Did Joseph Smith lie about priesthood restoration? | Ep. 210
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- Latter-day Saints believe that the lower, or Aaronic, priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by the resurrected John the Baptist on May 15, 1829. The higher, or Melchizedek, priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery soon after that by the ancient apostles Peter, James, and John. Many critics, on the other hand, believe Joseph made these angelic experiences up in order to lend credibility to his claims of authority. So… what’s the deal? Let’s talk about it.
Video transcript: saintsunscript...
- “Priesthood Restoration Documents,” by Brian Q. Cannon (BYU Studies): tinyurl.com/4d...
- “Priesthood Restoration,” via the Joseph Smith Papers: tinyurl.com/4v...
- “Restoration of the Priesthood,” via the Church’s website: tinyurl.com/2v...
- “Oliver Cowdery as Second Witness of Priesthood Restoration,” by Steven C. Harper (BYU RSC): tinyurl.com/bd...
- Podcast recommendation: “The Priesthood Restored: A Joseph Smith Papers Podcast,” produced by the Church (specifically, check out episodes 2 & 3): tinyurl.com/yc...
- Recommended reading: “A Reason for Faith,” by Laura Harris Hales (editor), specifically chapter 6, “The Restoration of the Priesthood,” by Ronald O. Barney.
- “Minutes, circa 3-4 June 1831,” via Joseph Smith Papers: tinyurl.com/py...
- “The CES Letter, a Closer Look: Priesthood Restoration Intro Quote,” tinyurl.com/37...
- “LDS Truth Claims 33: Criticism from 1st Vision and Priesthood Restoration” via LDS Truth Claims on RUclips: tinyurl.com/4b...
- “Defending the Authenticity of Priesthood Restoration,” via Latter-day Saint Q & A on RUclips: tinyurl.com/yc...
- Doctrine and Covenants Section 13: tinyurl.com/38...
- Doctrine and Covenants Section 27: tinyurl.com/27...
- Doctrine and Covenants Section 128: tinyurl.com/yc...
Notes:
- Regarding the Lyman Wight ordination issue, it may also be worth mentioning that there is precedent for other ordinances also being performed twice. For example, many Latter-day Saints were baptized more than once. Was it necessary? Maybe not, but it was meaningful to them. Perhaps Lyman’s ordination of Joseph was unnecessary, but worked as a way of more formally involving church members in the process. It’s also important to note that the policies, divisions, offices, and responsibilities of the priesthood were not fully hammered out and established at this time (the 1831 conference). The organization of the priesthood was established line upon line, over time. We need to beware of presentism.
- Interestingly, the first detailed description we have of the visit of Peter, James, and John, comes from Oliver (in 1834) - not Joseph.
- In the same document that David Whitmer expresses doubt over the visit of John the Baptist, he also affirms the reality of priesthood authority. He believed priesthood authority was real - there was just some confusion about the details of how the Aaronic priesthood was restored. It’s interesting that he felt this angelic visitation was a “misconception,” though, considering the fact that it was published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, years before David separated from the Church.
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When some of us have spiritual encounters, there will always be others who scoff. The world thinks we're crazy, well we are not of this world. All of us Christians are God's chosen in this dispensation. God Bless the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. God bless all Christians ✝️ 🙏 in the sacred name of Jesus Christ 🙏 Amen.
It’s easy for me to know that the priesthood has been restored. I know it’s here because I have it and I use it. I’ve helped heal the sick by it, and in turn I’ve been healed by it as well. I’ve cast out evil spirits by it. My life has even been protected and spared by it…another story for another time. Anyway, the list goes on. No matter how it got it here, it’s here, alive and well, and in use :)
Phenomenal content, you guys! I'm always amazed by the amount of work you put in to answer those secondary questions and make it so clean and clear and open to further study. Those who want to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's church only need to ask God in the name of Christ if these things are true, and then the spirit will manifest all truth to that individual. I think you guys are truly inspired and are doing much good in the world today in an ever darkening world. Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
Well Our Patriarchal Blessings tells me He Didn't. I've studied both of our Patriarchal Blessings and Even my Wifes Mother in Law read both of ours, and then Asked. "Who is this Man? How does he know both of you so well? This last stake Conference he said that every year for 11 years now as the Patriarch he is Sustained in that Calling and told by people they are True to their Lives. I for one in the moment was
accordingly stunned by a Certain word that I had received by way of The Holy Ghost manifesting itself over and over...and I wasnt a Member *when I first heard that word accompanied by a Burning of the Bosom or knew very little of the Latterday Saints, but James 1:3-4 say that Word, and it wasnt until I understood that was when I stopped hearing that word in blessings from various Priesthood Holders. So yes * I am Convinced as a Witness and Holder of The Melchizedek Priesthood that these things are True. And Blessings I have Given to others have been valuable to those that received them as it has been myself.
