Just watched it and I was glad to see you were brilliant on the topic! So many in the online ‘fitness’ thing are those red pill nonsense… and your line about them having time to work on women’s right in the future was perfect. Thanks man.
@@aarpoonwaify6694 what does Red Pill have to do with understanding people have conditions that they want to be seen as normal? If a man dresses up like a women for a joke its one thing but when they truly believe they are the opposite sex because of dressing up, its another. Would you tell a obese man or women they are healthy and not to worry about what others say? If so you are part of the problem and do not realize itm
As a barely-sub-17 parkrunner, seeing my name just scraping into the fastest 100 times was massively rewarding, and is my main goal every time I try a new course. I think a lot of people who are about that speed (quick, but not quick enough to do well in any properly serious race) enjoy the feeing of achieving something which is vaguely worthwhile like that, even if it is a bit pointless overall
@buhuhuh7757 for a start, they don't make the slow runners feel bad, secondly, besides course records, the age graded stuff is a great way for older people to gauge their fitness - everyone can benefit from that and nobody is going to be impaired by it - and lastly the point of parkruns is that people show up, and there are plenty of people who show up to try and win - as petty as you may think that sounds - so scrapping course records and fast finishers data will at best do nothing, but more probably deter faster runners from showing up
@@Timtherunner I held many male and female records, it all depended how I was feeling before race morning - stick the wig on or not to stick the wig on.
Hello from New Zealand. I stumbled across your channel at Christmas 2022. Feeling fat and unhealthy here was this guy talking about Parkrun. I discovered we had two in our city so early January we ventured out not knowing what to expect and it was a fantastic experience. From not being able to run 200m I now run 20km a week and did my 50th Parkrun this weekend. Thank you for the inspiration and keep up the great content!
As an old person that took up running recently( through parkrun ) and later, switched to a healthy lifestyle ( including quitting smoking after half a century,which ain`t easy) I will miss the age graded records. It gave me realistic targets that meant something. And watching my upwards progress through the top 1000 in my age group at my local parkrun was a great source of inspiration.The details..and fastest runners..were not important. The statistics were.
Same here. I started recently and found the age grade records really useful. My kids have also just started in the junior event and are performing well. Looking back at the last 10 years of data it informs you of how well they are doing instead of the current 'competition'. I also just enjoy browsing through stats!
@@herraghty Fair enough. But as the run is supposedly for fun, such records invite competition. But anyone can look at records from competitive runs that keep them and use those. Inclusion in park running has priority over records.
You mean keep a list...and update it regularly...of the top 1000 runners of all time, in my age group at my local parkrun?....you really aren`t helping. I don`t think you understand the issue, not at all.
As a runner in an older age bracket who travels to run different parkruns I am very disappointed to not have the age leagues for each run any longer. They helped make me competitive and added interest and motivation.
I gotta be honest, I really appreciate how progressive your channel is. Not that i'm surprised that it is--but it's just really refreshing and appreciated to hear from a guy who knows stuff who isn't such a Chad about it. We really appreciate it.
hey mark, thanks for tackling this topic in a sensible and rational way. i'm a trans woman that is trying to get more into running and does parkrun every now and then. personally i put myself down as male on parkrun's site, partly because i don't care much for contributing to those culture arguments, but also because even for something i suck at like running im too competative to not want to compare against biological males in my age range even if im at a disadvantage to those runners anyway the main reason im leaving a comment is because interestingly enough, you can still look up who has the fastest ever times at specific parkrun courses on their site. if on a course page you hover over results and go to event histroy, you can filter that course's parkruns buy fastest male and fastest female times, so it's not like theyve even scrapped it altogether
One thing that you (and all media) have missed here is the removal of age grade records. A 50/60/70 year old is unlikely to win one of their local 'proper' races but could target local age grade records. This was a huge motivation for many runners and it was extremely important to them As a parkrun RD one of the most angering things is the complete lack of respect and communication from HQ to the local teams. We dont buy the line about records being off putting as parkrun can provide no evidence. This has been handled just as badly as the dog lead mess a few years back
Was waiting to see your opinion on this, just found out about it today. The leaderboard for me and whole system of recording everyone's times has greatly boosted my motivation to get faster every time I go and see my friend's progress too, having age category and gender difference marked down is also a bonus as I get to look at something that says first in age category 😆 I look forward to watching the video
The problem is activists are talking equity, not equality. People assume they're the same thing because they sound similar. Equality is everyone gets to do park run. Equity is I'm offended by park run so you have to change it.
@@KevinJDildonikequity is equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity. I’m not sure how this reading applies to this situation.…? I guess they have achieved that…? But I don’t think the majority of people campaigning against parkrun were much bothered by the concept of equality
Hi Mark. Fellow Woodley and Reading Parkrunner. I can no longer look up the age category record for any particular parkrun. I hold 3 locally and enjoy....enjoyed the challenge of getting more. Did Newbury parkrun today and possibly got the VM55 but now will never know. Competition is a driving force for good so this is a sad day for Parkrun in my opinion. David.
I’ve done a couple of parkruns this year as I come back from injury and one of my goals along the way back to fitness was to pick up the infamous duck pond age-cat record. The impact of removing age-cat records is that I am just less like likely to do parkruns. I’ll probably still do some but one of the motivations has gone.
If you're David Parton, then you did get the v55 record on Saturday.........I only know this because all the records are still displayed on the 5k app. Congrats!
I love Parkrun and the fact it is freely available to all. For me it's a personal challenge. I'm racing myself and a few mates. I think it's wise to move away from records for all sorts of reasons x
The competition element of it was part of the fun. Changing the approach to publishing results because a few people get upset because they’re slow is mental. It should be inspiring to see how amazing people are doing, and drive you to improve. Not just being salty cause someone is better at a particular skill.
It still is competitive in my view because I’m only bothered about my time not what other people do, so simply missing a bit of data of the results does not bother me and they still publish the results anyway. However the real reason for the change is the transgender isssue.
You covered this topic perfectly Mark Yes there is a conversation to be had on professional trans athletes. but please can we all just turn up to run in a park on a Saturday without it turning political.
9:00 I’m a swimmer who runs for a bit of fun and any time I go for a fast 5k time it’s at a Parkrun. For me, course records were incredibly useful as an incentive to turn up and run faster, bringing me great reward when I first went sub 17 on my birthday to get the 15-17 course record. It made me happier to see my name up there when I managed to lower my time to 16:14 in the past year. These records will be a thing I miss as they have often helped me run faster to try and get an age group record or even an overall course record. Maybe I am in a privileged position where they are a tool I can use to incentify myself but as a runner who doesn’t do many road races it was a nice form of motivation.
My take as someone who does look regularly at these records (context: I've been a 28 minute 5km runner, and a 17 min 5km runner, currently sit somewhere between, and love Park Run): I use the records to work out where to go and run my sessions if I'm somewhere new - e.g. if I'm on holiday in Manchester I'd look at records to work out where I'd likely get a fast field of folks to run with, this is a relatively niche use case, and Strava would also give me this information. My worries with the change are: 1. Records often drive news coverage of Park Run (Ciara Mageean and Andy Butchart both got good coverage recently) and therefore introduce people to Park Run - could less records mean less news coverage? Maybe. 2. Records might entice elite athletes to come down to Park Run for their sessions. Do I want to see Philly Bowden striding off into the distance and crushing my local Park Run while she trains for a 2.25 marathon? Hell yeh I do. Will she be less enticed by lack of a record? Again, maybe. I'd tend to agree that the change won't really impact 'accessibility' - generally I find this patronising, and would rather some honesty than anything else. I'd also rather that Park Run, like every other business on the planet, maybe trials this - could you run a test with a big Park Run for 3 months - taking records off and tracking participation? Yes. Would that be hard to do? Absolutely not. If the framing was "we've tested this and it boosts participation by 20%" I'd have absolutely zero worries about the change...
Elite or semi Elite runners do park run for their sponsors for promotion on the social channels of their choice. They'll still show up. The titles about speed/records are just click bait.
Who's next Strava, Zwift? Ebikes and weight dopers? It's supposed to be fun. But we all love stats..well some of us do. Your points are all valid and rational but I feel that Parkrun is the worse for it all. It's a shame. Parkrun is still amazing and I will continue to support and participate..but hold no age group course records
@@rl7012 so are you then going to separate trans women on & HRT & those who are not (Penalising those who cant get treatment because of the 20-30 year NHS waiting ), those who had surgery, those who didn't & what about intersex women ? What about LGB women ? What about race ? What about separating people by wealth (as that is surely going to be a big factor in performance). Where are are you going to stop ? And how are you going to police it ?
@@ParacolidingDanni Stop being hysterical. Categories for biological sexes and a separate one for trans if they don't want to compete under their biological sex. What is so difficult about that? And how am I going to police it?? Seriously? You never heard of the honour system? It has been in use for thousands of years it is where people are HONEST and tick the right biological sex box. If someone lies though and they get caught, simple, they just get disqualified and booted out. But you seem to be saying that all the transgenders are liars then and won't be honest? If that is the case, then once they get caught they can jog on somewhere else. It is not hard to tick the right box. If they can't do that, then deserve to be booted out.
@@ParacolidingDanni literally. and if they're making this exclusion based on 'unfair advantage' then shouldn't cis categories be split into height, weight, age, experience etc as well?
hi mark, I'm a transgender man and just wanted to leave a comment commending you for how level headed this video was. these kind of videos which even offhandedly address transgender people in sports (especially from people like yourself who aren't exactly outspoken social justice warriors) often make me worried that I'm about to find out a RUclipsr I find funny/interesting/inspiring is actually a bigot. I've been enjoying your content for the past year and you've helped me feel motivated to keep up my (albeit spotty) workouts, so I was worried about the content of the video! however you approached this very well and even made some tasteful jokes in the middle, even if I don't necessarily agree with each point you made. appreciate the respect shown to all involved in this, keep up the good work.
As 20min-ish runner trying to make the sub 17 list was quite motivating. I think that’s what bugs me, we all Parkrun for different motivations at different stages of the journey, and it feels like they’ve stripped some objectives from a few, when I don’t think anybody was really put off by them. If that was the issue you’d stop timing the event. Now you mentioned the trans issue, it actually makes a bit more sense.
I am very happy they're notbshowing records anymore. To me, park runs should be about easy, inclusive fun and connection, not competition and complex social issues. Interestingly, i feel like cis men are more likely than cis women to be disappointed in not having those results displayed. And to all those who are, I say this: keep track of your own time. And if you go with friends who are competitive, track yourselves as a group. There's no need to impose your competitiveness on others, AT A PARKRUN! either that, or volunteer/donate so that instead of being displayed publicly, it cam be sent out to those participants who want the results.
