Toby Finally Learns the Truth | The West Wing
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- “you know what they did? They forgot to bring the funny.”
Season 2 Episode 18: 17 People
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I think it was good that the show had Toby be the first to learn about the president's MS and let the viewers see his reaction because others might not have had the same reaction he did.
Not exactly, they have Leo learn about it in season 1 from Abby - but they have Toby be the first person who finds out on his own without being told by someone else.
@@ltwrr112 Leo's different, though, because he's Jed's best friend and, in many ways, a peer. Toby, like the rest of the staff (aside from Mrs. Landingham) is a subordinate and doesn't have a decades-long relationship with him.
Mmmm, not so sure about that. It is a TV show and the reactions are scripted. They could have had Sam blow a gasket or Josh. They can write the scripts for any reaction from anybody. Toby's character is somewhat of a Holier Than Thou know it all so it makes sense having him be the one with the most vile reaction. But that is because of Toby's character and has nothing to do with who gets told first.
@@viking956 They do later accuse Toby of being mad because he wasn't "in the know" earlier. But yes, he is the one most likely to be sanctimonious about things. Bartlett says as much when Toby confesses to leaking classified information - Bartlett basically says that Toby always thought of himself as being ethically superior to Bartlett.
Toby’s reaction was likely to be the worst, so it was fortuitous they started with him.
This is why Toby as the leak made no sense. This Toby Zeigler would have never in a million years betrayed Jed Bartlet like that.
wrong -- Toby as the leak made perfect sense -- Toby was always about morality, doing the right thing even if it meant losing power -- just like he had Jed own up to keeping milk prices low instead of passing the buck or making excuses even though it would cost him votes -- there is no way Toby would let astronauts die due to the US wanting to keep its military shuttle a secret
To this day I believe that the plan was to reveal that Toby lied to cover for someone else about the leak but the writers decided much later to not go ahead with the reveal.
@@shuttlecrossing1433 CJ?
It was to save his brothers life after all.
@@shaunstegallifyBy the time Toby leaked the existence of a military shuttle to Greg Brock, David Zeigler had already passed several years prior. But it was believed, Toby found out about it from David, but this was never confirmed. Come to think of it, we never learned how Toby knew about the military shuttle in the first place
"I have MS, Toby." - *Upbeat music plays.*
I grew to love Snuffy Walden, the composer. But I grew to loathe the way every episode ended with THAT music.
At about 1:50, when Bartlett has decided/been told to tell the truth, the camera pans around him and the famous portrait of George Washington, blurred but recognizable, comes into view. Absolutely intentional, but so very subtle.
what on earth is subtle about that
so subtle
This comes up later, but here we see Bartlet pay the price for having such a strained relationship with his VP. If they were closer they would have talked about whether or not he was planning to run for a second term - instead, Hoynes felt he had to start laying the ground work for his own potential run because he assumed Jed was going to stick to his one and done plan.
I think I remember a scene where they talked and it was agreed Bartlet would only once.
Hoynes himself called Jed out on that when Jed accused Hoynes of "outing" him. "I needed to start running because nobody told me I wasn't."
Hoynes wanted the Presidency too badly to see that Bartlet had changed his mind. Hoynes took the VP job expecting to be propelled into the top spot when Bartlet stepped down. It's the kind of thing anyone would expect to happen from the outside, but when it's your cheese being moved, you never see it coming.
It’s amazing how the “one and done” thing would play out in real life in 2024.
Whatever the staff’s reaction, only Donna expressed concern about the president himself.
That's because her empathy is foremost, she sees the implication as well as they all do, but her job is not to review the political aspect.
To be bourbon, it has to be 1) at least 51% corn mash, 2) aged in new, white oak barrels (that's where the brown color comes from), 3) at least 80 proof and 4) produced in the United States, any state, even New Hampshire. The most popular bourbon that isn't marketed as bourbon, is Jack Daniel's, which is technically bourbon, but marketed as "Tennessee sipping whiskey". Kentucky is just where the majority of bourbon comes from, due to the limestone in the water used to make it, but there's no legal requirement for bourbon to come from Kentucky.
