I think you have to remember that STS only ever did enough in a finish and was extremely clever, he knew. I'm a huge fan of both Frankel & STS and these debates are pointless, lets just enjoy the talent and performances these animals produced. I still believe though that Frankels Guineas win will always be remembered and STS will be remembered for being such a versatile beast from 1m - 1m 4f which is not easy at top flight level. Plus, his Arc win visually was magic, pulled hard, penned in, flew
Yes i agree with what ur saying…. The debates r kinda pointless in a way but will always be talked about… sts and frankel were definitely the best flat horses av ever seen…. I think secretariat is the best of all…. U say frankells guineas will b remembered most … and it was amazing what he did….. zafonics was great to… but sts is the only horse to win the guineas .. derby and arc … he is so special…… thats better than frankels achievements fact… maybe this year city of troy can live up to the obrien hype….. he looks fantastic…. To be continued
Hahaha he would destroy Frankel if Frankel was upped in trip rather than stay at a mile for life STS won at a mile, a mile and 2 and a mile and 4 all were Group 1s and all in one season...id like to see Frankel ever trying that or are his connections going to keep him in bubble wrap all of his races
Es fabuloso y maravilloso.KINANE sabe lo que lleva abajo "SEA THE STARS". Pido a Tsui y Oxx que siga corriendo en 2010 en Europa y NO en "dirt". Pasaran muchos años hasta que halla otro caballo como el.¡¡¡Simply the best".
So you're suggesting STS as the superior of Frankel based on comparative race times? STS's 2000 Guineas winning time would have seen him placed about 9th in the following days 1000 Guineas. Care to explain how that fits in with your premise?
I wonder if he should even be considered with horses like Zarkava, Dalakahni, Sinndar, Hurricane run, Montjeu, Galileo, etc. maybe I'm biased but I think multiple distance and facing all comers is really important to be considered an all time great.
The BRITS run 4 the hills...I laf at the teeny field..... The morale of tail is dont showboat with STARS...He took UMBRIDGE..........but let the jockey OFF.and trainer(show him off)...and came storming froo....A trak record wivout wind...We wont see his like again.....NATURALY....
Youmzain was consistent but short of top class IMO, Stacelita moved on to the states after flopping the year after the 2009 Arc, Fame and Glory went on to become a Gold Cup horse, Cavalryman's last win as a racehorse as far as I remember was the marathon race at the Dubai Carnival, Dar Re Mi and Vison De Tat where substandard Gr1 animals. On paper it wasn't a vintage Arc to produce a statement that these horses were of better quality than anything Frankel ever faced in a Gr1 is laughable to be..
i agree and sea the stars always did as littke as possible in his races and just takes a smack or 2 to wake up!!!! any race STS has ran,where was his pace maker...none!! did all his own work and won. still FRANKEL is special
Been risked on the going of last years Arc or the ground on Champions day, A fine horse who proved his versatility. But no Frankel and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, This video proves it. All out to beat Mastercraftsman, Frankel would have mauled Mastercraftsman
No doubt Frankel is one of the greatest milers ever up there with Brigadier Gerard but really never proved enough to be mentioned with the all around greats that had campaigns at 1-1.5 miles. Frankel also did not face competition like sts did.
MouldyBolog Bolog .....it happens when a horse is producing massive ratings. All the group horses are scared off because their going to get smashed. In addition, you can’t throw in a high class handicapper for the place money, because if it gets within ten lengths its rating will go up so much that it won’t get a sniff of another win for three years. Would be nice to see more horses but a sensible trainer will find an outing that won’t result in total fuckstorm.
Horses he ran against were class horses ..he himself broke Track record ..hes the best I've seen over the years ...Mick kinane says he was never really tested never got to the bottom of him and the only horse could of tested him was Frankel and he with that he reckons he would of beaten frankel!!
Frankel would have buried STS over any distance up to 1m2f - No-one can argue that. As for not facing the same opposition as STS, When did STS ever face a 130 plus horse over 1m2f like Frankel did with Cirrus Des Aigles? He alone is better than any horse STS faced, His Arc on paper isnt vintage. Frankel faced a mud freak on his favoured distance and ground and still beat him in his last race. STS wasnt allowed to meet Fame and Glory in the Irish Derby because of soft going - He'd have never...
