Is it really justifiable to call Joseph Smith a martyr? | Ep. 218
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Latter-day Saints consider Joseph Smith to be a martyr for their faith. However, some people don't feel that he qualifies for that title. In this episode, David explores what it means to be a martyr, and whether or not Joseph can justifiably be called one.
Video transcript: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
- “Joseph and Hyrum Smith’s Martyrdom,” Q&A via Mormonr: tinyurl.com/ycyy4jur
- List of primary sources regarding the martyrdom via Mormonr.org: tinyurl.com/2da4eu8w
- “Untouchable: Joseph Smith's Use of the Law as Catalyst for Assassination,” by Alex D. Smith in the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society, Vol. 112, No. 1 (Spring 2019), pp. 8-42: tinyurl.com/zfss249k
- “Physical Evidence at Carthage Jail and What It Reveals about the Assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith,” by Joseph L. Lyon & David W. Lyon (BYU Studies): tinyurl.com/29zz4spw
- “Joseph Smith, a True Martyr,” by Daniel Bachman: tinyurl.com/2s3kh2jm
- “Question: Is the definition of a Christian martyr always understood only as one who does not fight back?” via FAIR: tinyurl.com/44em6n98
- “Was Joseph Smith a Martyr or a Murderer?” by Lance Starr (FAIR): tinyurl.com/53ykj2zz
- Suggested reading:
- “Rough Stone Rolling,” by Richard Bushman
- “Carthage Conspiracy,” by Oaks & Marvin
- “Joseph: Exploring the Life and Ministry of the Prophet,” by Black & Skinner
- “Know Brother Joseph,” edited by Smith, Godfrey, & Grow
Notes:
- Imagine two Christians who are about to get eaten by lions in the Roman colosseum. Both were willing to die before renouncing their beliefs. One of them lies limp on the ground while the lion eats him. The other struggles, and hits the lion in the face as he’s being eaten. Is the struggling Christian no longer a martyr because he resisted the lion? I find the "requirement" that “a true martyr doesn’t resist death” to be unrealistically narrow.
- Webster’s 1828 Dictionary and the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English cast a medium-sized net, in that they require death (not just suffering), but do not require a willing or voluntary death. Webster’s 1828: tinyurl.com/5n7fudep / Longman: tinyurl.com/4duz2nz4
- After Joseph and the others turned themselves in to authorities, Vilate Kimball wrote in a letter to her husband, “My heart said Lord bless those Dear men, and presurve them from those that thirst for their blood. Their giveing themselves up, is all that will save our city from destruction.” Source: Vilate Kimball Letter to Heber C. Kimball, June 9, 1844 (she doesn’t complete the letter until many days later).
- From History of the Church (6:551), as Joseph returned to Nauvoo to turn himself in to the authorities: “About 4 P.M. Joseph, Hyrum, the Doctor and others started back. While walking towards the river, Joseph fell behind with Orrin P. Rockwell. The other shouted to come on. Joseph replied, ‘It is of no use to hurry, for we are going back to be slaughtered….’”
- Joseph deliberated with others about whether to go into hiding or turn himself in. According to a report from Abraham C. Hodge, this is how it went down (recorded in History of the Church, 6:545. “‘Brethren, here is a letter from the Governor which I wish to have read.[’] After it was read through Joseph remarked, ‘There is no mercy-no mercy here.’ Hyrum said, ‘No; just as sure as we fall into their hands we are dead men.’ Joseph replied, ‘Yes; what shall we do, Brother Hyrum?’” They then decided to go into hiding (though only briefly).
- “I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be massacred, or I was not a prophet of God. I want Hyrum to live to avenge my blood, but he is determined not to leave me.” (History of the Church 6:546). For what it’s worth, Edward Tullidge reported that the reason Joseph wanted Hyrum to live was “to lead the Church,” not “to avenge my blood” (see note in HoC 6:546).
