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How Much Do Model Train Motors Really Cost? | £2 vs. £27
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2020
- If you spend the extra money and buy genuine replacement Hornby motors, do they really perform better than cheap alternatives directly from China?
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There's still the question of long term durability, but at a tenth of the cost it'd have to be very poor indeed to negate the bargain price. Nice research project. Thanks for doing this.
Yes you're right! I've been using these since 2018 - no failures as of yet!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It is the same motor !!!@@@@
@@steffenrosmus1864 Visually almost identical, sure, but appearance tells us little. Examples of low-quality knockoff products abound: just set foot in any dollar store.
@@mattp1337 not only visual those motors were built in China to the millions for most of the model rr companies. If you open both motors and check the interior you will find out they are identical. Built model re remotoring kits for brass engines for 40 years now and found this situation nearly everywhere
@@steffenrosmus1864 If you say so, but the whole point is that you can't know from some random eBay listing whether it's identical or a low-quality knockoff. This video at least gives some independent reassurance that quality motors equivalent to the branded product exist at this price.
brilliant Sam just shows how we are being ripped off by the prices of modern locos. Could you do similar with a replacement Bachmann motor?
It would be harder with Bachmann - I've not found any suitable replacements - it seems they might even use their own proprietary motors. If true, this is even worse of course, since you can't do any other than buy from Bachmann - also at £17 a piece, and those are just 3-pole!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I am not convinced that the Bachmann 3 pole is as good as the Hornby 5 pole.
Sam can you do a video on different types of motors ie 3 pole 5 pole etc and explain the differences. Even the old motors as I have old second Hand locks. Thanks
I have both Bachmann & Liliput locos and the motors all have Bachmann stamped on them so they must get their motor supplier in China to do that.
As for the motors being only able to be fitted in Bachmann locos & Bachmann/Liliput locos only able to take Bachmann motors, I'm not so sure.
In my experience the Bavhmann love will out perform the hornby loco every time, so much so I loathed to buy anything Hornby these days
Especially in a commercial situation.
I have swapped several castle/county motors with cheaper alternatives and they still work and usually fail with other faults
I also struggled to find a replacement for the Bachmann
Its exactly the same, when the factory finishes making the hornby motors they make a slight change and make extras for themselves. Same thing happens with rc and drone parts.
Duly noted, many thanks for the info!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
do you have a guide for someone just getting into the hobby who wants to buy these parts to build their own locos?
That’s probably the most useful video I have watched for model railways. Considering I buy up non runners to bolster my own fleet. Thanks. I will order some motors. 👍🏻
Really glad to hear that Dan - thanks so much!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Wow! The crawl on that one is insane!
Not even April Fools! This is absolutely astonishing...
I had thought of getting a model train motor for other toy projects to save money, looks like it's the opposite!
haha I know - it is quite surprising isn't it?! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains By the way, does this add or remove from one's level of modelrailwaymanship? :)
It runs smoth
An amazing comparison Sam, and an indication that once again, the large companies are ripping us all off. If you can buy a motor that cheaply, which is the heart of the loco, what's the real cost of the other components!!...Thoroughly enjoying your current uploads during these difficult times....Keep them coming...Bob
Thanks so much Bob - yes it would seem so, at least where motors are concerned!!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
One thing that I have found to improve performance on a few used models I have bought in the past was to remove the wheel sets and clean out the bearings from the driving wheels (especially if the loco tends to surge and slow at a constant rate). The slow speed improved dramatically afterwards, so it might not always mean the motor needs to be replaced. Thanks for the video Sam, always helpful to know more!
Yes absolutely - that's definitely a key part of the servicing, it's well worth doing!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video mate! Honestly, from what I can tell Hornby's philosophy seems to be to try to sell a few products at very high prices rather than sell loads for a reasonable price. Also their customer service is pretty bad in my erperience. Airfix however, which is owned by the same company, had good prices and great customer service! When I was making my Harrier FA.2 I made a mistake and accidentally ruined one of the parts. I emailed Airfix explaining what happened and how it was all my fault and they sent out a replacement for me!
Regards,
Douglas
I guess you're right Douglas - though my argument has always been that more reasonable prices will attract more sales, and grow the hobby beyond the rich elite. Great to hear you got some good service there! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Absolutely amazing video Sam. Thank you for providing that we are being ripped off by different company's for replacement motor. An amazing experiment can not wait to see more videos like this.
Thanks Luke - really glad you enjoyed the results! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I believe the original Hornby motor is a Kato HM5, which actually does not have a skewed armature, so that could explain the difference in slow speed performance.
The new motor appears to be the HM5 copy used by Atlas and a few other manufacturers making their trains in China. I haven't pulled one of these apart before, but's it's very possible they have a skewed armature unlike the Kato motor.
I almost never buy brand new motors from the manufacturers anymore. By looking around for surplus or direct Chinese motors with the correct specs (or pulling from old CD drives and printers), you can often save anywhere from 50% to 90% off of buying from the manufacturer, and sometimes end up with a better motor!