The answer is that it doesn't fit your premise because you've cherry picked your evidence to suit your argument. Using race times to 'prove' the superiority of a horse over another is flawed and does not stand up to scrutiny.Suggesting STS's Juddmonte was superior to Frankel's because the overall race was quicker is incredibly naive. Form is determined by how horses run in relation to each other. STS was all out to beat just one opponent, a non-staying MC, whereas Frankel demolished the field.
sea the stars not in the highest echelon ? so what else should he have done , won the arc with his legs tied together ? mate he rarely came off the bridle , 6 group 1s in 6 months , over a mile to a mile and a half . who els e did that ?
No, but it put things into perspective. Performances might be visual impressive - as they're in Frankel's case - but in truth they're far less amazing. He's probably the best miler ever and it's breathtaking to watch him racing. His win in the Juddmonte proofed he stays well 10f & that he's a great hose indeed. But the best ever? Winning a G1 each month six month in a row, taking on everyone & not ducking a challenge, overcoming a horrendous start in the Arc etc... that's true greatness.
It's not as simple as that first Frankel finished on the other side of the track so effectivly ran probably 25 yards further. Also STS was pushed quite hard hereand Frankel was't asked to do anything until a furlong out. Both great horses thoughI hope they run Frankel in the Arc even though I don't think they will because otherwise he could end his career without being really tested and we'll maybe never know how great he really could have been.
Yeah over a mile he would but he would find it very hard over a mile and a quarter...Theres no point in either of us arguing because we will never know who was better we just have to go on our opinions
Frankel is exciting, particularly from a visual point of view. But bear in mind that he ran more than a second slower yesterday in the International compared to Sea The Stars in 2009 and despite a visual unbelievable performance in the 2.000 Guineas Frankel ran almost two seconds slower than Sea The Stars did in 2009. All these races were ran on good to firm ground, so equal conditions. It's plain and simple which horse is the superior one.
Johnny Murtagh uses his whip too aggressively for my liking, and not just here. Surely a good jockey knows when his horse has nothing more to give, or that what he can give will no longer make a difference to the overall result?
I think Sea the Stars. Montjeu was unlucky, he had a stellar 3-year-old season but his 4-year campaign was less successful and this tarnished his legacy. I also think of NIjinsky blowing the Arc when he was jaded after the St Leger and then was produced fractionally too early by Piggott. That cost him his place in the Sea Bird echelon. Sea the Stars, however, got these things right; and yet there wasn't quite the mark of the gods on his wins. But yes, I think he beats Montjeu by a nose. You?
Maybe I'm being a bit unfair to him but not by much. He just pulled through to win at York in very fast conditions, and did similarly in the Arc. They were great performances sure, but I think for instance that Sea Bird II's, Peintre Celebre's and Dancing Brave's Arc wins - each of them different - belong to a slightly higher category. The BHA ratings and even (I think) the second-rate Timeform ratings would agree with this. But still a fabulous horse.
I totally agree with you, ASupremeOwl. STS made really hard work of overhauling Mastercraftsman, and I think we both know that if Frankel had been in this race he would have blitzed STS.
Then perhaps you both know Frankel didn't race against anything like the class of the horses Sea The Stars raced against. Mastercraftsman was a far superior horse than the likes of Excelebration that Frankel was beating regularly. The best horse Frankl raced against was Cirrus Des Aigles in his last race, when Frankel had to really work to beat him, and Cirrus Des Aigles was a 7 year old by that time and past his best.
Yes, Murtagh does whip him a lot , but he gets effort with every hit.....some horses require it........Murtagh is a great rider, he can ride my horse any day.........
this was probably sea the stars weakest performance he realy had to work hard for this one, i dont think he was at his best this day and he still beat a very classy horse in mastercraftsman, when you see how far sea the stars beat mastercraftsman in the irish champion stakes after this race you realise this race flattered mastercrftsman
Sea The Stars didn't have his own pacemaker but lets be real here,he ran in a Guineas,Derby & Arc where a good pace is a sure thing.His other races all had Ballydoyle horses like Mastercraftsman,Fame And Glory,Rip Van Winkle who all had pacemakers... the reality is whether Sea The Stars needed a pacemaker or not he always ran in races with them.
