This is what I am learning in Psychology Class right now. I have to try to focus on the Class and learn without spiraling remember all my Trauma. I am healed but it causes memories to come and go. I don’t allow myself to get stuck there. It all makes sense and I am proud of myself for making it through. The Narc father tried so hard to stop me from fulfilling my purpose and he failed! 🙌
Learning more learning more about narcissists makes one sympathize with them, even though we are aware that they cannot be fixed and all the warnings (no contact / grey stone) are taken into account.
I never thought about the brain development piece in regards to children and being subjected to complex thought processes that their brains may not even be capable of yet. You mention, essentially, a certain type of time perception, combined with delayed gratification and needing to sort of predict the future without knowing what the outcome will be. My parents were intermittent AF, like, very inconsistent with me specifically. less so with my older brother because he didn't need as much support as I did but I acted out more and became severely depressed and suicidal around 11 or 12 years old and so I think the burden I put on them when I asked for help with that stuff, made them secretly (maybe not so secretly, I may just have been used to them randomly taking away things/rewards I was promised if I completed certain goals or grades or achievements, etc) resent me. I never knew what a punishment would be for example if I didn't get straight A's on my report cards. For example: I was always in Advanced classes, with language arts being my strongest subject. My 7th grade year, (the year I started self harming and just was severely depressed and suicidal ideation etc) I got a B- in my AP Language Arts class (mostly due to not completing homework) and I'm when my parents got the report card, they both sat on one side of the kitchen table, and I say alone on the other side, and I felt like they tore me apart. They didn't probably, but they told me how disappointed they were, rhetorically asked how I did so poorly and then told me all the things I would lose access to, none of which were ever previously mentioned as even potential consequences. They took my phone access away (this was before cell phones mostly so it was home phone access), so no calling friends, no going to friends houses or having friends over, no radio or music in my room or otherwise, no lock on my bedroom door anymore, no Internet access and no television. I was so fucking angry and humiliated and yeah. Just pissed. That I stared at the kitchen table the entire time, biting the insides of my cheeks so I wouldn't cry. I told them I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of upsetting me over something so small, despite then taking everything from me that meant anything as a 12 year old. There was also no time limit on these restrictions and rewards or exceptions to these struct rules were sporadically thrown to me if I did as I was told. But we're often (seemingly) randomly taken away on pretenses or rules in place that I didn't know existed prior to breaking them. So for example I would be allowed to go over to a friend's slumber party because I'd been good lately, but I would not do something on time that I was unaware had a time limit or expected outcome from me and the opportunity of the slumber party would be taken away. I stopped crying that year and started self harming. I literally couldn't cry until I started practicing in my mid 20s. And I had to be drunk at first. It took me years to be able to allow myself to naturally cry again after that stupid B- report card shit. Yeah that felt unfair. They hated me sometimes it felt like. They did stuff like that a lot.
It seems that your excellence in language arts may have been difficient in one area anyway, sentence structure. Perhaps they failed to educate about run-on sentences?
