I must read in the way that men did 200 years ago because I was actually surprised when I learned critics had interpreted this verse that way. It had never even popped into my head in my 6 read-throughs of the BoM that “after all we can do” could mean anything other than “despite all we can do”.
One thing that hit me is that I can’t even breathe except by the grace of god. My digestion my eyesight my hands feet legs or arms can’t work by my will. Some miraculous power other than me makes all that happen. I’d say that’s a big dose of grace even Before all I can do 👍🏻
Crazy...Fifteen minutes ago, I began my scripture study. I couldn't remember exactly where I left off but I felt impressed to begin in 2 Nephi 25. It's a longer chapter so admittedly I would've usually skipped it when I was unsure where I last reading. I came across verse 23 (the one discussed in this video), remembered that Saints Unscripted made a RUclips Short addressing that particular topic and I sidetracked to go look for it. When I logged on, this video was at the top of my recommendations. Published an hour ago as of writing this comment. Very cool. Very thankful for the resources and growing my brain. I appreciate it, guys!
Thank you so much for this! I had started ignoring that phrase because it didn't make sense with what Uchtdorf and other leaders were saying, but i wasnt satisfied with just ignoring it. This makes so much sense! Thank you again!
The main thing is to believe in Christ and His grace to save us. Doing all that we can will surely help magnify His grace towards us. It is really important to understand the source of this Grace which can save us.
The grace that says 'go forth and sin boldly.... even is you murder a thousand times a day, you will be saved." Don't think so, Charlie. That is wicked, perverse doctrine by apostate Martin Luther.
Well explained. The more I studied Martin Luther, the founder if all protestants, the more I see how that detoured from pure Christian doctrine and how an absolute course correction was needed via the restoration
And so once again it proves how inherent things are made by "self-inherency" when it comes to the Bible, and how everything outside of that framework is treated with a lense of critic and preassumption.. Great video
Reading the whole chapter it's clear that those people were living under the law of Moses and the point being made is that faith in Jesus saves us, not the law. They taught the law to keep focused on the coming of our Lord.
“After all we can do” sounds really similar to the way we use “after all”. Just shorten the passages to say “after all” and it suddenly makes sense to modern ears because we use “after all” to mean “bottom line” or “final word” or “it comes down to” etc.
Thank you so much for this. I once asked our priesthood class to anonymously indicate if they have done all they could do. On counting the returned papers only one thought he had. So I asked, after carefully reading 2 Nephi 25:23 if they had fallen short of salvation? To say the least, they were a little discombobulated. This led to a great discussion on the nature of Grace. As the branch organist I had to use Brad Wilcox piano lesson example.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano Dargaville, Northland, New Zealand. A branch of about 25-30 active. A beautiful part of the country. Only a few hours from our largest city - Auckland, but far enough away to enjoy nature, the beaches, lakes and forest.
Even "after all we can do, we are saved by grace." 2 Ne. 25:23 Nephi's family arrived in the promised land after all that they could do. But it was only through the help and strength (grace) of God, all along the way, that they achieved their ultimate destiny. Our earthly works do not resurrect us. Our earthly charity does not glorify us. But they do prepare us for Judgment, and for the great day when the Lord will place some at His right hand and the others at His left, and exclaim, "In as much as ye have DONE it unto the least of these My brethren, ye have DONE it unto Me. ... And these shall go...to life eternal." (Matt. 25:40,46)
"...they do prepare us for Judgment." I like that. I have been working on a conversation with an Evangelical Christian on the subject of how grace and works go together, and I tried to explain that the Gospel is one of transformation, not transaction. So all the commandments we are given, as well as the ordinances, are there to transform us so that we have a character like Christ's. I think it is very difficult for this Evangelical friend to see how the gift of salvation can be both a free gift but require our efforts. Any ideas on how to explain that?
@@Sablespartan I don't know what I don't know, so I would have to say offer what you think will be helpful or inspiring, and then I'll ask questions if I think follow-up will be helpful. See, I feel like I understand the doctrine ok, but not how an Evangelical Christian might see the position that they normally have as valid. And so I'm looking for perspective and insight on that front.
@@kennethmoake1448 While not completely polished yet, here are my thoughts on the matter: Salvation Salvation. What is it and how can we receive it? Is it faith, works, justice, mercy, or grace, that saves us? What role do these play in the Plan of Salvation? Salvation can be defined as being saved from sin. For the purpose of this discussion, it will be assumed that salvation will apply to all kingdoms of glory. Exaltation applies to those that inherit the highest kingdom of glory, that is the celestial kingdom. Partakers of both salvation and exaltation have been “saved” or cleansed from sin. The difference between the two is the level of light (truth) that they chose to accept and follow. Psalm 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. What is the Lord rendering? Mercy. The Lord renders or gives mercy according to our works. Proverbs 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; (it is the law) Doth not he that pondereth the heart (The Lord looketh on the heart) consider it? And he that keepeth thy soul, (The Lord) doth not he know it (The law and your soul)? And shall not he render (Mercy) to every man according to his works? Mercy is forgiveness of our sins. It erases them and makes us clean through repentance. Mercy can only exist because of justice. If there was no law, and no punishment, there could be no mercy and forgiveness. Mercy makes us sinless. Mercy does not nullify justice. Rather, it satisfies the demands of justice. We must be perfect to inherit salvation. What then, is perfection? Does being sinless make us perfect? The Guide to the Scriptures defines perfection as “Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through His grace and Atonement.” Perfection therefore, is not just a lack of sin. It is having our nature’s changed and being wholly converted. Converted from the natural man to a saint. The church defines a saint as “The word saint is a translation of a Greek word also rendered “holy,” the fundamental idea being that of consecration or separation for a sacred purpose; but since what was set apart for God must be without blemish, the word came to mean “free from blemish,” whether physical or moral. In the New Testament the saints are all those who by baptism have entered into the Christian covenant” Christ was sinless but not perfect (whole) until after He was resurrected. Despite not sinning, Christ still performed works. He was baptized and Gave us the Atonement. Could he have been perfected without doing this? Christ said in Matthew 3:15 aAnd Jesus answering said unto him, bSuffer it to be so now: for thus it cbecometh us to dfulfil all erighteousness. Then he suffered him. That sounds necessary. He didn’t claim to be perfected until after His resurrection and ascension to His Father in heaven. So, resurrection sounds necessary. D&C 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness; Christ also needed grace. He also had faith in the Father. He didn’t need to repent because He was sinless. But, He fulfilled the other works of the gospel. Faith, baptism, Holy Ghost, enduring to the end. JST, Romans 4:2-5 Joseph Smith Translation 2 For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath to glory in himself; but not of God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. We sin therefore we fall short of the law. Our works can not save us. Neither can faith alone, being dead. Rather, faith (along with agency and humility Ether 12:27) lets us access grace which enables us to do works of righteousness. Galatians 2:16 16 Knowing that a man is not ajustified by the works of the blaw, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the cfaith of Christ, and not by the dworks of the elaw: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be fjustified. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by agrace are ye bsaved through cfaith; and that not of yourselves: it is the dgift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should aboast. We can rule out being saved by works. So, why then, are works needed? D&C 138:59 58 The dead who arepent will be redeemed, through obedience to the bordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the apenalty of their transgressions, and are bwashed clean, shall receive a creward according to their dworks, for they are heirs of salvation. Works then, determine our reward or destination. James 2:17-18 17 Even so afaith, if it hath not bworks, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks. 1 Nephi 15:32-34 32 And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their aworks, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of bprobation. 33 Wherefore, if they should adie in their wickedness they must be bcast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be cjudged of their dworks; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be efilthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot fdwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also. 34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of afilthiness prepared for that which is filthy. We are judged by our works and receive our reward according to our works. Alma 40:13 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the aspirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil-for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their house-and these shall be cast out into couter darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Evil works will cause us to be cast off because they remained carnal and were not converted. D&C 59:23 23 But learn that he who doeth the works of arighteousness shall receive his breward, even cpeace in this world, and deternal life in the world to come. Our reward for righteous works will be peace in this world and eternal life (life with God) in the world to come.
Boy I'm glad you found some great information to rationalize your position and you did a great job at the video. I'll be making a similar one on this topic soon as well. There's a bit of an easier answer than changing it to "despite" in my opinion. If you read Alma the lamanite King says "it was all we could do to repent before the Lord" so what does "all we can do" mean? It means to repent. So how it should be interpreted is "we're saved by grace after our repentance"
I think this is more accurate than the way I understood David's point. Love his work but this one seemed a little forgetful of our side of the covenant. Maybe I'm misinterpreting him though.
Nephi also says this in 2 Nephi 31:19: And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. "Relying wholly on the merits of Him who is mighty to save".
Interesting info. Never heard this before. Makes sense. Thanks!!! My personal experience supports this. I've thought before this could be fixed and correctly interpreted by adding just one word, "... even after all we can do".
This is perfect! If the Book of Mormon had actually meant we need to do works before receiving Christ's grace, we would find other verses of scripture that would further support it which we don't. Excellent video!
Shortly after the "after all we can do" verse is a list of woks: "speak of Christ, preach of Christ, prophesying of Christ" not so they could be saved by doing so, but so their children would know what source to turn to for a remission of their sins.
Its so crazy how haters will so quickly try to throw out an entire religion and cry "false prophet!" because of a single word or phrase in a text that they haven't read, yet it never crosses their mind that they might be the ones misunderstanding! (Looking at you, "Land of Jerusalem"). When I read other religions' texts that I disagree with, I focus on where I disagree theologically, not nitpick the grammar of ancient or medieval idioms. "For when we have carried out all our part, the deficiency caused by human weakness will be filled up by God who cooperates for good in all things with those who love Him, and whose future growth has been foreseen according to His unerring knowledge." Origen
@@james8996 Incorrect. Bethlehem is in the land of Jerusalem. It is a two hour walk from Jerusalem proper. People from that time and before referred to it as being in the land of Jerusalem. Alma is a true prophet.
The best way to understand grace is to have it given to you directly from God when you are sanctified and cleansed from your sins when you've repented, or when you are filled with hope and peace at a time when all things in your life tell you that you should not be feeling hope and peace, but you are still yearning for it from God. You will simultaneously know that you did nothing to deserve it and also that had you not shown your desire for it through your actions (repentance, prayer, yearning) you would not have been ready to receive it. The verse in 2 Nephi 25 : 23 will then be much better understood, and you will know It is therefore fully a gift of love from God.
Beautiful! Thanks so much for making this video. I was going over this verse with my sister just a couple weeks ago and was still confused. This filled in the gap. Great work!
As a Christian, this is refreshing to hear an LDS member share that we are saved only by His grace (through faith in Christ) and not by any works we do. This lines up with what the Bible says in Eph. 2:8-9. I guess my question is I have heard other LDS members share that one must be baptized by someone with proper LDS priesthood authority in order to be saved. So, does someone have any advice how these two views are reconciled? Also, it was neat to see the examples he used of how ‘after all we can do’ could really mean ‘despite all we can do’. Is this the consensus view of the LDS church too? If so, it seems like this is something the LDS church officials should make clear as it relates to the core of the gospel message.
1st, I appreciate your respectful way of commenting … (when I’ve tried to explain to other Christians that we don’t believe we’re saved by works, their response has always been rude & adamantly telling me I just don’t know what I’m talking abt - that they know what my church believes better than I do. So your comment and questions are totally refreshing! I’ve been a member 40 yrs and never been taught anything but saved by grace from the leaders. If you listen to them regularly, that’s the message. We do believe in a 2nd part of grace tho … that Gods grace has the pwr to not only save us, but it also has the pwr to change us. If you’ve ever felt the Spirit come into your heart and fill it w/ love for someone who is hard to love, or to change your unforgiving emotions to pure love & forgiveness toward someone who seriously abused you, you’ll know what I’m talking abt. This is part of the process of being born again - it’s a literal changing of our fallen carnal nature to a more Christlike nature that increases our capacity to love as Jesus loves, & to overcome other challenges in our lives that we can’t overcome w/out drawing on God’s pwr. I know Christians who use “saved by grace” as an excuse to continue in sin - embezzling money, having a relationship w/ a married woman etc, while claiming it’s not a conflict w/ their beliefs. They’re missing out on the joy of the gospel as well as missing out on experiencing God’s pwr to change them. Baptism doesn’t “save us,” but it brings us into a covenant relationship w/ God. Baptism by immersion is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Savior. In a similar way, it represents the end of our old life of sin and a commitment to live a new life as a disciple of Christ. The Savior taught that baptism is a rebirth. When we are baptized we begin the process of being born again and become spiritual sons and daughters of Christ. Furthermore, Baptism is a covenant. covenants are like contracts btwn us & God… they create a special binding relationship w/ Him. He promises to bless us, & we promise to obey Him. As we strive to be obedient, we come to realize our total need & dependence on Him… it’s only thru striving to obey that we truly learn that we can’t do it on our own, & how desperately we need Him. As we seek His help, we experience His pwr & miracles in our lives. As we experience miracles, our faith increases, & our joy & sense of the presence of the Holy Ghost increases. Baptism is a Biblical principle. While some Protestants have recently started to dismiss baptism as a necessary ordinance, many Protestants still follow the pattern of baptizing.
