This is the most important scene of the Sorkin years of this show, I think. The first two seasons of this show, you don't actually feel like this president is capable of making errors in judgement or doing bad....even when we learn he's concealing a major illness, it seems reasonable. This is the first time in this show where we, along with Bartlet, realize exactly why this was so wrong. God I miss this show
Good point. But I don't think one would have to hide an illness to be president. Just assume every president is human and might have an illness at some point in their senior years. Roosevelt died in office, and others. Roosevelt didn't hide it, but he kinda hid how he was more wheelchair bound than the public thought. So?
*From the standpoint of ultimate reality, ALL OF US are 'dying' from the instant of fertilization and by that predicate, all of us are 'suffering from a fatal disease' that is ongoing and relentless* ____________ *'FDR' suffered from 'Polio Myelitis' before he was POTUS, yet the disease he suffered-from had no bearing whatever on his abilities to think and rationalize and make decisions regarding 'problem-solving'* *Suffering from a disease-process does NOT automatically dictate a 'non comp mentis' condition exists* ____________ *'Toby' is arguing what belongs in a 'Harvard Law Moot Court' scenario instead of factual reality, and the concept of 'Is the finger on the button rational?' is rendered 'moot' by the reality of built-in safeguards and protocols that involve actual real persons who must ALSO render consent to 'push the button'*
@@capone51 *If that's all you have, it's pathetic* *Constitutional clauses provide for emergencies of long-standing duration that 'make it doubtful as-to fitness for Office'* _________ *A chronic illness does not predicate an inability to perform Presidential duties and responsibilities* *If an illness 'defined ability' then Lincoln was 'unfit' as well as 'FDR' and 'JFK'...yet Lincoln was able to preserve the Union despite blinding pain from migraine-attacks that left him exhausted and unable to bear bright light for many hours after an 'attack' and 'FDR' suffered pain constantly from Polio* *Kennedy's back-pain was 'intractable' meaning it could not be relieved without powerful steroids and back-braces and still the pain of doing nothing more than rising from bed could leave him gasping from exertion to 'sit-up'* __________ *The 'Constitution' is a 'Guiding Influence' NOT 'writ on stone from God'* *Many 'Amendments' have been added over the centuries and the fact they occurred means the Document was not 'Holy Writ' of itself in perpetuity ab initio*
I love the fact that as Toby gives his "coup d'état" speech, Bartlett gradually moves to stand behind the Resolute Desk. It's like he's hiding from Toby in a way, knowing he's right and that's the only way to keep a leg up on him in that room. With that, the irony of Bartlett having a fit of rage behind the desk with Leo acting perfectly calm is beautiful. It underscores Toby's point so well, even more so that Leo, in that moment, is being a stronger leader than Bartlett. Sorkin is a genius.
@@Ares99999 Leo isn't actually particularly calm. He realizes Toby's right while Toby's speaking, and the horror of it is written all over Leo's face. He recognizes that Jed is getting defensive and weaponizing Toby's deep and abiding affection for him as a means of deflecting from the fact that Toby is 100% right, and Jed has no actual argument in defense of his actions beyond 'screw you, I had a medical emergency.' Leo keeps as cool as he possibly can because he knows, as Jed does deep down, that this conversation will be addressed later when cooler heads have prevailed and Leo has had the chance to settle both men down.
Toby's reaction after he snapped I felt sort of illustrated another thing, especially after Bartlett asked him whether he was pissed because of the process being violated or because he was out of the loop. The president got his goat back there because he was right...Toby was upset that he was the one that didn't know. I mean the two of them were friends beyond their official duties and it would hurt not to know when your friend is putting on a charade and hiding things from you.
I rewatched the show all the way through a couple months ago and the ticking clock in the background is featured in a lot of the early seasons during tense moments. I think Sorkin used it almost as an extra character, to add seriousness but also urgency to a scene.
If you watch from 2:10, Richard Schiff's performance is just blinding. He starts low and relatively calm and builds and builds until he spits the line "THE VICE PRESIDENT'S AUTHORITY WAS MURKY AT BEST" and then just keeps on going... So good.
@@Trig242 espescially because bartlet isn't behaving in an honest way, writing off all of tobey's complaints because 'nothing bad happened' is insane and bad faith as hell.
@@Trig242Bartlett is a really bully and a son of a bitch at times. He knows he's wrong but can't help but be a dick here. Too much ego and pride and positional mystique to maintain. Which is absurd, because these are HIS people. He makes up for it but he's such an interesting flawed character
3:48 John Spencer was incredible. One look and one word was all he needed to convey that Leo knew that Toby was 100% correct, and that it had never occurred to Leo until that second that he had done anything wrong.
+jesusthroughmary If he's 100% right, why didn't Toby go ahead and denounce the so-called coup d'état in the open? Maybe, because the President is also right at 4:28? Part of the reason Toby is so pissed is probably because he didn't figure it all out before.
+Ares99999 That's partly it for sure. But in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, Toby wouldn't have been thinking about the constitutional issues. He was worried for his friends, for the President, and enraged at the shooters. Remember how he goes a bit mental and wants to lock up everyone with a white sheet? A calmer Toby (which is a bit of an oxymoron) would never have disregarded the 1st Amendment like that. Then as you come out of the aftermath, you busy yourself with the 400 new issues and problems that come up every day in the White House. I doubt Toby has thought about the constitutional issues much at all before this scene. It's not even really connected with his main quibble. Toby's main argument is "HOW COULD YOU HAVE LIED ABOUT THE MS," not any constitutional issues related to an unrelated shooting. Really, he's just enraged at the President at this point and is throwing everything he has at him in an attempt to show him how irresponsible he's been.
+ticklish This is great. This, I can fully get behind. Excellent take on Toby. What I've always liked about his character is that he often has the right idea, but just phrases it in a way that makes the person angry rather than just thoughtful. Leo, when he learned about the MS, was angry too. But rather than getting into an angry fit - which he knew wouldn't solve a thing and, indeed, would potentially make it worse - he pretty much calmly called Bartlett on his reasons and his trust issues. Toby... he's not Leo. He's no tempered, or subtle, like Leo. Toby assaults what he dislikes with a flamethrower. So, here, even though the main point he wants to make is perfectly valid, he's too angry and volatile to realize not only is Bartlett well aware of all of this, but he says it in a way that is absolutely certain to set Bartlett off. That's Toby. He can be right and still sound like an ass. Heheh.
Ares99999 Think you're right. I think it also has a lot to do with the relationships the two pairs have. Leo and the President - they're almost soulmates in how well they connect with each other, how well they know each other. Leo's revealed the darkest sides of his addiction to the President and been helped by him on his way back up. And he's hidden things from the President before- the collapse of his marriage for one. He understands that Bartlet hid the MS not just because he wanted to be the President, but because he wanted to spare him the worry. He understands better and forgives easier because in this context Bartlet is his friend before he is the President, if you see what I mean. Toby and the President - there isn't that friendship. There's deep respect and admiration, sure, but Toby views himself as the President's conscience, big time. As a boy from a troubled background who's come face to face with some of the hardest and most heartwrenching problems facing people in America, he's 100% conscious at every moment that he's in the White House with an opportunity to make things right, and he never wants to let the President forget it. Remember the first State of the Union? "We're HERE now. Tonight we do an IMMENSE THING." To Leo, this is his friend keeping something from him. To Toby, this is the President LYING to EVERYONE (and especially him).