Thank you for all the hard work you put into your videos. They truly are making a difference 💖
This is just my speculation. But in the account of the restoration of the aaronic priesthood, when Joseph and Oliver ordain each other, I interpret that as confirming the gift of the Holy Ghost upon each other. In that sense, they receive the AP from John the Baptist, then Baptist and confirm each other under his supervision. Anyone else agree with this interpretation?
Prolly first. Love these videos. Happy Thanksgiving Saints Unscripted!
Good video, im currently compiling a video on this topic and have come to similar conclusions. Might borrow a couple points from ya also.
Interesting how critics argue Oliver and the 3 witnesses sincerely hallucinated when it comes to the angel and plates, because it seems unlikely they were part of a conspiracy and made it up especially after leaving the church but never denying their testimonies and Oliver returning. But Oliver when it comes to the orsination of john the baptist and Peter, James and John they say he and Joseph later made it up.
I find it improbable for Oliver to have returned to the church, been the one to talk about it first in 1834 and write about in private letters to be a co-conspirator when it comes to the Priesthood Restoration but a sincere dupe with the angel and plates.
I think the fact they kept it secret/private doesnt therefore mean its a later invention, but obviously you can interpet it like that if you want, but thats not the only interpretation one can draw.
Excellent point about Oliver there! Well put!
Can you do an episode on some of the “failed prophecy’s” of Joseph Smith? I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I think some clarification may be helpful.
Thanks for your comment! We've done one or two episodes that might touch on some of these supposed failed prophecies, but feel free to message me on Facebook if you have specific points you have questions about!
ruclips.net/video/dd5OpiYxI-s/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/zKCK5yraB0o/видео.html
It's preposterous to claim that Joseph did not hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood on April 6, 1830 when the Church was organized. Without it they would have had NO authority to conduct general Church meetings, organize the Church formally, or participate in the ordinance of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost to baptized members, which happened at that time. On the same day Section 21 of the Doctrine and Covenants was revealed from Heaven, which states, directly to Joseph: "Behold, there shall be a record kept among you, and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, and apostle of Jesus Christ." Joseph had to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood to be an Apostle or even an Elder. We learn later that it was revealed to Joseph that ALL the prophets held the Melchizedek Priesthood. The record states that this higher priesthood was restored "soon after" the Aaronic Priesthood was restored in 1829. And you talk about arguing from a negative! Those who criticize the Church in this way and make these claims have ZERO windows into Joseph and Oliver's 17-hour plus days across weeks and months, so how in the world could modernists claim that the visions didn't happen when they weren't there, and such angelic visitations and even the Priesthood bestowal would not take a long time to do, as anyone who has participated in the ordinance can tell us. Again, the critics have little logic in their thinking.
Nice circular logic there. He had no authority to do anything. All that sustains your church’s truth claims are the tall tales of Joseph smith who was a charlatan, liar, and scammer.
The only point that matters is the first vision. If that's true then everything else after is of God and true. If that was false everything else after is false.
Agree. It was false
Agree. It was true
@@BenMyers72 let's do some critical thinking about the vision. All accounts show Joseph wanted to know which church to join but wasn't sure. So he turned to the bible which said "if you lack wisdom ask of God" Jesus said "ask and you shall receive." So he went to do that. He went to the woods and prayed to the father for an answer. And you're saying it was a vision of the devil? Do some critical thinking about it. For you to be right you would have to now be consistent and teach that Satan is more powerful than the father and intercepted that prayer and blocked God from hearing it and appeared as the father and son to lead Joseph to Jesus to lead Joseph away from Jesus. One account Joseph said he was told his sins were forgiven. So why would Satan appear as Jesus and tell him his sins were forgiven?
