I'm so glad the writers decided to make Vinick a real character instead of a caricature. It really allowed The West Wing to have one last great season.
Instead of a caricature? He's an atheist, pro-sustainables, pro-woman Republican who refuses to buy off midwest whites with subsidies, and recognizes that he can't have his tax cut while still taking care of actual soldiers. He couldn't be more a caricature if he'd been presented on screen as a literal hand drawn unicorn. This guy and Speaker Walken and Ainsley Hayes all *ridiculous* characters.
@@jimelton650 He's right though. I can't think of any prominent Republicans that are in the headlines today that even remotely resemble Vinnick. He stays true to Republican ideals while being a good man.
Something I liked about seasons 6 and 7 was how they highlighted how both Santos and Vinnick were intelligent, honorable, likable, human characters with good principles and values so that regardless of who won you could be sure the country would likely be in good hands, definitely the best of the post sorkin seasons
It was beautifully set up for both outcomes. I think the viewers could have accepted a Vinnick presidency. Heck, I am betting there are some here that wanted that more than a Santos presidency.
@@NardoVogt-oo6gz You think that maybe some people in America wanted the Republican character to win the presidency more than the Democrat? Lol thanks for that astonishing insight
@@dz_caThat's a bit "jumping to the conclusion". Not all viewers of the show are American - in fact, I wasn't actually referring to "democrat" vs "republican" but rather to "antagonist" vs "protagonist". So a simple story building topic. The story writer created an antagonist that people liked. Harder to pull off in general than the "regular" way.
@@dz_ca I would argue it's ESPECIALLY hard when you are talking about politics because neither your protagonist nor your antagonist are inherently evil or good. It's not fantasy, it's basically real life. They are also both human beings with human emotions that relate to someone. They have both vices and positive traits. The hard part is: If you make your antagonist too likeable, you can change the position of your characters. Can be cool (See Ted Lasso with the Jamy Tardd Nate the great switch in Season 2) but it needs to be intentional. And even then it can backfire. In this case, the trick was to keep Vinnick as antagonist, without switching it over to protagonist but still making him an agreeable alternative to Santos. Much of that heavy lifting there needed to be done by the characters in the election teams of both candidates. That's why Josh had so many "morally" questionable acts in that season. He needed to be "bad" so Santos can remain good while creating tension Vinnick can be positively bounced off. And without making Josh the Antagonist in the process. Sure, you can call it easy - you can even try to tell me I don't understand stuff. But there is a reason why we see so few positive antagonists even in political dramas in comparison. Heck, West Wings election prior to Santos painted Richie in a very bad antagonistic way. Heartless, kind of dumb ... basically a punching bag for Bartlett. So even the same show didn't do it all the time.
There was no ice cream on the set. It would melt and make editing different takes difficult. Prop ice cream is very often instant mashed potatoes. Notice that neither of them actually eat even a taste.
Two of the greatest actors of our time, Sheen and Alda - face to face with a brilliant script. This is why The West Wing was (and is ) the greatest show ever made for TV - I do miss it!
It's a shame this is one of the few times Alda and Sheen are face to face in these roles. I can never tell if I love this scene just because of that or if it's also a pretty great conversation :) Try the pistachio.
I love this exchange between them. They are on opposite sides of the aisle and they are human enough to have a civil conversation and be honest enough in their responses. Especially as Vinick didn't seem to care that Bartlett had MS, at least privately.
I know that today, the vitrol on both sides are filled with poison pills. Maybe by the grace of god or lack thereof, we can somehow come together again?
Why it works so well is both actors are actively listening. That reflective pause by Sheen before he presses Vinick ... why'd ja stop. Marvellous acting.
Bush (either) couldn't have done this with Clinton. Reagan couldn't have carried on like this. Vinick was a character all his own and so was Bartlet, unfortunately you're longing for a time that's fictional, but I long for it too, so I understand.
@@erinjean6936 Actually both W. And HW. did. As a matter of fact, Clinton and HW, became best of friends while championing several causes around the world.
The West Wing was a great show. There were a handful of scenes throughout that stood way above the rest and I always remembered them. This was one of those scenes.
i know others have said this - but these are two of the finest actors that America has ever produced, and to have them holding opposing views and being respectful and strong is something we need more of on TV
@@PeterAden I still miss this show. I miss superb acting and great scripts where people can actually learn something from watching an episode. I learned so much about politics that I didn't know before watching the West Wing.
So awesome to contrast this debate between two learned thinkers who happen to be on different sides of the political fence with the scene where Bartlett talks to Gov.Ritchie at the opera. "...in case you were wondering, 'crime, gee, I dunno' is when I decided to kick your ass..".
Completely agree.... it’s intellect on a whole higher level when each of these guys is more than capable of presenting both sides of either argument and not hold the other person’s position [the one they choose to take] against them; their larger disdain is for the person who makes a complaint, but doesn’t actually bother to understand the concepts they are complaining about...