What does Grace mean from an LDS perspective? And, how does this interpretation of 2nd Nephi 25:23, align with the 3rd AoF? 3rd Article of Faith: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." If 2nd Nephi has been historically misunderstood, perhaps the church should modify the passage and fix the issue to avoid the apparent contradictions. This would surely help to alleviate the argument used by critics of the LDS church who claim the church has a works based righteousness... There is a similar passage in the Bible Eph. 2:8-10, which may be the perfect text to use to model the revised version of 2nd Nephi: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Thank you for providing this research. In reviewing the quotes, I saw that your page reference in "A Peep at the Pilgrims in Sixteen Hundred Thirty Six" was page 35. I found the quote on page 106 instead.
Thanks for this. There are aa few different editions published by Google Books that can be viewed online. We probably accidentally mixed and matched with two editions or something like that.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Don't try and save yourself's Christ has already done that for you. May God Bless You
And “faith” is the moving force for all action, whether planting a seed expecting it to grow or putting 1 foot in front of another expecting to walk, to acting on the will of God. Faith is an action word.
As an evangelical outsider, I appreciate the video in that it explains 2 Nephi 25:23 in a way that appears to make sense. I only looked at the context of one of the contemporaneous literature examples but the phrase does seem to mean what’s being suggested. However, if I understand LDS doctrine correctly, it really doesn’t change anything regarding your soteriology (or evangelical heartburn over it 😉). It would appear to me that the church leaders and everyone else who takes “after all we can do” at modern face value are thinking in terms of exaltation, whereas those who take it as explained in this video are thinking in terms of the concept of unconditional salvation regarding universal resurrection. If I’m correct in this, then the evangelical problem with LDS doctrine remains the same: if I want to spend eternity in the presence of Almighty God, such salvation will only come “after all I can do,” correct? For example, “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded” (Joseph Smith); “It will require maximum effort for us to bring ourselves within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved” (Marion Romney); “His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments” (Harold Lee), etc. The only change seems to be that 2 Nephi 25:23 is removed from the discussion.
Also people always take works as if you have to be perfect... To me works is keeping God's commandments. Love God! Love our neighbors. I do that. I'm on a good track. Once again the Bible clearly says faith without works is dead. So what is James talking about? If you have faith in God and you don't show it by being nice to others or keeping God's commandments, do you really have faith?
@@suem6004 no the Bible does not say you are automatically a child of God. You must be adopted as a child of God. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (John 1:12, ESV) Why would the Bible say they are given the right to BECOME children of God if all people already are children of God?
@@suem6004 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (Psalms 14:2, ESV)
I think grace vs works is a false dichotomy. That's made pretty clear in the scriptures. Never does Christ say that he does not require our works. Works aren't what saves us but they are necessary for our exaltation. We have to put in the work to improve ourselves yet it's Christ's atonement that allows us to keep trying and strengthens us as we try. To quote James, "faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone."
Protestantism though has a warped idea of humans as swamp creatures...not sons and daughters of God. Creatures so vile and disgusting that they can not do or be good in anyway shape or form. Jesus saves us because we humans deserve to be crushed instead but God is merciful if we put ourselves under his heel. Now, you can see how Jesus had to right that doctrinal perversion of protestants. The protestants applied their teachings to infants as well. Infants are born filthy and depraved. So infants go to hell. Goodness, thank you Jesus for kicking that wicked doctrine out and instead restored your true gospel.
Grace is God's willingness and ability to do for mankind what we cannot do for ourselves. Salvation is only through grace seeing that we lack the capacity to provide it for ourselves.
I believe that before we can understand this passage we need to understand Nephi and his time period. He is of the house of Israel living 600 years before Christ under the law of Moses. The rest of the chapter after that is all about the law of Moses. Vs 24 we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, Vs 25 wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ Vs 27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, Vs 28 the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law Vs 30 inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses. Therefore it is my interpretation that Nephi is saying he and his posterity are saved by Grace after the law of Moses. (The law of Moses is all Nephi can do). He recognizes he is saved by Grace not the law of Moses.
Grace v. Works is a false dichotomy in my mind. I believe it’s both. We are absolutely saved by Christ’s atonement, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t expected to do anything. Christ paid the price of salvation and now we are in debt to Him. What does he ask us to do? Keep his commandments and repent when we fall short.
Wrong. Justification was never ever a 2 'fer with sanctification. For 1500 years prior to Luther (founder of grace nonsense), Christianity rightly taught that you have to walk the talk. "Keep my commandments". "Do this (eucharist) in remembrance of me." "Go forth unto all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". The Bible never said faith alone. That was added by Luther. All 1500 years prior it said you are saved by faith and works. God does not need more Pharisees who don't walk the talk. Jesus restored his true church in 1830 to repudiate Luther's apostasy on this faith alone mess. We follow Christ and not a crazy, lustful German apostate monk.
Finally, someone is starting to understand Nephi! And if people would just understand that verse in conjunction with 2 Nephi 10:24 and then Ephesians 2:8-9, and then D&C 20:30, and then the JST translation of Romans 3:24, that might put an end to any idea that we are not fully saved by grace. We are not saved by anything we do, although the proof that our faith in Christ is not fake is demonstrated by obedience to Christ as our Lord. True faith in Christ always results in a changed life, but that changed life does not buy us salvation but is instead a result of actually trusting in Christ as our Lord and Savior. Therefore, as the Prophet Nephi says just 2 verses later after the one so often quoted erroneously, "we are made alive in Christ because of our faith", and in that same verse he says, the law has become dead as a doornail unto us. So that's why he says, in verse 26, we talk of Christ, etc, because He is the source our children may look to for a remission of their sins, not anything they do. Yes indeed, as the prophet Nephi also says, "salvation is free".
@@blusheep2 Salvation is deliverance from the power and penalty of sin, from our personal sins as well as our sinful nature. We are justified, forgiven because Christ suffered and died in our place to cleanse us. Christ removes the enmity between us and God and brings us back into a right relationship with God permanently. It is also to be transformed, sanctified, to have our carnal, sinful nature transformed and to be born again. Christ paid the full penalty for all our sins so we could one day be glorified, becoming joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and heirs of all things, which is eternal life. That is what we are saved for. And none of this would have been possible if the Father had not given His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16). We are therefore eternally indebted to God (Mosiah 2:34) and are completely reliant upon His grace (2 Nephi 31:19; Moroni 6:4). Thus, despite all our efforts, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the kind of faith that results in faithfulness to Him until the end (James 2:26; Romans 6:6). There is no other name.
@@TouchstoneAndKeystone This sounds very mainstream Christian to me but it doesn't sound Mormon. Which are you? You quote a lot of the BoM so I assume your Mormon. Is that right? My confusion with Mormon "salvation" is that what you wrote just begs the question, when you consider Mormon doctrine of our eternal nature and exaltation. Joseph said that the only difference between us and the father is the degree of knowledge that is possessed. Everything revolves around knowledge. So I don't understand how the father is "delivering" us from anything much less sin. It seems more accurate to say that the father provided us with an environment that allows us to learn about sin so that we can overcome it personally. If this is a reasonable way to look at it then it only follows that the father isn't really needed for our exaltation. The priesthood doesn't make a lot of sense for our exaltation other then one of many tools that could help us reach it. The gift of the father would be in the world and structure he provided that allows us to reach our exaltation more quickly. He doesn't have the authority to grant us exaltation. He can only nurture us along. Can you tell me if any of this seems unreasonable to you considering Joseph's teaching on our eternal nature, the father, and our exaltation?
@@blusheep2 There is no such thing as “Mormon salvation”: there is only God’s salvation, which comes through faith in Jesus Christ as described previously. Our ETERNAL nature is what God says it is in the canonized scriptures, such as the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon, and that eternal nature is transformed through Jesus Christ, also explained above. Knowledge is NOT salvation (that’s the heresy of Gnosticism), though it is necessary and life eternal to know God Himself and Jesus Christ who He sent (John 17:3), because, as the Prophet Joseph Smith said, “It is impossible for a [sinful] man to be saved in ignorance [of Christ]” (D&C 131:6; also see 2 Nephi 25:26). So while Adam and Eve lacked knowledge about many things when God first created them, they were pure UNTIL they disobeyed Him. Now, because you and I have all sinned (Rom. 3:23) and are in a sinful world, the Apostle Paul tells us we must “overcome evil with good” (Rom. 12:21), which the Apostle John agrees with (Rev. 12:11). Paul later tells us we can only do that “through Christ which strentheneth [us]” (Phil. 4:13). Thus, we are completely helpless without Christ, and we desperately needed the Father to send Him (and for more than just payment of our sins), which He did. We can no more exalt ourselves than we can save ourselves. Therefore, it is God who saves and exalts us in glory with Him, if we rely wholly on Christ. You see, our doctrine is correctly understood only by staying within the pages of the canonized scriptures, “the iron rod” (1 Nephi 11:25; 2 Timothy 3:15), which God has personally certified. And remember, only Jesus spoke flawlessly, not Peter, Moses, Paul or Joseph Smith. Thus, the only way we can correctly interpret what such leaders meant is WITH the scriptures, NOT in spite of them (Acts 17:11), and WITH the Holy Ghost (2 Pet. 1:20-21), who never contradicts them (2 Tim. 2:13; Jacob 4:13; 1 Cor. 14:33).
@@TouchstoneAndKeystone Well there is a difference if Mormon theology teaches something different then mainstream Christianity. I'm trying to understand if it does. I am aware of what scripture teaches about salvation. I am only confused by what Mormons teach as salvation. In mainstream Christianity, we are nothing. We are creatures of the almighty first cause of all things. Mormomism teaches we are all of the same substance with the only difference being that the father has more knowledge than us and therefore more power. The father isn't responsible for our existence in Mormonism while He is, in mainstream Christianity. When I say "our existence" I don't mean our existence on earth. I'm talking about our ontology. With this understanding, I'm having a hard time identifying what salvation even means for a Mormon. Why all the fuss about salvation? I don't understand. Your eternal regardless of the father's work in your life. IF the father didn't exist then you still would and still could learn and become exalted. Do you see why I'm confused? In mainstream Christianity, we are saved from our sinful nature and by the work of the cross we gain eternal life through Jesus. A Mormon already believes they have eternal life, regardless of what Christ did because they are already eternal entities. So what are we saved from? How does the father's forgiveness play into our exaltation if exaltation is about knowledge and nothing else as Joseph Smith claimed? Are you suggesting that what he taught was wrong because it doesn't conform to scripture or are you saying something else? I'm trying to dig deep here because I don't want to strawman the Mormon position, but the work of Christ and exaltation theology don't seem to me to be consistent. One seems arbitrary.
Dave, I wish to rave: you guys have great graphics! And video can be rated as sophisticated. Yet I wonder about the blunder of intellectualizing a beautifully simple idea. Elder Uchtdorf gives a caution; maybe his stuff is good enough. Some Latter-day Saints wish to niggle; we don’t have to follow their lead.
The answer is in the Book of Mormon: "all we can do is REPENT" - ALMA 24 verse 11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to atake them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.
There is a phrase used in Christianity that I don’t think is used a lot in this discussion and it’s “Now, Not Yet.” And, I’m not sure if i’m using this correctly, but it’s kind of, We are both “Now” saved by Christ, because he has already payed the price for sin and broke the bands of death, but we have “Not yet” come into his glory or have been removed from mortal trials or temptations. We have both been delivered and still fighting. You are both saved by Christ and still need to call upon him and Choose him every day
Great explanation and yes we are saved by his grace inspite all we can do. But that does not mean we don't have to do anything. We do have to do our best every day to do his will and exercise or faith making and keeping convenient. There are those who define that as work salvation. Has Jesus Christ covered us by his atonement yes and he has set the reqirements and his grace is saficant for those that strive to be perfected in him.
"For those that strive to be perfected in him." Though the bible clearly states in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There's NO such thing as a perfect person.
What did Jesus say to the criminal on the cross after he asked Jesus to remember him. He said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." What did that man do to deserve his grace? All he did was believe.
Makes us as members really have to examine whether or not we are renegotiating the text of the Book of Mormon just like most Christians today renegotiate the words of the Bible.