Sweet baby Jesus this man’s an American
@@Lrose4020 FUCK YEAH!!! Comin' to save the motherfu-......sorry. Got carried away, there.
This guy drinks !
@@specialk9424 no worries, it happens
Thought Jack wasn't Bourbon due to the charcoal filtering
Why they didn't think Toby - one of the smartest political operators in DC - wouldn't figure it out and be PISSED he was kept out of the loop was just ridiculous naivete on Leo's part.
So a couple of technical errors in this scene. Bourbon can be made anywhere in the US (it's not limited to Kentucky). Kentucky is the capitol or "Manhattan" of bourbon, though. (There's other rules to bourbon: at least 80 proof, aged in new charred oak barrels, no adding of colors or flavors, and more)
With Sour Mash you're taking some of the mash from the previous batch to kickstart the distillation of the next batch.
Capital. Capitol is a building in the district that houses our parliament.
The President telling Toby he has an hour to make an important security decision tells Toby (and by proxy the audience) how important the conversation they're about to have is boing to be. The fact that Toby inquires more into this decision to gauge just how severe the situation he's about to engage with is nothing more than brilliant writing.
Shame you cut out the, "debate" part of it
Toby was always the smartest in the room.
The convo doesn't make sense to me.
"Im sorry sir?" "I have multiple sclerosis."
Toby would've known what MS stands for in a medical discussion. Seems poorly written just for the sake of the audience.
@@mark-ish I feel like it might be a way to write Toby as so shocked that he needed to hear it again
I am really enjoying all the clips from this official channel. They are much more coherent than the clips made by fans.
Sure. End it before Bartlett and Toby argue which is the best part
buy the dvd then.
4:00 I find it interesting that he managed to condense his initial concerns, diagnosis, and ongoing treatment into that small soundbite on a few minutes notice, but didn't feel the need (or want) to do that on the campaign trail.
Could've literally just said that to camera in a campaign ad and the American public (at least in the show's version of the 1990s) would've likely gone "Oh, so it's not the terminal kind....in that case, what's your plan for healthcare?".
But because of his pride, his hubris, his childhood trauma, and his desire for both a private life AND one of the most public roles in the western world, he chose to hide it from even his best friend and the woman that was basically his surrogate mother/big sister.
He was scared of rejection, of betrayal and denial and scorn and misunderstanding and straight-up hatred, and he let that cloud his judgment over something that could've easily been a footer in a newspaper column. One of the more grim ways most of us can relate to Jed Bartlet
Footer in a newspaper column is a stretch. It would've been a big deal on the campaign trail -- not insurmountable but absolutely a big deal. As it should have been.
@@jbuster9 I don't know, the Americans elected FDR when they knew he survived polio. And that whole thing about them not knowing he was wheelchair-bound is almost certainly absolute gubbins - back then polio was prevalent enough that everyone knew what the after effects tended to look like in adult cases, so there's a pretty safe bet they knew he wasn't fully ambulatory but didn't give much of a shit hahahaha
Best writing for the Toby Ziegler character, right here.
I just realized that not only did Bartlet not tell the country about his MS before the election, but didn’t tell the citizens of New Hampshire before his last election there. If they had been told, does he lose his bid for a second term as governor preventing any chance for the presidency? Remember the poll question about the fictional governor from Michigan.
The first in a run of 5 episodes that are the best dramatic TV ever made.
That's quite a over exaggeration.
Not true about bourbon having to be from Kentucky.
The shot of George Washington in the background at 1:45 is brilliant. I cannot tell a lie...
It's a good use of foreshadowing, 'brilliant', not so sure on that
Me too, Mr President
This episode was absolutely brilliant
This never had a lot of dramatic impact for me because 1) FDR was diagnosed with polio about 12 years before he ran for president the first time, and 2) when does somebody's private medical info become a necessary disclosure?
Toby says why about 2 minutes later
It's extremely easy political fodder for your political opponents to say, "Oh well, he hid that from the public, so what else is he hiding?"
Yes,that’s the tension. My take was, you’ve got this disease and you still wanted to serve and lead the country? Even with MS Bartlet was a dream president.