That's not the comparison I'd make because the earlier conversation you refer to was quite civil until the closing line.. Comparisons between the Vinick and the current republican leader; now that is something else
@@ChrisInTheNorth civil yes, but there was a clear disdain and lack of respect between Bartlett & Ritchie. But Vinick was always written as a good guy. He was originally supposed to win, not Santos. Ritchie was an anti-intellectual. He was clearly a criticism of Bush and the results of the right-wing media bubble. Vinick was more "here's what you could be".
The brilliant Alan Alda gave gravitas to the character of Arnie Vinick. He stole every scene he was in and was a perfect casting, as was Jimmy Smits. Santos had the sense to appoint the best person for Secretary of State he could find. Arnie Vinick was the obvious choice.
@@avae5343 Not true. Clinton had a republican secretary of defense. Obama a republican secretary of commerce. Even Trump appointed some democrats onto the courts.
@@rap31264 Yeah, but they've been dipping their spoons in all those jars-i know its the White House but he is in the canteen where everyone else eats. I wouldnt want to eat something thats been double-dipped, Bartett or not.
@@Ryan-jc3ip Exactly that. Same when SG1 was on the Prometheus and the Asgard apparently had no concept of refrigeration. And we also learned Teal'c really, really loves Ben & Jerry's.
He should have, no disrespect to Jimmy smiths, but no way a congressman, dark horse or not, wins a primary, let alone an election, against two vice presidents, a senator and a governor of a state like PA.
Alan Alda - Truly one of the greatest actors and human beings! What a pleasure and privilege it's been to get him to watch him in The West Wing and other amazing works!
@@michaeloconnor5904 And you should consider that when W's first term started, the Dems nearly instantly went on the attack, pretty much the same as they did when Trump's term started in 2017. Let's also not forget how the majority (I think) of GOP nominees to the SCOTUS have been treated during their confirmation hearings. In the past, if a nominee was clearly qualified, they didn't get dragged through hot coals just because their beliefs differed from the opposing party. It was normal for SCOTUS nominees to be confirmed with 90+ votes in favor, whether they were conservative or liberal. Now, if the nominee doesn't agree with the other party, they'll try to roast him/her over the coals, try to filibuster him/her, and turn it into a straight up partisan vote.
Joe, this may sound harsh, but I don't care about caring politicians. Pols who define themselves by how much they "care" will be willing to double down on failure and refuse to accept that certain policies just don't work. Or you'll have someone like Obama who wanted to raise taxes on the rich, even in the face of indisputable that doing so would NOT raise more revenue. He only cared about putting the screws to the rich. The fact is that taxation should be about one thing and one thing only... raising revenue to fund the government. And if raising taxes on the rich doesn't increase revenues, then it's a stupid idea. What I want are politicians who care about getting things done, not on caring about how much they "care". "Caring" doesn't accomplish anything.
@@crucisnh I mean, my comment was about how Bush 43 wasn't exactly a genius and his VP was quite literally heartless. But if you'd like to talk qualified judges, am I unaware of something one Merrick Garland did that made him unfit for the post? Also, before you answer, you should know that my thoughts on the matter are that both your parties are two sides of the same hack partisan coin.
As to this point, I'm going to interpret on Joe's behalf and he should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say his meaning for caring is twofold: caring about doing the job for their constituents and not being a jackass. Failure of either of these is unbecoming of the office.
With all the political polarisation we now have it is so utterly refreshing to see a dramatisation of 2 intelligent men from opposite sides of the political spectrum having a genuine conversation.
These two scenes (the one prior to this one where Vinick tells Barlot the deal but wants to stay longer) is probabaly my favorite of all the seasons of this show... these two were so good.
I loved this show. Excellent dialogue, a superb ensemble cast and some of the best debates I have ever witnessed. I know it is fiction but I remember watching television and seeing Gore Vidal and William Buckley debate. Oh, they would both get so angry with each other, but I admired them both immensely. They made me think! They both deeply cared about the U.S. and were very well informed on issues. Now, we have sound bites and whole bunch of nonsense.
@@johnmcgowan2348 I have also admired Noam Chomsky for a very long time, and he has his critics, too. I just really liked the idea that there is a history of people debating politics where they actually know our history. I call "short term thinking" the American disease. Few people read past the fourth paragraph. We've fallen into a time of "sounds bites" and bias and hyperbole. I am so tired of it.
@Andrew Lyall Sadly, at that time being homophobic was just fine. I am certainly not saying that Gore or Buckley were saints, however, they studied US and world history and were well-informed and very much on opposite sides on many issues.
The art of debating has been led into extinction by progressives and the radical left with the help of fuckta.rds from big tech. May they all burn in Hell.
The benefit of the final season was that Santos and Vinick weren’t unlikable characters. It was like watching an actual election. Respect for both candidates and their arguments. The writers were very smart when making this season.
@@mountaineergirl255 It would. It really would. Obama v McCain - on those two people's own merits alone, without all the extra crap thrown into the mix - could have been a truly glorious contest. No matter which of the two had won.
If what I heard is true, they had actually not decided on who would have won the vote and only really decided shortly after John Spencer had died. They assumed there would be a last-minute sympathy boost for Santos. No idea if it was true, but if it is, they had left themselves with the benefit of giving it to the GOP, they allowed the show to have any winner and not guaranteed a Santos win. I definitely like what they did with Vinick making him Secretary of State. They don't agree on a lot, but they do on foreign policy and can work together on that.
