@@jacobitosuperstarThoorin living rent free in your head. Quickly counted 10+ comments about him by you. Take a deep breath and lay off the meth yourself (:
Best comment! I am a thorin fan but that like hard pushback after I think Phillip directly answered his import question I was like he needed to chill, like the freeze pipe glycerin chamber
Makes me wonder how many guests specifically refuse to join the show because of Thorin. That really was a bit much to be on-air. "Keeping it real" should have some delineations.
Im a big Thorin fan and this was dissapointing. Philip understandably wanted to talk about this issue and answered Thorins questions about import rules. Thorin should ask more specific questions if he really wanted different answers. But the way he articulated himself was unwarranted. Thorins second explosion came out of no where imo.
Agreed, was actually uncomfortable to watch and was relatively indefensible from him. Still, can't get it right 100% of the time and he's no exception - just hope he reigns it in a bit going forwards.
It’s because Thorin and Richard talk “free market principles “ but then say the builders should prop up the lazys by sacrificing what they earned. Also, specific to Richard, he believes in wedging in inferior people for the sake of diversity.
Thorin, when you cut off someone who's responding to you or arguing against what you're saying enough times, it makes your stance look weak. That's even more true, when that person makes a point of waiting till you're done to respond. The more I watch the show the tougher it is to listen to with how unhinged Thorin is being, berating someone for responding to their point, trying to put them down and what he porbably thinks as 'putting them in their place'. It just highlights his own insecurity more than anything. Contrasting this with how Monte responded when Phil corrected him on something, the maturity difference is night and day.
Thorin is frustrated because he wants to talk about the actual topic, from all perspectives. Phil only came on here to convince the pros that agreeing to the walk-off is the normal thing to do, and when he then gets questioned because it's not actually that normal, he just ignores it and re-states its the normal thing to do. The four horsemen is supposed to talk about the topic from all perspectives, not just to exist to push a movement that doesnt even make any sense to exist. Phillip basically just came on here to recruit other pros to his impossible cause, since they have literally no power vs Riot. Completely ignoring the fact that Orgs might have financial reasons to drop their NACL roster, reasons that go beyond the salary of 5 amateur players that might not even really be trying that hard to become LCS players. If you get swayed by someone ''saying it more properly'' instead of the content of what they're actually saying, then you're the puppet, the issue is on you. Phillip wasnt responding to anything, he just came to push his narrative. Allowing someone to come on the show and do that kinda makes the show pretty fkn pointless and a massive waste of time. Most of this episode was exactly that.
Thats why its 4 horseman bro they all come at the topic from a different angle. Thorin is obviously more aggressive and doesnt let people dodge things or derail.
@@qontroL I think you’re spot on about Thorin being a bit pissed off about the convo being too focused on one narrative, but man I don’t think it’s cool to wig the fuck out on a guest like that. Thorin must know Phil is largely gonna be focusing on the narrative that suits his association, and similarly he knows Phil can’t come back at Thorin nearly as aggressively as Thorin is to him, because he has to be act professionally since he’s here to represent his association. Thorin knew these things would be true before the show, so why did he even allow Phil as a guest? He said “You weren’t my choice of guest, I dunno who’s fucking cousin you are out of this chat”, like why did he not veto Phil as a guest then? I love Thorin’s content but he had an off day on this episode.
@@Smiddigger It's like I was watching a filmschool student pitch his script for a movie about 50 teenagers that make half a mil per year playing video games. But secretly they are altruistic freedom fighters that will do anything for solidarity. Even if that means they jeopardize their own job security and income, in their already very short career. Whenever he got challenged on anything he just waved it away like ''nah, all my homies love walk-outs'' I would get fkn pissed too. Obviously Thorin isnt just making shjt up, he's heard this stuff from players. But he cant name the player for obvious reasons, and Phillip uses that to just pretend that that player doesnt exist and Thorin is making it up, so he doesnt have to discuss that perspective. Its fkn USA Politics bullshjt, Id get pissed too.
I see a lot of people criticizing Thorin in this video and I can understand. But after watching some of it again and especially after seeing how the situation developed, thorin is actually not wrong. In the 2 instances where he "looses it" he actually had asked pertinent questions that phillip simply tossed to the side not only offering "PR" responses but also by dismissing Thorin's points , which were valid. Also seeing how the situation evolved in the past few days, it becomes apparent that this has more to do with defending interests rather than actually caring about the NA scene. NACL has some of the most expensive rosters for a development league and some of the worst viership/return on investment. It seems that it is mostly used by players as a safety net rather than it serving a purpose of developing talent and during this whole conversation Philip simply refuses to even entertain this thought which to me implies he isn't arguing in good faith. Anyway, enjoyed the episode. Cheers.
I 100% agree with your comment as I too had to watch it again to understand more of the context around Thorin's tone. I wish some of the other people commenting here on how 'out of line Thorin was' or how Phillip 'owned him', realised how condescending and patronising some of Phillips' responses were sometimes, especially on the subject you mentioned above. As a long time watcher of Thorin I've realised he likes to have educated debates when there are valid arguments which include facts. He likes to ask hypothetical questions to cover all scenarios but also to provide as much insight as possible to the viewers. Phillip here was either ignoring or completely dismissing questions that he didn't want to answer (ie the NACL being a safety net like Thorin was hinting) which is fine but he did it in a condescending manner or by presenting examples or facts (ie EU football) of which he knew nothing about and were untrue just to try and 'one up' Thorin. He was almost straight up gaslighting him on some occasions (ie before the second outburst on the subject of free market) .If you notice, Thorin listens quite a lot during this episode to all the different topics being discussed, but whenever he specifically asks a question/raises an issue, Phil responds the same way every time. This is what tipped him over the edge. I also feel there is more tension behind the scenes and things that Thorin knows about regarding Phil, that haven't been discussed/mentioned here.
He rubbed Thorin the wrong way the very first minute where he responded "haven't you been doing this for a long time?" when Monte said he was the first returning guest. Can be taken the wrong way, specially a bit cheeky if you aren't really close to the hosts.
As a newer viewer that watched Richard's videos on the topic before this podcast (thus have the benefit of hindsight), the tonal mismatch between what happened and what is said here just feels really weird and does makes me question Phillip's intentions (or at least credibility) like you said.
Watched Thoorin and Monte for years, this is one of the few / first times I felt really uncomfortable with one of Thoorin's outbursts, hope he takes accountability for it off camera and possibly apologizes to his guest, came off super immature. But knowing Thoorin he'll just double down and burn bridges as normal. :/
@@Arkaine197 Gave me no joke the same vibes, with Loco I sorta understood Thorins angle because Loco could be really insufferable with his takes but here he missed the mark and made lowblow personal attack to Richard, Monte and Aram - which imo all handled the situation very well.
@@MrDrageno Oh yeah for sure, i think i saw some video somewhere about a year later where he explained that Loco wasn't doing any real research, wasn't watching the games in most of the regions and then was showing up with very little to talk about and making dumb contrarian points which was routinely getting on Thorin's nerves, so i do understand why it happened. But at the end of the day you can't just explode on people like this if you're a talk show host, it's really uncomfortable to watch, and i can't imagine it does much for the reputation of the show with potential guests. Props to the other 3 for handling it pretty proffessionally as you said though.
You guys can't be that blind to what was happening right? Thorin did get too angry but you have to have seen that Phil was being so unbelievably condescending and undermining with some of his responses to Thorin. You can't just 100% blame Thorin here.
Thorin going full unhinged on this one. Don't cut other people off and don't yell at people when they respond to what you say. The difference between Monte responding (wonderful) and Thorin responding (Old man yells at cloud) is insane. Great guest and Monte and Lewis are great as always however.
Feels like Thorin could've gotten more out of this, for himself and for the viewer, if he tried rephrasing his original hypotheticals or questions in order to get a better answer. He is usually very good at finding different angles to cut closer to the case. Was kinda surprised how hard we went here, as if taking it personally on some level. I wonder what ticked him off so badly. He put up with Loco for hundreds of hours before exploding, so something must've been off here.
@@CarlosCarlangas Phil definitely came at it from a PR angle and it seemed like he talked about things that Thorin knew to be untrue. But even then Thorin is skilled enough to go at it again from another angle or present evidence against Phils side of the argument. Instead it seems like he got really offended on a personal level. Think he should have exposed him rather than attack him. He could've really shown up Phil if he kept calm and hit him with facts.
Yeah, agreed. I normally am overall a fan of Thorin. I was surprised how much Thorin just blew up on him. At the very least Thorin should have been even more clear about what exactly he thought was nonsense and why he was getting angry. If you're a casual listener who isn't paying much attention and doesn't know the space very well, then it superficially sounds like Phillip being reasonable and Thorin just exploding at him out of nowhere. Or even better, Thorin could have said "I think what you're saying is nonsense" without exploding.
I 100% understand why guests will not come on in the future. Thorin is super hostile and then explodes and gets super personal. Say what you will about Monte, but he would never do stuff like this.
This is not the show to give apologetic responses to Riot's actions. If Philip Aram wants to issue a press release and talk about it on a podcast he can ask Travis Gafford.
@@kiresedivaneb Not sure I agree with you, but I concede that I can see your point. If we take your premise as correct, then whomever cast Philip to come on this show didn't do their homework. As Philip states over and over, he is trying to build bridges and negotiate with Riot. He calls Riot out for the things they've done wrong (lied about Academy, lied to him and his organization, etc.), but he ultimately needs a working relationship with them to strike deals, to make compromises, and to organize. I don't call this "not being real." I call this bad casting.
Thorin's ability to accept opposing viewpoints is about on par with my ability to refrain from eating that delicious candy bar sitting there right front of me
It was really just that one outburst for me. Asking how he got onto the show and implying its because hes a friend of Monte or Rich was just weird. We all know why hes the right guest to have on for this topic. Hes the head of the players association who called for a walkout which is a big part of the reason this episode happened.
@@ggregg2667 For real. That was the egregious part of thorins outburst for me. Firstly it's a lowblow personal attack on Monte and/or Richard for no fkin reason and secondly who else do you want on an episode on this topic other than Philip Aram? He has literally all the insider knowledge, I mean it's obviously biased but still, you have 3 other guys with no real skin in the game there to offset that bias and Aram is especially suited because he also knows the org side of things. Like the last thing this episode needed was a 4th guy who has only indirect inside knowledge of the matter and I dont think it takes a genius to realize that no one from Riot or the owners side would have come on the show. Also more generally I dont think his outbursts were necessary at all in their ferocity, especially the second one. I understood the angle Thorin was coming from with the first one and the pushback was needed to make Aram honest but I also didnt think Philip Aram really said or did anything that warranted that lash out by Thorin and honestly I think Aram handled it like a pro, gave a good answer and put Thorin in his place. Really weak episode by Thorin imo.
@@ggregg2667 that’s the issue he’s actively involved in the topic their discussing on one side. He is the definition of a biased guest. Don’t get me wrong I like the guy and wanted his insight but take it with a pinch of salt as he’s pushing an agenda. It should have been an impartial guest. Someone who knows about this, maybe an ex senior player or maybe the lawyer from the blizzard sexual harassment episode. While Thorin went too hard for my tastes, I could tell he did not want an active participant pushing an agenda on the show even before his outburst. Phillip is a stand up guy and a good guest but not right now, it was a mistake inviting him.
@@Zippity181 Biases aren't inherently wrong so long as it's obvious and upfront. He's introduced as the head of the PA so clearly no worries of a hidden bias. Good debates need opposing views. That can come from different biases. They are all heavily biased against Riot, as Riot has earned, that doesn't mean they shouldn't talk about Riot issues. You trying to deprive us of our anti-Riot rants?? Lol
Lol, Thorin got absolutely rattled and acted incredibly immature on this episode. Credit to Phillip Aram for conducting himself with class and maturity in the face of this behavior. I think on the whole was a great episode.
Philip completely OWNED Thorin on multiple takes in this convo. Thorin changed topics after his attacks failed and I'm glad others in the comments have noticed.