Pausing the video pretty early on, as anyone talking about trans people on what is normally my hobby and a bit of escapism for me (running) fills me with a little fear. It does feel like a lot of people making noise about trans people at parkrun have 0 interest in running, parkrun or womens sports in general, and are only making noise as they see it as another vector of attack. Their end goal isn't to make sport better, it's to make life worse for trans people. I just want to rock up on a Saturday with my running friends and try and beat my time from last week.
I make exactly that point. Interestingly! If you believe some “vocal” people it seems once the trans issue is resolved. There will be a lot of men still passionate about women’s rights and wondering what to tackle next. 😂. #sacasmmode
Trans women are still biologically men and should not compete against biological women. It’s not hating. It’s exactly the same reason why a full grown woman can’t identify as a 12 year old boy and win every race. If you think that should be allowed you’re being misled by the activists.
Really sensible comments. I wouldn't have known where to find the age-related records on my parkrun website. And you can still work out the course records by trawling through the event history. The course records are the only ones of any interest, as it's nice to know that the runner who flew past and lapped you did actually break the record. Think parkrun ducked the trans issue as you suggest, but the alternative was to hide behind the UK athletics gender rules and they probably decided it just wasnt worth the hassle. And if you want to see some really obsessive behaviour, have a look at the News entries for Brockenhurst parkrun!
Mark, I found out about, and started running at Parkrun after binge-watching you in July last year. I'm 51, 87kg now. I was 139kg in May 2022 and currently run 40k a week. So, thank you very much for the introduction and the self-help inspiration, to get myself above average, which I will be very, very soon. As for the Parkrun changes, I think it's the first step on a downward slope. The way these things generally go, the loud voices that drown out all others just make more and more demands for change. So this is the first attempt at appeasement, and is far from the last. I wonder what will be next, finishing position? Your time? The number of participants? The same argument can be made for the removal of all of these.
Held my breath clicking on this video but i think you're pretty much spot on - why this is parkrun's problem to solve is beyond me. Professional athletics is another issue, and still one that can be approached with compassion and without the hatred of innocent individual people who just want to exercise, run amd even compete as themselves.
Why do they then pander to trans runners. 0.0000001% of their participants if that and yet here we are excluding the 99.9999999% of people just to save about 10 peoples hurt feelings.
@@coldworld5 I don’t think it’s pandering I think it’s too hard for a volunteer organised event to police as ML stated. Not every professional sport has sorted the issue yet, which is way worse. Look at the mess of college swimming in the US.
@@coldworld5They're not pandering to trans people. They're pandering to rightwing shitheads taking issue over their voluntary gender registration process enabling ragistration as female to anyone. You're barking the wrong tree. I'm pretty sure there were 0 trans runners asking to take the times down.
Mark covered this in the video. It's not about refusal, it's about not having the resource. Parkrun is run by volunteers, you can't (and shouldn't) expect volunteers to be enforcing difficult/complex rules surrounding gender in sport at a local park event. @@kevinmorice2
Thanks for this! Finally a voice of reason. The tantrums I have seen in the community seem to be from people who don’t even really want the toy, they want to be having the fight over the toy. I would counter the idea that this move won’t make parkrun more inclusive. It’s been a fairly strong signifier that they won’t be bullied by the bullies and that it is a safe space for trans athletes. In a world where many spaces aren’t. For that reason alone, I support the decision.
8:43 is spot on .... I just came from park run today ... Elite runners usually just record their time for fun ... I got lapped by a sub 17 guy today and after recording time he kept on running and again overtook me .... Sub 20 is surely an alien world for me right now pushing towards sub 30 right now.....
Some great points here. Honestly, as a female athlete, I'd much rather transwomen are supported, welcomed and encouraged to participate in sports than exclude them from records or shunt them into a "you-don't-belong-anywhere" category just because some transwomen are faster than me. I'll happily be runner-up to a transwoman, if the alternative is trans people feeling like they shouldn't join in. And the idea of imposing limits on transwomen just to stop men from taking advantage of Parkrun welcoming trans athletes seems like blaming an innocent party. Inclusivity seems ESPECIALLY important in a volunteer-run event like Parkrun, which is about bringing the community together for a low-stakes, friendly challenge.
Exactly. Your point that slow/new runners wouldn't be put off knowing what the course record is is exactly right. Like, nothing is stopping them from looking up the world record for 5k either. Also, if you run a parkrun slowly, you ALREADY KNOW you are slow - when you get lapped! Parkrun is essentially disincentivising those faster runners who would do the lapping from attending the event, to make everyone feel less bad about themselves. It's so bizarre, and frustrating.
I find it hard to believe anyone who runs a parkrun in near-record time actually gives a hoot that their time no longer appears on the Parkrun website. I would think those people are treating the Parkrun as lighthearted fun training.
oh God.. I hadn't thought about those being lapped.. we've got a complete new category from which people can feel offended! Time to ban all courses with more than one lap!
@@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx really? Ive lapped and been lapped and happily cheered on the faster runners and never felt they purposely lapped me to feel better about themselves.. if they do, I'd feel a bit sorry for them tbh. if it made them feel special, good luck to them.. it wouldnt ruin my day!
This whole discussion is confusing to me as a back of the pack-er. Before doing a race for the first time the stats I'm checking are the slowest times, to make sure the volunteers won't be out there an extra 30 minutes just for me. I don't care AT ALL what the front is doing.
I think you sum it up very well mark. I was very close to my parkrun record a few years ago, it's pushed on another 30 seconds now so probably out of my reach. It was a fun thing with a few other runners who you see most weeks and was a big motivator for me for a time. I appreciate I have other event and things going on but that does feel a bit like "oh they're fast so they don't need those little things to make the feel good, or motivate them" I'm probably a bit more personally offended Vs you but I don't really care. It does leave me with the feeling though that another thing in life is being removed due to over sensitive people pressuring big companies/institutions
We don't have this in US, so who knows. I always thought park run was an unofficial event. Not a race. So you show up and run. Yes, they tell you a time. But it's not a race, not official. So I don't get why they ever published anything. Makes sense to not release results.
I used to love looking at the age group course records, they inspired me to improve and train harder, even though I would never attain one of the records, very disappointed.
The problem is that this isn't Parkruns's problem, and in the current climate they have no way to do anything that won't anger a large cohort on either side. I'm very data-focussed, so I like the records, and all the stats, and don't find it off-putting at all.
But there isn’t a “huge cohort” on either side. There is 99.9999% normal man/woman people who just want to go for a run and see their numbers progress as they improve and then there is about 200 extreme trans activists on Twitter that me pander too. And the irony is, my trans best mate and all her group of trans mates absolutely hate these activists because it makes their lives hell.
But it won't anger a large cohort on both sides, will it?. On one side it will anger a large majority, whereas on the other side it would anger a vanishingly few, but very vocal, group of trouble-making individuals, the 'usual suspects' if you like.
@@coldworld5and for all of these 200 odd activists you say there are there’s 5x that amount who hate they exist. Parkrun were caught between a rock and a hard place. What else could they have done?
@@sjbgilmore there is always going to be bigots. There are people who hate that anyone exists. Park run could have done nothing. Or they could have made another category or they could have needed ID if you break a record. While Mark is clearly framing any man who speaks out for women as transphobic I like many others have daughters. I don’t care what ‘ist’ I’m accused of being. I don’t want biological males in their changing rooms and I don’t want biological males demolishing them in the respective sports they compete in.
Have you read the annual report and seen the millions they get in govt grants, i.e. our taxes? The board take around a million a year between them and the founder plus his wife around 130 to 150k a year in pay. Its only voluntary at the event level.
@@gourdbox I tend to agree with you. I started my boycott of our two local PRs this morning. As a 'geezer' with my best times well in my past, the age graded league and AG categories were good motivators. I will find other alternatives for my Saturday hard run, just as I had for the decades I ran before I started Parkruns.
Another take: They hoped if they deleted the times, they'd avoid gender drama. Instead they now they have two problems: Trans runners are taking women's times en masse, and park run look like they're covering it up, which just makes it worse.
Best thing they could have done would have been to continue to do nothing, leave everything as is and not even engage the anti-trans activists Parkrun UK have generated all this drama and attention on itself as a result of acting to appease them. It was basically a non-issue before
You've got a great attitude Mark, very positive and very in tune. I totally agree with you, in fact I can't see any other way of looking at this. They're right to delete the records, it isn't athletics...it's not a competition, it's a communal social run.
The only people who care about course records are the actual people who have them and who are in the sub17 and sub 20 categories (including myself). It’s pretty annoying that the competition side of parkrun has been completely dismissed because of a tiny minority 😢.
One of my friends is a regular sub 17 runner but he is a competitive runner and has been for years so he has actual events to train for. But others have parkrun as their only run with or against other people. Its good to get a gauge of how you're progressing or not. I have a friend who was always slower than me but now regularly beats me. Neither of us are going to be affected by this thankfully , we aren't troubling record holders.
I'm a trans man. I always find it strange that trans women are the only ones brought up in discussions like this. It's so disheartening to be reminded how much some people hate us. All we want to do is work on our fitness and stay healthy, not end the world as we know it. We're just people!
It's really not that many people that hate you. Trans woman Nadia won Big Brother with something like 3.8m votes in 2004. Barely anyone cared. The issue is the objective reality that male bodies have inherent sports advantages which is why the sexes are split and now that split has basicy been removed which generally disadvantages women.
@@JCJW101 Truth be told I wasn't really focussed on that part while writing the comment. For me, it's always the violence and staggering rage and hate that always come with the discussions. It's exhausting. Additionally, I would challenge the idea that the divide has been removed at all. What are you basing that on? In the example of park run, it's always been an honour system. The potential for people to lie has always been there. In the instance of trans people, we don't really have the numbers to create that big an impact, especially not in an event that includes so many.
@@romanjohnson8128 It's created a big enough of an impact that they've scrapped all the times altogether which is quite frankly massive. If no one had ever pushed the narrative that trans women are women or trans men are men and sports had been kept divided by birth sex like it has for thousands of years there wouldn't have been as much pushback and rage as there is now. It's almost like the people doing that are wanting the pushback 🤷♂️
Like several who have commented below, I too am an older runner who found it really motivating to have records of times ran by other men of my age. Personnely, I have no problem with anyone being trans but, I think we should consider passing a law to make it illegal to misstate your biological sex. Ok I'm happy to accept a new category called something like "presented gender" but that needs to be clearly separated from biological sex.
i miss the results tbh, i like the numbers esp for the juniors. Some of the neurodiverse kids that come along are totally motivated and study the stats, its kinda their thing and helps keep them interested. i went touring today and did miss my glimpse of my age group at the new place. it gives me a feel for how popular and you can see if there are famous people who ran it even if you didnt go the same week as them.