@@ScorpiusZA. They found it too cruel for Santos to lose his running mate and the election. It was definitely on their part to let Santos to win, and give Vinick a cabinet position.
What happened to America that made candidates like this only possible in fiction? It breaks my heart to see how far the USA has fallen from its ideals.
I'm not sure that American politics/campaigns have ever been like what we see in TWW, particularly in the Vinnick/Santos campaign. Mind you, I happen to think that Trump, for all of his faults, is one of the most honest presidents we've had in memory. And one big reason I think that is because he's already very rich. He doesn't need sleezy, corrupt deals to line his pockets to make him wealthy we he leaves office. That said, I don't particularly think that this (candidates for higher office being independently very wealthy) is a good precedent, because we end up with candidates and office holders who can easily be out of touch with the American public. And while I don't think that it's entirely fair for the press to be asking gotcha questions like what's the price of milk, I do think that not being out of touch with your constituents is important. I remember how back in 2004 Senator John Kerry from Massachusetts (while running for president) literally did not know the names of two of the Boston Red Sox' most famous players in the year when the Sox were going to finally break their 86 year world series drought. It was thoroughly embarrassing to be that out of touch with what was going on in the state he represented as a Senator.
@@TigDegner That's because Wikipedia is a biased website. He could state incontrovertible facts and libs would claim that he was making them all up and even refuse to report on them.
@BBB H "We don't serve your kind here!" The Democrat, black, says: "Racist!" The Republican says: "Communist!" The Libertarian says: "I'll see myself out."
Such a powerful scene. Not just because of the actors, but because of what is happening. Two of the more powerful voices in the world, and they are just chatting about various views on life, politics; all of the while just munching on desert. That's what makes it so much better, that it's relatable. It's not some huge world meeting, or a military briefing or anything, just two guys, chatting while enjoying ice cream. Simple scenes like this are something that I think modern writers have forgotten in this day and age.
I learned so much about politics and character from the West Wing. I think that today in our entertainment more than jokes, chase scenes, and murders, crime scenes and surgeries in operating rooms, we need education on important issues of our day through the TV programs and movies we watch. The West Wing does that in many subtle and direct ways, just like this clip. Church/state, church/politics, slavery, lying by omission, not taking the Bible literally, etc.
I'm glad they fleshed out Vinick's character. Even though he was on the opposing side, he had honor and respect. I wouldn't have minded if he became the next president.
I love that Vinnick seems to be cornering Bartlett on the MS disclosure, then when Bartlett calls it a mistake, Vinnick makes the argument in defense of not disclosing the issue. Then the discussion gets tense around churchgoing and Vinnick again diffuses it by talking about his own experience of doubt and Bartlett shows the magnanimity to inquire with curiosity and humanity. Imagine if we had news presenters and public officials capable of this kind of exchange!
Oh, the dialogs in this series.. how I miss them. Even though Aaron Sorkin was not there from season 4 and on, they kept up the awesome quality. Best political series, maybe even best series period, IMHO, with The Newsroom in a close second.
Yes, I can agree with you .... but it needs to be recognized and said that Sorkin falls too easily for bedroom politics and religiosity. Which is the primary reason *_The Newsroom_* lasted only 3 seasons .... and why *_The West Wing_* kept promoting what is essentially *_religious privilege_*
These two men are masters of the acting craft in my humble opinion. I grew up watching them and learning from them and the actors of their tales. I pray there will be more giants these next few years.
I enjoy how the writers used the ice cream as a metaphor for showing the difference between these two men .Bartlet a man that takes from many different sources to come to a decision..Vinick just scooping from the Vanilla, until Bartlet says try the Pistachio, as if that's the answer to the religious question.. Don't take it literally and try something new.
I think part of the reason this show hits so hard and has so many incredible moments that everyone gravitates to is that the people in this show depict what we all want our government and elected officials to be. They're all human, and they all have their faults. They're all loyal to their party lines, but in this show, most of the characters from both sides of the aisle are decent to each other, give and take, and show that they are mostly good people, if not great ones. The rare characters show their ugly faces in here, every once in a while, showing the nasty side of politics and corruption, yet they're almost always made to look like fools and the exception to how everyone else conducts business. Unfortunately, in today's world, those are the 99.9% that actually are politicians with their childish political hacking. This show makes us all wish that someday the adults will be back in charge, and we'd have a government (not just a country) that we could be proud of.
I had stopped watching the show by this point. I'm re-watching from the beginning and am part way through season 2. This scene was really well done, so it's motivated me to watch all the way....
A small scene full of character development for both roles. I loved Alda in this role, one of the few serious ones I have ever seen him in. Ice cream in the White House kitchen with the President. Two men building a relationship in such a benign way.
Fun fact about Sorkin's writings: Watch BOTH, *_The American President_* and *_The West Wing_* -- first 4 seasons. You will find the very same (quite literally) dialogue in both. And the characters in both are quite similar as well.