It is a silly and contentious argument against a perfectly wholesome doctrine. One cannot follow Jesus Christ without making the effort to do so. And so, the argument is due to their not following Jesus Christ.
I would push and say that you aren’t making the effort. It’s God miraculous work that regenerates someones spirit to cause them to follow him. It isn’t you at all.
@@hollon1697 I see your point. But everyone has free choice. So no, it isn't compulsion at all. Otherwise everyone would follow Jesus Christ. Every part of the gospel is a command regarding our conduct and behavior. And that is "works". "Enter ye in, choose ye this day, be not hearers but doers" Those who on this point condemn the LDS Church are not followers of Jesus Christ. They are petty instigators, who don't even understand what they pretend to know.
Martin Luther who invented the contention against all Christian theology on this topic comes from a view that humans are disgusting swamp creatures and God should crush us. By some miracle he does not. Humans are so disgusting that they always choose the wrong unless the fear of God hangs over their head. So, evangelicals give up with any effort to follow Christ’s admonition to keep his commandments. Therefore humans are going to continue to sin ‘and sin boldly’ so said Luther so eat, drink and edit the bible to alter scripture to have saved by faith ALONE. The last word was added. LDS follow Catholicism, and Orthodoxy on this topic. The protestants are the odd balls.
3:42 this point is really funny because that's exactly how the CES Letter is sold. The site says they will send a free book to you as long as you made a minimum donation of $15. (It's technically something like $14.99 or something)
I will raise you this verse: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved." --2 Nephi 10:24 To be fair, Mormon theology is not the same as what Martin Luther taught, and what is taught by many today. There are no works that can atone for sin. We need the atonement to gain salvation from sin, so the only possible way we can gain salvation is by the grace of God. And yet God will not save everyone. Only those that have real Faith in Christ can gain salvation from sin. But is faith just believing? The lukewarm and devils "believe" so "faith" has to be more than just believing. James, who was taught by Jesus himself, says: "You see that a person is ***justified by works*** and NOT by faith ALONE." --James 2:24 NASB
Martin Luther, the apostate, taught a corrupt grace salvation. Grace alone was never in the Bible. Luther added "alone' when he edited the Bible. So, all grace alone is from 1517 onwards and among protestants. LDS align with Catholicism and Orthodoxy of justification is separate from sanctification. So, you have 3 against 1 in terms of grace alone saves. All others read the Bible that explicitly states the need to walk the talk. Ie keep the commandments, keep the sacraments that Jesus instituted: baptism, marriage, eucharist. LDS need to distance ourselves from the protestant apostasy. No need to try to make them our friends doctrinally. Martin Luther famously said: "go forth and sin but sin boldly... even should you fornicate or murder 1000s of times a day... only believe". That is cheap grace Luther invented to rid his own lustful guilt. Well, as an innate depraved human there will never be a chance for me not to sin, so the heck with it.... sin all you want... 'cause grace alone saves. This is the context of the restoration. Jesus Christ labeled all that as an abomination. He restored his true gospel which aligns with 1500 years of previous Christianity prior to Luther. Justification (salvation) and sanctification are not a 'one and done' thing. Not a "two 'fer"
Thirty years ago, the interpretation you present in this video (after=despite) would have been considered highly controversial if not heretical. I was chastised by church leaders for advancing this view, which would need no explanation now if the LDS apostles had for decades bothered to make it clear in conference. But they did not.
What about this If-Then statement in the Book of Mormon? Moroni 10:32 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God
I don't understand why it would be problematic the other way around. Even if we read, "we are saved by grace AFTER all we can do", we are saved only after we do everything we can to save ourselves. We only receive grace once we have done everything we can do to repent and follow Jesus. This doesn't mean that we are saved BY our works, it means we are saved BY grace. Our works cannot save us because they are not sufficient to cleanse us from sin and make us perfect. Only the grace of Christ can do that. We are only granted grace after sufficient effort to follow Christ. We will not be saved by praising Jesus and then continuing to live in sin.
May I make a suggestion, I believe 2 25:23 is absolutely correct translation. The "inspite of all we can do" is nice but wrong. Don't let the evangelicals tell you otherwise. 2 ne 25:23 reads as it should. If you continue reading the rest of the verses, it explains in great detail exactly what is meant by "after all you can do." It is found in verses 29-30. Just reading verse 23 is not enough. You have to read the rest of the chapter. This is one of the faults of evangelicals they stop and get hung up on one scripture and ignore what else is said. Christ clearly taught the "after all you can do." If we don't have faith, believe in christ repent and get baptized (the ordinances mentioned in verse 29-30) christ grace can not save us. Also, loving god as it says with all your might, mind, and strength requires doing!! Remember, christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. So, yes, we must do the after all we can do's. Great video by the way!!
Well we need to keep our covenants which require some effort or work. I guess it is all in the definition of "work"... no we are not saving ourselves. We are keeping our covenants. The Savior will be the one who saves us.
Hi Valerie. As you might have seen, we reference a previous video about 5 seconds into this episode that focuses more on the discussion of grace vs. works. I hope you'll check it out, as it helps to further address your question.
The simplest example is the essence of gift giving…100% of the gift is His. Receiving the gift is not black and white. As kids we open the box and play with the box not understanding the value and offering of a gift we were to Receive. “After All we can do” means we still have covenants and ordinances to fully receive the gift and through his grace we have ample opportunity to do so but in the end will have to be the one to receive the gift
I look at "after" as if you have to try to get saved... The Bible teaches it clearly. If you love me keep my commandments so you keeping commandments, You're trying to show your love to the savior. Or even better you're trying to be like Jesus That is what I look at after... A lot of non-members look at it as that you have to run a mile in 4 minutes to make it into heaven. There wouldn't be a lot of people in heaven if that was the case. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a murderous or rapist man want to be saved by Jesus without that change of heart and without trying to come closer to God. No one's going to want the grace of Christ in their life if they don't believe and no one that believes won't try to keep God's commandments
Love your channel it highlights a different biblical perspective, some of which I agree with, however, I have a few questions. How do you reconcile much of the contradictions Mormon teachings have when evaluated in light of the Torah and the Gospels, for-instance, 1. Mormons teach that God the Father was once human which means he was born as opposed to being eternally uncreated, which is contradictory to the Torah and the gospels 2. Mormon teaching also expounds idea that we as believers can achieve godhood.
If God was once a mortal being it is in no way inconsistent with the fact that He now has all power and all knowledge and possesses every virtue, grace, and godly attribute that the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants have said God has. Irenaeus, a highly respected and influential early church father, stated "How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For thou dost not make God, but God thee" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 4:523, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:523-524) Here Irenaeus, an early church father, argues that how can we become a god, if we were not once a man. Using this same line of argument, how could God become a God, if He was not a man once? John 5:19 says The Son can’t do anything that He hasn’t seen the Father do. Would that mean that God lived as a spirit in a pre-mortal life, was born and received a body, died, and was resurrected and Jesus imitated what the father did? If God was once a mortal being then we still believe He has always existed. D&C 93:29 “Man was also in the beginning with God. *Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.”* Exaltation is stated in the bible and is one of the things God has promised us. We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (Psalms 82:6, Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:7). We have been granted the opportunity to be exalted (1 Peter 5:6) and be able to sit on the throne of God just like Jesus Christ through Jesus Christ (Revelations 3:21, Revelations 21:7). What God wants is for us to be perfect like him (Matthew 5:48). God is called the Father for a reason and as every (good) parent wants is for their children to be like them. Jesus Christ showed us the way to becoming a god. To say otherwise limits what God has promised us. Exaltation was taught by many of the old Christians like St Irenaeus "Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods?” and St Clements of Alexandria “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods and gods are men." Even St Augustine "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God, for he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” Because a lot of people will say this, the first lie wasn’t “thou shall be as Gods, knowing good from evil” but “Thou shalt surely not die”. We know this because God in Genesis 3:22 says “Then the Lord God said, “See, *the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil,* and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”
@@allieooop3923 "They were teaching deification consistent with the Trinity." What does how the trinity is viewed have to do with anything I said? Honestly I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. The 2 quotes you provided don't share anything about the trinity, just that God is an incorporeal being. Though, I am not arguing they didn't believe in the pagan and unbiblical view of God because that false belief was starting to become popular around their time period. While false beliefs were coming into the gospel that didn't happen over night and was a slow process. According to the pagan view of the trinity, Jesus Christ is God and is of one essence with Him. St Clements of Alexandria said "the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.", the Word of God being Jesus Christ. So if Jesus Christ, who according to the pagan view already is God, showed us how to become a God then how does that not mean what I am saying? Eternal life and Exaltation are not the same thing. You can have Eternal life and not be exalted.
@@brettmajeske3525 yes it is, if you were born it means you didn't always exist, but rather you came into existence at some point in time, which means you were created, that is the exact opposite of being eternally uncreated, how is that not contradictory? Furthernore the torah and the gospels teach that God was not born but he was always uncreated and eternal, this is in contradiction with Mormon teaching
@@dylanwilliams2202 I understand what you're saying but you haven't addressed my question. Mormon teaching says God was once born, if you were born it means you didn't always exist, but rather you came into existence at some point in time, which means you were created, that is the exact opposite of what the Torah and the gospels teach, they teach that God was never mortal, but rather to that he has always existed and was not created or born.
Of course that is what this passage means. After all (regardless of what we can do), it is by Christ's grace that we are saved. In the crossing of the Red Sea, the children of Israel didn't move one drop of water, yet they passed through on dry ground. They were simply required to use the escape route provided so mercifully.
@@joeoleary9010 The first time any Church leader is recorded as explicitly having a different interpretation is in the 1970s, and the push back against it starts in the 1990s. Since far more leaders, both before and after this period agree with the way David explains it, it is actually the more orthodox explanation. Did you bother checking out the resources provided? This is not just David making things ups.
Why do we isolate scripture? God's telling us something with many scriptures together. It should be read as the chapter. He reveals to those who are wanting to worship him in spirit and in truth. When we isolate scripture, we can easily use man's interpretations. Like end time prophesy where people will pull from Isaiah, Jeremiah, revelation. But they're meant to remain together as a book. Thank you for your website.
The main difference (and or) confusion here, is that the definition of "grace" is being used incorrectly. Everyone who has lived, is now living, and will still live on the Earth are redeemed (or resurrected) by His atonement even if they have lived sinful lives. The "all you can do" part determines largely what our ultimate destination will be....Or in other words, what degree of glory we receive. "Faith without works is dead" is true on a spectrum. We are saved by the atonement and death of Jesus Christ regardless of works....But "works" rather, make specific, our ultimate landing point in the Mansions above.
But even those works can only be effective with Christ's grace and they are only manifestations of greater faith. Achieving various degrees of glory is still about faith and grace.
@@rockartalan ……Agreed. I think we’re both right. This is a concept that can take us around in circles if we over think it. I just hope my faith is sufficient when I’m done with my time here. Have a good brother.
If my kids asked for ice cream while eating their dinner, and I said that they could have ice cream *after* they finish their veggies, how should my kids interpret what I’m saying?
This verse is also complicated by our use of "Salvation" as a declarative reward somewhere in the future. This kind of arbitrary concept diminishes the actual power of God's Grace. It still supposes that Grace is an exception to the rule, some kind of stop gap for our inability to get all the way there. Brandon Peterson says it beautifully, "Mercy doesn't emerge as a function of humans conforming to the divinely willed order-- Indeed, such a mechanical, propitiatory mercy would fail to be mercy at all. Rather, that humans are brought back into this order, and are thus able to enjoy the happiness meant for them, is the "Result" of God's expiatory action in Jesus Christ". If we take Salvation as the creative process of changing our souls, it's then easier to see Grace as a free-flowing gift, that is the very fuel that ignites that change. Salvation is not a reward in the hereafter, it begins herenow, through this synergistic relationship with God, that we call covenant.
I think latter day saint members generally believe it both ways. We emphasize (more recently than in the past) that by grace we are saved, but we also are saved my our ordinances and covenants. If we can't remain temple worthy we won't make it to the highest kingdom of heaven. That sounds a lot like we are saved by grace After all we can do, not despite. So I'm not sure we have made up our mind which side of this fence we are on yet.
I think the difference is we don’t believe “being saved” is a 1 time event… it’s a process as we’re born again, and again, and again… as our faith, testimonies & love of the Lord increases as we strive to live our covenants.
The past Mormon general authorities and a lot of the Mormon prophets and lay church members definitely did interpret 2 Nephi 25:23 to means you don’t get grace until after you’ve done all you can do. Look at the book the miracle of forgiveness by Spencer w kimball, he definitely interpreted it that way. It’s confusing Messages in the Mormon church. One guy is saying this and later another guy is saying that which is it?