So for you to be right you now have to teach that you don't actually believe all the bible, you have to agree with the Pharisees that Jesus was casting out the devil by the power of the devil, and you'd have to teach Satan is more powerful than the father and can intercept our prayers.
So even if I join your church you have to be consistent and teach that in your church Satan can still intercept my prayers and deceive me. If God isn't powerful enough to answer our prayers then how can he guarantee our salvation? Do you see how fast your position falls apart for this logic?
Are you willing to do all that? Are you willing ascribe to all of that to justify how that was a vision of the devil instead of a vision of God?
Yes, I thought so too. But then after studying church history, I came to the conclusion that just because the first vision happened, it doesn't necessarily mean that everything we heard from the early church leaders was true. Men are still fallible. The Lord is the only true and reliable source. We need to validate everything we are taught through the Holy Ghostand scriptures instead of just assuming that it is all true because one aspect of it is true.
@@kahina937 indeed they are, which means it's true Joseph and the others did some stupid thing's and need a savior like they preached. To clarify I meant the primary events did happen if that vision is true. If the father and son appeared, then moroni was an Angel of God testifying of the resurrected Christ, the book of Mormon was revealed from God and Joseph translated it by the power of God. John the Baptist restored authority of baptism, Peter James and John restored the apostolic priesthood, and Joseph and Oliver ordained new apostles, organised a new seventy, and the church is rebuilt. It all in all means Joseph isn't the builder but Jesus is who built it by revelation and priesthood.
All of that follows true if that was a vision from God instead of a vision from the devil.
What I find most interesting, at least right now, about the restoration of the ironic priesthood, as reported in section 13, is this:
“and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.”
The Sons of Levi is an order that has been dormant for centuries, and until just recently, that is, the past few years, they have begun to be active again, in preparation for the third temple, and perhaps unknown to them, in preparation for the second coming of Jesus.
Aaronic
@@rachelrasmussen1101 Doh - didn’t even see that! Thx.
The AI Oliver Cowdrey image almost looks like Michael Fassbender (young Magneto).
D&C 82:7 “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any a sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.” Why didn’t Joseph remove this from the Doctrine and covenants? It seems as though an incomplete atonement is being taught here. I would appreciate anyone’s insight.
Those who repent of their sins but later return to their former ways and reject Christ forfeit their forgiveness of their previous sins, having rejected Christ altogether.
Real repentance means that someone won’t do the sin again, but if they do then they didn’t really repent, thus all the former come back. The lord said that if you want to have his endless sacrifices to be in our lives THEN we have to repent.
@@Joseph-tc8nk That is very confusing to me, if I make a mistake and genuinely do my best to receive forgiveness, repent (turn away), take the sacrament etc. God will forgive me right? Then if I commit the same sin in 10 years he is like nah I never really forgave you... how can forgiveness be forfeited if already given? Once a sin is forgiven it is done away with, that is the Atonement of Christ no? He remembers them no more right? I am genuinely wondering because it doesn't make sense
@@ballardfx1140 Once a sin is forgiven it is done away with and Christ remembers them no more, how is this any different? It seems like people beat themselves up enough because they dont really believe Christ when he says we are forgiven when we turn to Him.
@@dmoney4075 the consequence of sin is death, that’s why the fall came. Since then the Lord’s people had to offer/take the life of a clean innocent animal. We would still have to do that today if God didn’t come down and offer an endless amount of sacrifices!
There are many scriptures that show if someone truly repents them they will not do it again!!! Like a dog returning to its vomit.
From your speech I believe your understanding of sin if tainted. Sun is breaking God’s laws and etc…
Do you have a hard time keeping the 10 commandments? Duet 4 is the baptism covenants.
very good video, thank you brother.
Why are you using the photograph that IS NOT Joseph? Stop perpetuating the use of this false photo please.
Your new haircut is cool, and I am obsessed with everything music, but background noise and music is distracting.
Hear you loud and clear.
This is one of your best videos
Really appreciate that. Thanks!
Fab video, but I do not remember hearing background music on your other videos. Pls stop it. It’s distracting
We appreciate the feedback, and hear you loud and clear. We'll cut the background music in future videos.
@@davidsnell2605 Yall are the best.
Hu? Is that Marty Mcfly and Doc Brown???
:)
That’s Awesome reporting thank you !
Why did Joseph have so many miraculous experiences but subsequent prophets have not? Doesn’t add up.