- While in hiding, Joseph and Hyrum were trying to decide whether they should flee or turn themselves in. History of the Church 6:549 records the following: “Joseph … said, ‘Brother Hyrum, you are the oldest, what shall we do?’ Hyrum said, ‘Let us go back and give ourselves up, and see the thing out.’ After studying a few moments, Joseph said, ‘If you go back I will go with you, but we shall be butchered.’ Hyrum said, ‘No, no; let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed. The Lord is in it. If we live or have to die, we will be reconciled to our fate.’”
- “I know what I say; I understand my mission and business. God Almighty is my shield; and what can man do if God is my friend? I shall not be sacrificed until my time comes; then I shall be offered freely” (History of the Church 5:259).
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David: / davidesnell
Ex member of the church but I keep an open mind, I like how this channel wants all the smoke 💨 and addresses issues head on. Thought I don’t agree with their theology I respect ✊🏽 it
Thanks for the respect! It is reciprocated.
Agreed, good-faith discussions need to be encouraged including/especially by those who disagree, like I do.
So grateful for this channel and all the work y’all do at saints unscripted. Please never stop ❤️🙏
Another really great episode for the books! The quality and quantity of content on this channel is just amazing. Keep it up!
Your video shows it but it wasn't brought out that Joseph knew he would be killed, and he knew the Church was going to end up in the Rocky Mountains, so he actually crossed the Mississippi into Iowa and was going to head west. But Emma persuaded him to come back. So yes he willingly gave his life for his religion and his people. He knew that by dying he would save his people from some suffering. As a father of young children and having a pregnant wife, he didn’t want to die, i think it was valiant that he tried to fight back and live. But yet he knew his fate and accepted it. With the endowment and sealings and Relief Society, he had restored everything, so his mission was complete.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Hebrews 9.
Joseph was a Prophet and a Testator
Thank you. I have been waiting for this exact video
Very nuanced, balanced, and intellectually rigorous perspective!
I know this isn't a central issue by any stretch, but I found this to be one of your best videos!
Keep it up!
Answering the hard questions is what helps members and non members strengthen their faith.
We believe that all may worship, how where and what they may.
nice vid man, once again thank you!
Great discussion David love this podcast
Another fantastic video! thank you!
He was Assassinated or martyred plain and simple
how about both ;)
Do you have any thoughts or enlightening perspectives for Joseph's Happiness letter?
It might help to know what the 1840’s dictionary defines ‘martyrdom’ as. It might not make too much a difference and John Taylor is still the one writing down the obituary/D&C section, but sometimes it helps to know what they mean cuz what we understand the word to mean could be different from what they meant it to mean.
Good point! Here's the whole entry from Webster's 1828 dictionary:
-----------------------------------
M'ARTYR, noun [Gr. a witness.] One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel. Stephen was the first christian martyr
To be a martyr signifies only to witness the truth of Christ.
1. One who suffers death in defense of any cause. We say, a man dies a martyr to his political principles or to the cause of liberty.
M'ARTYR, verb transitive To put to death for adhering to what one believes to be the truth; to sacrifice one on account of his faith or profession.
1. To murder; to destroy.
Thanks, as always, for a comprehensive, concise, and respectful response to the critics.
The murderers denied him his legal right to a trial.
Can you do an episode on the Deutero-Isaiah versus please?
The deutero isaiah stuff cracks me up. So easily debunked, I love it
Joseph Smith WAS a martyr. He knew what was coming, even if he hoped otherwise. Some say he couldn't be a martyr...that a martyr would not fight back. Hope is not a sin.
4:48 "let's uh, let's talk about this, Joseph . . . "
LOL
Hey David.
Can you interview Benjamin E. Park, author of American Zion: A New History of Mormonism?