+Ares99999 Í think those different relationships are also reflected in how Bartlet himself deals with the reveals to the two of them. While yes, he's in a more fragile state when telling Leo (having just had an episode) - he cries and is apologetic. With Toby he's in his face. He's petulant. He's angry. That's because he knows Toby isn't going to take it as well, and he doesn't want to face up to the scrutiny. Remember the quote from the first season? "I couldn't live without you Toby. I mean it. I'd be in the tall grass. I'd be in the weeds... I know I disappoint you sometimes. I mean I can sense your disappointment. And I only get mad because I know you're right a lot of the times."
"I feel fine by the way, thanks for asking" - I've never noticed before that he repeats that line verbatim in this scene. I'd never really appreciated how flustered and hurt Bartlett is here, he's obviously angry, but when he repeats that line possibly without even realising it and then literally goes and hides behind Leo, he looks scared and small. He's afraid of how big a mistake he might have made and he's ashamed to have it laid bare by Toby, a man whose respect he values hugely. What a scene, and what performances, not least Toby's look at 3:50 where for all his righteous certainty he still can't meet the president's gaze. Man, what a show.
@@Ares99999He looks terrified, which he is, because he fears it’s gonna be taken from him. Which is why he says earlier, when Leo goes to get Toby, Now It Begins.
Bradley gave an absolutely EXCELLENT performance and the Emmy was well deserved for Noel but Richard defined his entire career and his talent beautifully into one scene and absolutely raised the bar for actors.
That's why he was so pissed with Toby. He knew he was right, but he didn't want to hear that at that point, much less from one of his closest advisors. He expected to hear that from the Republicans and talk shows, not a fellow Democrat. I definitely understood both sides in that moment, but you're correct: Toby was definitely right.
The first time I watched this, and Bartlet snapped at Toby, I jumped out of my seat. But on later viewings... frankly Bartlet sound petulant. Like a kid being told "no" for the first time.
I get overwhelmed when I don't have cheerios and I cry all day. Leo shows overwhelm once as chief of staff and it is here, when he touches his hand to his head, something he does at no other time in the series. Talk about economy of acting, synergy between role and actor.
It took me a while to get behind the character of Toby, but moments like these were what bought me over. His likeability is much more subtle than that of Josh and Sam, and he's best in the super-tense scenes like this one and the ones with Andy.
I think this scene goes to show how ridiculous it was to have Toby as the military space shuttle leak. There is no way the man in this scene would then go and do that.
+tweetSP0RT I know some people have a problem with how that played out but I thought it was entirely within character for Toby to be the one behind the lead, as the President stated he was always headed towards this implosion. I think that the death of his brother, the departure of so many senior staff members (Josh, Sam, Leo, and Will), the sudden severity of the President's M.S., the rejection by his Ex-wife to marry him, the fact that Josh never asked him to help pick the next Presidential candidate, and the idea that this really was his last hurrah forever in politics, all of that I believe just made for the perfect combination that resulted in his implosion. That said, I do think after Sorkin left they turned up Toby's "assholeness" to the 11th degree and basically had him yelling at something every episode in addition to constantly berating Will. But, I still think it was totally in-character to have Toby leak the story, although I thought the execution of that "mystery" was super sloppy. Still, Toby always held himself up as having the highest moral standard in the White House and yelled at anyone who didn't live up to his sense of right and wrong or were against it.
I remember watching this on Netflix for the first time only a few years ago. My heart was beating out of my chest. Superb acting and dialogue. Unbelievable.
Moments like this proved Bartlett fallible, capable of being wrong. Human, in other words. Most of the time he was a bit too good to be true, this brought him back to reality.
I found the ending of let Bartlett be Bartlett a bit funny. Leo gave his “it may cost us the Whitehouse” speech. And then says “let’s get in the game.” How late was it? What could you possibly do at that hour except go home?
A really bold and brilliant scene. Toby is acting as the symbol of Jed’s relentless conscience that won’t let him bluster away the truth. As an ethical man, Jed has felt guilty about concealing his health from the start but like many powerful people, he tried to convince himself it was ok because of a “higher calling.” Toby is voicing to Jed exactly what he has been trying to suppress and his reaction to it is rage and arrogance. It’s fascinating through the whole MS revelation that the Bartlett’s refuse to acknowledge the degree to which they were wrong and their staff and White House counsel has to make them realize otherwise.
Sorkin and the team are geniuses. This scene covers so many different issues. The acting is outstanding. Nobody in such a situation is going to behave well. Toby looks like a righteous ass ( whilst holding the moral, legal and ethical high ground), Leo is torn between understanding Toby but being loyal to the President, Bartlett knows he’s wrong and that’s why he has no come-back that works on any level but ‘I’m fine thank you by the way’..... Totally believable.
"For 90 minutes that night, there was a coup d'etat in this country." That's the line you edit out of the email once you take a breather. Toby knows he went one step too far with that. Incredible scene - writing, acting, everything. My oh my.
@@lizziebkennedy7505 Three incredible performances! Jed is in the wrong for sure, but I think Toby also knows that he could have made his point without that last line, which is why his body seems to shrink and his eyes quicken.
He isn't wrong. For 90 minutes Leo, an unelected official, was de facto president. That is ONLY the result of Bartlett wanting to hide his MS. His irresponsible self interest puts 300 million people at risk and Toby is the bad guy for calling it out? Fuck that.
@@lizziebkennedy7505 his regret is revealed at a later episode after Josh asks him how he took the news. Toby said, "I went ballistic at him. In the Oval Office."
Respectfully, this analysis is off the mark. What business does Toby have to suppress himself? You think he is afraid to jeopardize his professional relationship by losing his temper? No... those are not the stakes within this context... At best, He is telling truth to power, while trying to find the "voice" that fits the scenario - as he distills precisely what the history books would contain, despite his disbelief. First consider Toby as the appointed storyteller for the affairs of the highest office in the land. His role is to communicate the message - he is the Herald, Apollo, etc. So here he is performing his duty to the country by narrating the events so as to elucidate the truth and provide a reflection , as a senior advisor. The outrageous story that will be observed by the masses, and that if brought to light, will have the potential to disrupt the entire presidency any and everything they have worked for so far. Toby is saying what needs to be said - because covering it up for a second longer is the exact nature of this scandal - and in this moment in his bewilderment Toby must question all of Bartlet's decision making up to this point to wrap his brain around these shocking new details. To Toby, a citizen himself, he is expressing his outrage that his leader could be so irresponsible.
“I know, I can’t believe we’re all still here” “Refer to my wife as Mrs. Bartlet or the First Lady” “A drug induced haze” “I don’t think I got shot because I had MS” “And the walls came tumbling down” “I’m fine by the way, thanks for asking” “Toby’s concern for my health …” “Shut up !” I don’t hear any rebuttals to Toby’s arguments aside from “[insert character’s name or position here] was there” … as if those people can disobey the President, or the Bartlet being sarcastic to deflect blame, or simply pulling rank. Bottom line: he knows he’s wrong, and it’s killing him, and Toby is in his face about it, and Bartel can’t defend himself.
@@Trig242 i think Toby thought he could, which of course led to the progression and downfall of his character. I think Bartlet had the edge, but not in this case, because he knoew that he was wrong.
Incredible moment in time for the show when Leo says "Sir" to the president in defense of Toby. There are many times when he cut short one of the staff just by saying their name, but this time it's the president.