Just a walk in the park for Sea the Stars, he had plenty left in the locker, why win by 5 lengths? it's the way he raced which kept him sound and enabled him to win 6 group 1's in a row and go down as the greatest flat horse ever
¡Que tierno y brillante!.Le gusta correr atras,luego lo saca a la derecha y se despista,mira el caballo a la tribuna.A falta de 300 metros comienza a galopar en serio."Stamina",como pocas veces he visto y hay se termina la carrera.KINANE-SEA THE STARS,pegaso de los cielos.
I remember watching this Group One race and yet again, Sea The Stars comes out on top. I also watched the Celebration Mile at Goodwood on Saturday 29th August won by Delegator with Frankie Dettori on board.
lol first of all STS is retired and second you can't compare a 100m runner with an 400m runner and the third is we should hope that you Overdose can reach his class again after his injury .
ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you for real? '' Sea the Stars had a better turn of foot than Frankel '' Surely if your going to try and argue a point about the two great horses you don't try and pick on Frankel's strongest asset. Are you on about the same turn of foot Sea the Stars produced in taking a lifetime to get past Mastercraftsman in this race? Or the same turn of foot that still couldn't hold off Rip Van Winkle in the Eclipse and he was all out to win?
Whether you like it or not, Sea The Stars was a top class horse who won The best European Group 1 Classic races over 1 mile, a mile and a quarter and a mile and a half. Frankel didn't race anywhere other than England, didn't stay a mile and a half and never raced in the Arc. Frankel was a quite brilliant racehorse, of that there can be no doubt, and his win in the 2000 Guineas, in my opinion, is by far the most impressive performance I've ever seen in that race. Maybe the best means of comparing the two is the 2012 Champion Stakes. He beat Cirrus Des Aigles, 3 years older than him, by a length or so. Perhaps his worst race was the St James Palace which he won by three-quarters of a length, and the horse closest to him, Zoffany, never raced in Europe again. In my opinion Fame and Glory, Mastercraftsman, Conduit and Rip Van Winkle were ALL better horses than Excelebration and the majority of horses that Frankel raced against, and Sea The Stars beat all of them. So it's really hard to make a fair comparison.
I think you'll find that both Sea the Stars and Frankel both ran there 2000 Guineas on Good to Firm ground with Frankel having to run into a headwind on the day, Sea the Stars recorded a quicker time as you'd expect but to only beat Delegator a length is not brilliant form over a mile and just proves how different the conditions of Newmarket were on there respective days because Frankel would have absolutely annihilated Delegator over a mile...
And Canford Cliffs won 6 in total, Two fine milers who were took apart by Frankel over a mile please don't spout drivel when you can't back up your facts. Sea the Stars excelled over 1m2f and 1m4f he was at his weakest over a mile which shows when you can only put a length between yourself and Delegator. Frankel would have demolished Sea the Stars over a mile, In Frankel where talking about the best miler since Brigadier Gerard, Is record stands only with the Brigadier...
As I've stated before Frankel would have buried STS over a mile and a mile and quarter. A mile and half would have been intresting because Frankel's stamina wasn't proven at the distance whereas IMO it was STS best distance. Had Frankel's stamina held up like I'd have expected it do it would have been intresting... I'd have priced a match race between Frankel and Sea the Stars over 1m3f as an halfway race for the two Frankel 4/9 Sea the Stars 100/30
Totally disagree. Frankel didn't ever run over a mile and a quarter as a 3 year old and Cecil didn't believe at that time he would stay. In the St James Palace Stakes over a mile at Ascot, if he'd stayed he would have won the race a lot more easily. He was treading water at the end and just held on. So a 3 yr Frankel against Sea The Stars, only one winner, STS in my opinion. As a 4yr old Frankel was strengthened up but basically raced against all the same horses he'd beaten when he was a 3yr old with the exception of Cirrus Des Aigles who he beat by just over a length. So as a 3 year old I would have had Frankel at 5/2 and STS 1/3. Frankel as a 4yr old the prices would have been much closer.
Genetic mods and illdechirpe radio still wont beat the stars....This is about horse exelence...Stop patriotic nonsence and pa·ro·chi·al tosh...and enjoy HORSES without BORDERS.
Frankel looked a stone superior to STS. The 4lb differential in the official ratings is nonsense, if STS is a 136 horse then Frankel should be around 150.
Not only that Cockney Rebel in 2007 won the 2000 Guineas on the same going as both Sea the Stars and Frankel and he recorded an even faster time than both beating the track record which still stands - Are we to hold him above those two just because he posted a quicker time? Of course not. Alot of mediocre animals hold track records in Britain. Comparing times across generations is pointless...