@@marcussabom2696But the answer actually was, not a damn thing. Healthy Hoynes on the other hand…..
Yeah, best not show how Toby reacts.
Jeb Bartlett is a brat. No different from any brat to ever be bratty lol.
I’m not sure why this is coming up on my feed next to Biden news. 🤔
Joe and his degenerative disease that he's pretending he doesn't have. PS instead of MS.
Probably some of the greatest scenes in television history.
Why?
Viewing Toby's reaction back when this episode 1st aired, I thought he was gonna be off the show. He seemed to be against Jed.
Just with diagnosed with MS can’t be president lots of little problems one is you lose your train of thought
Spoilers....
In all honesty, Bartlett showed a surprising lack of contrition when it came to telling the staff. Once he tells Toby and doubles down on the "Oh I'm fine by the way, thanks for asking", it really comes off as childish and against everything the character has been up to this point. He knows that keeping it a secret was wrong, so what's that about?
I think he was expecting Toby to rally behind him and be at least empathetic and considerate to Jed's feelings. I think even Toby knew he was in the wrong not offer an empathetic response but jeez he couldn't help himself to go for the jugular.
Shame it cut at the end. Toby says, “Doesn’t bother me. Cheers.”
I don't remember Toby's reaction going quite that way, but I guess I had too much Kentucky bourbon when I watched the episode and my memory is fuzzy. ;)
Jed is wrong. To be bourbon, it needs to meet the requirements of being crafted as bourbon, and made in the united states.
where the hell do you think Kentucky is ?
@@firstname4337 The point is that bartlet is being too specific -- Bourbon doesn't have to be made in Kentucky specifically, it just has to be made in the U.S. in general. There are a couple of other rules too (new charred oak barrel, 51% corn by volume iirc)
I warned you about this.
The Federal Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits, codified under 27 CFR §5 Subpart I states that bourbon made for U.S. consumption must be:
Produced in the U.S. (which includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico)
Made from a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn]
Aged in new, charred oak containers]
Distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume)
Entered into the container for aging at no more than 125 proof (62.5% alcohol by volume)
Bottled (like other whiskeys) at 80 proof or more (40% alcohol by volume)
95% of bourbon is manufactured in Kentucky.
what makes that scene is Tobies reaction
How did Bush get any work done when they were always filming the show in the White House?
You're assuming Bush did get any work done?
AFAIK they made a replica of the West Wing and the oval office. It's on-set.
@@Mosxutus a double soundstage same set up as ER also produced by John Wells who took over when Sorkin left and turned out the dogshit season five
@@Andreas-ni2lt Leo and Bush were party buddies
😂😂
1:00
multiple sclerosis toby
in a medical conversation his character would be conversant with an abbreviation of MS. they dumbed down his character intellect for the sake of the audience understanding.
Toby is the Eeyore of the show. Toby is Tiger. President is Pooh. CJ is Owl. And the viewer gets to be Christopher Robin. This show is just ripping off Winnie the Pooh.
