Did Joseph Smith kill any attackers at Carthage Jail? | Ep. 217
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2024
- Joseph Smith was murdered by a mob while he was being held in Carthage Jail, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. Joseph did have a gun at the time of the attack, and he did fire it at his assailants. Rumors have since swirled that Joseph killed one or two attacked, but, is that actually true?
Video transcript: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
- “Joseph Smith’s death: 96-hour timeline surrounding his martyrdom,” via Church News: tinyurl.com/2dwxy28x
- “John Taylor's June 27, 1854, Account of the Martyrdom,” by LaJean P. Carruth & Mark L. Staker (BYU Studies): tinyurl.com/3tefxxf7
- “The Martyrdom of Joseph Smith and His Brother Hyrum,” by Dan Jones (intro by Ronald Dennis), via BYU Studies: tinyurl.com/bde9xrhb
- “William Vorhease and the Murder of Joseph Smith,” by Joseph Johnston (John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, Vol. 35, No. 1, pgs 38-61): tinyurl.com/mr2n59ps
- “Return to Carthage: Writing the History of Joseph Smith’s Martyrdom,” by Dean C. Jessee (Journal of Mormon History, vol. 8 [1981], pgs. 3-19): tinyurl.com/3k9ch97y
- “The Mormon Trials,” New York Herald, June 10, 1845 (page 2). Supposedly a reprint of an earlier article by the Missouri Republican: tinyurl.com/4v6n45b4
- “Joseph and Hyrum Smith’s Martyrdom,” via Mormonr.org: tinyurl.com/ycyy4jur
- List of primary sources regarding the martyrdom via Mormonr.org: tinyurl.com/2da4eu8w
- “Physical Evidence at Carthage Jail and What It Reveals about the Assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith,” by Joseph L. Lyon & David W. Lyon (BYU Studies): tinyurl.com/29zz4spw
- “Road to Martyrdom: Joseph Smith’s Last Legal Cases,” by Joseph I. Bentley (BYU Studies): tinyurl.com/mrxdeeku
- “Joseph Smith, a True Martyr,” by Daniel Bachman: tinyurl.com/2s3kh2jm
- “Was Joseph Smith a Martyr or a Murderer?” by Lance Starr (FAIR): tinyurl.com/53ykj2zz
- “Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt,” chapter 52 (Townsend story): tinyurl.com/mw8r3ts6
- “Jeremiah Willey statement, 1844 August 13,” via the Church History Catalog: tinyurl.com/bd7mfbbr
- An image of the pepperbox pistol Joseph likely used at Carthage: tinyurl.com/mr39sfrz
- “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” by John M. Hay (Atlantic Monthly, Dec. 1869 issue): tinyurl.com/2v8u25az
- We know more about Voras (Vorhease) than the other two injured men. This article shows he was alive and well decades after the attack: tinyurl.com/mr2n59ps
- Most scholars assert that Joseph fired 3 shots from his pistol (including renowned critic, Fawn Brodie). However, 25 years after Carthage, the Atlantic Monthly (linked above) reported that Joseph had actually shot four times, and injured a fourth man, who the article does not name, because he was “preparing to prove an alibi.” Some researchers (see “Carthage Conspiracy,” by Oaks and Marvin, pg. 52) believe the 4th man might have been a Mr. Allen (possibly Nathan N. Allen, see fn 22 on pg. 61), who was also indicted but also didn’t show up. We don’t know much about Mr. Allen, but I’m unaware of any specific claims that he died as a result of his wounds. His indictment and apparent “preparations to prove an alibi” (whatever that may mean in 1869) suggest he was alive. The author of the Atlantic article was only 5 years old at the time of the murders, and he gets some details quite wrong (i.e. he wrote that Joseph had “two loaded six-barrelled revolvers” at his disposal).
- Joseph and Hyrum overheard Dan Jones’ conversation with Worrell. Afterwards, Joseph asked Dan to tell the governor about the threat. Dan did so, but the governor didn’t take him seriously. When Dan returned to the jail, he was not allowed back in. Fun fact: Franklin Worrell was later killed by Porter Rockwell.