I can't think of another show on television with better talented actors, well-written scripts and well-directed scenes than The West Wing. It is episodes like this one, specifically, that made this show so epic and large.
Im with Toby here, important measures werent taken cuse Bartlet wanted to keep lying about his medical disease. Being elected on a major lie is bad enough but once someone can find demonstrable proof that it interfered with the most important office in the world, it goes without saying that Toby won this one.
There's no question about it, Bartlet admits it himself in a few years. This is the beginning of a long and excellent character arc of him slowly realizing that just because he is a good man and a good President and undeserving of his illness, it still does not make the deception right.
Help me out, is the problem that Jed should have written a pre-signed letter in anticipation that his MS would debilitate him, clarifying that Hoynes would have power until he recovered?
Brilliant.... Schiff was my fav. on the show (well, aside from Janney), and this is why. He stole every moment, and he could have been an unlikeable character, but instead he was the most lovable of them all, b/c he was so brilliant and passionate. Serious acting chops on top of it. His best moment is this, and season 4, episode "25," when he tells his buds "the babies were born." He was so awkward, yet so excited, and he had tears in his eyes. BRILLIANT, nuanced acting.
This scene should be called "All the money in my pockets." It's such an incredible line. I've said the phrase many times when suggesting bets with people...nobody has any idea why I say it that way. This is one of the finest moments in all of television.
"Murky at best" "all the money in my pockets against..." "and the walls came tumbling down" I love Aaron Sorkin's writing so much. This is my favorite show, I own every season. I wish Sorking would write again and that he would be given immunity to use whatever he needs to as an aide to write. Brilliant
You’ve gotta be pretty happy with how that turned out. Steve Jobs, Moneyball, and The Social Network. 3 of the most well written movies of their time. I’d say you got your wish and how could you not be pretty happy with how that turned out? 🙂
@@nicholaszeitner2134 Definitely! I am still a huge fan 13 years later and always excited to see Sorkin is working on something new. The Newsroom was another great one. I really wish there was a way for me to see his adaptation of "To Kill a Mockingbird" with Jeff Daniels.
Jeds got his hands in his pockets at the end. If you know, you know. Also the framing/cinematography in this scene are masterful, as are the script and performances
This scene shows that reasonable, relatively principled people can be corrupted by power and its pursuit. Bartlett always came across as a "straight shooter" with the voters - always having a reputation for complete honesty with the voters. And now, when he believed the illness would have cost him the election, or cost him a future election, he chose to hide the condition. His anger is the result of Toby's righteous indignation. I saw no indication that Toby was mad about being kept out of the loop from the beginning. Bartlett was angry that he had been caught, and was afraid that public disclosure could "ruin" him. It didn't of course, but that's only because the series got renewed.... ;-)
Yeah this story line did show a different side of the President. He even told Leo that he didn't tell him about the MS because he wanted to be President.
***** I think you're absolutely right. I also think it shows that Bartlet really is a human being after all. He made a decision that seemed reasonable at the beginning. He didn't expect to win. One thing lead to another and he got caught. His reaction was spot-on in my opinion.
Depends on your definition of "corruption." I was using the word not in the sense of "political corruption," but in the meaning of "1. having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain." A lie of omission on a level of that magnitude is definitely still a lie.
***** Excellent breakdown, couldn't agree more! It always surprised me that people didn't get that Bartlet did lie and did something corrupt. Even Leo tried to down play it saying he didn't lie when he clearly did.
There is that moment when President Bartlett realizes, and Leo realizes, they are wrong. Toby is the only one with the intelligence to investigate it at that point, and the fortitude to tell it to them in terms that can not be denied, and in turn, face the wrath of powerful angry men who realize they committed what COULD have been a tragic betrayal of their oath to the people. Wonderful writing and acting.
God Damn this is some fine acting all around. My favourite part and one of the major lines i remember from the entire show (and i've watched every episode at least twice) is "The National Security advisor & the Secretary of State didn't know WHO they were taking their orders from!!. I wasn't in the situation room that night, but i'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that it was Leo, WHO NOONE ELECTED. For 90 minutes that night there was a coup d'etat in this country"
He was absolutely right to question it. You can't have someone's back if they're knowingly lying to you. They all deserved to know what was going on because they were the ones standing in front of him. How many times did we hear them say "I serve at the pleasure of the President"?
+Monica Adams You get a guy elected to the White House, you serve at his pleasure, you make sure he operates like a professional without going off the deep end and then, you find out about this? You're damn right Toby's got a good reason to question it. They practically committed fraud without knowing it. Toby knew for a fact and the letter not being signed, that was a breach in procedure and succession of power.
@@Legba85 Fraud wasn't really Toby's point; the lack of a signed letter delegating authority, combined with Bartlett being incapacitated, meant that nobody was in clear control. All of those events that Toby cited were things that the President and/or Vice President had the authority to act upon -- if any of them had truly gone off-the-rails, the ambiguity of authority would have left the US unprepared for any kind of prompt response in a time-sensitive crisis situation.
The greatest thing about Toby is that he isn't here to take anyone's shit. He will go down fighting, and he will go down with his principles. He was the most idealistic character written on the show, and it stayed that way till the end.
I love the symbolic way, at the end of his diatribe, Bartlett moves around to put Leo physically between himself and Toby. I suppose one could read all sorts of things into that...
I’m a Conservative too. And I wouldn’t have missed one second of this program. It’s still a favorite. The quality was equaled only by ER. I disagreed with 90% of what was said in a political vein. But, like Ainsley Hayes, I’d have worked there in a heartbeat.
One of the subtle things I love about these scenes is there are several points where someone says something, the other persons says huh and the other repeats what they said. Bartlett and Toby are so distracted by their own thoughts. It gives such a slight nod to how serious this moment is.
that is exactly why he has the job because he can spread a thought around and make you think Most of the time if you watch he is in the back of the scene just quietly watching what others say and then chewing on it before say what he has to say
One of many scenes where Jed's fatherly side came out. Toby's face when Jed got angry was definitely the face of a child who crossed the line. One of the best.
I have MS and you do not get stupid when an episode occurs, just slow down. But, I become more perceptive as a measure of compensation! I adores this show and miss it very much!
I too remember seeing this scene, I was about your age (I was fresh out of college), and saying the same thing! It was scary! IT WAS INTENSE! It was THE BEST SHOW ON TV!
"i can't believe we are all still here" -"and the walls came tumbling down"- sarcasm at its best... " I'm fine by the way, thanks for asking" --it goes to show that although he's angry, and questions Toby's motives- "are u annoyed that there were 15 people ahead of you" his conscience is telling him that Toby is right...and it pains him to admit it
Toby was 100% right here. I always kind of wished that CJ had been there as well. She would have been able to show Bartlett more of what Toby was trying to convey. Toby was hurt and it wasn't him as an advisor or him as a campaign strategist it was him as an American voter who believed in Bartlett and was let down. It's one of those rare moments on the show when Bartlett was dead wrong and one of the even fewer moments when I disliked him for yelling at Toby. I would have been mad as hell too. He lied to Toby. I honestly don't think it was Toby being upset that the President didn't tell him first but was definitely about the lie. For a second there Bartlett was just like all the other politicians and it's heartbreaking.
Every president needs someone like Toby who is willing to tell him things he doesn't want to hear. "Group Think" is a dangerous thing and leads to all sorts of bad decisions and disasters.