Spot on. There was no need to remove the junior results. For children, watching their times and positions on leaderboards improve, (as junior times naturally will), could be a massive spur.
Am I missing something? The weekly results look the same to me, you can still study those if you want, see the names of everyone else on there and their age categories. All that's gone is the overall course records, which don't change that much.
@FedoraPirate course records gone, fastest 500 gone, sub-17 male gone, sub-20 female gone, age category records gone, age-graded league gone, 1st finishers gone. All these stats were studied in detail by many many runners, especially the younger athletes, many of whom take their rankings very seriously.
@@FedoraPirate i prefer to look at how i am doing in my gender age category as a slow runner its more realistic for me and look for how i do against friends of my age and esp if i tour. i do much better against my age than i feel i do from the actual run as there are often a lot of male 20-30 year olds so it helps me motivate myself. i cant click on my age anymore.
I love your videos Mark - down to earth, really helpful, very funny! I also love Park Run - I get so much out of it and can’t say enough good things about it. I am a very average 53 year old female runner who the records will never be relevant to but I did enjoy looking at them as someone who loves a stat. However in principle I am so angry at this change, simply because as has become usual the actions of a few biological men (hope they’re really proud of their female records! How embarrassing for them) have taken away something that may have been important for many others. Shame on them. And yes I realise it is a v difficult situation for Park Run to deal with - but they shouldn’t be hiding from the true reason they have made the change.
I agree with you 99%. 2 things. 1) you can still see the 'course record' just sort the results by fastest time on event history 2) whilst you, and I, would not be put off in the slightest by there being a course record and it being prominently displayed, I believe 100% that are is a non-trivial number of people that are that sensitive and would be put off by that, and they are the exact people that should be doing parkrun.
Progressive people often have a problem trying to cater to a minority of people, and hurting everyone in the process. It's the opposite of the conservative problem which can be more screw you if I stand to gain. Neither is exactly right. Like why can't people opt out of time tracking? Problem solved.
Understand some might fine it offputting but wouldn't that be easily fixed by just making the stats less visible, so you have to actively seek them out, rather than scrapping them altogether?
If seeing someone's fast time would put you off attending, surely seeing an equal amount of very slow times which there are plenty should have the opposite effect. It's a nonsense argument
It's definitely not for Parkrun to sort this out, even if it needs 'sorting'. The rules on eligibility from England Athletics (via UK Athletics via World Athletics) for competition eligibility aren't overly complex but well beyond the scope of a volunteer organisation to contemplate dealing with. It's hard enough for affiliated local clubs to do and we cop enough grief when trying to comply! I'm an infrequent Park-runner but I really like being able to see the course records and historical results, particularly age-graded. Partly to see how I stack up against other 50-somethings and it's nice to see what others can achieve.
Removing the age graded thing is frustrating. I'm slow, can barely jog around a 5km due to muscular skeletal problems but I like to see how close I can get to average for my age even with the additional health stuff. It motivates me
@@kevinmorice2 there's no way for Parkrun to enforce it though other than the honour system. Without forcing people to be UKA (or whatever your local national governing body is) members.. which is another hurdle for people to cross.
@@IainThacker Change the registration system to specify sex at birth - done. Also, what is wrong with the honour system? It will be enforced by the rest of the community, as has effectively been done here. Why has it taken Men losing their records for people to notice years of Women being pissed off about losing their records? Also, the bigger question of how Parkrun exists outside UKA/IAAF system has always been ridiculous, and driven by their insistence that they wouldnt submit permits and Policing requests like any ‘real’ race is forced to do.
@@kevinmorice2 and how will that be enforced....are people supposed to bring birth certificates to a park run? Also, affectively forcing trans people to out themselves just to do a fun run really isn't an option!!
For most people nothing has changed. I did parkrun yesterday, the result email had all the usual info including placing, age category and wava. Volunteered at juniors today, again nothing has noticably changed. There are some seriously worrying things going in in the world that people should get exercised about, but this?! Thanks for the vid. 👍
You're right, Parkrun is being used by people with an agenda. Parkrun isn't a proper athletic race and shouldn't be treated as such (although France think differently so all Parkruns there are suspended). I doubt many course record holders would care when they're training for official races. My local course record holder represents his country and can't fit Parkrun in usually. Hopefully this measure nips things in the bud and we all can carry on parkrunning.
As a beginner, knowing the course record is a great way of knowing how difficult the course is although I suppose the average time will still be a good guide? Still haven't done my first park run yet and this won't make a blind bit of difference to when I decide to finally participate but it might make it slightly more difficult to decide which one to do...... Only been running for 8 weeks but ready to have a go as soon as a little niggle in my calf disappears..... Really looking forward to it. Thanks for another great video as always.
As a tail-plodder myself, my advice to you would be to just go and do it! Je ne regrette rien. Don't even worry about average times, as these are also influenced by the number of people walking rather than running. (You can either love me or loathe me for dragging down the average finish time!)
Forget the leaders, i need to stop eating as much, my last three parkrun times have been awful. Need to get back under 30 mins again. Then again it was a mudbath in yorkshire today! Me and three others discussed this at the finish today, we all agreed turning up and actually finishing today was most important thing, by a long way. I really wish i could talk more people into parkrun as best thing I've doing in past year.
In Montana, my closest park run is 9ish hours (by car) away. I'd love to see a park run start up locally. When I heard about this I was worried you wouldn't be able to see your personal stats. Plenty of people could use park run to track their progress without having to spend any money on fancy kit. It sounds like that is still available. Seems like they made the best of a bad situation.
Maybe it doesn't matter at Parkrun, but the same overall issue applies to other events and is only becoming more palpable over time. Regardless of how fast or slow I am, if I'm paying $100+ to enter a race, I don't want anyone but biological women in my division when the results are posted. Races would probably need to confirm biological sex at packet pickup in the future if they cared about reality, but they will probably just carry on feeding into the trans hysteria. (I don't think your sex on any official I.D. should contradict what you were at birth, so that would theoretically be sufficient to prove your sex, but now you can change your I.D., too.)
I wish ppl would understand that even just turning up and getting round a 5km is better than 99% of the population (yes I pulled that number out my ass) but you see my point.
I am curious to know the trans participation rate now that records are not public. Does that dissuade mtf people competing? Or do they continue to participate?
Should onus not be on how you register? Trans issue is not really an issue if people registered correctly. There should be a distinction made between trans males, trans females, cis-male, cis-female. I think the records are a good thing to measure your progress.
Yeah but the problem there is, who decides who has registered "correctly"? That would be a huge can of worms for Parkrun. Like what actually IS the distinction between trans and cis? If all it comes down to is identity, then that's literally impossible to moderate. A person can choose to identify as anything they want, at any time they want, regardless of how they've lived their life up to that point.
I think this is actually a pretty solid take; hit all the important points with humanity. Well said. And removing the records but leaving the full results up also seems like a fair compromise for a casual event not intended as serious competition. As a (slow) woman, there is no way I would take part if I had to get sex-tested for an event. As for the organisers, I'm pretty sure none of them wants to get involved in that kind of thing either. Must admit, I had a hard time just finding the results (let alone the records) when I was hunting for an event near me - I was particularly interested in slowest time, as much more relevant to me...
The removal of age category matters because it's been there for 19 years of parkrun and no good / legitimate reason has been given for their removal. As you say, it doesn't really put people off. On the contrary the records motivate far more people to strive to improve, or become, let's say, `Above Average'. Also, still on today's parkrun, results are listed in finishing order so if anyone is demotivated by comparison, they still get an email saying they were 248th out of 251 in a time way slower than the average for that course. Totally pointless and counter-productive move from parkrun. That's if you believe their reasons which clearly you, us and anyone with an ounce of perception do not.
My PB is around the 20 min mark. As I get better I'm sure I'll get faster, and always enjoyed seeing what the top performers could do on any given course. I drew inspiration from it and felt like it gave me something specific to work towards on any given course. So it was a feature I liked. Not broken up about it, but it certainly is a mild inconvenience.
Non competitive running. It should be about your own time not what anyone else is getting. It's nice to have the times to map your own progress and goals but that should be all it is.
I think the argument that "how can Parkrun be expected to verify gender?" is a little bit of a strawman. I don't think the people who mind trans inclusion are actually suggesting that everyone's gender should be verified before they run. I *think* most of them probably just want Parkrun's official position to be that transwomen shouldn't register as women, so that whenever the fastest woman looks a bit androgynous they can kick up a stink and accuse them of cheating.
Been heavily involved in parkrun for years, and in fact was Run Director this morning at my local event. I love parkrun, even though I can't even run anymore, and I always will. But I love it a little less now. The stats they got rid of were frequently inspiring and informing. A bad decision, under admittedly awkward circumstances
As a trans person who does occasional park runs, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s a respectful and fair conversation to be had about trans athletes (which is largely over-politicised sadly), but park run isn’t the place for it. The spirit of park run is, and has always been, to get anyone and everyone out running/jogging/walking for the love of it. Each park run can maintain its competitive element for that week’s run as you’re still going to have winners, but course records and gender stats seem fairly irrelevant overall for this kind of event
@@rl7012delusional that the inclusive, community driven spirit of park run is more important than shouting about course records? Interesting (and slightly depressing) take, but you do you I guess
I think this has been coming for a while for multiple reasons, not just the headline one. There is an issue with toxic and unpleasant behaviour from some of the participants, I have seen and experienced this first hand at the front of the field, as has my partner a little further back. Whilst some people will just be a-holes (like making it difficult for women to pass), others are so focused on the competition, nobody else matters (including other park users). I hope that removal of the records (which I have a few of) will help to make parkrun less competitive, and long term be less attractive to some of the toxic participants who won't change. We actively avoid some venues because the behaviour of some participants make it unpleasant, I hate to think what it must be like for other participants. I personally don't think this is the end of the changes, I expect that for parkrun to be seen as a non competitive, fully inclusive public health event, published results may not in future show age or gender, because they are not needed to achieve parkrun's objectives.
This is a really important point. I have witnessed some unpleasant behaviour which definitely has put me off participating in Parkrun. Removing the course records (which probably shouldn't have been published in the first place) is absolutely consistent with clarifying that it is NOT A RACE, something which lots of people seem to be confused about. If you want to test yourself against other people and have your achievement recorded for posterity, then enter a RACE. There is no shortage of them out there.