Yes - it does seem to be the same size as the Kato HM5! I've pulled motors like this apart before, they did appear to be all but identical to the Hornby ones - though this was some time ago! You're right - I won't be buying from the major manufacturers again, unless there's no alternative!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
There's a rule of thumb that at every step of a supply chain, the price doubles. That pays the costs (including taxes) and leaves a profit. By going direct to a Chinese source, you could be dropping a couple of steps, and pay a quarter of the price. And that doesn't look badly wrong for motor+worm.
In this case, Hornby do get a bigger chunk of money, but they may also have higher costs, such as packaging and assembly and storage until the spare is needed, and you'd be a fool to use that rule for planning a price. I have also bought things with rather poor quality components, which I then replaced. One of the things to remember is that postage costs can be a pretty big chunk of the cost: twenty screws are not twice the cost of ten.
Long term, supply chains are going to change, They've been fragile for a long time. But it may well be that we all look for suppliers with UK stocks.
Very true Dave, but even so, the motors from Hornby.com represent a 1395% (!!!!!) increase in price on what I paid, and that INCLUDES postage to my door! Granted Hornby need to make their money, but I think this seems excessive!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains There is another thought here, this could be a chinese producer dumping their QA failures cheap.
IE Hornby order a batch for, lets say £8 a motor, from the supplier. The Chinese supplier budgets £6 for production, knowing that each motor costs £3 to produce, but 50% won't passed a QA test for the Hornby motor (Resistance out of range on test, scratched/dented on the production line, casing out of length tolerance, etc etc). They fufil Hornby's order, and are left with a stock of motors which they've technically been paid for as part off the Hornby order.
For a quick bit of extra profit they can then put the better quality cast offs on eBay, and this will be pretty much just extra profit, so they can go as cheap as they like, in this case, lower than the cost of production (since Hornby already paid for that). eBay accounts are easy to replace if an account get too much poor feedback, while Hornby have to factor in that reputational risk (hence the testing and the failures).
This has happened with iPhone in China, where the Apple cast offs were ending up either on the Chinese market or eBay.
You also get free postage due to China's deal with international postage (I know it's the Mail, but the core facts are correct).
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5641459/UK-retailers-furious-Chinese-firms-use-loophole-let-ship-cheap-goods-UK.html
I do agree £27 is a lot for a motor however, especially when you can nearly buy another secondhand loco for the same price.
@@m10cachilles43 Hornby pays 50p per motor so however you want to look at it they are ripping us off. I have bought lost of these Chinese motors and every one runs perfectly and in most cases better than the Hornby ones.
I’m surprised, I expected the cheap motor to be a little behind in all tests, durability is the only issue but that’s not really an issue because of the price, just buy 10 like you did. Thanks for a great video. 👍
I expected that too - very pleasantly surprised!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Fabulous test sam, goes to show we are being done when it comes to pricing on new models from pretty much every manufacturer of 🙀👍
Thanks a lot Ciaran - the results here certainly suggest that - let's hope we're not being done like this for all products! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
that's one heck of a capitalism!
ERROR
Amazing,, so pleased there is modellers like you ,,, it really helps people like me who find it hard to have the money to just go and buy new and sending model away to get it repaired,,a big thank you, please keep up your great work
Thanks very much John, really glad to hear that mate!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam I have changed a considerable amount of my locomotives motors with these cheaper replacements and have not had a horror story yet. Had roughly the same outcomes as your tests in your video. Seems to cover quite a few manufacturers bachmanns take quite well athearn, austrains, auscision, hornby, power line, mehano, rivarossi and lima I have done replacements. Love the videos Sam very informative and helpful
Great to hear that Mat - I too haven't been let down by any of them yet! Thanks for sharing,
Sam :)
Very interesting video, Sam. I'm going to be experimenting with some motors for my custom build trains and a gear puller will be a game changer. I have a selection of Chinese motors from Ebay along with a few packs of nylon gears and worms for prototyping configurations. I'll be powering both ends of my HS trains so cost is an important factor. It's good to know that these motors are at least as good as the ones we already use. Nice one mate :))
I can recommend it Tom - they work fantastic! Good luck! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
If we used 6 or 8 pole motors they should run smoother would they not? This is right up my alley Sam. I have an avid interest in railway research... my collection of Rail Technical Centre liveried coaches and locos speaking volumes. Great to see such testing with such an interesting topic. I like your impression of the Old Dalby Test Track! Cheers.
I don't know much about that Gary - I think there are issues with heat dissipation/over complexity with that many poles at such a scale - I've certainly never seen such a motor this tiny! Really glad you enjoyed this though mate, haha!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Interesting find and comparison Sam. It is true, it would be nice for a definitive database for which motor, which chassis - MN = Coronation = Princess for example.
There is typically a mark-up to cover transport / transfer of ownership charges, but PERHAPS there's an additional test which avoids rogue / faulty motors?
That said, at those prices you could have on good and 7 faulty and still be quids in!!
Interesting presentation and thanks for sharing.
Thanks very much Alan - yes that's a great idea, I could try that! :D
Very interesting - you could be right!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I agree, there isn't really anything special about model train motors. There might have been years ago when manufacturers like Rivarossi were making their own motors specifically for model trains but today the only company that I know of still making their own motors is Roco.