Christ was the only perfect man without sin..he carried his own cross to his death and was crucified he didn't fight them..i do believe that Joseph went to Carthage to save his people from more harm and death but i know he didn't want to die i know Jesus didn't want to die..i think he did try to make a last effort to evade and live which i dont blame him i mean i would have too..i dont know where i stand on this really...i think he certainly taught things right the churches were wrong on
With all of the ways that the saints were neglected and abused by the federal government and the Ohio, Illinois and Missouri state governments were…Joseph smith was a martyr and hundreds if not thousands of other saints during that era were martyrs as well.
❤
Joseph is a martyr, but I don't think there is a difference between a willing and an unwilling martyr. Smith and those you mention from Fox's book of Martyrs I don't see at the same level as the examples the apostles set. The apostles set an example of seeing others as better than themselves and when you make attempts to kill your attackers clearly you care for your own life more than their own. I realize that's an extremely high standard but it's a standard I expect someone who could be rightfully called a prophet of God to fit. Seeing others as better than yourselves is the Christian example, Philippians 2.
So if I'm understanding correctly, a true prophet of God doesn't fight back, because he values the lives of others (even those trying to murder him) more than his own life. And if someone were to resist being killed, that man can't be a prophet, because he's being selfish? I'm curious what you make of the prophet Elijah, who had 450 priests of Baal put to death. Would that disqualify him from being a prophet? If not, I'd love to know why you feel his case is different.
@@davidsnell2605 Paul himself said, "Consider others better than yourselves". There is a vast difference between resisting being killed and making a real effort to kill others. I hope you can see that.
"So if I'm understanding correctly, a true prophet of God doesn't fight back, because he values the lives of others (even those trying to murder him) more than his own life." Yes, the road to following 'Christ bid you come and die' as Christian Martyr Dietrich Bonhoeffer would say. While Smith's motto in that moment seemed less 'come and die' but come and kill'. It's a hard road, but those who lead will be judged more harshly, I expect a prophet to fit a higher bar. Smith just frankly doesn't give me thoughts of a prophet with his actions.
A judge like that of Gideon or Samson but not a Prophet like Elijah, Elisha, or Samuel.
Elijah was commanded by God to bring judgment on those people because they were literally leading others to worship a God and give child sacrifices to him. Was Smith bringing judgment? No, he was trying to protect his own skin. Were the people he tried to kill priests of an idol leading people away from God?
@@BeardedDisciple "There is a vast difference between resisting being killed and making a real effort to kill others." Sometimes, sure. But there is also a vast difference between killing in self-defense and murdering someone. The only reason Joseph was trying to harm anyone was because they were trying to harm him and his friends. Doesn't scripture also teach that greater love hath no man than he that giveth his life for his friends? Joseph only started firing his weapon after his brother was shot and killed in front of him. Should he really have just let the same thing happen to John Taylor and Willard Richards (who were there as friends, not prisoners)?
Could you direct me to the verses where Elijah is commanded by God to slaughter the priests of Baal as judgment? I'm not seeing that command anywhere in the text.
You're certainly entitled to believe however you best see fit. On this one we may just have to agree to disagree.
I am a Latter-day Saint and I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and a martyr.
I was an LDS missionary, MTC trainer, conference interpreter, and priesthood leader, and I have no doubt in my mind that Joseph Smith was a deceiver with no divine legitimacy.
@@brcaldwellableSorry to hear of how far you've fallen.
@@Draegoron Have to follow my conscience, but I’m glad there are many kinds of people.
It's still tricky for me to say. Why were Peter and the others killed? Because of what they were preaching. Why was Joseph killed? For political reasons. He was preaching baptism to freed slaves, then he was running as president to free slaves and right the wrongs done in Missouri. So they had him killed to avoid political justice more so than the fact he was preaching the kingdom.
But why was he running for president? Religious reasons. So I'm still uncertain to call him a martyr. Definitely murdered though.