I'm one of those trans athletes. And honestly? The absolute shit that has been levelled at me. I've been sent death threats, called all kinds of names, you name it. The number of trans athletes this concerns is probably under 10. Any man can change their profile and claim a female title; that's not new. A genuinely trans runner, faces a bigger problem in actually staying fast. When you're trans, you take hormones. Like I do. EA wants to see blood test results before they will recategorise you. And what does HRT do to you? Robs you of muscle mass. I was a 22 minute runner, now I'm a 27/28 minute runner, because of the mass I have lost. I train no different (well, adaptations because of surgery aside) but it's actually slowed me down, not gained me anything, and certainly not given me access to any course records. I'd like if everyone could actually take this on board, and get to the bottom of those cheating, to get a record for running round a god damned field, with no entry fee or recognition other than "it's roughly 5k long, Susan measured it three years ago and the turn around cone goes where that lump of grass is over there. Ish." - there are bigger things to worry about, and I'd quite like to not be told to kill myself by strangers on the internet because I now have boobs.
well they have had to change the rules because of them and in other sports. so why isn't it happing the other way around. why aren't biological women dominating men's categories.
The obvious point for me is that park run does not have the resources to verify records. And any steps to so would be way to over the top. Its a fun run that's getting all a bit too serious. Its a shame the records can't stand - but if there is no integrity to them - they are pointless anyway!
I think they might actually be harming those people they say they are protecting. Those fatter, older parkrunners who are genuinely using comparison with others in a similar age range as motivation and target setting. It won't stop those people improving, but like many things in life it might change the way they see it or look at it. Perspective is everything. More information available is usually better, even if you don't use it, because you can genuinely use it to improve.
I'm just completely envious of people that HAVE parkruns around them. The nearest to me is 90 minutes away, here in the states near Philly. I don't think the records would mean a damn thing to me, though I'm proud of my time as an old guy. What's more important by 100 fold is if I could get my wife and my family to participate in the parkruns. I am sorry there are trans athletes and people who hate trans athletes that want to make this a big issue. Parkrun is wonderful and I just hope they continue and thrive and spread.
I really enjoyed Park run last year, and seeing my stats (and I'm pretty slow lol) as well as other people's was interesting and motivating for me, this is such a shitty change
As a huge fan of Parkrun, I just wish they had been honest about the reasons behind it all. I now don't buy the idea about people being upset if they see a course record. I actually checked the average attendance at my local parkrun in the weeks before the change and the weeks after it. The difference - nothing! Thanks again Mark (Cindy?) though for another great video!
As a trans woman who (to my genuine surprise) finished first female back in Sept 22, I did change to no gender as a mark of respect - having discovered it was then actually possible as I did it at a pretty big Parkrun at the age of 48(!) as a keen but hobby runner - I did catch a slow day but felt uneasy about it. I'd encourage other trans women to register the same way, however, I would understand the reluctance thanks to how we are stigmatised so badly in the right wing media!
easy said, until you finally place on a podium and it motivates you to bea those 30 seconds. With your attitude you can pull it through all the way to the olympics and the world records. Its an internal pride of 100s maybe 1000s of people that got token away by some transgender people that had to ruin the party. Thats how my competitive spirit thinks of it. Marc stood on a podium once he should know that is a pride he can carry internally for years to come. It has nothing to do with world records but a feeling of accomplishment in a personal journey. transpeople need their own section in the record books and it shouldnt be put on the burden of the local volunteers and cheaters should be let out of the books. If you are so hard in denial of your birth gender that you make it a personal issue and change i dont mind. BUt if you make it a public issue posing it on all others in all parts of life i do mind and it pisses me off. Its almost like a southpark kind of cynism i feel wiht this whole ordeal.
Exactly Mark sums it up , I Marshalled here in Cornwall this Saturday it rained for most of the run , so impressed to see people putting in the effort , getting it done in the rain
Thanks for the video Mark, I wasn't aware ParkRun had removed the records. I'm running my first ParkRun soon and was genuinely curious not really to see the fastest or slowest times, but to see where I may come among people in my age range. I guess in the fullness of time I'd have liked to know that for my age and stage I was at least above average; or strive eventually to be so. The course average will have to do then I guess. Anyhow, thanks for the video, helps a lot!
Very reasonable points to a tricky subject. I very much liked you point about angry men on forums "protecting" women. I can't wait for them all to get together and support womens sports (or not!)
I just compare my time with my previous runs, if I'm improving good if not maybe it was a slow day or I'm consistent. I'll never achieve the sub 20 mins for a park run, I'm just not that quick or dedicated to achieving those times. I admire anyone who does achieve those milestones. So long as they keep a record of my times I'm good
The fact that it was timed and had results is what motivated me to do it. Now there’s no motivation to do it. I can just run the route any day at any time. Doing it on Saturday at 8AM no longer makes any difference.
Spot on there! This is FREE weekly timed event every Saturday, my own records are still there, I never was interested in who was fastest just average time which gives indication on how tough it is and that was my aim to be above average doing parkrun tourism
Gonna be looking out for some decent times from Cindy in the future! Why is it usually people that are not actually involved in these types of things become the most outspoken? Can't have anything nice these days. Nixon should have been good/boy ;)
As a club runner and a run director at my local Parkrun I don’t actually care or mind the change. Although if they are trying to get the message across that parkrun isn’t a race. Then why do parkrun results go on power of 10?
See how he made fair points to most sides without throwing anyone group under the bus??? It’s possible to have tough discussion without demeaning, thank you for displaying this for folx. 🙏🏾🏳️⚧️
Parkrun is not broken and did not need fixing. Keep everything as it was but have the categories for BIOLOGICAL sex and that will stop the attention seeking cheaters.
It won't. I'm a hairy arsed bloke and there's nothing to stop me clicking the 'Female' box. Putting the 'trans' issue aside, that's what some attention seeking men have been doing. Short of DNA testing every finisher there's no way to enforce it. It's just idiots spoiling it for the many, and that's nothing to do with 'wokery'.
@@jacklurcher5813 Yes there is. You use the same system people have used for thousands of years. Honesty. You ask people to be honest and tick a box of either male, female or trans. If they lie and get caught, then they get disqualified and booted out. Simple.
My wife just fell out with me about this issue. I like recording my times because I want to get faster. She is put off from entering because she's worried fast people will look at her time and laugh. Someone in all sport has to come first, and someone has to come last. Surely everyone in between (including the person who came last and first) is inspired by knowing where they are? The 20 min times are inspired to go faster, the 40 min time has motivation to go faster.
No. Some people feel shame when they see their times and shame is the most toxic emotion when it comes to inclusivity. You feeling that surely everyone must feel the same as you do doesn’t make you correct.
@@ellieban people who want to do parkrun without worrying about the time should absolutely be encouraged. If you just want to get around the course every week, then absolutely fine and good for you. I've got medals for participating in other events - I didn't win anything, I just took part. But if you feel shame when you see your time, then doesn't that mean you want to improve it?
I have a friend who does parkrun every week and just doesn’t scan. Takes his barcode at the end, drops it in the bucket, and it’s marked as “unknown”. All the fun of parkrun, with nothing recorded. Could be a way for her to get involved without being worried about people seeing her time.
@@ellieban If the community is welcoming, there should be no feel of shame & if you feel ashamed about your times, simply don't record any. To me that sort of emotion is something that needs to be solved at the root cause, not by getting rid of times/measurement and only treating the symptom. When kids in school feel ashamed because they get bad grades, does that mean we should get rid of grades? Same when it comes to the workplace and measure performance? Or might it be a better solution to try to work on the reason why people feel a lack of self-worth and make them realise, that everybody had different strengths & weaknesses and we should accept these and measure ourselves with our version of yesterday/last week/last month and improve, if we really want to compare us?
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Some strong opinions around this one - let's keep the comments section the correct side of bat shit bonkers 😂
Haha… ok King Canute… good luck with that! 🌊
Just watched it and I was glad to see you were brilliant on the topic! So many in the online ‘fitness’ thing are those red pill nonsense… and your line about them having time to work on women’s right in the future was perfect.
Thanks man.
@@aarpoonwaify6694 what does Red Pill have to do with understanding people have conditions that they want to be seen as normal? If a man dresses up like a women for a joke its one thing but when they truly believe they are the opposite sex because of dressing up, its another. Would you tell a obese man or women they are healthy and not to worry about what others say? If so you are part of the problem and do not realize itm
We'll behave ;)
I’m just here for the laugh. Thanks once again!
New parkrun rule ... new records only count if you stand on a podium in front of a duck pond
🦆
Yeah, let the ducks decide. That way, "No ducks given" is a valid title.
😂🤣😂
But that would be just ducking the issue.@@Fleshcut
That's quackers.
As a barely-sub-17 parkrunner, seeing my name just scraping into the fastest 100 times was massively rewarding, and is my main goal every time I try a new course. I think a lot of people who are about that speed (quick, but not quick enough to do well in any properly serious race) enjoy the feeing of achieving something which is vaguely worthwhile like that, even if it is a bit pointless overall
Joe, are they eliminating just the course records or also the weekly race results?
Like we can still track our own times, yeah?
Exactly why do we have to change everything just because seeing their 40 minute time might make the shit runners feel bad
@@joelmacinnes2391 why do we need to keep them just to make fast runners feel good?
@buhuhuh7757 for a start, they don't make the slow runners feel bad, secondly, besides course records, the age graded stuff is a great way for older people to gauge their fitness - everyone can benefit from that and nobody is going to be impaired by it - and lastly the point of parkruns is that people show up, and there are plenty of people who show up to try and win - as petty as you may think that sounds - so scrapping course records and fast finishers data will at best do nothing, but more probably deter faster runners from showing up
This is exactly how my son is. He shines at parkrun, but in club races he's average. He loved that he was at the top of some age group leaderboards
Dam my 12min 35 sec course record has been deleted 😂 you’ll just have to take my word for it now. 😅
Congratulations on your record time 🎆🎆 😏
With that profile pic I dont know why you haven't gone sub 10 minutes yet!!!
🤣
Yes I held all course records in the country except your one
@@Timtherunner I held many male and female records, it all depended how I was feeling before race morning - stick the wig on or not to stick the wig on.
Hello from New Zealand. I stumbled across your channel at Christmas 2022. Feeling fat and unhealthy here was this guy talking about Parkrun. I discovered we had two in our city so early January we ventured out not knowing what to expect and it was a fantastic experience. From not being able to run 200m I now run 20km a week and did my 50th Parkrun this weekend. Thank you for the inspiration and keep up the great content!
keep up the good work bro💪💪
As an old person that took up running recently( through parkrun ) and later, switched to a healthy lifestyle ( including quitting smoking after half a century,which ain`t easy) I will miss the age graded records. It gave me realistic targets that meant something. And watching my upwards progress through the top 1000 in my age group at my local parkrun was a great source of inspiration.The details..and fastest runners..were not important. The statistics were.
Same here. I started recently and found the age grade records really useful. My kids have also just started in the junior event and are performing well. Looking back at the last 10 years of data it informs you of how well they are doing instead of the current 'competition'.