Gave me a lot of respect to Philip to be able to come bakc from such a out of nowhere personal attack on a completely unrelated subject to this podcast ^^
Everything Thorin went off about was possibly defensible except that part. If he was so against this guy being the guest… then how the fuck is he on the show? If Thorin somehow was so hands-off with this episode that he didn’t know about the topic/guest until it was already locked in, then that’s an issue to take up with the other guys after the show. It was out of pocket to say some of that shit to Phil and part of me can’t believe they didn’t cut it out of the video.
Not only that but it is also an underhanded insult on the competence of Monte and Richard, suggesting they invited him on due nepotism or other reasons and not because he would make a good guest for the topic (spoiler: he was an absolute fantastic fucking guest) . Thorin likes to position him as some stoic, impartial figure in esports but in this episode he looked like an incredibly immature and insecure person.
Phillip handled this beautifully. He's walking between three minefields. The salty ass boomers like myself most of the viewers here and the three interviewers, The LCS players he's actually trying to help, The Orgs Riot and the highly paid players. Crazy balancing act man GLHF
he handled it beatifully but never really gave actual answer to what Thorin wanted to know; cognitive dissonance issue. which seems to have made Thorin get really agitated and made him go unhinged in this episode lol. but on the merit of the issue Phillip have not convinced me. I don't think much will happen because Phillip does not seem to have solved cognitive dissonance issue the players have and it's a HUGE problem. history already showed lcs players will always succumb to individual short term gains over whole group's long term gain if it means they need to sacrifice a bit in short term. that cognitive dissonance player must overcome has not been answer here. Thorin really seem to want to get answer out of that side from Phillip on how he will solve that issue but Phillip never does. He gives out moral/ethnical obligation reasons but ok? everyone knows that, players know that but that's the definition of cognitive dissonance? they know what is "right" and what they need to do but their individual short term sacrifice is holding them back from doing so. so Phillip "won" the battle because he knows how to keep it diplomatic and professional but he lost the war. great, Phillip lost gracefully. who cares? you lost the war! i rather he wins the war even if it means he had to get dirty, argue, yell, and etc... I would love to be proven wrong but Phillip have not convinced me in this episode. we will see what happens in June as Phillip has said.
man this has aged beautifully. Phillip aram got sniffed out by thorin immediately upon meeting him, and now 1 month later thorin is completely justified in coming after him so aggressively. guy turned out to be a total spineless snake.
Very interesting episode for 2 reasons. 1 This is an important topic and very interested in forming an opinion if this loss of the mandated challenger thing is really the end of the future of lcs. 2. Thoorin really showing us how fickle he is, many times he had a problem with the guest he would remind them that, this is his show, he didnt choose him as a guest. I feel thoorin is the guy or becoming the guy he always rants against when talking about having tough skin at least. He doesnt have to agree with the guest but when he reminds the guest of who's show it is and how he didnt choose him as a guest.... Whats that say about himself? is he feeling hurt?
It's also such a weird guest to call out. Philip can't really speak freely, he is bound to have to be diplomatic with Riot and cannot burn that bridge. He also represents the LCS players who.... are completely reliant on Riot. You can point out that he is constricted, but to throw a spergie fit like Thorin did here just makes him look daft. This also applies to the Ayn Rand free market tantrum. It is Philip's job to advocate for players, not to advocate for Jack to make money by cutting his Academy team. It's like going into a court room and being like "why is this defense attorney defending his client so vigorously even though he is clearly guilty??" Thorin is angry that Philip is doing his job and it makes him look like a child lol.
@@cowley3044 I wouldn't say like a child, but definitely a bit unhinged. He should have taken a chill pill after the first time he was aggressive toward phil. Props to phill for handling thoorin really well, the only other person who ive seen handle thoorins crap well is carlos the ex g2 owner.
@@Shrekbob88 Yeah I don't mean a child in that it's the kind of fit a child throws sorry, just that it is a childish look at the world. If he thought about it for a few seconds instead of freaking out, it's pretty obvious why Philip cannot engage in the way Thorin wants him to because it would be bad for his ability to advance his mission as the player association representative (and in turn, prevent him from being able to do the things Thorin presumably also wants like Danny investigation, TSM, etc.)
@@Shrekbob88 Thorin has always had thin skin even dating back to the cs 1.6 days. He always gets away with it by getting aggressive with the guest, even though nowhere near as bad as in this episode, and they cave. Props to Phillip for keeping his composure, I probably would've thanked Monte and Richard for the invitation before leaving the call. There's a reason why small dogs always bark the loudest, the same applies to people and Thorin is an example of that even though I enjoy watching some of his content sporadically.
Thorin is so great in so many ways, but fuck me he doesn't handle push back well. He is hearing and responding to stuff the guy didn't even say. Credit to the other guy for staying mature and calm, especially after the second rant where Thorin really went in.
So Thorin's view was that Aram was being condenscending to him but from looking at the comments it seems like most would disagree with him. To me it just seemed like Thorin wanted Aram to say the players are greedy/selfish/lazy and when he said the opposite it pissed Thorin off. The thing is Thorin has never been good at conflict, he just takes any disagreement as a insult to him unless literally Monte or Dom does it in that case he doesn't care since he is friends with them.
@@tamim3319 Yeah I would agree with this. As you say, he has a habit of taking disagreement, and particularly criticism of his thinking, as a personal attack. What's frustrating about that is that Thorin himself gives both barrels when he disagrees with people or critiques their ideas - so much so that he often does make it personal or insulting. While he is weirdly sensitive about this stuff, he still seemed particularly angsty for this video. I dunno if he was having a crummy day or something got said before they went on, but it's like his patience was already gone before they got started. Aram seemed as surprised by it as the audience.
To be fair to Thorin, it did feel like both instances that triggered the outbreaks that Aram wasn't willing to entertain the questions Thorin asked. He responded to them in the shortest way possible and tried to redirect the conversation to somewhere he wanted it to go. I still think Thorin went to far in his second outburst, but they were not unprovoked.
@@rstuurman While I agree Thorin's outburst were still a bit too much. As he was saying why they invited Aram and he is a nobody when the topic is about the LCS walkout and he is the head of the PA.
Rich is so on point about how franchise leagues only work when you have the money and infrastructure behind them that the NFL, NBA and MLB have. That system could never work in an esport anyways, the player turnover isn't high enough, the rosters are too small and so you cant draft in a whole bunch of new young players every year, basically only 5 players per team ever get to play.
The esports leagues are too small to support the level of turnover needed to have the franchise system be dynamic enough. If you could sustain a 30 team league it would be good because you have a lot fewer of the guys are just on the cusp of being able to play. I also think larger leagues make strategic experimentation easier because while you will have your dominant legacy orgs, you can play with much more variance in philosophy for teams on the bubble instead of having teams that look totally doomed fight for 8th place. But there is also just the fact that its way different when it comes to subs, nobody has really had success putting a 6th man who is some type of specialist in like you could in the traditional sports.
Thorin must have some kinda beef with this guy. Taking things way too personally and insisting on trying to put the dude in his place or something. When somebody goes in on someone and the person on the receiving end replies with calm confusion, it makes for an uncomfortable situation 😅
Prolly eating things Dom tells him about how salaries were too high for academy and how the system shouldn’t exist but those same Orgs are paying 3+ million for imports to not even make it to worlds… like overpaying imports isn’t the problem and saving pennies on academy is the real economic issue for these orgs… Sad cus I feel thorin can have some good points when he knows about certain topics but on here he doesn’t, this isn’t CS and no matter how many analogies he tries to connect in other sports/esports they are different completely
So true on the last point. When Phillip didn't reciprocate the energy it felt so uncomfortable and made thorin look kinda whack for his weird outburst.
Thorins one of my favorite people to watch but he was way off the mark this episode with how he treated phillip. Respect to phillip for not letting it shake him though
Thorin lost the plot on this one obv he felt slighted for the import question being “dodged” but Phillip was trying to answer the question and thorin just didn’t like the answer about players being so kumbaya. But the fact of the matter is barely any lcs players actually know how to leverage their worth and just “play game for money” and would be gased to have an import on their team which is frankly what Phillip is saying. It’s not even like I agree with a lot of what he is saying but thorin was like weirdly offended by his answers
I don't think it was tuly dodging to begin with, what Aram was coming into was sort of "I don't think players entertain that idea in the current situation". The answer was more of a "your hypothetical can be true or not but it's not even on the table". My guess onto why Thorin got so angry was he felt invalidated.
I guess the question is like, how far ahead do these 17-22 year old guys, getting paid to play video games + room and board, think ahead? Do they think "this great player is coming to our team, we're winning LCS" or "too many imports, I'm losing my job security" I thin if you're an older player, the job security worries will begin to eat at you. But the 17-19 year olds are probably still in their "just happy to be here" phase. It's going to depend on the player, and personality, and how much money they're making from playing, sponsorships, or streaming.
@@Laticia1990 Is fine being a bit cynical but man, that point from Thorin.... Unless that kid is a psyco nobody thinks like that when you are 19. You are rightfully naive at that age and more when you are getting paid to play videogames. He is talking like they were working at a bank or something like it.
I agree thorin went overboard but I can see his frustrations. I like Phillip as a guest but he should not have been on this podcast. You cannot be impartial while hosting one sides leadership figure. This was basically free media supporting the players association. They did a decent job keeping it in check but that was always a losing fight due to guest selection and it biases the whole thing. My guess is Thorin did not want him for this reason, was overruled and it boiled over. In future I’d recommend either going for a guest not actively involved in the dispute or breaking the format; have 5 horsemen with guests from each side if at all possible.
You and others make out that it was 100% Thorin's fault but you have to admit that some of Phil's responses were extremely condescending. That would trigger me too tbf.
@@tempname4039 Maybe you are right but remember Thoorin is a professional aswell and this is not how you have a discussion. Many people are not comfortable with such aggressive confrontations and some might just cave in cause they don’t feel open to defend their opinions cause they know there is someone who will react unpredictably to their points. The only person who came out professional out of this confrontation was Philip, most people won’t accept such disrespect. Being invited to a discussion channel and then the second you push back one of the hosts just tells you that he didn’t even want to invite you and he is only here because the people he works with want him here is such a disrespectful thing to say. Just remember one of the most important aspect of a healthy discussion is being civil and Thoorin let his emotions affect his work.
Thorins outbursts were so bizarre this episode "oh you win again phillip" like what? A discussion shouldnt have a winner and that outburst specifically rly says alot about Thorin
thorin was awful this episode he argued from a state of emotion rather then logic at the expense of the show. If i was any guest thinking about getting on 4 horsemen i would really consider not participating.
bro why are you even in this delusional universe where you would ever be considered as an option to guest on any show like this? your newest video is low elo LoL gameplay content from 5 years ago. touch grass
Great episode. Will say, as someone who usually loves spicy Thorin it did feel a little needlessly hostile at times. I thought Phillip handled himself masterfully and really important topics were covered at length.
Well as it's now come out, apparently philip was just blatantly lying about numbers/facts while pushing blatant propaganda that wasn't even supported by most of the players
Have you ever been setting up a team fight at drag soul and 5 seconds before drag spawns, your Pyke support flash-hook engages on the enemy 5-0-5 Sion and pulls him into your full AD triple marksmen comp? That was like what watching 2:16:45 feels like.
Thorin rants about this being communism, and the current ecosystem being a free market when franchising is literally protectionism and a example of anti-free Market ideals smh. Very emotional unfortunate to here him lose it.
They, that are pro union and pro labor and pro salaries, going full "libertarian" and "free-market" was cringe worthy. I felt actually uncomfortable with that one.
@@jacobitosuperstar Yeah, it's odd, at first I thought Thorin was making counter-points for the sake of it, because that's how he "interviews" essentially. He may not necessarily believe the arguments he's making, and they're usually pro-union. Then he just started going off.
Richard and Thorin haven’t a fucking clue what capitalism or communism is. Richard thinks using your control and power to take all the money is capitalism. He also wants them to use anti-monopoly laws to target companies that aren’t monopolies. But “I believe in free market principles”.
I need to correct Monte here. This season OCE players had to decide between PCS and NA residency, new rookies begin with PCS residency, so that talent pool is no longer available apart from ppl who specifically stayed with NA residency.