Thanks mate - it would seem not! You're right!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
With all the spare parts I'm sure you've collected over the years, have you ever tried to make an entire custom engine, a frankenstein of sorts?
haha I've thought about it - it certainly would be fun! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
A post apocalyptic mad max dystopian virus lockdown filthy diesel locomotive from the bowels of hell please 🤣🙂
@@SamsTrains a class 4391580
a 43+390+158+180
with mk3 coaches
(oh god thats gonna look terrible)
@@KaiDiesAgain .
@@denniswheeler448 ??
I love experiments like this, really shows the price gouging customers suffer at the hands of the manufacturers...! They probably get each motor from China (where they build the locos anyway lol) for mere pence a piece and charge what? Crazy! Thanks as always for the awesome and enlightening video Sam! Cheers!
haha I know right - I expect they come from a similar manufacturer, for a similar price!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
They’ve been making small electric motors for years, they are hardly working hard when used and must cost next to nothing, the usual rip off for the customer.
Wish I had watched this last year when I swopped a failed Hornby motor. Never mind, it still works and I will remember in future. Had a similar experience with a Bachmann motor. Like you say, get a gear puller and you are winning!!!
I have seen several comments regarding how long these motors will last. I build 1/43 scale slot cars and use a wide selection of cheap Chinese electric motors in my chassis. These cars are worked quite hard in various competitions and I have had 1 motor failure in 10 years. This failure happened in a car that did many endurance races with voltages up to 20 volts, with a motor marked as 7.5 volts. I have no problem with their quality control!
Yeah you're right Lloyd - I've been using these since 2018, and they're all fine so far! I think the longevity should be very good! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thanks for the video Sam, it will come in handy for my DIY Class 50! In fact, please may I have the link for the Chinese motor, I might get one after the current crisis. So far for my 50, I have laser cut the frames from acrylic whilst I was at school, the bogies and wheelsets are finished, just got the electronics and bodyshells to do now!
Ooh that sounds very involved - hope it works out for you mate!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I love the Merchant Navy Class, it’s so cool! Especially the BR blue one! :)
I agree - they are cool! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I’m glad the algorithm gods put this in my path. I’m not a train modeller but I’m sort of adjacently interested, and I’ve been trying to figure out why everything to do with the hobby is so expensive. It’s almost like my questions are too basic to have any easily available answers-I thought the motor connection system must be insanely complex for no one to attempt to replace with generic parts, but as you’ve demonstrated it’s really not. I would like to learn more though, like how exactly the power gets from the wheels to the motor, and how the wheels/axles are connected to that worm gear.
The next level up would be figuring out why all the dcc stuff is so expensive. It’s not as simple as the mechanical side, but in the age of smartphones I am suspicious of why some basic electronic board and simple programs are hundreds of dollars.
Oh, and all the car system stuff! Rare earth magnets are extremely affordable now, and the weaker magnetic strips are dirt cheap. Magnetic paint exists too. Surely if you don’t care about setting up wireless control, all you need is a small motor, switch and battery for making the vehicle go. Or heck, find a wind up toy and stick a guiding magnet on it.
I use £1.99 motors ( made for moving car wing mirrors) and home made gearboxes using bags of Chinese plastic gears and I put them in O gauge locomotives. The models are radio controlled and performance is superb and I regularly haul 8/9 coach trains for hours at a time. A commercial O gauge motor/gearbox can run into 3 figures. Found your video very interesting. rgds Graham Powell
That sounds wonderful Graham - props to you for building gearboxes for them too - I'm definitely not skilled enough for that! Great work!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very cool Sam!
I find this stuff interesting for some reason
Thanks very much - glad you liked it mate! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Me to
An excellent vid. You always come up with interesting experiments and tests. Very creative!
Thank you very much! Glad you found it interesting! :D
MIND BOGGLING, JUST MIND BOGGLING. You are in a different league to me Sam. You took that Merchant Navy to pieces in 10 minutes flat , used a soldering iron which i HATE and replaced the motor. And a very CHEAP motor at that. You have blown me away on this one, great credit to you Sam. Bravo,Bravo. Have you ever considered being a advisor to Hornby. Looks like they could do with your input, expertise. Brilliant Sam, thank you 🚄🚅🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Bless you Mark, really made me feel good reading that! Appreciate your kind words,
Cheers,
Sam :)
Mate... followed your lead, bought the same chinese jobbies and fitted one to a Hornby class 0F 0-4-0 pug, popped in some lead ballast. Slow running is fantastic. Uses less lecky. Awesome. Ta.
That sounds awesome - I've wanted to try that for myself - glad it worked well!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Good video, need to source a new motor for my Bachmann Edward from the Thomas range
Ahh that's harder - I've not had much luck with Bachmann ones!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video! Can you do a soldering iron tutorial?
Thanks Lettuce - great idea - I could try that!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
won't lie, but there are an abundance of those on youtube!