Explain? Well, as regards STS you have a closed fanboi mindset, when objectivity is required, and for that you need to put down your yellow pompoms and take a step back. STS was a robust and consistent horse but his wins were only ever workmanlike against moderate grinders. The horses he beat never really franked the form. He was a 130 handicapper at best. The racing media tried to push STS in to the mainstream but that attempt to transcend racing was an epic fail - STS lacked the wow factor.
And as for saying Sea the Stars would have beaten Frankel over a mile, Seriously what are you on? Just take a look at Sea the Stars form over a mile he beat Delegator a length over 8 furlongs, Delegator who went on to do nothing really as a racehorse. Frankel beat two on the best milers in the last 10 years in his generation (Canford Cliffs and Excelebration) And he beat them both with ease, You forget that Excelebration would have won 7 Gr1's in total had it not been for Frankel and...
Frankel was a phenomenal racehorse, but whether you like it or not he didn't stay a mile and a half. Cirrus Des Aigles was by far the best horse he raced against, and Frankel beat him a couple of lengths, when Cirrus Des Aigles was 3 years older than Frankel. Frankel's own generation were, on the face of it, dross. Unlike you I didn't rate Excelebration as anything like as good as you seem to think he was, he was only rated the seventh best horse of 2011. He went off a short price favourite for the Breeders Cup and was a well beaten 4th.
If you're arguing Guineas race times as proof of STS's superiority over Frankel then maybe you should check out the 2009 1000G race time. STS's 2000G time would have seen him placed about 9th in the girl's race!!!! As regards the Arc, it was a weak field which is why Oxx was happy to run STS in it. STS only actually covered the last 2.5F in the same time as Youmzain, hardly impressive. STS's home straight finish would have seen him completely swallowed up in 1986's Arc renewal.
I wish he had shipped to the Breeder's Cup to take on Zenyatta. I'm not going to say who I think would win because that's just one person's opinion, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't be a close. He would be her greatest challenge and vice versa.
Sea the Stars was a great horse but not quite in the very highest echelon occupied by the likes of Sea Bird II, Dancing Brave and Ribot. He was about as good as Montjeu. Those who follow him with their hearts rather than their heads might disagree, but that is merely a demonstration of emotion's power to subvert reason. I think Frankel is a better horse, and better over the 10 furlong trip, but even Frankel's place among the true all-time greats is not yet wholly assured..
![FendiDa Rappa - Clock Dat ft. Shamar Marco [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3NBU8KHdxYY/mqdefault.jpg)
Left work early to get to York for this race, classy horse sea the stars, Mastercraftsman gave his all, really sad he's passed away
I think you have to remember that STS only ever did enough in a finish and was extremely clever, he knew. I'm a huge fan of both Frankel & STS and these debates are pointless, lets just enjoy the talent and performances these animals produced. I still believe though that Frankels Guineas win will always be remembered and STS will be remembered for being such a versatile beast from 1m - 1m 4f which is not easy at top flight level. Plus, his Arc win visually was magic, pulled hard, penned in, flew
how do you know he only ever did enough?
Love them both but STS achieved more imo, all at 3. Its the Equine Messi v Ronaldo 😆
@@colintipton1740 They were never taking ground off him at the end.
Yes i agree with what ur saying…. The debates r kinda pointless in a way but will always be talked about… sts and frankel were definitely the best flat horses av ever seen…. I think secretariat is the best of all…. U say frankells guineas will b remembered most … and it was amazing what he did….. zafonics was great to… but sts is the only horse to win the guineas .. derby and arc … he is so special…… thats better than frankels achievements fact… maybe this year city of troy can live up to the obrien hype….. he looks fantastic…. To be continued
Love both STS and Frankel but felt STS achieved more
hahahahaha
what a horse! a furlong out he seemed beat, but has that "never say die" attitude- just found more! look how far ahead they were from the rest!!
And they still can't do it. Congrats on the Arc. You're the greatest ever.
Hahaha he would destroy Frankel if Frankel was upped in trip rather than stay at a mile for life STS won at a mile, a mile and 2 and a mile and 4 all were Group 1s and all in one season...id like to see Frankel ever trying that or are his connections going to keep him in bubble wrap all of his races
YOU TALK A WHOLE LOAD OF RUBBISH,GROW UP 😡
Es fabuloso y maravilloso.KINANE sabe lo que lleva abajo "SEA THE STARS".