@@joemendiuk perhaps that wasn't the point of my comment lol. If this were a school assignment I would have taken more time to perfect it. But I was just trying to get my thoughts out. What was your point of commenting it other than the fact that you just felt like being a dick? Carry on now. Perhaps get a hobby that improves your life rather than one that mildly jabs at random stranger's self esteem lol
@@fredkleuver5947 thank you so much. You pulled some things from my comment that I didn't even consciously connect, yet you are correct in your mention of them. Such as getting rid of or destroying things I cared about so I could control the outcome, as well as what lead me to thinking there is something inherently wrong with me because I was being reinforced one way or another due to their emotions or resentments as opposed to tangible or logical successes, failures, rules or expectations. I never pieced together that that may be the reason why I started to feel worthless. Because yes, it was always something I was doing but it was rarely, if ever, clear or stated to me at all. I remember my mom telling me when she was drunk one night when I was 16 how love is always conditional and how unconditional love doesn't exist. She said it like scoffing at me. Because she said it in response to me pondering the idea that unconditional love may not exist and she confirmed that by acting as if I were ridiculous for even thinking that it did! Anyways, thank you for your comment. It was validating and a relief (however small or intangible of one, a relief nonetheless??) to read words from another human that they had a similar response to the same kind of unpredictable, spiteful, selfish parenting style. I'm sorry that you had the same disorienting, untethered experience of that though. It really sucks not knowing what to do or what not to do. I started just doing what I wanted cuz sometimes I'd get in trouble and sometimes they wouldn't really care too much. Most of my relationships or interactions revolve around me "mind reading" people's emotional state, the reason behind it and then attempting to improve it, somehow via observational deductions in their perceived emotional responses to whatever I would say or do. I still do this. I still do this even if someone literally tells me exactly what their boundaries are. I will continue to cross them if they seem amiable or mostly okay after I push a button or boundary. I hope I can become more present and aware and do more active listening so I can lessen that instinct/automatic behavior of mine. Being disrespectful because it doesn't immediately change someone's demeanor isn't okay. Yet their demeanor is all I pay attention to. Blablabla I am rambling now. I digress. Thank you for a thoughtful reply to my comment 🥰💯🫂
@@joemendiukTry not to be a classless, cold, heartless A-hole in life. I sure hope that you’re Schizoid, because you really should sequester yourself away from others, for your own sake , and for the good of the rest of society. And if you aren’t, you should consider having zero relationships, from this day forward.
After generations of conditioning that produces narcissism, I wonder if genetics of this sort eventually evolve. The narc family I was acquainted with was native to their region; their ancestry had been around for 300 yrs. Relatives, past and present have histories of psychological issues, some resulting in incarceration, mental facilities and home isolation.
My husband’s entire family on both sides are narcissistic and he even has tendencies. The people in his town are a mixed bag of narcissistic people and some normal, so I think maybe it's an adaptation to the environment you're in. If my husband acts like a narcissistic idiot I stand up for myself and tell him to get lost and he will apologize to me. I think because he’s not a true narc, he can see how his actions hurt others. He's improved a lot but there's a ways to go.
@@belle8i the narc I knew always smiled if I said something like “get lost”. It seemed like they thrived on arguing, insults and name calling. After a while they’d all go to their corners until the next “session”. The 60 yr old man’s mother would end phone convos with “mummy loves you”.
This is fascinating malevolent psychology it reminds me of watching videos of how farmers beat cows to submission out of not love but malevolence like malevolent played by Angelina jolie in The film malevolent
Dr. Sam, Question. If the person with apparent narcissistic behaviors (not officially diagnosed) was conditioned starting in childhood, can they be unconditioned or reconditioned away from this behaviour?
I recently had a terrific incident with NPD most likely ASPD but this person was trying to condition me into his fantasy and he started labelling every move i did as ''maculine''or ''feminine''. This individual sensed my self esteem he all of a sudden wanted to be a father figure at the same time was degrading everything about me. He said being logical is too ''masculine''. I started to have existential crisis and depersonalization/derealisation because I had crush on this person big time. He asked me if ''I was already in love with him'', I said ''not yet''. He decided to degrade me even more and tried to use Classical and intermittent conditioning. For weeks, I felt like there is something wrong with me and I felt like I wasn't enough in a very self destructive way because I tried to seek truth in his words because he put himself as an authority figure infront of me. Prof. Sam How would i assess this situation? Should I just dissapear completely?
