Did Joseph Smith think he was better than Jesus? | Ep. 208
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2023
- Every once in a while, Latter-day Saints run across the criticism that the prophet Joseph Smith was an arrogant and boastful man who thought he was better than Jesus Himself. Is it true? Did Joseph really believe that? Let’s talk about it.
Video transcript: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
Recommended reading:
- “Rough Stone Rolling,” by Richard Bushman.
- “Know Brother Joseph: New Perspectives on Joseph Smith's Life & Character,” by various authors, including Matthew Godfrey, Matthew Grow, & R. Eric Smith.
- “The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith,” edited & compiled by Dean Jessee
- “Joseph: Exploring the Life and Ministry of the Prophet,” by Susan E. Black & Andrew Skinner
- “Joseph Smith: The Prophet and Seer,” by Richard Holzapfel & Kent Jackson
- “History, 1838-1856, volume F-1 [1 May 1844-8 August 1844]” via the Joseph Smith Papers Project: bit.ly/3oVhAL8
- “Discourse, 26 May 1844, as Compiled by Leo Hawkins,” via the Joseph Smith Papers Project: bit.ly/3NkTym6
- The quote as it appears in “History of the Church,” 6:408: bit.ly/3Ck6UZu
- “Joseph Smith wasn’t arrogant or boastful,” by Dan Peterson in the Deseret News: bit.ly/3MZTyqa
Notes:
- Here are a couple of Joseph’s more humble quotes (included in the video):
- “...there was one good man, and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else. … I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.” byustudies.byu.edu/online-cha...
- "I will try to be contented with my lot, knowing that God is my friend. In him I shall find comfort. I have given my life into his hands. I am prepared to go at his call. I desire to be with Christ. I count not my life dear to me (except) to do his will.” Letter to Emma Smith on June 6, 1832, from Greenville, Indiana: www.josephsmithpapers.org/pap...
- In 1823 an angel named Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith. He told Joseph, among many other things, that Joseph’s “... name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.” That has certainly turned out to be the case.
- As Paul continues his talk about boasting in the next chapter (2 Corinthians 12), we read, “That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” This sounds similar to what Joseph says in his sermon: “I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions … The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution.”
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When you initially read the passage, I thought of Ammon's "boasting" in Alma 26 when Ammon is describing their great success in organizing the church among the Lamanites. I could see Joseph's words as something similar. He's describing a great blessing of being a Latter-day prophet in the last days. It's certainly fortunate that there will be no second apostasy, and boasting in the Lord's goodness for that wouldn't be off base.
That's just one thought I had. Great video as always!
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
As always, your production value never ceases to impress! :}
Thank you!
Context always matters. Of course Joseph was jousting with Paul here. Some in the crowd were likely laughing a little bit when he said this section, if he even really said it in first person.
As a non-LDS who came this way through the Hello Saints channel, I've encountered that quotation before and definitely held it against the LDS Church; if taken at face value, it would be a huge "red flag" for most "evangelicals."
I like your point that it was written down later by some of his followers, and the rhetorical context is definitely worth exploring more. I'd actually be willing to read the entire message (as it has come down to us) with that lens in mind.
If God judged me by the worst things I have said, he can definitely find worse than that😂
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
@@gloriashalom795MY GOD! 🥺 Sister… Nooo. 😔
@@deswilliams-mcpherson You might want to pray about that.
@@eveadame1059 That Joseph Smith WAS Jesus???
Are you saying you are a prophet? Is an entire faith, church, world-wide community based on your claims?
I think there is a danger with church members today placing Joseph Smith on a pedestal. Sometimes people in the church will talk more about Joseph Smith than Jesus Christ. This occurs far more with Joseph Smith than with any other prophet. We have to remember that Joseph Smith was a normal man with human failings who was called of God as a prophet. Jesus Christ is the leader of the church and the son of God.
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
@@gloriashalom795Stop preaching false doctrine, please.