Joseph was the prophet of the restoration so he was kind of a big guy.
In John 3 we see that John himself said that Jesus was from above and that he wasn’t. John by his own testimony swears that he is not from above/heaven.
@gatecrashercanadamb At that time. John the Baptist and John the Beloved had things happen to them after that point in time in the New Testament.
Alma did something similar. Alma baptized himself and Helam without being ordained but did it with direct authority fromt the spirit
Mosiah 18:12-16
12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
14 …both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.
15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.
16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon;
But he was a King's Noah priest before that. It can be argued that he technically had priesthood authority through his previous role.
@@kahina937 wasn’t king Noah wicked and killed Abinadi? His priests were also wicked. Alma repented but I don’t believe he was ever ordained by someone with true authority I could be wrong. Either way I think it’s interesting that he kinda baptized himself
I dig this
👍
I’ve read some of Foehn Brody’s writings, they’re ridiculous.
Why is there continual background noise? So distracting! Had to stop listening.
We'll avoid background music in future videos, thanks for the feedback.
Great video 🙌
Glad you liked it!
Annoying background music
Diggin the hair style
It's called, "David went to Craig's Cuts."
PLEASE COME CHECK OUT A CHRISTIAN CHURCH: You are invited to come visit a Christian church at Cornerstone Chapel in Leesburg Virginia, or attend an online Worship service. (We promise, you will find only people seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus.)
We are a Christian church...
So you're persecuting Latter-Day Saints again huh and you've had since 1830 to prove all of us wrong and you haven't done it yet
??? You realize this is a pro-Latter-day Saint channel, yeah?
I’ll use revelation to translate this comment for everyone
“I read the title and didn’t watch the video”
I use to believe the church until I found out they had a problem telling the truth!
Sure. The antichrist literature with all its spin, serious omissions, and outright falsehoods provide a much better guide. Nope. I've read too much of that tripe and followed things to primary sources to believe the modern day version of the pharisees and saduccees.
There’s not telling the truth and then theres leaving out details.
The church’s full history has been published for decades. If you didn’t read it it’s not the churches fault they decided to focus on simple easy to follow details of church history during Sunday school rather than diving into all the intricacies.
It’s easier to say “Joseph smith translated the gold plates by the gift and power of God” vs “Joseph smith used a Seer stone he found while digging a well which he later threw into a hat and God used that as a means of translating”. Then members get all in the weeds about specifics. When the important thing is focusing on the Atonement Of Jesus Christ.
Joseph Smith never lied.
While I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, it’s important to remember that prophets are not God . They are fallible. They make mistakes. They need Christ’s atonement as much as we do. That said, we should give them grace as we should for everyone when we find fault. Remember that even Elder Holland said that all God has to work with are imperfect beings.
Yes, yes he did.
The first will be last and the last will be first
So was Joseph from the priesthood tribe and lineage of Levi?
No
@@BlazeHawk1315 therefore he could not hold the Priesthood
@@gatecrashercanadamb False. Jesus was not from Levi, still has priesthood. Jesus gave this priesthood to the 12 Apostles. They most likely were not from Levi either, seeing that we have no stories of any of them working in the temple before their calling to Apostleship. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, thus nullifying the requirement of Levitical lineage to bear priesthood. Nice try baiting tho ;)
@@BlazeHawk1315 joseph didn't fulfill all the requirements of a high priest, Jesus did and no he didn't pass it on to the disciples, even by a laying on of hands. Jesus did away with the role of high priest when he fulfilled the requirements on the cross through his death and rerssurection. We are all priests but Christ is our high priest (Heb. 2:7&4:14; 1 Peter 2:5-9;). The Atonement happened through his blood sacrifice for us on the cross (Heb. 9:7;7:26-27) Unlike the OT Levitical priests, they had to continually offer sacrifices to pay for the sins of others, Jesus made one sacrifice for the sins of many/all (Heb. 9:12, 2:9, 4:15; 4:14-16). He gave up himself as an offering for all of us (Titus 2:11-14) once and for all (Rom. 5:19).
Sir. Oliver backstabbed Jospeh accusing him of adultery…. He did the unthinkable. (You should edit these facts). Secondly, Jospeh didn’t receive the priesthood from Peter James and John. Again, look at the facts. The Melchizedek priesthood comes by the voice of God and God alone. Please see Section 84:42. There is a reason the church can’t find where Peter James and John gave the priesthood is because they don’t understand that it comes directly from God.