Well done Sam excellent! I have just started rebuilding my N Gauge railway after 20 years and some of the motors have beaten me to the grave! So this gives me hope that there are economical motors that work out there. Thanks again.
PS 20 years ago I didn't need a magnifying kit to look at the railway, now I do and z gage to must be goign mad in my old age, should be looking at at least O gauge, still smaller gauges give you lovely long train rakes, magic!
Thanks very much - yes these do seem to be good ones (so far!)! haha that's very brave of you doing Z gauge - that must be very tricky!!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I bought some of these motors after watching the video. I fitted one to a Hornby Stanier 4p loco I was building, other than sourcing a worm drive, no issues. It worked perfectly.
Great to hear that! I've been using these since 2018 too - still no issues for me either!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Heljan 1361 class cost:
Motor - 5£
Body - 20£
Detail - 1£
Can't forget about the inflation from 1910 (when the loco was built) to 2020
3,085.60£!
Heljan made it extremely underpriced for a price tag of
Over 100£!
haha - love it!! ;D
Your tests are very scientific and at the same time easy to understand! Please do more tests like this in the future, we would love to see some critical comparisons in model railroading! Good job King Sam of Sodor
Glad to hear that Marie - I'll be sure to do more! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I used Japanese VCR motors for my Mantua Steam engines and they still run great today after 25 years.
Ahh sounds fantastic - you can't beat the Japanese motors!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
"Let's set it off and let it have a bit of a run..." : performs the smoothest quietest start ever..
what is the link for the motor you bought?? with the single shaft, I am on finding dual shafts
You have to keep an eye on Ebay - they pop up and disappear quite frequently!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Look at aliexpress, it's even cheaper than Ebay. Mabuchi motor is what I search for my french locomotives.
@@renenoel2641 You can't go wrong with Mabuchi - they make motors for all kinds of models. Even the smaller and cheaper ones (like the type 130 they make for Tamiya's mini4wds) are ridicolously resilient - at the model shop I used to race at we did even endurance races with those (the Light Dash in particular), and even then they would simply not give up. You could literally do several more regular races with the motor they issued you for the endurance race!
@@renenoel2641 I buy frequently from AliExpress, no loco motors yet though. Do you have a preferred supplier for those Mabuchi motors? Link?
@@renenoel2641 Just did an AliEx search. No Mabuchis in spec, and only a single hit on the same five pole Sam uses here, but only offering single buy at a silly price for AliExpress ATM. Looks like Ebay FTW. Heading there now.
I can remember you doing this with the triang neo magnets a few years back XD
haha yeah - it was similar!! :D
Greta video! Only have two problems with this: 1) Don't have any broken motors and 2) Don't have a Merchant Navy class (I thinks it's a lovely model), which means I'm now looking for a broken one so I don't have to pay the full price ;-)
haha no problem Roy! Mind you, many Hornby locos use this same kind of motor! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I really enjoyed your video. Have you ever seen Marklin. It's 16v AC 3 rail and runs really well, new for the 1935 catalogue.
Got a lot of it and think it's brilliant.
It's very simple to explain the difference in price: All middle-class hobbies have an extra 0 added to the price compared to how much the items are actually worth everywhere else.
haha you're probably exactly right actually! xD
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Ha - good video, and I like that you used several different metrics to measure performance.
What amazes me with the price differences between model railways and children's toys is that there are so many well-detailed toys out there built with similar technology and to similar standards, and they're all just a fraction of the price. You can't even justify the R&D costs of some of these things - Hornby are still using molds that date back half a century in some cases. Daft! :)
At least one 0.
Looks like we need to do another L O N G T E R M T E S T
Absolutely! xD
I bought the same motor with double shaft as possible replacements for my Kato locomotives (this motor is the same dimensionally) and for any other locos that may need repowering. Excellent motor and great price. These motors were $2.55 USD, but have just gone up to $3.55. Shipping very cheap, but it took three weeks for them to arrive from overseas and work their way through Customs.
Great to hear that - they really do perform well don't they?! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The black coat of paint was the most expensive part of that motor. If you do away with that (and brass bushings) you can have the same motors for less than 30 cents.
Wow as little as that? Crazy! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Having bought a lot of chinese electronics goods over the years and in general have found them very well priced and little difference from similar uk sourced products, i was not surprised by your results. For railway modellers that has to be a big positive. .
I noticed that many British and US H0/00 locos use regular "off the shelve" motors, when I needed a replacement. I simply went to the 1st modell exchange and brought a random motor from a seller who sales all kinds of electrical parts (motors, LEDs, relays ect.), for about 3.5 GBP (and it was a 5 pole replacing a 3 pole motor). Dough most German, French, Austrian manufacturers are using more special motors, sometimes it is also their own product (like the old XO4 Tri-ang motor)!
You're right - most of them are standard sizes!! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
1. Lube motor bushings prior to assy--they come dry. 2. Test mechanism BEFORE assembling loco, not after. 3. Locate worm gear on shaft relative to mounting holes, not distance to motor. 4. Measure volts applied before measuring amps. Turning a knob is not accurate. At least you let the brushes wear in--good job.