YOU ARE CRAZY! What is the name of the church? Who do we pray to?
And I want to let you know that I completely agree with what you are talking about, did Joseph Smith restore the church? yes.
Did he die so that mankind may have a way to return to our heavenly Father? no.
Did he sacrifice himself on the cross? no
And did he choose to be our savior in the premortal existence so that we may come down, get a body and still have free agency? No
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Not Joseph Smith
Is it important to understand his role in restoring the church? absolutely. But we have to have our hearts and minds on the savior because he is the one that saved us.
A few things to consider for everyone who is more for a equitable apporach.
1. Joseph Smith did not write the quotation himself, but instead it was reconstructed after his death, which was about a month later, meaning, we do not know for certainity that this is excatcly what he actually said. Even “History of the Church” (often called the “Documentary History”) says that it rests upon a "synopsis" by Thomas Bullock.No. Entries in the “History of the Church” for at least his last five years were actually made by others, after his assassination.
2. Dean Jessee's preface to his collection of “The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith” specifically addresses the seeming egotism that entered into Joseph's later statements, all of which he could never verify or edit himself - "an attitude quite foreign to the historical man himself. He didn’t suddenly become egotistical; the later voice is no longer his: it’s the work of disciples who felt comfortable “praising” Joseph, after his death, in ways he might not have endorsed."
In fact Joseph had no issue at all with other people having received prophecies, he welcomed it as did Moses , when he exclaimed that he wished all were Prophets.
3. The context in which Joseph Smith made that statement, was in reference to a passage from the Apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 11-12), applying "Pauls boasting" to his own perilous situation.
4. Though speculative, the statement can also be be understood as a compliment to the saints, though I have no interest in bending things to fit my own dogma, so it remains speculation.
5. But what does not remain speculation are first hand acounts of Joseph, where he stated something like this:
“I do not think there have been many good men on the earth since the days of Adam; but there was one good man and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else. … I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.”
All of that being said, I think that as any serious seeker of truth, we should allow for "in doubt for the accused", and look at it from it's genral context, instead of merely judging it from a rather one-sided, accusatory perspective.
Without doubt, Joseph Smith was not a perfect man, and he never claimed such, rather the opposite, but even with people we disagree with, we should still be fair enough to take things for what they are, and don't leave out vital things such as that phrase being a second hand reconstruction of something Joseph may have meant quite differently.
Very good. I have thought this. Joseph in Nauvoo was living under continual death threats. Not just to himself but to all the Mormons. This bragging may have been a release in response to the evil he was facing.
Prophets don't release publicly. They have the HOLY SPIRT which speaks through them. Boasting like Joseph does in this instance is quite arrogant. A servant of Christ is humble and denies himself/herself, because that is what Jesus told us to do. Matthew 11: 29: " Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls." Luke 14:7 says: "For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted" Also Philippians 2:7 "but (He) emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. "
I think he was trying to convey that he was restoring the kingdom of God that would never be taken from the Earth again. Maybe it just came out wrong. It has happened to me many times.
Nice run down. Context is always super helpful!
And I am with you, one comment that sounds *really* not great doesn't make everything else dissappear. And I sure hope I can be forgiven for my bad takes too.
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
Love this channel!!! -Philippines
What movie was that last clip of Joseph from? 5:37
Joseph Smith: American Prophet (2017)
I enjoyed this video! Do you think you could maybe do an episode about the hymn “Praise to the Man” I know it’s kind of controversial, but I think it’s important to add context to something that may seem a bit confusing/ questionable :)
In another sense, there's nothing wrong with what Joseph said. By this time he had been leader of a church for 14:years. Christ "died" with barely any organized "church" after a very short time. So while "I've held together a church longer than Jesus" is tacky, is it incorrect?
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
@@gloriashalom795no
Great video! Love your work
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
Glad you liked the video!