So if you want the narcissist to love you in every sensible word, you gotta be an absolute bastard to them but then they’re expressing their love to you by being the same am I right?😂
They def won’t run away if you treat them terribly…… but also yes, narcissists are always going to make your life miserable. …. With intermittent good acts. (the intermittent good acts is what can cause addiction to them)
I know this likely hasn't been explored enough, in a clinical setting, to have a definitive answer, however I am wondering about your personal thoughts or professional opinion (if applicable) on psychedelic substances aiding with malleability as far as something like behavioral modification therapy? Do you think substances or compounds (or whatever, such as MDMA, psilocybin or DMT) have potential in making more permanent progress or progress in general, like in the case with psychopathy or personality disorders, in rewiring the brain in a more vulnerable or malleable state? You talk about neuroplasticity and the conditioning that result in personality disorders having to do, largely in part with the stage in brain development in which abuse occurs (As well as the strong suggestive/supporting evidence of the genetic/hereditary predisposition). So my question is, do you personally or professionally think there could be clinical implications in regards to psychoactive drugs or substances that could positively assist in CBT or the like? DMT for example leaves one very disoriented and vulnerable, the 5 senses all blur together and disappear at the same time as far as surface experience goes but there are things happening in the brain during use as well that have my curiosity in the possibility of real change if different strategic therapies were administered while the patient were using it.
hi sarah, your story is sad. Seems like your parents could have used some coping skills. Do you have contact with them today? Just curious. Im 46 and not until June of last year did I know what a narcissist is.... and I'm still living with him today...
The question of possible genetic predispositions is fascinating. I believe this is one of the core aspects of the genesis of NPD. Is there even a methodology on the subject that could serve as a basis for conducting research? What are the foundations of the genetic predisposition hypotheses?
Why would a parent use intermittent reinforcement? Unintentionally or intentionally? I think my mom did it on purpose and my dad did it unintentionally
This is what I am learning in Psychology Class right now. I have to try to focus on the Class and learn without spiraling remember all my Trauma.
I am healed but it causes memories to come and go.
I don’t allow myself to get stuck there.
It all makes sense and I am proud of myself for making it through.
The Narc father tried so hard to stop me from fulfilling my purpose and he failed! 🙌
❤🎉
This is very profound. I am hooked. I have to understand this condition since I've tried and failed for 20 years to connect with my two children.
Thank you, prof. Vaknin! Your lectures are precious!
This is such a gift.
Sir, you have taught me so much about human behavior over the past year. Thank you.
Learning more learning more about narcissists makes one sympathize with them, even though we are aware that they cannot be fixed and all the warnings (no contact / grey stone) are taken into account.
Thanks Professor, much appreciated
This is absolutely amazing and mind opening. Wow.
No. I don't have empathy for a narcissist. They know on some level what they do is not ok.
You're closer to them than you think
I never thought about the brain development piece in regards to children and being subjected to complex thought processes that their brains may not even be capable of yet. You mention, essentially, a certain type of time perception, combined with delayed gratification and needing to sort of predict the future without knowing what the outcome will be.
My parents were intermittent AF, like, very inconsistent with me specifically. less so with my older brother because he didn't need as much support as I did but I acted out more and became severely depressed and suicidal around 11 or 12 years old and so I think the burden I put on them when I asked for help with that stuff, made them secretly (maybe not so secretly, I may just have been used to them randomly taking away things/rewards I was promised if I completed certain goals or grades or achievements, etc) resent me.
I never knew what a punishment would be for example if I didn't get straight A's on my report cards. For example: I was always in Advanced classes, with language arts being my strongest subject. My 7th grade year, (the year I started self harming and just was severely depressed and suicidal ideation etc) I got a B- in my AP Language Arts class (mostly due to not completing homework) and I'm when my parents got the report card, they both sat on one side of the kitchen table, and I say alone on the other side, and I felt like they tore me apart. They didn't probably, but they told me how disappointed they were, rhetorically asked how I did so poorly and then told me all the things I would lose access to, none of which were ever previously mentioned as even potential consequences. They took my phone access away (this was before cell phones mostly so it was home phone access), so no calling friends, no going to friends houses or having friends over, no radio or music in my room or otherwise, no lock on my bedroom door anymore, no Internet access and no television.