Pido a Tsui y Oxx que siga corriendo en 2010 en Europa y NO en "dirt".
Pasaran muchos años hasta que halla otro caballo como el.¡¡¡Simply the best".
So you're suggesting STS as the superior of Frankel based on comparative race times? STS's 2000 Guineas winning time would have seen him placed about 9th in the following days 1000 Guineas. Care to explain how that fits in with your premise?
I wonder if he should even be considered with horses like Zarkava, Dalakahni, Sinndar, Hurricane run, Montjeu, Galileo, etc. maybe I'm biased but I think multiple distance and facing all comers is really important to be considered an all time great.
The BRITS run 4 the hills...I laf at the teeny field..... The morale of tail is dont showboat with STARS...He took UMBRIDGE..........but let the jockey OFF.and trainer(show him off)...and came storming froo....A trak record wivout wind...We wont see his like again.....NATURALY....
It looked as if that over-confident ride could have undone Sea the Stars. He sure looked beat to me, amazing run.
Youmzain was consistent but short of top class IMO, Stacelita moved on to the states after flopping the year after the 2009 Arc, Fame and Glory went on to become a Gold Cup horse, Cavalryman's last win as a racehorse as far as I remember was the marathon race at the Dubai Carnival, Dar Re Mi and Vison De Tat where substandard Gr1 animals. On paper it wasn't a vintage Arc to produce a statement that these horses were of better quality than anything Frankel ever faced in a Gr1 is laughable to be..
i agree and sea the stars always did as littke as possible in his races and just takes a smack or 2 to wake up!!!!
any race STS has ran,where was his pace maker...none!! did all his own work and won.
still FRANKEL is special
Been risked on the going of last years Arc or the ground on Champions day, A fine horse who proved his versatility. But no Frankel and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, This video proves it. All out to beat Mastercraftsman, Frankel would have mauled Mastercraftsman
Well said.
No doubt Frankel is one of the greatest milers ever up there with Brigadier Gerard but really never proved enough to be mentioned with the all around greats that had campaigns at 1-1.5 miles. Frankel also did not face competition like sts did.
BULLSHIT!. Frankel made group 1 winners look like donkeys.
STS could not live with Frankel or Dancing Brave.
rubbish
Frankel was the most overrated horse spoon fed his whole career
never seen such a poor field in the Juddmonte 4 runners?
MouldyBolog Bolog .....it happens when a horse is producing massive ratings. All the group horses are scared off because their going to get smashed. In addition, you can’t throw in a high class handicapper for the place money, because if it gets within ten lengths its rating will go up so much that it won’t get a sniff of another win for three years. Would be nice to see more horses but a sensible trainer will find an outing that won’t result in total fuckstorm.
Il hold my hands up and say I was wrong but id still say that he would not beat STS
hard to say how good sts was he obviously idled in front every time and seemed to just do enough.
He never idled, he also won with a bit up his sleeve.
Horses he ran against were class horses ..he himself broke Track record ..hes the best I've seen over the years ...Mick kinane says he was never really tested never got to the bottom of him and the only horse could of tested him was Frankel and he with that he reckons he would of beaten frankel!!
will you please post today's celebration mile from goodwood. thanks in advance :)
Ciarán De Barra did they ever do it for you 😂
Frankel would have buried STS over any distance up to 1m2f - No-one can argue that. As for not facing the same opposition as STS, When did STS ever face a 130 plus horse over 1m2f like Frankel did with Cirrus Des Aigles? He alone is better than any horse STS faced, His Arc on paper isnt vintage. Frankel faced a mud freak on his favoured distance and ground and still beat him in his last race. STS wasnt allowed to meet Fame and Glory in the Irish Derby because of soft going - He'd have never...
The answer is that it doesn't fit your premise because you've cherry picked your evidence to suit your argument. Using race times to 'prove' the superiority of a horse over another is flawed and does not stand up to scrutiny.Suggesting STS's Juddmonte was superior to Frankel's because the overall race was quicker is incredibly naive. Form is determined by how horses run in relation to each other. STS was all out to beat just one opponent, a non-staying MC, whereas Frankel demolished the field.
sea the stars not in the highest echelon ? so what else should he have done , won the arc with his legs tied together ? mate he rarely came off the bridle , 6 group 1s in 6 months , over a mile to a mile and a half . who els e did that ?