I'm so glad you made a video on this topic because I literally read this criticism in the comment section on RUclips
I read a book "The Top Ten Cults in America". This author was honest enough to cite his sources. It read that Joseph said he was better than Christ.... I said "NO WAY." So I looked up the source in Church History, it read 'I am better than Christ in that my friends do stand by me.'
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
Yeah, Joseph was actually only bragging about his friends/the Latter-day saints, it's pretty clear when people actually read what was said.
@@gloriashalom795 what are you talking about?
@@gloriashalom795 YES! YES! I fully agree, that Joseph Smith was actually YESHUA🌹🌿
Means,, his situation was better than Christ's was. He's in no way saying he himself is better than Christ. But in the end we know that there were some of the saints that did turn on joseph so that statement much have been written earlier.
One aspect that I have mentioned before when discussing this specific quote is tone of voice.
As humans we communicate in so many different ways and the same sentence said in a different tone of voice or with different vocal inflections and emphasis changes the entire meaning of that sentence.
For example if I were to say
“Man, Good job that was an amazing video.” From my words alone it could be interpreted that I really enjoyed it, but if I add certain inflections and emphasis vocally, saying it in a way that sounds condescending and sarcastic it would mean the exact opposite.
We completely lack that very important context to this statement. We only have the words and not the tone or vocal emphasis he used. So to argue that this is proof that Joseph was extremely narcissistic and prideful is, in my opinion, a shallow attempt to slander him and try to discredit and disgrace him and the church.
I agree with your opening point, if this is the best example you can give me of why Joseph smith was a bad person, I’ll take it. He messed up, find me someone who hasn’t, (aside from the savior obviously).
I’m willing to accept that he was prideful in that moment and still accepted him as a prophet. Why would I want to throw out all the amazing blessing I have received just because the man who helped guide me there made a mistake?
Beautiful video David!!! I'ma miss you on my mission!!!
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
@@gloriashalom795 Good ol' Joseph was an amazing prophet and I'm confident I'll (hopefully) get to see him and personally thank him for his devotion at the first resurrection...but if my understanding is correct and "Yeshua" means "Jesus", then my friend I am sorry to say, Joseph Smith was most definitely not Jesus 🤣
Thank you, and best of luck on your mission! You might consider looking up our page on Facebook to use while on your mission.
@@SaintsUnscripted absolutely I will! not sure which member of the lovely group I'm talking too here but I have chatted (briefly) with David on fb once and will definitely be taking up his and now your offer. Thanks again!
I think boasting in your god like ammon did when they had so many sheaves was a lot more like the spirit of Joseph Smith boasting.
I thank God that I have a testimony of Joseph Smith from the Holy Ghost himself.
I would add to your book suggestions The Lost 116 Pages by Don Bradley.
That is a great book!
Also it is important to consider John 14:12.
Hey David.
Hey Ryan!
How is it even possible when Joseph was a prophet and Chrat is THE SAVIOS, REDEEMER, GUIDE, CO-CREATOR OF THE WORLD, AUTHOR OF RESURRECTION. Whoever said that was an enemy to the church and the truth and we should not even pay attention to their accusations. The gospel ,The church ti all belongs to Christ. We pray to the father and end every prayer in HIS NAME. EVEN THE LORD OF LORD THE KING OF KINGS.. JESUS CHRIST!
Joesph Smith was a Prophet of God -- but a imperfect man -- as we all are.
I consider myself a critic of the LDS church. I try to hear the LDS perspective before coming to conclusions (and I probably throw out 45% of my arguments when I do so).
That said, I'm making a video right now using this claim. I think it's so bad that it should cause all Mormons to flee from Joseph Smith.
Was this sinful? No doubt.
Were the prophets/apostles sinful? No doubt.
So what's the difference? While the actions of the apostles/prophets were immoral, their *teachings* never were.
With Mormon "prophets," there are countless wicked, evil, horrible, awful teachings.