Thanks for the comment - I do always lube the bushings (this time included), but waited until reassembly for the sake of the video (the prime function is to entertain)! The same with using the knob - I did that for the sake of accessibility, but matching the position of the knob each time produced voltages close enough to demonstrate the similar performance of the two motors!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I was looking at motorising a model tram. The general consensus is to start off at between £27 and £50+. A seller on ebay was doing an entire chassis with "Chinese" motor for £13...I was not sure on the reliability until now but it looks like something that could be useful!
That sounds pretty fun! I've always been really lucky with the Chinese motors - be wary of course - but you might be pleasantly surprised!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video, Sam! I have a couple of Athearn switch engines i want to re-motor before putting DCC in them. You are correct, manufacturer's prices are pretty steep!
Thanks mate! Definitely worth checking Ebay to see if alternatives are available - look for 12-24v motors though, not just 12v ones!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Finally someone picked that theme up.I had a lot of issues with motors and believe they cause the most problems when locos running bad.Especially when running DCC.Still wonder why the Hornby motors have no weight on the axle, it would increase slow speed performance for sure.Your test was a nearly tie, i guess.The specs of a motor are important, due to the fact how many windings are on the rotor.Also thickness gauge of the wire is a point.What i say is , a high rev motor with lower torque , or a less reving motor with more torque.Depends on which loco is used and of course the gearing.Anyway, my opinon is that manufacturers uses often cheap motors and swapping a motor will help the loco to run way beter.As you show in the vid , it didn´t have to be expensive Maxon or Mashima motors.
haha thanks Carsten - I thought this had to be done! Many thanks for all the info, yes the motors appeared to be identical (inside too), there's no way Hornby's motors cost much more than mine did!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Just some insight from someone who works at an electrical company who operates, manufactures and ships in the UK.
If Hornby are anything like where I work. The reason their motors are so expensive is because they aren't really trying to sell a lot of them. They likely keep them in house so they can make repairs on locos themselves and selling them for say, £2-£3 isn't at all worth the time or effort, especially when people can easily get them elsewhere for not a whole lot more then they'll be paying wholesale. Where I work we do the same with knobs for electrical items. We keep a load in stock for building our product, they cost like... 50-90p each for us to buy. They're about £1-£1.20 each in the consumer market. If you want to buy a kit of 6 from us we'll charge you £30 for them (Free shipping in the UK though... Woo).
Selling them at a price to compete with the normal £1.20 price would loose us money so we don't even bother trying to. The quantities and logistics of making money on a 30-70p mark up just doesn't allow for it to work given how much we would sell and the effort it would take. That said there are people who insist they buy knobs from us rather than some 3rd party and charging a significantly higher price makes offering those people who insist worth it for us.
I'm not at all surprised by the results of your tests, small motors like that are so easy to find for a low price. There is no reason you should be paying £20 for one and I'm sure Hornby are expecting most people to go else where for replacements.
Frankly it's great you're getting the word out so more people do go out and get the cheaper, likely identical parts.
Many thanks for the info and insights Jacob, appreciate that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I have bought sold and used these exact same motors from bee-studio and I can categorically state that they are 100% identical with the Hornby motors. Hornby obviously bought them in from the same manufacturer and fitted the brass worms and charged a lot more for them. Very good motors though!
Yeah I agree - they are identical!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This is quite fascinating. I have an old 1950s Tyco 4-6-2 that predates the exposed worm and has a superior enclosed gearbox and an original Pittman open frame motor as seen in bowser and brass models.
It runs so outstandingly well I want to give it dcc and sound however I'm afraid the motor may be pulling just over most decoder amp limits. At least it seems if need be, I can find a good can motor for cheap!
Oh very nice - great to hear those run well! Yes do be careful - the old motors can damage sensitive decoders!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hey what should I do if I got a blown capacitor? Like do I need special kinds of wiring to repair it?
Hi Sam.
Sorry to be a pain. Last question honest. As you pointed out in your reply tractive effort or force would be less if the new motor was weaker. The new motor wasn't. Or was it?
Put it this way. If the new motor was ten times more powerful the tractive effort would still be the same. Wheel slippage is no different than oiling the wheels and the track. Also were the two motors the same weight?
Yes you're right - this test wouldn't show whether the new motor was more powerful, but I hope it also demonstrates that locos are no weaker with the alternative motor fitted. The current draw also indicates that the power consumption is close to the same. I haven't weighed the two motors, but I could do, they do appear to be identical inside and out!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very good test, your methodology is perfectly fair and the results are so strong. I wonder if it is just the same manufacturer that builds the motors for Hornby that then makes other batches to sell on their own. In any case no doubt Hornby pay even less for them than what you have paid. I understand Hornby needs to make their earning, but being a spare part for a loco they already sold you, they could really just add a couple of pounds and have happy customers instead.
Thanks very much Jose - yes those were my thoughts exactly - an apparent 1300% mark-up seems quite unreasonable for a spare part!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Which supplier did you use, Sam. I'm struggling to find the particular motor you show on this video
They're usually 130 size motors, my Lima Class 20 uses a 180 size motor.