+Noah Levine Yeah, he was acting immaturely. Though the seeds had been planted earlier, this was really the beginning of the MS arc, which culminated with Bartlett fully accepting responsibility for his actions and accepting Congressional censure to protect Leo in the next season. At this point, he was still trying to convince himself that, having avoided actually breaking the law in any technical sense, he hadn't done anything wrong. To his credit, he did apologize to Toby later in this episode.
+Jayanth Kumar In later episodes Bartlet flat out admits "I screwed up, I was wrong, and I've been covering my ass this whole time" & I think this scene is part of the 'Bartlet won't admit wrongdoing' storyarc.
So well written AND acted. To find the one you put on the pedestal, the one to whom you viewed the history of the nation was most precious, violated the fundamental base of the nation, the freedom from tyranny. It doesn't matter that it wasn't done with malice, what matters is the man at the top at that moment was not granted those powers by the people, and that is unforgivable. Even though I don't think that thought crossed their minds at the time.
Exactly 👏🏻👏🏻 it doesnt matter if it was for 45 minutes or 45 seconds. Be it a hairline fracture or "the walls coming tumbling down" it is still the act of recklessly surrendering of the entire system that protects our freedoms
I don't agree with his views on politics most of the time, but I would hire Toby Ziegler to work for me any day of the week. You have to be born with passion like that. And to take a (correct) stand like that, in that room, takes a major set of big brass cajones.
@fidelio1980 Right on all points. Toby didn't have time for niceties, he was concerned that the leader of the country was compromised and had been during a time of crisis. As the communications director, he knew it would be a PR nightmare at best if word got out without a gameplan on how to handle it, not to mention his own concerns and the fact that his confidence in the leadership just got rocked. It wasn't that he felt left out, it was that his trust in Jed and Leo had been betrayed.
Three great actors in this scene, but John Spencer may have had the best acting in his scene. His face and body language throughout this scene spoke volumes… he didn’t even have to speak, his physical reactions said everything.
The dreamer in me hopes every White House has someone who feels comfortable being Toby at that moment when such a thing arises. Only one is needed, though.
Beauty of this scene is how Richard Schiff plays this. He knows Toby has to go through with this line of questioning but he doesn't want to in a sense. He feels someone has to step up for the process and the letter of the law, and tragically he has to do it, personal feelings be damned. The writing is, of course, exemplary. But it's only words on a page until an actor like Schiff brings the meaning out. This should be required course study for any would be actor.
@Derekivery It was explained in the series that their needed to be a letter because the 25th no long made it clear who would assume command under the situtation that the president was neither dead nor stepped down. When Bartlet was shot, he was still alive and hadn't relequished command to the VP, thus Leo McGary ruled the USA for about 90 minutes.
I have heard others express this but, this is why Toby as the leak didn't make sense. This Toby would have never in a million years betrayed Jed Bartlett.
though each and every character in this series is righteous, Toby is a man of wisest intellect and possesses a rare ability to speak his mind without looking at any possible outcome when he knows he is right. Personally speaking i would have preferred to see him as the Chief of Staff in place CJ!!!!
But you forget the scene between Leo and Ainsley where he tells her "the President likes smart people who disagree with him". He doesn't want yes-men around him and he won't fire people for presenting a valid argument they believe in.
I think the only person who's indignation is so covered in crap in this scene was Bartlett. He knows the severity of what happened and what is happening and he is just frustrated with it. Toby represents the "everyman" in this show and this is how, at least initially, without any real forethought and some minor information, how they would react.
You know, people who didn’t like this show (yes, they DO exist) would say-“ it’s too preachy”, “it doesn’t work like that in real politics” or “it’s over-the-top dramatics” etc... But they never accepted it as just great damn entertainment, period. Those people never allowed themselves to just enjoy it!
@Hilius8 "Incapacited" did not include voluntary anesthesia, and thus the President would have to relinquish power via a written letter. Now, had Bartlet fainted or died from the bullet wound, the Speaker of the House would declare him incapacitated, and promoted the VP on his behalf. But because Bartlet was fully conscious when he went under, and didn't formerly relinquish his authority, no clear transfer of power took place. Just my interpretation, though.
WW was TV gold at it's highest level. I'm a lifelong Conservative and I can tell you that if Washington DC reflected the Democrats portrayed in WW they would be absolutely unbeatable.
This is the most important scene of the Sorkin years of this show, I think. The first two seasons of this show, you don't actually feel like this president is capable of making errors in judgement or doing bad....even when we learn he's concealing a major illness, it seems reasonable. This is the first time in this show where we, along with Bartlet, realize exactly why this was so wrong. God I miss this show
Perfectly, perfectly put. At this moment he becomes fallible, even grievously so.
Good point. But I don't think one would have to hide an illness to be president. Just assume every president is human and might have an illness at some point in their senior years. Roosevelt died in office, and others. Roosevelt didn't hide it, but he kinda hid how he was more wheelchair bound than the public thought. So?
*From the standpoint of ultimate reality, ALL OF US are 'dying' from the instant of fertilization and by that predicate, all of us are 'suffering from a fatal disease' that is ongoing and relentless*
____________
*'FDR' suffered from 'Polio Myelitis' before he was POTUS, yet the disease he suffered-from had no bearing whatever on his abilities to think and rationalize
and make decisions regarding 'problem-solving'*
*Suffering from a disease-process does NOT automatically dictate a 'non comp mentis' condition exists*
____________
*'Toby' is arguing what belongs in a 'Harvard Law Moot Court' scenario instead of factual reality, and the concept of 'Is the finger on the button rational?' is rendered 'moot' by the reality of built-in safeguards and protocols that involve actual real persons who must ALSO render consent to 'push the button'*
Who no one ELECTED! Toby's loyalty was to the Constitution. As should all of ours should be.
@@capone51 *If that's all you have, it's pathetic*
*Constitutional clauses provide for emergencies of long-standing duration that 'make it doubtful as-to fitness for Office'*
_________
*A chronic illness does not predicate an inability to perform Presidential duties and responsibilities*
*If an illness 'defined ability' then Lincoln was 'unfit' as well as 'FDR' and 'JFK'...yet Lincoln was able to preserve the Union despite blinding pain from migraine-attacks that left him exhausted and unable to bear bright light for many hours after an 'attack' and 'FDR' suffered pain constantly from Polio*
*Kennedy's back-pain was 'intractable' meaning it could not be relieved without powerful steroids and back-braces and still the pain of doing nothing more than rising from bed could leave him gasping from exertion to 'sit-up'*
__________
*The 'Constitution' is a 'Guiding Influence' NOT 'writ on stone from God'*
*Many 'Amendments' have been added over the centuries and the fact they occurred means the Document was not 'Holy Writ' of itself in perpetuity ab initio*
I love the fact that as Toby gives his "coup d'état" speech, Bartlett gradually moves to stand behind the Resolute Desk. It's like he's hiding from Toby in a way, knowing he's right and that's the only way to keep a leg up on him in that room. With that, the irony of Bartlett having a fit of rage behind the desk with Leo acting perfectly calm is beautiful. It underscores Toby's point so well, even more so that Leo, in that moment, is being a stronger leader than Bartlett. Sorkin is a genius.
Of course Leo is calm. He's not being attacked here. Also, he doesn't have a fit of rage behind the desk, he outright gets in Toby's face.
And after he gets in Toby's face, he gets right back behind Leo.