Although I disagree, this video is well done, and I appreciate you taking this head on. I pray for God to open your eyes, leave the Mormon faith, and embrace true Christianity.
I agree with you 1000%. I care about the LDS people. There are some really good, genuine, loyal people in the LDS church. But they can't see how misguided and deceived they are. It's heartbreaking.
Are you a member of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints?
Yep 😊
@@SaintsUnscripted me too 😁
I am avidly interested in rhetoric; I read speeches and try to understand the sssence of their eloquence, and I seem to have a talent for it, at least if you listen to those who hear my talks, to whom I will leave it to judge. I've read this speech, but not thoroughly, so I did not quite make the connection before seeing lit like this. From my experience, I'm seeing the real possibility that there is some meaning lost because we are not there. Perhaps, using Paul as a starter, he's carrying something that has been lost to time (that he and the audience took for granted) to an absurdity to show how absurd it is, rather than using reason...That, too, is a rhetorical device that we often see in mathematics, when the assertion to be proved is negated in order to show how that negation leads to a contradiction...
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
4:53 “ever any man had”…. jesus was not a full man. He was God and man. So he’s not making the point that he was better than Jesus. Seriously, this one is easy…
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua, the Alpha and Omega at the first resurrection.
@@gloriashalom795 whut?
@@gloriashalom795 What are you saying? Yeshua is Jesus Christ.
This quote is of questionable origin and it doesn't really sound like Joseph. Even if Smith said something like this, I don't think it was this. Moses got into trouble by equating himself with God when he said, “Must we fetch water for you...?” And it got him into some hot water. He wasn't able to lead his people into the promised land because of it.
Smith also wasn't permitted to lead the saints into the West, but I don't think it had anything to do with what he said. In both his and Moses’ case, it would have been anticlimactic.
And what does the Bible say about. Sorry but I read that and he was yelling. He was killed for all his bad doings just as he deserved.
Doctrine and Covenants 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!
back to the future!
If I ever become a prophet, when I’m dead, they’ll pull up apple iPhone data and quote the nonsense I’ve been saying out loud on the toilet 🤣. Cancelled!!! Nah, just kidding. Give the guy a break, man.
So true! Even seeing my Facebook posts from 10 years ago is very cringy. I hope we can just cut each other a little more slack.
No Joseph Smith never said that or at least he might’ve gotten carried away. However he still was a prophet of God. Many who assume Joseph Smith was boasting that he was better than Jesus are liars.
Is this a JW or LDS channel
This channel is about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Perhaps, But than Jesus...like actual Jesus, *Exhales.
0:10 I gotta say, when making this video, I began laughing outloud at the unfortunate but comical irony when I realized that both Joseph and Jesus are played by the same man in this shot.
This epi was like performing surgery on the wrong organ or hanging someone for the egg instead of the dragon. No need to scrounge up spurious critiques to refute when there is plenty of legitimately terrible material from church history to analyse.
Joseph Smith was actually Yeshua the Alpha and Omega, at the first resurrection.
What?
@@Calvin_Barnes The obvious... That Joseph Smith was Actually Yeshua 🌹🌿
Completely and utterly impossible, the First Vision alone disproves that, with many other events disproving that.
What Joseph Smith said was factually correct. The early Mormons stood by him. The majority of Israel rejected Christ which is still true today sadly. So what is the real criticism, the phrasing? Very petty criticism IMO
Sorry, but it's your apologetic opinion versus fact.
Buddy, we're talking about the words of a religious figure here. There's nothing besides opinions that could ever be contributed to the conversation.
It was a fact how Smith used Pauls boasting as his basis for the sermon and it also is a fact that he only boasted of himself in Pauline manner, that he was able to hold the church longer than previous prophets and that he was not forsaken like Jesus was. That is a fact. He did not make himself to be greater than Jesus, a fact he repeats all throughout his life.
Jesus doesn't look as handsome as the photos portray indicating that Jesus new life was actually Joseph smith.