The Great Tree of Religion with Simon E Davies (LIVE!)
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Simon Davies and I look at his Great Tree of Religion, which documents over 500 religions and how they are connected. This was a fascinating discussion and the first ever livestream, and you all were amazing. Thankyou!
Simon's RUclips channel is / @mythopia1
I love the focus on Mesoamerica! I too had noticed the Aztecs' dismembered-being motif (Tlaltecuhtli-Cipactli) and have been thinking it must have made it's way across rather than having independently evolved.
If possible, I would love a list of authors which were mentioned as discussing the waves of mythological migration to the Americas. I was able to pick up on one of them: Michael Witzel. Any others that shed some good insight into this?
D'Huy, Le Quellec, Witzel, Berezkin all have books or papers, and some of my videos cover their work.
Why is Polynesia even necessary for the cosmic-man motif to make it's way to Mesoamerica? If the cosmic- man motif existed among the ancient North Eurasians--who were a significant source of both Indo-Europeans and Native Americans--then problem solved. It could have come with their migrations to America. So I'm confused about why he's exploring the Polynesian source. Was he saying the motif did not exist among the ancient North Eurasians?
Yes, it didn't need to, I think Simon was just exploring the different routes it may have arrived by.
Great, thanks!
I adored this. Decades . I saw this examination of our stars from people around the world. There's only so much one can do in the dark and around a fire. Star gazing, mapping, story telling are just a few.
The mapping was very accurate for its time.
We minimized what ancient ancestors did. They navigated the world with what was available at the time. They did it well.
Today was delightful. Such an educational opportunity for us. Thank you Jon, Simon.
I've followed Jon, for ages, now will follow Simon. What a joy.
We should go camping around a fire sometime. Imagine what our predecessors would be doing.
Simon mentioned the idea of creating a story based on panpsychism as a sacred element, that modern people could get behind. The Mimbari faith in the sci-fi show Babylon 5 did this, and people really connect with the idea.
I'll be checking that out! Thanks for sharing @natashatingle, I loved watching Babylon 5 back in the day. RUclips here I come! 😀
So great that you mentioned Michael Witzel and his book!!! Well done! He is a legend for writing that book. One thing that I absolutely agree with is that mythologies didn’t disperse in the Jungian “collective consciousness” ways - it was obviously due to diffusion at different ages.. and because of the mix between the ages of migrations, conquests, trade and other, we get different mythemes travel from different places at different times, mixing with the mythemes which are locally developed and refined, we get a lot of eclectic thinking which leads to polytheistic thinking and henotheistic thinking etc etc
Sorry I missed the live. Great show, what a fantastic project!
Truly an awesome fascinating video and conversation. Thanks to you both for doing this.
This is so very important, thanks
Great to see you on here Simon. All the best!
Amazing.....flow chart....excelente way to learn in comprehensive way
That was a very fun Livestream. Thank you both very much.
wonderful discussion
Loved this! Great conversations and observations. If/when you do it again I know I’ll be there!
Thank you so much for putting this together!!
Great work, keep it up.
Wonderful insight and collection of knowledge 😊❤
Damn! Wish I’d known this was on so I could watch live! Loved the stream though :)
Much better than an iceberg
That little picture with Simon with tree of religion in background looked like electronic musician with modular syntheser. And Jon looks like songwriter with bunch of rhyming dictionaries
Mythopia feat Jon F White - Future Magic (available in all good music shops)
Such a cool idea
This should be as common knowledge as the evolutionary chart with all the dinosaurs.
Digital overlays would be really great.
What an achievement, no matter what stage of development it is. Bravo
I find this so interesting, I had an Ancestry DNA test done and it showed up that I have Mesoamerican DNA. I have no clue how it got there but my guess is through my Asian or Fijian ancestors.
Not all rock art in Australia was made by the Aborigines according to the tribe elders, the very earliest rock art was done by people who were unknown to them. And the style of art is also very different. Interesting. ❤
Thanks!
Thank you so much for your support, it is appreciated.
When is Simon Davies Tree of Religion map going to be available, or is it now..??
It is, search for mythopia and you should find it.