1:31:40 I fully agree with Phillip, and I've seen episodes of this like where Monte a Thorin agree with this. The region was more fun when it was more localized rather than focused on international success. It was great when the scene was entertaining, the players knew each other, they trash talked, there were beef and grudge matches. Yeah, at the end of the year NA would get assblasted at Worlds, but at least it was a regional fun product. Now the region is full of bitter people trying to be competitive at worlds and the fun is gone.
This is one of the best moments for me personally on this show. When I was young, I watched almost all of Travis' interviews and then at some point I just didn't like it anymore. When Thorin said "He definitely does a lot of interviews" it instantly struck me, I just liked it because it was new for me and I was young and stupid, but in the end it was just a lot interviews, not really good interviews... xD Edit: Omg, If they honor Richards request of never giving an interview to Travis anymore I would love that xD
I think a lot of people are missing the point as to why Thorin was mad. The whole point of this series is to address the difficult topics without fear or deceit. Phillip addressed it with both. He chose a complete PR move to instead back himself and make himself and his goals look honorable. I think him acting as if the players were these saints that weren't at all selfishly motivated was incredibly strange as that absolutely has to be on the discussion table when addressing a walkout. As thorin brought up, where was this support for danny? An investigation? We all know thats code for just being either dragged out until no one cares or being swept under the rug. Although Thorin definitely had an extreme reaction, it was only in response to the deceit and fear Phiillip showed which is particularly agregious to Thorin. And saying it's out of line what thorin said to his own friends that he's had for over a decade; I would simply mind my business. They've surely had bigger issues than that they've resolved
How do you know it was deceit? You're accusing him of lying. Where is your evidence of this? Do you think the players association did not support the investigations, even after Monte confirmed they did? Do you think him saying that players should accept a good contract if offered is him trying to claim that players are altruistic? Did you think vulcan is specifically trying to work behind the scenes to reduce vicla's contract or potentially get him kicked for his own benefit? Unless you present some evidence, this comment reads as Phil proposed things that did not align with your world view so you concluded he must be lying. This is practically the definition of being closed minded. The is also how Thorins remarks came off and why there are hundreds of comments on this video saying Thorin was not having a good faith conversation.
Throin definitely got triggered, but Phil was definitely trying to come out smelling like roses. I get not wanting to cross players but when discussing accountability, players MUST come up. Richard definitely found the middle ground though between pinning Phil down and not coming across bitchy I feel.
Phililip had me a bit worried, his facial expression and tone of voice didn;t change once while thoorin was popping off, either a gigachad or serial killer the amount of icewater he has running through his veins.
I mean he probably sat in the same room as Reginald and Mark Merrill multiple times over the years, after having to witness and handle these two immature twats, Thorins rant was probably just another day on the job x)
Honestly found it quite disturbing that Monte and Rich did nothing to push back against Thorin being so rude against their guest. Felt really cowardly IMO. If I was Phillip i would not have continued the show after being attacked by one of the hosts like this unless the others made it very clear that Thorin was in the wrong.
Honestly? The fact that Richard, Monte and Philip Aram carried on in a calm nearly unbothered manner put Thorin more into his place than anything else they could have done. Aram handled that outburst like a champ imo.
Also, on the second outburst it sounds like Monte was gonna push back but Phillip asks him to let him reply and handled it well. I gotta give props to Phillip, he stayed on point and didn’t get drawn into anything that was unnecessary or might derail the overarching themes.
@@MrDrageno 100%, it's quite impressive how unperturbed Philip seemed by Thorin's outburst. This can be quite triggering when someone comes at you for no reason. I think Thorin did not want the answers Philip gave and both times it was the same thing. He basically wanted Philip to call the players greedy selfish but he refused to and that triggered Thorin. He also completely made a mockery of Thorin but it's Thorin's own fault for even proposing that someone with a 7 figure salary would take a paycut for random other people.
Phillip actually didn't make a good point to why save the challenger teams. The only known players from there are Danny and Jojo and danny didn't even come from challenger. It's a waste of money overall. The orgs are given money but it doesn't mean they should spend it all in league. They bought the spots to make money not to throw every single profit into league
I’m pretty sure his point was that it’s better than nothing, which is what riot have basically ended up with as a result of this decision. He full on admitted that the nacl wasn’t perfect but getting rid of it while having no feasible plans to replace it with something of equal or greater value is what makes it dumb.
Because Orgs spending millions on Imports and super high salaries for washed LCS players that don’t perform domestically is not a waste of money right? Challengers is definitely the problem here sure bro..
I think the amount of comments here re: thorin goes to show that out of the hundreds (prob thousands) of episodes he has been on and this is one of the few where he went a bit far is kind of impressive someone of Thorins personality type has kept it together for so long.
It almost feels like Thorin felt personally slighted by the phrasing of Philip's point and as soon as that happened, he tuned out until he could just ram into the conversation and try to rip him a new one. I'm confused what he expected from the head of the LCSPA. Philip isnt gonna just reveal all of his plans and shit talk Riot and the past of the LCS. He actually believes in the LCS (Or says he does, because of course he does) and he seems like the type of person who isn't gonna harp on the past bullshit and is instead going to do everything possible to create something that isnt like the past bullshit
Thorin is really unreasonably antagonistic at times, someone needs to reel him in. Really sad that he can't fathom when someone engages with him in good faith and he feels the need to go off in this manner.
Funniest part is him saying who invited this guy over and why he was invited. Like brother this is an episode about the LCS walkout, who better to bring than the player
The guest organized a walkout and instituted a Martin Luther style demand for reforms, and you're surprised that he criticizes them publicly? Tell me, do you walk outside every single day and faint because you're surprised that the sky turned blue after the sun rose?
This was kind of embarrassing from Thorin imo. My politics make me side with Philip more, he at least tried to have a discussion with Thorin who was more interested in "winning" the arguements, and was generally really combative, not even trying to understand things from Phillip's viewpoint. They very clearly have different ideas of what might work, but Thorin's inability to keep things civil was really telling.
I have to assume Thorin has some stance against unions in general based on just how unhinged he got. Or he thinks taking it out on Phil will in some cosmic way help balance the scales of how Danny was mistreated while, in Duncan's opinion, the players association has done nothing.
@@lordhawkeye With respect to the Danny situation, it seems like they did do nothing, and while that's not a good look at all, I think they're also playing within really strict confines, as Phil has been ready to say himself. But yeah, it's not the first time Thorin has shown his inability or unwillingness to understand things from another perspective. I really love most of his content largely because I think he's an amazing host and a stellar interviewer, but when I see some of these moments, or some of his takes on twitter, it shows me that sometimes, knowing more about people that you like might not be the best thing.
@@arcravis Phil did address the Danny situation when Duncan tried to throw it in his face. He admitted an internal investigation is still taking place and that the Players Association are taking part in it. As it is currently on going he is not at liberty to say anything. To someone without a bias that is a fair answer. But Duncan clearly had a bug up his ass and that answer was not good enough for him. As for Duncan as a host I am getting tired of his shtick at this point. "I always say...." "The joke is right..." and so on before saying something he thinks is amazing to go with his set up but it rarely hits hard. Really he just uses the same catch phrases and it is old news to me. Monte I somehow still have not gotten bored of yet. Perhaps it has more to do with him very rarely flying off the handle or that he is able to have a fun conversation with no matter who the guest is. Duncan's strength is one where he works with a script like his reflections series. Pre-recorded Duncan is best Duncan. When he does these live shows where he might not have had enough time to do much research going in he comes off as just ok.
I know Thorin loves to be the heel in every scenario but he just missed the mark on this one, and not just when he popped off at the guest, but later he said the players should chip in to make the league better... What kind of stupid idea is that??? There's no way he even believes in that shit, he just says this shit to be contentious but he ends making zero sense.
"Am I not allowed to make money" Thorin going full libertarian was a dissapointment, for sure in the short term the secondary league won't be profitable, but it is what it has to be done if you want a NA scene. If you want a full import league with the best players then go and make your own ffs. Like, this is about people wanting to make something fun and interesting for themselves and Thorin is pandering to these orgs that have already mishandled millions of dollars. If what we want is the best return of profit then why are we even in esports? Maybe we should've just invested in wallstreet or something.
And they that are pro union, pro labor rights and pro salaries that reflect the earnings of the companies. Coming up with those arguments was out of character. Maybe Lewis wasn't an Union Leader, but an Union Buster.
@@jacobitosuperstar Thinking about it maybe he was just playing devil's advocate, as he seemed pleased with Phillip's response (he came prepared for sure)
@@ssenkrad67 I know, I was making a point that, for that part of the conversation, it seemed like he used his argument of "I just want to see the best competition" and that would just make NA a secondary league for not-so-good Koreans or not-so-good Chinese.
I mean, I kind of do understand his take. Would you start a business if it consisted of throwing your money down the drain ? It is also true that, as far as I can tell, north american fans support whoever wins. Not whoever has NA players. It's the exact same thing EU players say when they come back. You can't talk about issues, you have to be nice or people get offended. Most of the fans/players don't give a flying fuck about the NA scene. And if they do, they're not willing to do anything to reach that goal, they just don't want to offend people. If I had millions of dollars, why would I invest in a LCS spot ? Low viewership, and I either throw away money or I'm completely irrelevant . And the north american 2nd tier league has failed and continues to fail. You can only name Jojo and Danny as decent examples of NA talent. Danny already retired and Jojo has never done anything on the international stage. While the outburst was uncalled for, I do see what he's getting at. What he's saying is, if everybody needs to win all the time, everyone will fail. That's what he was saying when he mentionned that everyone looking out for his own interest is what will bring them to compromise and profit togetether. It's not the owner or riot's place to just throw away money to academy players when the system is worthless.
Regardless if I agree with what he’s saying or not, Phil took Duncan’s unprovoked verbal assault like a damn professional. Duncan can disagree with him on every level but find a way to make the questions get him to answer directly if that’s what you want. You’re the professional journalist. Still a thorin fan but reel it in just a touch mate.
Good god what a garbage first hour. In the first hour, the only piece of new information I learned is that the teams got an advance on their rev share from Riot this year. This show has done a great job of marketing itself and has become a go-to in situations where shit hits the fan in esports. Lately, however, when these come out, it feels like the conversations veer more and more towards grinding ALL of the old axes that everyone on the show seems to hold near and dear, and that they seem to have built an identity out of, instead of having meaningful and nuanced conversations about the situation at hand. Thorin can't seem to get out of his own way. He can't seem to listen to what anyone else is saying because he's too busy frothing at the mouth about the preconceived notions he's bringing into every conversation, instead of being present. Ain't no way I'm sitting through the remaining 2 hours of this. WTF.
Just pick the interesting time stamps and fast forward through Thorin rants and it's still pretty good imo. I think they at least went harder on Aram and the PA than other interviewers/commentators which is refreshing, even if Thorin did it in a REALLY unproductive manner
@@podefunder the time stamps are far apart. It's not worth my time. It's not refreshing, it's ass. They pretend to go hard on every episode but when I think back on it, it's mainly Monte and Richard who bring up real points when they manage to get a fucking word in but most of the time Thorin thinks he accomplished something if he makes some quip or insult or regurgitates some tired NA hater talking point and acts like it's irrefutable OR all of them devolve the episode into a Travis Gafford hater circle jerk. Waste. Of. Time.
Thorin isn't perfect socially sometimes, it happens, it isn't a big deal. There could have been aggravating factors in the background we don't know about, I would assume so given thorin was pretty testy from the start.
if i may make a suggestion, i recommend making the 4HM logo more visible in the thumbnail, and changing the title to mention it earlier, so it is immediately obvious the the video overview of the channel. i don't know about others, but i didn't even realize a new video had been made.
I guess the fact that the owners of this channel are astonished that breaking point exist went full circle now huh. Why was this episode aired, I will never know
Brings up Jojo and Danny as an example of a NACL success story ...? Aren't NEITHER of them brought up through the NACL but talent scouted by Peter Dunn instead?