@@Ares99999 Leo isn't actually particularly calm. He realizes Toby's right while Toby's speaking, and the horror of it is written all over Leo's face. He recognizes that Jed is getting defensive and weaponizing Toby's deep and abiding affection for him as a means of deflecting from the fact that Toby is 100% right, and Jed has no actual argument in defense of his actions beyond 'screw you, I had a medical emergency.' Leo keeps as cool as he possibly can because he knows, as Jed does deep down, that this conversation will be addressed later when cooler heads have prevailed and Leo has had the chance to settle both men down.
Just so.
I get nostalgic for a time when it was shocking to hear the words "coup d'etat" in this country.
Toby's reaction after he snapped I felt sort of illustrated another thing, especially after Bartlett asked him whether he was pissed because of the process being violated or because he was out of the loop. The president got his goat back there because he was right...Toby was upset that he was the one that didn't know. I mean the two of them were friends beyond their official duties and it would hurt not to know when your friend is putting on a charade and hiding things from you.
Richard Schiff got an Emmy nomination for this episode, btw.
He won the Emmy the year before for "In Excelsis Deo"
and he should’ve won
Season 2 is Bradley Whitford's best but Schiff would have won again.
I love that you can hear the clock ticking throughout this scene.
It makes it so much more tense. I love it. Lol
I rewatched the show all the way through a couple months ago and the ticking clock in the background is featured in a lot of the early seasons during tense moments. I think Sorkin used it almost as an extra character, to add seriousness but also urgency to a scene.
Whole episode has that rhythm
If you watch from 2:10, Richard Schiff's performance is just blinding. He starts low and relatively calm and builds and builds until he spits the line "THE VICE PRESIDENT'S AUTHORITY WAS MURKY AT BEST" and then just keeps on going... So good.
"and the walls came tumbling down" is such a prick thing to say, especially when Toby had him dead to rights hahaha
@@Trig242 espescially because bartlet isn't behaving in an honest way, writing off all of tobey's complaints because 'nothing bad happened' is insane and bad faith as hell.
@@Trig242Bartlett is a really bully and a son of a bitch at times. He knows he's wrong but can't help but be a dick here. Too much ego and pride and positional mystique to maintain. Which is absurd, because these are HIS people. He makes up for it but he's such an interesting flawed character
3:48 John Spencer was incredible. One look and one word was all he needed to convey that Leo knew that Toby was 100% correct, and that it had never occurred to Leo until that second that he had done anything wrong.
+jesusthroughmary If he's 100% right, why didn't Toby go ahead and denounce the so-called coup d'état in the open?
Maybe, because the President is also right at 4:28? Part of the reason Toby is so pissed is probably because he didn't figure it all out before.
+Ares99999 That's partly it for sure.
But in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, Toby wouldn't have been thinking about the constitutional issues. He was worried for his friends, for the President, and enraged at the shooters. Remember how he goes a bit mental and wants to lock up everyone with a white sheet? A calmer Toby (which is a bit of an oxymoron) would never have disregarded the 1st Amendment like that. Then as you come out of the aftermath, you busy yourself with the 400 new issues and problems that come up every day in the White House.
I doubt Toby has thought about the constitutional issues much at all before this scene. It's not even really connected with his main quibble. Toby's main argument is "HOW COULD YOU HAVE LIED ABOUT THE MS," not any constitutional issues related to an unrelated shooting. Really, he's just enraged at the President at this point and is throwing everything he has at him in an attempt to show him how irresponsible he's been.
+ticklish This is great. This, I can fully get behind. Excellent take on Toby. What I've always liked about his character is that he often has the right idea, but just phrases it in a way that makes the person angry rather than just thoughtful.
Leo, when he learned about the MS, was angry too. But rather than getting into an angry fit - which he knew wouldn't solve a thing and, indeed, would potentially make it worse - he pretty much calmly called Bartlett on his reasons and his trust issues.
Toby... he's not Leo. He's no tempered, or subtle, like Leo. Toby assaults what he dislikes with a flamethrower. So, here, even though the main point he wants to make is perfectly valid, he's too angry and volatile to realize not only is Bartlett well aware of all of this, but he says it in a way that is absolutely certain to set Bartlett off.
That's Toby. He can be right and still sound like an ass. Heheh.
Ares99999 Think you're right. I think it also has a lot to do with the relationships the two pairs have.
Leo and the President - they're almost soulmates in how well they connect with each other, how well they know each other. Leo's revealed the darkest sides of his addiction to the President and been helped by him on his way back up. And he's hidden things from the President before- the collapse of his marriage for one. He understands that Bartlet hid the MS not just because he wanted to be the President, but because he wanted to spare him the worry. He understands better and forgives easier because in this context Bartlet is his friend before he is the President, if you see what I mean.
Toby and the President - there isn't that friendship. There's deep respect and admiration, sure, but Toby views himself as the President's conscience, big time. As a boy from a troubled background who's come face to face with some of the hardest and most heartwrenching problems facing people in America, he's 100% conscious at every moment that he's in the White House with an opportunity to make things right, and he never wants to let the President forget it. Remember the first State of the Union? "We're HERE now. Tonight we do an IMMENSE THING." To Leo, this is his friend keeping something from him. To Toby, this is the President LYING to EVERYONE (and especially him).
+Ares99999 Í think those different relationships are also reflected in how Bartlet himself deals with the reveals to the two of them. While yes, he's in a more fragile state when telling Leo (having just had an episode) - he cries and is apologetic. With Toby he's in his face. He's petulant. He's angry. That's because he knows Toby isn't going to take it as well, and he doesn't want to face up to the scrutiny.
Remember the quote from the first season?
"I couldn't live without you Toby. I mean it. I'd be in the tall grass. I'd be in the weeds... I know I disappoint
you sometimes. I mean I can sense your disappointment. And I only get mad because
I know you're right a lot of the times."
"I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets" has entred my vocabulary
It's even better when you realize Toby would know that there wasn't a dime in his pockets.
So thing against nothing. ahah this was in a time when people used cash.
@@SolidMikeP The president doesn't carry cash. Theres nothing for him to spend it on or at. It's even referenced in the poker episode.
"I'll bet all the money in my Apple wallet against all the money in your Apple wallet" 😄
"I feel fine by the way, thanks for asking" - I've never noticed before that he repeats that line verbatim in this scene. I'd never really appreciated how flustered and hurt Bartlett is here, he's obviously angry, but when he repeats that line possibly without even realising it and then literally goes and hides behind Leo, he looks scared and small. He's afraid of how big a mistake he might have made and he's ashamed to have it laid bare by Toby, a man whose respect he values hugely.
What a scene, and what performances, not least Toby's look at 3:50 where for all his righteous certainty he still can't meet the president's gaze. Man, what a show.
He doesn't hide behind Leo, he gets in Toby's face. He looks angry, not scared. And he looks impressive, not small.
@@Ares99999He looks terrified, which he is, because he fears it’s gonna be taken from him. Which is why he says earlier, when Leo goes to get Toby, Now It Begins.
“It was Leo...WHO NO ONE ELECTED”
Epic!
Sort of like our current administration. Unfit to campaign, but somehow fit to continue to hold office?
@@dontfighttheriptide4091huh? Unfit has hit a ceiling.
Bradley gave an absolutely EXCELLENT performance and the Emmy was well deserved for Noel but Richard defined his entire career and his talent beautifully into one scene and absolutely raised the bar for actors.