I think it would be very good if you could clarify the thinking behind the classification like animism, shamanism, etc? How did you decide if anything is one or another? I think it’s easier to understand monotheism and polytheism, obviously, but these earlier ones and why something is called “ritual art”, “ancestor worship” etc? Because in my mind these are very much overlapping concepts and phenomena?
Great work.
Yes, I agree, and I had mentioned this to Simon some time ago. Animism and Shamanism takes many forms, and I think Simon was challenged with a space constraint to represent those in a detailed way.
Would be great to understand the earliest examples of the different forms like polytheism, monotheism, ancestral worship, shamanism, animism etc.
You said that the oldest written religious texts is the Vedas. Which does sound right. I am sure I read somewhere that the I Ching is the oldest religious text. Perhaps I'm misremembering and it said it's (one of) the oldest texts.
What are the dates of the Vedas compared to the I Ching. Were they close to each other?
Also where can I see this poster? Can I buy it?
It's a real stretch to assign to the category of "religion the remains of _Homo naledi_ in the Star cave system. There's still an ongoing debate about many aspects of the discoveries there.
Yes, I agree. There maybe mortuary behaviour there, but not necessarily mortuary religious ritual.
People forget that even Jesus, with all of the talk of love, still boils down to "or else!!!"
Hey Crecganford!
Since I do know, that you're fluent in German, I'd highly like to recommend the Channel *_Ardko_* he is a wonderfully counterpart of your work. I'd love you to check out his channel and I'm very interested in your perspective of his.
Thanks and best regards a fan of yours from Germany!
I wouldn't say I'm fluent, but I will take a look. Thank you.
@@Crecganford Thanks for your reply. I'm looking forward to hear from you. Have a nice evening.
I'm curious - today you see religion being cultural and historically stratified across the globe. And determines the majority of that areas human population and their beliefs. What typologies of ancient religions depend on the location and what about the region created that typology?
From what I know about the origins of Native Americans and their cultural evolution of mytholgies and religious-spritual ideas on themselves before the European Columbian discovery and colonization of their lands, most of them are evolved on their OWN. However there seems indeed at least for South America, some Austronesian/Polynesian genomics reached there several times on their time. There are also some myths from both Japan and ancient China about some old boat explorers reaching on some odd lands on the very far east beyond of the Japanese islands on what seems to be Mesoamerica on their Classical period.
And of course there are some hints of even older explorers coming from the Atlantic Ocean from the Phoenicians after they reached Ireland on the farthest northwestern on their world and also seems that reached Western Africa up to the Macaronesian islands (Cape Verde, Madeira, the Azores and the Canaries) and there are oddities elsewhere on both South America, North America and Middle America hinting on some Mediterranian-like type of peoples.
As part of my research I show that some core myths in the First Nation American cultures do come from Siberia and Asia, but they also had plenty of time to evolve these when migrating across the Americas.
@@Crecganford yeah of course most of it must came from the Siberian and the Northeastern Asia regions either after the temporary land-bridge of Beringia on the peak of late Ice Age as it rise several times, and it seems also some coast early sea-navigating through shore from the Ainu region on Hokkaido to the Americas. (Some physical and genetical evidence on fossils and even modern people on Native Americans seems to point an eerie resemblance to the original inhabitants of most of Japan before the later groups coming from Corea settled there and forced the Jomon-like people into the extreme north when they became the Ainu, or into the extreme south where they became the Ryukyu Islanders..)
Where can I buy a copy of this tree?
Simon will have a website soon, but until then you can follow him for free of Patreon to get the latest news on when/where it will be launched.
@@Crecganford thank you 🙏
1:17:45 7-day week is from length of moon phase. A lunar cycle is 28 days. A lunar phase is one fourth of that.
Yes, but not every one had a 7 night week, so why did they change?
How did you determine the date for Zoroastrianism? The Gathas are recorded in Old Avestan, which tends to push the time of Zarathustra into the second millennium BCE.
A good question, and I'll see if I can get Simon to read these comments and respond.
