing the logs, I would say you are on track...and if the logs seem pretty consistent for all airflow modes, now may be the time to start adding the Prop Error Gain. I would always error on the side of too much Prop than too little.
@@SilverSurfer77 yes I have a wideband. In those áreas were I have a flat line in both bank rich or lean the wideband show the same rich or lean and the delta from lambda is more or less .04, .05.
@@SilverSurfer77 can I send you my log file? Maybe some orientation will help me. I found myself a little lost here. Not sure is the switch that I see are ok or not yet.
Hi Mate, thanks again for sharing great content. Good timing too! I managed to put my heads back together as well new headers with hi flow cats. I noticed that the new cat is really strugling to store O2 . It sometimes nearly behave like the stock but majority of time the post cat O2 is switching together with the pre cat. I wonder if i can fine tune the fuel swinging to improve the hi flow cat efficiency. I was to inhale the least amout of NOx and CO as possible.
I have always wondered how high flow cats compare to factory in terms of emissions. Without an exhaust sniff test it may not be possible to get real world answers. My gut tells me the post cat O2 sensors aren't going to tell you the full story. However, I think it would be good to compare post cat O2 voltages before and after high flow cats as a starting point. I would be interested to hear your results, please post back and share! Thanks for the support!
I wish now I had paid more attention to B1S2 and B2S2 before replacing the cats. They were always neglected. I just remembered they being a steady line slow moving . At least I got a WB sensor so,I will play having it a touch above "stoichiiii" and compare when it is a touch below.
Go to Edit > View menu and ensure Advanced is checked. If it is already checked, then I am curious what year & vehicle the ECM is from. It may be worth checking the repository to see if it is the same there as well.
Advanced is checked. It's a 2007 LS2 Corvette. I believe all the repository files are the same. I feel like my tune is pretty good but it does bounce more lean/rich than I like.
@@mikea2833 so this is crazy, there are 3 examples in the repository with OS ID 12614676 and they have all minimal Proportional controls and no Integral control. If you are not experiencing any issues, then I would say just ignore it. Otherwise, you would have to log a request to HPT to add those tables for your OS (which I doubt they would do) or swap your ECM for a newer E38. Not sure if a segment swap is possible or would fix it.
Yeah, car has headers and cam. It drive's ok, minimal surging. I just feel like the fueling swings a little more that it should in some areas. I might just play with proportional in those areas and see if I see any changes.
Awesome video! You will learn from this video whether you are a greenhorn seeking knowledge or an advanced tuner. The only part to disregard is the fact that LT headers don't cause this issue at all. Yes, cam swap adds to the error, but it "usually" starts with LT headers. No matter, great job on detailing how to tune the most overlooked/ignored part of creating a 'textbook" vehicle tune. Or viewers can skip this video and let KLF do what it does.
very good video, best I've seen on the subject. Even though I had to figure this stuff out on my own I still appreciate stuff like this. It's always good to hear different perspectives/ takes on how it all works. Either way, I'm sure we can all take something away from this. Thank you. BTW, this problem is definitely more noticeable on E38 stuff compared to the older P01/P59 stuff. It's still there on them but not nearly as noticeable. Also, for more mild cams usually taming down the O2 error table and maybe slightly on the proportional table will take care of most if not all of the "surging".
EDIT: forgot to mention I also adjust airflow vs mode table for idle. Since a stock car might idle at ~40-50 lbs/hr and a cammed car might idle at ~70-110 lbs/hr, I'll adjust the mode to reflect the factory settings for the new idle airflow. I've found the hardest areas to dial in are the cruise areas. Basically ~150-300 lbs/hr areas. The biggest issue is over correction. Cutting down the Proportional and O2 error tables are usually the key to preventing that. Next you should talk about bucking when letting off the throttle or really light throttle at 1200-1500 rpm with a manual trans. YAY LOL.
As usual top notch. Now let's wait for that idle tuning video 😅.
OK...my idle video contribution is recorded. The video is rending (takes a long time), and uploading also takes forever too, but hopefully it should upload sometime before midnight!
@@SilverSurfer77 thanks brother. Lets start the show. You´re the best.
Thank you for sharing this info really helps to fill in the gaps, left by others. One thing though can barely hear you, had the volume cranked up and when an ad would start really jumped. Had to use the close caption for parts. Maybe try a USB mic they are great, and reasonably priced. Thanks again great job, looking forward to future vids.
Thank you for the feedback. I do have a USB mic. I do check on my videos for sound, editing, counting the "ums" per second etc. Audio seems fine on my laptop, phone, and TV. I will ask others to comment on my next one to see if there is something widespread going on. I will turn up the gain a little bit, but I am concerned about it distorting.
@@SilverSurfer77 very quiet for me as well. Great video, thank you for taking the time to make this and share.
"*insert shop name* is so good he don't have to drive the car to tune it." Can't believe it, but I have heard this recently from someone who was being serious.