For once, President Bartlett was wrong. Toby was right and they all knew it.
robertus632 Indeed.
That's why he was so pissed with Toby. He knew he was right, but he didn't want to hear that at that point, much less from one of his closest advisors. He expected to hear that from the Republicans and talk shows, not a fellow Democrat. I definitely understood both sides in that moment, but you're correct: Toby was definitely right.
The first time I watched this, and Bartlet snapped at Toby, I jumped out of my seat.
But on later viewings... frankly Bartlet sound petulant. Like a kid being told "no" for the first time.
Toby was both the most dogmatic and the only consistent compass, and they shat on him throughout.
It wasn't the only time.
"Your father hit you, didn't he?"
I get overwhelmed when I don't have cheerios and I cry all day. Leo shows overwhelm once as chief of staff and it is here, when he touches his hand to his head, something he does at no other time in the series. Talk about economy of acting, synergy between role and actor.
It took me a while to get behind the character of Toby, but moments like these were what bought me over. His likeability is much more subtle than that of Josh and Sam, and he's best in the super-tense scenes like this one and the ones with Andy.
I think this scene goes to show how ridiculous it was to have Toby as the military space shuttle leak. There is no way the man in this scene would then go and do that.
The show fell off without Sorkin. He would have never wrote that plot line.
tweetSP0RT Richard Schiff agreed. In an interview he said "Toby" would NEVER do that and figured he *HAD* to be covering for someone.
Tigerman1138 In my mind Toby's ex-wife somehow found out and he was covering for her.
+tweetSP0RT I always thought he was covering for CJ because i think he was in love with her by then. Just my opinion.
+tweetSP0RT I know some people have a problem with how that played out but I thought it was entirely within character for Toby to be the one behind the lead, as the President stated he was always headed towards this implosion. I think that the death of his brother, the departure of so many senior staff members (Josh, Sam, Leo, and Will), the sudden severity of the President's M.S., the rejection by his Ex-wife to marry him, the fact that Josh never asked him to help pick the next Presidential candidate, and the idea that this really was his last hurrah forever in politics, all of that I believe just made for the perfect combination that resulted in his implosion.
That said, I do think after Sorkin left they turned up Toby's "assholeness" to the 11th degree and basically had him yelling at something every episode in addition to constantly berating Will. But, I still think it was totally in-character to have Toby leak the story, although I thought the execution of that "mystery" was super sloppy. Still, Toby always held himself up as having the highest moral standard in the White House and yelled at anyone who didn't live up to his sense of right and wrong or were against it.
I remember watching this on Netflix for the first time only a few years ago. My heart was beating out of my chest. Superb acting and dialogue. Unbelievable.
Moments like this proved Bartlett fallible, capable of being wrong. Human, in other words. Most of the time he was a bit too good to be true, this brought him back to reality.
In my opinion this and the end of "Let Bartlet Be Bartlet" are the two best non-Two Cathedral scenes in the history of the show.
I found the ending of let Bartlett be Bartlett a bit funny. Leo gave his “it may cost us the Whitehouse” speech. And then says “let’s get in the game.” How late was it? What could you possibly do at that hour except go home?
How Richard didn’t win an Emmy for this episode/scene is absolutely beyond me
Because he didn't pay for it.
Richard 's a real actor, not a celebrity.
**Emmys are bought.**
@@BeautifulSpirit-kf5ldrubbish. He won for excelsior the year before. Bradley won in season two for Noel.
A really bold and brilliant scene. Toby is acting as the symbol of Jed’s relentless conscience that won’t let him bluster away the truth. As an ethical man, Jed has felt guilty about concealing his health from the start but like many powerful people, he tried to convince himself it was ok because of a “higher calling.” Toby is voicing to Jed exactly what he has been trying to suppress and his reaction to it is rage and arrogance. It’s fascinating through the whole MS revelation that the Bartlett’s refuse to acknowledge the degree to which they were wrong and their staff and White House counsel has to make them realize otherwise.
Sorkin and the team are geniuses. This scene covers so many different issues. The acting is outstanding. Nobody in such a situation is going to behave well. Toby looks like a righteous ass ( whilst holding the moral, legal and ethical high ground), Leo is torn between understanding Toby but being loyal to the President, Bartlett knows he’s wrong and that’s why he has no come-back that works on any level but ‘I’m fine thank you by the way’..... Totally believable.
"For 90 minutes that night, there was a coup d'etat in this country." That's the line you edit out of the email once you take a breather. Toby knows he went one step too far with that. Incredible scene - writing, acting, everything. My oh my.
No. Jed is in the wrong and Toby nails it, and Leo knows it. Three great performances.
@@lizziebkennedy7505 Three incredible performances! Jed is in the wrong for sure, but I think Toby also knows that he could have made his point without that last line, which is why his body seems to shrink and his eyes quicken.
He isn't wrong. For 90 minutes Leo, an unelected official, was de facto president. That is ONLY the result of Bartlett wanting to hide his MS. His irresponsible self interest puts 300 million people at risk and Toby is the bad guy for calling it out? Fuck that.
@@lizziebkennedy7505 his regret is revealed at a later episode after Josh asks him how he took the news. Toby said, "I went ballistic at him. In the Oval Office."
Respectfully, this analysis is off the mark. What business does Toby have to suppress himself? You think he is afraid to jeopardize his professional relationship by losing his temper? No... those are not the stakes within this context...
At best, He is telling truth to power, while trying to find the "voice" that fits the scenario - as he distills precisely what the history books would contain, despite his disbelief.
First consider Toby as the appointed storyteller for the affairs of the highest office in the land. His role is to communicate the message - he is the Herald, Apollo, etc.
So here he is performing his duty to the country by narrating the events so as to elucidate the truth and provide a reflection , as a senior advisor. The outrageous story that will be observed by the masses, and that if brought to light, will have the potential to disrupt the entire presidency any and everything they have worked for so far.
Toby is saying what needs to be said - because covering it up for a second longer is the exact nature of this scandal - and in this moment in his bewilderment Toby must question all of Bartlet's decision making up to this point to wrap his brain around these shocking new details. To Toby, a citizen himself, he is expressing his outrage that his leader could be so irresponsible.
These people are the best actors and The West Wing was the best drama of TV history. I'm still waiting for another season.
“I know, I can’t believe we’re all still here”
“Refer to my wife as Mrs. Bartlet or the First Lady”
“A drug induced haze”
“I don’t think I got shot because I had MS”
“And the walls came tumbling down”
“I’m fine by the way, thanks for asking”
“Toby’s concern for my health …”
“Shut up !”
I don’t hear any rebuttals to Toby’s arguments aside from “[insert character’s name or position here] was there” … as if those people can disobey the President, or the Bartlet being sarcastic to deflect blame, or simply pulling rank.
Bottom line: he knows he’s wrong, and it’s killing him, and Toby is in his face about it, and Bartel can’t defend himself.
I always loved that President Bartlet was well aware Toby could more or less take him in an argument at any time. It made for great scenes
@@Trig242 i think Toby thought he could, which of course led to the progression and downfall of his character. I think Bartlet had the edge, but not in this case, because he knoew that he was wrong.
Richard Schiff should have won the Emmy for Best Supporting Actor for season 2, too for this scene.
Incredible moment in time for the show when Leo says "Sir" to the president in defense of Toby. There are many times when he cut short one of the staff just by saying their name, but this time it's the president.