I don't see any problem with calling him a martyr. As per the video, there are several definitions of the word that included death for either religious OR political reasons. If you go with one of those definitions, then the question of whether he was killed for religious or political reasons is moot, because both motivations qualify. This question only becomes relevant if you restrict yourself to a more narrow definition of the term "martyr," but even then, as you mention and as the video mentions, there is pretty straightforward and clear evidence that Joseph was killed at least in part for his religious convictions. The governor acknowledged it. We have the report that even one of Joseph's murderers brought up Joseph's religious convictions (plural marriage) even as he stood over his dying body at Carthage. Any way you slice it, it seems to me that Joseph's totally qualifies.
@@davidsnell2605 I usually comment, then watch the video. You've changed my mind and shifted my paradigm 😁
He was NOT a Martyr. He was MURDERED. He didn't willfully consed.
In the future: please don’t advertise for companies in passing you’re not sponsored by , even if the joke is quite good! The exception is for a company like In N Out burger, who is known to be a Christian restaurant that overpays their workers and underprices things. They take on no debt and are a great sinless chain who never closed a store until one recently closed in Oakland
If you want to make a Mikky joke, find a way to speak around the meme in a colloquial way “a yellow store with Golden Arches” or something like that if you are loving on it. Some people will pick up on it and others won’t, but you won’t be associated with them at all with no name drop
Utchdorf made a joke that exalted a company we weren’t sponsored by, and while it was funny in the immediate short term, it left me with a dry and tasteless feeling in my stomach over the long run
I know it seems like such a small venial sin, but it’s incredibly likely that Jesus would refrain from plugging an advertisement of a company that was worldly or wicked like coco puffs
There are different levels of free speech, and this channel is under “righteous speech”, meaning a venial sin for someone else, is a massive mortal sin here
With the dozens of hours of editing, I’m not sure how you missed it!
The joke was good, don’t get me wrong, but in my opinion, it’s not worth it
@EricLDS (apparently I’m subbed on this channel too)
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that it was sinful of us to make a Coco Puffs reference in this video?
@@davidsnell2605 a VERY small sin (missing the mark)
not a religious/spiritual sin, but a "sin" as in, something I did knot like very much
@@DynamicGracer has Coco Puffs done something bad that I should be aware of?
@@davidsnell2605 Hey David, love the channel, I just wanted to say I have been called to run for Vice President 2058 USA 🇺🇸
It’s a wild calling, but God wants me to do it I think
I am LDS, and likely won’t take the Melchizedek Priesthood until I’m older , so they can’t do what they did to Romney, saying he sold his soul to the church ⛪️
I am working on my speaking skills now, and I have already done a talk at church, which was terrifying at first
I think the world will need me then, and I have already started my own church ⛪️ called “The Church of Teenage Jesus Christ”, which is growing at a rapid pace
I could use your prayers
I am bi-polar; so my high ends dream really really really big
Most people aren’t capable of dreaming like I am at my age
I got the confirmation in a dream just now, Matthew 22:38; the manifestation of the second greatest commandment
I may run for president, but won’t swear an oath on the Bible (right?)
What do you think of the president taking an oath of office btw? Is that against Matthew 5:33-37?
Thanks again for your prayers and response
Mormons
Excellent comment! You absolutely added to the discussion!
@@sunlight-sky151 haha, I'm just messin bro! I'm a member of the church too 😂😂 I just wanted to see if some antis would jump on this comment
Is it really justifiable to call this channel a producer of half decent content?
................................................... yes?
The reason I believe he is a martyr, especially in this case, is people don’t just kill people who are in jail. Even back then. The Nauvoo expositor is just what I got him in jail specifically this time but he got killed definitely for promoting religion people were sick of!
Why not? He was killed because of his faith wasn't he?
“As always you can have your own opinion,”
Even if that opinion is not aligned with reality in the slightest, it is true people can believe whatever they like.
That doesn’t mean I have to accept their beliefs just as much as they refuse to accept mine.
Couldn’t agree more.
I am a Latter-day Saint and I know Joseph Smith was a martyr and prophet of God.
@@latter-daysaintbatman2679 agreed
@@latter-daysaintbatman2679 amen