The fact that they wrote Vinick as an atheist, or at least a skeptic, really spoke to me. A conservative who is not religious is usually considered a contradiction in terms, so showing that really meant something. If anyone tells you that you can’t be an atheist or agnostic and vote Republican, they’re wrong.
Alan Alda always played a memorable character.. from Hawkeye to Vinick. Plus his episodes on ER as dr Lawrence . His character I think had been a doctor in Korea. He was dr weavers mentor but was getting dementia/ Alzheimer’s and forgetfulness.
I'm so glad the writers decided to make Vinick a real character instead of a caricature. It really allowed The West Wing to have one last great season.
Instead of a caricature? He's an atheist, pro-sustainables, pro-woman Republican who refuses to buy off midwest whites with subsidies, and recognizes that he can't have his tax cut while still taking care of actual soldiers. He couldn't be more a caricature if he'd been presented on screen as a literal hand drawn unicorn. This guy and Speaker Walken and Ainsley Hayes all *ridiculous* characters.
@@FrelanceEQ You need a flashlight because it must be hard to see with your head up your ass
@@jimelton650 He's right though. I can't think of any prominent Republicans that are in the headlines today that even remotely resemble Vinnick. He stays true to Republican ideals while being a good man.
He's the Democrat's ideal of the perfect Republican. Socially moderate to left, religiously neutral, and he lost
@@matthewgabbard6415 You mean what Republicans SHOULD be?
Something I liked about seasons 6 and 7 was how they highlighted how both Santos and Vinnick were intelligent, honorable, likable, human characters with good principles and values so that regardless of who won you could be sure the country would likely be in good hands, definitely the best of the post sorkin seasons
It was beautifully set up for both outcomes. I think the viewers could have accepted a Vinnick presidency. Heck, I am betting there are some here that wanted that more than a Santos presidency.
@@NardoVogt-oo6gz You think that maybe some people in America wanted the Republican character to win the presidency more than the Democrat? Lol thanks for that astonishing insight
@@dz_caThat's a bit "jumping to the conclusion". Not all viewers of the show are American - in fact, I wasn't actually referring to "democrat" vs "republican" but rather to "antagonist" vs "protagonist". So a simple story building topic.
The story writer created an antagonist that people liked. Harder to pull off in general than the "regular" way.
@@NardoVogt-oo6gz Not hard when you are talking about politics, I guess that's the part you're not understanding
@@dz_ca I would argue it's ESPECIALLY hard when you are talking about politics because neither your protagonist nor your antagonist are inherently evil or good. It's not fantasy, it's basically real life. They are also both human beings with human emotions that relate to someone. They have both vices and positive traits. The hard part is: If you make your antagonist too likeable, you can change the position of your characters. Can be cool (See Ted Lasso with the Jamy Tardd Nate the great switch in Season 2) but it needs to be intentional. And even then it can backfire. In this case, the trick was to keep Vinnick as antagonist, without switching it over to protagonist but still making him an agreeable alternative to Santos.
Much of that heavy lifting there needed to be done by the characters in the election teams of both candidates. That's why Josh had so many "morally" questionable acts in that season. He needed to be "bad" so Santos can remain good while creating tension Vinnick can be positively bounced off. And without making Josh the Antagonist in the process.
Sure, you can call it easy - you can even try to tell me I don't understand stuff.
But there is a reason why we see so few positive antagonists even in political dramas in comparison. Heck, West Wings election prior to Santos painted Richie in a very bad antagonistic way. Heartless, kind of dumb ... basically a punching bag for Bartlett. So even the same show didn't do it all the time.
Whenever I see tubs of ice cream like that, I half expect someone to say "We spared no expense!"
tell me about it. literally anytime i see tubs of icecream. lol
There was no ice cream on the set. It would melt and make editing different takes difficult. Prop ice cream is very often instant mashed potatoes. Notice that neither of them actually eat even a taste.
Two of the greatest actors of our time, Sheen and Alda - face to face with a brilliant script. This is why The West Wing was (and is ) the greatest show ever made for TV - I do miss it!
Amen!! M.A.S.H and The West Wing. Talk about great writing and incredible acting!!
@@kbaer3038 I think that too
It's a shame this is one of the few times Alda and Sheen are face to face in these roles. I can never tell if I love this scene just because of that or if it's also a pretty great conversation :)
Try the pistachio.
Since when alan alda considered greatest actor of our time😅🤣. Hes one of the biggest Hams👍
They were amazing, but the camera work and music were so horrible I have a hard time sitting through them. :(
I love this exchange between them. They are on opposite sides of the aisle and they are human enough to have a civil conversation and be honest enough in their responses. Especially as Vinick didn't seem to care that Bartlett had MS, at least privately.
It's a fare cry from US politics of late.
I know that today, the vitrol on both sides are filled with poison pills. Maybe by the grace of god or lack thereof, we can somehow come together again?
If only people with opposing opinions could do that today.
Honest discourse is a lost art.
"Try the pistachio" - A nice reminder that even in disagreement Bartlett can't help but like the guy.