I was so fucking angry and humiliated and yeah. Just pissed. That I stared at the kitchen table the entire time, biting the insides of my cheeks so I wouldn't cry. I told them I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of upsetting me over something so small, despite then taking everything from me that meant anything as a 12 year old. There was also no time limit on these restrictions and rewards or exceptions to these struct rules were sporadically thrown to me if I did as I was told. But we're often (seemingly) randomly taken away on pretenses or rules in place that I didn't know existed prior to breaking them. So for example I would be allowed to go over to a friend's slumber party because I'd been good lately, but I would not do something on time that I was unaware had a time limit or expected outcome from me and the opportunity of the slumber party would be taken away.
I stopped crying that year and started self harming. I literally couldn't cry until I started practicing in my mid 20s. And I had to be drunk at first. It took me years to be able to allow myself to naturally cry again after that stupid B- report card shit.
Yeah that felt unfair. They hated me sometimes it felt like. They did stuff like that a lot.
It seems that your excellence in language arts may have been difficient in one area anyway, sentence structure. Perhaps they failed to educate about run-on sentences?
@@joemendiuk perhaps that wasn't the point of my comment lol. If this were a school assignment I would have taken more time to perfect it. But I was just trying to get my thoughts out. What was your point of commenting it other than the fact that you just felt like being a dick? Carry on now. Perhaps get a hobby that improves your life rather than one that mildly jabs at random stranger's self esteem lol
@@fredkleuver5947 thank you so much. You pulled some things from my comment that I didn't even consciously connect, yet you are correct in your mention of them. Such as getting rid of or destroying things I cared about so I could control the outcome, as well as what lead me to thinking there is something inherently wrong with me because I was being reinforced one way or another due to their emotions or resentments as opposed to tangible or logical successes, failures, rules or expectations.
I never pieced together that that may be the reason why I started to feel worthless. Because yes, it was always something I was doing but it was rarely, if ever, clear or stated to me at all.
I remember my mom telling me when she was drunk one night when I was 16 how love is always conditional and how unconditional love doesn't exist. She said it like scoffing at me. Because she said it in response to me pondering the idea that unconditional love may not exist and she confirmed that by acting as if I were ridiculous for even thinking that it did!
Anyways, thank you for your comment. It was validating and a relief (however small or intangible of one, a relief nonetheless??) to read words from another human that they had a similar response to the same kind of unpredictable, spiteful, selfish parenting style.
I'm sorry that you had the same disorienting, untethered experience of that though. It really sucks not knowing what to do or what not to do.
I started just doing what I wanted cuz sometimes I'd get in trouble and sometimes they wouldn't really care too much. Most of my relationships or interactions revolve around me "mind reading" people's emotional state, the reason behind it and then attempting to improve it, somehow via observational deductions in their perceived emotional responses to whatever I would say or do.
I still do this. I still do this even if someone literally tells me exactly what their boundaries are. I will continue to cross them if they seem amiable or mostly okay after I push a button or boundary.
I hope I can become more present and aware and do more active listening so I can lessen that instinct/automatic behavior of mine. Being disrespectful because it doesn't immediately change someone's demeanor isn't okay. Yet their demeanor is all I pay attention to. Blablabla I am rambling now.
I digress. Thank you for a thoughtful reply to my comment 🥰💯🫂
@@joemendiuk you spelled deficient incorrectly too. Mr. Nitpicky lol
@@joemendiukTry not to be a classless, cold, heartless A-hole in life. I sure hope that you’re Schizoid, because you really should sequester yourself away from others, for your own sake , and for the good of the rest of society. And if you aren’t, you should consider having zero relationships, from this day forward.
Little Albert experiment.. this is a great example of conditioning
That makes perfect sense.
After generations of conditioning that produces narcissism, I wonder if genetics of this sort eventually evolve. The narc family I was acquainted with was native to their region; their ancestry had been around for 300 yrs. Relatives, past and present have histories of psychological issues, some resulting in incarceration, mental facilities and home isolation.
My husband’s entire family on both sides are narcissistic and he even has tendencies. The people in his town are a mixed bag of narcissistic people and some normal, so I think maybe it's an adaptation to the environment you're in. If my husband acts like a narcissistic idiot I stand up for myself and tell him to get lost and he will apologize to me. I think because he’s not a true narc, he can see how his actions hurt others. He's improved a lot but there's a ways to go.