Jojo did came up through academy for my understanding and they are talking that Danny wouldn't be burn out if he had participated before in the NACL before the LCS, because they would know how he reacts under stress
@@jacobitosuperstar I thought Jojo was discovered first and then put through their academy just to give him more prep? I guess I'm splitting hairs with it but I just don't feel Jojo is a good example of NACL talent compared to say Chime who would've been a better example imo.
@@kissblade8587 Dude, I literally don't understand. If the talent was discovered and put on the NACL, where else could he have gone?? How people come into academy according to you?
@@Laticia1990 Jojo is from academy and he is cheaper than everyone else on the team. With Danny was the counter example, that he came from amateur to the league without passing through academy, and if he was put in first in academy, they would have notice his stress problems before he went to the LCS team and him being burned out. Giving them more time to work with him before moving him into the LCS or just dropping him before all of this happened.
I agree with thorin. that second blow-up he had, if you listen to what he actually said, he was spot on. This guy has dodged all the hard questions thorin put to him and then when thorin tries to extend an olive branch in the conversation, he just dismisses it. I felt he was completely justified
the thing is that phillip can't realy humour thorin even if he agrees because he's not representing himself but the players association, thorin's question are mostly all good and packed but answering them will phillip lose any weight or credebility because riot will use that against him when ( if )they meet
@@meknassimohamedamine82 fair enough but then my question is why agree to go on this podcast which is infamous for being committed to the truth and calling out bullshit, especially when the podcast includes Thorin, a person who is known for his reputation of being a grill-form journalist.
I'm not holding my breath on this will work. time and time again, it's been all talk but when it really comes down, the player association/players always cave because they put priority on their individual gains more than long group gain. they never sacrifice anything on their end when it means short term loss but long term gain. There is CLEAR cognitive dissonance that must be solved here. which is why I can understand Thorin being frustrated because Phillip never seems to accept the premise that cognitive dissonance is very strong here and is a huge problem he must solve and Thorin is asking question to know how Phillip will overcome this cognitive dissonance; individual player's "selfishness" of their own short term gain over the player as a group's long term gain because unless he somehow overcome that, players will never do it. Phillip essentially doesn't have answer for this cognitive dissonance, at least never gave convincing answer and just goes on a moral/ethical obligation reasoning. gave a lot of word salad. this seems to have really triggered Thorin. result wise, Phillp has not convinced me on the "how" he will overcome this challenge and really unite the players. I would love to be proven wrong but since Phillip doesn't seems to have a way to solve cognitive dissonance issue, my expectation is they will not do anything. Thorin wanted to get an answer on that over and over, which Phillip has failed to answer but "won" because he stayed calm and was more diplomatic compare to Thorin. yeah you stayed calm and professional, but you lost the actual war. who gives a shit how you lost the war? you lost the war gracefully... i rather you win the war where you had to get on the floor, yell, argue, get hands dirty.
i think thorin made some good points , be it misunderstanding or a careful approach to the answer i felt like thorin was justified for explosively decompressing as he did . i felt like the point he made was being swiped away or misinterpreted repeatedly which caused him to get triggered harder and harder .
The problem is, Thorin's question is "how does the PA feel about NA only slots". Aram openly rejects the premise of 'the PA has formally discussed this before' that's why Thorin's question is hypothetical. Aram's answer is that NA residents would not advocate for this because they would not want to undermine their import teammates/friends which is the hypothetical answer. Thorin question just wasn't good. Aram needed to clarify his answer because he is representing the PA not just his own opinions. Instead of just moving on, Thorin completely ruined the flow of the episode. I stop watching shortly after this so I might miss some more context provided later.
@@WB650 maybe it was phrased poorly but thorin did get a few cracks at it and at different angles . but also i think the main point was that he's heard this many times before and almost always the actions go the opposite of those words . what i think i got was thorin was hoping for a more direct answer but wasnt getting it , either by choice or by force by phillip .
@@WB650 maybe i did misinterpreted Phillip's answer but the gist of it is that Thorin wants to know if any and all of this is even worth it , because he wants to only see the best of the best play , i share the same sentiment . i definitely need at least another go at this show just to understand the points made more thoroughly but at this point i feel like people are overreacting at thorin just as he did towards phillip
@Pollux 1741 im not sure what you mean by "worth it", Phil answered that the PA is not interested in making LCS na-only and do not discuss it indepth. Thats literally a clear answer. I don't think there is much overreaction going on at the channel. Thorin looks very bad in this video and is obviously tilted. I think its fair he is called out for it.
I appreciate they say franchising is bad now. But somehow the storytelling seems off for me. I dont know which context it was anymore, bute before franchising existed, at least thats what I remember and can get called out on it, at least Monte was highly advertising for franchising. Im not sure what Thorrin thought about it at that time though, but he couldve been in favour as well
Travis continues to prove he'll snitch on anything to prevent free speech as long as he benefits from it basically. Getting someone else's journalistic post taken down on reddit.
Thorium lashed out because Philip was not charitably engaging with the points, but points scoring and trying to “win” the arguments. It was not an honest vulnerable discussion from his side, but as Philip stated, a use of this show as part of the “bully pulpit”. A tool to get people on their side.
that's Thoorin's wholse shtick though, he barrels through points that are taken to extremes to prove a point then tries to tie it back into root cause analysis to add more weight to what he's saying. In this circumstance for example he was using some ridiculous notion of free market economics to spur his argument, his guest pushed back and said "well if you like free market economy, the LCS is not that currently with franchising". Thooorin's response was to jump to reducto ad absurdum and claim that if the Aram loves free market then why is he against removing all imports etc. The guest quite rightly says that is not part of the current discussion, because the guest is focused entirely on the original topic of the health of the league. Thooorin doesn't like this as making this point quite rightly makes his point look very silly (which it was) which is why he then goes off .Anytime someone might look smarter than him or someone who can handle their shit more than him he just goes off like a fucking child in this video. Its probably part of his condition but as such he should also take more caution to stop himself being like this. I guarantee you that he is like this 100% of the time irl too, which is why he is a terminally online psycho.
Am i missing how there were such major "L"s from thorin in this episode? Thorin asks why have protection for non imports. Philip says "well they have that in eu football". Ok? So whst are the merits for that lol. philip does elaborate a bit more on how he believes locality is imperative to the scene, but his retort re eu football didnt actually engage in any of the rationale of why its done rather than "ya but they do it in real sports" which is (ironically) the typical playbook from riot when defending their decisions. Thorin then asks about the competing priorities for the players within the association and philip basically says we dont really think about that. ... What lol. Seems like a major consideration for the players association that represents clear categories of tiers of players in addition to none local players that would have their own interests and is specifically relevant to this conversation as we are trying to get collective bargaining out of a disparate group of players with varying value in the context of the league. I will say I am impressed Phil kept his cool and thought he was a great guest even though i kind of completely disagree on this entire initiative and the proposal that players should form a walk out so shit players can keep getting a pay cheque. Under the guise of "this is fundamental to the league". Personally find there is literally no evidence to support that all with almost no academy success stories and virtually no interest for academy players other than to fill a spot at the minimum possible cost. Thought thorins angry outburst was over the top but consistent with how he gets annoyed with people sidestepping his points. What am i missing about the "major Ls" thorin is taking? Am i misrepresenting this? Please provide timestamps and i'll try to understand better where you're coming from. Great episode but personally think this is the most retarded strike the players could take in light of all the bullshit that riot has pulled over 10 years of lcs and even prior to the lcs.
Thorin talking about whatboutism wan't fun and less when he went full "free market", which is just absurd. Phil showed some backbone, wasn't afraid of speak about Travis and Riot and stood by the players. Even Monte and Richard had to hold Thorin down becase he was just talking retarded shit. And don't let me start with his "clarifications"... LMAO
Gonna say it: I'm with Thorin on this one. There's only one way this guy swings. Not gonna lie, I hope Aram is never on the podcast ever again. Bunch of PR speak and only sees one angle. Also arguing stuff like "you should be against that" is just intellectually dishonest. Nothing to do with the situation at hand, trying to give other outs but they won't be considered because "the teams and riot should fix this". I don't disagree but you have to start living in the real world, right? Look for other ways to do it. Also the fact that you can just say "Travis Gafford has his flaws but he's a good guy" is pretty much the deathknell for this guy. I can't believe you just heard what he's done and you go "yeah, nah, he's okay". I guess that's what working with Riot does to you...
Thorin could have benefitted from 1 hour beforehand placing his freezepipe in the freezer. Great episode as always!
or having meth taking out of there.
@@jacobitosuperstarThoorin living rent free in your head. Quickly counted 10+ comments about him by you. Take a deep breath and lay off the meth yourself (:
Best comment! I am a thorin fan but that like hard pushback after I think Phillip directly answered his import question I was like he needed to chill, like the freeze pipe glycerin chamber
Makes me wonder how many guests specifically refuse to join the show because of Thorin. That really was a bit much to be on-air. "Keeping it real" should have some delineations.
not the guy u wanna have a beer with
Im a big Thorin fan and this was dissapointing. Philip understandably wanted to talk about this issue and answered Thorins questions about import rules. Thorin should ask more specific questions if he really wanted different answers. But the way he articulated himself was unwarranted. Thorins second explosion came out of no where imo.
Agreed, was actually uncomfortable to watch and was relatively indefensible from him. Still, can't get it right 100% of the time and he's no exception - just hope he reigns it in a bit going forwards.
It’s because Thorin and Richard talk “free market principles “ but then say the builders should prop up the lazys by sacrificing what they earned. Also, specific to Richard, he believes in wedging in inferior people for the sake of diversity.
Yea the first one at least made sense. The second one even made me go wtf as someone who typically enjoys Thorin’s candidness
Dude, when he went full libertarian and "free market" was just cringe worthy.
@@nosuitsgiven what are you talking about. lol. What builders are you referring to?
Comments flaming Thorin here sure aged like milk as per always
I don’t mind thorin grilling the guest but telling the guy he didn’t want him on the show was a step too far that has nothing to do with the topic.
Agreed. Maybe Thorin could've sat this one out? This felt weird.
Thorin, when you cut off someone who's responding to you or arguing against what you're saying enough times, it makes your stance look weak. That's even more true, when that person makes a point of waiting till you're done to respond.
The more I watch the show the tougher it is to listen to with how unhinged Thorin is being, berating someone for responding to their point, trying to put them down and what he porbably thinks as 'putting them in their place'. It just highlights his own insecurity more than anything. Contrasting this with how Monte responded when Phil corrected him on something, the maturity difference is night and day.
Thorin is frustrated because he wants to talk about the actual topic, from all perspectives. Phil only came on here to convince the pros that agreeing to the walk-off is the normal thing to do, and when he then gets questioned because it's not actually that normal, he just ignores it and re-states its the normal thing to do.
The four horsemen is supposed to talk about the topic from all perspectives, not just to exist to push a movement that doesnt even make any sense to exist. Phillip basically just came on here to recruit other pros to his impossible cause, since they have literally no power vs Riot. Completely ignoring the fact that Orgs might have financial reasons to drop their NACL roster, reasons that go beyond the salary of 5 amateur players that might not even really be trying that hard to become LCS players.
If you get swayed by someone ''saying it more properly'' instead of the content of what they're actually saying, then you're the puppet, the issue is on you. Phillip wasnt responding to anything, he just came to push his narrative. Allowing someone to come on the show and do that kinda makes the show pretty fkn pointless and a massive waste of time. Most of this episode was exactly that.
Thats why its 4 horseman bro they all come at the topic from a different angle. Thorin is obviously more aggressive and doesnt let people dodge things or derail.
@qontroL straight facts. Why can't plebs think things through and arrive at this conclusion it's mind boggling😂😂
@@qontroL I think you’re spot on about Thorin being a bit pissed off about the convo being too focused on one narrative, but man I don’t think it’s cool to wig the fuck out on a guest like that. Thorin must know Phil is largely gonna be focusing on the narrative that suits his association, and similarly he knows Phil can’t come back at Thorin nearly as aggressively as Thorin is to him, because he has to be act professionally since he’s here to represent his association.