Might've been a nod to Alan Alda's character Hawkeye in MASH. Hawkeye liked pistachio icecream.
@@paultaylor3912 Ha, that's cool.
I loved how Bartlett said that the hardest part of being President was knowing that the ice cream stash was there, 24/7.
Why it works so well is both actors are actively listening. That reflective pause by Sheen before he presses Vinick ... why'd ja stop. Marvellous acting.
Two great actors, giving dignity to their roles, making us long for a time.....
I really can't imagine Biden and McConnell doing this in 2021! =P
@@michaelk151 - I can’t imagine Trump doing this with ANYONE, ever.
Well said.
Bush (either) couldn't have done this with Clinton. Reagan couldn't have carried on like this. Vinick was a character all his own and so was Bartlet, unfortunately you're longing for a time that's fictional, but I long for it too, so I understand.
@@erinjean6936 Actually both W. And HW. did. As a matter of fact, Clinton and HW, became best of friends while championing several causes around the world.
I like the moment when Vinick mentions book collecting and you can see a twinkle in Bartlett's eye.
Yea I'm sure the Director said hey Martin don't forget the Twinkle thing we discussed
The West Wing was a great show. There were a handful of scenes throughout that stood way above the rest and I always remembered them. This was one of those scenes.
i know others have said this - but these are two of the finest actors that America has ever produced, and to have them holding opposing views and being respectful and strong is something we need more of on TV
I could listen to this conversation for hours.
Alan Alda and the writers really brought depth to the Vinick character. I would have gladly vote for him.
Two of my all time favorite actors, outstanding in their craft.
☝🏼💯
Agreed. I've really come to appreciate how good of an actor Alan Alda is and seeing him here with Martin Sheen is a match made in heaven.
@@PeterAden I still miss this show. I miss superb acting and great scripts where people can actually learn something from watching an episode. I learned so much about politics that I didn't know before watching the West Wing.
So awesome to contrast this debate between two learned thinkers who happen to be on different sides of the political fence with the scene where Bartlett talks to Gov.Ritchie at the opera. "...in case you were wondering, 'crime, gee, I dunno' is when I decided to kick your ass..".
Completely agree.... it’s intellect on a whole higher level when each of these guys is more than capable of presenting both sides of either argument and not hold the other person’s position [the one they choose to take] against them; their larger disdain is for the person who makes a complaint, but doesn’t actually bother to understand the concepts they are complaining about...
That's not the comparison I'd make because the earlier conversation you refer to was quite civil until the closing line.. Comparisons between the Vinick and the current republican leader; now that is something else
@@ChrisInTheNorth civil yes, but there was a clear disdain and lack of respect between Bartlett & Ritchie. But Vinick was always written as a good guy. He was originally supposed to win, not Santos. Ritchie was an anti-intellectual. He was clearly a criticism of Bush and the results of the right-wing media bubble. Vinick was more "here's what you could be".
This was the man Bartlett wanted to run against
Or compare it with the 1st debate between a learned, intelligent person and a yellow haired bag of cocaine.
This is why President Santos picked Vinick to be Secretary of State.
because he liked ice-cream?
@@upthebracket26
Analytical responses to questions.
The brilliant Alan Alda gave gravitas to the character of Arnie Vinick. He stole every scene he was in and was a perfect casting, as was Jimmy Smits. Santos had the sense to appoint the best person for Secretary of State he could find. Arnie Vinick was the obvious choice.
And Obama picked Hilary Clinton as his Secy. of State after a tense general election. I wonder if he got his idea from this
@@avae5343 Not true. Clinton had a republican secretary of defense. Obama a republican secretary of commerce. Even Trump appointed some democrats onto the courts.
A beautifully understated scene, it doesn't tell us what to think about these guysm it shows us who they are
Love the dialogue, but I can only look at all that ice cream they're wasting ...
How are they wasting it? It'll re-freeze...
@@rap31264 Yeah, all icy.
@@rap31264 Yeah, but they've been dipping their spoons in all those jars-i know its the White House but he is in the canteen where everyone else eats. I wouldnt want to eat something thats been double-dipped, Bartett or not.
I'm pretty sure the context of the scene is that the refrigerators are failing already and the ice cream was going to spoil anyway?
@@Ryan-jc3ip Exactly that. Same when SG1 was on the Prometheus and the Asgard apparently had no concept of refrigeration. And we also learned Teal'c really, really loves Ben & Jerry's.
There's probably a dozen West Wing scenes from his many episodes that bring tears to my eyes. This one is a big one.
If arnold vinick had won on the show I would've been perfectly happy.
He was supposed to. But then John Spencer died, so they changed the ending to make it a victory for his character.
that's because the show exists in a fantasy land where there isn't much difference between the two parties
He should have, no disrespect to Jimmy smiths, but no way a congressman, dark horse or not, wins a primary, let alone an election, against two vice presidents, a senator and a governor of a state like PA.
@@chrisahearn789 Lincoln did.
@@paulwagner688 over 100 years ago
two giants, plain and simple. and the script was even not from Sorkin. but they where absolutely great.
Alan Alda was considered to play Jed Bartlet, that's why he was asked to play Vinick a few years later.