No, but it put things into perspective. Performances might be visual impressive - as they're in Frankel's case - but in truth they're far less amazing. He's probably the best miler ever and it's breathtaking to watch him racing. His win in the Juddmonte proofed he stays well 10f & that he's a great hose indeed. But the best ever? Winning a G1 each month six month in a row, taking on everyone & not ducking a challenge, overcoming a horrendous start in the Arc etc... that's true greatness.
It's not as simple as that first Frankel finished on the other side of the track so effectivly ran probably 25 yards further. Also STS was pushed quite hard hereand Frankel was't asked to do anything until a furlong out. Both great horses thoughI hope they run Frankel in the Arc even though I don't think they will because otherwise he could end his career without being really tested and we'll maybe never know how great he really could have been.
Yeah over a mile he would but he would find it very hard over a mile and a quarter...Theres no point in either of us arguing because we will never know who was better we just have to go on our opinions
Frankel is exciting, particularly from a visual point of view. But bear in mind that he ran more than a second slower yesterday in the International compared to Sea The Stars in 2009 and despite a visual unbelievable performance in the 2.000 Guineas Frankel ran almost two seconds slower than Sea The Stars did in 2009. All these races were ran on good to firm ground, so equal conditions. It's plain and simple which horse is the superior one.
Johnny Murtagh uses his whip too aggressively for my liking, and not just here. Surely a good jockey knows when his horse has nothing more to give, or that what he can give will no longer make a difference to the overall result?
I think Sea the Stars. Montjeu was unlucky, he had a stellar 3-year-old season but his 4-year campaign was less successful and this tarnished his legacy. I also think of NIjinsky blowing the Arc when he was jaded after the St Leger and then was produced fractionally too early by Piggott. That cost him his place in the Sea Bird echelon. Sea the Stars, however, got these things right; and yet there wasn't quite the mark of the gods on his wins. But yes, I think he beats Montjeu by a nose. You?
Maybe I'm being a bit unfair to him but not by much. He just pulled through to win at York in very fast conditions, and did similarly in the Arc. They were great performances sure, but I think for instance that Sea Bird II's, Peintre Celebre's and Dancing Brave's Arc wins - each of them different - belong to a slightly higher category. The BHA ratings and even (I think) the second-rate Timeform ratings would agree with this. But still a fabulous horse.
I totally agree with you, ASupremeOwl. STS made really hard work of overhauling Mastercraftsman, and I think we both know that if Frankel had been in this race he would have blitzed STS.
Then perhaps you both know Frankel didn't race against anything like the class of the horses Sea The Stars raced against. Mastercraftsman was a far superior horse than the likes of Excelebration that Frankel was beating regularly. The best horse Frankl raced against was Cirrus Des Aigles in his last race, when Frankel had to really work to beat him, and Cirrus Des Aigles was a 7 year old by that time and past his best.
MY uncle bet £1 on sea the stars each time he ran -.- £1?! I swear i would have bet hundreds on that horse lol
Yes, Murtagh does whip him a lot , but he gets effort with every
hit.....some horses require it........Murtagh is a great rider, he can ride my horse any day.........
this was probably sea the stars weakest performance he realy had to work hard for this one, i dont think he was at his best this day and he still beat a very classy horse in mastercraftsman, when you see how far sea the stars beat mastercraftsman in the irish champion stakes after this race you realise this race flattered mastercrftsman
Frankel would have buried STS over a mile and a mile and quarter. Frankel is once in a lifetime...
Most speed of a flat racehorse I've ever seen - the Usain Bolt of horseracing - Go "See The Stars" win the Beeders Cup
Sea The Stars didn't have his own pacemaker but lets be real here,he ran in a Guineas,Derby & Arc where a good pace is a sure thing.His other races all had Ballydoyle horses like Mastercraftsman,Fame And Glory,Rip Van Winkle who all had pacemakers... the reality is whether Sea The Stars needed a pacemaker or not he always ran in races with them.
Any other horse would've been beaten with that over confident ride, but STS was STS :)
Just a walk in the park for Sea the Stars, he had plenty left in the locker, why win by 5 lengths? it's the way he raced which kept him sound and enabled him to win 6 group 1's in a row and go down as the greatest flat horse ever
@vixitrixalina he didnt really look beat? and they were pacemakers you clown!!!!
honest. None of those horses were rated superior to Cirrus Des Aigles in his prime nor Excelebration...