@@belle8i the narc I knew always smiled if I said something like “get lost”. It seemed like they thrived on arguing, insults and name calling. After a while they’d all go to their corners until the next “session”. The 60 yr old man’s mother would end phone convos with “mummy loves you”.
Thank you Prof.Vaknin
This is fascinating malevolent psychology it reminds me of watching videos of how farmers beat cows to submission out of not love but malevolence like malevolent played by Angelina jolie in The film malevolent
Dr. Sam, Question. If the person with apparent narcissistic behaviors (not officially diagnosed) was conditioned starting in childhood, can they be unconditioned or reconditioned away from this behaviour?
Someone diagnosed with NPD cannot.
I recently had a terrific incident with NPD most likely ASPD but this person was trying to condition me into his fantasy and he started labelling every move i did as ''maculine''or ''feminine''. This individual sensed my self esteem he all of a sudden wanted to be a father figure at the same time was degrading everything about me. He said being logical is too ''masculine''. I started to have existential crisis and depersonalization/derealisation because I had crush on this person big time. He asked me if ''I was already in love with him'', I said ''not yet''. He decided to degrade me even more and tried to use Classical and intermittent conditioning. For weeks, I felt like there is something wrong with me and I felt like I wasn't enough in a very self destructive way because I tried to seek truth in his words because he put himself as an authority figure infront of me. Prof. Sam How would i assess this situation? Should I just dissapear completely?
Yes, dissappear. There's no reasoning only gaslighting
Please tell him the men in your family would never speak to you in that way
So if you want the narcissist to love you in every sensible word, you gotta be an absolute bastard to them but then they’re expressing their love to you by being the same am I right?😂
This sounds like the hook up trick nr.1 / Be an asshole
They def won’t run away if you treat them terribly…… but also yes, narcissists are always going to make your life miserable. …. With intermittent good acts. (the intermittent good acts is what can cause addiction to them)
I know this likely hasn't been explored enough, in a clinical setting, to have a definitive answer, however I am wondering about your personal thoughts or professional opinion (if applicable) on psychedelic substances aiding with malleability as far as something like behavioral modification therapy?
Do you think substances or compounds (or whatever, such as MDMA, psilocybin or DMT) have potential in making more permanent progress or progress in general, like in the case with psychopathy or personality disorders, in rewiring the brain in a more vulnerable or malleable state?
You talk about neuroplasticity and the conditioning that result in personality disorders having to do, largely in part with the stage in brain development in which abuse occurs (As well as the strong suggestive/supporting evidence of the genetic/hereditary predisposition).
So my question is, do you personally or professionally think there could be clinical implications in regards to psychoactive drugs or substances that could positively assist in CBT or the like? DMT for example leaves one very disoriented and vulnerable, the 5 senses all blur together and disappear at the same time as far as surface experience goes but there are things happening in the brain during use as well that have my curiosity in the possibility of real change if different strategic therapies were administered while the patient were using it.
hi sarah, your story is sad. Seems like your parents could have used some coping skills. Do you have contact with them today? Just curious. Im 46 and not until June of last year did I know what a narcissist is.... and I'm still living with him today...
Search the therapies playlist.
@@samvaknin thank you.
The question of possible genetic predispositions is fascinating. I believe this is one of the core aspects of the genesis of NPD. Is there even a methodology on the subject that could serve as a basis for conducting research? What are the foundations of the genetic predisposition hypotheses?
Search the From Child playlist.
My ex drooled all the time.
Let the war begin😂
Yeah. No. I don't have that problem. I do detest narcissists, though.
Why would a parent use intermittent reinforcement? Unintentionally or intentionally? I think my mom did it on purpose and my dad did it unintentionally
How are you Dr. Vakinin?😊
Vaknin.
Why do you keep calling me ilinformed and charlatan? 😂😂😂😂