God appointed his servants Peter James and John. It does not come from them it come from God through them. Like the sacrament blessing is not a blessing by the young priests but by God through the priests
The scriptures have informed us that the High Priesthood is given by God’s own voice. There are several examples and here are a few:
“Now Melchizedek was a man of faith who wrought righteousness. And when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire. And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the Order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, it being after the Order of the Son of God, which Order came not by man, nor the will of men, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God. And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.”
“We now became anxious to have that promise realized to us which the angel that conferred upon us the Aaronic priesthood had given us, namely that, provided we continued faithful, we should also have the Melchizedek priesthood, which holds the authority of the laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost. We had for some time made this matter a subject of humble prayer, and at length we got together in the chamber of Mr. Whitmer’s house in order more particularly to seek of the Lord what we now so earnestly desired.
And here, to our unspeakable satisfaction, did we realize the truth of the Savior’s promise: Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For we had not long been engaged in solemn and fervent prayer when the word of the Lord came unto us in the chamber, commanding us that I should ordain Oliver Cowdery to be an elder in the church of Jesus Christ, and that he also should ordain me to the same office, and then to ordain others as it should be made known unto us from time to time.”
“And this is according to the oath and the covenant which belongs to the Priesthood. Therefore, all those who receive the Priesthood receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. But whoever breaks this covenant after he has received it, and altogether turns therefrom, shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come, and all those who come not unto this Priesthood which you have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, namely the twenty-third day of September, A.D. 1832, eleven high priests, save one, by my own voice out of the Heavens. And even I have given the Heavenly host and my angels charge concerning you.”
“All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself.”
No matter how clear it is in scripture- the LDS won’t allow the scriptures to tell the story - we allow the doctrines of men and devils tell the story. It’s a pretty significant truth to study and to get right.
@@mattenger7064 D&C 1:38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
Alma who was present at the death of Abinadi in the court of King Noah and spoke out in his defense, had to flee for his life. He hid out at the Waters of Mormon along with others. There he baptized folks and established the Church. Where did Alma get Priesthood authority to baptize, confirm and establish the Lord's church? Under who's hands was this power bestowed?
@@jamesbaldwin7676he received it from heaven as should ALL men who want priesthood. If you want a priesthood among men - by all means - ask for it. But if you want Priesthood from heaven that has no beginning and no end and that will be with you from eternity though all eternity- it must come from Heaven.
What about Jesus Christ being baptized by John? Jesus didn't need to be baptized either but he did it.
Jesus also was baptizing and in John 3 it points out that baptism is the washings and anointings are receiving the Holy Spirit.
I believe Jesus Christ 🙏🏻 was baptized because he was setting the example for his brothers and sisters, meaning all of us!
@@stardustgirl2904 We are not his brothers and sisters. This is a man made doctrine and is sad to see. As the scriptures show he is our father. His father is OUR grandfather.
1&2 Nephi show this very well
Ether 3
3 Nephi 19:18
Dec 29
and many many many more!!!
@@ballardfx1140i dont think so. Jesus didnt have a body before he came to the earth. How can you have spiritual children if you are not a completed glorified person with a body?
What are you talking about? Have you forgotten when Christ appeared to Mary in the Garden tomb that he said "...I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"
Christ is our "Father" in a few ways, He is the representative of the Father to this Earth. The Father has placed His name and authority on Christ. He carries out the Father's will regarding this earth and our Salvation. He is the Father of the Covenant. Mosiah 5 says we spiritually become his sons and daughters through baptism because Salvation comes through him. Jesus is called the "Father of Heaven and Earth" because He created the heavens and the earth.
A lie implies intent to deceive and that could be debated forever. He could have been lying or hallucinating or believed he saw something. It still doesn’t mean it actually happened. Things like accuracy or reality aren't exactly a priority when it comes to faith-promoting stories.
There's the anti mormon. Can't have a decent spiritual video without em 😉
I have had many spiritual experiences, but I rarely speak about them, simply because we're all God's children and his 🎁 gifts to each one of us are different. I never wanted to have any of my sweet 🧁 friends feel bad if they didn't have the some the same experiences as I did!
uh, no...