- Dean Jessee reported that Fullmer’s pockets were searched before he was allowed to enter the jail, but the single-shot pistol was in his boot.
See Pg. 7 here: tinyurl.com/b4fubay3
- I cited a lot of resources in this video. For links to those that are available online, see the relevant hyperlinks in the transcript of this episode on our website, SaintsUnscripted.com.
- According to Alva Matheson, [John M.?] Higbee said that Charles Fancher “was one of the mob who killed old Joe Smith and that he still had his (Smith’s) pistol, the one that he shot through the jail house door with killing one of Fancher’s friends.” This should be taken with a grain of salt, though, as it’s a late, non-first-hand source, and another report tells the story differently (a man claiming to have the gun that killed Joseph, not the gun that Joseph used to kill someone else). See pg. 60 of this JWHA article for analysis and citations: tinyurl.com/mr2n59ps
SUBSCRIBE:
saintsunscripted/subscribe
Follow the Hosts:
David: / davidesnell
![Cordae - Saturday Mornings (feat. Lil Wayne) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z2GYJua09F0/mqdefault.jpg)
It's interesting to me that some people are critical of Joseph Smith for shooting attackers who were trying to kill everyone in the room. He was defending himself and others. This is a no brainer, Joseph did nothing wrong in this incident.
Nothing wrong with self-defense. the problem is, you cannot claim your a martyr and fight back. Also you cannot destroy a printing press because you dont like what they said about you, then go to jail, claim your like Jesus and going as a lamb to the slaughter and then fight back.
@@rickbeaudin1mar·tyr
noun
a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
Says nothing about not fighting back. Also people destroyed the Saints' printing press earlier and we're not jailed for it. Doesn't make Joseph's decision right, but people fail to mention it. But we believe in repentance, I am sorry you don't. Also burning a printing press does not condemn someone to death by mob. The mob was in the wrong.
@@rickbeaudin1I’m having a hard time seeing this logic make sense.
Martyrdom-
a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
I don’t see a clause that the individual can’t have a gun.
@@rickbeaudin1ever heard of Jon of Arc? She wielded a sword lead army’s etc. She is considered a martyr. It’s called double standards.
@@andrewdurfee3896 Did you know that just because you believe you are one, or people believe you are does not make it true.
I've known people say what's a "man of god" doing with a gun ? And my response is, when Jesus was arrested, what was Peter doing with a sword ?
DId Jesus say to Peter, "Hey, way to go! Now that's being a man of God!" No, Jesus said...
John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
Because Jesus was like a lamb going to the slaughter. Joseph was like a wolf, trying to get away from justice when a mob decided otherwise.
@@ts-900 what Jesus said is irrelevant - Peter was there with a sword, and used it. Joseph was imprisoned on trumped - up charges, and it sounds like you approve of mob violence. Also check out Luke 22:36. And why wouldn't he want to defend his brother and close friends ?
@@tezzerii I'm not trying to justify Peter's actions. If I were, I would have said something like, "we don't know if Peter struck off the man's ear because he didn't aim to kill, or because he was just not used to handling a sword."
Joseph was NOT imprisoned on "trumped-up charges." Historical evidence indicates the reverse, that he was getting away with murder, perhaps literally.
Nevertheless, Joseph had a right to a fair trial, and I wish he had received a fair trial.
I'm okay with Joseph defending himself, to a degree. We weren't there, but maybe there was a non-violent way out?
I keep thinking that a man of God would have turned himself in and confessed to the crimes.
@@ts-900 think away. There were no crimes. You're cherrypicking the historical evidence. JS was never legally convicted of anything. And the only non violent response to a mob is to let them murder you and your friends. As for "lamb to the slaughter", that's exactly what JS said, as he actually did, as you expect, turn himself in to keep the peace. And for that he was murdered by a mob while the guards did nothing. Whether he was a prophet or not, he didn't deserve that.