Thorin knew these things would be true before the show, so why did he even allow Phil as a guest? He said “You weren’t my choice of guest, I dunno who’s fucking cousin you are out of this chat”, like why did he not veto Phil as a guest then?
I love Thorin’s content but he had an off day on this episode.
@@Smiddigger It's like I was watching a filmschool student pitch his script for a movie about 50 teenagers that make half a mil per year playing video games. But secretly they are altruistic freedom fighters that will do anything for solidarity. Even if that means they jeopardize their own job security and income, in their already very short career.
Whenever he got challenged on anything he just waved it away like ''nah, all my homies love walk-outs''
I would get fkn pissed too. Obviously Thorin isnt just making shjt up, he's heard this stuff from players. But he cant name the player for obvious reasons, and Phillip uses that to just pretend that that player doesnt exist and Thorin is making it up, so he doesnt have to discuss that perspective. Its fkn USA Politics bullshjt, Id get pissed too.
I see a lot of people criticizing Thorin in this video and I can understand. But after watching some of it again and especially after seeing how the situation developed, thorin is actually not wrong. In the 2 instances where he "looses it" he actually had asked pertinent questions that phillip simply tossed to the side not only offering "PR" responses but also by dismissing Thorin's points , which were valid. Also seeing how the situation evolved in the past few days, it becomes apparent that this has more to do with defending interests rather than actually caring about the NA scene. NACL has some of the most expensive rosters for a development league and some of the worst viership/return on investment. It seems that it is mostly used by players as a safety net rather than it serving a purpose of developing talent and during this whole conversation Philip simply refuses to even entertain this thought which to me implies he isn't arguing in good faith. Anyway, enjoyed the episode. Cheers.
I 100% agree with your comment as I too had to watch it again to understand more of the context around Thorin's tone. I wish some of the other people commenting here on how 'out of line Thorin was' or how Phillip 'owned him', realised how condescending and patronising some of Phillips' responses were sometimes, especially on the subject you mentioned above. As a long time watcher of Thorin I've realised he likes to have educated debates when there are valid arguments which include facts. He likes to ask hypothetical questions to cover all scenarios but also to provide as much insight as possible to the viewers. Phillip here was either ignoring or completely dismissing questions that he didn't want to answer (ie the NACL being a safety net like Thorin was hinting) which is fine but he did it in a condescending manner or by presenting examples or facts (ie EU football) of which he knew nothing about and were untrue just to try and 'one up' Thorin. He was almost straight up gaslighting him on some occasions (ie before the second outburst on the subject of free market) .If you notice, Thorin listens quite a lot during this episode to all the different topics being discussed, but whenever he specifically asks a question/raises an issue, Phil responds the same way every time. This is what tipped him over the edge. I also feel there is more tension behind the scenes and things that Thorin knows about regarding Phil, that haven't been discussed/mentioned here.
He rubbed Thorin the wrong way the very first minute where he responded "haven't you been doing this for a long time?" when Monte said he was the first returning guest. Can be taken the wrong way, specially a bit cheeky if you aren't really close to the hosts.
As a newer viewer that watched Richard's videos on the topic before this podcast (thus have the benefit of hindsight), the tonal mismatch between what happened and what is said here just feels really weird and does makes me question Phillip's intentions (or at least credibility) like you said.
Watched Thoorin and Monte for years, this is one of the few / first times I felt really uncomfortable with one of Thoorin's outbursts, hope he takes accountability for it off camera and possibly apologizes to his guest, came off super immature. But knowing Thoorin he'll just double down and burn bridges as normal. :/
You didn't see the end of Listen Loco?
@@Arkaine197 Yes and it was completely understandable. Fuck Loco.
@@Arkaine197 Gave me no joke the same vibes, with Loco I sorta understood Thorins angle because Loco could be really insufferable with his takes but here he missed the mark and made lowblow personal attack to Richard, Monte and Aram - which imo all handled the situation very well.
@@MrDrageno Oh yeah for sure, i think i saw some video somewhere about a year later where he explained that Loco wasn't doing any real research, wasn't watching the games in most of the regions and then was showing up with very little to talk about and making dumb contrarian points which was routinely getting on Thorin's nerves, so i do understand why it happened. But at the end of the day you can't just explode on people like this if you're a talk show host, it's really uncomfortable to watch, and i can't imagine it does much for the reputation of the show with potential guests. Props to the other 3 for handling it pretty proffessionally as you said though.
You guys can't be that blind to what was happening right? Thorin did get too angry but you have to have seen that Phil was being so unbelievably condescending and undermining with some of his responses to Thorin. You can't just 100% blame Thorin here.
Thorin going full unhinged on this one. Don't cut other people off and don't yell at people when they respond to what you say. The difference between Monte responding (wonderful) and Thorin responding (Old man yells at cloud) is insane. Great guest and Monte and Lewis are great as always however.
The way Thorin and Aram interacted felt so hostile, one of my least favorite episodes so far
Thorin messed up on this one
@@endodouble6691 Thorin is yelling at him constantly while he's trying to respond, it is seriously bad.
Nah, that shit was mad entertaining
Tbh the guy did dodge a lot of what he was asking, but Thorin's lack of patience was surprising nonetheless
Feels like Thorin could've gotten more out of this, for himself and for the viewer, if he tried rephrasing his original hypotheticals or questions in order to get a better answer. He is usually very good at finding different angles to cut closer to the case. Was kinda surprised how hard we went here, as if taking it personally on some level. I wonder what ticked him off so badly. He put up with Loco for hundreds of hours before exploding, so something must've been off here.
the Loco stuff is spot on lol. I feel like he was some how triggered because of the guest doing an interview with Travis before
The dude wasn't being real and made references to things he didn't understand so thorin got triggered
@@CarlosCarlangas Phil definitely came at it from a PR angle and it seemed like he talked about things that Thorin knew to be untrue. But even then Thorin is skilled enough to go at it again from another angle or present evidence against Phils side of the argument. Instead it seems like he got really offended on a personal level. Think he should have exposed him rather than attack him. He could've really shown up Phil if he kept calm and hit him with facts.
Yeah, agreed. I normally am overall a fan of Thorin. I was surprised how much Thorin just blew up on him.
At the very least Thorin should have been even more clear about what exactly he thought was nonsense and why he was getting angry. If you're a casual listener who isn't paying much attention and doesn't know the space very well, then it superficially sounds like Phillip being reasonable and Thorin just exploding at him out of nowhere. Or even better, Thorin could have said "I think what you're saying is nonsense" without exploding.
this was a pretty tough watch at points, still appreciate the candid way the horsemen spoke
Rare Thorin miss on a few of the rants. Still great content
You can always tell when Thorin is having trouble at home
I wish we had timestamps for every Thorin rant this episode.
I 100% understand why guests will not come on in the future. Thorin is super hostile and then explodes and gets super personal. Say what you will about Monte, but he would never do stuff like this.
I mean the dude wasn't being real someone had to call him out
@@CarlosCarlangas Philip Aram wasn't being real? If so, can you elaborate?
This is not the show to give apologetic responses to Riot's actions. If Philip Aram wants to issue a press release and talk about it on a podcast he can ask Travis Gafford.
@@kiresedivaneb Thorin was just being an ass on this one. Even Monte and Richard hold him off. He came in HOT. Maybe problems at home???.
@@kiresedivaneb Not sure I agree with you, but I concede that I can see your point. If we take your premise as correct, then whomever cast Philip to come on this show didn't do their homework. As Philip states over and over, he is trying to build bridges and negotiate with Riot. He calls Riot out for the things they've done wrong (lied about Academy, lied to him and his organization, etc.), but he ultimately needs a working relationship with them to strike deals, to make compromises, and to organize. I don't call this "not being real." I call this bad casting.
Thorin's ability to accept opposing viewpoints is about on par with my ability to refrain from eating that delicious candy bar sitting there right front of me
I'd hate to have a conversation with him, seriously
I'd love it, but I think that's because I'm just as stubborn, we'd have a massive argument, go outside for a fight, then get a beer 🤣
is the candy ok or inside your belly already? 😅
Thorin really missed the boat here. Glad Monte and Richard were keeping level heads without steamrolling the guest.,
It was really just that one outburst for me. Asking how he got onto the show and implying its because hes a friend of Monte or Rich was just weird. We all know why hes the right guest to have on for this topic. Hes the head of the players association who called for a walkout which is a big part of the reason this episode happened.
@@ggregg2667 For real. That was the egregious part of thorins outburst for me. Firstly it's a lowblow personal attack on Monte and/or Richard for no fkin reason and secondly who else do you want on an episode on this topic other than Philip Aram? He has literally all the insider knowledge, I mean it's obviously biased but still, you have 3 other guys with no real skin in the game there to offset that bias and Aram is especially suited because he also knows the org side of things. Like the last thing this episode needed was a 4th guy who has only indirect inside knowledge of the matter and I dont think it takes a genius to realize that no one from Riot or the owners side would have come on the show.
Also more generally I dont think his outbursts were necessary at all in their ferocity, especially the second one. I understood the angle Thorin was coming from with the first one and the pushback was needed to make Aram honest but I also didnt think Philip Aram really said or did anything that warranted that lash out by Thorin and honestly I think Aram handled it like a pro, gave a good answer and put Thorin in his place. Really weak episode by Thorin imo.
Its there group dynamic, good cop bad cop and a referee in a octagon
@@ggregg2667 that’s the issue he’s actively involved in the topic their discussing on one side. He is the definition of a biased guest. Don’t get me wrong I like the guy and wanted his insight but take it with a pinch of salt as he’s pushing an agenda.
It should have been an impartial guest. Someone who knows about this, maybe an ex senior player or maybe the lawyer from the blizzard sexual harassment episode.
While Thorin went too hard for my tastes, I could tell he did not want an active participant pushing an agenda on the show even before his outburst. Phillip is a stand up guy and a good guest but not right now, it was a mistake inviting him.
@@Zippity181 Biases aren't inherently wrong so long as it's obvious and upfront. He's introduced as the head of the PA so clearly no worries of a hidden bias. Good debates need opposing views. That can come from different biases.
They are all heavily biased against Riot, as Riot has earned, that doesn't mean they shouldn't talk about Riot issues. You trying to deprive us of our anti-Riot rants?? Lol
Lol, Thorin got absolutely rattled and acted incredibly immature on this episode. Credit to Phillip Aram for conducting himself with class and maturity in the face of this behavior. I think on the whole was a great episode.
Monte and Lewis as always a master class.
Ya I like Thorin's content but he was way off base today. He asked questions and Philip answered but it seems those are not the answers Thorin wanted.
Philip completely OWNED Thorin on multiple takes in this convo. Thorin changed topics after his attacks failed and I'm glad others in the comments have noticed.
Gave me a lot of respect to Philip to be able to come bakc from such a out of nowhere personal attack on a completely unrelated subject to this podcast ^^
Philip is being diplomatic while Thorin comes off as immature.
more calm != own. Childish logic. But yes, Thorin did lose his shit there.
Mr. Aram's tone about Riot has certainly changed after dealing with them for two years. (:
Telling your guest they don’t belong on the cast definitely seems like an effective strategy for recruiting future guests
Thorin needed to leave meth out of his FreezePipe.
I think the way Phillip handled it showed he definitely can hold his own on the cast.
Everything Thorin went off about was possibly defensible except that part. If he was so against this guy being the guest… then how the fuck is he on the show? If Thorin somehow was so hands-off with this episode that he didn’t know about the topic/guest until it was already locked in, then that’s an issue to take up with the other guys after the show. It was out of pocket to say some of that shit to Phil and part of me can’t believe they didn’t cut it out of the video.
Not only that but it is also an underhanded insult on the competence of Monte and Richard, suggesting they invited him on due nepotism or other reasons and not because he would make a good guest for the topic (spoiler: he was an absolute fantastic fucking guest) . Thorin likes to position him as some stoic, impartial figure in esports but in this episode he looked like an incredibly immature and insecure person.
Phil was implying Thorin was racist for a hypothetical about imports. I can see why Thorin would be irritated.