The Latter day Saint definition for grace is Help and mercy from God, not unmerited favor. Who has the authority to define grace, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Almost all Christians, including most in the church do not understand Paul . Paul's entire mission, his every letter is to teach that the Law of Moses cannot save anyone, even the ten commandments, because they only require an outward effort to keep them. All of Christ's teachings require a person to change from their inner man, their spirit to keep them. To love even your enemies, to not even lust. 2 Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, Every time Paul says works cannot save you always add the works of the law of Moses cannot save you. That is what Paul means. Paul was not writing his letters to you, he was writing his letters to members who were mostly Gentiles influenced by members who were Jews. Totally different context than what most people think. Also, Paul mostly corrected the New Testament saints in his letters, but did not cover what they were doing right, except in a few instances, so we cannot know what the New testament Christians were teaching at Sunday school without God telling us. God told us in the D&C through Joseph Smith,.
EVEN - EVEN EVEN: Input the word EVEN Prior to after and the meaning changes to what Nephi meant and would render a better translation for today's standards. Even after all we can do...
That isn't a translation then. Its a paraphrase. Its adding a word to the text that doesn't belong. Its better to just give the cultural context though that brings up other problems.
You explain it very well. But this is not what Mormons believe. If Mormons truly believe the grace of Jesus Christ, then they should abandon the teachings of the Mormon prophets because this is not what they taught. And the foundation of Mormon church is based on a different Jesus Christ and different gospel of the Bible.
The quote at 4:42 requires a considerably intelligent mind and probably a dictionary to really "get". I had to look up 3 or 4 words in my dictionary to understand it in its intended meaning. I highly recommend pursuing the full understanding of it!
@@joeoleary9010 I meant the meaning of the quote. We don't need something exclusively from Joseph Smith to know absolutely about the Book of Mormon. That ideal is fundamentally contractive of the purpose of written histories and teachings (that the Book of Mormon is); and once I understood the words I hadn't heard before that this person used, I reread the quote so I grasped what the the person was trying to say instead of trying to understand something I actually had no idea about. That process is what I was and am encouraging others to do. I don't cherry pick multiples meanings of words to twist the intents of what people say. Are you so confident about what it means to cherry pick meanings of words because it's something you do?
Dan Mclellan doesn't even believe basic Christian doctrines. He is a progressive. Also, why didn't God just use the word despite? Why did he us the word after? the BOM is supposed to be a perfect translation. But now we are changing God's perfect words because Latter Day Saints want to appear more Christian. David even showed us in the beginning that in 1970 they were teaching that they were saved by works.
What is really 'all we can do?' Accept the saviors atoning sacrifice because of ourselves the only thing we are worthy of is death and hell. Make sense?
Gee,.. Nephi was speaking to ancient Hebrews around 600 years before the birth of Christ. No "Saving Grace of Jesus" had yet been offered to the world. In fact Nephi and his contemporaries were living according to the Law of Moses. And FYI, there are over 600 rules, regulations and observances, associated with Mosaic Law. Nephi's statement therefore, are entirely consistent with his own time and space. (Do you think Joseph Smith at twenty-two, was thinking about this when he concocted the Book of Mormon?) Sure the scripture is applicable to us as well, but Nephi was speaking specifically to his family and friends. Nephi goes on to explain his knowledge of the Savior and what will come to pass (600 years in his future.) But being "saved by grace" was never an Old Testament topic.
@@suem6004 I didn't know that but evangelicals are fond of quoting several New Testament scriptures, while the scripture of James who says that "faith without works is dead" is being misinterpreted.
Protestants believe Paul is talking about all works cannot save you, when he is really teaching that the works of the law of Moses cannot save you. He spent his entire Christian ministry countering the teachings bu some Jews who had become Christians that all of the law is fulfilled in Christ. Christ's commandments require us to change from our spirit to obey Him, whereas non of the law of Moses requires us to change from our spirit to obey it. For example, a person may never commit adultery, may never murder, and by so doing have kept those parts of thevlaw perfectly, but they are not saved, because, as Paul states, even though he kept the law blameless, which he said twice, he was full of spirit sins, lust, jealousy, hate, envey.. That is why he glories in the law of the inward man. 2 cor 3:7-11 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious Paul is right, the law of Moses cannot save, meaning deliver you from sin, but to not lust, and to not hat can. When you are shed of pride, when you love God and all people, when you do not lust you are delivered , saved, from sin through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and by His grace, which means help and mercy from God. Help and mercy for what to change. Definitely works are nessesary for salvation. When you decide you are going g to follow Christ, you will notice He will send people your way to help. A father with his young child at the grocery store that dies not have enough money to buy his newborn child diapers, or formula. If you are able, and you do not do the works of helping g him, are you saved?
One interpretation I heard was Lehi and company were under the law of Moses. As such there were certain rituals they needed to follow to be saved. Thus the statement "after all we can do".
Unless you posit that the Christian doctrine of free grace is, to a degree, nonsensical. Rereading the text examples shown it could read as "by grace ye are save, AS YOU DO all that you can do." The Book of Mormon does not include the word "free" or infer it in any of its descriptions of grace. The unprofitable servant in Mosiah 2 was still asked to be a servant. It would be nonsensical to call his salvation free.
It amazes me how people must insist to give so much grief over one word in the Book of Mormon when both "works based salvation" people and "faith alone salvation" people cherry pick their own interpretations of entire chapters of what the Bible says about both. Y'all have 0 authority to decide how we interpret our own scripture when your own beliefs are built on such a sandy scriptural foundation.
I rhis we need to let scripture interpret scripture. Aft we all we can do means, we do our part to be righteous to obtain the worthiness to receive salvation and then grace makes up the difference.
A quote I have come to appreciate, shared by a general authority, once had this to say about Christ's grace - "Jesus doesn’t make up the difference. Jesus makes all the difference. Grace is not about filling gaps. It is about filling us."
Check out "after all" in the following examples: Alma 10:4-5 And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry. Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. Mosiah 3:8-9 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
I like to think of it in the terms of the first great commandment it's simplist Love god with all your soul... Enough said.... If you remember Abraham he was commanded to sacrifice Isaac his only son. He showed god he was willing to give his son to God. This was accounted into him for rightousness. Our rightous works justify us. In this are ye justified. Is a question of the ages. Is what you ate doing justified. Even as the angels are justified.
Mormonism does many external things to try to have access heaven, such as temple work, temple ceremonies, eternal marriage, Priesthood, word of wisdom, etc. External religious acts never give you access to the kingdom of God. God gave us a free gift, it is called grace, which involves righteousness, once we are saved, we all need to work internally to increase. But we do not have to do a play to get to heaven. You cannot make grace happen, it is like a fruit on a tree that naturally ripens on the vine. Those who believe in the true Jesus of the bible will ripen by the vine of God. John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me, has eternal life." Jesus is significant. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not according to works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8.
You are misunderstanding what Latter-day Saints understand saved to be. Being saved is being given the path to eternal life. We are saved from the miserable and depraved condition that results from not knowing the path. That path can be called eternal life. But what is eternal life? It is living a Christ like life or being Christ like. Since actual Christ like behavior is perfection, it is a process of becoming. A sincere follower of Christ will welcome any tool God provides to assistance in the process following better, as we struggle in our fallen state to be more like Him. What you call "external religious acts" are nothing more than heavenly tools that are God's gifts to us to help us on this journey of a disciple of Christ. These external acts are not for the purpose of gaining brownie points that add up to a magical sum that equals going to heaven. Going to heaven is not the prize to be won, but becoming more like Christ is. And that is a process that continues beyond this life.
"Mormonism does many external things to try to have access heaven, such as temple work, temple ceremonies, eternal marriage, Priesthood, word of wisdom" That is not true. All of this is for exaltation or to help our ancestors to receive Salvation (baptism for the dead) and exaltation (everything else). Baptism is the only thing required to get into the Celestial Kingdom according to many verses in the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. When talking about who gets in to the Celestial Kingdom, it is said in D&C 76:51-52 "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;" According to the Key words bible, the works in Ephesians 2:8-9 was meaning the law of Moses. Meaning that this should be read as "Not of the law of Moses, lest any man should boast". Key words Bible 2041. More specifically "Works of the law, meaning works required or comfortable to the Mosaic moral law and required by this law". Meaning the sacrifice or prerequisite required by the moral law to gain access to forgiveness is what is being talked about in Ephesians 2:8-9. From Leviticus chapters 4-7, when you broke the Mosaic moral law you had to work or do a prerequisite by sacrificing animals to gain God’s forgiveness. Paul rejects the idea of God’s grace having any prerequisite in Ephesians 2:8-9, saying God's grace or forgiveness has no requirements or no sacrifice you have to do to get. Then in Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Or in a simple way, Jesus Christ saved us freely through his death and now we have to walk in the good works that God created for us so their grace may affect our lives more abundantly. Jesus Christ dying on the cross is what allows us to be forgiven of our sins and is the gateway for us to be resurrected and have eternal life. Without that, no matter what we do, we wouldn't be able to save ourselves from our sins without the atonement. We believe that we are saved by grace through faith but that faith isn't just professed belief and is also expressed in our behavior and/or works (Matthew 7:21-23, James 2:14-26, Titus 1:16, Isaiah 29:13). Or put simply, works are outward manifestations of faith in Christ that allows God’s and Jesus Christ’s grace to increase and affect our lives more abundantly (Ephesians 2:10). However those works are not what save us, it is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paved the path to God with his blood when he was crucified and you have to follow the path that was laid out for us to walk in to get to God. The path we must walk to live with God again that the Bible (and Book of Mormon) has said to do is to 1st have faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:36, John 6:29) 2nd keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 11:28, John 14:15, John 14:21, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17) and not to purposefully sin and/or repent when you have made a sinned (Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30, 1 John 1:9), 3rd make and keep the ordinances that God has asked of us like baptism (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-10, Titus 3:5), 4th to serve others and love (Matthew 20:28, John 13:34-35, Galatians 5:13-14, 1 Peter 4:10-11) and 5th faithfully endure to the end (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 2:26). That path is God’s and Jesus Christ's grace and walking on the path that was paved for us by Christ is our faith and continuing being on that path will allow their grace to increase in your life. It is clearly defined but also straight and narrow and you can slip off the path. The good thing is you can always return to the path. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the bible better than any other denomination. Join God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and join their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you.
@@joeoleary9010 Hey, I encourage you to study the Bible at least once. Matthew 19:16-17 " Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is one who is good. *If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”* John 14:21 *"They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me,* and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.” Hebrews 5:8-9 "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, 9 and having been made perfect, *he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"* 1 John 5:2-3 *"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.* 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" Mark 16:16 *"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved,* but the one who does not believe will be condemned." Acts 22:16 "And now why do you delay? *Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."* Romans 6:3-10 "Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 *Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.* 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, so we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus"
@@rockartalan Careful where you get your so-called heavenly tools, Satan disguised himself as an angel. And you are right, our goal is to be more like Christ, but we cannot get to Christ or be like Him if we do not follow His doctrine.
@@dylanwilliams2202 You must first have the correct Jesus, Jesus is not created, He always was and always is. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last. Rev 1:8.
I must read in the way that men did 200 years ago because I was actually surprised when I learned critics had interpreted this verse that way. It had never even popped into my head in my 6 read-throughs of the BoM that “after all we can do” could mean anything other than “despite all we can do”.
Same here!
Same
One thing that hit me is that I can’t even breathe except by the grace of god. My digestion my eyesight my hands feet legs or arms can’t work by my will. Some miraculous power other than me makes all that happen. I’d say that’s a big dose of grace even Before all I can do 👍🏻
Crazy...Fifteen minutes ago, I began my scripture study. I couldn't remember exactly where I left off but I felt impressed to begin in 2 Nephi 25. It's a longer chapter so admittedly I would've usually skipped it when I was unsure where I last reading. I came across verse 23 (the one discussed in this video), remembered that Saints Unscripted made a RUclips Short addressing that particular topic and I sidetracked to go look for it.
When I logged on, this video was at the top of my recommendations. Published an hour ago as of writing this comment. Very cool. Very thankful for the resources and growing my brain. I appreciate it, guys!
We're glad it helped!
Cool experience!!
Thank you so much for this! I had started ignoring that phrase because it didn't make sense with what Uchtdorf and other leaders were saying, but i wasnt satisfied with just ignoring it. This makes so much sense! Thank you again!
The main thing is to believe in Christ and His grace to save us. Doing all that we can will surely help magnify His grace towards us. It is really important to understand the source of this Grace which can save us.
The grace that says 'go forth and sin boldly.... even is you murder a thousand times a day, you will be saved." Don't think so, Charlie. That is wicked, perverse doctrine by apostate Martin Luther.