@@tezzerii I've seen too much evidence. Mobs just don't "materialize" for no reason, as you are suggesting. No one cared about some new religion, they cared about all the violence that accompanied these men wherever they went.
Not to mention the banking charges that they were found guilty of, and sleeping with other men's wives.
John Taylor...
“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning. I have a conscience void of offence towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me. ‘He was murdered in cold blood'” (D&C 135:4).
Same John Taylor...
"John Taylor actually said, "I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."
Remember, the LDS had for decades covered up the fact that Joseph Smith shot three people, possibly four. It's not a stretch that they would cover up other critical facts.
PS: The issue isn't whether Joseph Smith deserved it; the problem is that Joseph had a right to a fair trial, which I wish he had received.
I’m an atheist who was raised Catholic, but I follow this channel to get a Mormon perspective while I do my own research into American religion.
When my family visited Nauvoo and Carthage in the mid 80s the senor missionaries talked about the guns when describing the final hours of the Prophet. People complaining that the Church hid these details must ignore the History of the Church and the many books written on the subject.
Most people don't read History of the Church. It is seven volumes and makes for great reading. Maybe it's the length. Some don't even know about the book. I find most members don't read church history at all, even if the books are written by LDS scholars. If it does not have that church logo on a book they won't read it.
@@user-og2wt3le4j The same people that act like the Church has been hiding information, seem to think Doctrines of Salvation or Mormon Doctrine are good enough. History of the Church was published by Deseret, which doesn't mean it was commissioned by the leadership at least indicates they had no objection, and BH Roberts was one of the 7 presidents of the 70. Both DOS and MD where published by Bookcraft because Deseret straight up refused to.
@@user-og2wt3le4j That sounds very cultist.
@@ts-900 Americans in general are not known for actually reading history books, LDS are fairly middle of the road in that respect.
@@brettmajeske3525 And that's why we currently have a fascist President.
Faiths and Beliefs are my favorite videos! And I’m so grateful for all the prophets. Please keep up the great work! :)
Thanks, man!
I get why some people would have a problem with Joseph shooting back. There's an account of him saying he's "going like a lamb to the slaughter" which references Christ's crucifixion. If Joseph were comparing his arrest to Jesus's martydom, the fact he fought back with a gun wouldn't match up Christ's example of reverent acceptance for His fate.
That being said, when Christ was killed, He was the only target. Joseph had 3 other men with him and the mob attacked them all. Even if Joseph knew he was going to die, he'd still do his best to defend his friends. The fact that people think fighting back means someone is exempt from martyrdom is so dumb.
not true, Joseph Smith never gave an account saying he was defending his friends. and years ago LDS would deny he shot anyone or even fought back. But those stubborn facts could not be erased from history. So they must now admit it happened. And to say Jesus was the only target is not exactly true. Jesus said let these go, yet they tried getting Peter to admit he was with Jesus, but denied that 3x.
@@rickbeaudin1Joseph didn't give an account that he was defending his friends because he died before he could give said account. Like when did he have time to write something down before he was shot himself?
@@spideyN8R either way, Joseph was both a coward and liar. He was not a martyr. In the book, teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, he wanted to run and cross the boarder and not turn himself in. His brother talked him to turning himself in. So he cannot claim he knew he was going to die, act like a martyr, then try and fight back.
@@rickbeaudin1mar·tyr
noun
a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
He still is a martyr according to the actual definition of the word. The definition does not state "can't contemplate running away first and can't fight back." One can cause their own death and be a martyr. You just don't understand what a martyr is . All they have to do is die for their beliefs, which he did.
@@rickbeaudin1 besides the 2nd Ammendment justifies joeseph as acting within his God given constitutional rights.. but here you are going at length to find fault not in those murderers but in a man who would lawfully seek to defend his friends life's.. and all you can do is hunt for some shred of fault.. fault in a word.. like martyr.. just stirs you up doesn't it..! while dismissing the blatant murders.