All cheaply available
I'd recommend buying a pinion puller to remove the worm drive from the old motor
Yes you're right - many do use that size, though there are no 12-24v available from China at the moment - I've had some in the past though!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thanks so much, Sam for that link. I'd tried to find something like this before but no success. I put in that description and - there they are!
I buy quite a bit of old model train stock and sometimes the motors are dodgy or dead.
Buying from the UK to Australia costs a lot in postage let alone purchase cost and I can buy the Chinese motors delivered for the UK post cost.
I hope they work well, I've tried lower voltage motors before but they are only a short term fix.
Good onya
No problem Gerry, hope they serve you well! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Ive been buying cheap can motors for years from ebay from china. They may not be of hugh quality, but some budget companies use them here in the states. Ive never had a problem with them in any of the repowers ive done.
Yeah you're right - I can't say I've ever had a major quality problem with them either!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The reason for same performance is simple : both motors are the same "made in china motor" ! One is bought by the model train manufacture the other by you , the price difference is ( beside applying their own trademark for extra $ ) the costs any manufacturer pays for assuring supply of a particular item based on the COC ! The huge majority of made in china dc motors are replica ( knock-off) of japanese, swiss, or german motors ! ( e.g. Namiki, Canon, Faulhaber , Maxon ,etc. )
If you like experiments , try to get a Faulhaber motor and install it to a loco ... you will like it :)
Thanks very much for the info Larry - I'd love to try one of those!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I don't know if all types of railway model motors and gears fit in it, but I think you might want to get Slot.It's SP21 extractor press. It was designed for slot cars and not trains, but it should still work. I own one myself and it's an expensive (around €60 I think) but excellent tool, it can both pull and install gears and also has a graduated scale on it to measure how far the gear is on the shaft.
Yes I've often thought about it - it would be great to have! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video Sam, how about 3d printing all new mount so you could use any 12v motor and possibly even adding a second motor in locos with the space.
This way you could use these motors in the beachman models too.
That would be great - I'd love to be able to do something like that! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I tried to find a motor for an electric razor. I found a huge variation. I could buy salvaged motors from used razors all the way up to german made motors. For 30 pounds you should be able to buy a german motor. The cool thing was that they had data sheets.
It might be interesting to source a high quality motor... the official train makers motor is not necessarily the best quality.
Chinese components in general are usually very vague on actual information and instead say "improved" or "powerful".
It would be very interesting, you're right - I'd love to try a genuinely expensive motor, and not one that's just been marked up ridiculously! xD
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I would be neat to see what a genuine heavy puller could do. I wonder if a 12v screwgun motor could be made to sit into a 0 Gauge train chassis... :)
What you need is a cheap 3d printer like an Ender 3, then you could make it fit. And print your own chassis... based on your rail gun rolling stock (which is probably the biggest thing that could make it around the layout)... imagine that in all wheel drive configuration.
Wow I look away for 1 second and this video grew to greatness
I raised this guy!
haha thank you! :D
I’d like to say I was surprised by this but I’ve seen a similar test before in a magazine
Even supermarkets and chain stores have known for years
Charge what people can afford ( are prepared to pay)
Regional areas of the same company will have different prices according to this
£27 pounds is absolutely ridiculous!
Your test proves the point
I like these tests you do as I’m now disabled and on benefit
I’m not convinced at all that locos should be £200 +
I think people have been conned into believing it
I’m a huge fan of your site as you obviously enjoy your hobby
and think what you want
Not what you’re told to
You and Budget Model Railways
are my favourites😊
Many thanks for the feedback Jonathan - and you're right - if this kind of mark-up is typical, then a £200 locomotive probably costs around £15-£25 to produce.... I sincerely hope that isn't the case!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I know this is an old video and all, but do think these could fit and work in the original P2s? (The TTS and Railway ones which had 3 pole motors to them). I live in the USA so prices for spares and parts are even more steep and hard to find.
Good report, thank you. Will share with my train club tonight.
Applying a bit of heat to the worm before refitting helps it slip on easier, less chance of stripping brass out of the core. And when it cools it will shrink back to the shaft.
Absolutely Dave - that's why I used the heat gun! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
this is one of the reasons I much prefer to use tender drive ringfields/hornby diesel ringfields and lima diesels, spare parts are available and they pull better, plus you can service them as well :D
Often the same motor is available in different winds to run at different speeds and currents so it could be a slightly 'slower' wind - so it will run slower and take a bit less current.
It's not just model locomotive motors.
I'm a retired white goods service engineer. The mark-up on the price of washing machine motors etc is outrageous. Same for car parts and so on. Yes, Hornby are taking the mickey, but only if we're daft enough to pay their prices.
Thank you Mr Strains for this excellent video.
With big companies you find they have certified suppliers and the price is inflated as a result. Where i work we use a brass spring on a valve companies supplier £60 outside hardware store £2.
Blimey - crazy stuff!! Seems like going elsewhere is the best idea then!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It’s amazing how much companies charge as markup for replacement parts with their own part numbers on them. Motors, screws, wiring, even circuit boards can be found significantly cheaper elsewhere.