I can't think of another show on television with better talented actors, well-written scripts and well-directed scenes than The West Wing. It is episodes like this one, specifically, that made this show so epic and large.
Im with Toby here, important measures werent taken cuse Bartlet wanted to keep lying about his medical disease. Being elected on a major lie is bad enough but once someone can find demonstrable proof that it interfered with the most important office in the world, it goes without saying that Toby won this one.
There's no question about it, Bartlet admits it himself in a few years. This is the beginning of a long and excellent character arc of him slowly realizing that just because he is a good man and a good President and undeserving of his illness, it still does not make the deception right.
Help me out, is the problem that Jed should have written a pre-signed letter in anticipation that his MS would debilitate him, clarifying that Hoynes would have power until he recovered?
Brilliant.... Schiff was my fav. on the show (well, aside from Janney), and this is why. He stole every moment, and he could have been an unlikeable character, but instead he was the most lovable of them all, b/c he was so brilliant and passionate. Serious acting chops on top of it. His best moment is this, and season 4, episode "25," when he tells his buds "the babies were born." He was so awkward, yet so excited, and he had tears in his eyes. BRILLIANT, nuanced acting.
To me, the single best scene of the entire series.
I love how every time Bartlett says “yeah” is progressively more irritated before it sounds less like an answer and more like a warning lol
This scene should be called "All the money in my pockets." It's such an incredible line. I've said the phrase many times when suggesting bets with people...nobody has any idea why I say it that way. This is one of the finest moments in all of television.
"Murky at best"
"all the money in my pockets against..."
"and the walls came tumbling down"
I love Aaron Sorkin's writing so much. This is my favorite show, I own every season. I wish Sorking would write again and that he would be given immunity to use whatever he needs to as an aide to write. Brilliant
You’ve gotta be pretty happy with how that turned out. Steve Jobs, Moneyball, and The Social Network. 3 of the most well written movies of their time. I’d say you got your wish and how could you not be pretty happy with how that turned out? 🙂
@@nicholaszeitner2134 Definitely! I am still a huge fan 13 years later and always excited to see Sorkin is working on something new. The Newsroom was another great one. I really wish there was a way for me to see his adaptation of "To Kill a Mockingbird" with Jeff Daniels.
I miss this show a lot..
Jeds got his hands in his pockets at the end. If you know, you know. Also the framing/cinematography in this scene are masterful, as are the script and performances
"For ninety minutes there was a COUP D'ETAT IN THIS COUNTRY."
This scene shows that reasonable, relatively principled people can be corrupted by power and its pursuit. Bartlett always came across as a "straight shooter" with the voters - always having a reputation for complete honesty with the voters. And now, when he believed the illness would have cost him the election, or cost him a future election, he chose to hide the condition. His anger is the result of Toby's righteous indignation. I saw no indication that Toby was mad about being kept out of the loop from the beginning. Bartlett was angry that he had been caught, and was afraid that public disclosure could "ruin" him. It didn't of course, but that's only because the series got renewed.... ;-)
Yeah this story line did show a different side of the President. He even told Leo that he didn't tell him about the MS because he wanted to be President.
***** I think you're absolutely right. I also think it shows that Bartlet really is a human being after all. He made a decision that seemed reasonable at the beginning. He didn't expect to win. One thing lead to another and he got caught. His reaction was spot-on in my opinion.
+Stan Bartsch Bartlet isn't corrupt.
Depends on your definition of "corruption." I was using the word not in the sense of "political corruption," but in the meaning of "1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain."
A lie of omission on a level of that magnitude is definitely still a lie.
***** Excellent breakdown, couldn't agree more! It always surprised me that people didn't get that Bartlet did lie and did something corrupt. Even Leo tried to down play it saying he didn't lie when he clearly did.
There is that moment when President Bartlett realizes, and Leo realizes, they are wrong. Toby is the only one with the intelligence to investigate it at that point, and the fortitude to tell it to them in terms that can not be denied, and in turn, face the wrath of powerful angry men who realize they committed what COULD have been a tragic betrayal of their oath to the people.
Wonderful writing and acting.
God damn, that was well acted.
God Damn this is some fine acting all around. My favourite part and one of the major lines i remember from the entire show (and i've watched every episode at least twice) is "The National Security advisor & the Secretary of State didn't know WHO they were taking their orders from!!. I wasn't in the situation room that night, but i'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that it was Leo, WHO NOONE ELECTED. For 90 minutes that night there was a coup d'etat in this country"
"AND THE WALLS CAME TUMBLING DOWN..." Almost led to spontaneous laughter I felt...
This is more relevant now than ever
This is show is so good, maybe my favourite show of all time.
He was absolutely right to question it. You can't have someone's back if they're knowingly lying to you. They all deserved to know what was going on because they were the ones standing in front of him. How many times did we hear them say "I serve at the pleasure of the President"?
+Monica Adams You get a guy elected to the White House, you serve at his pleasure, you make sure he operates like a professional without going off the deep end and then, you find out about this? You're damn right Toby's got a good reason to question it. They practically committed fraud without knowing it. Toby knew for a fact and the letter not being signed, that was a breach in procedure and succession of power.
@@Legba85 Fraud wasn't really Toby's point; the lack of a signed letter delegating authority, combined with Bartlett being incapacitated, meant that nobody was in clear control. All of those events that Toby cited were things that the President and/or Vice President had the authority to act upon -- if any of them had truly gone off-the-rails, the ambiguity of authority would have left the US unprepared for any kind of prompt response in a time-sensitive crisis situation.
I love the clock in the "background" ticking away.
The greatest thing about Toby is that he isn't here to take anyone's shit. He will go down fighting, and he will go down with his principles. He was the most idealistic character written on the show, and it stayed that way till the end.
Love Toby
I used to love the moments in The West Wing when Toby got angry :).
I love the symbolic way, at the end of his diatribe, Bartlett moves around to put Leo physically between himself and Toby. I suppose one could read all sorts of things into that...
I am a conservative but this show was fantastic. casting couldnt have been better
Stephen Burton you have discernment and critical thinking skills🧐
Tiffany Lyons i bet you think economists are kooks too.
I’m a Conservative too. And I wouldn’t have missed one second of this program. It’s still a favorite. The quality was equaled only by ER.
I disagreed with 90% of what was said in a political vein. But, like Ainsley Hayes, I’d have worked there in a heartbeat.
@@cards0486 that's all its about. Working for people who only want the good for others man
Agree, great series. But Toby is still a jerk.
One of the subtle things I love about these scenes is there are several points where someone says something, the other persons says huh and the other repeats what they said. Bartlett and Toby are so distracted by their own thoughts. It gives such a slight nod to how serious this moment is.
that is exactly why he has the job because he can spread a thought around and make you think
Most of the time if you watch he is in the back of the scene just quietly watching what others say and then chewing on it before say what he has to say
This was Toby at his best, at his strongest. The later Toby, the Toby that leaked important information, not the same guy. He owned this scene
One of many scenes where Jed's fatherly side came out. Toby's face when Jed got angry was definitely the face of a child who crossed the line. One of the best.
The ticking clock in the background is a nice touch.
Youll notice that ticking in many more Oval Office scenes as well 😄
I have MS and you do not get stupid when an episode occurs, just slow down. But, I become more perceptive as a measure of compensation! I adores this show and miss it very much!