Strain at a gnat. But swallow a camel.
Very interesting. Thank you David.
About 7 years ago I went to the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City. I saw the guns used by Joseph and Hyrum and asked an elderly man working in the exhibit if he knew if Joseph killed anyone. He told me he wasn't sure but doubted it. Back then I was very critical of the church and immediately assumed he was actively dismissing information. Now I understand why he may have been so unsure.
The fact that Robert F. Smith, who was the Captain of those guarding the jail failed to stop guns being smuggled in, and the fact that Joseph and his friends did not use the guns to try to break out are interesting issues. I suspect a guard at a jail could be punished for letting guns get smuggled into prisoners. And one would think real crooks in a jail would use guns to try to break out.
Joseph Smith defending himeslf doesn't sound right to me.
1: He already a gun to his face before but just started daring to shoot him instead. That and all the other times where he put his life at risk. Certainly he wasnt afraid of death.
2: There were friends there as well, and he was cery protective of other people. His brother was dead and the others were hiding, of of them promised to stay alive. People were outside the window, shooting at it, so they couldn't flee. Obviously, Joseph tried to distract the mob by jumping out of the window and into the bullets. Or as the non-latterday-saint Colonel Hay wrote about that day:
"Joseph, seeing there was no safety in the room, and no doubt thinking that it would save the lives of his brethren in the room if he could get out, turned calmly from the door, dropped his pistol on the floor and sprang into the window when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. 'O Lord, my God!'"
Notice that he even dropped the gun before he did it. That's not how you defend yourself
A man defending and dying for his friends in the name of religion and not trying to save his own skin is worthy of being called a martyr
I read an account saying ,"Joseph sprang for his six-shooter." Sounds like a John Wayne movie. However a Six-shooter in 1844 was hardly an accourate weapon, besides 6 shots against 100 men with rifles, hardly a fair fight.
Literally. And he hunted treasure and was a necromancer. And clearly got insane amounts of puthy. The Mormon Church frequently makes Joseph Smith way less cool than he was in real-life. Guy was _hilarious._
These videos are great!!! keep up the great work!!!
"I'm not saying I didn't have setbacks. It's not called 'gunrunning' for nothing. You've gotta be fast on your feet""
Why was the mob so angry??? It is a matter of historical fact that Joseph had secretly taken over 30 plural wives by May 1844 when he made the below denial that he was ever a polygamist:
“...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and
having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as
innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.”
- History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapter 19, p.411
thank you
The “Han Shot First” debate but religious
Have you ever read the book entitled, “The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith?” I haven’t read it for years, but I found it very interesting!🤔 According to the book Brigham Young pronounced a curse on the men who killed his best friend and that curse was fulfilled.
Critics love this fact. I hear many critics say that Joseph “died in a gunfight.” To call this a gunfight is wildly stretching the truth and is irresponsible. But many, if not most, Latter-day Saint critics, I have found, to be wildly irresponsible with facts. Don’t let those pesky facts get in the way of a good story.
Um...it was a gunfight without the stretch. But I care more about the fact that he was like a wolf, not a lamb.
@@ts-900 how was it like a gun fight? A gun fight to me implies two men each with a gun shooting at each other, not a mob of more than 100 men with guns there to murder 4 men with only two guns between them.
@@davidlemon7543 Well, if you want to see a gunfight as two men, then you are right. But I see a gun fight when there are two or more opposing parties fighting with guns, don't you?
@@ts-900 calling this situation a gun fight just is not objectively accurate or fair. Take out the fact that this involves Joseph Smith (who you clearly detest) and look at the other facts. No reasonable objective person would call this a gun fight.
@@davidlemon7543 I don't know how to explain to people that I hate the cancer, but love the patient.
I call it a gun fight because it was a fight with guns, and the evidence shows that the LDS covered it up completely for decades. If Joseph was innocent and the LDS good, why deceive people?
I am a reasonable person, and I call it a gun fight. I think Jesus would call it a gun fight too.