Thorinn can never complain about esports players being Diva’s after this episode
Phillip handled this beautifully. He's walking between three minefields. The salty ass boomers like myself most of the viewers here and the three interviewers, The LCS players he's actually trying to help, The Orgs Riot and the highly paid players. Crazy balancing act man GLHF
Bro is NOT paid enough for this
he handled it beatifully but never really gave actual answer to what Thorin wanted to know; cognitive dissonance issue.
which seems to have made Thorin get really agitated and made him go unhinged in this episode lol.
but on the merit of the issue Phillip have not convinced me. I don't think much will happen because Phillip does not seem to have solved cognitive dissonance issue the players have and it's a HUGE problem.
history already showed lcs players will always succumb to individual short term gains over whole group's long term gain if it means they need to sacrifice a bit in short term. that cognitive dissonance player must overcome has not been answer here.
Thorin really seem to want to get answer out of that side from Phillip on how he will solve that issue but Phillip never does. He gives out moral/ethnical obligation reasons but ok? everyone knows that, players know that but that's the definition of cognitive dissonance? they know what is "right" and what they need to do but their individual short term sacrifice is holding them back from doing so.
so Phillip "won" the battle because he knows how to keep it diplomatic and professional but he lost the war. great, Phillip lost gracefully. who cares? you lost the war!
i rather he wins the war even if it means he had to get dirty, argue, yell, and etc...
I would love to be proven wrong but Phillip have not convinced me in this episode. we will see what happens in June as Phillip has said.
man this has aged beautifully. Phillip aram got sniffed out by thorin immediately upon meeting him, and now 1 month later thorin is completely justified in coming after him so aggressively. guy turned out to be a total spineless snake.
Very interesting episode for 2 reasons. 1 This is an important topic and very interested in forming an opinion if this loss of the mandated challenger thing is really the end of the future of lcs. 2. Thoorin really showing us how fickle he is, many times he had a problem with the guest he would remind them that, this is his show, he didnt choose him as a guest.
I feel thoorin is the guy or becoming the guy he always rants against when talking about having tough skin at least. He doesnt have to agree with the guest but when he reminds the guest of who's show it is and how he didnt choose him as a guest.... Whats that say about himself? is he feeling hurt?
It's also such a weird guest to call out. Philip can't really speak freely, he is bound to have to be diplomatic with Riot and cannot burn that bridge. He also represents the LCS players who.... are completely reliant on Riot. You can point out that he is constricted, but to throw a spergie fit like Thorin did here just makes him look daft. This also applies to the Ayn Rand free market tantrum. It is Philip's job to advocate for players, not to advocate for Jack to make money by cutting his Academy team. It's like going into a court room and being like "why is this defense attorney defending his client so vigorously even though he is clearly guilty??" Thorin is angry that Philip is doing his job and it makes him look like a child lol.
@@cowley3044 I wouldn't say like a child, but definitely a bit unhinged. He should have taken a chill pill after the first time he was aggressive toward phil. Props to phill for handling thoorin really well, the only other person who ive seen handle thoorins crap well is carlos the ex g2 owner.
@@Shrekbob88 Yeah I don't mean a child in that it's the kind of fit a child throws sorry, just that it is a childish look at the world. If he thought about it for a few seconds instead of freaking out, it's pretty obvious why Philip cannot engage in the way Thorin wants him to because it would be bad for his ability to advance his mission as the player association representative (and in turn, prevent him from being able to do the things Thorin presumably also wants like Danny investigation, TSM, etc.)
@@Shrekbob88 Could you link video?
@@Shrekbob88 Thorin has always had thin skin even dating back to the cs 1.6 days. He always gets away with it by getting aggressive with the guest, even though nowhere near as bad as in this episode, and they cave. Props to Phillip for keeping his composure, I probably would've thanked Monte and Richard for the invitation before leaving the call.
There's a reason why small dogs always bark the loudest, the same applies to people and Thorin is an example of that even though I enjoy watching some of his content sporadically.
Thorin is so great in so many ways, but fuck me he doesn't handle push back well. He is hearing and responding to stuff the guy didn't even say. Credit to the other guy for staying mature and calm, especially after the second rant where Thorin really went in.
So Thorin's view was that Aram was being condenscending to him but from looking at the comments it seems like most would disagree with him. To me it just seemed like Thorin wanted Aram to say the players are greedy/selfish/lazy and when he said the opposite it pissed Thorin off. The thing is Thorin has never been good at conflict, he just takes any disagreement as a insult to him unless literally Monte or Dom does it in that case he doesn't care since he is friends with them.
@@tamim3319 Yeah I would agree with this. As you say, he has a habit of taking disagreement, and particularly criticism of his thinking, as a personal attack. What's frustrating about that is that Thorin himself gives both barrels when he disagrees with people or critiques their ideas - so much so that he often does make it personal or insulting.
While he is weirdly sensitive about this stuff, he still seemed particularly angsty for this video. I dunno if he was having a crummy day or something got said before they went on, but it's like his patience was already gone before they got started. Aram seemed as surprised by it as the audience.
To be fair to Thorin, it did feel like both instances that triggered the outbreaks that Aram wasn't willing to entertain the questions Thorin asked. He responded to them in the shortest way possible and tried to redirect the conversation to somewhere he wanted it to go. I still think Thorin went to far in his second outburst, but they were not unprovoked.
@@rstuurman While I agree Thorin's outburst were still a bit too much. As he was saying why they invited Aram and he is a nobody when the topic is about the LCS walkout and he is the head of the PA.
Rich is so on point about how franchise leagues only work when you have the money and infrastructure behind them that the NFL, NBA and MLB have.
That system could never work in an esport anyways, the player turnover isn't high enough, the rosters are too small and so you cant draft in a whole bunch of new young players every year, basically only 5 players per team ever get to play.
The esports leagues are too small to support the level of turnover needed to have the franchise system be dynamic enough. If you could sustain a 30 team league it would be good because you have a lot fewer of the guys are just on the cusp of being able to play. I also think larger leagues make strategic experimentation easier because while you will have your dominant legacy orgs, you can play with much more variance in philosophy for teams on the bubble instead of having teams that look totally doomed fight for 8th place. But there is also just the fact that its way different when it comes to subs, nobody has really had success putting a 6th man who is some type of specialist in like you could in the traditional sports.
Reson why franchise leagues don't work in esport is bc teams don't own the league but the developer does.
Thorin must have some kinda beef with this guy. Taking things way too personally and insisting on trying to put the dude in his place or something. When somebody goes in on someone and the person on the receiving end replies with calm confusion, it makes for an uncomfortable situation 😅
Prolly eating things Dom tells him about how salaries were too high for academy and how the system shouldn’t exist but those same Orgs are paying 3+ million for imports to not even make it to worlds… like overpaying imports isn’t the problem and saving pennies on academy is the real economic issue for these orgs…
Sad cus I feel thorin can have some good points when he knows about certain topics but on here he doesn’t, this isn’t CS and no matter how many analogies he tries to connect in other sports/esports they are different completely
So true on the last point. When Phillip didn't reciprocate the energy it felt so uncomfortable and made thorin look kinda whack for his weird outburst.
To be fair that's because he was avoiding 90% of questions and just talking bullshit
Thorins one of my favorite people to watch but he was way off the mark this episode with how he treated phillip. Respect to phillip for not letting it shake him though
you can push back with out insulting someone you know, a bit far
Thorin lost the plot on this one obv he felt slighted for the import question being “dodged” but Phillip was trying to answer the question and thorin just didn’t like the answer about players being so kumbaya. But the fact of the matter is barely any lcs players actually know how to leverage their worth and just “play game for money” and would be gased to have an import on their team which is frankly what Phillip is saying. It’s not even like I agree with a lot of what he is saying but thorin was like weirdly offended by his answers
I don't think it was tuly dodging to begin with, what Aram was coming into was sort of "I don't think players entertain that idea in the current situation". The answer was more of a "your hypothetical can be true or not but it's not even on the table". My guess onto why Thorin got so angry was he felt invalidated.
I guess the question is like, how far ahead do these 17-22 year old guys, getting paid to play video games + room and board, think ahead? Do they think "this great player is coming to our team, we're winning LCS" or "too many imports, I'm losing my job security"
I thin if you're an older player, the job security worries will begin to eat at you. But the 17-19 year olds are probably still in their "just happy to be here" phase. It's going to depend on the player, and personality, and how much money they're making from playing, sponsorships, or streaming.
@@Laticia1990 Is fine being a bit cynical but man, that point from Thorin.... Unless that kid is a psyco nobody thinks like that when you are 19. You are rightfully naive at that age and more when you are getting paid to play videogames. He is talking like they were working at a bank or something like it.
I agree thorin went overboard but I can see his frustrations.
I like Phillip as a guest but he should not have been on this podcast. You cannot be impartial while hosting one sides leadership figure. This was basically free media supporting the players association. They did a decent job keeping it in check but that was always a losing fight due to guest selection and it biases the whole thing.
My guess is Thorin did not want him for this reason, was overruled and it boiled over. In future I’d recommend either going for a guest not actively involved in the dispute or breaking the format; have 5 horsemen with guests from each side if at all possible.
This would have been a great 3 horsemen episode.
I agree, one of thehorseman was a bit too on the nose
You and others make out that it was 100% Thorin's fault but you have to admit that some of Phil's responses were extremely condescending. That would trigger me too tbf.
@@tempname4039 Maybe you are right but remember Thoorin is a professional aswell and this is not how you have a discussion. Many people are not comfortable with such aggressive confrontations and some might just cave in cause they don’t feel open to defend their opinions cause they know there is someone who will react unpredictably to their points.
The only person who came out professional out of this confrontation was Philip, most people won’t accept such disrespect. Being invited to a discussion channel and then the second you push back one of the hosts just tells you that he didn’t even want to invite you and he is only here because the people he works with want him here is such a disrespectful thing to say.
Just remember one of the most important aspect of a healthy discussion is being civil and Thoorin let his emotions affect his work.
@@alisajwani4538 Yeah that's fair. You sound like you have a balanced view.
Thorins outbursts were so bizarre this episode "oh you win again phillip" like what? A discussion shouldnt have a winner and that outburst specifically rly says alot about Thorin
Can’t take Thorin seriously when he loses control like that multiple times.
thorin was awful this episode he argued from a state of emotion rather then logic at the expense of the show. If i was any guest thinking about getting on 4 horsemen i would really consider not participating.
Ye. Unless you 100% argue the same point on everything as Thorin.
bro why are you even in this delusional universe where you would ever be considered as an option to guest on any show like this? your newest video is low elo LoL gameplay content from 5 years ago. touch grass
I feel Philip showed a level of self control that most of us wouldn't.
sure but if ur a negotiator this is like the bar minimum of what you should handle, if you can't you're notto to defend people.
Come back to this after watching thorins most recent video. You will understand. Its really hard when you know someone is full of shit
Great episode.
Will say, as someone who usually loves spicy Thorin it did feel a little needlessly hostile at times. I thought Phillip handled himself masterfully and really important topics were covered at length.
Well as it's now come out, apparently philip was just blatantly lying about numbers/facts while pushing blatant propaganda that wasn't even supported by most of the players
Have you ever been setting up a team fight at drag soul and 5 seconds before drag spawns, your Pyke support flash-hook engages on the enemy 5-0-5 Sion and pulls him into your full AD triple marksmen comp? That was like what watching 2:16:45 feels like.
Thorin rants about this being communism, and the current ecosystem being a free market when franchising is literally protectionism and a example of anti-free Market ideals smh. Very emotional unfortunate to here him lose it.
They, that are pro union and pro labor and pro salaries, going full "libertarian" and "free-market" was cringe worthy. I felt actually uncomfortable with that one.
@@jacobitosuperstar Yeah, it's odd, at first I thought Thorin was making counter-points for the sake of it, because that's how he "interviews" essentially. He may not necessarily believe the arguments he's making, and they're usually pro-union.
Then he just started going off.
Richard and Thorin haven’t a fucking clue what capitalism or communism is. Richard thinks using your control and power to take all the money is capitalism. He also wants them to use anti-monopoly laws to target companies that aren’t monopolies. But “I believe in free market principles”.
Thorin subscribes to the "dark enlighment" enough said. Dude is an idiot.