¡Que tierno y brillante!.Le gusta correr atras,luego lo saca a la derecha y se despista,mira el caballo a la tribuna.A falta de 300 metros comienza a galopar en serio."Stamina",como pocas veces he visto y hay se termina la carrera.KINANE-SEA THE STARS,pegaso de los cielos.
I remember watching this Group One race and yet again, Sea The Stars comes out on top. I also watched the Celebration Mile at Goodwood on Saturday 29th August won by Delegator with Frankie Dettori on board.
lol
first of all STS is retired and second you can't compare a 100m runner with an 400m runner and the third is we should hope that you Overdose can reach his class again after his injury .
Close! Watch how, throughout, each of the 4 jockeys retained their own distinct shape.
the Wayne Harrison of horses, winning machine.
ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you for real? '' Sea the Stars had a better turn of foot than Frankel '' Surely if your going to try and argue a point about the two great horses you don't try and pick on Frankel's strongest asset. Are you on about the same turn of foot Sea the Stars produced in taking a lifetime to get past Mastercraftsman in this race? Or the same turn of foot that still couldn't hold off Rip Van Winkle in the Eclipse and he was all out to win?
Whether you like it or not, Sea The Stars was a top class horse who won The best European Group 1 Classic races over 1 mile, a mile and a quarter and a mile and a half. Frankel didn't race anywhere other than England, didn't stay a mile and a half and never raced in the Arc. Frankel was a quite brilliant racehorse, of that there can be no doubt, and his win in the 2000 Guineas, in my opinion, is by far the most impressive performance I've ever seen in that race. Maybe the best means of comparing the two is the 2012 Champion Stakes. He beat Cirrus Des Aigles, 3 years older than him, by a length or so. Perhaps his worst race was the St James Palace which he won by three-quarters of a length, and the horse closest to him, Zoffany, never raced in Europe again. In my opinion Fame and Glory, Mastercraftsman, Conduit and Rip Van Winkle were ALL better horses than Excelebration and the majority of horses that Frankel raced against, and Sea The Stars beat all of them. So it's really hard to make a fair comparison.
@sainglain If only! 8 race starts and off to the barn. Disappointing.
I think you'll find that both Sea the Stars and Frankel both ran there 2000 Guineas on Good to Firm ground with Frankel having to run into a headwind on the day, Sea the Stars recorded a quicker time as you'd expect but to only beat Delegator a length is not brilliant form over a mile and just proves how different the conditions of Newmarket were on there respective days because Frankel would have absolutely annihilated Delegator over a mile...
The horses Frankel bt by 5 lengths in the guineas dubai dream and native Khan never even won a group 1 delegator did so Sts guinees held its form
You still saying that after Frankel's demolition in the International today? STS wouldn't bother Frankel over any trip...
Yes
Its like the Irish Champion never happened
@GBeret83 I'd be a fool to disagree.
Track record was broken in this race.
If you had to pick between them who would you say is superior - Montjeu or Sea the Stars?
kinane rode both he said STS the best he ever sat on
Hey where are the Irish
And Canford Cliffs won 6 in total, Two fine milers who were took apart by Frankel over a mile please don't spout drivel when you can't back up your facts. Sea the Stars excelled over 1m2f and 1m4f he was at his weakest over a mile which shows when you can only put a length between yourself and Delegator. Frankel would have demolished Sea the Stars over a mile, In Frankel where talking about the best miler since Brigadier Gerard, Is record stands only with the Brigadier...
ASupremeOwl frankel would of beat sea the stars over any trip
@@liamhudspith2728 Rubbish.
@ch9980: you're talking rubbish
As I've stated before Frankel would have buried STS over a mile and a mile and quarter. A mile and half would have been intresting because Frankel's stamina wasn't proven at the distance whereas IMO it was STS best distance. Had Frankel's stamina held up like I'd have expected it do it would have been intresting... I'd have priced a match race between Frankel and Sea the Stars over 1m3f as an halfway race for the two
Frankel 4/9
Sea the Stars 100/30
Totally disagree. Frankel didn't ever run over a mile and a quarter as a 3 year old and Cecil didn't believe at that time he would stay. In the St James Palace Stakes over a mile at Ascot, if he'd stayed he would have won the race a lot more easily. He was treading water at the end and just held on. So a 3 yr Frankel against Sea The Stars, only one winner, STS in my opinion. As a 4yr old Frankel was strengthened up but basically raced against all the same horses he'd beaten when he was a 3yr old with the exception of Cirrus Des Aigles who he beat by just over a length. So as a 3 year old I would have had Frankel at 5/2 and STS 1/3. Frankel as a 4yr old the prices would have been much closer.
john black wrong frankel also demolished 2 top class horses at York in farhh and st Nicholas Abby
a bizarre comment lol!