Yeah I find it quite amazing too - they shouldn't do it with parts in my opinion - replacement parts are needed when original ones have failed.... it's unreasonable that the manufacturer should be profiting from their own failures!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It is like buying the train over and over
Poundland, get a USB fan and take the motor out.
Benefits:
Express trains are faster, goes over express points (and scenery), and adds realstic smoke effect.
Cons:
May send your model back in time which is known to melt plastic.
I wouldn't recommend that really - the USB motors are usually only rated for 3-5v, and they draw much more current than 12-24v motors do. On 12v they could easily burn out, as you say!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Perhaps the cost of train motors has something to do with Mashima stopping production and people buying up spare stock which then cost a fortune. Maybe others have jumped on the bandwagon figuring thats what the market will bear. What we really need (ready to run and also kit and scratch builders) is someone to test alternatives from the motors available. The EM gauge society did do it but that was some while ago and I don’t know if the are repeating the exercise. Anyway soap box over. Interesting vid Sam.
Very interesting Mike - could be right there - thanks for sharing! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
Think this video misses the point. The issue on a £150 loco is not whether the motor costs £2 or £20 but can you find a suitable replacement? There is motor shape, diameter and length, shaft diameter and lengths and rpm. Finding the right motor on ebay is a pain and takes a month to come from China. My Hattons 66 had a faulty commutator which I managed to clean and get working but it goes wrong again periodically. I asked Hattons if they had spare motors and they said no. Similar thing with Kernow Class 41 and they sold me a replacement motor for around £20. We need the manufacturers to sell us spares otherwise we have non-working models for £150. At £2 probably not worth it. Personally glad to pay £20 and get the loco working again.
Sam-this would have been a great video if you had given the vendor name, motor size (length and width), and the shaft diameter. I just did an eBay search and these things vary all over the place and still did not see any like the one you showed in the video.
I picked what I thought was a 12 volt motor up from China to run Harold the helicopters rotor blades on a Thomas layout at our local club, the cost was £i.60 free P&P. When it arrived there was 2 in the packet so actual cost was 80p.
Blimey - it really is unbelievable what motors really cost isn't it?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains It sure is the whole model railway thing is a cash cow.
Very good test Sam. You know how to do it. I’m not surprized as they have probably copied the motor in China. Well, I’m quite sure the original is also a Chinese one. Perhaps made in the same factory. BUT the main difference is (if any) in the quality of components. You should open both and compare the components. Actually you don’t know how long this new one lasts until you have used it for long enough. Drive now a year or so and repeat the test. Or put one new motor to a test bench and run if for few weeks continually and test again. Then you can tell much much more. And you should also listen the motors if they differ from each others or not. The sound is one of the best ways to diagnose motors. I hhave been maintenence engineer for 50 yrs and I always listen everything. Some times using a bearing stetoscope. The ear is very good tool if you are experienced enough. If both sound equal now and after two weeks test, it may tell that the motors are possibly made in the same factory.
Thanks very much mate - yeah you cold be right, that wouldn't surprise me! I have opened them up in the past, couldn't tell any difference. This kind is a nuisance to reassemble though, so I don't recommend it!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The obvious question from my point of view is whether it lasts as well as the original ones. I look forward to a report back in a few years time!
I've been using motors like this since 2018 - so far so good with no failures! Even if they start failing now, I've got 20 years worth for the cost of one genuine one!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam'sTrains good point!
Oh yes, it's exactly the same motor I think. Hornby sells it with a very high profit, Märklin and other firms here in Germany practice the same thing - but even perhaps the well generated profit seems to be much higher... An average price between 30 and 50 Euro is required for that would-be original spare parts... And meanwhile it's even normal you CANNOT replace the carbon brushes any more because the used China motors are encapsulated... A very good video giving a revealing insight. Happy Easter from Germany! :)
It certainly seems so! Oh wow that's incredible - what a price!! :O
Although the brushes can be replaced with these - it's just a nuisance to do it!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Well no, some coreless designs are brushless www.portescap.com/products/brushless-dc-motor/bldc-motor-design
Indeed they are, but I believe they need support circuitry to run them - I'm not sure any of the usual manufacturers use brushless motors!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains My Trix P10 loco does, a brush coreless design. You can see a pic of the motor here www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/153417-coreless-motors-back-emf-feedback-controllers-dcc/page/2/
Brushless coreles designs tend to be for very high rpm applications
Very very interesting video Sam. It begs the question...........just how much do model trains cost to manufacture?
My thoughts exactly Stephen - is a 1000% mark-up typical?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
they should be about the same but it really comes down to the magnets. the newer motor would have fresh magnets but the quests would be the longevity, heat and general usage will reduce field strength. this can be mitigated by better production chemistry that dose coast money.
my bet is that they really are about the same with in the manufacturing variability.