This is so tragic. I hope God brought justice against the assassins
You might be interested in a later event between a certain Porter Rockwell and the Frank Worrell mentioned in this video.
@@davidsnell2605 I will look that up. Thanks you
2:13 - LOL about the footage this was taken from.
Amazing historic account.❤
I love that you used couple scenes from Justine's film👌. I didn't think I would like his work but finally decided to watch and LOVED IT🔥😎. My thoughts are now...
What he came up with was in such great detail I'll have to be convinced with the same level effort that he's wrong. Them cowboys days were rough and killing is just what people did for hobby
In Luke 22:38, the Lord was just fine with his disciples bringing 2 swords on their way to Gethsemane. This is a whole lot of nothing burger.
This is the first time I've ever heard the Navoo expositor referred to as "anti LDS". Is that the new narrative? Feels like you're purposely leaving out key information.
That has been a very consistent narrative since the 1850s.
William Law and others had already started their own church..of course their paper was anti lds
Hey I have a genuine question. Do you believe that God was once a man with His own “God”?
Just as much as any person who believes Christ was a man and has His God.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 which is also stupid, God is One and is Far Transcendent of man, if God had a God why not just worship the original God? The Uncreated Starting Point of all existence
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Jesus is merely a man and prophet blessed by God, he is in no way divine as he doesn’t have any of the traits that God has
@@clintonbaird5465 What is worship to you? Is there only one definition of worship?
@@jacobsamuelson3181 why do you keep changing the topic? It doesn’t really matter what worship is. The important thing is that there is only One Original, Uncreated Source and He is the One that has complete control over and knowledge of every aspect of creation. Therefore He is the Only One worthy of our deepest respect and veneration, as He completely controls everything.
The internal gun fight between Joseph and John Taylor makes more sense. Especially concerning the fact that Joseph was preparing charges against the polygamist.
Richard’s and Taylor quickly left town and when the opportunity came to defend Joseph and hyrum in a court case shortly after their killings these 2 supposedly friends refused to show up to court to identify anyone present that day.. the supposedly only Two eyewitness refused to show up in court..
They were almost killed..no wonder they stayed away from the trial. The audience was made up largely from the mob and opened carried in the courtroom. It was a sham trial and everyone knew it would be
Interesting, this follows the 4th or 5th version that the church had, too bad it doesn't fit The Narrative of what actually happened. I've been taking apart gun fights for a long time I've been teaching people to shoot since 1970. That did not happen nor did the people who came up the back stairs agree with that. They stated that Joseph Smith came to the top of the stairs and fired three rounds at them and went back into the room. By the time they got upstairs and fired at the door it immediately opened and they went in and Hiram was already shot as was John Taylor. Joseph Smith was already out the window. There were a total of 12 wounds from gunshots inside the room.
I believe that Hiram was the first one shot underneath his chin and the bullet exited the left side of his nose. He would not have been able to Proclaim that he was shot and Joseph Smith had not yet returned to the room however he was able I believed to fire his single-shot pistol into John Taylor's left thigh. When Joseph Smith returned the other three shots went into John Taylor's right knee has left hand and his shoulder. John Taylor then gets under the bed. Richards is still hiding in the corner which is what he told John Taylor's doctor when he was the first one to enter the room after all of the shenanigans had cleared up. Those who came up the back stairs said they fired and the door immediately open they went in and because Hiram was still alive they shot him as he lied on the floor. I believe that Oren was the one who pushed Joseph out the window. The four shots in Joseph's abdomen may have been fired by John Taylor or may have been fired by people after he was already dead when they claimed they leaned him up against the well and shot him four times in the abdomen. That is not consistent with some of the evidence however. The evidence indicates that Joseph was also shot with pistol rounds and the people outside allegedly shot him with rifles
Jesus was murdered and he stood there and took it. Joseph Smith fought back. See the difference?
Joseph wasn't Jesus, so I don't have any problem with the difference. Joseph was also defending his brother and two friends whose lives were also in danger. I have no problem with him fighting back.