Well explained. The more I studied Martin Luther, the founder if all protestants, the more I see how that detoured from pure Christian doctrine and how an absolute course correction was needed via the restoration
@@joeoleary9010 Show evidence or shut up
Great video. This makes so much more sense. Thanks for making this video. I adore that entire talk by Uchtdorf.
You're very welcome!
And so once again it proves how inherent things are made by "self-inherency" when it comes to the Bible, and how everything outside of that framework is treated with a lense of critic and preassumption.. Great video
Reading the whole chapter it's clear that those people were living under the law of Moses and the point being made is that faith in Jesus saves us, not the law. They taught the law to keep focused on the coming of our Lord.
“After all we can do” sounds really similar to the way we use “after all”. Just shorten the passages to say “after all” and it suddenly makes sense to modern ears because we use “after all” to mean “bottom line” or “final word” or “it comes down to” etc.
That's how I've come to understand it, too. Thanks for those additional examples!
That's an interesting, new-to-me thought that seems (in my mind and heart) to be right. Like "at the end of the day..."
Thank you so much for this. I once asked our priesthood class to anonymously indicate if they have done all they could do. On counting the returned papers only one thought he had. So I asked, after carefully reading 2 Nephi 25:23 if they had fallen short of salvation? To say the least, they were a little discombobulated. This led to a great discussion on the nature of Grace. As the branch organist I had to use Brad Wilcox piano lesson example.
You're in a branch? Where do you live? 😊
I'm our ward's Primary pianist.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano Dargaville, Northland, New Zealand. A branch of about 25-30 active. A beautiful part of the country. Only a few hours from our largest city - Auckland, but far enough away to enjoy nature, the beaches, lakes and forest.
Even "after all we can do, we are saved by grace." 2 Ne. 25:23
Nephi's family arrived in the promised land after all that they could do. But it was only through the help and strength (grace) of God, all along the way, that they achieved their ultimate destiny.
Our earthly works do not resurrect us.
Our earthly charity does not glorify us.
But they do prepare us for Judgment, and for the great day when the Lord will place some at His right hand and the others at His left, and exclaim, "In as much as ye have DONE it unto the least of these My brethren, ye have DONE it unto Me. ... And these shall go...to life eternal." (Matt. 25:40,46)
Thank you; I like this a lot (and agree).
"...they do prepare us for Judgment."
I like that. I have been working on a conversation with an Evangelical Christian on the subject of how grace and works go together, and I tried to explain that the Gospel is one of transformation, not transaction. So all the commandments we are given, as well as the ordinances, are there to transform us so that we have a character like Christ's.
I think it is very difficult for this Evangelical friend to see how the gift of salvation can be both a free gift but require our efforts. Any ideas on how to explain that?
@kennethmoake1448 How in-depth of a response do you want?
@@Sablespartan I don't know what I don't know, so I would have to say offer what you think will be helpful or inspiring, and then I'll ask questions if I think follow-up will be helpful.
See, I feel like I understand the doctrine ok, but not how an Evangelical Christian might see the position that they normally have as valid. And so I'm looking for perspective and insight on that front.
@@kennethmoake1448 While not completely polished yet, here are my thoughts on the matter:
Salvation
Salvation. What is it and how can we receive it? Is it faith, works, justice, mercy, or grace, that saves us? What role do these play in the Plan of Salvation?
Salvation can be defined as being saved from sin. For the purpose of this discussion, it will be assumed that salvation will apply to all kingdoms of glory. Exaltation applies to those that inherit the highest kingdom of glory, that is the celestial kingdom. Partakers of both salvation and exaltation have been “saved” or cleansed from sin. The difference between the two is the level of light (truth) that they chose to accept and follow.
Psalm 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
What is the Lord rendering? Mercy. The Lord renders or gives mercy according to our works.
Proverbs 24:12
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; (it is the law) Doth not he that pondereth the heart (The Lord looketh on the heart) consider it? And he that keepeth thy soul, (The Lord) doth not he know it (The law and your soul)? And shall not he render (Mercy) to every man according to his works?
Mercy is forgiveness of our sins. It erases them and makes us clean through repentance. Mercy can only exist because of justice. If there was no law, and no punishment, there could be no mercy and forgiveness. Mercy makes us sinless. Mercy does not nullify justice. Rather, it satisfies the demands of justice.
We must be perfect to inherit salvation. What then, is perfection? Does being sinless make us perfect? The Guide to the Scriptures defines perfection as “Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through His grace and Atonement.” Perfection therefore, is not just a lack of sin. It is having our nature’s changed and being wholly converted. Converted from the natural man to a saint. The church defines a saint as “The word saint is a translation of a Greek word also rendered “holy,” the fundamental idea being that of consecration or separation for a sacred purpose; but since what was set apart for God must be without blemish, the word came to mean “free from blemish,” whether physical or moral. In the New Testament the saints are all those who by baptism have entered into the Christian covenant”
Christ was sinless but not perfect (whole) until after He was resurrected. Despite not sinning, Christ still performed works. He was baptized and Gave us the Atonement. Could he have been perfected without doing this? Christ said in Matthew 3:15 aAnd Jesus answering said unto him, bSuffer it to be so now: for thus it cbecometh us to dfulfil all erighteousness. Then he suffered him.
That sounds necessary. He didn’t claim to be perfected until after His resurrection and ascension to His Father in heaven. So, resurrection sounds necessary.
D&C 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;
Christ also needed grace. He also had faith in the Father. He didn’t need to repent because He was sinless. But, He fulfilled the other works of the gospel. Faith, baptism, Holy Ghost, enduring to the end.
JST, Romans 4:2-5
Joseph Smith Translation
2 For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath to glory in himself; but not of God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
We sin therefore we fall short of the law. Our works can not save us. Neither can faith alone, being dead. Rather, faith (along with agency and humility Ether 12:27) lets us access grace which enables us to do works of righteousness.
Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not ajustified by the works of the blaw, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the cfaith of Christ, and not by the dworks of the elaw: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be fjustified.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by agrace are ye bsaved through cfaith; and that not of yourselves: it is the dgift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should aboast.
We can rule out being saved by works. So, why then, are works needed?
D&C 138:59
58 The dead who arepent will be redeemed, through obedience to the bordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the apenalty of their transgressions, and are bwashed clean, shall receive a creward according to their dworks, for they are heirs of salvation.
Works then, determine our reward or destination.
James 2:17-18
17 Even so afaith, if it hath not bworks, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks.
1 Nephi 15:32-34
32 And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their aworks, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of bprobation.
33 Wherefore, if they should adie in their wickedness they must be bcast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be cjudged of their dworks; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be efilthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot fdwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of afilthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
We are judged by our works and receive our reward according to our works.
Alma 40:13
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the aspirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil-for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their house-and these shall be cast out into couter darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
Evil works will cause us to be cast off because they remained carnal and were not converted.
D&C 59:23
23 But learn that he who doeth the works of arighteousness shall receive his breward, even cpeace in this world, and deternal life in the world to come.
Our reward for righteous works will be peace in this world and eternal life (life with God) in the world to come.
Alma chapter 24 verse 11 as well gives a great insight into what "all we can do" is intended to more specifically mean across the Book of Mormon.
Boy I'm glad you found some great information to rationalize your position and you did a great job at the video. I'll be making a similar one on this topic soon as well. There's a bit of an easier answer than changing it to "despite" in my opinion. If you read Alma the lamanite King says "it was all we could do to repent before the Lord" so what does "all we can do" mean? It means to repent. So how it should be interpreted is "we're saved by grace after our repentance"
I think this is more accurate than the way I understood David's point. Love his work but this one seemed a little forgetful of our side of the covenant. Maybe I'm misinterpreting him though.
Nephi also says this in 2 Nephi 31:19:
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
"Relying wholly on the merits of Him who is mighty to save".
Interesting info. Never heard this before. Makes sense. Thanks!!! My personal experience supports this.
I've thought before this could be fixed and correctly interpreted by adding just one word, "... even after all we can do".
This is perfect! If the Book of Mormon had actually meant we need to do works before receiving Christ's grace, we would find other verses of scripture that would further support it which we don't. Excellent video!
Yep, just the opposite in fact - the rest of that very chapter, and King Benjamin's speech, and many more, ignored by those who focus on that verse.
Shortly after the "after all we can do" verse is a list of woks: "speak of Christ, preach of Christ, prophesying of Christ" not so they could be saved by doing so, but so their children would know what source to turn to for a remission of their sins.
Its so crazy how haters will so quickly try to throw out an entire religion and cry "false prophet!" because of a single word or phrase in a text that they haven't read, yet it never crosses their mind that they might be the ones misunderstanding! (Looking at you, "Land of Jerusalem"). When I read other religions' texts that I disagree with, I focus on where I disagree theologically, not nitpick the grammar of ancient or medieval idioms.
"For when we have carried out all our part, the deficiency caused by human weakness will be filled up by God who cooperates for good in all things with those who love Him, and whose future growth has been foreseen according to His unerring knowledge." Origen
I really like to reference Alma 24:11 to this and emphasize CAN. What CAN we do? Faith, repentance, baptism, endure to the end.
@@james8996
Incorrect. Bethlehem is in the land of Jerusalem. It is a two hour walk from Jerusalem proper. People from that time and before referred to it as being in the land of Jerusalem. Alma is a true prophet.
The best way to understand grace is to have it given to you directly from God when you are sanctified and cleansed from your sins when you've repented, or when you are filled with hope and peace at a time when all things in your life tell you that you should not be feeling hope and peace, but you are still yearning for it from God. You will simultaneously know that you did nothing to deserve it and also that had you not shown your desire for it through your actions (repentance, prayer, yearning) you would not have been ready to receive it. The verse in 2 Nephi 25 : 23 will then be much better understood, and you will know It is therefore fully a gift of love from God.
Beautiful! Thanks so much for making this video. I was going over this verse with my sister just a couple weeks ago and was still confused. This filled in the gap. Great work!
So glad it helped. Thanks for watching!
As a Christian, this is refreshing to hear an LDS member share that we are saved only by His grace (through faith in Christ) and not by any works we do. This lines up with what the Bible says in Eph. 2:8-9. I guess my question is I have heard other LDS members share that one must be baptized by someone with proper LDS priesthood authority in order to be saved. So, does someone have any advice how these two views are reconciled?
Also, it was neat to see the examples he used of how ‘after all we can do’ could really mean ‘despite all we can do’. Is this the consensus view of the LDS church too? If so, it seems like this is something the LDS church officials should make clear as it relates to the core of the gospel message.
1st, I appreciate your respectful way of commenting … (when I’ve tried to explain to other Christians that we don’t believe we’re saved by works, their response has always been rude & adamantly telling me I just don’t know what I’m talking abt - that they know what my church believes better than I do. So your comment and questions are totally refreshing!
I’ve been a member 40 yrs and never been taught anything but saved by grace from the leaders. If you listen to them regularly, that’s the message. We do believe in a 2nd part of grace tho … that Gods grace has the pwr to not only save us, but it also has the pwr to change us. If you’ve ever felt the Spirit come into your heart and fill it w/ love for someone who is hard to love, or to change your unforgiving emotions to pure love & forgiveness toward someone who seriously abused you, you’ll know what I’m talking abt. This is part of the process of being born again - it’s a literal changing of our fallen carnal nature to a more Christlike nature that increases our capacity to love as Jesus loves, & to overcome other challenges in our lives that we can’t overcome w/out drawing on God’s pwr.
I know Christians who use “saved by grace” as an excuse to continue in sin - embezzling money, having a relationship w/ a married woman etc, while claiming it’s not a conflict w/ their beliefs. They’re missing out on the joy of the gospel as well as missing out on experiencing God’s pwr to change them.
Baptism doesn’t “save us,” but it brings us into a covenant relationship w/ God.
Baptism by immersion is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Savior. In a similar way, it represents the end of our old life of sin and a commitment to live a new life as a disciple of Christ. The Savior taught that baptism is a rebirth. When we are baptized we begin the process of being born again and become spiritual sons and daughters of Christ.
Furthermore, Baptism is a covenant. covenants are like contracts btwn us & God… they create a special binding relationship w/ Him. He promises to bless us, & we promise to obey Him. As we strive to be obedient, we come to realize our total need & dependence on Him… it’s only thru striving to obey that we truly learn that we can’t do it on our own, & how desperately we need Him. As we seek His help, we experience His pwr & miracles in our lives. As we experience miracles, our faith increases, & our joy & sense of the presence of the Holy Ghost increases.
Baptism is a Biblical principle. While some Protestants have recently started to dismiss baptism as a necessary ordinance, many Protestants still follow the pattern of baptizing.
What does Grace mean from an LDS perspective? And, how does this interpretation of 2nd Nephi 25:23, align with the 3rd AoF?