Yes you're probably right - though I'd expect they're using neodymium magnets these days!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I just bought four Rivarossi Big Sixes, and have not run them yet due to installing brake hangers among other details! Would it be worth my time to switch out the motors and install flywheels? You ought to see these babies!!! They're starting to look like something----haven't run them yet though!!! By the way I really have a new thing with British steam after watching Tornado break 100 MPH on RUclips---I watch that run all of the time!!! I lay here in bed with my vintage railroad pocket watches watching that run, and I'm not even close to the UK---I live in the states (Utah) to be exact! I am a retired locomotive engineer that would give my grapes to have been on the footplate with those guys during that test run---Cheers!!!
Ahh fair enough - let me know how it goes! Do they take these motors? If there's space, you could utilise the double-shafted motors on Ebay an add a flywheel, for sure! Thanks very much for the comment, stay in touch!
Sam :)
The real test is longevity. I have bought cheap adaptors for computers before now, saving sometimes about £50 but, although worked perfectly at first, blew up fairly quickly. Never lasted anywhere near as long as the proper make of adaptor.
Mate Hornby use cheap motors from China too. End of.
Power supplies are very different - never buy cheap ones! I've actually been using these cheap replacements in my models since 2018 - I'm yet to have any failures! It's very probable that Hornby use the same sort of thing!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I suppose Sam that if we punters are daft enough to pay inflated prices from branded suppliers then we don't deserve any better. Nice one mate, and good for Google! Just shows shopping around works! Must admit I've been bitten in the arse on occasion when I've accepted without question a suppliers price quote.
haha I suppose that's true Terry - time to change that I think! Yes I've been bitten many a time before too unfortunately :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
An interesting way to take this a bit further could be to see if it's cheaper to build a loco from spares rather than buy it new. Find a train in your collection that's been around for awhile so there's a decent amount of old used ones online for parts. Aim for one close to £80-£100 (I'm from America so I think that's about $100-$130). Then go through what goes into building one from spares vs a complete original loco of the same type and compare performance and reliability. Just an idea.
haha that's very true - though besides the motors, most of the parts are proprietary to Hornby - but that's a great idea!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
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Awesome work Jacob, thanks for sharing! :D
Merry Christmas - Sam :)
It's very similar with RC car motors both the brushed and brushless varieties. You can get a brushless motor for
Yeah it's very interesting isn't it - well worth shopping 'round!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Do Hornby locomotives have coreless motors? Some locomotives made by Kato, especially the steam ones are powered by a coreless motor which greatly helps in lowering the crawl speeds of the locomotive and allows smoother performance.
None of Hornby's locos have coreless motors - I've never seen a coreless motor perform better than a 5-pole skew wound, but I've heard good things about them!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I'm not entirely surprised Sam.....
I've seen those little Motors all over Evilbay for between $2-3 USD.
My only issue (not a big one!), was your pulling test. The mitigating factor was the traction of the Wheels, more than the Torque of the Motors, above 1/3 Throttle.
Considering you DID admit this wasn't scientific... Most of the testing proved a valid point.
*We're being RIPPED OFF!!* 😠
I've known this for a long while. ANOTHER determining factor is - how much MORE comparable Trains cost in America vs. Great Britain. It's assumed that we have more disposable income, and that's not really true.
Question - I've wanted to try those... But our Locos here have either 2.6mm or 3.2mm (3/16" or 1/8") Driveshafts...
Aren't those 2mm? Can you measure?
If so I can get adapters. The Japanese *$50.00* Sagami Can Motors have 2mm shafts as well.
That was very enlightening Mate! Thank you.
Carmine ✈🚂🚙
Yes absolutely - the sad thing is, if they really spent say, £5-£10 on their motor, we might get better performance!
I'll do my best to measure the drive shafts for you!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I hope you can measure it... This could save me HUNDREDS on remotoring several Locos!!
I'm sure I'm not the only person who would be quite happy to pay a couple of quid more for decent, RELIABLE, motors in my locos. Curiously it's mostly Hornby I've had failures with; S15, Terrier (re-tooled), 700, M7 and the Adams Radial I bought to replace one of my failed Oxford Rail versions; all failed. While I appreciate the amazing attention to detail in modern models, I would gladly sacrifice a few rivets for a quality motor that doesn't burn out or melt my locos.
None of my Bachmann motors have given me any problems; some are fairly noisy but are reliable-and that's what matters.
Yeah absolutely - although decent reliable motors shouldn't be out of the question at current prices.... most of Hornby's pacifics are the best part of £200 now!!!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It’s the same with slot car motors from the same supplier incidentally. Run them in under water for an hour they are beautifully smooth. Regards Gary
Blimey, do you really do that underwater?? What's the thinking behind that?!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains attach wires to the terminals, put the motor in a small amount of water. Run at low speed. It cleans the com and smooths out any roughness in the pickups if they are present. It’s called water spun tuning. It’s on RUclips. Not recommending submerging the loco though 😉
My experience was similar with MTH motors vs same BRAND and MODEL direct from china via Ali Express.
A great pity that there isn't a source for X.03/X.04 motors somewhere. There used to be a motor called the Romford Bulldog that was a 5-pole drop-in replacement for the X.03/X.04, it would be great if you could get those.
Yeah that's true - I'd love to see newly manufactured ones, would be fantastic!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)