The devastating turn of foot of STS VS Cruising speed of Frankel
Frankel everytime!
Genetic mods and illdechirpe radio still wont beat the stars....This is about horse exelence...Stop patriotic nonsence and pa·ro·chi·al tosh...and enjoy HORSES without BORDERS.
Sea the stars fantastic horse but Frankel would have had just so many gears for him.
Over a mile 4?
Get real Frankel would of been no match over mile 4f against Sea The Stars
Frankel looked a stone superior to STS. The 4lb differential in the official ratings is nonsense, if STS is a 136 horse then Frankel should be around 150.
Not only that Cockney Rebel in 2007 won the 2000 Guineas on the same going as both Sea the Stars and Frankel and he recorded an even faster time than both beating the track record which still stands - Are we to hold him above those two just because he posted a quicker time? Of course not. Alot of mediocre animals hold track records in Britain. Comparing times across generations is pointless...
I think Frankel would have too much pace for sts over 10f
Mat Nettleton stop talking 💩💩
Explain? Well, as regards STS you have a closed fanboi mindset, when objectivity is required, and for that you need to put down your yellow pompoms and take a step back. STS was a robust and consistent horse but his wins were only ever workmanlike against moderate grinders. The horses he beat never really franked the form. He was a 130 handicapper at best. The racing media tried to push STS in to the mainstream but that attempt to transcend racing was an epic fail - STS lacked the wow factor.
Your a fool
@@shaneconnors7478 Fools tend not to know the difference between your and you're.
And as for saying Sea the Stars would have beaten Frankel over a mile, Seriously what are you on? Just take a look at Sea the Stars form over a mile he beat Delegator a length over 8 furlongs, Delegator who went on to do nothing really as a racehorse. Frankel beat two on the best milers in the last 10 years in his generation (Canford Cliffs and Excelebration) And he beat them both with ease, You forget that Excelebration would have won 7 Gr1's in total had it not been for Frankel and...
Frankel was a phenomenal racehorse, but whether you like it or not he didn't stay a mile and a half. Cirrus Des Aigles was by far the best horse he raced against, and Frankel beat him a couple of lengths, when Cirrus Des Aigles was 3 years older than Frankel. Frankel's own generation were, on the face of it, dross. Unlike you I didn't rate Excelebration as anything like as good as you seem to think he was, he was only rated the seventh best horse of 2011. He went off a short price favourite for the Breeders Cup and was a well beaten 4th.
john black frankel missed the kick that day on very bad going and didn't get let go till at least a furlong and a half out
If you're arguing Guineas race times as proof of STS's superiority over Frankel then maybe you should check out the 2009 1000G race time. STS's 2000G time would have seen him placed about 9th in the girl's race!!!! As regards the Arc, it was a weak field which is why Oxx was happy to run STS in it. STS only actually covered the last 2.5F in the same time as Youmzain, hardly impressive. STS's home straight finish would have seen him completely swallowed up in 1986's Arc renewal.
I wish he had shipped to the Breeder's Cup to take on Zenyatta. I'm not going to say who I think would win because that's just one person's opinion, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't be a close. He would be her greatest challenge and vice versa.
Sea the Stars was a great horse but not quite in the very highest echelon occupied by the likes of Sea Bird II, Dancing Brave and Ribot. He was about as good as Montjeu. Those who follow him with their hearts rather than their heads might disagree, but that is merely a demonstration of emotion's power to subvert reason. I think Frankel is a better horse, and better over the 10 furlong trip, but even Frankel's place among the true all-time greats is not yet wholly assured..
thebrasenose how stupid do you feel no with those comments? 😂😂
Give me Montjeu over Sea the Stars anyday.
Velasca sit down
You can have him.
ASupremeowl with a 92% book in a match race (4/9 & 10/3). Stats obviously not his strong point so should be completely ignored.
Stats? You mean odds. The fact of the matter is Frankel was in a different league to STS