3rd Article of Faith: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
If 2nd Nephi has been historically misunderstood, perhaps the church should modify the passage and fix the issue to avoid the apparent contradictions. This would surely help to alleviate the argument used by critics of the LDS church who claim the church has a works based righteousness...
There is a similar passage in the Bible Eph. 2:8-10, which may be the perfect text to use to model the revised version of 2nd Nephi:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
The only way to express our faith in Christ, is in our actions every day. Words alone are empty and hollow.
Thank you for providing this research. In reviewing the quotes, I saw that your page reference in "A Peep at the Pilgrims in Sixteen Hundred Thirty Six" was page 35. I found the quote on page 106 instead.
Thanks for this. There are aa few different editions published by Google Books that can be viewed online. We probably accidentally mixed and matched with two editions or something like that.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Don't try and save yourself's Christ has already done that for you. May God Bless You
The New Testament says "we're saved by grace, through faith". I interpret that to mean the same as "we're saved by grace after all we can do".
And “faith” is the moving force for all action, whether planting a seed expecting it to grow or putting 1 foot in front of another expecting to walk, to acting on the will of God. Faith is an action word.
Another fantastic and incredibly researched video. You guys are great.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Do his will!
As an evangelical outsider, I appreciate the video in that it explains 2 Nephi 25:23 in a way that appears to make sense. I only looked at the context of one of the contemporaneous literature examples but the phrase does seem to mean what’s being suggested. However, if I understand LDS doctrine correctly, it really doesn’t change anything regarding your soteriology (or evangelical heartburn over it 😉).
It would appear to me that the church leaders and everyone else who takes “after all we can do” at modern face value are thinking in terms of exaltation, whereas those who take it as explained in this video are thinking in terms of the concept of unconditional salvation regarding universal resurrection.
If I’m correct in this, then the evangelical problem with LDS doctrine remains the same: if I want to spend eternity in the presence of Almighty God, such salvation will only come “after all I can do,” correct? For example, “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded” (Joseph Smith); “It will require maximum effort for us to bring ourselves within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved” (Marion Romney); “His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments” (Harold Lee), etc. The only change seems to be that 2 Nephi 25:23 is removed from the discussion.
So we all get saved through just believing in Jesus but we need to do good works to get to the celestial kingdom. Correct?
Also people always take works as if you have to be perfect... To me works is keeping God's commandments. Love God! Love our neighbors. I do that. I'm on a good track. Once again the Bible clearly says faith without works is dead. So what is James talking about? If you have faith in God and you don't show it by being nice to others or keeping God's commandments, do you really have faith?
According to the Bible none are good. No not one. See Romans 3:10.
@@Eagle_Powers That is not what Jesus said though. Only Protestants. The Bible says You are children of God.
@@suem6004 no the Bible does not say you are automatically a child of God. You must be adopted as a child of God.
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (John 1:12, ESV)
Why would the Bible say they are given the right to BECOME children of God if all people already are children of God?
@@suem6004 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (Psalms 14:2, ESV)
I think grace vs works is a false dichotomy. That's made pretty clear in the scriptures. Never does Christ say that he does not require our works. Works aren't what saves us but they are necessary for our exaltation. We have to put in the work to improve ourselves yet it's Christ's atonement that allows us to keep trying and strengthens us as we try. To quote James, "faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone."
Protestantism though has a warped idea of humans as swamp creatures...not sons and daughters of God. Creatures so vile and disgusting that they can not do or be good in anyway shape or form. Jesus saves us because we humans deserve to be crushed instead but God is merciful if we put ourselves under his heel. Now, you can see how Jesus had to right that doctrinal perversion of protestants. The protestants applied their teachings to infants as well. Infants are born filthy and depraved. So infants go to hell. Goodness, thank you Jesus for kicking that wicked doctrine out and instead restored your true gospel.
Grace is God's willingness and ability to do for mankind what we cannot do for ourselves. Salvation is only through grace seeing that we lack the capacity to provide it for ourselves.
Works don't save. A lack of works condemns. Grace only saves the willing. Grace only saves those who desire it. After all you can do
I believe that before we can understand this passage we need to understand Nephi and his time period. He is of the house of Israel living 600 years before Christ under the law of Moses.
The rest of the chapter after that is all about the law of Moses.
Vs 24 we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ,
Vs 25 wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ
Vs 27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ,
Vs 28 the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law
Vs 30 inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
Therefore it is my interpretation that Nephi is saying he and his posterity are saved by Grace after the law of Moses. (The law of Moses is all Nephi can do). He recognizes he is saved by Grace not the law of Moses.
I always thought it was; Qualifying for His mercy, over being subject to His justice.
Amen Thank you God bless ✝️❤️
Love, love, love, love, love!!!
Grace v. Works is a false dichotomy in my mind. I believe it’s both. We are absolutely saved by Christ’s atonement, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t expected to do anything. Christ paid the price of salvation and now we are in debt to Him. What does he ask us to do? Keep his commandments and repent when we fall short.
I agree with you. Works-based theology is a disservice. You can experience His Grace in it all. God is the beginning and the end.
Wrong. Justification was never ever a 2 'fer with sanctification. For 1500 years prior to Luther (founder of grace nonsense), Christianity rightly taught that you have to walk the talk. "Keep my commandments". "Do this (eucharist) in remembrance of me." "Go forth unto all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". The Bible never said faith alone. That was added by Luther. All 1500 years prior it said you are saved by faith and works. God does not need more Pharisees who don't walk the talk. Jesus restored his true church in 1830 to repudiate Luther's apostasy on this faith alone mess. We follow Christ and not a crazy, lustful German apostate monk.
Finally, someone is starting to understand Nephi! And if people would just understand that verse in conjunction with 2 Nephi 10:24 and then Ephesians 2:8-9, and then D&C 20:30, and then the JST translation of Romans 3:24, that might put an end to any idea that we are not fully saved by grace. We are not saved by anything we do, although the proof that our faith in Christ is not fake is demonstrated by obedience to Christ as our Lord. True faith in Christ always results in a changed life, but that changed life does not buy us salvation but is instead a result of actually trusting in Christ as our Lord and Savior. Therefore, as the Prophet Nephi says just 2 verses later after the one so often quoted erroneously, "we are made alive in Christ because of our faith", and in that same verse he says, the law has become dead as a doornail unto us. So that's why he says, in verse 26, we talk of Christ, etc, because He is the source our children may look to for a remission of their sins, not anything they do. Yes indeed, as the prophet Nephi also says, "salvation is free".
But what is salvation for the Mormon? What are we saved from? Why did we need the father to begin with?
@@blusheep2 Salvation is deliverance from the power and penalty of sin, from our personal sins as well as our sinful nature. We are justified, forgiven because Christ suffered and died in our place to cleanse us. Christ removes the enmity between us and God and brings us back into a right relationship with God permanently. It is also to be transformed, sanctified, to have our carnal, sinful nature transformed and to be born again. Christ paid the full penalty for all our sins so we could one day be glorified, becoming joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and heirs of all things, which is eternal life. That is what we are saved for. And none of this would have been possible if the Father had not given His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16). We are therefore eternally indebted to God (Mosiah 2:34) and are completely reliant upon His grace (2 Nephi 31:19; Moroni 6:4). Thus, despite all our efforts, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the kind of faith that results in faithfulness to Him until the end (James 2:26; Romans 6:6). There is no other name.
@@TouchstoneAndKeystone This sounds very mainstream Christian to me but it doesn't sound Mormon. Which are you? You quote a lot of the BoM so I assume your Mormon. Is that right?
My confusion with Mormon "salvation" is that what you wrote just begs the question, when you consider Mormon doctrine of our eternal nature and exaltation.
Joseph said that the only difference between us and the father is the degree of knowledge that is possessed. Everything revolves around knowledge. So I don't understand how the father is "delivering" us from anything much less sin. It seems more accurate to say that the father provided us with an environment that allows us to learn about sin so that we can overcome it personally.
If this is a reasonable way to look at it then it only follows that the father isn't really needed for our exaltation. The priesthood doesn't make a lot of sense for our exaltation other then one of many tools that could help us reach it. The gift of the father would be in the world and structure he provided that allows us to reach our exaltation more quickly. He doesn't have the authority to grant us exaltation. He can only nurture us along.
Can you tell me if any of this seems unreasonable to you considering Joseph's teaching on our eternal nature, the father, and our exaltation?
@@blusheep2 There is no such thing as “Mormon salvation”: there is only God’s salvation, which comes through faith in Jesus Christ as described previously. Our ETERNAL nature is what God says it is in the canonized scriptures, such as the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon, and that eternal nature is transformed through Jesus Christ, also explained above. Knowledge is NOT salvation (that’s the heresy of Gnosticism), though it is necessary and life eternal to know God Himself and Jesus Christ who He sent (John 17:3), because, as the Prophet Joseph Smith said, “It is impossible for a [sinful] man to be saved in ignorance [of Christ]” (D&C 131:6; also see 2 Nephi 25:26). So while Adam and Eve lacked knowledge about many things when God first created them, they were pure UNTIL they disobeyed Him. Now, because you and I have all sinned (Rom. 3:23) and are in a sinful world, the Apostle Paul tells us we must “overcome evil with good” (Rom. 12:21), which the Apostle John agrees with (Rev. 12:11). Paul later tells us we can only do that “through Christ which strentheneth [us]” (Phil. 4:13). Thus, we are completely helpless without Christ, and we desperately needed the Father to send Him (and for more than just payment of our sins), which He did. We can no more exalt ourselves than we can save ourselves. Therefore, it is God who saves and exalts us in glory with Him, if we rely wholly on Christ. You see, our doctrine is correctly understood only by staying within the pages of the canonized scriptures, “the iron rod” (1 Nephi 11:25; 2 Timothy 3:15), which God has personally certified. And remember, only Jesus spoke flawlessly, not Peter, Moses, Paul or Joseph Smith. Thus, the only way we can correctly interpret what such leaders meant is WITH the scriptures, NOT in spite of them (Acts 17:11), and WITH the Holy Ghost (2 Pet. 1:20-21), who never contradicts them (2 Tim. 2:13; Jacob 4:13; 1 Cor. 14:33).
@@TouchstoneAndKeystone Well there is a difference if Mormon theology teaches something different then mainstream Christianity. I'm trying to understand if it does.
I am aware of what scripture teaches about salvation. I am only confused by what Mormons teach as salvation. In mainstream Christianity, we are nothing. We are creatures of the almighty first cause of all things. Mormomism teaches we are all of the same substance with the only difference being that the father has more knowledge than us and therefore more power. The father isn't responsible for our existence in Mormonism while He is, in mainstream Christianity. When I say "our existence" I don't mean our existence on earth. I'm talking about our ontology.
With this understanding, I'm having a hard time identifying what salvation even means for a Mormon. Why all the fuss about salvation? I don't understand. Your eternal regardless of the father's work in your life. IF the father didn't exist then you still would and still could learn and become exalted. Do you see why I'm confused? In mainstream Christianity, we are saved from our sinful nature and by the work of the cross we gain eternal life through Jesus. A Mormon already believes they have eternal life, regardless of what Christ did because they are already eternal entities. So what are we saved from? How does the father's forgiveness play into our exaltation if exaltation is about knowledge and nothing else as Joseph Smith claimed? Are you suggesting that what he taught was wrong because it doesn't conform to scripture or are you saying something else?
I'm trying to dig deep here because I don't want to strawman the Mormon position, but the work of Christ and exaltation theology don't seem to me to be consistent. One seems arbitrary.
Dave, I wish to rave: you guys have great graphics! And video can be rated as sophisticated. Yet I wonder about the blunder of intellectualizing a beautifully simple idea. Elder Uchtdorf gives a caution; maybe his stuff is good enough. Some Latter-day Saints wish to niggle; we don’t have to follow their lead.
The answer is in the Book of Mormon: "all we can do is REPENT" - ALMA 24 verse 11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to atake them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.
There is a phrase used in Christianity that I don’t think is used a lot in this discussion and it’s “Now, Not Yet.” And, I’m not sure if i’m using this correctly, but it’s kind of, We are both “Now” saved by Christ, because he has already payed the price for sin and broke the bands of death, but we have “Not yet” come into his glory or have been removed from mortal trials or temptations. We have both been delivered and still fighting. You are both saved by Christ and still need to call upon him and Choose him every day
THANK YOU! WONDERFUL VIDEO!
Great explanation and yes we are saved by his grace inspite all we can do. But that does not mean we don't have to do anything. We do have to do our best every day to do his will and exercise or faith making and keeping convenient. There are those who define that as work salvation. Has Jesus Christ covered us by his atonement yes and he has set the reqirements and his grace is saficant for those that strive to be perfected in him.
"For those that strive to be perfected in him." Though the bible clearly states in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There's NO such thing as a perfect person.