I also just enjoy browsing through stats!
Nothing to stop you keeping your own records.
@@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx I do. The point is that other records in the age grade are not collated for comparison any longer.
@@herraghty Fair enough. But as the run is supposedly for fun, such records invite competition. But anyone can look at records from competitive runs that keep them and use those. Inclusion in park running has priority over records.
You mean keep a list...and update it regularly...of the top 1000 runners of all time, in my age group at my local parkrun?....you really aren`t helping. I don`t think you understand the issue, not at all.
Mark, the only thing causing more anger than this park run stuff is the fact we haven’t had a duck pond podium flash back in forever.
That clips on holiday 😂
As a runner in an older age bracket who travels to run different parkruns I am very disappointed to not have the age leagues for each run any longer. They helped make me competitive and added interest and motivation.
I gotta be honest, I really appreciate how progressive your channel is. Not that i'm surprised that it is--but it's just really refreshing and appreciated to hear from a guy who knows stuff who isn't such a Chad about it. We really appreciate it.
hey mark, thanks for tackling this topic in a sensible and rational way. i'm a trans woman that is trying to get more into running and does parkrun every now and then. personally i put myself down as male on parkrun's site, partly because i don't care much for contributing to those culture arguments, but also because even for something i suck at like running im too competative to not want to compare against biological males in my age range even if im at a disadvantage to those runners
anyway the main reason im leaving a comment is because interestingly enough, you can still look up who has the fastest ever times at specific parkrun courses on their site. if on a course page you hover over results and go to event histroy, you can filter that course's parkruns buy fastest male and fastest female times, so it's not like theyve even scrapped it altogether
I did my first parkrun today because of discovering your channel. Thank you. I’ll be back next Saturday
One thing that you (and all media) have missed here is the removal of age grade records. A 50/60/70 year old is unlikely to win one of their local 'proper' races but could target local age grade records. This was a huge motivation for many runners and it was extremely important to them
As a parkrun RD one of the most angering things is the complete lack of respect and communication from HQ to the local teams. We dont buy the line about records being off putting as parkrun can provide no evidence. This has been handled just as badly as the dog lead mess a few years back
Was waiting to see your opinion on this, just found out about it today. The leaderboard for me and whole system of recording everyone's times has greatly boosted my motivation to get faster every time I go and see my friend's progress too, having age category and gender difference marked down is also a bonus as I get to look at something that says first in age category 😆
I look forward to watching the video
At first I thought it was a bad decision, but I guess annoying EVERYONE and not just a single group is equality in action 😅
The problem is activists are talking equity, not equality. People assume they're the same thing because they sound similar. Equality is everyone gets to do park run. Equity is I'm offended by park run so you have to change it.
It’s nuts to bend the knee to these weirdos
@@frontierlandfrank5314 "Bending the knee" would have been letting the trans-women's times stand surely?
@@KevinJDildonikequity is equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity. I’m not sure how this reading applies to this situation.…? I guess they have achieved that…? But I don’t think the majority of people campaigning against parkrun were much bothered by the concept of equality
Very similar to communism/socialism it makes everyone equally poor.
Hi Mark. Fellow Woodley and Reading Parkrunner. I can no longer look up the age category record for any particular parkrun. I hold 3 locally and enjoy....enjoyed the challenge of getting more. Did Newbury parkrun today and possibly got the VM55 but now will never know. Competition is a driving force for good so this is a sad day for Parkrun in my opinion. David.
Interesting - didn’t realise you couldn’t look that up
Agree 100%, I think the removal of age category is more detrimental than fastest times. We all need a barometer to gage or progress
I’ve done a couple of parkruns this year as I come back from injury and one of my goals along the way back to fitness was to pick up the infamous duck pond age-cat record. The impact of removing age-cat records is that I am just less like likely to do parkruns. I’ll probably still do some but one of the motivations has gone.
If you're David Parton, then you did get the v55 record on Saturday.........I only know this because all the records are still displayed on the 5k app. Congrats!
Now imagine how demotivated you would be as a female to have your record beaten by a man claiming to be a woman
I love Parkrun and the fact it is freely available to all. For me it's a personal challenge. I'm racing myself and a few mates. I think it's wise to move away from records for all sorts of reasons x
The competition element of it was part of the fun. Changing the approach to publishing results because a few people get upset because they’re slow is mental. It should be inspiring to see how amazing people are doing, and drive you to improve. Not just being salty cause someone is better at a particular skill.
It still is competitive in my view because I’m only bothered about my time not what other people do, so simply missing a bit of data of the results does not bother me and they still publish the results anyway. However the real reason for the change is the transgender isssue.
You covered this topic perfectly Mark
Yes there is a conversation to be had on professional trans athletes.
but please can we all just turn up to run in a park on a Saturday without it turning political.
Well put Cindy, well put. Agree with all your points
😂indeed
9:00 I’m a swimmer who runs for a bit of fun and any time I go for a fast 5k time it’s at a Parkrun. For me, course records were incredibly useful as an incentive to turn up and run faster, bringing me great reward when I first went sub 17 on my birthday to get the 15-17 course record. It made me happier to see my name up there when I managed to lower my time to 16:14 in the past year. These records will be a thing I miss as they have often helped me run faster to try and get an age group record or even an overall course record. Maybe I am in a privileged position where they are a tool I can use to incentify myself but as a runner who doesn’t do many road races it was a nice form of motivation.
Probably a good thing to learn how to self-motivate.
@@listeytrue, but it was a nice way to know my progress was going on the right direction
My take as someone who does look regularly at these records (context: I've been a 28 minute 5km runner, and a 17 min 5km runner, currently sit somewhere between, and love Park Run): I use the records to work out where to go and run my sessions if I'm somewhere new - e.g. if I'm on holiday in Manchester I'd look at records to work out where I'd likely get a fast field of folks to run with, this is a relatively niche use case, and Strava would also give me this information.
My worries with the change are:
1. Records often drive news coverage of Park Run (Ciara Mageean and Andy Butchart both got good coverage recently) and therefore introduce people to Park Run - could less records mean less news coverage? Maybe.
2. Records might entice elite athletes to come down to Park Run for their sessions. Do I want to see Philly Bowden striding off into the distance and crushing my local Park Run while she trains for a 2.25 marathon? Hell yeh I do. Will she be less enticed by lack of a record? Again, maybe.
I'd tend to agree that the change won't really impact 'accessibility' - generally I find this patronising, and would rather some honesty than anything else. I'd also rather that Park Run, like every other business on the planet, maybe trials this - could you run a test with a big Park Run for 3 months - taking records off and tracking participation? Yes. Would that be hard to do? Absolutely not. If the framing was "we've tested this and it boosts participation by 20%" I'd have absolutely zero worries about the change...
Elite or semi Elite runners do park run for their sponsors for promotion on the social channels of their choice. They'll still show up. The titles about speed/records are just click bait.
But if they admit that some dork will try and sue for discrimination then no more park run.
Your argument is invalidated by the fact they still post average finish time so you can use that to compare...
The question still remains, is it okay for trans women to have there records categorised as female?
"nixon- he/him" caught me off guard 🤣
Jen , just slow was the best bit
Who's next Strava, Zwift? Ebikes and weight dopers? It's supposed to be fun. But we all love stats..well some of us do. Your points are all valid and rational but I feel that Parkrun is the worse for it all. It's a shame. Parkrun is still amazing and I will continue to support and participate..but hold no age group course records
Suggesting that the inclusion of trans people somehow ruins park run is bonkers to me. We should celebrate every person who takes part!
Yes but they need to run under their biological sex or in a separate trans category.
@@rl7012 so are you then going to separate trans women on & HRT & those who are not (Penalising those who cant get treatment because of the 20-30 year NHS waiting ), those who had surgery, those who didn't & what about intersex women ? What about LGB women ? What about race ? What about separating people by wealth (as that is surely going to be a big factor in performance). Where are are you going to stop ? And how are you going to police it ?
@@ParacolidingDanni Stop being hysterical. Categories for biological sexes and a separate one for trans if they don't want to compete under their biological sex. What is so difficult about that?
And how am I going to police it?? Seriously? You never heard of the honour system? It has been in use for thousands of years it is where people are HONEST and tick the right biological sex box. If someone lies though and they get caught, simple, they just get disqualified and booted out. But you seem to be saying that all the transgenders are liars then and won't be honest? If that is the case, then once they get caught they can jog on somewhere else. It is not hard to tick the right box. If they can't do that, then deserve to be booted out.
@@ParacolidingDanni literally. and if they're making this exclusion based on 'unfair advantage' then shouldn't cis categories be split into height, weight, age, experience etc as well?
@@benfoxhall1095But they were separated by age. Because it has a huge effect. As does biological sex.
my father is upset at his hard earned over 80s course record being expunged
hi mark, I'm a transgender man and just wanted to leave a comment commending you for how level headed this video was. these kind of videos which even offhandedly address transgender people in sports (especially from people like yourself who aren't exactly outspoken social justice warriors) often make me worried that I'm about to find out a RUclipsr I find funny/interesting/inspiring is actually a bigot. I've been enjoying your content for the past year and you've helped me feel motivated to keep up my (albeit spotty) workouts, so I was worried about the content of the video! however you approached this very well and even made some tasteful jokes in the middle, even if I don't necessarily agree with each point you made. appreciate the respect shown to all involved in this, keep up the good work.
as long as people like the jokes, i go home happy :)
As 20min-ish runner trying to make the sub 17 list was quite motivating. I think that’s what bugs me, we all Parkrun for different motivations at different stages of the journey, and it feels like they’ve stripped some objectives from a few, when I don’t think anybody was really put off by them. If that was the issue you’d stop timing the event. Now you mentioned the trans issue, it actually makes a bit more sense.
I am very happy they're notbshowing records anymore. To me, park runs should be about easy, inclusive fun and connection, not competition and complex social issues. Interestingly, i feel like cis men are more likely than cis women to be disappointed in not having those results displayed. And to all those who are, I say this: keep track of your own time. And if you go with friends who are competitive, track yourselves as a group. There's no need to impose your competitiveness on others, AT A PARKRUN! either that, or volunteer/donate so that instead of being displayed publicly, it cam be sent out to those participants who want the results.
Pausing the video pretty early on, as anyone talking about trans people on what is normally my hobby and a bit of escapism for me (running) fills me with a little fear. It does feel like a lot of people making noise about trans people at parkrun have 0 interest in running, parkrun or womens sports in general, and are only making noise as they see it as another vector of attack. Their end goal isn't to make sport better, it's to make life worse for trans people.
I just want to rock up on a Saturday with my running friends and try and beat my time from last week.