Wow he would have been equally brilliant
One of the best-written and brilliantly acted scenes in television history.
Alan Alda - Truly one of the greatest actors and human beings! What a pleasure and privilege it's been to get him to watch him in The West Wing and other amazing works!
Wow, I had forgotten what adult, caring and intelligent politicians sounded like.
tbf, this show was written and aired during the Bush 43 administration.
@@michaeloconnor5904 And you should consider that when W's first term started, the Dems nearly instantly went on the attack, pretty much the same as they did when Trump's term started in 2017. Let's also not forget how the majority (I think) of GOP nominees to the SCOTUS have been treated during their confirmation hearings. In the past, if a nominee was clearly qualified, they didn't get dragged through hot coals just because their beliefs differed from the opposing party. It was normal for SCOTUS nominees to be confirmed with 90+ votes in favor, whether they were conservative or liberal. Now, if the nominee doesn't agree with the other party, they'll try to roast him/her over the coals, try to filibuster him/her, and turn it into a straight up partisan vote.
Joe, this may sound harsh, but I don't care about caring politicians. Pols who define themselves by how much they "care" will be willing to double down on failure and refuse to accept that certain policies just don't work. Or you'll have someone like Obama who wanted to raise taxes on the rich, even in the face of indisputable that doing so would NOT raise more revenue. He only cared about putting the screws to the rich. The fact is that taxation should be about one thing and one thing only... raising revenue to fund the government. And if raising taxes on the rich doesn't increase revenues, then it's a stupid idea.
What I want are politicians who care about getting things done, not on caring about how much they "care". "Caring" doesn't accomplish anything.
@@crucisnh I mean, my comment was about how Bush 43 wasn't exactly a genius and his VP was quite literally heartless. But if you'd like to talk qualified judges, am I unaware of something one Merrick Garland did that made him unfit for the post? Also, before you answer, you should know that my thoughts on the matter are that both your parties are two sides of the same hack partisan coin.
As to this point, I'm going to interpret on Joe's behalf and he should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say his meaning for caring is twofold: caring about doing the job for their constituents and not being a jackass. Failure of either of these is unbecoming of the office.
Two politicians from opposing parties, who respect each other enough that they can chat while eating ice cream. " Try pistachio."
Yeah, total fiction. The West Wing sure is jerk off material for simps.
Reagan did it with drinks.
@@ictpilot no he didn't.
@@DavidHeffron78 Yes he did. Him and the speaker of the house at the time Tip O'Neal would occasionally sit down and talk over a drink.
In his memoir, Obama talks about having at least civil discussions and mutual respect with republicans. Then the Tea party happened.
This is love: people telling each other the truth and not judging the answers they hear.
With all the political polarisation we now have it is so utterly refreshing to see a dramatisation of 2 intelligent men from opposite sides of the political spectrum having a genuine conversation.
Two of THE greatest actors ❤❤❤❤
Two incredible actors working from the incredible writing that was a hallmark of the show.
One of the greatest exchanges in the shows entire run. And that's saying something.
Two great actors going toe to toe understated but expertly done. I love them both.
These two scenes (the one prior to this one where Vinick tells Barlot the deal but wants to stay longer) is probabaly my favorite of all the seasons of this show... these two were so good.
I loved this show. Excellent dialogue, a superb ensemble cast and some of the best debates I have ever witnessed. I know it is fiction but I remember watching television and seeing Gore Vidal and William Buckley debate. Oh, they would both get so angry with each other, but I admired them both immensely. They made me think! They both deeply cared about the U.S. and were very well informed on issues. Now, we have sound bites and whole bunch of nonsense.
Buckley is a turd. I watched him with Chomsky and every time Chomsky crushed his horseshit assertion he quickly pivoted elsewhere.
@@johnmcgowan2348 I have also admired Noam Chomsky for a very long time, and he has his critics, too. I just really liked the idea that there is a history of people debating politics where they actually know our history. I call "short term thinking" the American disease. Few people read past the fourth paragraph. We've fallen into a time of "sounds bites" and bias and hyperbole. I am so tired of it.
@Andrew Lyall Sadly, at that time being homophobic was just fine. I am certainly not saying that Gore or Buckley were saints, however, they studied US and world history and were well-informed and very much on opposite sides on many issues.
Here's an exercise: Look up the first televised debates of Kennedy and Nixon.
The art of debating has been led into extinction by progressives and the radical left with the help of fuckta.rds from big tech. May they all burn in Hell.
These actors have made me smile so many times. They made me think also.
The benefit of the final season was that Santos and Vinick weren’t unlikable characters. It was like watching an actual election. Respect for both candidates and their arguments. The writers were very smart when making this season.
If this is what actual elections were like then America would be the greatest country in the world.
@@mountaineergirl255 It would. It really would. Obama v McCain - on those two people's own merits alone, without all the extra crap thrown into the mix - could have been a truly glorious contest. No matter which of the two had won.
If what I heard is true, they had actually not decided on who would have won the vote and only really decided shortly after John Spencer had died. They assumed there would be a last-minute sympathy boost for Santos. No idea if it was true, but if it is, they had left themselves with the benefit of giving it to the GOP, they allowed the show to have any winner and not guaranteed a Santos win.