What did Jesus say to the criminal on the cross after he asked Jesus to remember him. He said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." What did that man do to deserve his grace? All he did was believe.
Makes us as members really have to examine whether or not we are renegotiating the text of the Book of Mormon just like most Christians today renegotiate the words of the Bible.
It is a silly and contentious argument against a perfectly wholesome doctrine. One cannot follow Jesus Christ without making the effort to do so. And so, the argument is due to their not following Jesus Christ.
I would push and say that you aren’t making the effort. It’s God miraculous work that regenerates someones spirit to cause them to follow him. It isn’t you at all.
@@hollon1697 I see your point. But everyone has free choice. So no, it isn't compulsion at all. Otherwise everyone would follow Jesus Christ. Every part of the gospel is a command regarding our conduct and behavior. And that is "works". "Enter ye in, choose ye this day, be not hearers but doers"
Those who on this point condemn the LDS Church are not followers of Jesus Christ. They are petty instigators, who don't even understand what they pretend to know.
Martin Luther who invented the contention against all Christian theology on this topic comes from a view that humans are disgusting swamp creatures and God should crush us. By some miracle he does not. Humans are so disgusting that they always choose the wrong unless the fear of God hangs over their head. So, evangelicals give up with any effort to follow Christ’s admonition to keep his commandments. Therefore humans are going to continue to sin ‘and sin boldly’ so said Luther so eat, drink and edit the bible to alter scripture to have saved by faith ALONE. The last word was added. LDS follow Catholicism, and Orthodoxy on this topic. The protestants are the odd balls.
3:42 this point is really funny because that's exactly how the CES Letter is sold. The site says they will send a free book to you as long as you made a minimum donation of $15. (It's technically something like $14.99 or something)
I will raise you this verse:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved." --2 Nephi 10:24
To be fair, Mormon theology is not the same as what Martin Luther taught, and what is taught by many today. There are no works that can atone for sin. We need the atonement to gain salvation from sin, so the only possible way we can gain salvation is by the grace of God. And yet God will not save everyone. Only those that have real Faith in Christ can gain salvation from sin. But is faith just believing? The lukewarm and devils "believe" so "faith" has to be more than just believing. James, who was taught by Jesus himself, says: "You see that a person is ***justified by works*** and NOT by faith ALONE." --James 2:24 NASB
Martin Luther, the apostate, taught a corrupt grace salvation. Grace alone was never in the Bible. Luther added "alone' when he edited the Bible. So, all grace alone is from 1517 onwards and among protestants. LDS align with Catholicism and Orthodoxy of justification is separate from sanctification. So, you have 3 against 1 in terms of grace alone saves. All others read the Bible that explicitly states the need to walk the talk. Ie keep the commandments, keep the sacraments that Jesus instituted: baptism, marriage, eucharist. LDS need to distance ourselves from the protestant apostasy. No need to try to make them our friends doctrinally. Martin Luther famously said: "go forth and sin but sin boldly... even should you fornicate or murder 1000s of times a day... only believe". That is cheap grace Luther invented to rid his own lustful guilt. Well, as an innate depraved human there will never be a chance for me not to sin, so the heck with it.... sin all you want... 'cause grace alone saves. This is the context of the restoration. Jesus Christ labeled all that as an abomination. He restored his true gospel which aligns with 1500 years of previous Christianity prior to Luther. Justification (salvation) and sanctification are not a 'one and done' thing. Not a "two 'fer"
Lovely video. Thanks for expounding on this. ❤
😊
great work as always, David!
Thanks Troy!
If we grant that, does that mean I can be fully exalted through belief in Christ alone?
Thirty years ago, the interpretation you present in this video (after=despite) would have been considered highly controversial if not heretical. I was chastised by church leaders for advancing this view, which would need no explanation now if the LDS apostles had for decades bothered to make it clear in conference. But they did not.
Excellent work as always
Thank you!
What about this If-Then statement in the Book of Mormon?
Moroni 10:32
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God
I don't understand why it would be problematic the other way around. Even if we read, "we are saved by grace AFTER all we can do", we are saved only after we do everything we can to save ourselves. We only receive grace once we have done everything we can do to repent and follow Jesus. This doesn't mean that we are saved BY our works, it means we are saved BY grace. Our works cannot save us because they are not sufficient to cleanse us from sin and make us perfect. Only the grace of Christ can do that. We are only granted grace after sufficient effort to follow Christ. We will not be saved by praising Jesus and then continuing to live in sin.
May I make a suggestion, I believe 2 25:23 is absolutely correct translation. The "inspite of all we can do" is nice but wrong. Don't let the evangelicals tell you otherwise. 2 ne 25:23 reads as it should. If you continue reading the rest of the verses, it explains in great detail exactly what is meant by "after all you can do." It is found in verses 29-30. Just reading verse 23 is not enough. You have to read the rest of the chapter. This is one of the faults of evangelicals they stop and get hung up on one scripture and ignore what else is said.
Christ clearly taught the "after all you can do." If we don't have faith, believe in christ repent and get baptized (the ordinances mentioned in verse 29-30) christ grace can not save us. Also, loving god as it says with all your might, mind, and strength requires doing!! Remember, christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. So, yes, we must do the after all we can do's.
Great video by the way!!
Awesome video!!!
Love this research :)
Well we need to keep our covenants which require some effort or work. I guess it is all in the definition of "work"... no we are not saving ourselves. We are keeping our covenants. The Savior will be the one who saves us.
Do you have a video where you define grace and salvation?
Hi Valerie. As you might have seen, we reference a previous video about 5 seconds into this episode that focuses more on the discussion of grace vs. works. I hope you'll check it out, as it helps to further address your question.
The simplest example is the essence of gift giving…100% of the gift is His. Receiving the gift is not black and white.
As kids we open the box and play with the box not understanding the value and offering of a gift we were to Receive. “After All we can do” means we still have covenants and ordinances to fully receive the gift and through his grace we have ample opportunity to do so but in the end will have to be the one to receive the gift
I look at "after" as if you have to try to get saved... The Bible teaches it clearly. If you love me keep my commandments so you keeping commandments, You're trying to show your love to the savior. Or even better you're trying to be like Jesus That is what I look at after... A lot of non-members look at it as that you have to run a mile in 4 minutes to make it into heaven. There wouldn't be a lot of people in heaven if that was the case.
Also, I don't think I've ever seen a murderous or rapist man want to be saved by Jesus without that change of heart and without trying to come closer to God. No one's going to want the grace of Christ in their life if they don't believe and no one that believes won't try to keep God's commandments
Love your channel it highlights a different biblical perspective, some of which I agree with, however, I have a few questions. How do you reconcile much of the contradictions Mormon teachings have when evaluated in light of the Torah and the Gospels, for-instance,
1. Mormons teach that God the Father was once human which means he was born as opposed to being eternally uncreated, which is contradictory to the Torah and the gospels
2. Mormon teaching also expounds idea that we as believers can achieve godhood.
Being born is not mutually exclusive with being eternally uncreated. Why would you think it was?
If God was once a mortal being it is in no way inconsistent with the fact that He now has all power and all knowledge and possesses every virtue, grace, and godly attribute that the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants have said God has. Irenaeus, a highly respected and influential early church father, stated "How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For thou dost not make God, but God thee" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 4:523, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:523-524) Here Irenaeus, an early church father, argues that how can we become a god, if we were not once a man. Using this same line of argument, how could God become a God, if He was not a man once? John 5:19 says The Son can’t do anything that He hasn’t seen the Father do. Would that mean that God lived as a spirit in a pre-mortal life, was born and received a body, died, and was resurrected and Jesus imitated what the father did?
If God was once a mortal being then we still believe He has always existed. D&C 93:29 “Man was also in the beginning with God. *Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.”*
Exaltation is stated in the bible and is one of the things God has promised us. We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (Psalms 82:6, Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:7). We have been granted the opportunity to be exalted (1 Peter 5:6) and be able to sit on the throne of God just like Jesus Christ through Jesus Christ (Revelations 3:21, Revelations 21:7). What God wants is for us to be perfect like him (Matthew 5:48). God is called the Father for a reason and as every (good) parent wants is for their children to be like them. Jesus Christ showed us the way to becoming a god. To say otherwise limits what God has promised us.
Exaltation was taught by many of the old Christians like St Irenaeus "Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods?” and St Clements of Alexandria “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods and gods are men." Even St Augustine "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God, for he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
Because a lot of people will say this, the first lie wasn’t “thou shall be as Gods, knowing good from evil” but “Thou shalt surely not die”. We know this because God in Genesis 3:22 says “Then the Lord God said, “See, *the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil,* and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”
@@allieooop3923 "They were teaching deification consistent with the Trinity." What does how the trinity is viewed have to do with anything I said?
Honestly I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. The 2 quotes you provided don't share anything about the trinity, just that God is an incorporeal being. Though, I am not arguing they didn't believe in the pagan and unbiblical view of God because that false belief was starting to become popular around their time period. While false beliefs were coming into the gospel that didn't happen over night and was a slow process.
According to the pagan view of the trinity, Jesus Christ is God and is of one essence with Him. St Clements of Alexandria said "the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.", the Word of God being Jesus Christ. So if Jesus Christ, who according to the pagan view already is God, showed us how to become a God then how does that not mean what I am saying?
Eternal life and Exaltation are not the same thing. You can have Eternal life and not be exalted.
@@brettmajeske3525 yes it is, if you were born it means you didn't always exist, but rather you came into existence at some point in time, which means you were created, that is the exact opposite of being eternally uncreated, how is that not contradictory? Furthernore the torah and the gospels teach that God was not born but he was always uncreated and eternal, this is in contradiction with Mormon teaching
@@dylanwilliams2202 I understand what you're saying but you haven't addressed my question. Mormon teaching says God was once born, if you were born it means you didn't always exist, but rather you came into existence at some point in time, which means you were created, that is the exact opposite of what the Torah and the gospels teach, they teach that God was never mortal, but rather to that he has always existed and was not created or born.
Of course that is what this passage means. After all (regardless of what we can do), it is by Christ's grace that we are saved. In the crossing of the Red Sea, the children of Israel didn't move one drop of water, yet they passed through on dry ground. They were simply required to use the escape route provided so mercifully.
@@joeoleary9010 The first time any Church leader is recorded as explicitly having a different interpretation is in the 1970s, and the push back against it starts in the 1990s. Since far more leaders, both before and after this period agree with the way David explains it, it is actually the more orthodox explanation. Did you bother checking out the resources provided? This is not just David making things ups.
The church leaders are not infallible. To quote Elder Uchtdorf, "Mistakers were made."
Why do we isolate scripture? God's telling us something with
many scriptures together. It should be read as the chapter. He reveals to those who are wanting to worship him in spirit and in truth. When we isolate scripture, we can easily use man's interpretations. Like end time prophesy where people will pull from Isaiah, Jeremiah, revelation. But they're meant to remain together as a book. Thank you for your website.
Salvation is for all through grace. Exaltation must be earned
Gross!
It was never interpreted that way until recently. Look up the parable of the bicycle or the blood atonement.
The main difference (and or) confusion here, is that the definition of "grace" is being used incorrectly. Everyone who has lived, is now living, and will still live on the Earth are redeemed (or resurrected) by His atonement even if they have lived sinful lives. The "all you can do" part determines largely what our ultimate destination will be....Or in other words, what degree of glory we receive. "Faith without works is dead" is true on a spectrum. We are saved by the atonement and death of Jesus Christ regardless of works....But "works" rather, make specific, our ultimate landing point in the Mansions above.
But even those works can only be effective with Christ's grace and they are only manifestations of greater faith. Achieving various degrees of glory is still about faith and grace.
@@rockartalan ……Agreed. I think we’re both right. This is a concept that can take us around in circles if we over think it. I just hope my faith is sufficient when I’m done with my time here. Have a good brother.
I love the "Grand Budapest Hotel" reference lol
But yes, fantastic video
I've been waiting for this explanation, thank you!
You're welcome!
❤ this!
If my kids asked for ice cream while eating their dinner, and I said that they could have ice cream *after* they finish their veggies, how should my kids interpret what I’m saying?
and yet, we can't just sit back and say "salvation is free. therefore I need do nothing, and can sin all I want, because 'I'm saved'"
I always thought of it as "in addition to" or "beyond."
This verse is also complicated by our use of "Salvation" as a declarative reward somewhere in the future. This kind of arbitrary concept
diminishes the actual power of God's Grace. It still supposes that Grace is an exception to the rule, some kind of stop gap for our inability to
get all the way there. Brandon Peterson says it beautifully, "Mercy doesn't emerge as a function of humans conforming to the divinely willed order--
Indeed, such a mechanical, propitiatory mercy would fail to be mercy at all. Rather, that humans are brought back into this order, and are thus able
to enjoy the happiness meant for them, is the "Result" of God's expiatory action in Jesus Christ".