I need to correct Monte here. This season OCE players had to decide between PCS and NA residency, new rookies begin with PCS residency, so that talent pool is no longer available apart from ppl who specifically stayed with NA residency.
I love that the NACL article came out while this show was on so we can get live reactions. It's like Riot weirdly did us a solid
I feel like there have to be people working at riot who are fans of the show, who pushed for the article to be released while they were live.
@@FilterBySubgenre 1:41:11
Good conversation between three adults and thorin
If riot is going to let nacl/the amateur scene die. Let someone else do it. Or give people license to run different tournaments
Thorin is massivly tripping in thie convo
True it's hard to listen to. If you go 'Fuck me for asking questions' after someone asnwers your question, well, what are you even doing man lmao
Ok but imagine thorin talking without the monte laugh track behind it.. monte really saves the tension 😅
1:31:40 I fully agree with Phillip, and I've seen episodes of this like where Monte a Thorin agree with this. The region was more fun when it was more localized rather than focused on international success.
It was great when the scene was entertaining, the players knew each other, they trash talked, there were beef and grudge matches. Yeah, at the end of the year NA would get assblasted at Worlds, but at least it was a regional fun product. Now the region is full of bitter people trying to be competitive at worlds and the fun is gone.
Either or, but NA is neither. Neither competitive, nor fun, just stuck in limbo since forever.
Man, Thorin's rant on this episode wasnt it...
This is one of the best moments for me personally on this show. When I was young, I watched almost all of Travis' interviews and then at some point I just didn't like it anymore. When Thorin said "He definitely does a lot of interviews" it instantly struck me, I just liked it because it was new for me and I was young and stupid, but in the end it was just a lot interviews, not really good interviews... xD
Edit: Omg, If they honor Richards request of never giving an interview to Travis anymore I would love that xD
I think a lot of people are missing the point as to why Thorin was mad. The whole point of this series is to address the difficult topics without fear or deceit. Phillip addressed it with both. He chose a complete PR move to instead back himself and make himself and his goals look honorable. I think him acting as if the players were these saints that weren't at all selfishly motivated was incredibly strange as that absolutely has to be on the discussion table when addressing a walkout. As thorin brought up, where was this support for danny? An investigation? We all know thats code for just being either dragged out until no one cares or being swept under the rug. Although Thorin definitely had an extreme reaction, it was only in response to the deceit and fear Phiillip showed which is particularly agregious to Thorin. And saying it's out of line what thorin said to his own friends that he's had for over a decade; I would simply mind my business. They've surely had bigger issues than that they've resolved
How do you know it was deceit? You're accusing him of lying. Where is your evidence of this?
Do you think the players association did not support the investigations, even after Monte confirmed they did?
Do you think him saying that players should accept a good contract if offered is him trying to claim that players are altruistic?
Did you think vulcan is specifically trying to work behind the scenes to reduce vicla's contract or potentially get him kicked for his own benefit?
Unless you present some evidence, this comment reads as Phil proposed things that did not align with your world view so you concluded he must be lying. This is practically the definition of being closed minded. The is also how Thorins remarks came off and why there are hundreds of comments on this video saying Thorin was not having a good faith conversation.
Thorin reminding me to unsubscribe from anything he touches
I credit phillip for coming on the 4 horseman. I would like to hear more conversations from these 4 on esports or league content. this is gold
Thorin was way out of line this episode. Multiple unwarranted outbursts totally governed by emotion.
Did the lawn and cleaned the bathroom yesterday. Keep it coming! Regards from my wife.
Throin definitely got triggered, but Phil was definitely trying to come out smelling like roses. I get not wanting to cross players but when discussing accountability, players MUST come up. Richard definitely found the middle ground though between pinning Phil down and not coming across bitchy I feel.
Phililip had me a bit worried, his facial expression and tone of voice didn;t change once while thoorin was popping off, either a gigachad or serial killer the amount of icewater he has running through his veins.
I mean he probably sat in the same room as Reginald and Mark Merrill multiple times over the years, after having to witness and handle these two immature twats, Thorins rant was probably just another day on the job x)
thorin try not to sperg out for no reason challenge impossible
Honestly found it quite disturbing that Monte and Rich did nothing to push back against Thorin being so rude against their guest. Felt really cowardly IMO. If I was Phillip i would not have continued the show after being attacked by one of the hosts like this unless the others made it very clear that Thorin was in the wrong.
Honestly? The fact that Richard, Monte and Philip Aram carried on in a calm nearly unbothered manner put Thorin more into his place than anything else they could have done. Aram handled that outburst like a champ imo.
Also, on the second outburst it sounds like Monte was gonna push back but Phillip asks him to let him reply and handled it well. I gotta give props to Phillip, he stayed on point and didn’t get drawn into anything that was unnecessary or might derail the overarching themes.
@@MrDrageno 100%, it's quite impressive how unperturbed Philip seemed by Thorin's outburst. This can be quite triggering when someone comes at you for no reason. I think Thorin did not want the answers Philip gave and both times it was the same thing. He basically wanted Philip to call the players greedy selfish but he refused to and that triggered Thorin. He also completely made a mockery of Thorin but it's Thorin's own fault for even proposing that someone with a 7 figure salary would take a paycut for random other people.
Phillip actually didn't make a good point to why save the challenger teams. The only known players from there are Danny and Jojo and danny didn't even come from challenger. It's a waste of money overall. The orgs are given money but it doesn't mean they should spend it all in league. They bought the spots to make money not to throw every single profit into league
I’m pretty sure his point was that it’s better than nothing, which is what riot have basically ended up with as a result of this decision. He full on admitted that the nacl wasn’t perfect but getting rid of it while having no feasible plans to replace it with something of equal or greater value is what makes it dumb.
Because Orgs spending millions on Imports and super high salaries for washed LCS players that don’t perform domestically is not a waste of money right?
Challengers is definitely the problem here sure bro..
I think the amount of comments here re: thorin goes to show that out of the hundreds (prob thousands) of episodes he has been on and this is one of the few where he went a bit far is kind of impressive someone of Thorins personality type has kept it together for so long.
This is true. I do not know much about Phil but I assume there is some sort of prior problem between the two on Thorin's end
Opon a second watch it would appear thorin is suffering from a psycidelic trip induced by a freeze pipe
put to much meth on his.
Thorin looks like a 10 year old girl when someone disagrees with him
It almost feels like Thorin felt personally slighted by the phrasing of Philip's point and as soon as that happened, he tuned out until he could just ram into the conversation and try to rip him a new one.
I'm confused what he expected from the head of the LCSPA. Philip isnt gonna just reveal all of his plans and shit talk Riot and the past of the LCS. He actually believes in the LCS (Or says he does, because of course he does) and he seems like the type of person who isn't gonna harp on the past bullshit and is instead going to do everything possible to create something that isnt like the past bullshit
i think he expected Phillip to know what he's talking about instead of not saying anything
thoorin went over the line once, otherwise i really appreciated his candor, and how well phillip handled the occasional very aggressive tone.
Thorin is really unreasonably antagonistic at times, someone needs to reel him in. Really sad that he can't fathom when someone engages with him in good faith and he feels the need to go off in this manner.
Funniest part is him saying who invited this guy over and why he was invited. Like brother this is an episode about the LCS walkout, who better to bring than the player
Ye, this aged very well for the dawg himself thorin
2:17:05 Actually unhinged lmao
Lmao Monte cringing so hard
Just look at montes face lmao
Surprised the guest had balls to talk shit about Riot.
The guest organized a walkout and instituted a Martin Luther style demand for reforms, and you're surprised that he criticizes them publicly? Tell me, do you walk outside every single day and faint because you're surprised that the sky turned blue after the sun rose?
R.I.P. Thooorin
Some rare Thorin L's on this one
Read @Khaled comment
Rare?
Thorin have rare W's with mostly L's what you mean
I like that Thooorin slaps down mumbo jumbo when he hears it.
This was kind of embarrassing from Thorin imo.
My politics make me side with Philip more, he at least tried to have a discussion with Thorin who was more interested in "winning" the arguements, and was generally really combative, not even trying to understand things from Phillip's viewpoint.
They very clearly have different ideas of what might work, but Thorin's inability to keep things civil was really telling.
I have to assume Thorin has some stance against unions in general based on just how unhinged he got. Or he thinks taking it out on Phil will in some cosmic way help balance the scales of how Danny was mistreated while, in Duncan's opinion, the players association has done nothing.
@@lordhawkeye With respect to the Danny situation, it seems like they did do nothing, and while that's not a good look at all, I think they're also playing within really strict confines, as Phil has been ready to say himself.
But yeah, it's not the first time Thorin has shown his inability or unwillingness to understand things from another perspective. I really love most of his content largely because I think he's an amazing host and a stellar interviewer, but when I see some of these moments, or some of his takes on twitter, it shows me that sometimes, knowing more about people that you like might not be the best thing.
@@arcravis Phil did address the Danny situation when Duncan tried to throw it in his face. He admitted an internal investigation is still taking place and that the Players Association are taking part in it. As it is currently on going he is not at liberty to say anything. To someone without a bias that is a fair answer. But Duncan clearly had a bug up his ass and that answer was not good enough for him.
As for Duncan as a host I am getting tired of his shtick at this point. "I always say...." "The joke is right..." and so on before saying something he thinks is amazing to go with his set up but it rarely hits hard. Really he just uses the same catch phrases and it is old news to me. Monte I somehow still have not gotten bored of yet. Perhaps it has more to do with him very rarely flying off the handle or that he is able to have a fun conversation with no matter who the guest is.
Duncan's strength is one where he works with a script like his reflections series. Pre-recorded Duncan is best Duncan. When he does these live shows where he might not have had enough time to do much research going in he comes off as just ok.
I know Thorin loves to be the heel in every scenario but he just missed the mark on this one, and not just when he popped off at the guest, but later he said the players should chip in to make the league better... What kind of stupid idea is that??? There's no way he even believes in that shit, he just says this shit to be contentious but he ends making zero sense.
I thought Thorin was good at pressing Phil here some of his points came off as whataboutism but I think he got Phil to show some backbone
Oh damn thorin 😂I’m at 40 mins and I’m sweating. Hard watch need a hard hit from that freezepipe
Thorin keeps having to "clarify" lmao
"Am I not allowed to make money"
Thorin going full libertarian was a dissapointment, for sure in the short term the secondary league won't be profitable, but it is what it has to be done if you want a NA scene. If you want a full import league with the best players then go and make your own ffs. Like, this is about people wanting to make something fun and interesting for themselves and Thorin is pandering to these orgs that have already mishandled millions of dollars. If what we want is the best return of profit then why are we even in esports? Maybe we should've just invested in wallstreet or something.
And they that are pro union, pro labor rights and pro salaries that reflect the earnings of the companies. Coming up with those arguments was out of character. Maybe Lewis wasn't an Union Leader, but an Union Buster.
here's the problem with"go make your own league" chief: RIOT DOESN'T ALLOW INDEPENDENT LEAGUES.
@@jacobitosuperstar Thinking about it maybe he was just playing devil's advocate, as he seemed pleased with Phillip's response (he came prepared for sure)
@@ssenkrad67 I know, I was making a point that, for that part of the conversation, it seemed like he used his argument of "I just want to see the best competition" and that would just make NA a secondary league for not-so-good Koreans or not-so-good Chinese.
I mean, I kind of do understand his take. Would you start a business if it consisted of throwing your money down the drain ? It is also true that, as far as I can tell, north american fans support whoever wins. Not whoever has NA players. It's the exact same thing EU players say when they come back. You can't talk about issues, you have to be nice or people get offended. Most of the fans/players don't give a flying fuck about the NA scene. And if they do, they're not willing to do anything to reach that goal, they just don't want to offend people.