I definitely like what they did with Vinick making him Secretary of State. They don't agree on a lot, but they do on foreign policy and can work together on that.
@@ScorpiusZA. They found it too cruel for Santos to lose his running mate and the election. It was definitely on their part to let Santos to win, and give Vinick a cabinet position.
Yes, whereas Ray Sullivan as not likeable.
Two great actors doing what great actors do - not overplaying the scene. Kudos to them and the writers.
Two legends. Thrill to watch them work.
What happened to America that made candidates like this only possible in fiction? It breaks my heart to see how far the USA has fallen from its ideals.
I'm not sure that American politics/campaigns have ever been like what we see in TWW, particularly in the Vinnick/Santos campaign.
Mind you, I happen to think that Trump, for all of his faults, is one of the most honest presidents we've had in memory. And one big reason I think that is because he's already very rich. He doesn't need sleezy, corrupt deals to line his pockets to make him wealthy we he leaves office. That said, I don't particularly think that this (candidates for higher office being independently very wealthy) is a good precedent, because we end up with candidates and office holders who can easily be out of touch with the American public.
And while I don't think that it's entirely fair for the press to be asking gotcha questions like what's the price of milk, I do think that not being out of touch with your constituents is important. I remember how back in 2004 Senator John Kerry from Massachusetts (while running for president) literally did not know the names of two of the Boston Red Sox' most famous players in the year when the Sox were going to finally break their 86 year world series drought. It was thoroughly embarrassing to be that out of touch with what was going on in the state he represented as a Senator.
The American People no longer seek knowledge but instead believe the 1st headline they see...the west wing was great because it promoted intellect
Lmao this is a laughably delusional post
@@TigDegner That's because Wikipedia is a biased website. He could state incontrovertible facts and libs would claim that he was making them all up and even refuse to report on them.
@@crucisnh "Everyone else is lying. Only my hero tells the truth."
This scene is so powerful. One of my favorite scenes out of the entire show.
two greats who get to play with each other, beautiful to watch
The greatness of this series was the moments like this. Dialogues that talked on subjects from both sides and did not demean either.
“A Democrat and a Republican went out to eat ice cream…”😋
@BBB H "We don't serve your kind here!"
The Democrat, black, says: "Racist!"
The Republican says: "Communist!"
The Libertarian says: "I'll see myself out."
@@sauron7839 found the libertarian
Yes... there is a joke in there somewhere.
@BBB H which one ordered civil liberties on the rocks?
Only in private can it happen.
Such a powerful scene. Not just because of the actors, but because of what is happening. Two of the more powerful voices in the world, and they are just chatting about various views on life, politics; all of the while just munching on desert. That's what makes it so much better, that it's relatable. It's not some huge world meeting, or a military briefing or anything, just two guys, chatting while enjoying ice cream.
Simple scenes like this are something that I think modern writers have forgotten in this day and age.
I love how they eating all the ice cream with their same spoon. Like nobody else is going to eat it lol
Two masters, sparring. Nearing 2 decades on, Vinnick's intellect and reason is like Science Fiction.
Today for sure.
This was such a good show and it was ahead of its time.
I learned so much about politics and character from the West Wing. I think that today in our entertainment more than jokes, chase scenes, and murders, crime scenes and surgeries in operating rooms, we need education on important issues of our day through the TV programs and movies we watch. The West Wing does that in many subtle and direct ways, just like this clip. Church/state, church/politics, slavery, lying by omission, not taking the Bible literally, etc.
Two of the best actors in our lifetime. What a treat!
I'm glad they fleshed out Vinick's character. Even though he was on the opposing side, he had honor and respect. I wouldn't have minded if he became the next president.
I love that Vinnick seems to be cornering Bartlett on the MS disclosure, then when Bartlett calls it a mistake, Vinnick makes the argument in defense of not disclosing the issue. Then the discussion gets tense around churchgoing and Vinnick again diffuses it by talking about his own experience of doubt and Bartlett shows the magnanimity to inquire with curiosity and humanity. Imagine if we had news presenters and public officials capable of this kind of exchange!
Two great men sit down to have a chat......And give us one of the best moments of television. Scripted, yes, but still great television.
Oh, the dialogs in this series.. how I miss them. Even though Aaron Sorkin was not there from season 4 and on, they kept up the awesome quality. Best political series, maybe even best series period, IMHO, with The Newsroom in a close second.
Yes, I can agree with you .... but it needs to be recognized and said that Sorkin falls too easily for bedroom politics and religiosity. Which is the primary reason *_The Newsroom_* lasted only 3 seasons .... and why *_The West Wing_* kept promoting what is essentially *_religious privilege_*
West wing was brilliant. The newsroom was sanctimonious rubbish.
TWW is the most patriotic show I've ever watched. It celebrates the idea of America at its best. Just absolutely beautiful.
The least realistic 😂
And look at what we've become. I'm shocked at the stupidity of the current MAGA crowd. The GOP
needs to reclaim their party.