31:37 Anishinabe oral histories speak of them coming from the eastern sea, on a cloud or by sail, and others which came by turtle shells of wood, these migrations were few and far between while there was a pattern of Asiatic groups which came from the West and North West. DNA on Haplogroup X shows that these Algonquin groups ancient were directly connected with the Middle East. So there must be some
Migration on boat which primarily settles in the Great Lakes region and were part of the more ancient mounds of North America as the bulk of other DNA was directly out of NorthWestern Asia. Many Birch Bark Scrolls will supposedly be released this Fall. Their creation stories align with Chinese and Biblical creation myths. Animism as used by them is similar to Adapa naming characteristics, the animal was a symbol and taught almost as in parable and symbol and followed the same Mystery religion in acting out creation and mixing it with audience participation and covenant making. A new book called “In The Language of Adam” may be good supplemental reading and context.
Dear Dr. White and guest, the 7 Heads is mentioned in the Bible.= Which is only translated from older/Knowledgable texts. which now that youve shown that pictograh of the Menorah headed Giant.. i can begin to Imagine where its coming from..
The 7 heads isn’t real it’s symbolic. You have to find out what animal represents what civilisation and what they were referred to. Ie. 7 horns means 7 kings/kingdoms. Why 7 angels messages and what numbers represent. ….
Is there a website or link to browse ourselves?
There will be soon.
1) There is a good book about calendars Empires of Time by Anthony Aveni. 2) How can I order the Tree? I am from Austria.
You should visit Simon's RUclips or Patreon for information about ordering.
Chicomecoatl ("seven serpent", nahuatl) might stem from whatever that seven-headed being was that was found in Siberia.
Why do you think that whoever made up the god of the old testament, chose to make him so angry and vengeful? Likewise, that's also the end result in the new testament. Both testaments create a god who essentially said, " do/believe this, it you will be destroyed- because I love everyone so much"
Pangu in Chinese mythology looks a lot like Mimir of Norse cosmic mythology.
Yes, we do believe it was influenced from early Indo-European migrations via India.
I think there is a spelling mistake. I think “Na-denne” should be “Na-dene”.
Is there something on this chart, where i can trace a path of all of the religions with creation or recreation depending on a great flood, and the survivors being the ancestors to humanity?
I know thats a common enough origin
I'm not sure the tree will do that, but I have made a video about the origins of the flood myth, and so you could trace religion of the tree based on that criteria, and the dispersal should match myu research.
@@Crecganford thank you, I will look for that video
Regard Omnimyth. It must be monotheistic in principle. So there is one God as source of mentioned Sentience. But even in Judaeo-Christianity there are implications that God may use numerous avatars (hivemind Ophanim/Thrones incorrectly called Seraphim) from who one has additional three avatars (Trinity) with personality aspects. One ruling heaven, other ruling creation (the twin) and third working as arbiter between two spheres. Anyway the main gods/archangels are representing specific aspects of the One God (who as perfection can be in its creation). That is in fact echoed in Hinduism (Brahman) and modern Shinto (Ame-no-minakanushi). Interestingly in Kabbala there is eight spheres of heaven and in occult there is seven sins (eight if we include ignorance). What are sort of opposition or aspects of those. So yeh... that give us 16!
Great video. To give a more complete comment about "7." Originally, before 1000 BCE, 10 day and 8 day weeks started. 10 days is fairly obvious. 8 days was (at least) Egyptian in origin, could be numerological (2x2x2), the number of gods in the ogdoad or 4 cardinal directions split into male and female. The most obvious possibilities for magic number 7 are the seven "wanderers" in the sky or that, like 3, it is a prime number, which Egyptians and Babylonians were figuring out in the 2nd millennium BCE. Dividing 29 or 30 day lunar month by 4 supposed phases and getting 7 has never sat well with me, as it feels quite awkward, at least for a magic number you would use for creature heads or tree branches. That the seven headed person from the chart could have been happenstance is certainly possible. I'm not sure when magic numbers like 3, 4 and 7 could have become a thing to humans. Then again, it could just be some lost natural phenomenon like boulders, rivers, mountain tops, sacred animals at that point in time or whatever.
They don't all need to be connected. 7 this or 7 that can independently arise from many different ideas.
@@CliffSedge-nu5fv I was just today reminded how in the 3rd millennium bce sumerian story "debate between winter and summer," summer says "In my working term of duty, which is seven months of the year..."