Do that as a man so
I make exactly that point. Interestingly! If you believe some “vocal” people it seems once the trans issue is resolved. There will be a lot of men still passionate about women’s rights and wondering what to tackle next. 😂. #sacasmmode
Trans women are still biologically men and should not compete against biological women. It’s not hating. It’s exactly the same reason why a full grown woman can’t identify as a 12 year old boy and win every race. If you think that should be allowed you’re being misled by the activists.
Really sensible comments. I wouldn't have known where to find the age-related records on my parkrun website. And you can still work out the course records by trawling through the event history. The course records are the only ones of any interest, as it's nice to know that the runner who flew past and lapped you did actually break the record. Think parkrun ducked the trans issue as you suggest, but the alternative was to hide behind the UK athletics gender rules and they probably decided it just wasnt worth the hassle.
And if you want to see some really obsessive behaviour, have a look at the News entries for Brockenhurst parkrun!
"Once the trans issue is resolved" ....... nice, couldn't stop laughing at that one!
Mark, I found out about, and started running at Parkrun after binge-watching you in July last year. I'm 51, 87kg now. I was 139kg in May 2022 and currently run 40k a week. So, thank you very much for the introduction and the self-help inspiration, to get myself above average, which I will be very, very soon.
As for the Parkrun changes, I think it's the first step on a downward slope. The way these things generally go, the loud voices that drown out all others just make more and more demands for change. So this is the first attempt at appeasement, and is far from the last. I wonder what will be next, finishing position? Your time? The number of participants? The same argument can be made for the removal of all of these.
The government comment lol 😂, I couldn't have said it any better, pure comedy 😂😂😂
Crazy, isn't it. Sport should be about grass-roots and participation, first and foremost.
Held my breath clicking on this video but i think you're pretty much spot on - why this is parkrun's problem to solve is beyond me.
Professional athletics is another issue, and still one that can be approached with compassion and without the hatred of innocent individual people who just want to exercise, run amd even compete as themselves.
Why do they then pander to trans runners. 0.0000001% of their participants if that and yet here we are excluding the 99.9999999% of people just to save about 10 peoples hurt feelings.
@@coldworld5 I don’t think it’s pandering I think it’s too hard for a volunteer organised event to police as ML stated. Not every professional sport has sorted the issue yet, which is way worse. Look at the mess of college swimming in the US.
@@coldworld5They're not pandering to trans people. They're pandering to rightwing shitheads taking issue over their voluntary gender registration process enabling ragistration as female to anyone. You're barking the wrong tree. I'm pretty sure there were 0 trans runners asking to take the times down.
The professional organisations have sorted it. Parkrun just refuse to apply the rules.
Mark covered this in the video. It's not about refusal, it's about not having the resource. Parkrun is run by volunteers, you can't (and shouldn't) expect volunteers to be enforcing difficult/complex rules surrounding gender in sport at a local park event. @@kevinmorice2
Thanks for this! Finally a voice of reason. The tantrums I have seen in the community seem to be from people who don’t even really want the toy, they want to be having the fight over the toy.
I would counter the idea that this move won’t make parkrun more inclusive. It’s been a fairly strong signifier that they won’t be bullied by the bullies and that it is a safe space for trans athletes. In a world where many spaces aren’t. For that reason alone, I support the decision.
8:43 is spot on .... I just came from park run today ... Elite runners usually just record their time for fun ... I got lapped by a sub 17 guy today and after recording time he kept on running and again overtook me .... Sub 20 is surely an alien world for me right now pushing towards sub 30 right now.....
All the best with your running, and good luck for sub 30 👍
Some great points here. Honestly, as a female athlete, I'd much rather transwomen are supported, welcomed and encouraged to participate in sports than exclude them from records or shunt them into a "you-don't-belong-anywhere" category just because some transwomen are faster than me. I'll happily be runner-up to a transwoman, if the alternative is trans people feeling like they shouldn't join in. And the idea of imposing limits on transwomen just to stop men from taking advantage of Parkrun welcoming trans athletes seems like blaming an innocent party. Inclusivity seems ESPECIALLY important in a volunteer-run event like Parkrun, which is about bringing the community together for a low-stakes, friendly challenge.
Exactly. Your point that slow/new runners wouldn't be put off knowing what the course record is is exactly right. Like, nothing is stopping them from looking up the world record for 5k either. Also, if you run a parkrun slowly, you ALREADY KNOW you are slow - when you get lapped! Parkrun is essentially disincentivising those faster runners who would do the lapping from attending the event, to make everyone feel less bad about themselves. It's so bizarre, and frustrating.
Plus, I don't think people feel bad when someone runs quickly, from my experience they respect the graft!
I find it hard to believe anyone who runs a parkrun in near-record time actually gives a hoot that their time no longer appears on the Parkrun website. I would think those people are treating the Parkrun as lighthearted fun training.
oh God.. I hadn't thought about those being lapped.. we've got a complete new category from which people can feel offended! Time to ban all courses with more than one lap!
@@nrjonesy It seems some runners do it only to prove they are better than others.
@@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx really? Ive lapped and been lapped and happily cheered on the faster runners and never felt they purposely lapped me to feel better about themselves.. if they do, I'd feel a bit sorry for them tbh. if it made them feel special, good luck to them.. it wouldnt ruin my day!
This whole discussion is confusing to me as a back of the pack-er. Before doing a race for the first time the stats I'm checking are the slowest times, to make sure the volunteers won't be out there an extra 30 minutes just for me. I don't care AT ALL what the front is doing.
Great video. Calm, thoughtful, and realistic, especially in comparison to many of the others on this topic. 👍🏼
I think you sum it up very well mark. I was very close to my parkrun record a few years ago, it's pushed on another 30 seconds now so probably out of my reach.
It was a fun thing with a few other runners who you see most weeks and was a big motivator for me for a time.
I appreciate I have other event and things going on but that does feel a bit like "oh they're fast so they don't need those little things to make the feel good, or motivate them"
I'm probably a bit more personally offended Vs you but I don't really care. It does leave me with the feeling though that another thing in life is being removed due to over sensitive people pressuring big companies/institutions
We don't have this in US, so who knows. I always thought park run was an unofficial event. Not a race. So you show up and run. Yes, they tell you a time. But it's not a race, not official. So I don't get why they ever published anything. Makes sense to not release results.
We do! Look up Park Run US. There are none in my location, but there are many runs.
I used to love looking at the age group course records, they inspired me to improve and train harder, even though I would never attain one of the records, very disappointed.
The problem is that this isn't Parkruns's problem, and in the current climate they have no way to do anything that won't anger a large cohort on either side.
I'm very data-focussed, so I like the records, and all the stats, and don't find it off-putting at all.
But there isn’t a “huge cohort” on either side. There is 99.9999% normal man/woman people who just want to go for a run and see their numbers progress as they improve and then there is about 200 extreme trans activists on Twitter that me pander too.
And the irony is, my trans best mate and all her group of trans mates absolutely hate these activists because it makes their lives hell.
But it won't anger a large cohort on both sides, will it?. On one side it will anger a large majority, whereas on the other side it would anger a vanishingly few, but very vocal, group of trouble-making individuals, the 'usual suspects' if you like.
@@coldworld5and for all of these 200 odd activists you say there are there’s 5x that amount who hate they exist. Parkrun were caught between a rock and a hard place. What else could they have done?
@@sjbgilmore there is always going to be bigots. There are people who hate that anyone exists.
Park run could have done nothing. Or they could have made another category or they could have needed ID if you break a record.
While Mark is clearly framing any man who speaks out for women as transphobic I like many others have daughters.
I don’t care what ‘ist’ I’m accused of being. I don’t want biological males in their changing rooms and I don’t want biological males demolishing them in the respective sports they compete in.
@@sjbgilmorewhy do you wsnt to eradicate women?
They are a volunteer organization. They don't have the time or funds for the drama.
Have you read the annual report and seen the millions they get in govt grants, i.e. our taxes? The board take around a million a year between them and the founder plus his wife around 130 to 150k a year in pay. Its only voluntary at the event level.
@@gourdbox I tend to agree with you. I started my boycott of our two local PRs this morning. As a 'geezer' with my best times well in my past, the age graded league and AG categories were good motivators. I will find other alternatives for my Saturday hard run, just as I had for the decades I ran before I started Parkruns.
Another take: They hoped if they deleted the times, they'd avoid gender drama. Instead they now they have two problems: Trans runners are taking women's times en masse, and park run look like they're covering it up, which just makes it worse.
Best thing they could have done would have been to continue to do nothing, leave everything as is and not even engage the anti-trans activists
Parkrun UK have generated all this drama and attention on itself as a result of acting to appease them. It was basically a non-issue before
@@KevinJDildonik main mess up was doing it without consulting their regulars. That looks arrogant.
You've got a great attitude Mark, very positive and very in tune. I totally agree with you, in fact I can't see any other way of looking at this. They're right to delete the records, it isn't athletics...it's not a competition, it's a communal social run.
On the surface I agree, BUT aren't we seeing too much compliance to the Minority opinion?? Too much Woke??🙇🏼♂️
@@jeremybrunger17 Mark bent right over for the woke lot.
No the results are massively popular and provide aspiration.
The only people who care about course records are the actual people who have them and who are in the sub17 and sub 20 categories (including myself). It’s pretty annoying that the competition side of parkrun has been completely dismissed because of a tiny minority 😢.
One of my friends is a regular sub 17 runner but he is a competitive runner and has been for years so he has actual events to train for.
But others have parkrun as their only run with or against other people. Its good to get a gauge of how you're progressing or not. I have a friend who was always slower than me but now regularly beats me. Neither of us are going to be affected by this thankfully , we aren't troubling record holders.
I'm a trans man. I always find it strange that trans women are the only ones brought up in discussions like this. It's so disheartening to be reminded how much some people hate us. All we want to do is work on our fitness and stay healthy, not end the world as we know it. We're just people!
It's really not that many people that hate you. Trans woman Nadia won Big Brother with something like 3.8m votes in 2004. Barely anyone cared. The issue is the objective reality that male bodies have inherent sports advantages which is why the sexes are split and now that split has basicy been removed which generally disadvantages women.
@@JCJW101 Truth be told I wasn't really focussed on that part while writing the comment. For me, it's always the violence and staggering rage and hate that always come with the discussions. It's exhausting.
Additionally, I would challenge the idea that the divide has been removed at all. What are you basing that on? In the example of park run, it's always been an honour system. The potential for people to lie has always been there. In the instance of trans people, we don't really have the numbers to create that big an impact, especially not in an event that includes so many.
@@romanjohnson8128 It's created a big enough of an impact that they've scrapped all the times altogether which is quite frankly massive.