Ricki Becker i
I now watch it on Netflicks
I too remember seeing this scene, I was about your age (I was fresh out of college), and saying the same thing! It was scary! IT WAS INTENSE! It was THE BEST SHOW ON TV!
"i can't believe we are all still here" -"and the walls came tumbling down"- sarcasm at its best...
" I'm fine by the way, thanks for asking" --it goes to show that although he's angry, and questions Toby's motives- "are u annoyed that there were 15 people ahead of you" his conscience is telling him that Toby is right...and it pains him to admit it
its minor but that usage of the clock was genius. this episode, season and show was the best!
The ticking clock in the background is the perfect metronome for this scene.
Toby was 100% right here. I always kind of wished that CJ had been there as well. She would have been able to show Bartlett more of what Toby was trying to convey.
Toby was hurt and it wasn't him as an advisor or him as a campaign strategist it was him as an American voter who believed in Bartlett and was let down. It's one of those rare moments on the show when Bartlett was dead wrong and one of the even fewer moments when I disliked him for yelling at Toby. I would have been mad as hell too.
He lied to Toby. I honestly don't think it was Toby being upset that the President didn't tell him first but was definitely about the lie. For a second there Bartlett was just like all the other politicians and it's heartbreaking.
“And the walls came tumbling down.”
Every president needs someone like Toby who is willing to tell him things he doesn't want to hear. "Group Think" is a dangerous thing and leads to all sorts of bad decisions and disasters.
This is such a powerful scene. That is a crappy outburst by Pres. Bartlett.
+Noah Levine Yeah, he was acting immaturely. Though the seeds had been planted earlier, this was really the beginning of the MS arc, which culminated with Bartlett fully accepting responsibility for his actions and accepting Congressional censure to protect Leo in the next season. At this point, he was still trying to convince himself that, having avoided actually breaking the law in any technical sense, he hadn't done anything wrong.
To his credit, he did apologize to Toby later in this episode.
+Jayanth Kumar In later episodes Bartlet flat out admits "I screwed up, I was wrong, and I've been covering my ass this whole time" & I think this scene is part of the 'Bartlet won't admit wrongdoing' storyarc.
@JuiceIsLoose22
The best line of the scene...It was 17 people by the way. You. you knew". GENIUS.
Leo always knew when to talk and when to let the situation resolve itself. Leo was a cool badass.
So well written AND acted. To find the one you put on the pedestal, the one to whom you viewed the history of the nation was most precious, violated the fundamental base of the nation, the freedom from tyranny. It doesn't matter that it wasn't done with malice, what matters is the man at the top at that moment was not granted those powers by the people, and that is unforgivable. Even though I don't think that thought crossed their minds at the time.
Exactly 👏🏻👏🏻 it doesnt matter if it was for 45 minutes or 45 seconds. Be it a hairline fracture or "the walls coming tumbling down" it is still the act of recklessly surrendering of the entire system that protects our freedoms
My favourite scene in 7years of an entire series of favourite scenes
The best scene for me in WW--ever.
Everyone in this scene is perfect- Richard Schiff is always the one to bring the unpopular items up in the oval.
I don't agree with his views on politics most of the time, but I would hire Toby Ziegler to work for me any day of the week. You have to be born with passion like that. And to take a (correct) stand like that, in that room, takes a major set of big brass cajones.
This scene always gives me goosebumps. Incredible. Love this.
That's right, throw a tantrum!! Sound pissy all you want! In the end they both knew Toby was right.
This and the Steve Jobs John Sculley fight are two great pieces of writing.
Yet another example why this was the best television ever broadcast.
@fidelio1980 Right on all points. Toby didn't have time for niceties, he was concerned that the leader of the country was compromised and had been during a time of crisis. As the communications director, he knew it would be a PR nightmare at best if word got out without a gameplan on how to handle it, not to mention his own concerns and the fact that his confidence in the leadership just got rocked. It wasn't that he felt left out, it was that his trust in Jed and Leo had been betrayed.
Three great actors in this scene, but John Spencer may have had the best acting in his scene.
His face and body language throughout this scene spoke volumes… he didn’t even have to speak, his physical reactions said everything.
One of the best moments in television's history
We are rapidly approaching a moment from which everyone is gonna be able to blame me for everything.
I can't wait
I hope Alison was hinting at a reboot of The West Wing this last week in her interview. I miss the hell out of this show!
what interview was that?
It was an interview that was recent with Janney. I saw it on fb..I'd google to learn more. :)
The dreamer in me hopes every White House has someone who feels comfortable being Toby at that moment when such a thing arises. Only one is needed, though.
These were the situations where Toby was like, I'm right, but I don't want to be...
This is the definition of GREAT TELEVISION!
Toby loves saying "Coup d'état"
The show pretends Bartlett was right but he wasn't, Toby was.
Beauty of this scene is how Richard Schiff plays this. He knows Toby has to go through with this line of questioning but he doesn't want to in a sense. He feels someone has to step up for the process and the letter of the law, and tragically he has to do it, personal feelings be damned.
The writing is, of course, exemplary. But it's only words on a page until an actor like Schiff brings the meaning out. This should be required course study for any would be actor.
@Derekivery It was explained in the series that their needed to be a letter because the 25th no long made it clear who would assume command under the situtation that the president was neither dead nor stepped down. When Bartlet was shot, he was still alive and hadn't relequished command to the VP, thus Leo McGary ruled the USA for about 90 minutes.
I really love this scene so much
Toby was always thinking about things from the POV of Bartlets Presidency and implications of his MS.
I have heard others express this but, this is why Toby as the leak didn't make sense. This Toby would have never in a million years betrayed Jed Bartlett.
though each and every character in this series is righteous, Toby is a man of wisest intellect and possesses a rare ability to speak his mind without looking at any possible outcome when he knows he is right. Personally speaking i would have preferred to see him as the Chief of Staff in place CJ!!!!
i love the "all the money in my pocket" speech by toby
I still use that line with friends haha
What episode
But you forget the scene between Leo and Ainsley where he tells her "the President likes smart people who disagree with him". He doesn't want yes-men around him and he won't fire people for presenting a valid argument they believe in.
Top 3 scene from the show
I think the only person who's indignation is so covered in crap in this scene was Bartlett. He knows the severity of what happened and what is happening and he is just frustrated with it. Toby represents the "everyman" in this show and this is how, at least initially, without any real forethought and some minor information, how they would react.
You know, people who didn’t like this show (yes, they DO exist) would say-“ it’s too preachy”, “it doesn’t work like that in real politics” or “it’s over-the-top dramatics” etc...
But they never accepted it as just great damn entertainment, period.
Those people never allowed themselves to just enjoy it!
3:37 - Leo's reaction: "Jesus...he's right. We conducted a coup."
@Hilius8 "Incapacited" did not include voluntary anesthesia, and thus the President would have to relinquish power via a written letter. Now, had Bartlet fainted or died from the bullet wound, the Speaker of the House would declare him incapacitated, and promoted the VP on his behalf. But because Bartlet was fully conscious when he went under, and didn't formerly relinquish his authority, no clear transfer of power took place.
Just my interpretation, though.
We need The West Wing back!
WW was TV gold at it's highest level. I'm a lifelong Conservative and I can tell you that if Washington DC reflected the Democrats portrayed in WW they would be absolutely unbeatable.
Toby should have responded to Jeb “I am feeling fine - thanks for asking!“. Well if you were under an attack now do we need to defer to Leo!!