If we take Salvation as the creative process of changing our souls, it's then easier to see Grace as a free-flowing gift, that is the very fuel that ignites
that change. Salvation is not a reward in the hereafter, it begins herenow, through this synergistic relationship with God, that we call covenant.
I think latter day saint members generally believe it both ways. We emphasize (more recently than in the past) that by grace we are saved, but we also are saved my our ordinances and covenants. If we can't remain temple worthy we won't make it to the highest kingdom of heaven. That sounds a lot like we are saved by grace After all we can do, not despite. So I'm not sure we have made up our mind which side of this fence we are on yet.
I think the difference is we don’t believe “being saved” is a 1 time event… it’s a process as we’re born again, and again, and again… as our faith, testimonies & love of the Lord increases as we strive to live our covenants.
Very awesome video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
love it. herd that idea years ago but they no evidence. thank you.
Good job!
The past Mormon general authorities and a lot of the Mormon prophets and lay church members definitely did interpret 2 Nephi 25:23 to means you don’t get grace until after you’ve done all you can do. Look at the book the miracle of forgiveness by Spencer w kimball, he definitely interpreted it that way. It’s confusing Messages in the Mormon church. One guy is saying this and later another guy is saying that which is it?
The Latter day Saint definition for grace is Help and mercy from God, not unmerited favor. Who has the authority to define grace, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Almost all Christians, including most in the church do not understand Paul . Paul's entire mission, his every letter is to teach that the Law of Moses cannot save anyone, even the ten commandments, because they only require an outward effort to keep them. All of Christ's teachings require a person to change from their inner man, their spirit to keep them. To love even your enemies, to not even lust. 2 Cor. 3:7
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
Every time Paul says works cannot save you always add the works of the law of Moses cannot save you. That is what Paul means.
Paul was not writing his letters to you, he was writing his letters to members who were mostly Gentiles influenced by members who were Jews. Totally different context than what most people think. Also, Paul mostly corrected the New Testament saints in his letters, but did not cover what they were doing right, except in a few instances, so we cannot know what the New testament Christians were teaching at Sunday school without God telling us. God told us in the D&C through Joseph Smith,.
EVEN - EVEN EVEN: Input the word EVEN Prior to after and the meaning changes to what Nephi meant and would render a better translation for today's standards. Even after all we can do...
That isn't a translation then. Its a paraphrase. Its adding a word to the text that doesn't belong. Its better to just give the cultural context though that brings up other problems.
You explain it very well. But this is not what Mormons believe. If Mormons truly believe the grace of Jesus Christ, then they should abandon the teachings of the Mormon prophets because this is not what they taught. And the foundation of Mormon church is based on a different Jesus Christ and different gospel of the Bible.
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The quote at 4:42 requires a considerably intelligent mind and probably a dictionary to really "get". I had to look up 3 or 4 words in my dictionary to understand it in its intended meaning. I highly recommend pursuing the full understanding of it!
@@joeoleary9010 I meant the meaning of the quote. We don't need something exclusively from Joseph Smith to know absolutely about the Book of Mormon. That ideal is fundamentally contractive of the purpose of written histories and teachings (that the Book of Mormon is); and once I understood the words I hadn't heard before that this person used, I reread the quote so I grasped what the the person was trying to say instead of trying to understand something I actually had no idea about. That process is what I was and am encouraging others to do.
I don't cherry pick multiples meanings of words to twist the intents of what people say. Are you so confident about what it means to cherry pick meanings of words because it's something you do?
Dan Mclellan doesn't even believe basic Christian doctrines. He is a progressive. Also, why didn't God just use the word despite? Why did he us the word after? the BOM is supposed to be a perfect translation. But now we are changing God's perfect words because Latter Day Saints want to appear more Christian. David even showed us in the beginning that in 1970 they were teaching that they were saved by works.
What is really 'all we can do?' Accept the saviors atoning sacrifice because of ourselves the only thing we are worthy of is death and hell. Make sense?
Gee,.. Nephi was speaking to ancient Hebrews around 600 years before the birth of Christ. No "Saving Grace of Jesus" had yet been offered to the world. In fact Nephi and his contemporaries were living according to the Law of Moses. And FYI, there are over 600 rules, regulations and observances, associated with Mosaic Law.
Nephi's statement therefore, are entirely consistent with his own time and space. (Do you think Joseph Smith at twenty-two, was thinking about this when he concocted the Book of Mormon?)
Sure the scripture is applicable to us as well, but Nephi was speaking specifically to his family and friends. Nephi goes on to explain his knowledge of the Savior and what will come to pass (600 years in his future.) But being "saved by grace" was never an Old Testament topic.
Technically Grace Alone was an invention by Luther in 1517 when he added the word ‘alone’ after Faith. No such thing as grace alone until then.
@@suem6004 I didn't know that but evangelicals are fond of quoting several New Testament scriptures, while the scripture of James who says that "faith without works is dead" is being misinterpreted.
Protestants believe Paul is talking about all works cannot save you, when he is really teaching that the works of the law of Moses cannot save you. He spent his entire Christian ministry countering the teachings bu some Jews who had become Christians that all of the law is fulfilled in Christ. Christ's commandments require us to change from our spirit to obey Him, whereas non of the law of Moses requires us to change from our spirit to obey it. For example, a person may never commit adultery, may never murder, and by so doing have kept those parts of thevlaw perfectly, but they are not saved, because, as Paul states, even though he kept the law blameless, which he said twice, he was full of spirit sins, lust, jealousy, hate, envey.. That is why he glories in the law of the inward man.
2 cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious
Paul is right, the law of Moses cannot save, meaning deliver you from sin, but to not lust, and to not hat can. When you are shed of pride, when you love God and all people, when you do not lust you are delivered , saved, from sin through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and by His grace, which means help and mercy from God. Help and mercy for what to change. Definitely works are nessesary for salvation. When you decide you are going g to follow Christ, you will notice He will send people your way to help. A father with his young child at the grocery store that dies not have enough money to buy his newborn child diapers, or formula. If you are able, and you do not do the works of helping g him, are you saved?
One interpretation I heard was Lehi and company were under the law of Moses. As such there were certain rituals they needed to follow to be saved. Thus the statement "after all we can do".
Unless you posit that the Christian doctrine of free grace is, to a degree, nonsensical. Rereading the text examples shown it could read as "by grace ye are save, AS YOU DO all that you can do." The Book of Mormon does not include the word "free" or infer it in any of its descriptions of grace. The unprofitable servant in Mosiah 2 was still asked to be a servant. It would be nonsensical to call his salvation free.
Joseph Spencer had much to say about this in his vol 1 anatomy Book of Mormon theology
It amazes me how people must insist to give so much grief over one word in the Book of Mormon when both "works based salvation" people and "faith alone salvation" people cherry pick their own interpretations of entire chapters of what the Bible says about both. Y'all have 0 authority to decide how we interpret our own scripture when your own beliefs are built on such a sandy scriptural foundation.
I rhis we need to let scripture interpret scripture. Aft we all we can do means, we do our part to be righteous to obtain the worthiness to receive salvation and then grace makes up the difference.
A quote I have come to appreciate, shared by a general authority, once had this to say about Christ's grace - "Jesus doesn’t make up the difference. Jesus makes all the difference. Grace is not about filling gaps. It is about filling us."
Check out "after all" in the following examples:
Alma 10:4-5
And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry. Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power.
Mosiah 3:8-9
And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
I like to think of it in the terms of the first great commandment it's simplist
Love god with all your soul...
Enough said....
If you remember Abraham he was commanded to sacrifice Isaac his only son. He showed god he was willing to give his son to God. This was accounted into him for rightousness.
Our rightous works justify us. In this are ye justified. Is a question of the ages. Is what you ate doing justified. Even as the angels are justified.
Mormonism does many external things to try to have access heaven, such as temple work, temple ceremonies, eternal marriage, Priesthood, word of wisdom, etc. External religious acts never give you access to the kingdom of God. God gave us a free gift, it is called grace, which involves righteousness, once we are saved, we all need to work internally to increase. But we do not have to do a play to get to heaven. You cannot make grace happen, it is like a fruit on a tree that naturally ripens on the vine. Those who believe in the true Jesus of the bible will ripen by the vine of God. John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me, has eternal life." Jesus is significant. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not according to works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8.
You are misunderstanding what Latter-day Saints understand saved to be. Being saved is being given the path to eternal life. We are saved from the miserable and depraved condition that results from not knowing the path. That path can be called eternal life. But what is eternal life? It is living a Christ like life or being Christ like. Since actual Christ like behavior is perfection, it is a process of becoming. A sincere follower of Christ will welcome any tool God provides to assistance in the process following better, as we struggle in our fallen state to be more like Him. What you call "external religious acts" are nothing more than heavenly tools that are God's gifts to us to help us on this journey of a disciple of Christ. These external acts are not for the purpose of gaining brownie points that add up to a magical sum that equals going to heaven. Going to heaven is not the prize to be won, but becoming more like Christ is. And that is a process that continues beyond this life.
"Mormonism does many external things to try to have access heaven, such as temple work, temple ceremonies, eternal marriage, Priesthood, word of wisdom" That is not true. All of this is for exaltation or to help our ancestors to receive Salvation (baptism for the dead) and exaltation (everything else). Baptism is the only thing required to get into the Celestial Kingdom according to many verses in the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. When talking about who gets in to the Celestial Kingdom, it is said in D&C 76:51-52 "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;"
According to the Key words bible, the works in Ephesians 2:8-9 was meaning the law of Moses. Meaning that this should be read as "Not of the law of Moses, lest any man should boast". Key words Bible 2041. More specifically "Works of the law, meaning works required or comfortable to the Mosaic moral law and required by this law". Meaning the sacrifice or prerequisite required by the moral law to gain access to forgiveness is what is being talked about in Ephesians 2:8-9. From Leviticus chapters 4-7, when you broke the Mosaic moral law you had to work or do a prerequisite by sacrificing animals to gain God’s forgiveness.
Paul rejects the idea of God’s grace having any prerequisite in Ephesians 2:8-9, saying God's grace or forgiveness has no requirements or no sacrifice you have to do to get. Then in Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Or in a simple way, Jesus Christ saved us freely through his death and now we have to walk in the good works that God created for us so their grace may affect our lives more abundantly.
Jesus Christ dying on the cross is what allows us to be forgiven of our sins and is the gateway for us to be resurrected and have eternal life. Without that, no matter what we do, we wouldn't be able to save ourselves from our sins without the atonement. We believe that we are saved by grace through faith but that faith isn't just professed belief and is also expressed in our behavior and/or works (Matthew 7:21-23, James 2:14-26, Titus 1:16, Isaiah 29:13). Or put simply, works are outward manifestations of faith in Christ that allows God’s and Jesus Christ’s grace to increase and affect our lives more abundantly (Ephesians 2:10). However those works are not what save us, it is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paved the path to God with his blood when he was crucified and you have to follow the path that was laid out for us to walk in to get to God. The path we must walk to live with God again that the Bible (and Book of Mormon) has said to do is to 1st have faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:36, John 6:29) 2nd keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 11:28, John 14:15, John 14:21, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17) and not to purposefully sin and/or repent when you have made a sinned (Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30, 1 John 1:9), 3rd make and keep the ordinances that God has asked of us like baptism (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-10, Titus 3:5), 4th to serve others and love (Matthew 20:28, John 13:34-35, Galatians 5:13-14, 1 Peter 4:10-11) and 5th faithfully endure to the end (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 2:26). That path is God’s and Jesus Christ's grace and walking on the path that was paved for us by Christ is our faith and continuing being on that path will allow their grace to increase in your life. It is clearly defined but also straight and narrow and you can slip off the path. The good thing is you can always return to the path.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the bible better than any other denomination. Join God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and join their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you.
@@joeoleary9010 Hey, I encourage you to study the Bible at least once.
Matthew 19:16-17 " Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is one who is good. *If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”*
John 14:21 *"They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me,* and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”
Hebrews 5:8-9 "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, 9 and having been made perfect, *he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"*
1 John 5:2-3 *"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.* 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome"
Mark 16:16 *"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved,* but the one who does not believe will be condemned."
Acts 22:16 "And now why do you delay? *Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."*
Romans 6:3-10 "Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 *Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.*
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, so we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus"
@@rockartalan Careful where you get your so-called heavenly tools, Satan disguised himself as an angel. And you are right, our goal is to be more like Christ, but we cannot get to Christ or be like Him if we do not follow His doctrine.
@@dylanwilliams2202 You must first have the correct Jesus, Jesus is not created, He always was and always is. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last. Rev 1:8.