If no one had ever pushed the narrative that trans women are women or trans men are men and sports had been kept divided by birth sex like it has for thousands of years there wouldn't have been as much pushback and rage as there is now. It's almost like the people doing that are wanting the pushback 🤷♂️
@@JCJW101 in that case, do you believe that trans men should be competing in women's sports?
It's only delusional to think that I can mark my age as 82 if I'm 62; but I could surely set some nice records. I would be ashamed if I did though....
Like several who have commented below, I too am an older runner who found it really motivating to have records of times ran by other men of my age.
Personnely, I have no problem with anyone being trans but, I think we should consider passing a law to make it illegal to misstate your biological sex. Ok I'm happy to accept a new category called something like "presented gender" but that needs to be clearly separated from biological sex.
i miss the results tbh, i like the numbers esp for the juniors. Some of the neurodiverse kids that come along are totally motivated and study the stats, its kinda their thing and helps keep them interested. i went touring today and did miss my glimpse of my age group at the new place. it gives me a feel for how popular and you can see if there are famous people who ran it even if you didnt go the same week as them.
Spot on. There was no need to remove the junior results. For children, watching their times and positions on leaderboards improve, (as junior times naturally will), could be a massive spur.
Am I missing something? The weekly results look the same to me, you can still study those if you want, see the names of everyone else on there and their age categories. All that's gone is the overall course records, which don't change that much.
@FedoraPirate course records gone, fastest 500 gone, sub-17 male gone, sub-20 female gone, age category records gone, age-graded league gone, 1st finishers gone. All these stats were studied in detail by many many runners, especially the younger athletes, many of whom take their rankings very seriously.
@@thegearboxman I used the "Attendance Records" (also gone) as a handy, alphabetical list of avaialble events.
"Search" function also removed.
@@FedoraPirate i prefer to look at how i am doing in my gender age category as a slow runner its more realistic for me and look for how i do against friends of my age and esp if i tour. i do much better against my age than i feel i do from the actual run as there are often a lot of male 20-30 year olds so it helps me motivate myself. i cant click on my age anymore.
I love your videos Mark - down to earth, really helpful, very funny! I also love Park Run - I get so much out of it and can’t say enough good things about it. I am a very average 53 year old female runner who the records will never be relevant to but I did enjoy looking at them as someone who loves a stat. However in principle I am so angry at this change, simply because as has become usual the actions of a few biological men (hope they’re really proud of their female records! How embarrassing for them) have taken away something that may have been important for many others. Shame on them. And yes I realise it is a v difficult situation for Park Run to deal with - but they shouldn’t be hiding from the true reason they have made the change.
some events I been in have the non binary category.
I agree with you 99%. 2 things. 1) you can still see the 'course record' just sort the results by fastest time on event history 2) whilst you, and I, would not be put off in the slightest by there being a course record and it being prominently displayed, I believe 100% that are is a non-trivial number of people that are that sensitive and would be put off by that, and they are the exact people that should be doing parkrun.
Progressive people often have a problem trying to cater to a minority of people, and hurting everyone in the process. It's the opposite of the conservative problem which can be more screw you if I stand to gain. Neither is exactly right. Like why can't people opt out of time tracking? Problem solved.
Understand some might fine it offputting but wouldn't that be easily fixed by just making the stats less visible, so you have to actively seek them out, rather than scrapping them altogether?
@@SimonBransfieldGarthagree with you there still have them just make them harder to find
@@SimonBransfieldGarthyou do have to actively seek them out though already.
If seeing someone's fast time would put you off attending, surely seeing an equal amount of very slow times which there are plenty should have the opposite effect. It's a nonsense argument
I’ll provide no commentary and just give you a this comment to help your algorithm. Love the channel
I’ll take that 😂
😂
It's definitely not for Parkrun to sort this out, even if it needs 'sorting'. The rules on eligibility from England Athletics (via UK Athletics via World Athletics) for competition eligibility aren't overly complex but well beyond the scope of a volunteer organisation to contemplate dealing with. It's hard enough for affiliated local clubs to do and we cop enough grief when trying to comply!
I'm an infrequent Park-runner but I really like being able to see the course records and historical results, particularly age-graded. Partly to see how I stack up against other 50-somethings and it's nice to see what others can achieve.
Removing the age graded thing is frustrating. I'm slow, can barely jog around a 5km due to muscular skeletal problems but I like to see how close I can get to average for my age even with the additional health stuff. It motivates me
Those organisations have ‘sorted it’. Then Parkrun decided that they were going to ignore those rules.
@@kevinmorice2 there's no way for Parkrun to enforce it though other than the honour system.
Without forcing people to be UKA (or whatever your local national governing body is) members.. which is another hurdle for people to cross.
@@IainThacker Change the registration system to specify sex at birth - done. Also, what is wrong with the honour system? It will be enforced by the rest of the community, as has effectively been done here.
Why has it taken Men losing their records for people to notice years of Women being pissed off about losing their records?
Also, the bigger question of how Parkrun exists outside UKA/IAAF system has always been ridiculous, and driven by their insistence that they wouldnt submit permits and Policing requests like any ‘real’ race is forced to do.
@@kevinmorice2 and how will that be enforced....are people supposed to bring birth certificates to a park run?
Also, affectively forcing trans people to out themselves just to do a fun run really isn't an option!!
I always saw parkrun as a mass participation, aimed at the general public type event. It’s probably the trans thing.
For most people nothing has changed. I did parkrun yesterday, the result email had all the usual info including placing, age category and wava. Volunteered at juniors today, again nothing has noticably changed. There are some seriously worrying things going in in the world that people should get exercised about, but this?! Thanks for the vid. 👍
You're right, Parkrun is being used by people with an agenda. Parkrun isn't a proper athletic race and shouldn't be treated as such (although France think differently so all Parkruns there are suspended). I doubt many course record holders would care when they're training for official races. My local course record holder represents his country and can't fit Parkrun in usually. Hopefully this measure nips things in the bud and we all can carry on parkrunning.
As a beginner, knowing the course record is a great way of knowing how difficult the course is although I suppose the average time will still be a good guide?
Still haven't done my first park run yet and this won't make a blind bit of difference to when I decide to finally participate but it might make it slightly more difficult to decide which one to do......
Only been running for 8 weeks but ready to have a go as soon as a little niggle in my calf disappears..... Really looking forward to it.
Thanks for another great video as always.
As a tail-plodder myself, my advice to you would be to just go and do it!
Je ne regrette rien.
Don't even worry about average times, as these are also influenced by the number of people walking rather than running.
(You can either love me or loathe me for dragging down the average finish time!)
Forget the leaders, i need to stop eating as much, my last three parkrun times have been awful. Need to get back under 30 mins again.
Then again it was a mudbath in yorkshire today!
Me and three others discussed this at the finish today, we all agreed turning up and actually finishing today was most important thing, by a long way. I really wish i could talk more people into parkrun as best thing I've doing in past year.
In Montana, my closest park run is 9ish hours (by car) away. I'd love to see a park run start up locally. When I heard about this I was worried you wouldn't be able to see your personal stats. Plenty of people could use park run to track their progress without having to spend any money on fancy kit. It sounds like that is still available. Seems like they made the best of a bad situation.
But you get cowboys hats and trucks. So don’t complain 😂
Would you love it enough to volunteer to organize it yourself?
Maybe it doesn't matter at Parkrun, but the same overall issue applies to other events and is only becoming more palpable over time. Regardless of how fast or slow I am, if I'm paying $100+ to enter a race, I don't want anyone but biological women in my division when the results are posted. Races would probably need to confirm biological sex at packet pickup in the future if they cared about reality, but they will probably just carry on feeding into the trans hysteria. (I don't think your sex on any official I.D. should contradict what you were at birth, so that would theoretically be sufficient to prove your sex, but now you can change your I.D., too.)
I wish ppl would understand that even just turning up and getting round a 5km is better than 99% of the population (yes I pulled that number out my ass) but you see my point.
I am curious to know the trans participation rate now that records are not public.
Does that dissuade mtf people competing? Or do they continue to participate?
Should onus not be on how you register? Trans issue is not really an issue if people registered correctly. There should be a distinction made between trans males, trans females, cis-male, cis-female. I think the records are a good thing to measure your progress.
Yeah but the problem there is, who decides who has registered "correctly"? That would be a huge can of worms for Parkrun. Like what actually IS the distinction between trans and cis? If all it comes down to is identity, then that's literally impossible to moderate. A person can choose to identify as anything they want, at any time they want, regardless of how they've lived their life up to that point.
I think this is actually a pretty solid take; hit all the important points with humanity. Well said.
And removing the records but leaving the full results up also seems like a fair compromise for a casual event not intended as serious competition. As a (slow) woman, there is no way I would take part if I had to get sex-tested for an event. As for the organisers, I'm pretty sure none of them wants to get involved in that kind of thing either.
Must admit, I had a hard time just finding the results (let alone the records) when I was hunting for an event near me - I was particularly interested in slowest time, as much more relevant to me...
The removal of age category matters because it's been there for 19 years of parkrun and no good / legitimate reason has been given for their removal. As you say, it doesn't really put people off. On the contrary the records motivate far more people to strive to improve, or become, let's say, `Above Average'. Also, still on today's parkrun, results are listed in finishing order so if anyone is demotivated by comparison, they still get an email saying they were 248th out of 251 in a time way slower than the average for that course. Totally pointless and counter-productive move from parkrun. That's if you believe their reasons which clearly you, us and anyone with an ounce of perception do not.
My PB is around the 20 min mark. As I get better I'm sure I'll get faster, and always enjoyed seeing what the top performers could do on any given course. I drew inspiration from it and felt like it gave me something specific to work towards on any given course. So it was a feature I liked. Not broken up about it, but it certainly is a mild inconvenience.
Non competitive running. It should be about your own time not what anyone else is getting. It's nice to have the times to map your own progress and goals but that should be all it is.
I think the argument that "how can Parkrun be expected to verify gender?" is a little bit of a strawman.
I don't think the people who mind trans inclusion are actually suggesting that everyone's gender should be verified before they run. I *think* most of them probably just want Parkrun's official position to be that transwomen shouldn't register as women, so that whenever the fastest woman looks a bit androgynous they can kick up a stink and accuse them of cheating.
Been heavily involved in parkrun for years, and in fact was Run Director this morning at my local event. I love parkrun, even though I can't even run anymore, and I always will. But I love it a little less now. The stats they got rid of were frequently inspiring and informing. A bad decision, under admittedly awkward circumstances
What should Parkrun have done?