I don't see how fighting back is supposed to prove anything. Jesus christ always knew he was going to be crucified, Joseph smith had no such intentions.
Didn't Jesus beat people with whip?
The fact that he didn't kill anyone when he attempted to doesn't really change the fact that he tried to kill someone. Smith was a martyr no doubt but his death is no where comparable to the disciples and apostles. The disciples and apostles don't defend themselves and simply preach the Gospel and trust God. Smith does his best to survive clearly not wanting to die and doing everything he could to avoid being killed.
I don't care if he killed someone or not, he tried to. The fact that he was a bad shot doesn't change much.
Have you ever heard of cover fire? We do not know if he was trying to kill people, or just rry and convince them to leave.
"I don't care if he killed someone or not, he tried to." ---- I largely agree with you. As per the video, I'm really not too concerned with whether or not he killed any of his attackers. I don't think there's much at stake either way. In either case, fighting back/defending himself (and his brother/friends) would have been completely justifiable, in my opinion. I have no problem with Joseph (or anyone, for that matter) killing someone that is in the act of attempting to murder them.
"Smith was a martyr no doubt but his death is no where comparable to the disciples and apostles." ---- The video doesn't draw any parallels to the deaths of the apostles, so I've got no gripe there. That said, I wouldn't have faulted any of the apostles for fighting back against their executors, either. Just because death is inevitable doesn't mean you have to "go quietly into that good night!"
@@davidsnell2605 It shows to me that the Martyrdom of the apostles and of Smith are of a completely different caliber. The apostles follow the example of Jesus, Smith follows the example of human nature and valuing yourself above those around you. Self-defense is not a Christian concept I don't believe it is an American one, we often conflate the two.
I know you weren't comparing the apostles and Smith in this video but I have seen many LDS talk of the apostle's willingness to die as proof the apostles were telling the truth then move to Smiths' martyrdom to make the same point. Smith wasn't willing to die, he did everything in his power to prevent it.
In the words of the Apostle Paul "For me to live is Christ to die is gain". This is not the view of Smith obviously.
@@BeardedDisciple interesting perspective on self-defense! Thanks for sharing. I respectfully disagree, but I think I understand where you're coming from. Would you also consider it un-Christian-like to come to the defense of others? Joseph was certainly defending himself, but also everyone else in the room. I'm quite surprised by your assertion that this was an example of Joseph valuing himself above others. The way I see it, he died trying to protect not only himself, but his friends. John 15:13 comes to mind, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
"Smith wasn't willing to die, he did everything in his power to prevent it." -- My opinion is that you can resist being killed and still be willing to give your life for your convictions. Multiple contemporary accounts report that Joseph knew there was a very good chance he would be killed if he went to Carthage, and he went willingly nonetheless. In the first assault on the jail (as mentioned in the video) he called out, "Come on ye assassins, we are ready for you, and would as *willingly* die now as at daylight."
I do agree thought that Joseph's martyrdom is often promoted as evidence of the truthfulness of his testimony. While I don't think his murder categorically proves anything, I certainly don't think it harms his case. Just before the attack, they found comfort in their plight by reading from the Book of Mormon. That's a weird thing to do if Joseph just made it up out of whole cloth. Again, it doesn't prove anything, but his willingness to turn himself in knowing the very real threat to his life *is consistent with the claim* that he was telling the truth.
@@BeardedDisciple He was a prophet of God. Of course his death and how it came about means something to the Restoration and significant comparable to what prophets and apostles in the past have gone through with their own deaths. You seem to want to downplay but even apostles and prophets are men, have human nature but that doesn't take away he was the prophet bringing who cared for what happened to humanity, and not just himself. No man puts themselves in what he endured and went through just because. Its interesting the attempts to discredit Joseph over and over and yet it never works and always falls flat
I went to this historic Mormon site two years ago. The tour directors repeated several times that Joseph and Hyrum had nothing to protect themselves against the mob. They obviously know the real history but we must protect Jesus 2.0 aka Joseph smith at all cost, especially if that means sacrificing truth.