If I had millions of dollars, why would I invest in a LCS spot ? Low viewership, and I either throw away money or I'm completely irrelevant . And the north american 2nd tier league has failed and continues to fail. You can only name Jojo and Danny as decent examples of NA talent. Danny already retired and Jojo has never done anything on the international stage. While the outburst was uncalled for, I do see what he's getting at. What he's saying is, if everybody needs to win all the time, everyone will fail. That's what he was saying when he mentionned that everyone looking out for his own interest is what will bring them to compromise and profit togetether. It's not the owner or riot's place to just throw away money to academy players when the system is worthless.
i think its the funniest thing in the world, when thorin ask to let him finish a sentence XD not hating its just funny :D
Regardless if I agree with what he’s saying or not, Phil took Duncan’s unprovoked verbal assault like a damn professional. Duncan can disagree with him on every level but find a way to make the questions get him to answer directly if that’s what you want. You’re the professional journalist. Still a thorin fan but reel it in just a touch mate.
Good god what a garbage first hour. In the first hour, the only piece of new information I learned is that the teams got an advance on their rev share from Riot this year.
This show has done a great job of marketing itself and has become a go-to in situations where shit hits the fan in esports. Lately, however, when these come out, it feels like the conversations veer more and more towards grinding ALL of the old axes that everyone on the show seems to hold near and dear, and that they seem to have built an identity out of, instead of having meaningful and nuanced conversations about the situation at hand.
Thorin can't seem to get out of his own way. He can't seem to listen to what anyone else is saying because he's too busy frothing at the mouth about the preconceived notions he's bringing into every conversation, instead of being present.
Ain't no way I'm sitting through the remaining 2 hours of this. WTF.
Just pick the interesting time stamps and fast forward through Thorin rants and it's still pretty good imo. I think they at least went harder on Aram and the PA than other interviewers/commentators which is refreshing, even if Thorin did it in a REALLY unproductive manner
@@podefunder the time stamps are far apart. It's not worth my time.
It's not refreshing, it's ass. They pretend to go hard on every episode but when I think back on it, it's mainly Monte and Richard who bring up real points when they manage to get a fucking word in but most of the time Thorin thinks he accomplished something if he makes some quip or insult or regurgitates some tired NA hater talking point and acts like it's irrefutable OR all of them devolve the episode into a Travis Gafford hater circle jerk.
Waste. Of. Time.
Thorin isn't perfect socially sometimes, it happens, it isn't a big deal. There could have been aggravating factors in the background we don't know about, I would assume so given thorin was pretty testy from the start.
telling the guest that it's your show and you say what you want seems very rude for no reason
if i may make a suggestion, i recommend making the 4HM logo more visible in the thumbnail, and changing the title to mention it earlier, so it is immediately obvious the the video overview of the channel.
i don't know about others, but i didn't even realize a new video had been made.
I guess the fact that the owners of this channel are astonished that breaking point exist went full circle now huh. Why was this episode aired, I will never know
Seems like Thorin hates everyone these days. The fans, Riot, the players, the team owners, casters. journalists/interviewers. Am I missing anyone?
You skipped how he likely hates himself, too. I would, in his case.
Brings up Jojo and Danny as an example of a NACL success story ...? Aren't NEITHER of them brought up through the NACL but talent scouted by Peter Dunn instead?
Jojo did came up through academy for my understanding and they are talking that Danny wouldn't be burn out if he had participated before in the NACL before the LCS, because they would know how he reacts under stress
@@jacobitosuperstar I thought Jojo was discovered first and then put through their academy just to give him more prep? I guess I'm splitting hairs with it but I just don't feel Jojo is a good example of NACL talent compared to say Chime who would've been a better example imo.
@@kissblade8587 Dude, I literally don't understand. If the talent was discovered and put on the NACL, where else could he have gone??
How people come into academy according to you?
Was it an NCAL example, or just an example of rookie players being cheaper to pay than veterans?
@@Laticia1990 Jojo is from academy and he is cheaper than everyone else on the team.
With Danny was the counter example, that he came from amateur to the league without passing through academy, and if he was put in first in academy, they would have notice his stress problems before he went to the LCS team and him being burned out. Giving them more time to work with him before moving him into the LCS or just dropping him before all of this happened.
That Richard Lewis rant was satisfying to listen to
Thorin shit the bed more than he has done in a while. It wasn't Destiny walk out levels of bad but it felt rough.
I agree with thorin. that second blow-up he had, if you listen to what he actually said, he was spot on. This guy has dodged all the hard questions thorin put to him and then when thorin tries to extend an olive branch in the conversation, he just dismisses it. I felt he was completely justified
the thing is that phillip can't realy humour thorin even if he agrees because he's not representing himself but the players association, thorin's question are mostly all good and packed but answering them will phillip lose any weight or credebility because riot will use that against him when ( if )they meet
@@meknassimohamedamine82 fair enough but then my question is why agree to go on this podcast which is infamous for being committed to the truth and calling out bullshit, especially when the podcast includes Thorin, a person who is known for his reputation of being a grill-form journalist.
All the randoms in the comments are aging poorly lol
I'm not holding my breath on this will work. time and time again, it's been all talk but when it really comes down, the player association/players always cave because they put priority on their individual gains more than long group gain. they never sacrifice anything on their end when it means short term loss but long term gain. There is CLEAR cognitive dissonance that must be solved here.
which is why I can understand Thorin being frustrated because Phillip never seems to accept the premise that cognitive dissonance is very strong here and is a huge problem he must solve and Thorin is asking question to know how Phillip will overcome this cognitive dissonance; individual player's "selfishness" of their own short term gain over the player as a group's long term gain because unless he somehow overcome that, players will never do it.
Phillip essentially doesn't have answer for this cognitive dissonance, at least never gave convincing answer and just goes on a moral/ethical obligation reasoning. gave a lot of word salad. this seems to have really triggered Thorin.
result wise, Phillp has not convinced me on the "how" he will overcome this challenge and really unite the players. I would love to be proven wrong but since Phillip doesn't seems to have a way to solve cognitive dissonance issue, my expectation is they will not do anything. Thorin wanted to get an answer on that over and over, which Phillip has failed to answer but "won" because he stayed calm and was more diplomatic compare to Thorin.
yeah you stayed calm and professional, but you lost the actual war. who gives a shit how you lost the war? you lost the war gracefully...
i rather you win the war where you had to get on the floor, yell, argue, get hands dirty.
i think thorin made some good points , be it misunderstanding or a careful approach to the answer i felt like thorin was justified for explosively decompressing as he did . i felt like the point he made was being swiped away or misinterpreted repeatedly which caused him to get triggered harder and harder .
The problem is, Thorin's question is "how does the PA feel about NA only slots". Aram openly rejects the premise of 'the PA has formally discussed this before' that's why Thorin's question is hypothetical. Aram's answer is that NA residents would not advocate for this because they would not want to undermine their import teammates/friends which is the hypothetical answer.
Thorin question just wasn't good. Aram needed to clarify his answer because he is representing the PA not just his own opinions. Instead of just moving on, Thorin completely ruined the flow of the episode. I stop watching shortly after this so I might miss some more context provided later.
@@WB650 maybe it was phrased poorly but thorin did get a few cracks at it and at different angles . but also i think the main point was that he's heard this many times before and almost always the actions go the opposite of those words . what i think i got was thorin was hoping for a more direct answer but wasnt getting it , either by choice or by force by phillip .
@@Pollux1741 what answer do you think Phil was avoiding? I don't think he did at all
@@WB650 maybe i did misinterpreted Phillip's answer but the gist of it is that Thorin wants to know if any and all of this is even worth it , because he wants to only see the best of the best play , i share the same sentiment .
i definitely need at least another go at this show just to understand the points made more thoroughly but at this point i feel like people are overreacting at thorin just as he did towards phillip
@Pollux 1741 im not sure what you mean by "worth it", Phil answered that the PA is not interested in making LCS na-only and do not discuss it indepth. Thats literally a clear answer. I don't think there is much overreaction going on at the channel. Thorin looks very bad in this video and is obviously tilted. I think its fair he is called out for it.
I liked Thorin on this episode.
was honestly a good response by mr Phillip respect
I appreciate they say franchising is bad now. But somehow the storytelling seems off for me. I dont know which context it was anymore, bute before franchising existed, at least thats what I remember and can get called out on it, at least Monte was highly advertising for franchising. Im not sure what Thorrin thought about it at that time though, but he couldve been in favour as well
Does anyone have any context for Travis Gafford and the reddit mod's beef? I was preoccupied with MSI and missed the drama
Travis continues to prove he'll snitch on anything to prevent free speech as long as he benefits from it basically. Getting someone else's journalistic post taken down on reddit.
Thorium lashed out because Philip was not charitably engaging with the points, but points scoring and trying to “win” the arguments. It was not an honest vulnerable discussion from his side, but as Philip stated, a use of this show as part of the “bully pulpit”. A tool to get people on their side.
that's Thoorin's wholse shtick though, he barrels through points that are taken to extremes to prove a point then tries to tie it back into root cause analysis to add more weight to what he's saying. In this circumstance for example he was using some ridiculous notion of free market economics to spur his argument, his guest pushed back and said "well if you like free market economy, the LCS is not that currently with franchising". Thooorin's response was to jump to reducto ad absurdum and claim that if the Aram loves free market then why is he against removing all imports etc. The guest quite rightly says that is not part of the current discussion, because the guest is focused entirely on the original topic of the health of the league. Thooorin doesn't like this as making this point quite rightly makes his point look very silly (which it was) which is why he then goes off .Anytime someone might look smarter than him or someone who can handle their shit more than him he just goes off like a fucking child in this video. Its probably part of his condition but as such he should also take more caution to stop himself being like this.
I guarantee you that he is like this 100% of the time irl too, which is why he is a terminally online psycho.
4/10 episode, props to Thorin for doing his best to spice up the PR snoozefest
Aram is a perfect surname for someone organizing a LoL walkout/strike 💣
Wtf with wrong with Thorin?
Thorin is particularly annoying on this one
Am i missing how there were such major "L"s from thorin in this episode?
Thorin asks why have protection for non imports. Philip says "well they have that in eu football". Ok? So whst are the merits for that lol. philip does elaborate a bit more on how he believes locality is imperative to the scene, but his retort re eu football didnt actually engage in any of the rationale of why its done rather than "ya but they do it in real sports" which is (ironically) the typical playbook from riot when defending their decisions.
Thorin then asks about the competing priorities for the players within the association and philip basically says we dont really think about that. ... What lol. Seems like a major consideration for the players association that represents clear categories of tiers of players in addition to none local players that would have their own interests and is specifically relevant to this conversation as we are trying to get collective bargaining out of a disparate group of players with varying value in the context of the league.
I will say I am impressed Phil kept his cool and thought he was a great guest even though i kind of completely disagree on this entire initiative and the proposal that players should form a walk out so shit players can keep getting a pay cheque. Under the guise of "this is fundamental to the league". Personally find there is literally no evidence to support that all with almost no academy success stories and virtually no interest for academy players other than to fill a spot at the minimum possible cost.
Thought thorins angry outburst was over the top but consistent with how he gets annoyed with people sidestepping his points.
What am i missing about the "major Ls" thorin is taking? Am i misrepresenting this? Please provide timestamps and i'll try to understand better where you're coming from.
Great episode but personally think this is the most retarded strike the players could take in light of all the bullshit that riot has pulled over 10 years of lcs and even prior to the lcs.
Thorin talking about whatboutism wan't fun and less when he went full "free market", which is just absurd. Phil showed some backbone, wasn't afraid of speak about Travis and Riot and stood by the players. Even Monte and Richard had to hold Thorin down becase he was just talking retarded shit. And don't let me start with his "clarifications"... LMAO
Gonna say it: I'm with Thorin on this one. There's only one way this guy swings. Not gonna lie, I hope Aram is never on the podcast ever again. Bunch of PR speak and only sees one angle. Also arguing stuff like "you should be against that" is just intellectually dishonest. Nothing to do with the situation at hand, trying to give other outs but they won't be considered because "the teams and riot should fix this". I don't disagree but you have to start living in the real world, right? Look for other ways to do it.
Also the fact that you can just say "Travis Gafford has his flaws but he's a good guy" is pretty much the deathknell for this guy. I can't believe you just heard what he's done and you go "yeah, nah, he's okay". I guess that's what working with Riot does to you...
Missed the stream so glad the vod is up this morning !