As a trans person who does occasional park runs, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s a respectful and fair conversation to be had about trans athletes (which is largely over-politicised sadly), but park run isn’t the place for it. The spirit of park run is, and has always been, to get anyone and everyone out running/jogging/walking for the love of it. Each park run can maintain its competitive element for that week’s run as you’re still going to have winners, but course records and gender stats seem fairly irrelevant overall for this kind of event
Not irrelevant at all sunshine.
@@rl7012 fraid so, sweet-pea
@@finnrothery2928 What is irrelevant is your deluded comment son.
@@rl7012delusional that the inclusive, community driven spirit of park run is more important than shouting about course records? Interesting (and slightly depressing) take, but you do you I guess
@@finnrothery2928 How is it inclusive to bully and cheat biological women?
I think this has been coming for a while for multiple reasons, not just the headline one. There is an issue with toxic and unpleasant behaviour from some of the participants, I have seen and experienced this first hand at the front of the field, as has my partner a little further back. Whilst some people will just be a-holes (like making it difficult for women to pass), others are so focused on the competition, nobody else matters (including other park users). I hope that removal of the records (which I have a few of) will help to make parkrun less competitive, and long term be less attractive to some of the toxic participants who won't change. We actively avoid some venues because the behaviour of some participants make it unpleasant, I hate to think what it must be like for other participants. I personally don't think this is the end of the changes, I expect that for parkrun to be seen as a non competitive, fully inclusive public health event, published results may not in future show age or gender, because they are not needed to achieve parkrun's objectives.
This is a really important point. I have witnessed some unpleasant behaviour which definitely has put me off participating in Parkrun. Removing the course records (which probably shouldn't have been published in the first place) is absolutely consistent with clarifying that it is NOT A RACE, something which lots of people seem to be confused about. If you want to test yourself against other people and have your achievement recorded for posterity, then enter a RACE. There is no shortage of them out there.
I'm one of those trans athletes. And honestly? The absolute shit that has been levelled at me. I've been sent death threats, called all kinds of names, you name it. The number of trans athletes this concerns is probably under 10. Any man can change their profile and claim a female title; that's not new. A genuinely trans runner, faces a bigger problem in actually staying fast. When you're trans, you take hormones. Like I do. EA wants to see blood test results before they will recategorise you. And what does HRT do to you? Robs you of muscle mass. I was a 22 minute runner, now I'm a 27/28 minute runner, because of the mass I have lost. I train no different (well, adaptations because of surgery aside) but it's actually slowed me down, not gained me anything, and certainly not given me access to any course records. I'd like if everyone could actually take this on board, and get to the bottom of those cheating, to get a record for running round a god damned field, with no entry fee or recognition other than "it's roughly 5k long, Susan measured it three years ago and the turn around cone goes where that lump of grass is over there. Ish." - there are bigger things to worry about, and I'd quite like to not be told to kill myself by strangers on the internet because I now have boobs.
well they have had to change the rules because of them and in other sports. so why isn't it happing the other way around. why aren't biological women dominating men's categories.
The obvious point for me is that park run does not have the resources to verify records. And any steps to so would be way to over the top.
Its a fun run that's getting all a bit too serious.
Its a shame the records can't stand - but if there is no integrity to them - they are pointless anyway!
“Run across a muddy field then go for coffee and cake” - what a great summary of what parkrun is! Love it!
Basically, there is your beer mile time, Olympic medals, and all the rest is just jogging around.
I think they might actually be harming those people they say they are protecting. Those fatter, older parkrunners who are genuinely using comparison with others in a similar age range as motivation and target setting. It won't stop those people improving, but like many things in life it might change the way they see it or look at it. Perspective is everything. More information available is usually better, even if you don't use it, because you can genuinely use it to improve.
Wow, you basically nailed it. Impressive take.
I'm just completely envious of people that HAVE parkruns around them. The nearest to me is 90 minutes away, here in the states near Philly. I don't think the records would mean a damn thing to me, though I'm proud of my time as an old guy. What's more important by 100 fold is if I could get my wife and my family to participate in the parkruns. I am sorry there are trans athletes and people who hate trans athletes that want to make this a big issue. Parkrun is wonderful and I just hope they continue and thrive and spread.
Hope you get one soon. Was curious why it's not bigger in the US, assumed there's a local alternative.
@@dombaker8790 thanks, me too.
I really enjoyed Park run last year, and seeing my stats (and I'm pretty slow lol) as well as other people's was interesting and motivating for me, this is such a shitty change
As a huge fan of Parkrun, I just wish they had been honest about the reasons behind it all. I now don't buy the idea about people being upset if they see a course record. I actually checked the average attendance at my local parkrun in the weeks before the change and the weeks after it. The difference - nothing! Thanks again Mark (Cindy?) though for another great video!
As a trans woman who (to my genuine surprise) finished first female back in Sept 22, I did change to no gender as a mark of respect - having discovered it was then actually possible as I did it at a pretty big Parkrun at the age of 48(!) as a keen but hobby runner - I did catch a slow day but felt uneasy about it.
I'd encourage other trans women to register the same way, however, I would understand the reluctance thanks to how we are stigmatised so badly in the right wing media!
There is no stigma around doing the right thing. Thank you for acknowledging the issue and changing categories. Happy running!
Tbf you did not finish as first female. Thanks for not cheating.
@@oliveranthony-sparholt5113 Comprehension problems?
Spot on Mark. If serious runners are that keen on racing and beating Parkrun records, they really should go and join a running club.
easy said, until you finally place on a podium and it motivates you to bea those 30 seconds. With your attitude you can pull it through all the way to the olympics and the world records. Its an internal pride of 100s maybe 1000s of people that got token away by some transgender people that had to ruin the party. Thats how my competitive spirit thinks of it. Marc stood on a podium once he should know that is a pride he can carry internally for years to come. It has nothing to do with world records but a feeling of accomplishment in a personal journey. transpeople need their own section in the record books and it shouldnt be put on the burden of the local volunteers and cheaters should be let out of the books. If you are so hard in denial of your birth gender that you make it a personal issue and change i dont mind. BUt if you make it a public issue posing it on all others in all parts of life i do mind and it pisses me off. Its almost like a southpark kind of cynism i feel wiht this whole ordeal.
Idk my parkrun record was kinda important to me, because I never did very well in proper races
Exactly Mark sums it up , I Marshalled here in Cornwall this Saturday it rained for most of the run , so impressed to see people putting in the effort , getting it done in the rain
Mark Lewis being the voice of reason. Yet again. Totally agree with your views on this.
Thanks for the video Mark, I wasn't aware ParkRun had removed the records. I'm running my first ParkRun soon and was genuinely curious not really to see the fastest or slowest times, but to see where I may come among people in my age range. I guess in the fullness of time I'd have liked to know that for my age and stage I was at least above average; or strive eventually to be so. The course average will have to do then I guess. Anyhow, thanks for the video, helps a lot!
Very reasonable points to a tricky subject. I very much liked you point about angry men on forums "protecting" women. I can't wait for them all to get together and support womens sports (or not!)
Thanks for adding your voice to this particular conversation. Both entertaining and thoughtful as always.
If Parkrun isn't a race and times aren't important, why are the results posted on the Power of 10 and Run Britain?
They might not be in the future. I for one would be disappointed to see them go. It’s a run not a race.
I have never understood this because of the lack of verification of data. Maybe this will make them think...
I just compare my time with my previous runs, if I'm improving good if not maybe it was a slow day or I'm consistent. I'll never achieve the sub 20 mins for a park run, I'm just not that quick or dedicated to achieving those times. I admire anyone who does achieve those milestones. So long as they keep a record of my times I'm good
The fact that it was timed and had results is what motivated me to do it. Now there’s no motivation to do it. I can just run the route any day at any time. Doing it on Saturday at 8AM no longer makes any difference.
It's still timed and still has results.
@@MarkLewisfitness When I look at the website for my home park run, the last results showing are from November last year.
Spot on there! This is FREE weekly timed event every Saturday, my own records are still there, I never was interested in who was fastest just average time which gives indication on how tough it is and that was my aim to be above average doing parkrun tourism
Gonna be looking out for some decent times from Cindy in the future! Why is it usually people that are not actually involved in these types of things become the most outspoken? Can't have anything nice these days. Nixon should have been good/boy ;)
As a club runner and a run director at my local Parkrun I don’t actually care or mind the change. Although if they are trying to get the message across that parkrun isn’t a race. Then why do parkrun results go on power of 10?
See how he made fair points to most sides without throwing anyone group under the bus??? It’s possible to have tough discussion without demeaning, thank you for displaying this for folx. 🙏🏾🏳️⚧️
Parkrun is not broken and did not need fixing. Keep everything as it was but have the categories for BIOLOGICAL sex and that will stop the attention seeking cheaters.
It won't. I'm a hairy arsed bloke and there's nothing to stop me clicking the 'Female' box. Putting the 'trans' issue aside, that's what some attention seeking men have been doing. Short of DNA testing every finisher there's no way to enforce it. It's just idiots spoiling it for the many, and that's nothing to do with 'wokery'.
@@jacklurcher5813 Yes there is. You use the same system people have used for thousands of years. Honesty. You ask people to be honest and tick a box of either male, female or trans. If they lie and get caught, then they get disqualified and booted out. Simple.
My wife just fell out with me about this issue. I like recording my times because I want to get faster. She is put off from entering because she's worried fast people will look at her time and laugh. Someone in all sport has to come first, and someone has to come last. Surely everyone in between (including the person who came last and first) is inspired by knowing where they are? The 20 min times are inspired to go faster, the 40 min time has motivation to go faster.
No. Some people feel shame when they see their times and shame is the most toxic emotion when it comes to inclusivity. You feeling that surely everyone must feel the same as you do doesn’t make you correct.
@@ellieban people who want to do parkrun without worrying about the time should absolutely be encouraged. If you just want to get around the course every week, then absolutely fine and good for you. I've got medals for participating in other events - I didn't win anything, I just took part. But if you feel shame when you see your time, then doesn't that mean you want to improve it?
I have a friend who does parkrun every week and just doesn’t scan. Takes his barcode at the end, drops it in the bucket, and it’s marked as “unknown”. All the fun of parkrun, with nothing recorded. Could be a way for her to get involved without being worried about people seeing her time.
@@ellieban If the community is welcoming, there should be no feel of shame & if you feel ashamed about your times, simply don't record any. To me that sort of emotion is something that needs to be solved at the root cause, not by getting rid of times/measurement and only treating the symptom.
When kids in school feel ashamed because they get bad grades, does that mean we should get rid of grades? Same when it comes to the workplace and measure performance? Or might it be a better solution to try to work on the reason why people feel a lack of self-worth and make them realise, that everybody had different strengths & weaknesses and we should accept these and measure ourselves with our version of yesterday/last week/last month and improve, if we really want to compare us?
The weekly leaderboards are still there, it’s just the course records that are gone