Well some tuners are more psychic than others lol!
Great stuff
Closed Loop Enable Temp - Pretty important when cams are involved. Helps get the proportional and integral close right from the get go. It's misleading the way it's labeled, but it's basically a fueling switch going from colder engine to hotter engine fuel swings. You can minimize the swinging by putting that setting to a maxish position and then fine tune using the others.
Interesting...are you saying the CL enable temp is not a simple on/off switch? But rather the ECM interpolates? So the closer you are to that temp the more pronounced the oscillations are?
@@SilverSurfer77 I would say it's still an on/off switch it's just once it hits that temp it goes from small swings to large swings. You can minimize the swings with cams or headers by raising it above a temp the engine will ever see. It's not an open/closed loop enable temp as worded in the calibration. Setting it to stay in the smaller swing zone just makes the rest of the O2 tuning easier.
@@GHuggins So the car stays in OL the whole time, correct? Are you saying to only do this while tuning, and then re-enable, or leave it disabled completely?
Are you referring to closed loop vs open loop with fuel trimming? Doesn't sound like it but IDK what else you would be talking about.
I usually don't allow closed loop until 100-130 degrees. I also set the eq ratio min table to keep the mixture slightly fat until then. Works really well for large cams. I've been meaning to try the ECT proportional multiplier but it's difficult to truly test since you really only get one cold start per day.
@@SilverSurfer77 Pasted from VCM Suite Online Help: The VCM fueling generally operates in one of three modes: 1) Open loop, 2) Open loop STFT or 3) Closed Loop. Open loop is used when the O2 sensors are not warmed up, failed, or when an enrichment mode (such as power enrichment) is active. Open loop STFT is used on some PCM's when the O2 sensors are showing signs of operation (O2 Readiness), however the closed loop enable ECT has not been reached. In this mode the STFT's may function. The final mode is Closed Loop and in this mode the full closed loop fuel controller is operational.
I think what I am struggling with at this moment in time is the order of operations. How can I have confidence in my MAF curve and SD calibration if the O2 sensor switching is causing me to run leaner or richer than desired....but I am supposed to use STFTs for partial throttle tuning. I could understand tuning in OL and relying on the wideband for the MAF and SD but that's not how most people do it. So which comes first? I know you say that you don't think LT headers cause an issue with the O2 sensors but a lot of people find themselves tweaking the P and I after installing them. I don't know why I am struggling with this mental block. I'll be watching it again for sure though. Thanks!
I would use STFT only for tuning this stuff. As far as the switching voltages, you can start messing with that during the MAF and VVE tuning (prior to the P&I) now that you know how it impacts the tuning process. And when done correctly, the P&I shouldn't impact the fuel trims when you circle back to those later.
I don't know that I have ever heard of someone complaining about the surging when LT only. It seems to only happen after a cam is installed (and most people who know engines will also install LT's at the time of a cam install if they haven't already done so). But either way, I do believe it is the whole parts stack messing with the engine's sensitivity to torque at that airflow, timing, RPM, and fueling conditions.
Have you seen my other videos on dynamic air and the tools for dialing in VVE and MAF? Check those out if you haven't already. Using the dynamic air one is amazing IMHO since you can tune both MAF and VVE at the same time without having to go into SD or OL. Then you can plug in the data into the MAF and VVE tools I wrote and it will make like much easier. If you have any questions just ask!
Awesome 👌 video. Im new to tuning and i have been noticing that i get a o2 code that comes and goes. I rebuilt the motor and have a stage 3 cam and im trying to get that drivability.
Thank you
You are welcome!
My o2 bank 2 starts off around 450, or about even with bank 1. 10 seconds later spikes up and then falls to single digits. Any idea what this is?
Hard to say based on the info given.
Somehow some way my e38 doesnt have prop gain or prop delay table's. I even went in to the navigator and searched for it. Just information for others.
They do exist in the OS, however, unfortunately HPTuners did not map that parameter for your particular OS ID. Your options are:
1) Log a request and beg HPTuners to add it for your OS
2) Create a user defined parameter to access it
3) Swap the ECM itself to a supported OS
4) Flash/segment swap a new OS to your existing ECM (which might not be possible depending on years and hardware compatibility)
great video its helped me out tremendously to understand and solve a few tuning issues on my gen 3-5.3 but! i have a question i am trying to use your math parameters that you supplied for the graphs in vcm scanner and i just cant seem to get them to work each graph is reading the same how do i solve this problem? any help would be appreciated thanks
Going from Gen4 to Gen3...your actual PID numbers will probably be different. However, you must ensure that you are logging each of the correct PIDs in your channel list. That should solve it. The other option would be that perhaps there are some filters in place that are preventing the graphs from populating.
Ok I’m wondering what pids should I have in my channels for each histogram to log properly? I solved the o-6 proportional or I at least think I have as it looks good but would like to solve this issue so I can check my work. Thanks
You were correct sir the math you provided would not work for me on a gen 3 . I did figure it out and it’s working awesome for me I now have information I can use. Now if I can just figure out how to add a filter function to remove throttle transitions it will be even better.