You mean Josh is Tigger? Toby can't be both Eeyore and Tigger... but yes, he's definitely Eeyore. Also, I would say Leo is Owl. Actually I might say Sam is Tigger....both have the energy but Sam is a bit more idealistic/less cynical than Josh. CJ perhaps Piglet...? Actually I think the President is too smart to be Pooh... Josh is a bit more Pooh-bear like 😄
How on Earth can one of the greatest nations on earth with such talented human beings that produce this award winning drama series not manage to find presidential candidates that are fit for office where the ravages of time have affected both President Trump and President Biden? As your oldest friends from the U.K. see the men and women in the USA, who fought and died with our parents and grandparents in two World Wars suffer US Veterans being treated with contempt by one presidential candidate for 20th January 2025 and wilful neglect by the other presidential candidate, it is distressing to see both individuals use each others’ declining health as political bullets. For what it is worth, and this is from someone who served in uniform, the British Empire is no more. It declined and is gone. That hurt. Yes, a remarkable “Commonwealth” of nations replaces it and that is a wonderful thing. But our British Empire is no longer a global empire so large that it was described as one “upon which the sun never sets.” When I worked in America, building and creating jobs, it always impressed me how the United States looks after and respects its veterans and especially how so many Americans are rightfully proud to have their nation’s flag hoist on their homes and workplaces. The gentle advice. Wise words all Americans will recognise: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.“ My point? Both current presidential candidates have lost sight of: “one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Please America, whatever political party you come from, please persuade the current candidates to stop using each other’s advancing years and Ill health as political soundbites. Please ask both presidential candidates to retire with at least some dignity. To have worked until your eight and ninth decade on this planet is an honourable thing. The judgement of Solomon to cut the baby in half was a painful one to contemplate for religious and atheist alike. To persuade the two gentlemen, President Trump and President Biden to BOTH retire now would be a Herculean task. But the reputations of BOTH presidents would be enhanced by such a dignified exit. Much more importantly, two new candidates from the GOP and the Democrats would help stave off what is clearly the decline of America. As a Scot and a Brit , I would urge my friends in America, “it is not yet time for the American Republic to go the same way as the British Empire.” You guys elected Ronald Reagan from a certain profession. Without wanting to suggest a president from Hollywood Central Casting, someone with the credentials and calibre of Martin Sheen would go a long way to healing visibly painful and gaping division in a country which has the very opposite wording in its pledge of allegiance currently prevails from the actions of presidents #45 and #46. As with Martin Sheen’s President Bartlett, the award winning “West Wing” is fiction. Mostly. But surely there are talented people from the 280,000,000 population who have this vocabulary, intellect and honour of another great American, Mr Jeff Daniels and this iconic monologue: ruclips.net/video/ML3qYHWRIZk/видео.html Better still is this lesser known insight: ruclips.net/video/bPzClXk7GWw/видео.html This message is said with great affection and respect to my friends in the U.S.A. from one of your many, many friends in the U.K. Best wishes, Russ McLean, Tod Head Lighthouse Station, by Montrose, Scotland, Britain.
Interesting read.
Biden is the antithesis of a populist politician. He has a legacy of learning his craft and ability to negotiate to get things done, which he has demonstrably proved. Unfortunately Biden doesn't have the communication skills to rationalise with a populist candidate who doesn't have any moral scrupels.
Which makes remaining dignified in the face of a buffonish political opponent, a terribly difficult proposition.
It's easy to pass judgment from the sideline. Although I understand your sentiments.
Many American vets would probably disagree about how they're valued post service years.
You didn’t watch the DNC. Nothing wrong with Joe Biden. Trump is walking death, but then the way he’s lived that isn’t surprising. What really shocks me is the shallow superficial crap you come up with, and how you manage to hold such vile, uninformed views in a nation with a great education system.
If Toby had the courage of his conviction, he would have said, "You've betrayed the American People, Mr President. Resign and we can work with Hoynes to advance our agenda. If you don't, I'll resign and tell all to the press." Of course, that's not what happened. Toby raged about a coup d'etat, but in the end, he and the rest of the staff cared more about access to power than truth & honesty.
I don't know if I'd include the rest of the staff, but I do wonder where the show was going with this as I don't see it in line with Tony's character. Maybe Ashley, or even Sam at a push as he went off to do his own political career.
They all came true! Hospice president is truer than ever.
Joe and his Parkinson diagnosis.
tRump lost
I bet Aaron Sorkin severely regrets writing this scene in light of present circumstances with the current Democratic President
Why would he?
@@TheBrozBiden is prolly hiding PD and Trump has well developed dementia symptoms like his father Fred suffered.
Why would he?
doubt that very much
Today it would be:
Biden: I have late onset dementia
Toby: Sorry, sir?
Biden: What are you doing in my office?
Today it would be:
Trump: I'm a stable genius - Person, Woman, Man, Camera, TV
Toby: Sorry sir?
Trump: Magnets, shark, electricity, Hannibal lecter, covfefe, inject bleach, bing-bing-bong-bong-bing
@mark-ish Biden is a Non-cognitive potato deal with it