So the tour guides are unpaid missionaries that actually don't know all the information. So they are not hiding the truth. The Church has come out and said that he did have a gun, so why would they try to hide it in the tour? It was an ignorant mistake by the missionaries not a coverup of the truth.
@@spideyN8R This makes us distrust the LDS church because they are always whitewashing events and rewriting history. Why do this if Joseph was a good, innocent man, a man of God, a prophet? Of course, we can't blame anyone who doesn't know.
And Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by me."
And I went a few years ago and the tour guide said that Smith did have a gun. Unfortunately, your tour guide was mistaken, not necessarily lying, if he was ignorant of the facts.
I have been to Carthage many times since the early 80s, and every missionary I have met there talked about Joseph firing the gun, but that it was uncertain if anyone was hit or killed.
In some respects, it doesn't matter if they died -- he shot at them, hit them, presumably with the intent to kill.
Here is the problem...
According to the testimony of John Taylor, Smith commented,
“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning. I have a conscience void of offence towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me. ‘He was murdered in cold blood'” (D&C 135:4).
Great guy!
But remember, the LDS has for decades covered up the fact that Joseph Smith shot three people. It's not a stretch that they would cover up any deaths as well.
"John Taylor actually said, "I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."
Ut oh. We have a paradox! Or do we? Maybe John Taylor was a worthless witness so that D&C 135:4 cannot be trusted?
At the time, President Joseph Smith was General, King, Priest and Prophet Joseph Smith. He was a General because he formed an army against the states of Missouri and Illinois. And at the time, declaring himself King would have been considered treasonous (or having the "Council of the 50" declare him King).
I don't know if three or four were shot, but as for their indictments, I think dead men don't show up. Does anyone remember that time when John the Baptist or Moses had a gun? Me either.
Remember when Moses killed an Egyptian man to defend another Israelite? And how years later he and Joshua lead the Israelites in several violent wars against the Canaanites? Evidently you didn't.
@@brighambentley Yes, and Moses was not supposed to do that! It cost him 40 years in the wilderness. Joshua, on the other hand, was ordered by God to take the lands due to His Judgements against the inhabitants.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus [Joshua] into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
When has the Church ever covered up the fact Joseph had a gun? It's in the History of the Church, edited by BH Roberts. Just because ignorant members have not read the history, does not mean the Church is hiding the history. Every ward library I have ever seen has a copy of the history.
It’s a non issue for Latter-day Saints (see D&C 134:5). Disagree if you will, but we are not pacifists (though members may choose to be). We do not delight in blood-shed, but do not have a problem defending ourselves. Joseph Smith was TOTALLY justified in using a firearm.
@@Leap3D17 John Taylor also said, "I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."
If he was lying, an unreliable witness, then so is D&C 134:5, right?
Personally, I think Joseph Smith caused enough trouble. He probably should have surrendered to the authorities, told his troops to stand down, and confessed his crimes.
And the onion layers of lies keep unfolding about Joseph Smith. The LDS Church loves to liken Joseph to Jesus, when the opposite is evident, according to most accounts of Joseph's actions , both from Church sources or non Church sources it appears that most likely, Joseph was prideful , narcissistic and self serving, which in turn angered a lot of people. Imagine being sent on a mission far away , purportedly "divinely called of the lord" by a man revered to be a Prophet, then to learn after returning from your mission that the said Prophet who sent you on the mission, married your wife in secret so he can inherit her in the eternities and not you! Upon this and many other reasons there were people both within the church and outside of the church that wanted him dead or at least be punished for his crimes. To use his name as anything closely related to Christlike attributes is insanely preposterous.
If you have names and specific evidence regarding who exactly Joseph married whose husband was on a mission at the time, please share. Here's a video we did on the subject: ruclips.net/video/QtzlhjwiBPc/видео.htmlsi=i6MxJSyc0l5GYJVF