@@HughBanks-w7o here is the first part of the filters I use...the first section filters out torque management and the second one filters out throttle. Then I usually add on to it to filter for Open or Closed Loop.
[2517.161.avg(1500)]=0 and [2517.161.avg(-200)]=0 and (abs([50090.156.slope(1500)])+abs([50090.156.slope(-500)]))
With scanner 5.0.4. Do you use the prolink+ for your wideband? When transformiing it for the aem 30-0300 the transform doesnt give me an option for units (volts or afr) so cant graph wb. Any insight? Ive submitted a ticket to hpt but havent heard back yet
I have an AEM 30-0334 that piggybacks on the obd2 port. Sorry I can't help.
I have a few questions.. I'm on the greener side of tuning but I follow most of what you're doing here. When I open the document it looks like it's in raw text and some of the characters in the filter data don't appear to correlate in HP Tuners. Should I use something different to open the documents?
I'm doing this on a Gen3 so it looks like some of the Parameter ID's might be different. In the first set of histograms are you just looking at raw data from the WB and plotting along that along the column axis? The second group of histograms looks like O2 sensor data plotted along mV? And lastly WB data plotted along MAF? Is that correct?
The XML files are to be opened in HP Tuners Scanner (unless you understand XML files). The PIDs referenced will be for Gen 4 (E38 specifically), some of them may correlate to a Gen 3...idk though, I have never touched a Gen 3.
First set plots lambda vs MAF g/s for each airflow mode
Second set does the same, except it plots narrowband voltages
The third set does the same as the first, but instead of a real histogram it uses the old traditional table/chart/graph.
Got it! This is going to be fun to experiment with. Thanks for sharing!
Hello mate, I hope you're doing well. At What point should I stop increasing proportional?. I just started the process with prop base at 0.0012 and both bank switch from lean to reach but the distance between switch point is high 2-3 seconds rich, 2-3 seconds lean?. Should I touch integrator delay? or keep increasing prop base?
Do you have a wideband to watch how far rich/lean the swings are? Without seeing the logs, I would say you are on track...and if the logs seem pretty consistent for all airflow modes, now may be the time to start adding the Prop Error Gain. I would always error on the side of too much Prop than too little.
@@SilverSurfer77 yes I have a wideband. In those áreas were I have a flat line in both bank rich or lean the wideband show the same rich or lean and the delta from lambda is more or less .04, .05.
@@darkzero6282 nice! throw some Prop Error Gain in there if you haven't already, then sprinkle a little Integral spice in there!
@@SilverSurfer77 can I send you my log file? Maybe some orientation will help me. I found myself a little lost here. Not sure is the switch that I see are ok or not yet.
@@darkzero6282 sure you can email it to me
Hi Mate, thanks again for sharing great content. Good timing too! I managed to put my heads back together as well new headers with hi flow cats. I noticed that the new cat is really strugling to store O2 . It sometimes nearly behave like the stock but majority of time the post cat O2 is switching together with the pre cat. I wonder if i can fine tune the fuel swinging to improve the hi flow cat efficiency. I was to inhale the least amout of NOx and CO as possible.
I meant I want to inhale the least amount of nasties as possible
I have always wondered how high flow cats compare to factory in terms of emissions. Without an exhaust sniff test it may not be possible to get real world answers. My gut tells me the post cat O2 sensors aren't going to tell you the full story. However, I think it would be good to compare post cat O2 voltages before and after high flow cats as a starting point. I would be interested to hear your results, please post back and share! Thanks for the support!
I wish now I had paid more attention to B1S2 and B2S2 before replacing the cats. They were always neglected. I just remembered they being a steady line slow moving . At least I got a WB sensor so,I will play having it a touch above "stoichiiii" and compare when it is a touch below.
My E38 does not have an integral for some reason.
Go to Edit > View menu and ensure Advanced is checked.
If it is already checked, then I am curious what year & vehicle the ECM is from. It may be worth checking the repository to see if it is the same there as well.
Advanced is checked. It's a 2007 LS2 Corvette. I believe all the repository files are the same. I feel like my tune is pretty good but it does bounce more lean/rich than I like.
@mikea2833 man that is wild. Now I'm curious...I'll see what I can turn up.
@@mikea2833 so this is crazy, there are 3 examples in the repository with OS ID 12614676 and they have all minimal Proportional controls and no Integral control.
If you are not experiencing any issues, then I would say just ignore it. Otherwise, you would have to log a request to HPT to add those tables for your OS (which I doubt they would do) or swap your ECM for a newer E38. Not sure if a segment swap is possible or would fix it.
Yeah, car has headers and cam. It drive's ok, minimal surging. I just feel like the fueling swings a little more that it should in some areas. I might just play with proportional in those areas and see if I see any changes.