So did gerbils create the first pollentheistic religions. 😁👍❤️
Very good... that made me chuckle. Thank you.
It looks like a computer motherboard
Hey! About the number 7. There are 7 colors on the rainbow (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and purple) there are 7 bodies in the skies whose movements were followed (mars, venus, the sun, the moon, mercury, jupiter and saturn), there are 7 chakras (root, sacral, solar, heart, throat, third eye and crown) there are 7 musical main musical notes (do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si). The number 7 is not used lightly, it is used to mimic the divine which exists in nature in the colors, planets/star, sounds. Moreover 7 can represent, the 4 main elements (water, fire, air, earth) plus the 3 states (cardinal, fixed and mutable).
very humorous, thanks!
The planets are the only one of those that are really genuine.
The number of colors and notes is a matter of convention that could have been decided differently (seven colors was actually popularized by Isaac Newton specifically because of the already-existing mysticism), the chakras are entirely made up, and the significance of the number seven also exists in cultures that never had a 'four elements" concept.
4+3 is also 7 and whats ever weirder is.... 7-3 is 4 the world truely works in mysterious ways
@@NovaSaber Maybe the planets are the only genuine one, yet I do think it’s interesting how 7 has spread far and wide. I understand Issac Newton was the first to conduct experiments with the light spectrum but rainbows already existed before him and were observed by many. I think the other systems, the chakra system and the musical system then mimic what was already happening with color naturally. Thanks for your comment!
The first one was an opinion of Newton, not an objective fact
"I do believe we're all pretty much alike. In fact we bred with each other so we can't be that different" 1:02:40 ish.
Wolves could breed with Jack Russells. Are they pretty much alike?
They are canines, and so yes, which are unlike fish who are so disimilar you shouldn't even call all fish, well, fish?!
We used to call whales fish too. So I take your point. But within the species they are quite different.
@@ladoboyo5452"quite different" only to your limited understanding and superficial perspective. How different are they really besides gross features like size and color?
Skeletons are nearly identical (other than size), organ systems are identical, DNA differs by a tiny fraction of a percent, metabolic processes nearly identical.
And most importantly, evolution from common ancestor very recently.
Your answer drips with hubris and lacks epistemic humility. Your response is undignified. You should remedy that.
Astrology should be considered a religion. There is perhaps some actual interplay with Science but however true it certainly has cosmic, religious, implications.
YT, lied said it was starting in 15min. Then showed up 2 hrs. after already airing
You don’t have Seventh Day Adventist in your tree. Christian religion monotheistic.
There are 40,000 sects of christianity. No point in putting them all there.
"...Talking at scholars as yourself, using AI, treating like Art..."
wtf was that in the middle.
Out of Africa has been De-Bunked Also!
People are debunking Out-of-Africa, evolution, dark matter, round earth, nuclear weapons, etc. etc. etc every day
@@LuDuxAre they though? Like really?
No, no they are not.
YT, Algorithm gods, stops me from posting on certain sites..
Yes, you should stop spreading misinformation.
What bothers and annoys me a bit is that this is presented as if it is “the end of all roads” and that somehow you two have monopoly over the topic. I don’t think this is a successful way to propagate and succeed in this space. I think you should be more inclusive and invite debate and conversation rather than act like what appears as if you know the answers to all questions.. 🤔
I'm not sure how you came to your conclusion as we were just presenting Simon's chart, that is all and talking about various parts of it. It is not perfect, but it is genuinely interesting, and we did ask for questions, and answered all that were asked.
@@Crecganfordjust saying.. pretending to know-it-all in this field is a mistake.. I welcome debate and discussion and hypothesis and sharing of information, but let’s not pretend any of us understands anything about any of this.. we’re all just scratching the surface..
Any criticisms of Hancok, have been influenced by the Cancel CULTure. Yes were are all One Family. "Oh ye generations of vipers."
You seem lost .
Found the crazy person.
First Nations people, NoRTH- South AMERUKA. Mung.. tribes, Feathered Serpents, Serpent Myths, Dragons arent Myths, theyre our Ancestors Accounts
Some hand Prints Have 6 Fingers. America 1st Nation's Have the 5 finger Beings.
That's only half the story... surely, they had 10 fingers.