These two men are masters of the acting craft in my humble opinion. I grew up watching them and learning from them and the actors of their tales. I pray there will be more giants these next few years.
What a joy to see these two characters as human beings. A testament to the skill and talent of these two very fine actors.
I enjoy how the writers used the ice cream as a metaphor for showing the difference between these two men .Bartlet a man that takes from many different sources to come to a decision..Vinick just scooping from the Vanilla, until Bartlet says try the Pistachio, as if that's the answer to the religious question..
Don't take it literally and try something new.
This is a masterclass in acting with two of the greats. When they chose Alan Alda for Vinick they struck gold and elevated THE WW so much
I would love to be a fly on the wall for any conversation like this. I miss polite discourse about things that matter to other people.
Yours are some of the most interesting words I’ve read in years.
Beautiful scene, two terrific actors on top form.
I think part of the reason this show hits so hard and has so many incredible moments that everyone gravitates to is that the people in this show depict what we all want our government and elected officials to be. They're all human, and they all have their faults. They're all loyal to their party lines, but in this show, most of the characters from both sides of the aisle are decent to each other, give and take, and show that they are mostly good people, if not great ones. The rare characters show their ugly faces in here, every once in a while, showing the nasty side of politics and corruption, yet they're almost always made to look like fools and the exception to how everyone else conducts business. Unfortunately, in today's world, those are the 99.9% that actually are politicians with their childish political hacking. This show makes us all wish that someday the adults will be back in charge, and we'd have a government (not just a country) that we could be proud of.
This is an incredible scene with 2 great actors!
West Wing and Mash are my favourite shows.
I love the ideological and moral debates this show brings up
We've been watching the entire series again and its amazing how well it holds up after 20 years-and how most of the issues are still issues today.
Subdued. Subtle. No explosions. No super powers. Just a great script acted out by two immense talents.
Never thought I see Martin Sheen and Alan Alda act together.
This feels like it was from a lifetime ago.
It was.
Vinick played by Alan Alda my favourite actor of all time, lucky to have seen him live in a play.
Two Master Actors, what a pleasure to watch
The West Wing had some of the best writing on Television!
One of my favorite post-Sorkin scenes.
It still blows me out of the water how nice a thing that was for Vinick to say about Bartlet's health issue.
Sheen, Alda and Smits lit up the later episodes
I had stopped watching the show by this point. I'm re-watching from the beginning and am part way through season 2. This scene was really well done, so it's motivated me to watch all the way....
A master class in acting by these two.
A small scene full of character development for both roles. I loved Alda in this role, one of the few serious ones I have ever seen him in. Ice cream in the White House kitchen with the President. Two men building a relationship in such a benign way.
They don't make politicians like this anymore. Two phenomenal characters brought to life by two giant actors.
they never made politicians like this. this could never happen.
What was so wonderful about this series was that it showed that there were good and bad, smart and stupid people on both ends of the spectrum.
@@avae5343 Ainsley Hayes? Cliff Calley? Christopher Mulready? Chandler?!
And let's not forget the acting president at one point, Walken.
Double dipping on the ice cream? Wouldn’t do that these days!
That's the sort of thing to ruin a man's presidential campaign.
2 of the greatest actors workng a scene! Mind blown!!!
The result of combining two masters of their craft with great material is this scene.
I love how the tension bordering on dislike between them doesn’t keep them from communicating like serious men.
They did Toby dirty the last 2 seasons. It became The Josh Show.
Yep
Yeah, and it was planned to be the Sam Seaborne Show.
One of my favorite scenes in the series
Fun fact about Sorkin's writings: Watch BOTH, *_The American President_* and *_The West Wing_* -- first 4 seasons. You will find the very same (quite literally) dialogue in both. And the characters in both are quite similar as well.
Alan Alda ... man, this man is a natural treasure.
What a scene - great actors, writing, the whole shebang. Man I miss this show.
Master class in writing and acting..
Some of the best television ever written.
The fact that they wrote Vinick as an atheist, or at least a skeptic, really spoke to me. A conservative who is not religious is usually considered a contradiction in terms, so showing that really meant something. If anyone tells you that you can’t be an atheist or agnostic and vote Republican, they’re wrong.
It happens, it's just very rare
Nice of them to stick the spoons they put in their mouths in every bucket, nice for everyone eating ice cream at the white house later! 😂
Alan Alda could read a phone book and be nominated for best actor.
"It's not up to us to decide what the voters get to use to evaluate us" is a lesson both major parties could stand to learn.
Alan Alda always played a memorable character.. from Hawkeye to Vinick. Plus his episodes on ER as dr Lawrence . His character I think had been a doctor in Korea. He was dr weavers mentor but was getting dementia/ Alzheimer’s and forgetfulness.
This is the acting equivalent of Ali-Frazier, Manning-Brady, Bird-Magic, or Borg-McEnroe. Two wily veterans at the top of their games.
The next day the white house chefs open the fridge to find all their ice cream tubs have been raided lmao
2 great actors in a scene.
I love this scene I think a president should have a team of rivals in his cabinet to get a real consensus on the issues